Who we're really dealing with

[NewsGuy]

This is a perfect example of the Arab and Islamic culture that Israel and the Western world is facing. How can one reason with these people in Western terms? And, would you want to give these people their own country neighboring yours?

In the photo (taken April 22, 2003):

Two groups of 100 Shiite men in white robes slashed their heads with long, sharp swords, spraying blood on those near them, to symbolize their anguish over the slaying of Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
This is a perfect example of the Arab and Islamic culture that Israel and the Western world is facing. How can one reason with these people in Western terms?

In the photo (taken April 22, 2003):

Two groups of 100 men in white robes slashed their heads with long, sharp swords, spraying blood on those near them, to symbolize their anguish over the slaying of Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.
Well, the photo hasn't shown up as of this posting, so I'll have to wait til later to check it out. Do you, by chance, have any 8X10 glossies of those other mental cases whipping themselves with chains? I noticed on the newcasts that they all wear white, presumably to show off their loss of blood more graphically.

How do you have meaningful dialogue with insane fanatics?

[richcrassus]

The media here in australia was disgraceful, they did show this march and blood and stuff, but they made it sound like the blood was from an animal or whatever and it just went on them, they didnt say they slashed themselves, oh no, if they did say that, people might start thinking differently about muslims like the people that they are, instead, lets portray them as victims and heroic people battleing the evil american invasion.
Just makes me sick why the media lie, i mean its not about selling more newspapers cos this was on TV news, why cant they just say the truth that they cut themselves, and that they are all crazy and violent?????????

[andak01]

How do you have meaningful dialogue with insane fanatics?

http://warrations.com/_tDeadIraqis104.jpg

Not like this.

http://images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-03/7127951.jpg

Or like this.

http://warrations.com/_tDeadIraqis100.jpg

Or like this.

[andak01]

That tradition goes against my own beliefs. Sunnis do not believe in harming themselves. But self mutilations are practiced the world over. When the men in the Phillipines allow themselves to be crucified, we put it on television and think it's quaint. When Indian fakirs pierce their faces, we think it is exotic. But when Shiites draw blood, we use it to stereotype. THIS is a demonstration of democracy that they were not allowed under Saddam. Democracy means that some people you don't like have the right to practice their beliefs.

[NewsGuy]

andak01,

You're an example of a devout Muslim who is perfectly reasonable and peaceful. I would have thought that you would just say that the ones pictured are a small exception and do not represent the majority.

What are these pictures you're linking to?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by andak01
When the men in the Phillipines allow themselves to be crucified, we put it on television and think it's quaint.

I think they're nuts, but luckily they don't proclaim themselves to hate me and my kind, unlike the Shiites.


THIS is a demonstration of democracy that they were not allowed under Saddam. Democracy means that some people you don't like have the right to practice their beliefs.

Good point.

[minusthejihad]

There are some things I question too, such as circumcision for example which doesn't make sense from a very objective viewpoint with no schema or scientific forsight. In the end, I'll probably circumcise my child.

But can't some things just be wrong? Why is it not OK to say some people or groups of people are plain F'ed up? I can come up with a thousand excuses for some of our traditions, but people playing with deadly snakes, starving themselves, slashing themselves or battling bulldozers have some serious issues to resolve.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Shiite men in white robes slashed their heads with long, sharp swords, spraying blood on those near them, to symbolize their anguish over the slaying of Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.

If they were as harmless as fakirs, I wouldn't care much. But since these Neanderthals crave for the blood of my family, I wish their swords today were sharp and long enough to spare them of further anguish.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
That tradition goes against my own beliefs. Sunnis do not believe in harming themselves. But self mutilations are practiced the world over. When the men in the Phillipines allow themselves to be crucified, we put it on television and think it's quaint. When Indian fakirs pierce their faces, we think it is exotic. But when Shiites draw blood, we use it to stereotype. THIS is a demonstration of democracy that they were not allowed under Saddam. Democracy means that some people you don't like have the right to practice their beliefs.
I just KNEW you'd find some example to mitigate this scene. I even KNEW you'd bring up those nutty fanatics in the Phillipines as one of those examples, being as it's Easter season and all.

I think it all craziness, but there is an obvious difference between the thousands of maniacal shiites almost literally foaming at the mouth in the streets of Karbala and the few individual incidents you make reference to.

C'mon Andak, don't you think that those people are displaying a dangerous obsession, as democratic as it was of the Americans to allow it to take place for the first time in over 25 years. A disgusting ritual which would be outlawed in any civilized country, but we are dealing with barbaric minds here.

[andak01]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
andak01,

You're an example of a devout Muslim who is perfectly reasonable and peaceful. I would have thought that you would just say that the ones pictured are a small exception and do not represent the majority.

What are these pictures you're linking to?

These pictures are the result of our own wierd practices. While we look upon people who beat themselves as fanatics, we condone the type of violence pictured as 'colateral damage'. I imagine that those looking up at a sky full of bombs may perceive us as extremists and fanatics. Those who lose children to colateral damage may not perceive us as humanitarian. Those Shiites are practicing their democratic right to freedom of religion. If we truely believe in the causes that we claim to, we must defend their rights to those freedoms so long as they don't endanger our own.

