The Roadmap

[Mediocrates]

Draft law of Middle East roadmap

Gulf News online edition 17 April 2003

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=84540

[With thanks to www.mideastweb.org ]

[IMRA: As advertised, the roadmap in its current form requires:

+ Palestinians to make declarations, photo opportunities as it "starts"
various activities but doesn't actually require them to achieve anything

+ Israel to immediately stop defending itself (all terrorists are
"civilians" and Israel is not to attack "civilians" ) and the Government of
Israel is not supposed to publish any material regarding Palestinian
violations ("incitement against Palestinians").
As for supervision:

+ The Quartet decides if the Palestinians are complying - and to make sure
that the fix is in, they are to judge based on "taking into account
performance of both parties". So if the Palestinians murder Israelis and
decline to dismantle the terror infrastructure while an Israeli extends his
patio in Ramat Eshkol in eastern Jerusalem the Quartet can rule that both
sides have been equally in noncompliance/compliance and move on to the next
stage.
The draft also sets that the Palestinian state will be an independent
state - something President Bush never explicitly said.]

Phase I
Ending terror and violence, normalising Palestinian life and building
Palestinian institutions.
Present to May 2003
In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional
cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action
should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel.

* Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the
Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through
restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinian
undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood,
including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open
elections upon the basis of those measures.

* Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalise Palestinian life.
Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000,
and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time.

* Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the
Mitchell report.

* At the outset of Phase I, the Palestinian leadership issues
unequivocal statement reiterating Israel's right to exist in peace and
security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end
armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All
official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.

* Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its
commitments to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign
Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as
expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence
against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end
incitement against Palestinians.
Security

* Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism,
and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain
individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis
anywhere.

* Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus
begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting
all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and
infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and
consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and
corruption.

* Israel takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations,
attack on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and
property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction;
destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other
measures specified in the Tenet Work Plan.

* Relying on existing mechanisms and on-the-ground resources, Quartet
representatives begin informal monitoring, and consult with the parties on
establishment of a formal monitoring mechanism and its implementation.

* Implementation, as previously agreed, of U.S. rebuilding, training
and resumed security cooperation plan in collaboration with outside
oversight board (U.S., Egypt, Jordan). Quartet support for efforts to
achieve a lasting, comprehensive ceasefire.

* All Palestinian security organisations are consolidated into three
services reporting to an empowered Interior Minister.

* Restructured/retained Palestinian security forces and IDF
counterparts progressively resume security cooperation and other
undertakings in implementation of the Tenet work plan, including regular
senior-level meetings, with the participation of U.S. security officials.

* Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms
of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror.

* All donors providing budgetary support for the Palestinians channel
these funds through the Palestinian Ministry of Finance's Single Treasury
Account.

* As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws
progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000, and the two
sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000.
Palestinian security forces redeploys to areas vacated by IDF.
Palestinian Institution-Building

* Immediate action on credible process to produce draft constitution
for Palestinian statehood. As rapidly as possible, constitutional committee
circulates draft Palestinian constitution, based upon strong parliamentary
democracy and cabinet with empowered prime minister, for public
comment/debate. Constitutional building proposes draft document for
submission after elections for approval by appropriate Palestinian
institutions.

* Appointment of interim prime minister or cabinet with empowered
executive authority/decision-making body.

* GOI fully facilitates travel of Palestinian officials for PLC and
Cabinet sessions, internationally supervised security retraining, electoral
and other reform activity, and other supportive measures related to the
reform efforts.

* Continued appointment of Palestinian ministers empowered to
undertake fundamental reform. Completion of further steps to achieve genuine
separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for
this purpose.

* Establishment of independent Palestinian election commission. PLC
reviews and revises elections law.

* Palestinian performance on judicial, administrative and economic
benchmarks, as established by the International Task Force on Palestinian
Reform.

* As early as possible, and based upon the above measures and in the
context of open debate and transparent candidate selection/electoral
campaign based on a free, multi-party process, Palestinians hold free, open,
and fair elections.

* GOI facilitates Task Force election assistance, registration of
voters, movement of candidates and voting officials. Support for NGOs
involved in the election process.

* GOI reopens Palestinian Chamber of Commerce and other closed
Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem based on a commitment that these
institutions operate strictly in accordance with prior agreements between
the parties.
Humanitarian Response

* Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel
and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report
to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews, and easing restrictions
on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered
access of international and humanitarian personnel.

* AHLC reviews the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic
development in the West Bank and Gaza and launches a major donor assistance
effort, including to the reform effort.

* GOI and PA continue revenue clearance process and transfer of funds,
including areas, in accordance with agreed, transparent monitoring
mechanism.
Civil Society

* Continued donor support, including increased funding through
PVOs/NGOs, for people to people programmes, private sector development, and
civil society initiatives.
Colonies

* GOI immediately dismantles colony outposts erected since March 2001.

* Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all colony activity
(including natural growth of colonies).

[Mediocrates]

Phase II

Transition
June 2003-December 2003
In the second phase, efforts are focused on the option of creating an
independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and attributes of
sovereignty, based on the new constitution, as a way-station to a permanent
status settlement.

As has been noted, this goal can be achieved when the Palestinian
people have a leadership acting decisively against terror, willing and able
to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty.
With such a leadership, reformed civil institutions and security
structures, the Palestinians will have the active support of the Quartet
and the broader international community in establishing an independent,
viable, state.

Progress into Phase II will be based upon the consensus judgment of
the Quartet of whether conditions are appropriate to proceed, taking into
account performance of both parties.

Furthering and sustaining efforts to normalise Palestinian lives and
build Palestinian institutions, Phase II starts after Palestinian elections
and ends with possible creation of an independent Palestinian state with
provisional borders in 2003.

Its primary goals are continued comprehensive security performance and
effective security cooperation, continued normalisation of Palestinian life
and institution-building, further building on and sustaining of the goals
outlined in Phase I, ratification of a democratic Palestinian constitution,
formal establishment of office of prime minister, consolidation of political
reform, and the creation of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

International Conference

* Convened by the Quartet, in consultation with the parties,
immediately after the successful conclusion of Palestinian elections, to
support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process leading to
establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders.

* Such a meeting would be inclusive, based upon the goal of a
comprehensive Middle East peace (including between Israel and Syria, and
Israel and Lebanon), and based upon the principles described in the preamble
to this document.

* Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices,
etc.).

* Revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regional
water resources, environment, economic development, refugees and arms
control issues.

* New constitution for democratic, independent Palestinian state is
finalised and approved by appropriate Palestinian institutions. Further
elections, if required, should follow approval of the new constitution.

* Empowered reform cabinet with office of prime minister formally
established, consistent with draft constitution.

* Continued comprehensive security performance, including effective
security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.

* Creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional
borders through a process of Israeli-Palestinian engagement. Launched by the
international conference.
As part of this process, implementation of prior agreements, to
enhance maximum territorial contiguity, including further action on
settlements in conjunction with establishment of a Palestinian state with
provisional borders.

* Enhanced international role in monitoring transition, with the
active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet.

* Quartet members promote international recognition of Palestinian
state, including possible UN membership.
Phase III
Permanent status agreement and end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict
2004-2005

* Progress into Phase III, based on consensus judgment of Quartet, and
taking into account actions of both parties and Quartet monitoring.

* Phase III objectives are consolidation of reform and stabilisation
of Palestinian institutions, sustained, effective Palestinian security
performance, and Israeli-Palestinian negotiations aimed at a permanent
status agreement in 2005.
Second international conference

* Convened by Quartet, in consultation with the parties, at beginning
of 2004 to endorse agreement reached on an independent Palestinian state
with provisional borders and formally to launch a process with the active,
sustained, and operational support of the Quartet, leading to a final,
permanent status resolution in 2005, including on borders, Occupied
Jerusalem, refugees, colonies and to support progress toward a comprehensive
Middle East settlement between Israel and Lebanon and Israel and Syria, to
be achieved as soon as possible.

* Continued comprehensive, effective progress on the reform agenda
laid out by the Task Force in preparation for final status agreement.

* Continued sustained and effective security performance and
sustained, effective security cooperation on the basis laid out in Phase I.

* International efforts to facilitate reform and stabilise Palestinian
institutions and the Palestinian economic, in preparation for final status
agreement.

* Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement
that ends the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2005, through a settlement
negotiated between the parties based on UNSCR 242, 338, and 1397, that ends
the occupation that began in 1967, and includes an agreed, just, fair, and
realistic solution to the refugee issue, and a negotiated resolution on the
status of Occupied Jerusalem that takes into account the political and
religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of
Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide, and fulfills the vision of two
states, Israel and sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine,
living side-by-side in peace.

* Arab state acceptance of full normal relations with Israel and
security for all the states of the region in the context of a compressive
Arab-Israeli peace.

[alexbmn]

if the Israelis dont fight this tooth and nail, they are done for.

[richcrassus]

If this 'roadmap' works, and i mean works like in our lifetime, ill walk around the world naked, and ill walk down harlem will a big sign saying i hate n*&&^%$, and ill walk down the main street in damascus saying i hate Arabs, and ill walk down to mecca with a huge placcard saying in arabic mohammod was a terrorist and a con artist. and ill walk down the main street in tel aviv with a huge swastika and doing a nazi salute to everyone.
Thats what ill do if this 'peace plan' works, like in the next 5yrs like their planning. And by work i mean, no suidicide attacks,no israeli 'incursions' etc etc..........
if it does work ill be in trouble,lol

[Alfred]

Originally posted by richcrassus
If this 'roadmap' works, and i mean works like in our lifetime, ill walk around the world naked, and ill walk down harlem will a big sign saying i hate n*&&^%$, and ill walk down the main street in damascus saying i hate Arabs, and ill walk down to mecca with a huge placcard saying in arabic mohammod was a terrorist and a con artist. and ill walk down the main street in tel aviv with a huge swastika and doing a nazi salute to everyone.


Fantastic.....I hope it works just to see that!!!! :)

Truthfully, however, I think richcrassus is safe.


Question One: isn't this the 50th plan that says the same essential thing?

Question Two: so if the terrorism continues...and the terrorists are not "official" Palestinians, then the game begins again? With a new Palestinian security force et. al.

the more things change the more things remain the same.....

[richcrassus]

I think the problem is is that, when hamas orders an attack or whatever, its not officially from the PLO or from arafat, but when israel orders ''incursions' and 10 or whatever bystanders get killed, the order came from the israeli govt, not from from some radical jewish group.
What folks dont understand is that everyday plas support hamas with words and probably money, wheras hardly any israelis would support a radical jewish group kicking out pals into gaza from israel.
By the way, wit iraq, those arabs dont want true democracy, all they want is an islamic state like IRAN, and on the news i saw a placcard saying "NO PEACE WITH ISRAEL" on that march by the shia towards those 2 'holy; muslim cities.
see, even when the USA liberates them people, they still only understand the gun and war.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Alfred
Question One: isn't this the 50th plan that says the same essential thing?



Oooof! And how many times did Arafat promise to "try" to "curb violence"? I stopped counting years ago. It was a joke with how many excuses he could come up with, but became a bad joke *when nobody called him on it*.

Elections were supposed to have taken place in the PA months ago, but were called off - indefinitely - on another Arafat whim. These elections were supposed to have been CENTRAL as part of "reform". Don't hold your breath.

And the same will happen with a Prime Minister. The whole IDEA behind insisting on the post of "Prime Minister" was to get Arafat OUT OF POWER. So here we see Arafat continuing to call all the shots - not only appointing the person replacing himself in power (isn't that an oxymoron?), but also having veto power over every member of the Cabinet appointed by the Prime Minister that he decides on.

In this situation, just exactly WHAT has "reformed"? Absolutely nothing. Bottom line, Arafat is STILL controlling EVERYTHING in the PA. So why play into their games? They take the "roadmap" no more seriously than the Oslo Accords. Most Israelis, yes, including me, were hopeful that Oslo would really happen. It took years for most Israelis to wake up that a one-sided Oslo was quite literally deadly for Israel. The roadmap and Palestinian state by 2005 would be even deadlier.

The PA "can't" hold elections, and Arafat still insists on controlling the "government", so there has been NO reform, and therefore NO JUSTIFICATION FOR PROCEEDING WITH THE "ROADMAP". Yes, I'm shouting, sorry.

[JustPat]

This "road map" is a dead end. It will never make it past Phase I. There is no chance of the end of terrorism in our lifetimes. So on to the next plan!

[Batman]

FROM:http://www.israelbehindthenews.com/

Epilogue

In brief, we may state without exaggeration that we are facing a Road Map to Hell, a document whose consequences are no less severe than those of the British White Paper of 1939. The Oslo Agreements were child's play compared to this Road Map.

Methodological criticism of the Oslo Accords pointed to a basic flaw: Israel's haste to establish the Palestinian Authority and accord the Palestinians authority, territory, weapons and funds, while leaving the chief points of disagreement – borders, refugees, Jerusalem, settlements and sovereignty – to be resolved later. This enabled the Palestinians to exploit their achievements in an attempt to force their own preferred solution to the deferred issues to be resolved.

Sharon apparently failed to learn a lesson from the Oslo Accords, having repeated the tactical error under far more serious circumstances: This time, he is paying the Palestinians an advance in the form of a sovereign state. From that point on, they can fight to achieve their perceived objectives as a bona fide state, a member of the United Nations, equipped with all tools, authority and individual support entailed thereby.

After two and a half years of the present Intifada, Yasser Arafat can credit himself with having achieved all his war objectives: A Palestinian state within immediate reach, international involvement and supervision, introduction of the United Nations and Europe into the area, military involvement by Jordan and Egypt, elimination of Jewish settlements and release of Israel's effective hold on most parts of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. It is chilling indeed to realize that we have paid for his achievements with over a thousand Jews murdered and many thousands more wounded in terror attacks since the Oslo Accords were drafted.

[Isiah 2:4]

I am only seventeen.

Is it just my youthful optimism that can see this plan working?

I am being naive when, in the next year, i hope that we see events and changes of opinion on both sides, to accomodate for each other, that has never happened before?

The only way it will start is for the israelis to withdraw to borders where they can set up secure lines of defence, and for the Palsestinians to end terrorism, simulteaneously and immediately.

they both have to change...

[judicial meanz]

Originally posted by JustPat
This "road map" is a dead end. It will never make it past Phase I. There is no chance of the end of terrorism in our lifetimes. So on to the next plan!

Its definitely a dead end. Its non binding on the signatory parties as well. The road map depends on the cooperation of the two nations ( guess who wont cooperate), and good faith effort to implement its conditions as permanent changes.

I apologize outright to my Israeli friends here who this farce will affect in the future. I sincerely hope our government wakes up and realizes all this will be is a trojan horse designed to further injure Israeli people.

[Salim]

suicide attack (3 dead, ~24 injured)
--> military intervention (15 dead including children aged 2, 3 and 15)

Yes, indeed a "dead" end.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
I am only seventeen.

Is it just my youthful optimism that can see this plan working?

I am being naive when, in the next year, i hope that we see events and changes of opinion on both sides, to accomodate for each other, that has never happened before?

The only way it will start is for the israelis to withdraw to borders where they can set up secure lines of defence, and for the Palsestinians to end terrorism, simulteaneously and immediately.

they both have to change...

Good job only 17!!! and keep that optimism always!

However, for the thing to work, facing the demons is always necessary. Sorry.

That is because EVIL does exist on this planet in the purest form.
Evil is not easy to accept or even recognize when one is of an kind and optimistic nature. That's because evil always uses these kind and optimistic tendencies to appear much less dangerous until evil can achieve the goals of satisfying the evil desire fully.

Also, there is no difference between a great evil and a smaller evil: just like a little poison and a lot of poison is still poison.

Evil is part of the soul of the ones who are its allies and performers. It is not eradicated by placating or appeasement. Evil is not honest. When you pressure it, it will go under and surface with a new mask. When you placate and appease it it will be emboldened to up the anti and do more damage.

The only way to deal with evil is to eradicate it from your midst.

only 17- have you ever had (or someone you know) an experience with a very hostile person with whom nothing worked no matter how hard you tried to work it out? and then, there was a choice to make either stay and suffer or eradicate the problem and go forward....

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Salim
suicide attack (3 dead, ~24 injured)
--> military intervention (15 dead including children aged 2, 3 and 15)

Yes, indeed a "dead" end.
This is exactly what I was talking about. Part of this "Road Map" is the Palestinians bringing a halt to these attacks. The will to do so is not there and thus ... the road is a dead end, a non-starter, a no-go. We will not change the destiny of these people until there is a change of heart at the grass roots level and in the leadership. Bring forward 15 of the current PA leadership and you will find all 15 who are unwilling to stop the violence.

What options are left?

Israel act in a unilateral fashion? That would be the death of Israel.

Death ot all Palestinians. That would be no better than the Nazi "Final Solution."

International intervention and oversight? Did I hear something about a monkey and a football?

Until the words of Amos 3:3 become the standard of behavior, nothing is going to change.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
suicide attack (3 dead, ~24 injured)
--> military intervention (15 dead including children aged 2, 3 and 15)

Yes, indeed a "dead" end.

The suicide bomber of the last terror attack was a british citizen. Can you expalin us all, what excuse can you give us, for a british citizen to make all the way over here to kill Jews?

Let's here your reasonings for massacre of Jews! was it the "road blocks"? the lack of "freedoms" ? the "desperation" ? "the poverty" ? Come on! entertain us!

[JustPat]

Quite the potholes in this road to peace, oh, I'm sorry, that was a bomb crater.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by JustPat
Quite the potholes in this road to peace, oh, I'm sorry, that was a bomb crater.

I loved your new tag!

[Communication]

What's Plan B? :(

[Salim]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
The suicide bomber of the last terror attack was a british citizen. Can you expalin us all, what excuse can you give us, for a british citizen to make all the way over here to kill Jews?

Let's here your reasonings for massacre of Jews! was it the "road blocks"? the lack of "freedoms" ? the "desperation" ? "the poverty" ? Come on! entertain us!

How could I explain something I don't understand?
Why do you think I want to justify murder?
It may sound unbeliviable to you, but there are Germans who are not mass murderers.

[Communication]

The problem is that without resolving the Palestinian issue, Israel will never know peace in the ME. However, all the Arab governments and the Pal terror organizations know this, and so they have never really had an incentive to work towards achieving a real peace. In addition, because of the way things have been "set up" to keep the Palestinians living in abject poverty all these years, and because of the perceived imbalance of power between the Palestinians and the Israelis, the Palestinians also have the world's sympathy at this time. That places Israel into a very difficult position. Israel should go forward with this "road map." If it fails, then there needs to be a "Plan B." The status quo is draining both sides and it will eventually lead to the destruction of both peoples. The rest of the Arab world couldn't give a rats arse if that happens. The Palestinians have always been simply pawns in their effort to rid the ME of Jews.

So what's "Plan B?" The only solution that I can think of would be for Israel, the United States and Jordan to enter into secret negotiations to have Jordan open up their borders and either transfer as many Palestinians to Jordan as possible, with them securing economic compensation and water rights from Israel, or have Jordan retake control of the WB along with additional incentives. I don't know what kind of incentives that would take. Jordan's population is already over 50% Palestinian and the last time they had control of the WB, they had to fight Fatah/PLO for control over Jordan, ending up with the Hashemite Kingdom expelling the organization to Lebanon. Jordan has up until now been unwilling to assume responsability for the problem.

If Israel does decide on transfer, then they will still have to face the wrath of the rest of the Arab world for the foreseeable future (they don't trade now with Israel anyway, so it will likely be the same ongoing demonization and political pressure that we have always seen) as well as backlash from other countries, particularly in the EU. Israel's trade with the EU now doesn't amount to a very high percentage of their overall exports, but it would still be a drain on the economy. If Israel were to do this, then they would have to absorb the remaining Palestinians into Israel, giving them full rights, and then make aggressive efforts at institutional reforms in the WB, building infrastructure, resettling as many Jews as possible into the WB, etc...

