Muslim/Arab Culture and Narcissism?

[SteveMetch]

The Definition of Narcissism

A pattern of traits and behaviors which signify infatuation and obsession with one's self to the exclusion of all others and the egotistic and ruthless pursuit of one's gratification, dominance and ambition.

Narcissism is named after the ancient Greek myth of Narcissus who was a handsome Greek youth who rejected the desperate advances of the nymph Echo. In punishment of his cruelty, he was doomed to fall in love with his own reflection in a pool of water. Unable to consummate his love, he pined away and changed into the flower that bears his name to this very day.

An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met:

1.Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

2.Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion

3.Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)

4.Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation -or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).

5.Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations

6.Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends

7.Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others

8.Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her

9.Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

[andak01]

A culture that even frowns on self portraits and portraits, narcissistic? Interesting.


Originally posted by SteveMetch
An all-pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration or adulation and lack of empathy, usually beginning by early adulthood and present in various contexts. Five (or more) of the following criteria must be met:

Of course we don't get the benefit of knowing whose prestated criteria this is.


1.Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

And Muhammad is a slave and messenger of Allah. You must be speaking of yourself here.


2.Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion

The New World Order, Operation Infinite Justice, the MOAB Bomb, the Preemptive Strike (actually that one rings of poor sexual performance).


3.Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions)

YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. NOBODY HAS SUPERIORITY OVER OTHER EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.
- Muhammad (SAW) from the Last Sermon


4.Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation -or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply).

He will not enter Paradise, he whose neighbour is not secure from his wrongful conduct.
- Muhammad (SAW)

To remove something harmful from the road is charity.
- Muhammad (SAW)


5.Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favorable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations

Show mercy to people on earth so that Allah will have mercy on you in heaven.
- Muhammad (SAW)


6.Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends

He is not a perfect believer, who goes to bed full and knows that his neighbour is hungry.
- Muhammad (SAW)


7.Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others.

None amongst you believes truly till one likes for his brother that which he loves for himself.
- Muhammad (SAW)


8.Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her.

Q: What are the best deeds in the eyes of Allah?
A: Gentle manners, modesty and patience.
- Muhammad (SAW)



9.Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted.

Q: What will save me from sins?
A: Tears, humility and illness.

Q: What are the worst evils in the eyes of Allah?
A: Hot temper and miserliness.
- Muhammad (SAW)

[Revkha]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by andak01

YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. NOBODY HAS SUPERIORITY OVER OTHER EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.
- Muhammad (SAW) from the Last Sermon[QUOTE]

Is this a doctrine of Islam, part of Islamic law?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. NOBODY HAS SUPERIORITY OVER OTHER EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.
- Muhammad (SAW) from the Last Sermon

He will not enter Paradise, he whose neighbour is not secure from his wrongful conduct.
- Muhammad (SAW)

To remove something harmful from the road is charity.
- Muhammad (SAW)

Show mercy to people on earth so that Allah will have mercy on you in heaven.
- Muhammad (SAW)

He is not a perfect believer, who goes to bed full and knows that his neighbour is hungry.
- Muhammad (SAW)

None amongst you believes truly till one likes for his brother that which he loves for himself.
- Muhammad (SAW)

Q: What are the best deeds in the eyes of Allah?
A: Gentle manners, modesty and patience.
- Muhammad (SAW)

Q: What will save me from sins?
A: Tears, humility and illness.

Q: What are the worst evils in the eyes of Allah?
A: Hot temper and miserliness.
- Muhammad (SAW) [/B]
Many books have nice sayings in them, but if the readers of such books do not accompany those words with common sense and good behavior, we may wind up with a situation like.....well....say, modern Islam.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Revkha
[QUOTE]Originally posted by andak01

YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. NOBODY HAS SUPERIORITY OVER OTHER EXCEPT BY PIETY AND GOOD ACTION.
- Muhammad (SAW) from the Last Sermon[QUOTE]

Is this a doctrine of Islam, part of Islamic law?

It's even higher than that, Islamic law is based on several sources, but next to the Qur'an itself, the words of Muhammad (SAW) collected in Hadith are the most important source.

The Qur'an itself says:

4:1
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

There is no race or social class in Islam. Neither is there nationalism. Of course, I don't think that nationalism was a concept that Jesus (SAW) went on about either. "The flesh is weak."

[Batman]

Originally posted by andak01
It's even higher than that, Islamic law is based on several sources, but next to the Qur'an itself, the words of Muhammad (SAW) collected in Hadith are the most important source.