[Donna]

As far as I’m concerned, anyone who slashes, beats, pierces, crucifies them self, drinks poison, caresses a cottonmouth, or in any way mutilates their body to show religious devotion or fervor is just F U B A R. But, as long as they don’t force anyone else to participate, including their own children, and their blood isn’t getting on me, they may as well flail away.

Again...blech.

[cerulean]

Elsewhere (I think on this forum also) there are pictures of Shi'ite parents slashing their own small children, following the same religious practice shown here.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by andak01
Those Shiites are practicing their democratic right to freedom of religion. If we truely believe in the causes that we claim to, we must defend their rights to those freedoms so long as they don't endanger our own.

I think that key is the last part, because fanatic Muslims like those in the pictures are, indeed, endangering all of us.

As for freedom of religion, I am not opposed to Muslims slashing their heads and soaking in their blood while chanting and waving swords over their heads, like in the photo.

But this custom is an indication that they live in a completely different world and do not relate to Western norms, which makes it practically impossible to for them to reach a peaceful status quo with Westerners. The cultural gaps are so great that I doubt that they can be bridged.

[Donna]

Originally posted by cerulean
Elsewhere (I think on this forum also) there are pictures of Shi'ite parents slashing their own small children, following the same religious practice shown here.

Yep, a clear sign of being F U B A R. I feel the same way about parents who raise their children to become murdering suicide-bombers. What kind of twisted, barbaric mind desires such a thing for their children, or for anyone for that matter?

[Donna]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
I think that key is the last part, because fanatic Muslims like those in the pictures are, indeed, endangering all of us.

As for freedom of religion, I am not opposed to Muslims slashing their heads and soaking in their blood while chanting and waving swords over their heads, like in the photo.

But this custom is an indication that they live in a completely different world and do not relate to Western norms, which makes it practically impossible to for them to reach a peaceful status quo with Westerners. The cultural gaps are so great that I doubt that they can be bridged.

I agree: when someone exercising their "rights" endangers others -- the tolerance factor diminishes.

[minusthejihad]

I just don't get it Andak. Why not Buddhism? It's so much cleaner. Don't know, if I saw Jews doing that, I'd be very ashamed and would probably denounce my religion.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
This is a perfect example of the Arab and Islamic culture that Israel and the Western world is facing. How can one reason with these people in Western terms? And, would you want to give these people their own country neighboring yours?



NewsGuy

It seems to me that your (earlier posts) fears re the Shiites in Iraq are beginning to materialize. The trouble is that elements within all Muslim are capable of displaying the same insanity (by western standards).

The only place that I would want to see them get their own country is in hell.
I believe that the only way to make individuals like that behave like civilized human beings is to hold a sword over their heads and be prepared to use it.

It’s going to be a scary future!

I was never in favor of liberating one single Iraqi although I admittedly supported ridding Iraq of the Baath party and I would still do so. If the allies aren’t willing to outlaw demonstrations like this immediately on punishment of death I’m afraid that things will go from bad to worse.

It’s fine and dandy for Rumsfeld to say that they can express themselves now that Saddam is gone but behavior like this can get out of hand.

[andak01]

Lamplighter,

Penalty of death, for spilling ones own blood? How about penalty of death for tatooing? These people are displaying their empathy for the martyrdom of Hussein by taking some of his pain themselves. When I was a Christian, I wasn't about to denounce my religion because some people handle snakes. Probably as many snake handlers die of bites as die of these blood letting ceremonies. I'm not about to denounce my religion now because some Muslims cut themselves or some Muslims are whirling dirvishes. When I was in Morocco, I saw people pounding nails into a tree to increase fertility. This comes straight out of animist religions practiced farther South. Christian penitants still practice flagellation in some parts of the world.

http://wais.stanford.edu/phillipines_christiancult41302.html
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/shiites/similarity_between_shia_rituals_.htm

I don't believe in the practice. I also don't believe in the practice of wearing a philactary. But I would defend someone else's right to do so, provided it doesn't interfere with my own security and well being. They don't slash themselves because they hate us and they don't hate us because they slash themselves. It's a separate issue.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
These people are displaying their empathy for the martyrdom of Hussein by taking some of his pain themselves.
In one of your previous posts in this thread, you did put some distance between yourself and the shiites, so your statement remains a bit enigmatic. Are you "explaining" what they "believe" they are doing, or are you suggesting there is some merit in "taking on" the pain of another individual, let alone someone who hasn't had a body for well over a thousand years?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by andak01
Lamplighter,

Penalty of death, for spilling ones own blood?


As far as I’m concerned its incitement and it should carry the death penalty. Now if they just happened to mutilate their testicles rendering them selves infertile I would supply the swords.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
Probably as many snake handlers die of bites as die of these blood letting ceremonies.
Are you being honest when you bring this up? Do you truly not see the difference between an extremely limited number of nutcases in the privacy of their rare and isolated churches doing wierd stuff with snakes, and thousands of maniacs in public participating in barbaric behavior while denouncing the U.S.? Can your intellect not grasp the connection between rabble rousing and the possibility of subsequent incitements to more bad behavior?
I saw people pounding nails into a tree to increase fertility.
What in the world does this have to do with a multitude of maniacs inciting their fellows with barbaric behavior?
Christian penitants still practice flagellation in some parts of the world.
I am sure that you will cast far and wide through the internet to find examples, but I challenge you to find a sizable group of Christians anywhere on earth doing that. Even the wacko crucifixionists in the Phillipines and Mexico are a rarity and any crowd on hand is witnessing these few aberrants, not participating in the behavior itself.
I also don't believe in the practice of wearing a philactary
This is such a disengenous inclusion in your examples of "unusual" behavior, that I am amazed that you had the balls to even mention it. You are comparing the wearing of religious garb to a very public display of a large number of people involved in self mutilation that incites mobs of onlookers to fanaticism? You should be ashamed of even attempting such a worthless comparison.
They don't slash themselves because they hate us and they don't hate us because they slash themselves.
These people have chosen to mix politics with their religious excess, which most definitely conveys the message that people who behave in such a manner are capable of anything.