Then there's Gaza. Perhaps allow Egypt to monitor their own borders with Gaza, and let the Gazans decide what kind of political system to create for themselves? This is starting to sound ridiculous...

Setting aside all high hopes and being pragmatic about the whole thing (Isiah, I'm not much older than you, so I'm having trouble with this myself) the place is just too damn small for both peoples. Maybe something could be worked out for the next 20-50 years, but with birthrates being what they are, the people in Gaza are going to bust right out of there within a few generations, and there will be no way to maintain a decent quality of life for either Israelis or Palestinians, with the amount of densely packed urban housing that you will need to sustain all of that population growth. I want peace so much and I have no hate in my heart for the Palestinian people, but I feel like I'm being led to watch some sort of sad dance performance by both sides that they are putting on for the world at our request.

I don't know, I'm not feeling very positive today.

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by Communication
[B


Then there's Gaza. Perhaps allow Egypt to monitor their own borders with Gaza, and let the Gazans decide what kind of political system to create for themselves? This is starting to sound ridiculous...

[/B]

Letting Egypt keep an eye on gaza is like letting Hitler guard a synagogue.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
How could I explain something I don't understand?
Why do you think I want to justify murder?
It may sound unbeliviable to you, but there are Germans who are not mass murderers.

Your inability to understand murder of Jews surprizes me, on top of it, when a German can't recognize a hate crime committed against Jews, when he sees one, is suspicious. It shows either ignorance or double standards.

If a massacre of civilian Jews is not a hate crime, what a hate crime is then?

[Salim]

Your interpretations surprize me as well.
But you already came to the conclusion that all Germans are Nazis, why waste your time on suspicions?

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
Your interpretations surprize me as well.
But you already came to the conclusion that all Germans are Nazis, why waste your time on suspicions?

You are the one he who never stops from supplying us with fresh evidances! You do not support Israel right of self defence, you fail to "understand" the motives of the terrorists... (although on first hand, it seems like fa positive change, You still do not recognize terrorism as an orginzed hate crime). Now you have mentioned your Natzi parents, do you "fail to undersatand" their motives of genocide as well?

Till now, I was sure you Germans are world experts in anti semetism. Now, all of the sudden, you are not sure about the terrorist motives? You honestly believe we will take you serioucly on that?

[Salim]

Maybe it is due to my narrow minded, hate spreading massmurder perception, but I can't follow you in your conclusions.
You are accusing me of several things as if you would know everything about me.
I really wonder where that derives from.

Concerning my Nazi parents, well, they were born after '45.
Of course you could blame my grandmother, who recently died due to breast cancer, of being a Nazi, but I have to disappoint you on that.
She actually saved two Jewish children aged five and six by hiding them in her house.

But hey, just ignore it or call me a liar, this will make things much easier for you and will avert you from possible rethinkings about those barbarous Germans.

[Communication]

You two are at it again? :rolleyes:

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Salim
Concerning my Nazi parents, well, they were born after '45.
Of course you could blame my grandmother, who recently died due to breast cancer, of being a Nazi, but I have to disappoint you on that.
She actually saved two Jewish children aged five and six by hiding them in her house.
So how did your heart get so far away from hers?

[Salim]

Originally posted by Salim

You are accusing me of several things as if you would know everything about me.
I really wonder where that derives from.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
Maybe it is due to my narrow minded, hate spreading massmurder perception, but I can't follow you in your conclusions.
You are accusing me of several things as if you would know everything about me.
What you post is more then enough of a proof. I don't need to know you personaly, nor do I want too.

I really wonder where that derives from.
From your own posts. The post where you resist Jews right of self defence. How's that for a starter?. Next, your failur to recognize terrorism as a hate crime. Thus, you practicly support terrorism, the murder of my brotherens. As if there is some reason in the world that justifies massacre of Jewish children in their beds, or youngsters in a disco. Am I clear about that? Or you choose to keep your "I don't understant! I not speaki English" mask on.

Concerning my Nazi parents, well, they were born after '45. OK, you are younger then what I thought you to be. You are about my age I persume. So? what about that?

Of course you could blame my grandmother, who recently died due to breast cancer, of being a Nazi, but I have to disappoint you on that.
She actually saved two Jewish children aged five and six by hiding them in her house.

But hey, just ignore it or call me a liar, this will make things much easier for you and will avert you from possible rethinkings about those barbarous Germans.

Two childern! You don't say? Not one, not three, but two! Wasn't your other grand parants half Jewish from their mother's father's sister's borther's uncle side too??? Maybe you're my long lost brother that has never existed yet??? :rolleyes:

Of course you lie! Isn't it obvious???

For the sake of politness, Let's assume you are right... Then there must be a registration of this event, which I can easly find. Better yet, I can trace these children myself (even without leaving my chair!). Can you remember what's your granny name is?

[Mediocrates]

'There can be no peace for either side...unless there is freedom for both', declared President George W Bush, as he introduced his roadmap for peace in the Middle East to an expectant world (1).


By 'freedom' Bush means the people of the Middle East will be given strict instructions on how to resolve their conflict. The Palestinians will be told what kind of government to install, whom to elect, when to elect them, why to elect them, and what kind of politics to practise. The roadmap for peace lays the ground for relentless intervention by a 'Quartet' of powers (the USA, the EU, the UN and Russia) to oversee the Middle East's transition from conflict to peace by no later than 2005. Freedom doesn't get a look-in.


The roadmap sounds less like an historic strategy to negotiate a treaty between warring factions, than a Third Wayish attempt to wish away political conflict. It is a 'performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates and benchmarks aimed at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian and institution-building fields' (2). It sometimes sounds as if the Quartet of powers is trying to get the trains to run on time, rather than resolving a clash of two nations.


Yet behind the new-fangled focus on timelines and targets, the roadmap seeks to impose a solution. It is 'goal-driven' in the sense that the goal has already been defined by the Quartet, and there will have to be 'clear, unambiguous acceptance by both parties of the goal of a negotiated settlement as described below', because 'non-compliance...will impede progress' (3). It is 'performance-based' in the sense that the Quartet 'will meet regularly at senior levels to evaluate the parties' performance', and will take an 'active and sustained' interest in 'monitoring' the emergence of a Palestinian constitution and elections (4).


The roadmap is profoundly anti-democratic. Like the peace process that gave rise to it, the map is premised on the idea that a solution to the Middle Eastern conflict can only come from outside the Middle East. The parties to the conflict are clearly too blinkered and untrustworthy to resolve the issues among themselves, and need the helping hand of a disinterested and rational outside power (or four), who can show them what their best interests are.


This approach has defined the Israeli/Palestinian peace process. From the Madrid Conference of 1991 to kickstart 'a Middle Eastern peace strategy' to the 'historic handshake' between Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat on the White House lawn in 1993 to the Oslo Accords of the same year - the perceived wisdom has been that the further you are from the Middle East, the better placed you are to determine a sensible and fair outcome to the whole debacle.


In the world of the peace process - not only in the Middle East, but in South Africa, Ireland and elsewhere - the most authoritative are those who can rise above messy clashes and conflicts, who have no apparent self-interest in the end result, and who only want peace. This idea of resolution by a disinterested third party (usually the USA or the UN) is now seen as a commonsense approach to conflict resolution around the world - yet it is the antithesis of democracy.


The roadmap confirms the final emasculation of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have always been party to the peace process from a position of weakness rather than strength. Like other US-sponsored peace processes, the Middle Eastern one came about as a result of shifts in the global political climate. With the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War in the late 1980s, Western powers had a freer hand to impose solutions on conflicts around the world. The end of the Soviet Union and the isolation of the left-wing movements internationally put national liberation movements like the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) on the defensive.


Palestinians first got involved in peace talks at the Madrid conference in 1991, when the PLO leadership was increasingly isolated in the Arab world as well as internationally. During the 1991 Gulf War the PLO supported Saddam's Iraq, which alienated many of their wealthy supporters in and around the Gulf. It was from a defensive position of global and local isolation that the PLO entered the peace negotiations, during which it has made numerous concessions on its traditional goals and aims.


Now the new roadmap illustrates that the Palestinians - as a community with political aims and aspirations - no longer figure as an independent factor in the Middle East. Palestinian political life exists only inasmuch as it supports and subscribes to the broader requirements of the US-sponsored peace process. The 'viable' Palestinian state envisaged by the roadmap will be one designed to suit external requirements, rather than being internally built and sustained by the needs and desires of the Palestinian people.


Consider the Palestine Authority's new office of prime minister. This was created and filled because America demanded it, rather than as an expression of Palestinian political will. Earlier this year, Bush officials said there could be no progress in the Middle East until Palestinians installed a prime minister. America's primary interest was to sideline PLO leader Yasser Arafat, who is seen by some in the Bush and Blair camps as a barrier to a settlement. So Palestinian leaders created a prime ministerial office and filled it with Mahmoud Abbas, in line with American diktat.


The Palestinian prime minister is in power (if you can call it power) to suit outside demands, rather than being anything like an embodiment of Palestinian will. Likewise, the roadmap describes how the Quartet of powers will keep a close check on the emergence of a Palestinian state, to ensure that it puts 'tolerance and liberty' centre stage and follows the roadmap rules (5). In this vision for the Middle East, 'Palestine' will be little more than a hollow shell, where the leaders' primary responsibility will be to the peace process and the roadmap, rather than to their own people or politics.


Many have interpreted the roadmap as an old-style US/Israeli assault on Palestinian demands. Yet for the defeat of independent Palestinian politics, this roadmap also turns Israel into a pawn of the Quartet powers. The roadmap makes a list of demands of the Israeli leadership, relating to its borders, security and political culture. The roadmap may not have Palestinian interests at heart, but nor does it represent Israel's interests.


It remains to be seen whether the new Palestinian state due to be created by the roadmap will be 'viable' - the Quartet's favourite word. Durable political structures emerge from real struggles to decide the future and direction of society. The PLO, for all its shaky politics (a kind of unhappy marriage of Stalinism and Islam) and its documented corruption, was created and sustained by a struggle and by mass support from those who saw it as representing their interests. Its aims were internally generated, and it won fierce allegiance from the Palestinian people.


Will the Palestinians swear a similar allegiance to the hollow state envisaged by America's 'performance-based and goal-driven roadmap'?

Brendan O'Neill is coordinating the spiked-conference Panic attack: Interrogating our obsession with risk, on Friday 9 May 2003, at the Royal Institution in London.

(1) President Discusses Roadmap for Peace in the Middle East, White House, March 2003

(2) A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, US Department of State, 30 April 2003

(3) A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, US Department of State, 30 April 2003

(4) A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, US Department of State, 30 April 2003

(5) A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, US Department of State, 30 April 2003

[JustPat]

Perhaps more than a dead end, this "road map" is a death trap. Hark the precipice approaches. All aboard!

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Salim




She actually saved two Jewish children aged five and six by hiding them in her house.




How much did she get paid?

[Salim]

Gilga, Gilga... quite the kind of argumentation I'd expect from somebody who wants to kill 80.000.000 people by himself.
Btw, while you said you wouldn't like to meet me, I definitely would like to meet you.
Don't you think that it would really be a very interesting meeting?As I said before, the internet is really a very good place to argue, as you can manipulate and ignore your opponents words. Standing next to each other this is not possible, due to the ridiculousness that would be revealed at once.
In the internet one can much easier insist on one's prejudices, while standing face to face it would be much easier to find the least common denominator.
Anyway, keep up the good fighting, I am really looking forward to your next offensive.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
Gilga, Gilga... quite the kind of argumentation I'd expect from somebody who wants to kill 80.000.000 people by himself. As if your people hadn't done all that is possible to win this attitude from us.

Btw, while you said you wouldn't like to meet me, I definitely would like to meet you.Good! I'll hope to have my bulldozer license by then! In some circumstances, I'll be very happy to meet you!

I'm reading a book about how to shrink heads. I hope you'll be a reasonable keyholder for me... hope you wouldn't mind too much, would you?

Don't you think that it would really be a very interesting meeting? I agree! It could turn out to be a great meeting! When do you come? Should I prepare you a welcoming committe of friend who share my opinion, or you rather we meet me one-on-one... Just say so, and so be it!

As I said before, the internet is really a very good place to argue, I has it's limitations, though...

as you can manipulate and ignore your opponents words. Such as?
You support terrorism, as you fail to recognize the last bombmings as a hate crime, do you not?
You resist Jews right for self defence, do you not?
You are against Jews right of access (let alone ownership) of Jewish holy places? You do support the very people, the Arab "palestinians" who swarn to slay me and my brotherens, following your people crimes example. Have you ever written a single word, in English or German, against anti semetic Arab propoganda?

In the light of these question I ask you repeatedly, and only void is my answer, Let me ask you this: Do you chear when you hear my people are slain by Arab terrorists? Please, do lie. We can read between the lines, whatever your choise of words.


Tell me I am wrong... can you? Reffer me to a single letter, forum post or anything where you support Israel, English or German, that I can access to. Better yet, lets see you composing somthing readable, where you support us. Anything that could change my mind about you, alittle. (not that I think you're up to it).

Comming to think of it... You haven't told us your granny name. Were you lieing? Are you afraid we dig up the information about her real part in the Natzi eara? Were you trying to earn points by rewriting history? Was your little story is a joke on the expance of the pains of my family? Don't you underestimate the impact of your "people" crimes?

Standing next to each other this is not possible, due to the ridiculousness that would be revealed at once. Just watch it. Watching you without your teeth is not ridiculous at all... It'll be fun!

In the internet one can much easier insist on one's prejudices, while standing face to face it would be much easier to find the least common denominator. Not true! I have no problem repeating these very same word I've for you, face to face.

For my forum peers:
Don't get the wrong impression about me, It's not like I'll pop up in central Berlin with a baseball bat. (however the thought does crosses my mind, from time to time). Anti semetism is the reason for the holocaust. Anti semetism is a deep rooted phenomena in european and Germanic culture. Can one change culture? Yes, It takes time and will. Do Germans have the will to root out anti semetism? I don't think so, on the contrarry, I feel Germans are begining to forget the outcomes of their last war. Germans claim to be changed people, with brand new anti-semetic free, culture. Is that for real?

Germans have very little evidances to back their claims. However, there are planty of poofs for their committment for the destruction of Israel. If its, the poison gas technology and raw mattirials, sold to the Iraqies, If it's the breaching of the embargo on Iran, If its the German support of terrorism, its German taxpayers who pay for Arafat terrorism! see this (http://www.zeit.de/2002/24/Politik/200224_arafat_haupttext.html) (you can read German, don't you?). Germany and France are the last backers of the Syrian goverment- a terror state just like Iraq, in a state of war with Israel. German terrorists are second only to arabs, in motivation and ivolvment in attacking Jewish and Israeli civilian targets. (remember Antebe? ). What about the German co-operation with the Arab terrorists, by criminal neglagence in 1972 Munichen Olimpics massacre of Israeli athlates? Israeli commandos, BTW, were forbidden to rescure the hostages. Now, tell me these are no proofs of German true attitude toward anti semetism.

Anyway, keep up the good fighting, I am really looking forward to your next offensive. You bat I will!! I sure hope not to seein you hangin round here no more!

[Simon]

Good!
I'll hope to have my bulldozer license by then! In some circustances, I'll be very happy to meet you!

:D Good one, Gil.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Salim
Gilga, Gilga... quite the kind of argumentation I'd expect from somebody who wants to kill 80.000.000 people by himself.
Btw, while you said you wouldn't like to meet me, I definitely would like to meet you.
Don't you think that it would really be a very interesting meeting?As I said before, the internet is really a very good place to argue, as you can manipulate and ignore your opponents words. Standing next to each other this is not possible, due to the ridiculousness that would be revealed at once.
In the internet one can much easier insist on one's prejudices, while standing face to face it would be much easier to find the least common denominator.
Anyway, keep up the good fighting, I am really looking forward to your next offensive.
Perhaps if you answered his questions this would be a discussion instead of an argument. :rolleyes:

[Salim]

Ah, I am really beginning to like this "last man standing" role.
( more of those "Gil you rock, this guys sucks!!!!1" comments please)
Though I am quite sorry that I can't please you with such uttered masterpieces provided by yourself, I will try to find the right words.
I won't rectify those alleged accusations, as it would be useless to try to change your views on me or any other German after all what you said about Germany. It's up to you what kind of reality you prefer.
Only this, I do not cheer when somebody gets murdered, and I f***ing don't care about the Adjectives infront.

Off for a good night...
(I heard from some friends that you really know how to party in Israel, so get off that pc and forget this weird dude who is wasting your time for just a second)

Anyway, I will surly prost with my friends on you tonight.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
Ah, I am really beginning to like this "last man standing" role.
( more of those "Gil you rock, this guys sucks!!!!1" comments please) Life a b*tch, when G-d, brains and the truth, are NOT on your side!

Though I am quite sorry that I can't please you with such uttered masterpieces provided by yourself, I will try to find the right words. The self admition I needed to prove your builtin anti semetism. It proves my methods and hypotesis. Now, I safly and surly wish to vote, the banning of that pile of anti semetic european called "Salim".

However I enjoyed bashing him, this tiny little victory I like better. Sadly, I can't say it was a battle of wits... cause he proved not to have any...

I won't rectify those alleged accusations, as it would be useless to try to change your views on me or any other German after all what you said about Germany. Feer of confronting the facts? its a slipery slop you're walking on... Once a nation looses interst in Facts... it's interesting to speculate on european and Lefics mindset, given Salim's example.

It's up to you what kind of reality you prefer.
Only this, I do not cheer when somebody gets murdered, and I f***ing don't care about the Adjectives infront. Does the terrorist killer, is on the same moral level as his victim? Or you're too boared and lazy to care?

To begin with, beeing intelectual lazy is not something I consider civilized. Ignorace is a vice, not vertue. However, I don't blame you for being lazy, or careless about the identity of dead people far away. I admit, I care most for my own family members, then for my Jewish brotherens, then for the life and welfare of my alies, friends and those who ever cares for me and my brotherens. I sympathies with the victims of what ever human tragedy I hear about, I hope its obvious for you. I assume all, non hypocratic people think like I am. I believe Salim thinks so too... Can't hold this against him... But, if that is the case, WHAT THE HECK IS HE LOOKING FOR IN HERE???

Off for a good night... Wish you would never wake in the morning... (or any morning for that matter).

(I heard from some friends that you really know how to party in Israel, so get off that pc and forget this weird dude who is wasting your time for just a second) You heard right! We're graet in partying and eating fine foods. Bad drinkers though...

Anyway, I will surly prost with my friends on you tonight. Good! I guess they are all phto-copies of you, which saves me lots of internet time...

I sure hope not to meet THAT eurotrash creature ever again, not here, not any where. My job (about the hun) is done.

[Isiah 2:4]

Mediocrates, i think a false freedom would be better then no freedom at all. The Israelis and the pals are not going to sort it out themselves.

Anyone else (governments) who is interested in the conflictdoes so beacuse they either make money out of it (Weapons, trading partners etc...) get better poll ratngs in their country of Governance because of it, pursue a vain crusade on the behalf of their cultural values, or get to blame their foreign policy on the Jews. Arab or Western despot alike.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Mediocrates, i think a false freedom would be better then no freedom at all. The Israelis and the pals are not going to sort it out themselves. We Israelis can sort is by ourselves. However, it carries a price. We might sustain more cassulties and economic sanctions.

Personaly, I belive the most moral thing to do, which will save most lives is to kill Arafat and have a swift victory. Obviously, the goverment does not share my point of view.