The Qur'an itself says:

4:1
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you.

There is no race or social class in Islam. Neither is there nationalism. Of course, I don't think that nationalism was a concept that Jesus (SAW) went on about either. "The flesh is weak."

I think that the Koran probably has the passages that could be interpreted more humanely than is being done by some. the problem is in the way the actual lives are being experienced. Does not sound very nice or loving.
Does sound MALE dominated and of course the women support this style as they know no other choice.

I am sorry to have to say this to you, as I think you do idealize Islam and maybe there are some very good families in Islam and yours is one of them. But on the whole and as far as so many places in the world, I am deeply disturbed by the brutality shown by Islamic faith believers and lack of rights of Islamic women as well as the 4 wives situation.

When you quote the Koran it's ok, but if these are just words and the Islamic people do not actually experience the meanings of these words and yet they are NOT allowed to express any disagreement with their experience than HOW is anyone going to bring out the real benefit of the Koran?

There has to be an ability for women to criticize their experiences as well as anyone else who is Islamic. There has to be a SAFE way to do this. Does this exist????

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Batman
I think that the Koran probably has the passages that could be interpreted more humanely than is being done by some. the problem is in the way the actual lives are being experienced. Does not sound very nice or loving.
Does sound MALE dominated and of course the women support this style as they know no other choice.

I am sorry to have to say this to you, as I think you do idealize Islam and maybe there are some very good families in Islam and yours is one of them. But on the whole and as far as so many places in the world, I am deeply disturbed by the brutality shown by Islamic faith believers and lack of rights of Islamic women as well as the 4 wives situation.

When you quote the Koran it's ok, but if these are just words and the Islamic people do not actually experience the meanings of these words and yet they are NOT allowed to express any disagreement with their experience than HOW is anyone going to bring out the real benefit of the Koran?

There has to be an ability for women to criticize their experiences as well as anyone else who is Islamic. There has to be a SAFE way to do this. Does this exist????
This is very well put.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Batman
I think that the Koran probably has the passages that could be interpreted more humanely than is being done by some. the problem is in the way the actual lives are being experienced. Does not sound very nice or loving.
Does sound MALE dominated and of course the women support this style as they know no other choice.

I suppose that depends upon whether your experience comes from reading and listening to the media or from actually traveling to Muslim nations and living with Muslims. I experienced that both before and after my conversion. I was never treated poorly as a Christian. My wife is very aware of her choices. She is an intelligent woman with a western education. She chooses to maintain her Muslim lifestyle as do many American women I have met who came to Islam by choice. It's very insulting to Arab women to imply that they don't have any control over their lives. In some cases they are oppressed, but I notice we have women's shelters and spousal abuse in this country as well.


I am sorry to have to say this to you, as I think you do idealize Islam and maybe there are some very good families in Islam and yours is one of them. But on the whole and as far as so many places in the world, I am deeply disturbed by the brutality shown by Islamic faith believers and lack of rights of Islamic women as well as the 4 wives situation.

Then perhaps you would listen to the pleas of RAWA when they say that women are no more secure under the present regiem than they were under the Taliban.


When you quote the Koran it's ok, but if these are just words and the Islamic people do not actually experience the meanings of these words and yet they are NOT allowed to express any disagreement with their experience than HOW is anyone going to bring out the real benefit of the Koran?

I suppose that during the worst excesses of the Spanish Inquisition, there were some who still held to a peaceful view of Christianity as expressed by Prophet Jesus (SAW). Those voices were drowned for the timebeing. Still, that message rings forth, and still Christians in some places treat others like animals and do acts of violence. That there is one who gets it or one hundred million, doesn't void the truth of the message.


There has to be an ability for women to criticize their experiences as well as anyone else who is Islamic. There has to be a SAFE way to do this. Does this exist????

The example of Aisha [RAA] was of an intelligent, respected woman who did just that. There is no excuse for denying a woman an education.

[Batman]

Originally posted by andak01
I suppose that depends upon whether your experience comes from reading and listening to the media or from actually traveling to Muslim nations and living with Muslims. I experienced that both before and after my conversion. I was never treated poorly as a Christian. My wife is very aware of her choices. She is an intelligent woman with a western education. She chooses to maintain her Muslim lifestyle as do many American women I have met who came to Islam by choice. It's very insulting to Arab women to imply that they don't have any control over their lives. In some cases they are oppressed, but I notice we have women's shelters and spousal abuse in this country as well.