[cerulean]

I don't believe in the practice. I also don't believe in the practice of wearing a philactary.

There's no reasonable comparison to be made between these two practices, except to contrast a physically dangerous practice with a peaceful practice during prayer.

I think what is bizarre to Westerners about these particular performances is how they are played out in public and widely accepted by the general public as normal behavior. There are a few people into this sort of thing in the West, but they're usually to be found in fetish personal ads and private dungeons.

If people in the West involve children in this slashing practice and are discovered, they will be prosecuted and punished with taking their children away (most of the time, unless they get a judge into cultural relativity).

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by cerulean
I think what is bizarre to Westerners about these particular performances is how they are played out in public and widely accepted by the general public as normal behavior.
I am glad you pointed out this "acceptance by the general public as normal behaviour" issue. It illustrates the great danger involved in such behavior in that so many of the observors themselves are thus capable of aberrant activity.

[minusthejihad]

Couldn't find the link, but I read just yesterday that a high court banned the use of Peyote by a child during American Indian rituals because of the dangers to the child. No one would win a case in which they think because of traditions, they could slash their kids heads with a knife. Even eith Johny Cochrain as their lawyer! Some things are just wrong.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by andak01
That tradition goes against my own beliefs. Sunnis do not believe in harming themselves. But self mutilations are practiced the world over. When the men in the Phillipines allow themselves to be crucified, we put it on television and think it's quaint. When Indian fakirs pierce their faces, we think it is exotic. But when Shiites draw blood, we use it to stereotype. THIS is a demonstration of democracy that they were not allowed under Saddam. Democracy means that some people you don't like have the right to practice their beliefs.

Are you trying to tell me that some of the suicide bombers (if not all) haven’t been Sunni? Blowing your self up and killing Jews in the process is harming yourself in most people’s opinion unless I’ve lost touch with reality.

Democracy? If it wasn’t for the fact that Hussein supported terrorism against Israel and/or the west and was a threat to the stability in the region I would say that people like this deserved a leader like him. It seems to me that individuals like that should be kept at bay either in a mental institution or a jail cell.

Quite frankly I’ve never cared one way or another how the Baath party ruled Iraq until they made an incursion into Kuwait and refused to honor the terms of surrender and/or UN resolution 682/1441

In other words if each and every Muslim in the world magically found them selves on another planet they could kill each other until the cows come home as far as I’m concerned. Kill, mutilate, rape and pillage all you want just do it in your own backyard.

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
In one of your previous posts in this thread, you did put some distance between yourself and the shiites, so your statement remains a bit enigmatic. Are you "explaining" what they "believe" they are doing, or are you suggesting there is some merit in "taking on" the pain of another individual, let alone someone who hasn't had a body for well over a thousand years?

I am suggesting that empathy is something we in the west seem to have lost for all societies we find inferior. This is simply arrogance. We have University hazing rituals that are more self destructive than what the Shiites do. We get tatoos and pierce our bodies. But when someone we don't understand and don't like performs their own custom, they are fanatics and barbarians. Once we have thus reduced them in our eyes, any form of oppression can be visited upon them. So we sell weapons to Saddam to stop those fanatics. We calmly witness Saddam's genocide against those fanatics.

The reason we have had so much trouble predicting their actions is because we have zero understanding of them. We assume that they are driven by our own motivations.

[andak01]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Are you trying to tell me that some of the suicide bombers (if not all) haven’t been Sunni? Blowing your self up and killing Jews in the process is harming yourself in most people’s opinion unless I’ve lost touch with reality.

No. You have extended the actions of two or three hundred people to cover the beliefs of over one billion. But let me say that, unlike myself, those bombers wrongly perceive all Israelis as combatants. They do see themselves as fighting an army. They are brainwashed to see all Israelis as the enemy. This brainwashing is assisted by occasional bulldozings, assassinations and colateral damage. You, who are not brainwashed see all Palestinians as the enemy. Your point of view is assisted by occasional bus bombings.

In other words if each and every Muslim in the world magically found them selves on another planet they could kill each other until the cows come home as far as I’m concerned. Kill, mutilate, rape and pillage all you want just do it in your own backyard.

Well, if you consider America another planet from Palestine, your theory is proven wrong. The seven million odd Muslim-Americans tend to live a fairly high standard of living without great conflict. We don't kill, mutilate, rape pillage now, and we didn't prior to 9/11.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by andak01
I am suggesting that empathy is something we in the west seem to have lost for all societies we find inferior. This is simply arrogance. We have University hazing rituals that are more self destructive than what the Shiites do. We get tatoos and pierce our bodies. But when someone we don't understand and don't like performs their own custom, they are fanatics and barbarians. Once we have thus reduced them in our eyes, any form of oppression can be visited upon them. So we sell weapons to Saddam to stop those fanatics. We calmly witness Saddam's genocide against those fanatics.