Anyone else (governments) who is interested in the conflictdoes so beacuse they either make money out of it (Weapons, trading partners etc...) get better poll ratngs in their country of Governance because of it, pursue a vain crusade on the behalf of their cultural values, or get to blame their foreign policy on the Jews. Arab or Western despot alike.
However right you are, that no body reall motives are purly humanistic, I do hope you are able to distinct between two moral levels. Wanting to earn money is not as curropt or evil as "persueing a vain crusade" called Jihad, a holy war. Also, you must agree that there are no Western dispots today. (there used to be, but, not now). Western leaders, how ever annoying they might be are, not on the same moral level as racist Arab dispots.
Bush is NOT a western version of Saddam. (and Hitler was not the leader of the free world, the way Germanies foreign minister had suggested).

[Mediocrates]

PM: 'Iraq war created an opportunity with the Palestinians we can't miss'

By Ari Shavit

Outside the bureau the usual spin is spun. There's no concern at all. Relations with George Bush are excellent. Mutual esteem, reciprocal fondness, joint credibility abound. So what's to be afraid of? There's no danger the "road map" will turn into a road trap. Anyway, Ariel Sharon is good at getting out of traps. It's his speciality, leading others into the traps he himself has eluded.

However, the prime minister is not the same person he was not so long ago. Polite as always, evoking memories as always, but more cautious than ever. Lying under every question he sees a landmine. Lying under every statement is a crisis it is liable to foment.

Since the elections he hasn't spoken out much. In fact, even during the election campaign he didn't speak very much. The last time he said something explicit and clear, Justice Mishael Cheshin cut him off. No, he hasn't forgotten that, and no, he didn't like it. But no one will catch him uttering a word of criticism about a judge. He won't say a word about the journalists, either. He recognizes the importance of a free media. But the words he used then - you have gone crazy - reflects his feeling. What happened during the election campaign he still sees as a clear-cut case of irrational behavior.

The year that has passed since the Passover eve massacre at the hotel in Netanya was his greatest year. He responded to the crescendo of terrorism with military might - Operation Defensive Shield - and with political moderation (the confrontation with Benjamin Netanyahu at the Likud Central Committee meeting). In his mid-seventies he achieved unprecedented popularity because he proved so adept at maneuvering within the Bush-Arafat-Netanyahu triangle.

It was the solid backing of the president of the United States that made it possible for him to imprison Arafat in the Muqata and Netanyahu in the treasury. However, the suspicion is looming now that the year of grace is drawing to a close; that it is Bush who is about to imprison Sharon himself in the road map. So things are very tense these days in the Prime Minister's Bureau. Quiet, but tense.

Prime Minister Sharon, we are at an astonishing historic moment. The reality around us is changing radically. From your point of view, is the new reality in the Middle East after the fall of Iraq promising or dangerous? Good or bad for Israel?

Sharon: "The Iraqi leadership was a horrific and murderous one. As early as 20 years ago they understood it was impossible to acquire an Islamic bomb, and therefore it had to be manufactured. So the removal of Iraq as a threat is definitely a relief. However, this does not mean that all of the problems we are facing have been removed. Iran is making every effort to produce weapons of mass destruction and is engaged in making ballistic missiles. Libya is making a very great effort to acquire nuclear weapons. What is developing in these countries is dangerous and serious. In Saudi Arabia, too, there is a regime that grants sanctioned aid to terrorist organizations here.

Are you saying that what happened in Iraq has to happen, in one way or another, in Iran, Libya and Saudi Arabia?

"In the matter of Iraq, the United States showed leadership at the highest level. I don't think it is realistic to think that immediately after the conclusion of one campaign, another will begin. Even a superpower has limits. When you win, you are also weakened to a certain degree.

"But we face the possibility that a different period will begin here. The move carried out in Iraq generated a shock through the Middle East and it brings with it a prospect of great changes. There is an opportunity here to forge a different relationship between us and the Arab states, and between us and the Palestinians. That opportunity must not be neglected. I intend to examine these things with all seriousness."

Do you think there is a prospect of reaching a settlement in the foreseeable future?

"That depends first and foremost on the Arabs. It obligates a different type of leadership - a battle against terrorism and a series of reforms. It obligates the absolute cessation of the incitement and the dismantling of all terrorist organizations. But if there will be a leadership that understands these things and will carry them out seriously, the possibility of reaching a settlement exists."

Do you consider Abu Mazen a leader with whom you will be able to reach a settlement?

"Abu Mazen understands that it is impossible to vanquish Israel by means of terrorism."

One day very soon the telephone might ring. The president of the United States will be on the line. He will tell you, Arik, I have removed an existential threat from Israel, I am fomenting a revolution throughout the region. Now the time has come for you to make your contribution. Let's have Netzarim, please."

"There are some matters regarding which we will be ready to take far-reaching steps. We will be ready to carry out very painful steps. But there is one thing that I told President Bush a number of times - I made no concessions in the past, and I will make no concessions now, or ever make concessions in the future, with regard to anything that is related to the security of Israel. I explained to President Bush and made it clear to him that this is the historic responsibility that I bear for the future and the fate of the Jewish people. You should know this - on this subject there will be no concessions. We will be the ones who in the end decide what is dangerous for Israel and what is not dangerous for Israel."

And what about Netzarim? [An isolated settlement in the Gaza Strip]

"I don't want to get into a discussion of any specific place now. This is a delicate subject and there is no need to talk a lot about it. But if it turns out that we have someone to talk to, that they understand that peace is neither terrorism nor subversion against Israel, then I would definitely say that we will have to take steps that are painful for every Jew and painful for me personally."

Isn't that phrase "painful concessions" a hollow expression?

"Definitely not. It comes from the depth of my soul. Look, we are talking about the cradle of the Jewish people. Our whole history is bound up with these places. Bethlehem, Shiloh, Beit El. And I know that we will have to part with some of these places. There will be a parting from places that are connected to the whole course of our history. As a Jew, this agonizes me. But I have decided to make every effort to reach a settlement. I feel that the rational necessity to reach a settlement is overcoming my feelings."

You established the settlements and you believed in the settlements and nurtured them. Are you now prepared to consider the evacuation of isolated settlements?

"If we reach a situation of true peace, real peace, peace for generations, we will have to make painful concessions. Not in exchange for promises, but rather in exchange for peace."

Some people expect you to be an Israeli [Charles] de Gaulle - a national leader, a general, who at a certain point understands that reality has changed and turns his back on part of his own history and creates a dramatic historical turning point. Do you have any such aspirations?

"One has to remember one thing about the comparison with de Gaulle - `Algeria' is here. It is not a few hundred kilometers away. The required measure of caution here is therefore much greater."

But I am asking about you. Do you want to be remembered as the one who spearheaded such a dramatic change?

"Let me tell you something. I am determined to make a real effort to reach a real agreement. I think that anyone who saw the tremendous thing called the State of Israel in the making possibly understands things better and knows better how to reach a solution. That is why I think that this task rests with my generation, which was privileged to live through one of the most dramatic periods in the history of the Jewish people.

"I am 75 years old. I have no political ambitions beyond the position I now hold. I feel that my goal and my purpose is to bring this nation to peace and security. That is why I am making tremendous efforts. I think that this is something that I have to leave behind me - to try to reach an agreement."

Have you really accepted the idea of to states for two peoples? Do you really plan to divide western Israel?

"I believe that this is what will happen. One has to view things realistically. Eventually there will be a Palestinian state. I view things first and foremost from our perspective. I do not think that we have to rule over another people and run their lives. I do not think that we have the strength for that. It is a very heavy burden on the public and it raises ethical problems and heavy economic problems."

Even so, under your leadership Israel went back to directly controlling Palestinian cities.

"Our stay in Jenin and in Nablus is temporary. Our presence in those cities was created in order to protect Israeli citizens from terrorist activities. It is not a situation that can persist."

[Mediocrates]

In the past you talked about a long-term interim agreement. Did you not believe in a permanent solution and an end to the conflict?

"I think opportunities have currently been created that did not exist before. The Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular have been shaken. There is therefore a chance to reach an agreement faster than people think."

The Israeli public chose you twice by a large majority because it wants you to repulse Yasser Arafat and beat him. Have you done that?

"I think that one of our successes is that we opened many people's eyes to the true nature of the Palestinian Authority and the nature of the person who heads it, making him irrelevant. When I used that phrase in the past it shocked many of our supporters, mainly those who write and express themselves. But in the end, Arafat became irrelevant."

Do you not fear that perhaps you won the battle against Arafat and against the terror but lost in the matter of the Palestinian state and the settlements? After all, the thing on the agenda now is the road map, which is not very comfortable for Israel.

"We supported the principles that were presented in President Bush's speech of June 24, 2002. As long as the sketch matches the speech, it is acceptable to us. Regarding the latest draft that was sent to us, we have 14 or 15 reservations that I have passed on to the White House."

What are the main reservations?

"The main issue is security. How terror will be handled. There is no difference of opinion in this matter but there is a difference in the wording.

The second matter is that of the implementation of the stages. Our understanding with the United States is that the will be no transition from one stage to the next without the completion of the previous stage. The determining factor is not the timetable but the execution. That is why the issue of the stages is of paramount importance to us.

Our third reservation concerns the right of return. This definitely poses a problem.

Is your willingness to recognize a Palestinian state conditional on the Palestinians backing down from their demand for the right of return?

"If there is ever to be an end to the conflict the Palestinians must recognize the Jewish people's right to a homeland and the existence of an independent Jewish state in the homeland of the Jewish people. I feel that this is a condition for what is called an end to the conflict. This is not a simple thing. Even in the agreements we signed with Egypt and Jordan this was impossible. That is why they did bring about an end to the conflict. They are important agreements, very important, but they did not bring about an end to the conflict. The end of the conflict will come only with the arrival of the recognition of the Jewish people's right to its homeland.

That has to do with the end of the process. But do you think that the compromise on the right of return has to come beforehand?

This issue must be clear right from the outset.

Would you be willing, perhaps as a gesture to the Americans, to freeze construction in the settlements or to evacuate illegal outposts as part of the first stage?

"That is a sensitive issue. In the final stage of negotiations it will be brought up for discussion. We don't have to deal with it just now."

One of your tactical achievements is your success in avoiding as much as possible any situation that forces you to make difficult choices. But if we are in fact approaching the moment of truth and your choice will have to be between Bush and Ze'ev Hever. [A prominent settler leader and close associate of Sharon's]. Who will you choose?

"Each of the two people you mentioned is a special and impressive person. Each of them is very impressive in his own field."

Bush will also have to choose soon between two people whom he appreciates - Ariel Sharon and British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Are you not afraid that even with all Bush's respect and affection for you he will choose Blair?

"We are not under pressure. There is dialogue. Sometimes we see things the same way, sometimes we view them differently. But our relationship is very close. Our relationship with the White House has never been so good. I would like to emphasize that we are not in a conflict with the U.S. I do not live with a feeling that we are under any threat.

There are those who feel that the road map is worse than the Oslo accords. Some people figure the Americans have caught you off guard, that they led you to believe that the road map is not a serious document and then presented it to you as a fait accompli. Do you not feel that you have been misled?

"No. Not at all. Israel is not a pawn on a chessboard that anyone can move. We live here. It will be impossible to budge Israel on the major matters that are principles of her existence."

Do you feel that the dark and violent period of the past three years is ending?

"I will make every effort to make it end. I do not intend to be passive. The moment a Palestinian state forms I plan to begin working with it. I will not wait for the telephone to ring."



`I trust Netanyahu, the economic plan - and my sons'

Your finance minister is a Thatcherite, he believes in a small government and a big free market. In the past you were also a Thatcherite. Are you comfortable with the [economic] plan?

"We have reached a stage where difficult measures are necessary. This is a necessary step. therefore I support the plan that Mr. Netanyahu presented to the government."

The whole plan is acceptable to you?

"Everyone can fiddle and find an article here or an article there that he can argue about. But we are talking about these things also. This is a plan that must be passed. We all must stand together on this matter. This is not an easy matter, it is a difficult one, and it requires a great effort from all of us."

Your relationship with Mr. Netanyahu is well known. Are you not sacrificing him? Do you not enjoy watching him sweat?

"No. Not at all. I hear that there is such talk. But I can say with certainty that my relationship with him is good. I am in close communication with him. We talk nearly every day, and sometimes more than once a day."

Do you respect him?

"I think he is an excellent finance minister. He has my full backing, and he will continue to receive my full backing."

Besides the personal question, there is a fiery social and economic debate taking place. Your voice is not heard in this debate. Are you not worried that your government will be viewed as an Ashkenazi, secular and sated government that lacks sufficient social sensitivity?

"I do not think that this government ignores social issues. I also don't think there is any link between social sensitivity and ethnic origin."

Are you enjoying this government more than you did from the previous one?

"I think this is a very good government. It has good ministers and it is handling matters very well. But I enjoyed the previous government also. In my eyes its greatest achievement was that it brought a near end to hatred between the right and the left. This, in my opinion, is one of our greatest achievements."

Still, during the elections, the spirits were inflamed once again. What did you think when you found yourself under fire once more?

"Well, all right, this is not the first time that I encountered such things. Did I feel good about it? I did not. But I knew what the truth was. I knew that the day after the elections it would all disappear. Look, the Jews are great. Really great. The Jewish nation is among the great nations, perhaps the greatest nation. But the Jews also know how to hate."

Do you not think that there was a flaw in the relationship between your son Gilad and Dudu Appel and Cyril Kern or in the relationship between your son Omri and Shlomi Oz?

"Believe me, I am not involved in those things. I do not know the details. I trust my sons."

The sons are an important part of your decision making process? Are they active partners in the handling of the affairs of state?

"These claims are exaggerated. The sons are not part of the handling of the affairs. But our family is very special. I think that Lily [Sharon's late wife] had a part in creating a special atmosphere inside the family. They are good friends, the boys, true friends. I am proud of them."

You are a man that respects action, striving, bravery and friendship. However, maybe the whole matter of rule of law and public ethics does not really relate to you.

"This is a matter that relates to me a great deal. The law is the law and everything related to it must be obeyed. I support keeping the law in full, for everyone, on an equal basis."

[takeo]

This roadmap is essentially a good devellopment, altough it has been supported by the US only to appease Arab countries after their invasion and occupation of Iraq.
So there's nothing that forces the Israeli side to actually comply to the proposed steps, which means the implementation can be delayed without much problems, as happened during the oslo-process as well. that's probably why this extremist right-wing israeli government, opposed to peace with the palestinians, withdrawel and removal of colonies, has agreed to the plan.
On the palestinian side there is a lot of mentioning of outrootingterrorism, but no effective means to reach this goal(for example international assistance, etc.).
Finally the most difficult questions are avoided untill the final stage, which means that even if the israeli stop incursions, remove illegal settlements and palestinians succeed in curtailing terrorism, there is still a possibility that could end the total peace-process. very unlikely that israel will agree to restore the pre-1967 borders, while this are crucial international and palestinian demands. likewise, the refugee-problem and the jerusalem conflict will proove to be tough to resolve.

But anyway it is a positive step in the right direction, the first step of implementing the unsc-resolutions and end the occupation and violence in the region. Let's hope that the us are serious about this plan and won't use it as a kind of diplomatic windowdressing to restore their very damaged image in the middle East and the world...

""One has to remember one thing about the comparison with de Gaulle - `Algeria' is here. It is not a few hundred kilometers away. The required measure of caution here is therefore much greater.""

This is an interestin remark. Yes, indeed palestine is comparable to what Algeria was for france, except that it's closer without a sea separating the two. But ultimately, only an end to colonialism will end the struggle between the two peoples.

[takeo]

You are right that this plan is completely foreign, and forces upon the both parties. this is typical for us-policy and did not generate a lot of results in the past. Israel and the Palestinians may agree to it, but i'm quite sure that the government of Ariel Sharon will do anything possible to undermine the plan. palestinian public opinion will support the plan if it brings some results, if it really leads to a palestinian state.

Gilga, your opinions about the Germans are generalising, racist and even fascist. You are condemning 80 millions of people you don't even know. Personally i'm not a great admirer of Germany, and certainly many Germans supported Hitler, but it is absolutely ridiculous to claim that all germans are anti-semitic. Germany gave many billions to Israel for decades and most Germans nowadays, certainly the new generation, despise Hitler.

there is a difference between agreeing with the existance of israel and agreeing to every single aspect of its policy. Yes, israel has the right to defend itself, so have the palestinians, who live for generations under foreign oppression. (and whatever justification you'll search for this occupation, the fact remains that palestinians are an occupied and oppressed nation, and have the right to defend themselves as well)

[Batman]

Originally posted by Salim
Your interpretations surprize me as well.
But you already came to the conclusion that all Germans are Nazis, why waste your time on suspicions?

you are right, Mr. Grim is not a Nazi.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
found on this forum at:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=2150&highlight=eternal+nazi



THE ETERNAL NAZI:
A GERMAN AUDIENCE VIEWS ROMAN POLANSKI'S 'THE PIANIST'
by William Grim
Iconoclast Contributing Editor

There's an old joke that inside every German there's a Nazi yearning to get out. While a gross overstatement, there is, I'm unhappy to report, more than a little truth to that old chestnut. But more about that
later.

Last week I had the opportunity in Munich to attend a screening of Roman Polanski's new film The Pianist, a film that will not premiere in the United States for another month. This film is based on the true story of the Polish Jewish piano virtuoso Wladyslaw Szpilman, who survived the entire Nazi occupation of Warsaw hiding in the Ghetto and at times being hidden right under the noses of the Nazis in safe houses maintained by
the Polish Resistance. Simply put, POLANSKI'S film is a masterpiece. It
is considerably better than Schindler's List and is undoubtedly the
greatest Holocaust movie of all time. The Pianist has already won the Palm d'Or at Cannes. It deserves to win the Oscar.

What is remarkable about the film is its brutal and unflinching honesty. It avoids the cheap sentimentality that marred the otherwise exemplary Schindler's List. The film also avoids stereotypes as much as possible.
Not all of the Jews behave nobly, and one Nazi officer at the end of the film is shown to have at least one spark of humanity left in his otherwise accursed soul. Adrien Brody delivers a stunning performance as Wladyslaw Szpilman, an incredibly demanding role as he is in virtually every scene. The cinematography is brilliant, and even when we are not seeing the title character in action, the events occurring on film are from the point of view of the protagonist, as though we are watching along with him as he peeks out of his hiding places to see Germans murdering Jews just for the sheer sport of it, and later on, Germans
getting a taste of their own medicine when the Warsaw Uprising begins.

In addition to exposing the full range of Germanic horrors that made up
the Holocaust -- I don't want to give too much of the movie away, but there is one scene in which the Germans summarily execute an entire family of Jews that is so shocking in its brutality that you'll want go home and break every piece of Dresden china in the cupboard and take a sledgehammer to every yuppie scum's Beamer in the parking lot -- The Pianist is a testament to the indefatigable spirit of life that refuses "to go gentle into the night." In particular, the humanizing influence of art, of the will to create, is expertly juxtaposed by Polanski to the German will to destroy, indeed, to the Germanic tendency to embrace all
of the negative energy of the universe. In the battle between artistic matter and Germanic anti-matter, it is art that ultimately triumphs.

The execrable German Marxist philosopher Theodor W. Adorno (who is best known today as the model for the character Wendall Kretzschmar, one of the manifestations of the Devil in Thomas Mann's novel Doktor Faustus), once famously remarked that "after Auschwitz there can be no art." Although Adorno was no Nazi (indeed, he spent World War II in exile in
Hollywood where he devoted his time to denouncing America and ridiculing American culture, especially "Negro jazz"), his willingness to deny art to those who had been brutalized by his fellow countrymen reveals an arrogance so profound that it is simply beyond the capacity to analyze. It also is a clear demonstration of how easily all Germans (whether of
the left or the right) fall into the risible delusion that they somehow constitute a "master race." For what Adorno is really saying is that since German culture has been found wanting no one else may be permitted to seek meaning and solace from art.