Then perhaps you would listen to the pleas of RAWA when they say that women are no more secure under the present regiem than they were under the Taliban.



I suppose that during the worst excesses of the Spanish Inquisition, there were some who still held to a peaceful view of Christianity as expressed by Prophet Jesus (SAW). Those voices were drowned for the timebeing. Still, that message rings forth, and still Christians in some places treat others like animals and do acts of violence. That there is one who gets it or one hundred million, doesn't void the truth of the message.



The example of Aisha [RAA] was of an intelligent, respected woman who did just that. There is no excuse for denying a woman an education.

You have focused mostly on other ERAS in the DARK AGES and before by bringing in past abuses of christianity and AISHA.

It is nice to go back, but lets be real. Educated Moslem women cannot make their free choices about how many women their husband will marry, but are forced to marry only 1 moslem man and the man can have 4 women, and marry non moslem women.

Also, Education without practical ACTION on behalf of oneself is worse than ignorance. It can create very frustrated women who are not even ignorant enough to silence their misery. Yeah, it's nice for a while to be under the husband's rule and mercy, but lets be real, woman's nature is not submissive as Moslem culture prefers to believe. Women want to feel appreciated, but not necessarily dominated.

Why would your wife want to share you with other women is beyond me.

How about explaining that?

[andak01]

Originally posted by Batman
It is nice to go back, but lets be real. Educated Moslem women cannot make their free choices about how many women their husband will marry, but are forced to marry only 1 moslem man and the man can have 4 women, and marry non moslem women.

The wife must approve any subsequent marriage. As for marrying non-muslem women, this is similar to the stipulation that a Jewish man MUST marry a Jewish man, but a Jewish woman can marry a non Jew. I don't hear anyone complaning about that one. And it is certainly the right of Jews to be this way.


Also, Education without practical ACTION on behalf of oneself is worse than ignorance. It can create very frustrated women who are not even ignorant enough to silence their misery.

Do you assume that all Muslim women live in misery???


Yeah, it's nice for a while to be under the husband's rule and mercy, but lets be real, woman's nature is not submissive as Moslem culture prefers to believe. Women want to feel appreciated, but not necessarily dominated.


Why would your wife want to share you with other women is beyond me.

How about explaining that?

I don't know. It would have to be her choice in any case. For me to force her into an arrangement against her will would be oppressive. It would break the bounds of Islam and the bounds of common sense.

If all the soldiers whose babies refer to their unknown fathers as "Joe" had taken permanent responsibility for their deeds instead of leaving the mothers in prostitution and without other means of support, the world might be a better place. However, under normal circumstances, polygamy, even if it were legal is almost impossible to practice in an equitable fashion (the only fashion allowed in Islam). Most Muslims I have spoken to believe that it is sort of a conundrum, a permission which can almost never be done. I would be interested to know if most Mormons feel the same way.

[Batman]

Originally posted by andak01
The wife must approve any subsequent marriage. As for marrying non-muslem women, this is similar to the stipulation that a Jewish man MUST marry a Jewish man, but a Jewish woman can marry a non Jew. I don't hear anyone complaning about that one. And it is certainly the right of Jews to be this way.
I think you mean that a JEWISH MAN MUST MARRY A JEWISH WOMAN. BUT ACTUALLY BOTH JEWISH MEN AND WOMEN MUST MARRY JEWISH PEOPLE OF THE OPPOSITE SEX.


Originally posted by andak01
Do you assume that all Muslim women live in misery???[/B]

I assume that the happiness of a child like state for the Muslim woman robbed of her independence by herself and her society's rules is a short lived happiness. Unless she has a saint for a husband she may live under a level of stress that is unfair and yet inescapable. Sex may be great for a while when the woman is submissive and pliant and men may feel empowered and manly in such conditions, but this is a facade for the deeper and higher levels humanity can offer.



Originally posted by andak01
I don't know. It would have to be her choice in any case.
For me to force her into an arrangement against her will would be oppressive. It would break the bounds of Islam and the bounds of common sense.???[/B]
I feel that if you do not know why your wife would choose to have other women share her husband than it is exactly the point that disturbs me very much. Lack of communication and interest in the reasons for such choices may be indicative of a certain detachement and a power game that is the basis for keeping certain elements in and yet both parties, society pay for this in the long run.