The reason we have had so much trouble predicting their actions is because we have zero understanding of them. We assume that they are driven by our own motivations.

This is complete utter liberal BS. Plain and simple.

There is not a society in the world, who understands and feels empathetic to the "others" than the US. Please name one.

The fact that we try to understand everyone and honor everyone's beliefs is our Achille's Heal. We also happen to have one of the most diverse populations in terms of culture than anywhere else in the world. Because of this and our empathetic media and government, we do understand and feel for the various nutcases in the world.

Why do you think the US is pushing for the Roadmap? What economic interests does the US have by setting up yet another anti-American Jihadafadastan in the middle of a Hornet's nest?

What is arrogant, is the fact that we bend over backwards to make people happier and healthier across the world, and we try to understand them, and what do we get back in return from the misunderstood? SPIT

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by andak01
The seven million odd Muslim-Americans tend to live a fairly high standard of living without great conflict. We don't kill, mutilate, rape pillage now, and we didn't prior to 9/11.

But in all fairness, most American Arabs do support Palestinian terrorism against Israelis and Americans, and have also sent millions of dollars to fund terrorist organizations like Hamas.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by andak01


Well, if you consider America another planet from Palestine, your theory is proven wrong. The seven million odd Muslim-Americans tend to live a fairly high standard of living without great conflict. We don't kill, mutilate, rape pillage now, and we didn't prior to 9/11.

I’ve posted statistics in this forum in the past that indicate quite clearly that we’re not dealing with only 200-300 individuals when it comes to supporting terrorism.

If I recall correctly somewhere around 80% of Muslims support terrorism against Jews and that includes killing children.

Muslims generally behave rather well until they become a majority and at that point things start getting out of hand.

When I weed my garden I don’t selectively weed out only the odd dandelion, they all get yanked. Elements of Islam have launched attacks against America and/or have plotted to kill the US from within its continental borders. That much we know! If you’re asking me if think that each and every Muslim in the US are planning the early demise of the US my answer would be no. Further, at this point in time I do not think that the majority of Muslims in the US support terrorism.

It appears to this writer that at some point issues within the Muslim communities throughout the west will have to be dealt with. Throughout the west there have been imams that have advocated unlawful activities and this must stop immediately.

[andak01]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
If I recall correctly somewhere around 80% of Muslims support terrorism against Jews and that includes killing children.


If you are going to exaggerate that much, why not 120% or 1000%. 80% doesn't nearly insult the reader's intellegence enough. And you forgot cannibalism and drinking blood of Jewish children during Ramadan. Have you discovered the Protocol of the Elders of Islam as well?

[andak01]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
But in all fairness, most American Arabs do support Palestinian terrorism against Israelis and Americans, and have also sent millions of dollars to fund terrorist organizations like Hamas.

Do you have anything to back up that statement? What American poll are you referring to that tackles this subject?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
I am suggesting that empathy is something we in the west seem to have lost for all societies we find inferior. This is simply arrogance. We have University hazing rituals that are more self destructive than what the Shiites do. We get tatoos and pierce our bodies. But when someone we don't understand and don't like performs their own custom, they are fanatics and barbarians. Once we have thus reduced them in our eyes, any form of oppression can be visited upon them. So we sell weapons to Saddam to stop those fanatics. We calmly witness Saddam's genocide against those fanatics.

The reason we have had so much trouble predicting their actions is because we have zero understanding of them. We assume that they are driven by our own motivations.
These comments merely underline your willfull choice to "not get it". You are a "mitigator par excellent. No matter what terrible behavior is engaged in by muslims, you always show up with bizarre comparisons to show how (A) it's really not that bad, (B) we're all bigots to judge the behavior, (3) Christians do wierd things too, (4) etc, etc, etc.

Most sensible people will NEVER have, and will never want to have, any empathy whatsoever with the nauseating behavior which we are discussing in this thread.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by andak01
If you are going to exaggerate that much, why not 120% or 1000%. 80% doesn't nearly insult the reader's intellegence enough. And you forgot cannibalism and drinking blood of Jewish children during Ramadan. Have you discovered the Protocol of the Elders of Islam as well?

Admittedly I wasn’t the one that conducted the polls although I recall that it was a reputable company. Some Islamic countries (Egypt) being one forbade polls being taken and it doesn’t take much information to figure out why.
I don’t know what mathematical system Muslims use but mine stops at 100%.

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
These comments merely underline your willfull choice to "not get it". You are a "mitigator par excellent. No matter what terrible behavior is engaged in by muslims, you always show up with bizarre comparisons to show how (A) it's really not that bad, (B) we're all bigots to judge the behavior, (3) Christians do wierd things too, (4) etc, etc, etc.

Most sensible people will NEVER have, and will never want to have, any empathy whatsoever with the nauseating behavior which we are discussing in this thread.

Over one hundred Americans died so that they could engage in that behavior. Everyone is complaining about the lack of freedom of religion in the Middle East. These very people were persecuted and killed by Saddam because of their religion. That brutal persecution was austensibly one of the reasons we invaded. The famous meat grinder story was related by a Shia. Now, tell me honestly, freedom of religion only applies to the religions we want to be free. Isn't that right?