There can be only one response to Adorno, and it is found in the final scene of The Pianist. The War is over and life has returned to Warsaw. Wladyslaw Szpilman is performing a concerto accompanied by a full orchestra. No words are spoken, and the scene continues as the credits are rolling. But the message is clear. It is the raised middle finger, proudly held aloft, and it points towards Germany, the remnants of the Nazi Party and Theodor W. Adorno.

Now, back to the Germans yearning to rediscover their inner Nazis. I have to admit that it is a strange experience to watch a Holocaust film in Germany. It's even stranger when you're the only American in the midst of about 200 Germans. But perhaps the strangest thing of all is to watch the reactions of the Germans as the events of the movie unfold.
You hear a lot about how Germans are so ashamed today of the behavior of their countrymen during the Nazi period and about how much they've done to atone for their past sins. Don't buy that bill of goods. If the audience of the screening I attended is any indication of German attitudes in general, it doesn't augur well for the future. Remember, this wasn't an audience composed of skinheads from the neo-Nazi enclaves in Karlsruhe and the former DDR. This was a group of Germany's best and
brightest: educated, middle class, sophisticated denizens of a major cosmopolitan city.

One scene in particular is seared into my consciousness. It happens about halfway into the film. The Jews of Warsaw have been herded into the Ghetto. A street used by the Germans bisects the Ghetto. While a group of Jews is waiting to cross to the other side of the street, several Nazi thugs force some elderly Jews to dance at an increasingly faster tempo. Weakened by malnutrition, hobbling on crutches, riddled with heart and lung infirmities, many of the Jews fall to the ground in
sheer agony. It's a sickening scene. It's the kind of scene that makes you ashamed that your last name is Grim. Hell, it's the kind of scene that makes you ashamed that you listen to Beethoven. If an American soldier had done the same to a German or Jap POW he would have been thrown into the brig for life or cashiered out of the service on a Section 8. But there they were, today's educated, freedom-loving, let's-all-hold-hands-and-love-one-another Germans, laughing at torture.

If there is a more sickening spectacle than Germans finding humor in what their fathers and grandfathers did to the Jews, if there is a more perfect example of the utter lack if humanity at the core of the German nation, I am unaware of it. There is something terribly wrong with Germany and the German Volk. The German soul is a deep abyss, a fetid, stinking morass that befouls the community of nations. But wait, there's more.

Another scene from the movie that stands out is when an SS guard announces to a half-starving Jewish work detail that they will be receiving an additional portion of bread with their rations, one that they can sell to other Jews, because "everybody knows how clever the Jews are at selling things." This time the audience fairly rolled with laughter.

I was tempted to call in an airstrike on the theater, or at the very
least to bitch slap a couple of hundred Germans, but I managed to hold my fire knowing that ultimately any World War II movie ends badly for the Germans. Normally I don't talk back to the screen at the movies, but I do have to admit that I did yell out " U S A" and pumped my fist in the air when the Szpilman family listened to the announcement on the radio that the United States had declared war on Germany. And I also do have to admit that it felt mighty fine to yell out "Shoot those damn Nazis!" when the film showed the Jews starting to fight back during the
Warsaw Uprising.

It's funny how quiet the theater became when near the film's end a group of SS goons were shown in a holding camp awaiting transportation to a deserved harsh fate in the Russian gulag. And then it became clear as a bell. German shame for World War II does not result from a moral awareness of the innumerable crimes and atrocities committed by the Germans. No, the Germans are ashamed because they got their rear ends
handed back to them by a bunch of Yanks, Russkies and Brits who they considered -- and still consider -- to be members of inferior races.

After the movie was over, I strolled along Schellingstrasse in the
Schwabing district of Munich. By chance I happened to pass the site of the original headquarters of the Nazi Party. It's an interior decorating company now. How appropriate. On the surface Germany may be a changed nation, far removed from the heyday of its Nazi period. But it's all a façade. The wallpaper and carpeting may be new, the portraits of Hitler may have been replaced by African objets d'art, but the foundation of
the structure is Nazi through and through.

And as the German economy plunges further into a recession that is largely of its own making, as even German economists begin to notice the disturbing parallels between the economies of 2002 and 1932, the question remains as to how long it will be before the Germans let their inner Nazis manifest themselves in public. The Eternal Nazi, I'm afraid, will be with us as long as there is a German nation. The Pianist is a great film and an even greater cautionary tale, because history has an unfortunate way of repeating itself.

[takeo]

I don't think the germans have fully accepted their horrifiing past, it remains a taboo and very few people like to talk about it.

but isn't this the same in the US? millions of vietnamese, laotians and cambodians died because of the us-policy of massive bombing, yet this remains an absolute taboo in the US, people do not want to talk about their own past crimes.

[Mediocrates]

No

a) it's simply not the same case, factually
b) hyperbole solves nothing
c) no one refuses to talk about it
d) that's just a point YOU make, not us

[takeo]

it's not the same case, but it's similar. Their governments were in both cases responsible for the death of millions of people.

very few people in the US, nor the mainstream media, like to talk about the casualties in Indochina. the same happens in germany, the mainstream press and the germans in general do not like to talk about WWII.

[Batman]

Originally posted by takeo
it's not the same case, but it's similar. Their governments were in both cases responsible for the death of millions of people.

very few people in the US, nor the mainstream media, like to talk about the casualties in Indochina. the same happens in germany, the mainstream press and the germans in general do not like to talk about WWII.

It's so completely different.

The German genocide against the Jews was based on hatered of a minority that lived among the Germans and Europe and contributed to these societies for centuries.

The Vietnam war was about politics, no one inside of the USA was persecuted for being Vietnamese, and if there was any incidents at all it had nothing to do with the US government policies against the Vietnamese people, but against a political regime.

Please do not lump together the brutality against the Jews with the general brutality of war.

[takeo]

It's so completely different.

The German genocide against the Jews was based on hatered of a minority that lived among the Germans and Europe and contributed to these societies for centuries.

The Vietnam war was about politics, no one inside of the USA was persecuted for being Vietnamese, and if there was any incidents at all it had nothing to do with the US government policies against the Vietnamese people, but against a political regime.

Please do not lump together the brutality against the Jews with the general brutality of war.

oK, I agree that the Germans were closer to their victims. But don't forget that most germans didn't know about the barbaric treatment of the jews in the concentration camps, while the most brutal visible oppression of Jews on the streets happened in Eastern Europe.
The US-government killed millions of vietnamese, laotian, cambodian civilians for political reasons and committed terrible war-crimes. it wasn't an etnic purification, that's right, but does it make the war-crimes any less horrible?

there are no better or worse war-crimes or genocides, and they remain a taboo in most countries that committed war-crimes (the US, israel, Russia, Japan, germany, Turkey, France, etc. )

[Batman]

Originally posted by takeo
oK, I agree that the Germans were closer to their victims. But don't forget that most germans didn't know about the barbaric treatment of the jews in the concentration camps, while the most brutal visible oppression of Jews on the streets happened in Eastern Europe.


If you want to be taken seriously, then you should not lie.

It seems to me that you are not ignorant.


So please trying to lump together information as well as distort it for the sake of proving your point.

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THE GERMANS KNEW AND COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS IN THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS. AS A MATTER OF FACT THE FRENCH ALSO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS VERY EAGERLY , EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD HAVE SAVED THE JEWS, BUT THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY TO PLEASE THE GERMANS AND HANDED OVER JEWISH CHILDREN TO GO TO THE GAS CHAMBERS, EVEN THOUGH THE GERMANS DIDN'T YET REQUEST THIS.

[takeo]

EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THE GERMANS KNEW AND COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS IN THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS. AS A MATTER OF FACT THE FRENCH ALSO COLLABORATED WITH THE NAZIS VERY EAGERLY , EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD HAVE SAVED THE JEWS, BUT THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY TO PLEASE THE GERMANS AND HANDED OVER JEWISH CHILDREN TO GO TO THE GAS CHAMBERS, EVEN THOUGH THE GERMANS DIDN'T YET REQUEST THIS.

this is total BS and falsification of history. the germans cooperated in the oppression of the Jews, right, but even the neighbouring villages of concentration camps were not aware of what happened nextdoor.
your last sentence is even more ridiculous. according to Eichman in his diary the French collaborators did everything possible to deceive him and to try to invent all kind of excuses why they couldn't send more jews. in fact in France he had the least collaboration of all European countries.
Of course the behavior of those collaborators was totally unacceptable and treason, hated and despised by the French population, but even those vilains didn't collaborate fully with the extermination of the jews, not untill they were forced by direct German intervention in the last months of the war.

[Batman]

Originally posted by takeo
this is total BS and falsification of history. the germans cooperated in the oppression of the Jews, right, but even the neighbouring villages of concentration camps were not aware of what happened nextdoor.
your last sentence is even more ridiculous. according to Eichman in his diary the French collaborators did everything possible to deceive him and to try to invent all kind of excuses why they couldn't send more jews. in fact in France he had the least collaboration of all European countries.
Of course the behavior of those collaborators was totally unacceptable and treason, hated and despised by the French population, but even those vilains didn't collaborate fully with the extermination of the jews, not untill they were forced by direct German intervention in the last months of the war.

Sometimes the truth hurts, but it's better to face it than live a lie:
Hopefully although you are from France you can have the courage to believe the truth about France's crimes against the Jews during WW2. Mr. Grim is an exceptional German and the world can benefit by others like him.
READ:NO MATTER HOW THEY CHANGE HER...... (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=2950)

[takeo]

:rolleyes:
could you please select at least a scientific study with some value instead of some biased personal opinion of some nobody...

[takeo]

1000's of French lost their live by joining the resistance (both republican and communist), while many 1000's more saved the life of jews by hiding them. Your infamation is an insult to all those heroic people. france lost more people fighting the nazi's than the us!

[yehudi]

mm maybe this thread would be more interesting if we came back to the point. I think this conversation there on oppression of the Jews has already been held over and and over and over.

The Roadmap is a chance for peace.

If the US are really committed to it they have the power to force Israel to make some concessions. I think concessions have been made on the palestinians side already with their new PM . (or rather "what remains of the palestinian side")


Would be worth considering it instead of avoiding to talk about it?



A reflexion on this (Newsguy's) site: it is very patriotic when invading an arab country is on the agenda, but when Bush tries to put forward a peace plan, it turns out Newsguy fights it. The latest news (as invading Syria doesn't seem fashionable anymore) is "Another Opportunity to Miss an Opportunity" - aah it's the palestinians fault, as always -.


Sometimes being an american patriot AND an extreme-right zionist (say middle right :D ) is not that simple.




Originally posted by Communication
I don't know, I'm not feeling very positive today. I'm not either, Communication. Bring WMD proliferation into the equation too and the picture is even grimmer... anyway, Communication you are amongst those who have the courage to try to find a way out of this repression-terrorism cycle. Good luck to you

.

[humus_sapiens]

Until the Arabs give up their hope to finish the Hitler's job, and learn to compromise, any roadmap is doomed to failure.

[Leon Uris]

Until the Arabs give up their hope to finish the Hitler's job, and learn to compromise, any roadmap is doomed to failure.


The above should be amended to read:


Until the MUSLIMS give up their hope to finish the Hitler's job, and learn to compromise, any roadmap is doomed to failure.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by yehudi
Bring WMD proliferation into the equation too and the picture is even grimmer... anyway, Communication you are amongst those who have the courage to try to find a way out of this repression-terrorism cycle. Good luck to you.

I am glad you've brought up the WMD proliferation issue.
When does France is going to give up its WMD?
France doesn't have enemies that I can think off, unless france is going to sell these weapons to the Arabs.

Talking about WMD proliferation, Does Shirak is going to face an international court of justace, for supplaying Iraq, it's nuclear reactor (The one Israel later bombed), so Iraq would have the bombs to nukes Israel? Was Saddam infact, a European proxie (a failed one) made to finish off Hitler's job, and genocide the rest of the Jewish people?

I would like you not to ignore these questions, and answer them. Failur to do so, would pop up the notion, you're a hypocrat with double standared.

[takeo]

I am glad you've brought up the WMD proliferation issue.
When does France is going to give up its WMD?
France doesn't have enemies that I can think off, unless france is going to sell these weapons to the Arabs.

Talking about WMD proliferation, Does Shirak is going to face an international court of justace, for supplaying Iraq, it's nuclear reactor (The one Israel later bombed), so Iraq would have the bombs to nukes Israel? Was Saddam infact, a European proxie (a failed one) made to finish off Hitler's job, and genocide the rest of the Jewish people?

France is a legitimate possesor of nuclear weapons, according to the threaty, Israel is not. Perhaps France should face international court for providing ISRAEL with nuclear weapons?

Anyone knows that Europe doesn't want an end to Israel, only an end to occupation of the palestinian territories. Your supposing Europe supported Saddam as to "finish hitler's work" is just insane. The US supported Saddam as well, did they have the sam aim?
Europe, as well as the US, supported saddam because he had lucrative oil AND because he resisted islamic fundamentalism. Let's not be hypocrites, please???

after the gulf-war the us changed allies, because they prefere medieval dictatorships over Saddam's regime, those are more loyal and more lucrative to the us-multinationals.

[Batman]

Originally posted by takeo
Anyone knows that Europe doesn't want an end to Israel, only an end to occupation of the palestinian territories.

These are not Palestinian Arab territories but Jewish territories which originally were designated for Israel and Jordan siezed. But Jordan is not asking for these areas because they do not want the people who live in them. These areas are called Judea, Samaria and Gaza which is the West Bank of the Jordan River, a natural border between Israel and Jordan which in 1922 the British considered Jewish land and has been extracted by force from the Jewish people; because of all the bloodshed Israel has faced they agreed to trade "land for peace. in the failed Oslo deal"

There is no such people as a Palestinian people. They are ARabs that other Arabs refused to absorb and also drove out of Jordan and Lebanon.

The occupiers are the ARabs. The original place for all Arabs was Saudi Arabia and that is their HOMELAND. Even in Morocco it was the Berber population that is indigenous to the area and the ARabs took over and forced everyone to convert to Islam.

It is too bad for those ARabs whom we call Palestinian Arabs, that they were refused by their Arab 'brethren' the shelter and help that they should have received. The Arabs chose to use the Arab refugees and keep them poor and without absorbing them into their midst on purpose, as decided by the Arab League many years ago.

The result is that Israel is actually taking care of refugees that the ARab nations should have taken care of.

Arab lands forcefully drove out the Jews from all Arab lands after 1948. The ARabs ethnically cleansed the Mid East from 1,000,000 Jews and Israel absorbed them all!

Now the Arabs who did this also left the around 1/2 million Arabs to rot in refugee camps and the result is that they are now living in these conditions over 50 years. Why should this be Israel's problem?

Why do you excuse the ARabs of their responsibility?

[Mediocrates]

France is a legitimate possesor of nuclear weapons, according to the threaty, Israel is not


Based upon what? Your say so? We had this discussion and you are still wrong so it's either willfull or insipid.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Based upon what? Your say so? We had this discussion and you are still wrong so it's either willfull or insipid. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty is a major international achievement, I am surprised you do not even know it exists.

If you want more information just use the internet.... it's never too late to take some interest in the world in which we are living (when you have already accused others because of your own errors, it's never too late for an apology Mediocrates ;) ).

[Salim]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Life a b*tch, when G-d, brains and the truth, are NOT on your side!

Ahh the truth, I always liked that one most. Your truth is not my truth or anyones truth, you should know that by now.


The self admition I needed to prove your builtin anti semetism. It proves my methods and hypotesis. Now, I safly and surly wish to vote, the banning of that pile of anti semetic european called "Salim".

Neither did you draw up any methods nor any hypothesis.
Do not adorn yourself with borrowed plumes. But hey, I am sure they sound great in your ears, do they?
Oh, and I am definitely not a "pile of anti semetic european called "Salim"", no matter how hard you wish I'd be it.
Btw, what do they forum rules say about unjustified obscenities?



However I enjoyed bashing him, this tiny little victory I like better. Sadly, I can't say it was a battle of wits... cause he proved not to have any...

Yes, I like you too :)


Feer of confronting the facts? its a slipery slop you're walking on... Once a nation looses interst in Facts... it's interesting to speculate on european and Lefics mindset, given Salim's example.

It is really funny to hear you talking about facts. I am still waiting for the facts which are proving that I am an antisemit.
For only this time, do not accuse me of things i have not said.


Does the terrorist killer, is on the same moral level as his victim? Or you're too boared and lazy to care?

To begin with, beeing intelectual lazy is not something I consider civilized. Ignorace is a vice, not vertue. However, I don't blame you for being lazy, or careless about the identity of dead people far away. I admit, I care most for my own family members, then for my Jewish brotherens, then for the life and welfare of my alies, friends and those who ever cares for me and my brotherens. I sympathies with the victims of what ever human tragedy I hear about, I hope its obvious for you. I assume all, non hypocratic people think like I am. I believe Salim thinks so too... Can't hold this against him... But, if that is the case, WHAT THE HECK IS HE LOOKING FOR IN HERE???


You do know what an adjective is, do you?
Considering the nonrelated stuff you replied, you do not know what an adjective is.
Reread my statement, think about it two or three minutes, and try it again.


Wish you would never wake in the morning... (or any morning for that matter).


Tshh, now you even want me dead?
I am sure that threatening´s to kill somebody are not allowed in this forum, well at least in German forums its forbidden, dunno about your laws though...


You heard right! We're graet in partying and eating fine foods. Bad drinkers though...


See, you can reply without being nasty, I knew you could :)



Good! I guess they are all phto-copies of you, which saves me lots of internet time...

I sure hope not to meet THAT eurotrash creature ever again, not here, not any where. My job (about the hun) is done.


You guessed wrong.

Now that I am confronted with all this unjustified insults and the threatening against my physical inviolacy, I demand a clear and public apology from the person that calls himself Gilgamesh.
If the moderators of this forum think they can let him get away with this, then this is a clear sign of their inability to sustain the rules of this forum, and reveals the hypocrisy concerning the handling of Jewish and foreign users of this forum.
What I think is exactly the case.

Anyway, this wont make me leave.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Salim
I demand a clear and public apology from the person that calls himself Gilgamesh.
If the moderators of this forum think they can let him get away with this, then this is a clear sign of their inability to sustain the rules of this forum, and reveals the hypocrisy concerning the handling of Jewish and foreign users of this forum.
What I think is exactly the case.

Anyway, this wont make me leave.
You know, fueling the fire and calling for an apology is quite Arabic of you. Perhaps there is a need for increased maturity on both sides.

[reason]

Gilga...Gilga...Gilga

What did I tell you about being rude to other people? now be a good boy and apologize to Mr.Salim.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
France is a legitimate possesor of nuclear weapons, according to the threaty, Israel is not. Perhaps France should face international court for providing ISRAEL with nuclear weapons? 1. Officialy, Israel does not have WMD of any kind. That's why such treaties are of no concern for us. Israel has never signed any treaty about WMD proliferation and is not leagaly bounded for supervision of any kind.
2. France, of it's insane ragime which openly and officilay supports terrorism and rouge ragimes around the world, while ignoring human rights issues for the sake of common greed. If a nation like France is a "leagal" possesor of WMD, more over and enlighted and responsible democracy, like Israel's should be a leagal possesors of such weapon.

Anyone knows that Europe doesn't want an end to Israel, only an end to occupation of the palestinian territories. Who is these "everyone" of yours ??? I am not convinsed Europe had foresaken it's anciant goal to rid the world from Jewish existance. I do not believe that European anti semetism has vanished entirly.