Originally posted by andak01
If all the soldiers whose babies refer to their unknown fathers as "Joe" had taken permanent responsibility for their deeds instead of leaving the mothers in prostitution and without other means of support, the world might be a better place. However, under normal circumstances, polygamy, even if it were legal is almost impossible to practice in an equitable fashion (the only fashion allowed in Islam). Most Muslims I have spoken to believe that it is sort of a conundrum, a permission which can almost never be done. I would be interested to know if most Mormons feel the same way. [/B]

[ayesha]

and of course the women support this style as they know no other choice

Excuse me? So we are brainwashed and our opinions are worthless because we have been conditioned?? Why thank you Sir for the news flash. Or do you mean we are oppressed? Oppressed by what exactly? Our regimes? Yes. Our Deen? NO.


lack of rights of Islamic women as well as the 4 wives situation.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=40761#post40761


There has to be an ability for women to criticize their experiences as well as anyone else who is Islamic. There has to be a SAFE way to do this. Does this exist????

You mean their experiences of unIslamic misconduct. Whether there is a safe way to do this or not is not the fault of Islam but of the Arab dictators' regimes.

[Simon]

I think people should respond to vile individuals like andak after reading his rape-apologizing comments below and the context in which they were made. Also, the able support he received in his endeavors from other muslims like reason and ilya furman.


I had posted various articles/links where the Koran/allah/mohammad explicitly justify rape. These are posted below.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=2822&pagenumber=1


http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/more.html

O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou has paid their cowers; and those whom they right hand possesses out of the captives of war whom Allah has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated with thee; and any believing woman who gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her - this only for thee, and not for the believers [at large]; We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess - in order that there should be no diff~culty for thee. And Allah is Oft Forgiving, Most Merciful (Surat Al-Ahzab 33:50).

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/mohwar3.html

Mohammed attacked the Banu-L-Mustaliq because of their wealth. In a surprise raid, the Muslims drove them to the Sea. They slaughtered many members of the Banu-N-Mustaliq Tribe and looted away a booty of 2000 Camels, 5000 Sheep and 500 Women! 500 women were captured screaming and crying after they had watched their husbands and sons being slaughtered. The most beautiful captive was Juwayriyya, daughter of the chief of the Banu-L-Mustaliq. Mohammed snatched her to satisfy his own animal lust. The captured women were supposed to be returned by the Muslims upon payment of a ransom. But the night after the battle itself, Mohammed and his army raped each and every one of them. One of the men Abu Sa'id Khudri of Mohammed's army reported :

[b] "We were lusting after women and chastity had become too hard for us, but we wanted to get the ransom money for our prisoners. So we wanted to use the "Azl" (Coitus Interruptus- where the man withdraws before ejaculating)...We asked the Prophet about it and he said: "You are not under any obligation to stop yourselves from doing it like that.." Later on the women and children were given for ransom to their envoys. They all went away to their country and not One wanted to stay although they had the choice.."


Note that andak justified mohammads’ conduct or raping these women. Mohammad, the rapist, claimed divine sanction for his rape.

Again, let me stress, andak justified this rape of innocent women as being actually “merciful.”


Here’s that proof. From andak himself.



Alright, I'm really trying to see this. Gang-Rape??? I have read the verses before. If a conquering army doesn't take the war widows into their homes, the alternative is prostitution for these women. At least that was the case in the 7th century and not that much has changed. In Afghanistan as in Iraq, there is no doubt a huge demand from the soldiers for women. As elsewhere, this demand will be satisfied from the local populous. Imagine if those soldiers were forced to actually provide for their lovers indefinitly.


Note clearly that he states “he has read these verses before. And does not doubt their veracity. He then actually justified these actions.

Andak calls these rapist lovers. I guess that is acceptable in Islam.


And here’s the crux of andak’s islam. The all-justification for any act sanctioned in the unholy koran.

If a conquering army doesn't take the war widows into their homes,

Rape is called “taking the widows into their homes.

We all hear about how merciful this rapine allah and mohammad are, don’t we?

What would a truly merciful god have done??

He would have instructed his followers to provide the humanitarian assistance needed without expecting material benefits in return. That would be the merciful thing to do.

BUT, THAT IS NOT WHAT THE RAPE-APPROVING ALLAH AND MOHAMMAD DO and WHAT ANDAK JUSTIFIES.

TO these vile individuals/entities, RAPE IS THE MERCIFUL THING.


Please bear these aspects of the koran and their rape and gang-rape justification in mind when evaluating anything that the so-called peaceful and moderate andak says.

Thank you.