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
Over one hundred Americans died so that they could engage in that behavior. Everyone is complaining about the lack of freedom of religion in the Middle East. These very people were persecuted and killed by Saddam because of their religion. That brutal persecution was austensibly one of the reasons we invaded. The famous meat grinder story was related by a Shia. Now, tell me honestly, freedom of religion only applies to the religions we want to be free. Isn't that right?
Nobody died so that those idiots could engage in that specific behavior. If this is the most "noble" behavior that a democratic muslim can dream up, then Islam is in worse trouble than any of us infidels have imagined.

I don't think we'll interfere with the muslim right to show the world what a bunch of fanatic wackos they are, but you should understand why we tend to disrespect their choices when they lead to this kind of activity. Allowing them the freedom to do such despicable things is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than approving of it.

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
Allowing them the freedom to do such despicable things is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different than approving of it.

I'm sorry. I see you have a better grasp of democratic principles than I had imagined. My sincere apologies.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
I'm sorry. I see you have a better grasp of democratic principles than I had imagined. My sincere apologies.
Your mind is so steeped in your sarcasm that your point was buried.

[Isiah 2:4]

First of all, i hope everyone had a peaceful and Happy Passover.

It seems to me that the problem here is that we, in the West, have simply left behind the concept of Martyrdom. It is now seen as a strange and alien way of celebrating those who live their life with the complete dedication to one faith.

Remember that the Christian Saints were named as Martyrs, because of their dedication to the faith or as a result of their virtuous actions somehow being in favour of the Lord.

I do not think that al-Hussein was anyway virtuous, nor do i see the suicide bombers as just or dignified, their martyrdom is a twisted abuse of a just religious concept.

The argument in this thread stems from the non-existent association that westerners, at present, have with the celebration of martyrs. We cannot relate to this act because it, the concept, has all but been wiped from our psyche. Monks fasted and performed flagellation up until the 1600's, maybe more. It just so happens that the devout and orthodox minority of Shias in Iraq have not detached themselves from this tradition.

Just like the Jews have never detached themselves from the Brit. It is a sacred act and a covenant with G-D, but is still a form of mutilation. For the parents and the congregation it is a powerful testament to the Lord Adonai, a commitment and symbolic representation of the Jewish faith.

Maybe, just maybe, the Iraqi Shias feel the same about their acts.

Personally, anything to do with al-Hussein disgusts me. I have no problem with these people, but al-Hussein has been a source of inspiration for bin-laden and he was a conspirator with Hitler. Todays fanaticists owe their miscontrued beliefs to his warped ideologies and his shameful and sacrilegeous interpretation of his faith. :mad:

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
First of all, i hope everyone had a peaceful and Happy Passover.

It seems to me that the problem here is that we, in the West, have simply left behind the concept of Martyrdom. It is now seen as a strange and alien way of celebrating those who live their life with the complete dedication to one faith.

Remember that the Christian Saints were named as Martyrs, because of their dedication to the faith or as a result of their virtuous actions somehow being in favour of the Lord.

I do not think that al-Hussein was anyway virtuous, nor do i see the suicide bombers as just or dignified, their martyrdom is a twisted abuse of a just religious concept.

The argument in this thread stems from the non-existent association that westerners, at present, have with the celebration of martyrs. We cannot relate to this act because it, the concept, has all but been wiped from our psyche. Monks fasted and performed flagellation up until the 1600's, maybe more. It just so happens that the devout and orthodox minority of Shias in Iraq have not detached themselves from this tradition.

Just like the Jews have never detached themselves from the Brit. It is a sacred act and a covenant with G-D, but is still a form of mutilation. For the parents and the congregation it is a powerful testament to the Lord Adonai, a commitment and symbolic representation of the Jewish faith.

Maybe, just maybe, the Iraqi Shias feel the same about their acts.

Personally, anything to do with al-Hussein disgusts me. I have no problem with these people, but al-Hussein has been a source of inspiration for bin-laden and he was a conspirator with Hitler. Todays fanaticists owe their miscontrued beliefs to his warped ideologies and his shameful and sacrilegeous interpretation of his faith. :mad:

It's really an issue of the importnace of self over a cause or over the collective and when that decision applies.

If I knew that my family was going to be killed and my sacrifice would save them, I would do it. However, if my cause was someone else's cause, and was independent of my or my family's connection to the cause, you can count me out.

Milan Kundero once said, "Causes are stupid" Basically, live your life to its fullest and let the bleeding hearts sacrifice themselves.

In the case of modern day Martyrdom, I think many westerners completely understand it, yet believe that the reasons for doing so are not as important as one's own life.

Most of us are Capitalists and the thought of giving yourself to a cause mentally and physically seems too closely related to fascism and socialism and it sends a chill through us. I'll still with Objectivism, personally. I'm not going to battle a Bulldozer for someone else, when I'd rather be laying on the beach, drinking a Margarita!

Sorry, but slashing yourself up on someone else's request or some "word" from god doesn't pay enough.

Lastly, the Brit or Bris, is not the main reason Jews still engage in this activity. Western medicine has found that circumcision is good preventative health care and minimizes the chance for infection. I really can't find any positive reason for slashing yourself with a knife, ever.