Your supposing Europe supported Saddam as to "finish hitler's work" is just insane. The US supported Saddam as well, did they have the sam aim? US foreign policy at the time was wrong. The American leared their lesson, the hard way, showed repent and corrected their ways. I can not be angry with a reformed person. Also, the US hadn't proven any blunt anti semetic policy since 1967. Europe, however, is still working hard to undermind our safty and our human rights for being Jewish.

Europe, as well as the US, supported saddam because he had lucrative oil AND because he resisted islamic fundamentalism. Let's not be hypocrites, please???
OK, lets not be hypocrites. Why did France and Germany had underminded UN sanctions on Iraq. Why does France hosts a wide variaty of Islamist extremists and terror supporters? Why does France keeps on her ileagal economical ties with Iran?

Had France's only post WWII crime, was the aid to Saddam, so be it. But Frances ileagal ties to the enemy of humanity, Saddam Hussain, is only one example in a string, that prove Frances anti semetism de facto. Deeds are many times more powerful the words. The deeds are, that greed and indiferance to human lives, caused by racism, bond France and Germany to dark and evil ragimes, many of them are also dedicated to the destruction of Israel and the making of another Holocaust.

after the gulf-war the us changed allies, because they prefere medieval dictatorships over Saddam's regime, those are more loyal and more lucrative to the us-multinationals. [/B][/QUOTE]

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Salim
Now that I am confronted with all this unjustified insults and the threatening against my physical inviolacy, I demand a clear and public apology from the person that calls himself Gilgamesh. you know moderators here are sometimes doing their job in very strange ways.


Just try to look at two threads I created:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=2788
the chick that was in the way

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=2790
what is behind Bush

I never got nor warning, nor explanation and I wouldn't dream of earing an apology.




Yet there are forum rules: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=11
I sometimes feel like palestinians israeli here: you are supposed to have the same rights than jewish israelis, but ....

.

[Gilgamesh]

[obscenities and personal attacks deleted.]

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by reason
Gilga...Gilga...Gilga

What did I tell you about being rude to other people? now be a good boy and apologize to Mr.Salim.

"reason"... "reason"... "reason"...
Why don't YOU apologize for your own miserable existance? Stop wasting people time with posting meaningless grabage! Please, go and play with something poisonous, maybe something good, or useful will come up for us!

[reason]

Gilgamesh wrote :

You're a pathetic excuse for a man, un-intelegent and anti-cultural person.

Congratulations Gilgamesh you out did yourself again.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by reason
Gilgamesh wrote :

You're a pathetic excuse for a man, un-intelegent and anti-cultural person.

Congratulations Gilgamesh you out did yourself again.
i thank you for alerting me for my spelling mistake. I had fixed it to your content.

Mind you, I'm very pleased and surprized with your abilities as a speller-program substitute. I wish you good luck in your new career choise.

[Salim]

Gilgamesh, maybe not in near future, but one day you will realize that your spreading of hatred will lead you nowhere.
Your only cause seems to be the propagation of wrath amonst those who don't share your views.
You are by far the most bitter person I was ever confronted with.
For you this is not some kind of verbal exchange of blows, you do really believe in your prejudiced and vitriolic words.
People like you are very dangerous.

[takeo]

Gilgaboy, are you a real person or a character? I like your surreal humor... disturbed people can be very interesting...
Can i ask you something, have you ever been abused as a child by a European or so? (i know this kind of remarks aren't allowed by the rules of the forum, but after reading the posts of gilgamesh, which are apparently not censored, i'm actually very polite!!!he uses it all: racism, personal attacks and insults, threats, etc. )


Sadly, I'm not a hacker. I do not know your name and address, yet. Maybe someone else will be kind enough to supply me with this information. The rest is kids staff. Tell me if you have any preferances.

I see you're a peacefull man :rolleyes:

You are right, I wasn't clear enough. Europeas parties stinks because your people get heavily drunk and roll in their own vomit. (I guss they love their puke). We, most of us, drink very little, do not get drunk and have the best time in the world best parties.

Your people are ignorant, and emotionaly disturb. Can't have a conversation with someone else, without several liters of alcohol in the system. We don't.

Your people make me sick. I've seen them close in action, and I was sick.

did you vomit as well?

of course israeli's don't drink :rolleyes:
Actually if you don't like alcohol move to Saoudi Arabia, I think you'll like it there and you'll loose your prejudices about islam and Arabs (other normal people would start to hate Islam in saoudi arabia, but it's the kind of country that would fit perfectly for people like you). In France people don't vomit, perhaps it's because we drink quality alcohol.

You have earned fairly, each and every insult. You're a pathetic excuse for a man, un-intelligent and anti-cultural person. Your civilization stinks with blood. Your history is evil. Your people are decadent, drunk, haters and stupid. Your people are a mance. Prove me wrong if you can.
Personaly, I think the world would be far better and safer place, if a giant crater would repalce your country. I asure you, you won't be missed.

newsguy, ibrodsky, waky, waky, the rules of the forum, remember????????????????????????????????? i think he just violated each and every one of them.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
Gilgamesh, maybe not in near future, but one day you will realize that your spreading of hatred will lead you nowhere. Other then entertainment, and some information, forum warfare is futile. Know that I'm heavly active in political activity and I'm a party memeber. I hope that in 10 years, you'll all, here of me, in my real and full name.

Your only cause seems to be the propagation of wrath amonst those who don't share your views. you're self contradicting. funny though...

You are by far the most bitter person I was ever confronted with. You have to get out more. Your ignorance is a proof of your decadence. You have little knowlage of the real world.

For you this is not some kind of verbal exchange of blows, you do really believe in your prejudiced and vitriolic words.
People like you are very dangerous. True, usually I'm not spouting words aimlessly. I mean what I write, I belive in what I mean. Maybe it's your habit to blow empty, meaningless or futile sloagans. I am not like that.

You deliberately avoid answering my questions. Never mind me, but I wonder what the rest of this forum members think of your deliberate and reapted attempt to avoid answering my questions.

[reason]

Mind you, I'm very pleased and surprized with your abilities as a speller-program substitute. I wish you good luck in your new career choise.

Why thank you Gilga, mind if I call you that?And it would be spelled choice ;).

Now Gilga we can have some good business relationships, you spew out non-sensual nonsense, and Ill try my best to do the deciphering.

[reason]

I hope that in 10 years, you'll all, here of me, in my real and full name.

I dont think you are going anywhere in the near future, until you learn how to spell.

[takeo]

These are not Palestinian Arab territories but Jewish territories which originally were designated for Israel and Jordan siezed. But Jordan is not asking for these areas because they do not want the people who live in them. These areas are called Judea, Samaria and Gaza which is the West Bank of the Jordan River, a natural border between Israel and Jordan which in 1922 the British considered Jewish land and has been extracted by force from the Jewish people; because of all the bloodshed Israel has faced they agreed to trade "land for peace. in the failed Oslo deal"

There is no such people as a Palestinian people. They are ARabs that other Arabs refused to absorb and also drove out of Jordan and Lebanon.

The occupiers are the ARabs. The original place for all Arabs was Saudi Arabia and that is their HOMELAND. Even in Morocco it was the Berber population that is indigenous to the area and the ARabs took over and forced everyone to convert to Islam.

we had this discussions over a 1000 times, of course this is pure nonsence, and if you want to know why do a little search in the archives of this forum, even a very smart guy as newsguy can't convincingly defend such insane and fascist theories.




Now the Arabs who did this also left the around 1/2 million Arabs to rot in refugee camps and the result is that they are now living in these conditions over 50 years. Why should this be Israel's problem?

Why do you excuse the ARabs of their responsibility?

Those people had their land and house in what is currently Israel. Many still have their property papers and have never received any compensation. So it remains ISRAEL's responsability.




1. Officialy, Israel does not have WMD of any kind. That's why such treaties are of no concern for us. Israel has never signed any treaty about WMD proliferation and is not leagaly bounded for supervision of any kind.
2. France, of it's insane ragime which openly and officilay supports terrorism and rouge ragimes around the world, while ignoring human rights issues for the sake of common greed. If a nation like France is a "leagal" possesor of WMD, more over and enlighted and responsible democracy, like Israel's should be a leagal possesors of such weapon.

1) Iraq didn't sign it either, nor did North Korea as far as i remember. only France, he uS, china, GB and france are recognised as legal possessors of wMD.
2) The US supports terrorism and roughe regimes around the world as well, officially, in the past and present, for the sake of common greed. Israel by the way did so too (for example: Mobutu of Zaire, South africa, etc.)



Who is these "everyone" of yours ??? I am not convinsed Europe had foresaken it's anciant goal to rid the world from Jewish existance. I do not believe that European anti semetism has vanished entirly.

you'll never be convinced, because you base yourself on preconseptions and not on reality. Everyone who knows at least a little about Europe knows that Europeans generally are nOT anti-semitic, and that jews have a high esteem here and a priviliged position compared to other groups.(certainly in france)

US foreign policy at the time was wrong. The American leared their lesson, the hard way, showed repent and corrected their ways. I can not be angry with a reformed person. Also, the US hadn't proven any blunt anti semetic policy since 1967. Europe, however, is still working hard to undermind our safty and our human rights for being Jewish.

"showed repent"... i think their wallets showed repent since kouweit and SA were more interesting then iraq.
Some european countries payed Israel yearly billions of $, Europe is still the main trade partner of Israel, despite the many human rights abuses and uN-violations this country committed.
Europe wants essentially the same as the us, the only difference is that we say it louder: end of the occupation, withdrawel of illegal settlements, etc.

OK, lets not be hypocrites. Why did France and Germany had underminded UN sanctions on Iraq. Why does France hosts a wide variaty of Islamist extremists and terror supporters? Why does France keeps on her ileagal economical ties with Iran?

The US supported a wide variaty of Islamic extremists in afghanistan in the 80's, while currently they want to undermine un-sanctions against Iraq as well.
we undermined the sanctions because they had very negative consequences for the people of Iraq, while you wanted to starve them.
"illegal" economic ties with Iran, according to whom illegal, why illegal???????????????

[Mediocrates]

I don't expect you to acknowledge this but clearly what Arafat has just done with this integrated security committe is instantly create a body more powerful than his just annointed PM. Clearly the PM is a puppet and represents nothing. We can all go home now.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by reason
I hope that in 10 years, you'll all, here of me, in my real and full name.

I dont think you are going anywhere in the near future, until you learn how to spell. I've no problems, once I have my puny little "reason" speller avaliable. Besides, my spelling is getting better from post to post... I soon see the day when you'll need career, have you thought of beeing a door knob? or paper weight? I've got it! a road block!!! a buldozer stopper road block!!! (or a ketchop stain).

[yehudi]

Originally posted by takeo
Those people had their land and house in what is currently Israel. Many still have their property papers and have never received any compensation. So it remains ISRAEL's responsability. Just a remark: when tsahal invaded the and stormed the palestinian autority's buildings, they where not only looking for terrorist equipment.

They also destroyed many things, including important parts of the land register .




Israel's purpose is not only to expel palestinians from Palestine, but also to wipe out the memory of their existence.

Razing palestinian villages, cutting their olive trees is fine but it's not enough....


.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
we had this discussions over a 1000 times, of course this is pure nonsence, and if you want to know why do a little search in the archives of this forum, even a very smart guy as newsguy can't convincingly defend such insane and fascist theories. I find it odd, that the you, and the European left resist Jewish self determination, under the excuse of resistance to the nationhood idea, while supporting Arab nationalism.

The "Palestinians" have got NOTHING that distinct them from any other Arabs of the world. There is no reason or rational for their self determination. "Palestinians" are common Arabs who do not need an other country.

Redrawel from Judea and Samara means surrender to terrorism, and the ceasion of sites of imporant cultual, religious and historical value. The perpose of Zionism is holding to such sites. The moral reasoning for the existance of a Jewish nation state is Jews cultural, historical and religious afinity to these very sites.
Any redrawel means the practical end of Zionism.

Those people had their land and house in what is currently Israel. Many still have their property papers and have never received any compensation. So it remains ISRAEL's responsability. Nope.
No refugee, in the modern world, is left with no citizen ship and no rights, 50 years since they were displaced. Arab ragimes forbiden refugees absorbance for almost 20 years. They are the one who are responsible, not us.

Jews have no reason to appologize to any body, for our existance or our rights. We haven't chose the 48 war, nor any other war. The Arabs did, now they must pay the cost and hold responsible for their own actions. Not us.

1) Iraq didn't sign it either, nor did North Korea as far as i remember. only France, he uS, china, GB and france are recognised as legal possessors of wMD. Iraq signed its responsibilty to disarm from WMD in their surrender treaty in 1991. North Korea is breaking other threaties and "understandings" with the US and south korea. The non-proliferation treaty is not the issue. The examples you have brought, takeo are meaningless and non relevant.

Israel has no treaties or understandings or surrender treaties or any kind, with nobody.

2) The US supports terrorism and roughe regimes around the world as well, officially, in the past and present, for the sake of common greed. Israel by the way did so too (for example: Mobutu of Zaire, South africa, etc.) Israel supports no body, never did and never will. We had some limited trading tied with many nations around the world.

At any case, not Israel and not the USA have supported in any way the enemies of Europe. While Europe heavily supports most of Israel sworn enemies.

you'll never be convinced, because you base yourself on preconseptions and not on reality. Everyone who knows at least a little about Europe knows that Europeans generally are nOT anti-semitic, and that jews have a high esteem here and a priviliged position compared to other groups.(certainly in france) I don't know who your "everyone" is, however I'm quite sure HE is uninformed, as my "everyone" hold exactly the opposite views. Europe is anti semetic, and it's policy is anti semetic. Europe supports the enemies of my people. It's a fact.
Europe wants Israel to immediatly stop fighting terrorism and surrender to all the terrorists demands, starting with redrawel. It's a fact.

You may try talking people to believe for a short while, that Europe isn't anti semetic. However normal rational folk, can't ignore the facts. Facts are, europe supports Israel enemies: Syria, Iraq (until recently), Iran and many Arab terror organizations. European media is anti Zionist. Anti Israeli demonstrations are taking place all the time. Jews are murdered, synagogs put on fire, Jews attacked. Europe choose to ignore Arab racist anti semetic media, and Arab's anti Israeli policy. These are the fact to add up to the conclusion, Europe is anti semetic.

Some european countries payed Israel yearly billions of $, Incorect information. You lie.

Europe is still the main trade partner of Israel, despite the many human rights abuses and uN-violations this country committed. False information. You lie.

Also, Israel hadn't committed any UN violation, or human rights violations, given the fact israel is at war with terrorism, and not in a peace time status.

Europe wants essentially the same as the us, the only difference is that we say it louder: end of the occupation, withdrawel of illegal settlements, etc. False information. You lie.

Europe wants Israel to immediatly stop fighting terrorism and surrender to all the terrorists demands. It has always been europes possition. It is counter productive and quite anti semetic.

The US supported a wide variaty of Islamic extremists in afghanistan in the 80's, ancient history. a mistake non the less. Since the US has changed its ways, your remark is irrelevant. The problem is Europe on going support of killers of Jews.

while currently they want to undermine un-sanctions against Iraq as well. It was France who resisted the sanctions while Saddam was developing WMD, and now, they want to keep the sanctions? How hypocritical! How french!

we undermined the sanctions because they had very negative consequences for the people of Iraq, while you wanted to starve them. BS. I hope the moderator will take notice of your blunt and baceless acusation.

The fact you put no responsibilty on the Saddam's ragime, prove you to be racist too. Arabs are humans responsible for their actions.

"illegal" economic ties with Iran, according to whom illegal, why illegal??????????????? According to the UN list of terror supporting states, according to American immposed embargo, europeans are committed to as allies, and simple common sense. These tie alone prove European anti semetic and anti Israeli policy.

He who supports my ememies can not call me a friend.

[reason]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
I've no problems, once I have my puny little "reason" speller avaliable . Besides, my spelling is getting better from post to post... I soon see the day when you'll need career, have you thought of beeing a door knob? or paper weight? I've got it! a road block!!! a buldozer stopper road block!!! (or a ketchop stain).

yep, I was right you are not going anywhere in 10 years. Gilgamesh I strongly suggest you see a professional, for that ADD.

[Mediocrates]

(I've highlighted some important sections)
May 7, 2003
Women in Green Hour with Ruth Matar
Arutz Sheva English
www.IsraelNationalNews.com


The Bush administration, working with the other members of the Quartet, has now adopted the "Road Map to a Permanent Two-state Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict" as official US Middle East policy. In so doing, the United States is undermining its credibility as a nation that fights terrorism, by giving a reward to the Palestinian Authority for its almost three-year-old terrorist war against Israel.

Whatever happened to the promise of the Bush administration after 9/11 and "Operation Iraqi Freedom"? "There will be no deals with terrorists, period." Instead, the Palestinian Arab terrorists will be rewarded with a state carved out of Israeli land. Thus, there is no price whatever to pay for Arab aggression. In addition, by embracing the newly inaugurated regime of Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, Yasser Arafat's deputy of some 40 years, the Bush administration is accepting a myth of a reformed Palestinian Authority.

Just a week ago, Mike's Place, right next door to the US Embassy in Tel Aviv, was attacked by Muslim terrorists. The murderers who carried out the attack were British Muslims, imported into the Palestinian terror network as tourists. These were British citizens with valid British passports. Even after this attack where three people were murdered and many seriously injured, and Abu Mazen's meaningless condemnation of it, the Bush administration went forward with an obscene official presentation of the Road Map to the terrorist Abu Mazen. Abu Mazen is just as much a terrorist as Arafat. (The mastermind of the Munich Olympics massacre, Mohammed Daoud Dudeh, says it was Mazen who provided the money for the attack. Arafat and Abu Mazen both kissed him on the cheeks before he set off to kill 11 Israeli athletes!)

And guess who is the main architect of the Bush administration's policy toward Israel and the Palestinian Authority? The very same Colin Powell who led the previous Bush administration down the garden path in Iraq in 1991. Then, as General Colin Powell, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, he counseled George Bush, Sr., to allow Saddam to retain power, and even enabled Saddam to brutally quell Kurdish and Shiite rebellions against his rule in the aftermath of the war.

Limiting its operations to enforcing the "no-fly" zones, the US for a decade allowed Saddam to continue destabilizing the region, amassing prohibited weaponry, terrorizing his citizenry, forging alliances with groups like al-Qaida, and funding Palestinian terrorists.

Many American analysts, such as Laurie Mylroie, author of "Study of Revenge: Saddam Hussein's Unfinished War Against America", and James Woolsey, former CIA Director, strongly suspect that Iraq has been directly involved in the terror attacks against the United States:
a. the 1993 World Trade Center bombing;
b. the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing of the US Federal Building which killed 168
people;
c. the 1996 bombing of Al Khobar Base in Saudi Arabia that left 19 American
servicemen dead;
d. the 1998 bombing of the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania which killed 224
people, injuring more than 4,500;
e. the 2001, September 11 bombing of the World Trade Center and the Pentagon,
which left close to three thousand people dead and many injured.

Now, the US is following a similarly strategically ambivalent and morally questionable policy with regard to its handling of the Palestinian Authority. In orchestrating its policy with the UN, EU, and Russia - the other members of the so-called Quartet - the administration is subordinating its decision-making power to forces that share none of President George W. Bush's convictions on the necessity of fighting terror and encouraging the spread of democracy in the Arab world.

Alright, let's face reality. It is said that countries don't have friends, they only have national interests. This applies to the United States as well. But how it can be in the interest of the United States to create another Arab terror state in the Middle East, having just fought to liberate Iraq from a terror regime? This is beyond belief.

Even more difficult to understand is that Prime Minister Sharon is embracing the Road Map. How is it possible for a Jewish Prime Minister to champion a Palestinian state on Jewish land?

Sharon repeatedly says: "'I' am ready to make painful concessions." Regrettably, he has forgotten that he was elected to office as a temporary steward to care for the affairs of the Jewish Nation. However, his statements are always peppered with 'I' and 'ME', in effect making proclamations solely on "his authority" which he has assumed as Prime Minister.

Sharon has made his intentions plain and very public. In a long pre-Pesach interview with Ari Shavit for Ha'Aretz on April 13, he mentioned Shilo and Beit El as "settlements", saying, "'I' know we will have to part with some of these places. There will be a parting from places that are connected to the whole course of our history. As a Jew, this agonizes 'ME'. But, 'I' have decided to make every effort to reach a settlement. One has to view things realistically. Eventually there will be a Palestinian state. 'I' do not think that we have to rule over another people and run their lives. 'I' do not think we have the strength for that." He also refused to allow his cabinet to discuss his diplomatic plan, promising an in-depth discussion when the so-called "Road Map for Middle East Peace" is publicized. His reason for not discussing the contents of the so-called "Road Map" plan is that it might leak out to the public (imagine, letting the people of Israel and the Jews of the world know what the "Quartet" plans for them). In his HaAretz interview, Sharon said, "'I' would definitely say that we will have to take steps that are painful for every Jew and painful for 'ME' personally."

Shilo and Beit El have long passed that designation of "settlements", for they are now fully fledged towns. But, even if they were not, who in heaven's name does Sharon think he is? He seems only to be concerned with himself, 'HIS' pain and how 'HE' will be written of in history.

Sharon is above such trivial matters as "advice and consent". He refuses advice and certainly is not in the least interested in the consent of the governed. He does not consult with either the Knesset nor the People. His own Likud Party platform rejects a Palestinian state. Also, the guidelines for the formation of this current government rejects the abandoning of Jews in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

The extraordinary phenomenon is that many Jews insist on believing that Sharon "doesn't really mean it". They want to believe that Sharon is a great strategist and that he is certain that the Road Map will go the way of previous plans like the Tenet report and the Mitchell plan. Thus, the Road Map, as well, will be buried in somebody's archives.

His defenders say that Sharon is very clever - he accepts a bad plan which he knows will not materialize - and gets brownie points for it. They also believe that there will never be a Palestinian state while Sharon is Prime Minister.

But this time, Sharon is taking a big risk, which will go out of control someday. There will be a day that Sharon will no longer be Israel's Prime Minister, as he is 75 years old now. Some future Prime Minister may argue, in his own defense, that "even Sharon agreed" to give away vital interests.

Meanwhile Sharon neglects to educate his own people, on what and why to fight for.

The majority of the People of Israel agree with DAVID BEN GURION, founding father and first Prime Minister of Israel, who said this about territorial concessions:
"No Jew has the right to relinquish the right of the Jewish People over the whole Land of Israel. No Jewish body has such authority, not even the whole Jewish People has the authority to waive the right to the Land of Israel for future generations for all time."
(Zionist Congress Zurich 1937)

[takeo]

I find it odd, that the you, and the European left resist Jewish self determination, under the excuse of resistance to the nationhood idea, while supporting Arab nationalism.

the European left is generally not resisting a jewish state, but it believes this should not happen at the expense of the palestinian people (this is also the point of view of the israeli left by the way, before you start complaining about anti-semitism, etc. oh, i forgot those are self-denying traitors :rolleyes: ).


The "Palestinians" have got NOTHING that distinct them from any other Arabs of the world. There is no reason or rational for their self determination. "Palestinians" are common Arabs who do not need an other country.

in other posts I made clear that this isn't true at all, Pal'estinians are a separate Arab-speaking people with a separate history. Some Arab countries are artificial, Palestine was not.

Redrawel from Judea and Samara means surrender to terrorism, and the ceasion of sites of imporant cultual, religious and historical value. The perpose of Zionism is holding to such sites. The moral reasoning for the existance of a Jewish nation state is Jews cultural, historical and religious afinity to these very sites.
Any redrawel means the practical end of Zionism.

You don't understand the positions taken by herzl and the first zionists. Those people were NOT religious and didn't choose israel because it's the Jewish Holy land, they were jewish nationalists and wanted a nation for the jews, they also tought about other places such as uganda or argentina (the last one was probably a better idea as almost noone lived there, so they didn't have to share the land with anyone).

Nope.
No refugee, in the modern world, is left with no citizen ship and no rights, 50 years since they were displaced. Arab ragimes forbiden refugees absorbance for almost 20 years. They are the one who are responsible, not us.

Jews have no reason to appologize to any body, for our existance or our rights. We haven't chose the 48 war, nor any other war. The Arabs did, now they must pay the cost and hold responsible for their own actions. Not us.

50 years means nothing in human history. if the jews have the right to return after 2000 years than the Palestinians certainly have the right to return after 50 years in exile.
Jews shouldn't apologise, but the israeli government should. It's not because arab leaders started a war that ordinary palestinian civilians had to suffer the israeli revenge.

Iraq signed its responsibilty to disarm from WMD in their surrender treaty in 1991. North Korea is breaking other threaties and "understandings" with the US and south korea. The non-proliferation treaty is not the issue. The examples you have brought, takeo are meaningless and non relevant.

Israel has no treaties or understandings or surrender treaties or any kind, with nobody.

Iraq promised to diarm but oNLY after the gulf-war. the Iraqi DID disarm, as currently becomes clear.
Israel promised to regard the uN-resolutions and UN-charters, and has the same duty as any other country not to possess or proliferate nuclear bombs nor violating un-resolutions.

Israel supports no body, never did and never will. We had some limited trading tied with many nations around the world.

Than you don't know the history of your own country(you're Israeli, right?), or the media in your country is so bound to the government that the reality didn't came trough. Israel actively armed the Mobutu-troops in ancient Zaire, Israel also had extensive links to south Africa, both militarily and economical. (not surprisingly really, South Africans had a lot of practise how to handle a hostile population!)

At any case, not Israel and not the USA have supported in any way the enemies of Europe. While Europe heavily supports most of Israel sworn enemies.

The US actively supported the ennemies of Russia, also a part of europe, isn't it? the uS also supported the military regimes in Turkey and greece, ennemies of the EU AND of their own population.

I don't know who your "everyone" is, however I'm quite sure HE is uninformed, as my "everyone" hold exactly the opposite views. Europe is anti semetic, and it's policy is anti semetic. Europe supports the enemies of my people. It's a fact.
Europe wants Israel to immediatly stop fighting terrorism and surrender to all the terrorists demands, starting with redrawel. It's a fact.

your everyone has probably never visited Europe or certainly never talked to europeans. he takes his information purely based on Europe's external policy, but selectively interpreted trough his very coloured glasses.
Europe wants Israel to withdraw to the recognised borders of 1967, while the terrorists wants the annihilation of Israel, a demand that has been strongly rejected by all European countries.



You may try talking people to believe for a short while, that Europe isn't anti semetic. However normal rational folk, can't ignore the facts. Facts are, europe supports Israel enemies: Syria, Iraq (until recently), Iran and many Arab terror organizations. European media is anti Zionist. Anti Israeli demonstrations are taking place all the time. Jews are murdered, synagogs put on fire, Jews attacked. Europe choose to ignore Arab racist anti semetic media, and Arab's anti Israeli policy. These are the fact to add up to the conclusion, Europe is anti semetic.

europe doesn't support terror organisations, while we have normal relations with Iran and Syria(as the US as well untill recently, remember syria joined the us during the first Gulf-war). syria is still an ennemy of israel because Israel occupies a part of syria, syria wouldn't be an ennemy of Israel if israel wouldn't occupy a part of Syria.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some european countries payed Israel yearly billions of $,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incorect information. You lie.

Well, I think even the moderators of this forum know about the billions germany gave to Israel... and i don't think you can accuse them of being pro-Europe. you are clearly misinformed by your media.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Europe is still the main trade partner of Israel, despite the many human rights abuses and uN-violations this country committed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

False information. You lie.

all right, let's check the CIA worldfactbook.
"Imports - partners:
US 23.5%, Benelux 10.2%, Germany 7.9%, uk 6.7%, Switzerland 6.0%, Italy 5.2% (2001) "

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html#Econ


Also, Israel hadn't committed any UN violation, or human rights violations, given the fact israel is at war with terrorism, and not in a peace time status.

check for yourself on the amnesty International website, at least if you have a lot of time to go trough all the reports concerning Israel.......

ancient history. a mistake non the less. Since the US has changed its ways, your remark is irrelevant. The problem is Europe on going support of killers of Jews.

The US hasn't changed it ways. it supported the KLA, it supports Cuban terrorists, etc.
Erope doesn't support organisations that operate by killing Jewish civilians, Europe never supported terrorism.

It was France who resisted the sanctions while Saddam was developing WMD, and now, they want to keep the sanctions? How hypocritical! How french!

saddam was develloping WMD, so where are they now?????????
the us itself said sanctions can't be lifted untill un-weapons inspectors declared Iraq to be free of WMD. for once i agree...

BS. I hope the moderator will take notice of your blunt and baceless acusation.

The fact you put no responsibilty on the Saddam's ragime, prove you to be racist too. Arabs are humans responsible for their actions.

When the moderators start reading your racist insults, baseless accusations, personal attacks, threads, etc. they'll be too busy to notice my posts...
Arabs aren't the same as Saddam (saddam and you seem to be the only ones thinking so) while the responsabilit for continuing the sanctions was the responsability of the us and GB.


According to the UN list of terror supporting states, according to American immposed embargo, europeans are committed to as allies, and simple common sense. These tie alone prove European anti semetic and anti Israeli policy.

He who supports my ememies can not call me a friend.

the problem is that you see ennemies everywhere, any state that doesn't agree to your foreign policy is an ennemy, while we see an ennemy as someone who wants to attack you. we agreed to the war against OBL and the taliban, because those are the only real ennemies of the us, iraq never threatened the us in any way, while it was constantly under US-attack.

does the un-list of terror states include Iran? American embargoes don't concern us, they're not international nor legitimate, such as the completely ridiculous embargo against Cuba.

[danholo]

Also, Israel hadn't committed any UN violation, or human rights violations, given the fact israel is at war with terrorism, and not in a peace time status.

check for yourself on the amnesty International website, at least if you have a lot of time to go trough all the reports concerning Israel.......

Israel is regarded to have commited massive human rights violations when for example a reporter has been beaten when denied access through a checkpoint. When 20,000 innocent men, women and children are slaughtered mercilessly 100 miles north, not even a wimper.

takeo, you simply cite as if Israel was evil and is committing "human rights violations" just for the fun of it.
I know Israel has committed human rights violations. I don't see house demolitions as an effective tactic and is clearly a way of collective punishment for example.

But likewise with the most adamant pro-Israel supporter you completely demonize the other side. And that's the problem. You come here, posing like some crusader of justice and showing the divinity of your religion, when you are clearly part of the problem!

[takeo]

But likewise with the most adamant pro-Israel supporter you completely demonize the other side. And that's the problem. You come here, posing like some crusader of justice and showing the divinity of your religion, when you are clearly part of the problem!

I don't think that i did so. I was just replying to the very one-sided posts by gilgamesh and alfred.
but on other occasions i have actually condamned the terrorists killing innocent people, and i have agreed to israel's right on security, so i'm not completely demonising the other side. The problem is that for the current rulers in Israel, according to me, security isn't the main concern. Their attachment to the conquered lands goes much deeper.

[Canajew]

Originally posted by takeo
the European left is generally not resisting a jewish state, but it believes this should not happen at the expense of the palestinian people (this is also the point of view of the israeli left by the way, before you start complaining about anti-semitism, etc. oh, i forgot those are self-denying traitors :rolleyes: ).


given the fact that Palestinian claims extend to all of Isarel, it must necessarily be true that the existence of a jewish state is at the expense of the Palestinian people. Thus, they are in effect, if not in intent, resisting a Jewish state.


in other posts I made clear that this isn't true at all, Pal'estinians are a separate Arab-speaking people with a separate history. Some Arab countries are artificial, Palestine was not.


But not all people who claim to be Palestinian can trace themselves to this lineage. I believe the argument that is generally made is that most "Palestinians" were only recent immigrants to Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

And other than the fact that they have been used as pawns by the rest of the Arab world, they do not appear particularly distinct at the present time.

I believe that it is the Israelis who have managed to cement the self-identity of "Palestinian" within the Palestinian population. Were it not for the Zionists, the Palestinians would not have developed their collective identity, and almost certainly would not have had any sort of independence or independent identity from other Arab nations.


You don't understand the positions taken by herzl and the first zionists. Those people were NOT religious and didn't choose israel because it's the Jewish Holy land, they were jewish nationalists and wanted a nation for the jews, they also tought about other places such as uganda or argentina (the last one was probably a better idea as almost noone lived there, so they didn't have to share the land with anyone).


There is a difference between looking at all potential or feasible options and not caring which one is ultimately adopted.

Anyways, in your response you have fixed your sights on an only marginally relevant portion of the piece you chose to analyze. The ultimate point of the quote you responded to was that any withdrawal would only constitute surrender to terrorism, and would thus both not help to end the conflict and not be in the Israeli's best interests.

And just because the originator of a movement (or of a law) intends for its goals and purposes to be one thing, it does not mean that as the movement (or the case law) evolves that the purposes cannot be expanded to include other things.


50 years means nothing in human history. if the jews have the right to return after 2000 years than the Palestinians certainly have the right to return after 50 years in exile.


But the Jews would argue that they never really left. Apparently Jerusalem was majority Jewish for quite some time.

Anyways, whether the Jews had the right to return is moot. the Palestinians certainly do not have a "right", as that term is generally interpreted, to return to Israel proper.




Jews shouldn't apologise, but the israeli government should. It's not because arab leaders started a war that ordinary palestinian civilians had to suffer the israeli revenge.


This is not true. Were it not for the Arab world's continuous effort to destroy Israel, the West bank and Gaza would never have been occupied by the Israelis. Were it not for the Arab world's use of Palestinians as pawns in their ongoing efforts to destroy Israel, the Palestinians would not be the hateful, vengeful populace that they are today. And were the dominant Palestinian culture not one of Martyrdom and violence and death, the Israelis would not have had to fight back as they have. Thus, the Arab world is the "but for" cause of Palestinian suffering. Were it not for that, the Palestinians would not be suffering right now.

And be careful when you use the term revenge. I believe that actions which are intended as a deterent are not truly revenge. Example. You punch me. I punch you back harder, so that you will know that if you hit me, I will retaliate. Counter this with: You hit me. I know you are not going to hit me again, or that your chances of hitting me are negligable. I hit you back to make myself feel better. This is revenge. the first example is not - it is a rational response to a continuous dynamic strategic interaction between two actors. And when the actors are not individuals but national or social groups, differentiation between individuals is not always possible. But if the deterent effect remains, the act is not one of revenge. (More of a tit-for-tat strategy)


Iraq promised to diarm but oNLY after the gulf-war. the Iraqi DID disarm, as currently becomes clear.


I assume you mean: since they have not found anything, and since they will never find anything, they must have disarmed in the past. This is a falacious argument. The conclusion does not necissarily flow from the premise.


Israel promised to regard the uN-resolutions and UN-charters, and has the same duty as any other country not to possess or proliferate nuclear bombs nor violating un-resolutions.


I assume when you say UN resolutions you mean UN security council resolutions, as regular UN resolutions have no legal weight. And isn't there a difference between UN security council resolutions made under different titles? I thought one was binding while the other was not. And doesn't resolution 242 (which is one of the things you are talking about, I would think), place obligations on all parties to the 1967 war? Is Israel the only party which has not complied?

With respect to nuclear weapons, doesn't a democratically elected representative government have its highest duty towards its population? This is not to say it should do what the people want, rather it should do what is in the people's best interests (thus representative democracy, not direct democracy). In a situation where something is condemned internationally but is perceived to be absolutely essential to protect a population, do you think the government has a higher duty to international law or to the people international law was developed to protect - for without people, law would be pointless.

Anyways, the UN is only a marginally functional institution anyways. doesn't a democratic nation's elected government have a higher duty to act in what it perceivesd to be the best interests of its population, especially when faced with decisions from such a flawed institution as the UN security council.

Can I ask you something. You don't agree with the legality of invading Iraq. Fair enough. Assume this to be true. Now, if the US had successfully bribed enough countries on the security council to win a vote authorizing force, would the war then have been legal. I would think you would be inclined to answer yes. I, on the other hand, assuming again that the war was illegal, do not believe that a political system so vulnerable to manipulation and corruption as the UN security council imparts any sort of moral legitimacy on the actions which it authorizes. Such actions are, in my opinion, right or wrong regardless of what the UN security council has to say. Whether they come down on one side or another is irrelevant to the morality of any particular action.

And when the security council pays a country like Israel such disproportionate attention, coupled with the thinly (if at all) veiled hostility to Israel within the general assemly since the 1940's (primarily for strategic geopolitical reasons (i.e. oil) more than true compassion for human suffering - the USSR never cared about anyone's suffering ever unless they could leverage it, and from what I can see they, and the Chinese, and the French, and even the US (though to a lesser extent - they are more likely to stand with people because they beleive it to be right) still largely act this way), why should a democratically elected government which rightly perceives a security threat pay any attention to this organization when it tells Israel to only take actions which make her more vulnerable to such a threat?


Than you don't know the history of your own country(you're Israeli, right?), or the media in your country is so bound to the government that the reality didn't came trough. Israel actively armed the Mobutu-troops in ancient Zaire, Israel also had extensive links to south Africa, both militarily and economical. (not surprisingly really, South Africans had a lot of practise how to handle a hostile population!)


You are, of course, correct. However, all countries in the world have engaged in real-politik over the years. The US did it to contain the soviets, the soviets did it (with the Arabs) to keep the US in check. The French can't seem to stop, even though I am not really sure what they are trying to do.

Now today things are, in my opinion, different, and no country in the world should leverage a foreign conflict to their advatage any more. But what was in the past must be analyzed by past standards. And you cannot only single out one country and remove the context within which they acted. It results in a misrepresentation.

[yehudi]

well answered tak, as always

Originally posted by takeo
Some european countries payed Israel yearly billions of $, Europe is still the main trade partner of Israel, despite the many human rights abuses and uN-violations this country committed. Just one remark: I think you should check the "billions $" it's a lot of money.

If you sum up trade exchanges that could be
Lets see: CIA factbook
Imports $30.8 billion
biggest single european country share : Germany 7.9%


makes USD 2.4 bn per year. Yes it works


But billions USD yearly mean a lot of money. This cannot be in subsidies (that would be millions USD or EUR).
The order of magnitude of US yearly subsidies to Israel I have in mind is USD 5 millions. I dunno if I am right.

But of course there are also loans to Israel garanteed by the US treasury, weapons loans and discount deals and so on....




As far as I know Europe is the biggest trade partner of Israel, while Israel is a tiny part of Europe's FX.
To get the roadmap going, the US can put pressure on Israel through subsidies, while Europe can act better through trade...


.

[Canajew]

The US actively supported the ennemies of Russia, also a part of europe, isn't it? the uS also supported the military regimes in Turkey and greece, ennemies of the EU AND of their own population.


you are obfuscating. He obviously meant the NATO part of Europe, and so no, not supporting the USSR (or the warsaw pact) does not mean that the US supported enemies of Europe. And by the way, opposing the USSR WAS showing support for the Warsaw Pact countires, which are now quite happy being free.

And if we didn't screw up Russia's privatization so badly, the US would have been doing the Soviet public a favour too.


your everyone has probably never visited Europe or certainly never talked to europeans. he takes his information purely based on Europe's external policy, but selectively interpreted trough his very coloured glasses.