Around here, we use the word, Cookoo

[Batman]

Originally posted by cerulean
Elsewhere (I think on this forum also) there are pictures of Shi'ite parents slashing their own small children, following the same religious practice shown here.

under photos in this section:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=992
child abuse is evil and raises evil and sadistic people who are terrorists murderers

posts #5 and 6 have a few pictures that show the parents and the children

[andak01]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Personally, anything to do with al-Hussein disgusts me. I have no problem with these people, but al-Hussein has been a source of inspiration for bin-laden and he was a conspirator with Hitler. Todays fanaticists owe their miscontrued beliefs to his warped ideologies and his shameful and sacrilegeous interpretation of his faith. :mad:

Happy Passover to you as well. I must correct you. Bin Laden is a Sunni (May Allah lead his followers to the right path). Hussein is a hero of the Shiites. What drives Bin Laden is his interpretation that enjoining good and prohibiting evil includes doing battle against everyone in the West, even other Muslims. Ironically, the very quotes from the Qur'an, the so-called 'violent' quotes that are so famous on our talk shows are not what drive him. He probably interprets those as the historic references to the Meccans that they are.

There is simply nothing more perverse than imagining that driving home a policy of anti-Semitism is part of "enjoining the good". Supporting such a man, as we did during his days as a Mujahhiddeen was a great mistake. Using our intelligence, our police and our technology to hunt him down is a favor to the world. Using our bombs to kill anyone who comes near him is not.

The United States is also convinced that it is enjoining the good. I think that when an American soldier fires through an innocent mother and child in order to his a fediyeen "terrorist", he justifies his action. "That man is worse than me, so killing innocent people in order to kill him is justified." The fediyeen on the other hand deliberately tries to draw the American into committing war crimes, thinking that the soldier will balk at doing so. This is a tactic used by the Vietnamese. What they do not realize is how much stomach we have for killing. What the Germans only attempted to do with the Jews, my ancestors succeeded in doing to many Indian tribes; so much so, that even their languages and their tribal names are lost to us. Whereas the Baathists only are rumored to have possessed WDMs, it is we who have actually used them.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
]I think that when an American soldier fires through an innocent mother and child in order to his a fediyeen "terrorist", he justifies his action.
I trust that intelligent readers here at the Israel Forum will recognize the PROPAGANDA that you constantly slip into your text. This sentence is a particularly egregious example of your "immoderate" style.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by andak01
Happy Passover to you as well. I must correct you. Bin Laden is a Sunni (May Allah lead his followers to the right path). Hussein is a hero of the Shiites. What drives Bin Laden is his interpretation that enjoining good and prohibiting evil includes doing battle against everyone in the West, even other Muslims. Ironically, the very quotes from the Qur'an, the so-called 'violent' quotes that are so famous on our talk shows are not what drive him. He probably interprets those as the historic references to the Meccans that they are.

There is simply nothing more perverse than imagining that driving home a policy of anti-Semitism is part of "enjoining the good". Supporting such a man, as we did during his days as a Mujahhiddeen was a great mistake. Using our intelligence, our police and our technology to hunt him down is a favor to the world. Using our bombs to kill anyone who comes near him is not.

The United States is also convinced that it is enjoining the good. I think that when an American soldier fires through an innocent mother and child in order to his a fediyeen "terrorist", he justifies his action. "That man is worse than me, so killing innocent people in order to kill him is justified." The fediyeen on the other hand deliberately tries to draw the American into committing war crimes, thinking that the soldier will balk at doing so. This is a tactic used by the Vietnamese. What they do not realize is how much stomach we have for killing. What the Germans only attempted to do with the Jews, my ancestors succeeded in doing to many Indian tribes; so much so, that even their languages and their tribal names are lost to us. Whereas the Baathists only are rumored to have possessed WDMs, it is we who have actually used them.

Sorry Andak, but as you bleeding hearts say, "Not in Our Name", so:

Not in My Name can you say "we have a stomach for killing"
Not in My Name can you say "my ancestors succeeded in doing to many Indian tribes"
Not in My Name can you say "using our bombs to kill anyone"

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
I trust that intelligent readers here at the Israel Forum will recognize the PROPAGANDA that you constantly slip into your text. This sentence is a particularly egregious example of your "immoderate" style.

I'm sure that intelligent readers here don't need you to constantly crack on my opinions. But it's like those boxes on a Big Mac, you get 'em for free, so they must be good for something. :)

Forgive the graphic nature of my example. But we have destroyed the infrastructure of a modern nation on the grounds of WMDs. We owe it to our own fallen to show that Saddam was a threat to the world. My challenge still stands. If 100,000 Iraqis were killed and you can show me that that action saved 100,001 Israeli Jews, I'll dance for joy. Show me some WMDs. There haven't been 100,000 Iraqi deaths, but we have no idea what the toll really is. We should concern ourselves with our own casualties, but I would like to know. The count of journalists killed so far is 9.