But there is a difference between individual views and the dominant view of the polity. Just like not all Palestinians are violent sociopaths, yet such violent sociopaths are treated as the ideal by palestinian society in inculcating views in their young people (look at trading cards of suicide bombers as a good example - not quite I want to be like Mike). Just like not all people in the US are "warmongers" but their dominant culture may be (I don't think it is, but the example helps illustrate my point regardless)


Europe wants Israel to withdraw to the recognised borders of 1967, while the terrorists wants the annihilation of Israel, a demand that has been strongly rejected by all European countries.


The 1967 borders were never recognized by anyone in the Arab world. They were armistance lines. Armistance lines are different that recognized borders. You seem to be a big believer in international law, yet with that perspective I would have expected you to make such a distinction.

And with respect to the terrorist goals vs. European goals, you are, again, quite correct. Europe just wants this problem to go away. they do not want anyone to disappear. Problem is that they don't have the slightest idea how to make things better, and everything they do only makes it worse. It's been like that since they started letting international terrorists go in the 1970s. And where Europe's policy objectives would only advance the cause of the terrorists, rather than their real objective, they are de facto supporters of the terrorists' goals, in actions rather than in intent.

But from some of the posts I have seen of yours dealing with the death of Palestinian civilians in Israeli operations, you do not seem to care about the intent of a government, rather you seem only concerned with the effect of such actions. If this is, in fact, your position, isn't it inconsistent to evaluate the Israeli's by the impact of their actions, while evaluating others by their intent, and evaluating the Palestinian terrorists by an entirely different standard again.


europe doesn't support terror organisations, while we have normal relations with Iran and Syria(as the US as well untill recently, remember syria joined the us during the first Gulf-war). syria is still an ennemy of israel because Israel occupies a part of syria, syria wouldn't be an ennemy of Israel if israel wouldn't occupy a part of Syria.


Please note here that you have switched back to talking about Europe as a polity, not as a collection of individuals. Some Europeans DO support terrorist groups. Some US citizens do to. This does not mean that Europe or the US supports terrorism. Didn't you criticize earlier for someone judging Europe on what its polity acts like rather than on what individuals believe?

the part about Syria is actually quite funny. I don't recal the Israeli occupying the Golan pre-1967, and I do not recal the Syrians reacting extremely favourably to Barak's offer to return the Golan. Also, haven't the exact same claims been made about Lebanon. that worked out splendid, no?


Well, I think even the moderators of this forum know about the billions germany gave to Israel... and i don't think you can accuse them of being pro-Europe. you are clearly misinformed by your media.


I know about it. But the media comment is problematic. You are attacking a perspective by attacking the media at his disposal. Wouldn't the only reasonable extension here be that he must just not have exposed himself to the right media, didn't read that article etc.?

that would be like saying that if someone has a communist view in the US that it is because of the US media, which is clearly incorrect, it is in spite of the media.

As an aside, I have gathered from some of the posts on this site that you are a communist. I would be one too, if I thought it was a good thing to have communism. My question is this. It has been my observation that people on the left in general tend to know very little about how the economy works on both the macro and the micro level. While the left publishes prolifically on the failure of markets to achieve various objectives (which the market obviously does, the market is only so good as the regulatory policy which underlies it, and fails VERY often from both an efficiency and an equity perspective), I am curious as to how communism would functionally work in practice. How, for example, would they motivate me to work 60+ hourse per week rather than 30 (or 20 or 10 or 0) if I get the same level of resources back in exchange? And why would anyone do anything dangerous for work if they don't get extra pay for it. And how does the economy adjust to dynamic factors like new technology and innovative processes, if there is no incentive to take risks in implementing innovation?

If you could point me to some information, i would appreciate it, but please, no propaganda. I am looking for rational analysis, not unbridled idealism.

Thanks

[Canajew]

Originally posted by yehudi
To get the roadmap going, the US can put pressure on Israel through subsidies, while Europe can act better through trade...


Yehudi,

I'm a little disappointed you didn't continue the back and forth we had in the "Implications of a Palestinian State" string in the "Israeli-Arab Conflict" section. It was my first set of posts, I tried pretty hard, and I thought the discussion was potentially quite productive. I would also still be interested in some criticism, if you or anyone else is interested.

On the issue at hand, you are right, that the US and EU can do these things to get the road-map going. But going where? Are you of the belief that the primary obsticle to peace is Israeli obfuscation?

If you are, I would be interested in learning how the Palestinians would demiliterize their culture and cease to be a threat to Israeli security. Without this, the road map will only make the violence worse.

May I ask you as well, whether you believe that Israel has a right to protect her sovereignty and population? If you believe she does, which I assume you do, when Israel withdraws and the violence continues unabated, and continues to be supported by the population writ large and the Palestinian authority, what do you think Israel would be justified in doing to stop it?

And how would this be different than the last time, where Israel offered peace and the Palestinians were not ready for it?

And how are they ready now when they were not ready a couple of years ago? If anything, they seem to have moved quite a bit backwards on the spectrum of civilized people. In fact, they may now be on the lowest rung. Not the kind of population I would want to grant sovereign authority next to my border knowing that they (or at least substantial proportions of them which are unopposed by their political authorities) desire nothing more than my complete destruction.

Now obviously you and I would disagree on this, but I think the biggest obstacle to peace is the Palestinian people themselves. They are not ready for peace. They may never be ready for peace. They cannot contemplate Jews living in their land, yet cannot contemplate palestinians not "returning" to Israel. They cannot contemplate concessions. they continue to preach hatred and inculcate their children with lies. they continue to glorify the deaths of civilians and they continue to encourage their young people to die for the PR. The continue to live in the polar opposite of a "civil society", and do not appear to show any inclination to move towards that objective. But it is not for Israel to make them ready, it is for them to do themselves.

Israel cannot let them be free until they cease posing a threat. And they cannot cease posing a threat until they reform themselves. And occupation does not necessarily lead to incivility, nor independence to civility. Tibet and Rwanda are good, though not the only, illustrations.

By the way, in my opinion, the Palestinians have no idea of the best way to get stuff from Jews: GUILT. Were the Palestinians to have thrown all their weapons out on the street, renounced violence copmpletely AND REALLY, GENUINELLY MEANT IT, and started marching with flowers singing we shall overcome and that sort of thing, while at the same time offering Israel true and genuine peace and cooperation, the Palestinians would have been free a long time ago. They would likely, in fact, have been closer today to the Israelis than to the rest of the Arab world, which has used them as pawns for 50+ years and generally doesn't like them very much. but that was not the path they chose. And it is not for Israel to make them change paths now. they must be the ones to do it.

Progressing with the road maop before Palestinians civilize their own society will only result in more violence and bloodshed. And nobody wants that, right?

[Salim]

The Palestinians are obviously not able to reform themselves as you demand it.
They are living in an environment that mostly creates hate and wrath. The younger generations were raised by death and destruction.
So how to solve that?
Well thats the 1 million dollar question.
The current situation of suicide attacks and retaliations will lead nowhere but to even more hate towards each other.
The only potential hope that comes to my mind would be an attempt of a piecewise rapprochement.
But then again people get killed and all the effort was useless as both sides make too great demands.
The claims have to be lowered and even if people get killed the process has to go on.
Quite a wishful thinking...

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by Salim

The current situation of suicide attacks and retaliations will lead nowhere but to even more hate towards each other.

As 99% of sheep think, israeli army 'attacks' on pals are NOT retaliation, they are PREVENTION to stop more suicide attacks. OK
get it through your thick skull!!!

[Canajew]

Originally posted by richcrassus
As 99% of sheep think, israeli army 'attacks' on pals are NOT retaliation, they are PREVENTION to stop more suicide attacks. OK
get it through your thick skull!!!

Though crass, rich has a point. There is clearly a difference in both scope and intent between sending in commandos to blow up random houses in retaliation for foreign attacks (as the Israelis did in the 1950s and 60's) and sending in commandos to pre-empt a terrorist or guerilla operation.

Where people choose to ignore this distinction they only undermine their credibility with respect to other issues.

I believe a case can be made that blowing up suicide bombers houses is retaliation. However, sending in the army to rout out terrorist groups, to close munitions plants and to destroy infrastructure that is used to facilitate the inflow of weapons and the hiding of militants, as well as efforts to disrupt the chain of command and communications lines is NOT retaliation. It make be in response to the manifested threat that the terrorists had just previously demonstrated, but such actions are clearly meant to do more than make credible a tit-for-tat strategy.

[Mediocrates]

I would argue that. Blowing up terrorists is not retaliation it is merely a way to fight terrorism which is ensconced in human personalities and contacts. Terrorism is a face to face business. Kill the people, crush the organization. People seem to have some moral hesitation when the bullet already has someone's name on as opposed to simply flying around until it hits someone. This I will never understand.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1052446729191

The search for an adult identity, an oppressive environment, and a terrorist faction: these are the three factors that Professor Mark Harrison, an economic historian at Warwick University, suggests contribute to suicide terrorism.

In his paper "The Logic of Terrorism" published in the Royal United Services Institute Security Monitor and also available online, Harrison expresses skepticism that the notion of 72 virgins in paradise is what motivates the suicide phenomenon.

"As an economist, I try to understand the world in terms of people following their self-interest," Harrison explained to The Economist. How to resolve the seeming contradiction of ending one's life in order to serve one's self-interest? People, when growing up, have an interest in establishing an identity, Harrison points out. "It's hard to construct an identity in a society where nothing works and opportunities are severely restricted. I see [suicide terrorism] as a contract between the young person and the terrorist faction to exchange life for identity. He will die to promote the faction's terrorist objectives. In return, the faction agrees to affirm the volunteer's identity in the community as a warrior martyr."

Terrorist leaders may not be interested in winning territory as much as in maintaining a semi-lawless environment where they have power and influence, Harrison told JTA. "You must distinguish between the overt and actual aims of terrorism" he said. "Establishing a Palestinian state may not be the aim. There are clearly figures within Palestinian society who gain from there not being a peaceful settlement."

[yehudi]

Although there are some interesting points here, I strongly object to an economist claiming he can do the job of sociologists, anthropologists or psychologist.

Economy simply do not have the tools to express things related to culture, identity, legitimacy and such majors concepts.



Maybe you use your pocket calculator to "maximise your self-interest" and "establish an identity" all the time, Mediocrates (I'm not that sure of this).


But terrorists don't. Neither do the people in Gaza strip who Israel is turning into terrorists in order to destroy them on that ground.
But well, if new ideas can help us acquire humanistic values and broaden our mind away from your black-and-white world...

.

[Mediocrates]

Well I admire your ability to be that cheerful when you're insulting. But don't sell economics short. The last three Nobel Prizes for Economics were about sociological decision processes.


BTW I am an economist by training. :cool:

[Canajew]

Originally posted by yehudi
Although there are some interesting points here, I strongly object to an economist claiming he can do the job of sociologists, anthropologists or psychologist.

Economy simply do not have the tools to express things related to culture, identity, legitimacy and such majors concepts.


This is not true. I have an MA in Economics myself, so i know a little about microeconomics and consumer behaviour. basically the argument is this: Given peoples tastes and preferences, an individual would react in way X to a given incentive or set of incentives.

Now obviously economics has little to say about WHY a person has the particular tastes and preferences that they have, and this is for the phychologists and the sociologists to figure out (and maybe the evolutionary biologists too), but given the fact that a person has a particular set of tastes and preferences, they will, assuming that they are boundedly rational, react to incentives in a given way.


Maybe you use your pocket calculator to "maximise your self-interest" and "establish an identity" all the time, Mediocrates (I'm not [B]that sure of this).

But terrorists don't. Neither do the people in Gaza strip who Israel is turning into terrorists in order to destroy them on that ground.
But well, if new ideas can help us acquire humanistic values and broaden our mind away from your black-and-white world...


If the terrorists are not acting irrationally (and they are making rational decisions based on their perceptions, beliefs and information) then economics does have something to say about both the incentives that lead to terrorism and, by extension, how to get terrorism to stop.

Lots of people seem to think that providing people with jobs and money will reduce their inclination towards being terrorists. I personally believe that this is, in general, unsubstantiated. However, this is an economics argument. It is an argument that by making the person better off in his or her ability to achieve other desires, the option of terrorism would become relatively less desirable.

And your little piece about how Israel is turning them into terrorists on purpose to justify its own actions is patently ridiculous, and if this is in reality your perspective, I would suggest you back up a few levels and rexamine your justifications for this opinion. It is sheer and utter nonsense. Or maybe the Palestinians engage in terrorism so that Isarel will respond, thereby increasing the sympathy the Palestinians get among "enlightened" Europeans; and maybe the Arabs act the way they do in order to get Israel to fight back so that it can demonize her some more - oh, wait, THATS what has actually happens. Examine the parties behaviour afresh and you will, were you impartial and inclined to rational and impartial anaysis, undoubtedly come to this conclusion.

You can blame israel all you want, the Palestinians sure do - all it does is make resolution of the underlying issues (i.e. the reprehansible set of mores and values of the Palestinian polity and their lack of willingness to make true and genuine peace) and thus the ultimate resolution of the conflict more difficult.

But as bloodthirsty as you seem to believe Israel is, the Israelis do not celibrate when innocents are killed. they may not care so much, but it is the Palestinians who revel in the suffering of innocents. the Israelis are just trying to find a way out. And a way out for the Palestinians only is not a way out. Israel must protect her citizens. If the Palestinians cannot offer peace, the conflict will never be resolved.

Israel; does not want to destroy the Palestinians. But the Palestinian polity and terrorist groups certainly want to destroy Israel, and are prepared to destroy themselves in order to do it.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Professor Mark Harrison, an economic historian at Warwick University, suggests contribute to suicide terrorism. ...
I am sure this guy has some insight to economics, but does he understand fanaticism and the power of religious leaders over those who have become so emotionally invested that they see their destiny in the actions they take?

Originally posted by yehudi
... the people in Gaza strip who Israel is turning into terrorists in order to destroy them on that ground. ...
Israel is not turning anyone into a terrorist. Terrorism is their choice, be it an ill advised and immoral one. Why do you seek to legitimize terror by blaming it on someone else? When will you call for the terrorist to take responsibility for his own actions? When will you summon the intestinal fortitude to call for terrorist leaders adn agitators to be held accountable for the violence they spread?

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
The Palestinians are obviously not able to reform themselves as you demand it.
They are living in an environment that mostly creates hate and wrath. Was that so before the Intefada had begun?
What about the two britons, that one of them managed to slaughter 3 Jews? Where these murderers under "enviorement"?
Israelis are also living in an enviroment that create hate. How come you don't see Israeli terror attacks? You can't imagion the degree of hate we Jews have for Europe. Do you see one Jewish mass murderer in Europe?

The younger generations were raised by death and destruction. Because your goverment pays for their education! Germany pays for anti semetic incitemnt and education for hate in the PA education schools.

So how to solve that? Bomb drezden as a message, is a start. Arrest and execute Arafat and his cohorts. I believe that following the gulf war, the danger of regional war is much weaker.

On long distance, Arab and European counties should Absorb any Arab who wishes to leave. Israel should offer money to arab property, to help these Arabs a fresh start in Egypt, Jorden or Germany.

The current situation of suicide attacks and retaliations will lead nowhere but to even more hate towards each other.
The only potential hope that comes to my mind would be an attempt of a piecewise rapprochement.
But then again people get killed and all the effort was useless as both sides make too great demands.
The claims have to be lowered and even if people get killed the process has to go on.
Quite a wishful thinking...

Here is a solution for you: Arab should stop killing Jews. I serves them wrong. Arab hurt them selves more then they hurt us, with these mass murders. The only motivation of terrorism is hate.

The same way we can not cure Anti semetism, Salim is a prime example of that. We can't prevent people from hate. The only one cure known to science for an inscane hater is 0.22 bulltet.

[Salim]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
The only one cure know to scient to inscane hater is 0.22 bulltet.

Your obsession to kill me is really impressive.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
Your obsession to kill me is really impressive.

Don't worry, you are not special or an exception in my eyes. There is nothing distinctive about you. I want to kill all Anti semetics, where ever and whoever they are: Arabs, Germans, other Europeans, KKK... you name it, I'll do it...

Sadly, I'm afraid I don't quite have the means to do so, as yet... but, I am pushing toward that goal, an I trust my technology and power of will.

If there is justace in the world, then I will have my revange fullfield.

We have a saying in Hebrew: Ze'hor a'sher A'sa le'ha ha'A'ma'lek.
I live by that. Its taken from the bible, from the Torah...

[Salim]

No matter how often you repeat it, I won't become an anti-Semit :) .
Anyway I am fairly surprised of the absence of your wish to eradicate whole Germany.
You should implement that in your new mantra, so you can potentize your hate and bitterness.

[takeo]

Lots of people seem to think that providing people with jobs and money will reduce their inclination towards being terrorists. I personally believe that this is, in general, unsubstantiated. However, this is an economics argument. It is an argument that by making the person better off in his or her ability to achieve other desires, the option of terrorism would become relatively less desirable.

perhaps the terrorists themselves won't cange their behavior if they become wealthy, but surely terrorism will have much less popular support. And as became clear everywhere in the world, terrorism without popular support is doomed to fail.
what are the most "succesfull" terrorist groups? Right... Al Quaida, Hamas, etc.

Don't worry, you are not special or an exception in my eyes. There is nothing distinctive about you. I want to kill all Anti semetics, where ever and whoever they are: Arabs, Germans, other Europeans, KKK... you name it, I'll do it...

Sadly, I'm afraid I don't quite have the means to do so, as yet... but, I am pushing toward that goal, an I trust my technology and power of will.

If there is justace in the world, then I will have my revange fullfield.

So the Arabs are the only extremists? :rolleyes:

[Salim]

Originally posted by takeo

So the Arabs are the only extremists? :rolleyes:


No, you don't understand him.
He is on a God-given mission.

And when he finally comes at night to slit the throats of all those missguided creatures, he shall praise the name of his God and thank him for the strengh he was given to fullfill his orders.

When I think of Gilgamesh, I see somebody who is ambushing a Palestinian settlement for the cause of retal.... err prevention.

Maybe in ten years when he is Prime Minister of Israel, he shall use the God-given power of nuclear weapons to waste what there was once called Europe.

If you ever had such dreams Gilgamesh, think about your life and be ashamed.

[takeo]

so sorry for Gilgamesh that there isn't a kind of Jewish Al-Quaida...
but of course he can always join the IDF if he likes killing Arabs.

But for achieving his European dreams he can always join forces with the real al-quaida and affiliated organisations, they have the ressources, experience and technology to kill "rolling in their own vomit" European civilians...

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
No, you don't understand him.
He is on a God-given mission.

And when he finally comes at night to slit the throats of all those missguided creatures, he shall praise the name of his God and thank him for the strengh he was given to fullfill his orders.
One who is a Natzi or an anti Semite, is not not "missguided". he is evil. he is a danger. he's existance is an insult. Your sympathy for anti semites and Natzis is yet another proof of your true attitude.

Had you REALLY been pro-Israeli, or philo-Semite, you would understand why Natzis must be "prevented".

When I think of Gilgamesh, I see somebody who is ambushing a Palestinian settlement for the cause of retal.... err prevention. Are you accusing the me to be a terrorist? Are you accusing the IDF of targeting civilians? Were there any terrorist attacks against Arabs by Jews? I consider your last remark as a slander, not Just against me, but against the IDF.
Your choice to deliberatly confuse retaliation with prevention proof you deny Israel right for self defence.

Maybe in ten years when he is Prime Minister of Israel, he shall use the God-given power of nuclear weapons to waste what there was once called Europe.
There are weapons far superior and far more powerful then couple of nukes.