I am including this link, although I am sure it will be discredited. Be my guest Michael, but this time bring me something better. What is CNN's estimate of civilian casualties? What is Fox's?
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

http://iafrica.com/news/us_terror/iraq/230586.htm

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
I'm sure that intelligent readers here don't need you to constantly crack on my opinions. But it's like those boxes on a Big Mac, you get 'em for free, so they must be good for something. :) Let me replace the statement that I commented upon. You call it a graphic example. I call it bullsh!t. An example is a restatement of something that happened. What you did was create an inflammatory and unsupported statement out of whole cloth in order to caste an evil light on America.

Originally posted by andak01
I think that when an American soldier fires through an innocent mother and child in order to his [sic] a fediyeen "terrorist", he justifies his action.
....[....]....we have destroyed the infrastructure of a modern nation on the grounds of WMDs.
Again, a statement that is not factually true. To say that we "destroyed" the infrastructure is just not so. To my knowledge we did not take out so much as one bridge, a prime military target. I have seen electrical plants, no visible damage, being restarted. Oil fields are starting to come online again. The fact is that the Coalition rigorously avoided infrastructure targets as best they could.

Please be honest with your accusations or you will merely become another Mohammed Saeed al Takeo. One of him is really more than we can stomach.
We owe it to our own fallen to show that Saddam was a threat to the world. My challenge still stands. If 100,000 Iraqis were killed and you can show me that that action saved 100,001 Israeli Jews, I'll dance for joy.
Even though you minimize your use of this number later in your post, I consider it propagandistic to include such a wildly speculative number at all.. There is no one on earth, even those who hate the U.S. avidly, who really claim such a thing. Get real.

Show me some WMDs
You don't seem to care about the torture chambers and the testimony of those who were subjected to abuses there. Nor do you appear to care about the mass graves, one of which yielded as many as 1500 bodies. You don't care about the crates with hundreds of bodies found in a warehouse in Basra. You don't care about the testimony of families with missing members, or about tales of public mutilations for speaking out against the regime,

But, since no WMDs have yet been found, you have chosen to continue harping on that as though it were the only reason we went after Saddam.

What will you be complaining about when the WMDs are accounted for? I'm sure you will think of something. After all, the U.S. couldn't possible be doing anything right.

You and al takeo are so bitter that the people of iraq are happy to be rid of saddam and no where near the amount of damage occured that you and he wished for to prove your points.

As for your links, I have no interest in going off and doing your research for you. If you have accusations and claims to make which you accompany with links, that is another matter. That is the purpose of links.

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
Originally posted by andak01
I think that when an American soldier fires through an innocent mother and child in order to his [sic] a fediyeen "terrorist", he justifies his action.

The example that does come to mind, there was no fediyeen standing behind. Seven women and children were killed at a checkpoint without a warning shot being fired. It's OK though, just colateral damage. Anyway, my 'fictitious' example was no where near as bad as these two incidents. I mention it, because I was hearing the fediyeen blamed for civilian casualties during the war. I'm surprised Saddam and his allies weren't blamed for friendly fire as well.
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/040103_nw_iraq_civilian_deaths.html
http://www.rense.com/general36/aner.htm

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_766690.html


Oil fields are starting to come online again. The fact is that the Coalition rigorously avoided infrastructure targets as best they could.

Particularly oil fields.

But, since no WMDs have yet been found, you have chosen to continue harping on that as though it were the only reason we went after Saddam.

Was it because he tortured people, like Pinoche or the Shah of Iran? Or was it because he committed genocide like Pol Pot (actually not)?

What will you be complaining about when the WMDs are accounted for? I'm sure you will think of something. After all, the U.S. couldn't possible be doing anything right.

Not bombing the mosque in Karbala and arresting the self-proclaimed mayor of Baghdad is a start. And I'm not at all unhappy that the war didn't drag on for months.

You and al takeo are so bitter that the people of iraq are happy to be rid of saddam and no where near the amount of damage occured that you and he wished for to prove your points.

I wish to be proven wrong on this one. I really for once would like to see that the people of Iraq are fed BEFORE the first Burger King goes up. Oops!

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/21/1050777195239.html

Or the people's security prioritized over the oil. Doh!
http://money.cnn.com/2003/04/23/news/international/war_iraq_output.reut/

[paulo]

But as Andak says this is the democratic process - Unfortunately not everybody thinks and acts in the same way in the world. And you won't make think your way by dropping bombs.

[ayesha]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
This is a perfect example of the Arab and Islamic culture that Israel and the Western world is facing. How can one reason with these people in Western terms? And, would you want to give these people their own country neighboring yours?

In the photo (taken April 22, 2003):

Two groups of 100 Shiite men in white robes slashed their heads with long, sharp swords, spraying blood on those near them, to symbolize their anguish over the slaying of Hussein, a grandson of the Prophet Muhammad.

All of this is haram (forbidden) Islamically. Shiites have long been out of the fold of Islam. I have seen these Shiites head slashing festivals when I was in Lebanon not long ago, it is outlawed in most of the ME. Nevertheless, I agree wholeheartedly with what you have said, although the majority of Pals are Sunni, not Shiite. They both follow different doctrines. One is based on innovation, the other on the Sunnah.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
Seven women and children were killed at a checkpoint without a warning shot being fired.
This statement is a LIE slyly slipped into andak's text. It was extensively covered in the press at the time of its occurrence. Not only were there warning shots, but it was shown that the driver had been coerced with death threats made to his family to create the incident which could then be used to demonstrate the "barbarity" of U.S. soldiers.

[andak01]

Originally posted by MichaelC
Not only were there warning shots, but it was shown that the driver had been coerced with death threats made to his family to create the incident which could then be used to demonstrate the "barbarity" of U.S. soldiers.

Thanks for that Michael, I'd like a source for that one. I can honestly say that the story was reported by some sources that no warning shot was fired.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s822136.htm
The US military has ordered an investigation into the incident, following allegations the platoon commander failed to fire any warning shots.

To be fair, it is premature to say either that a shot was fired or not. Of course an impartial jury of observers will decide this issue.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
Thanks for that Michael, I'd like a source for that one. I can honestly say that the story was reported by some sources that no warning shot was fired.

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s822136.htm
The US military has ordered an investigation into the incident, following allegations the platoon commander failed to fire any warning shots.

To be fair, it is premature to say either that a shot was fired or not. Of course an impartial jury of observers will decide this issue.
And my point both here and in other threads is that this is the tact you always take no matter what other options might be available. If its horrible and attributed to the U.S, then in your book it must be true.

I think I have figured out a point of confusion. Your original statement of seven civilian deaths was made without posting a source and I thought you were referring to the incident outside Basra, I believe it was, in which a van ran a checkpoint and seven people were killed. This was some time back while the war was still very much active.

But I still don't get why you and others are so amazed when people get killed in a war zone. It is obvious you have no military experience or your naivete would not be so gilded.

And, as usual, given a choice of understanding the dangers inherent in confrontations in a war zone, or just jumping in and trashing the U.S., people like you have been choosing the latter lately.

[andak01]

I brought up a moral issue previously, and I will touch on it again. At present, America is an invading army and an army of occupation. That may not always be the case, but it is for the moment. When an occupying army is given the choice to commit acts like killing innocent children or to leave and they remain in place, knowing that they will be forced to do more of the same, that is a moral decision. It may be true that the fediyeen, like the Viet Cong before them have mixed with civilians. We cannot prevent such a thing. What we can do, since we are the 'preemptive' invaders and since we have toppled the government is to leave or at least come up with improved checkpoints. The signs posted don't do much good in areas where people can't read. And Americans yelling warnings in English is just as good as not firing warning shots. But first we must find those pesky WMDs.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by andak01
I brought up a moral issue previously, and I will touch on it again. At present, America is an invading army and an army of occupation. That may not always be the case, but it is for the moment. When an occupying army is given the choice to commit acts like killing innocent children or to leave and they remain in place, knowing that they will be forced to do more of the same, that is a moral decision. It may be true that the fediyeen, like the Viet Cong before them have mixed with civilians. We cannot prevent such a thing. What we can do, since we are the 'preemptive' invaders and since we have toppled the government is to leave or at least come up with improved checkpoints. The signs posted don't do much good in areas where people can't read. And Americans yelling warnings in English is just as good as not firing warning shots. But first we must find those pesky WMDs.
Improved checkpoints is certainly a good idea and one which ought to be easier to implement as the country calms down

It would still be a good idea if angry mobs understood that confronting U.S. troops provides an excellent opportunity for fedayeen to get in some free shots and that troops defending themselves against such attacks are then subject to a one sided condemnation that is grist for the propaganda mill.

These people need to understand how such gatherings are being used for furthering the violence.

[Mediocrates]

It's a matter of role transition. Infantry and mobile armor is a poor choice for police duty. But that is exactly the role of military police (MP's). What they need to do is put MP's there.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
It's a matter of role transition. Infantry and mobile armor is a poor choice for police duty. But that is exactly the role of military police (MP's). What they need to do is put MP's there.
Precisely.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
It's a matter of role transition. Infantry and mobile armor is a poor choice for police duty. But that is exactly the role of military police (MP's). What they need to do is put MP's there.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0413-05.htm
http://istanbul.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/1568.php
http://www.latimes.com/classified/jobs/news/la-fi-cops18apr18,0,1704126.story?coll=la-class-employ-jobnews
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2002/11/000139.html
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=672
http://www.guerrillanews.com/corporate_crime/doc1590.html
http://www.iconmedia.org/mdp/csc_text.html
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0304/S00158.htm
http://www.rppi.org/warbusiness.html
http://www.csc.com/newsandevents/news/2072.shtml
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/iraq/20021016_389.html

[humus_sapiens]

What we can do, since we are the 'preemptive' invaders and since we have toppled the government is to leave or at least come up with improved checkpoints.

Don't forget, the checkpoints are SO humiliating for any self-respecting Arab that they will start blowing themselves up! Or is it only Jewish^H^H^H^H Zionist checkpoints?

[andak01]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Don't forget, the checkpoints are SO humiliating for any self-respecting Arab that they will start blowing themselves up! Or is it only Jewish^H^H^H^H Zionist checkpoints?

Are Palestinian Arabs equal to Iraqi Arabs? Are Americans equal to Israelis? It seems to me that some of the pitfalls both sides fall into is an oversimplification and a tendancy to pigeon-hole people. There are Iraqis that love America, but want them out of their country. There are Iraqis that want to manipulate the situation to achieve power. There are idealistic Iraqis. There are Iraqis that hate America, AND the Mullahs AND Saddam.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by andak01
.....

Ok so private firms then - - it makes no matter. Anyone but my friends from the 82nd Airborne.