People like Aba Kovner and the Nakam organizations are the heros I look at, when discussing these matters.

If you ever had such dreams Gilgamesh, think about your life and be ashamed. Why? Why does the one who wants justace and world peace should be ashamed?

I've proven you that Europe is an obstacle in any effort of reaching peace. Europe supports terrorism and my terror states like Iran and Syria. I believe the world will be far safer and far more just, if Germany is out of the picture.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
so sorry for Gilgamesh that there isn't a kind of Jewish Al-Quaida...
but of course he can always join the IDF if he likes killing Arabs. But I am in the IDF!!! Field-Intel: electronic observation. my rank is First-Sergent. I do reserve duty once a year for couple of weeks.


But for achieving his European dreams he can always join forces with the real al-quaida and affiliated organisations, they have the ressources, experience and technology to kill "rolling in their own vomit" European civilians... Why?
Al quaida is suppose to do the Job for me. Don't you know that a Tzdik has his job done by others?

But I don't think al quaida is not going to attak Europe. Europe is allied (unofficily) with this organization. Have you all forgotten the Muhamad Atta of the 9-11 massacre, was from Hamburg? It's just an example. Europe is a safe heaven for many terror organization. Europe, like Syria and Lebanon, is fighting Israel and the USA via proxies. Arab terror organizations.

Ofcourse they say other wise... and may even make few arrests... so does Arrafat. The Europeans may even condem some terror attacks... Arafat does so too. The fact on the grounds are that Europe provide safe heaven, allowes the collection of money, organization, and even pays by itself for terrorism as long as it directed against Jews and Americans. Prove me wrong, if you can.

[elke]

Comparing the IDF to Al Qaida is ludicrous! Actually, it is wishful thinking on everyone's part: for if Al Qaida had just 10% of the know-how of the IDF, they'd be really something major for us to fear. If they had just 10% of the moral values of the IDF - then we wouldn't have to fear them at all.

[Salim]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
I've proven you that Europe is an obstacle in any effort of reaching peace. Europe supports terrorism and my terror states like Iran and Syria. I believe the world will be far safer and far more just, if Germany is out of the picture.

The only thing you have proven is that people like you are the real enemies of peace.
You may be thinking that your views are morally justifiable, but they are not.
As long as there are too many people like you, there won't be peace.

[takeo]

But I am in the IDF!!! Field-Intel: electronic observation. my rank is First-Sergent. I do reserve duty once a year for couple of weeks.

I see, couldn't you ask transfer to the occupied territories? i see the IDF has an impressive psychologic screening of their personel...




Why?
Al quaida is suppose to do the Job for me. Don't you know that a Tzdik has his job done by others?

What do you mean? Are you serious???? :eek:

But I don't think al quaida is not going to attak Europe. Europe is allied (unofficily) with this organization. Have you all forgotten the Muhamad Atta of the 9-11 massacre, was from Hamburg? It's just an example. Europe is a safe heaven for many terror organization. Europe, like Syria and Lebanon, is fighting Israel and the USA via proxies. Arab terror organizations.


Come on, Atta learned how to fly in the US, while the FBI ignored some French reports about members of his group...
Europe isn't a safe haven for terrorists at all, because Europe is a target as well of those extremists (their ideas are very similar to yours, just another religion but the same fanatism). European secret services have ckracked down on terrorism, germany a bit later, but France already since the early 90's.




Ofcourse they say other wise... and may even make few arrests... so does Arrafat. The Europeans may even condem some terror attacks... Arafat does so too. The fact on the grounds are that Europe provide safe heaven, allowes the collection of money, organization, and even pays by itself for terrorism as long as it directed against Jews and Americans. Prove me wrong, if you can.

Europe isn't any more a safe haven for terrorists than the us. The US however is a safe haven for all kind of other terrorists, for example cuban ones.



Comparing the IDF to Al Qaida is ludicrous! Actually, it is wishful thinking on everyone's part: for if Al Qaida had just 10% of the know-how of the IDF, they'd be really something major for us to fear. If they had just 10% of the moral values of the IDF - then we wouldn't have to fear them at all.

I didn't really compare those two, i just proposed him to join the iDF to fullfill his deep wishes to kill arabs(doesn't really matter if they're innocent or not). Did you read all the posts of Gilgamesh, he is actually an occasional member of the IDF! Of course i don't mean that all soldiers are like him but still some are as extremist as Al-Quaida.

The IDF is an official army while Al-quaida is a terrorist group, the IDF has as duty to defend israel while al-quaida is an ideologically based organisation. But what they share is an inhuman image of their "ennemy", a lack of empathy and their willingness to spoil a lot of blood in order to reach their goals.

[Mediocrates]

You're probably right France is no safer for terrorists. Problem is you don't consider anyone a terrorist. Where are the Church of the Nativity murderers you helped get a free vacation?

I'm sure that one day you'll see a terrorist and decide to do something about it but until then there are only militants, activists, freedom fighters and whatnot.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Salim
The only thing you have proven is that people like you are the real enemies of peace.
You may be thinking that your views are morally justifiable, but they are not.
As long as there are too many people like you, there won't be peace.

There is nothing out of the ordinary about my opinions. But only few dare to voice them, like I do.

I am a Zionist, and so are the majority of Israeli Jews. I am the kind of people the Arabs must have peace with. Not with ultra-leftic- extremist-self-hating-auto-surrender-collaboratives. We are not that kind of people you seem to like so much. Peace by surrender. We fight for what we believe in, we die for our rights and liberties. I don't expect you to understand, but accept it as a fact. People like me make up the majority. Uri Avineri, the star of German political talk shows, is a fringe and a wirdow. a joke. No one take Avineri seriously over here. In Israel he appears only in political freak shows.

I represent much better the views of many Israelis, who shy to express their true views. I know these are the kind of Jews you dislike the most, as you seem to prefer only the anti zionist self hating kind, the kind of people that for money will approve what ever streotype and any perverted opinon the European may have.
European pay for an illusion about the ways they are seen by Jews. You convince your self, using hired intelectuals and actors that Zionism is bad, dangerous or wrong, and only few Jews share it. It's a dream.

I am your wake up call. Please German, tell about me to your friends. Your pro Arab and pro Terror stance, both in this forum and through your national and international politics, prove you all to be quite Anti Israeli, anti Zionist or, in other words: Anti semtic.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
I see, couldn't you ask transfer to the occupied territories? i see the IDF has an impressive psychologic screening of their personel... I'm usually Gaza.

Come on, Atta learned how to fly in the US, while the FBI ignored some French reports about members of his group...
Europe isn't a safe haven for terrorists at all, because Europe is a target as well of those extremists (their ideas are very similar to yours, just another religion but the same fanatism). European secret services have ckracked down on terrorism, germany a bit later, but France already since the early 90's. US undoings and mistakes, are US's mistakes. The European should've arrested Atta and his colaborators, long ago. The fact they didn't prove somthing, is it not?

Europe can't say it has "cracked down" of terrorist, cause many many of them still there, active. Latly, two paki terrorists, britons, murdered 3 civilians in Tel Aviv.

BTW, I've never seen you explaination of that phenomena... that Pakis have committed suicide mass mureder.

Europe isn't any more a safe haven for terrorists than the us. The US however is a safe haven for all kind of other terrorists, for example cuban ones. When was the last Arab terror attack in Europe?

I didn't really compare those two, i just proposed him to join the iDF to fullfill his deep wishes to kill arabs(doesn't really matter if they're innocent or not). re-read my post. Where do I say I want to kill all Arabs? I said I want anti semite dead. Do you honestly believe all Arabs are anti semites?
If so, you are a racist against Arabs!

Did you read all the posts of Gilgamesh, he is actually an occasional member of the IDF! Of course i don't mean that all soldiers are like him but still some are as extremist as Al-Quaida. Yes!!! I am extremly motivated to defend Jews in the land of Israel and abord. I admit to be a zelot, fantical and extremist about that. To the last drop of blood, if I have too.

So are the majority of IDF soldiers. Some have already proven my last statement. :( G-d bless their souls.

The IDF is an official army while Al-quaida is a terrorist group, the IDF has as duty to defend israel while al-quaida is an ideologically based organisation. But what they share is an inhuman image of their "ennemy", a lack of empathy and their willingness to spoil a lot of blood in order to reach their goals. I don't know a "human" way of suicide mass murderers or of those who support them.

IDF war is not with the Arabs, but with Arab terrorists, and Arab terrorist ideology.

[takeo]

There is nothing out of the ordinary about my opinions. But only few dare to voice them, like I do.

I am a Zionist, and so are the majority of Israeli Jews. I am the kind of people the Arabs must have peace with. Not with ultra-leftic- extremist-self-hating-auto-surrender-collaboratives. We are not that kind of people you seem to like so much. Peace by surrender. We fight for what we believe in, we die for our rights and liberties. I don't expect you to understand, but accept it as a fact. People like me make up the majority. Uri Avineri, the star of German political talk shows, is a fringe and a wirdow. a joke. No one take Avineri seriously over here. In Israel he appears only in political freak shows.

I represent much better the views of many Israelis, who shy to express their true views. I know these are the kind of Jews you dislike the most, as you seem to prefer only the anti zionist self hating kind, the kind of people that for money will approve what ever streotype and any perverted opinon the European may have.
European pay for an illusion about the ways they are seen by Jews. You convince your self, using hired intelectuals and actors that Zionism is bad, dangerous or wrong, and only few Jews share it. It's a dream.

You are forgetting a very large share of the Israeli public opinion who wants to get rid of the occupied territories and the illegal settlements, and see those as compromising the israeli opportunities to reach peace. those aren't a marginal minority in Israel, on the contrary. If all israeli were like you we could pretty much forget about peace and reaching a settlement that would give both peoples the rights they deserve and a human and acceptable solution for both. If all israeli were like you war would have to continue for decades to come. i sincerely hope you're wrong.


I am your wake up call. Please German, tell about me to your friends. Your pro Arab and pro Terror stance, both in this forum and through your national and international politics, prove you all to be quite Anti Israeli, anti Zionist or, in other words: Anti semtic.

people who oppose the oppression and nazist treatment of the palestinians aren't necessarily anti-semitics, on the contrary, many are Jewish themselves. many israeli also oppose the fundamentalism you present here.

I'm usually Gaza.

I understand why there are proportionally more civilian death in Gaza than in the westbank...

US undoings and mistakes, are US's mistakes. The European should've arrested Atta and his colaborators, long ago. The fact they didn't prove somthing, is it not?

this only prooves european secret services need to improve, as well as the American ones.

When was the last Arab terror attack in Europe?


last year french targets have been attacked in the middle east and Pakistan by al-quaida or sympathisers

re-read my post. Where do I say I want to kill all Arabs? I said I want anti semite dead. Do you honestly believe all Arabs are anti semites?
If so, you are a racist against Arabs!

you didn't specify terrorists, you said Muslims and Arabs, and Europeans, without distinction.

Yes!!! I am extremly motivated to defend Jews in the land of Israel and abord. I admit to be a zelot, fantical and extremist about that. To the last drop of blood, if I have too.

you are motivated to defend your insane dream of Eretz israel whatever the cost in human lifes, and you are driven by hate for the other side and religious believe, exactly as osama Bin laden as well.

So are the majority of IDF soldiers. Some have already proven my last statement. G-d bless their souls.

yeah they did by targetting innocent palestinians and reporters.

I don't know a "human" way of suicide mass murderers or of those who support them.

according to you all palestinians support them and they don't have a place in their own land according to you, so you don't threat them like humans but animals, exactly as hitler did with his victims as well.

[Mediocrates]

If there was a 'very large' proportion of Israelis who wanted to 'get rid of' the territories then theire electoral results would have been somewhat different.

[takeo]

but according to electoral analysis people voted for likud because they want the transition to happen in the best possible circumstances for Israel.

[Mediocrates]

like I said - - -

[Canajew]

Originally posted by takeo
perhaps the terrorists themselves won't cange their behavior if they become wealthy, but surely terrorism will have much less popular support. And as became clear everywhere in the world, terrorism without popular support is doomed to fail.
what are the most "succesfull" terrorist groups? Right... Al Quaida, Hamas, etc.


Perhaps, but perhaps not. What could also potentially happen is that as the population becomes more affluent, those in the middle and upper classes would have more resources to fund militant or terrorist activites, while the lower and under-classes, which will not only be ever present but would likely be quite large among the Palestinian and larger Arab populations would remain succeptable to being recruited into these activities.

Now while you might argue that when the middle classes become so powerful that they could effectively prevent terrorist activity when it operated counter to the economic best interest of the middle classes, I would not envision a middle east in general and a Palestine in particular with anything approaching this sort of balance.

Rather, those in power will use the vast lower classes as a base of loyal supporters, blaming all the nation's ills on external factors (i.e. Israel and the United States) while at the same time channeling the contived anger of the lower classes to create an effective wedge and remain in power. Observing the use of anti-Israel propaganda in the Arab world since the 1940s, one can see this is exactly what happened. And it has continued unabated among the APlestinian population, even while Oslo was in its hayday.

And popular support for al-quada seems to be strongest (if support is roughly correlated to monetary contributions) in Saudi Arabi and among Arab populations in the US and Europe. Islamists in these countries are, in general, the most affluent Islamists. And while almost all of them may be unlikely to engage in terrorist activites in the first place, their affluence comparts on them an ability to dedicate far more resources to the terrorist infrastructure, and the disillusioned among Arab populations will provide as many potential terrorists as funding can cope with.

And with respect to popular support, to resolve the problems in the middle east, shifting popular support is insufficient. If the Palestinians get to believe that violence is not in their best interests at this time (which is a position they may be moving to), peace will still not be forthcomming. This view is shaped by tactical interests. What is needed is a sea-change in public opinion to hold that violence is unacceptable in and of itself, regardless of the effectiveness of it in achieving aims.

For peace, and for terrorism to truly be addressed, what is needed is for the Palestinian people to discover what it means to have a civil society. And some would also say that having a civil society is a key precept for investment, economic growth and development. And without these, the population will never become affluent and your point becomes moot. For maybe affluence will reduce terrorism. But if terrorism remains as contral to the Palestinians collective identity (streets named after suicide bombers, children playing with suicide bomber trading cards and the like) it will be more or less impossible to increase economic well being within the Palestinian population.

What the Palestinians need more than anything is a Ghandi. Someone to ween violence from their culture and instill the mores and values which are necessary for a civil society. Pity I do not see any prospect of this happening any time soon. And the road-map, Europe's hostility to Israel, and appeasment of terrorism and the like, will only make the chances of this sort of person emerging and the prospects for real and genuine peace more elusive.

[Communication]

The 9-11 terrorists drove nice cars, had good jobs, plenty of resources. The British suicide bombers were neither poor nor subject to Israeli "oppression." There are many examples that refute the liberal canard that it's poverty that's motivating people to become suicide bombers. There are poor people all over the world, in much worse shape than the Palestinians who do not blow themselves up in resturants. It's the ideology that's the problem.

[richcrassus]

Gilgamesh, if you want to fight anti-semitism, cant u join like the Simon Weisenthal centre, and go around europe and sth america busting up neo nazi hideouts and stuff like that, or maybe u should do that masssacre like that goldstein did in the mosque a few years ago, that might also be to your liking. But before u do that, u have to think of an escape plan, u know before the arab mob rips you to pieces, like they did to that goldstein bloke.

[takeo]

maybe u should do that masssacre like that goldstein did in the mosque a few years ago

no comment... :eek:

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by richcrassus
Gilgamesh, if you want to fight anti-semitism, cant u join like the Simon Weisenthal centre, and go around europe and sth america busting up neo nazi hideouts and stuff like that, or maybe u should do that masssacre like that goldstein did in the mosque a few years ago, that might also be to your liking. But before u do that, u have to think of an escape plan, u know before the arab mob rips you to pieces, like they did to that goldstein bloke.


Maybe we can just play the PA card, shrug, look pained and simply say "Well you know how they are. Nothing to do about it except surrender...."


I'll give you Baruch Goldstein. The score is now 14,689 to 7.

[danholo]

Israel releases busload of Palestinian prisoners (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/292108.html)

Something positive, eh?

I really have my doubts about this "roadmap". Both sides don't seem to be really enthusiastic about this whole deal, but something positive might happen.

One thing missing here is Pres. Bush. He, himself, should go to the region and start driving according to this map. This is if he really wants something to happen. There is a lot of problems here on the "homefront" but I don't think a short trip would be that costly...

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=43176


National Union Objections.

Letter to Kurtzer Sums Up Road Map Flaws
MK Aryeh Eldad (National Union) has written a letter to US Ambassador Daniel Kurtzer, outlining in brief some fundamental flaws with the Road Map. The full letter can be seen below. Excerpts follow:








"...The preamble mentions occupation that began in 1967. The term 'occupation' cannot apply to territory that was itself under Jordanian occupation and whose status was legally disputed and undetermined. In itself, this mistaken definition of the territories in question undermines the legal validity of much of the legal basis of the proposals contained in the Road Map.

"...I find it most disturbing that after the Sept. 11 terror attack, and after the war in Iraq, your government has proceeded on a course [of collaborating with Russia and European governments] that seems totally oblivious to the lessons of those two events. It is entirely self-evident that had your government followed the course proposed by Russia and the Europeans, both Israel and the U.S. would have been exposed today to a severe escalation of terror and violence.

"...I am sure you are aware that all initiatives and plans put forward over the years by the US and the UN have failed, and have contributed to more tension and violence. Only when our neighbors will conclude that a) violence will get them nowhere, and b) that the international community will not rescue them from the consequences of their fanatic hatred of Israel, will there be a chance of progress towards stability.

"...I am sure you realize that the political party to which I belong, together with other members in the government coalition, will do everything possible to prevent any implementation of the proposals contained in the Road Map... This is not just for our sake... but no less for the security and well-being of this part of the world, which we believe to be an American interest as much as our own."

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=43176
National Union Objections.
Letter to Kurtzer Sums Up Road Map Flaws
MK Aryeh Eldad (National Union) has written a letter to US Ambassador Daniel Kurtzer, ..."
I would love to see what rpm the State Department spins at for this one.

[takeo]

so if i'm right what the national union proposes is a continuation of the current slaughter and violence???

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by takeo
so if i'm right what the national union proposes is a continuation of the current slaughter and violence???

Sigh....

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
"...I am sure you are aware that all initiatives and plans put forward over the years by the US and the UN have failed, and have contributed to more tension and violence. Only when our neighbors will conclude that a) violence will get them nowhere, and b) that the international community will not rescue them from the consequences of their fanatic hatred of Israel, will there be a chance of progress towards stability.

Yes, this really sums it up. Not only has the world tolerated Palestinian terrorism that includes the slaughter of thousands of Americans and Israelis, but the mass-murderers have actually been rewarded. Arafat is regarded as an revered statesman by many world leaders, who continue to shower endless financial and political rewards on the Palestinian terrorist Authority.

So why should the other Arab terrorists change their ways? They're just lining up for their own rewards from the international community.

[Canajew]

Originally posted by takeo
so if i'm right what the national union proposes is a continuation of the current slaughter and violence???

and if you are wrong and we are right, OSLO 2 will only result in this conflict being protracted even further. How can there be peace when one side is not ready for it?

[yehudi]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
since we have a moderator around, a remark. The roadmap debate should be in the "Peace Think Tank" forum don't you think?

[Canajew]

Originally posted by yehudi
since we have a moderator around, a remark. The roadmap debate should be in the "Peace Think Tank" forum don't you think?

But what are the chances that the road map can lead to any sort of real peace? From what I can see, slim to none. Therefore "In the News" seems a more appropriate category, as at some point the road map will be forgotten like all the other "peace" plans.

And if it is, in fact, fully implemented, it will only be a precursor to a bigger war than the middle east has seen in a long time.