Women at the Kotel

[Mediocrates]

So we're having a 'discussion' at home about a women's group that wants to be allowed to use the Kotel or part of it for their own service.

I'm sort of split 50-50 myself while my S.O. is very opposed.

Here are reasons for:

why not
the Orthodox don't rule everything
isn't pluralism part of the deal


Here are the reasons against:

slippery slope, who's next
can't make up rules on the fly
does not increase or maintain Judaism



Your thoughts?


Also on related front, should women be allowed to us tzitzit and tefillin? Are there any Conservative out there who have experienced the change from quasi-Orthodox w/ no women on the Bima, etc. to the Egalitarian service commonly used today? Was it a shock?

[eyl]

There was an article in Ma'ariv a view weeks ago on women at the Wall (The article in Hebrew can be viewed here (http://images.maariv.co.il/cache/cachearchive/18042003/ART466157.html)). According to a rabbi interviewed in the article, there's no bar under the Halacha against women praying at the Wall (or, to answer your question, on laying teffilin and wearing tallitot); the problem is that the Orthodox rabbis and establishment are afraid that any loosening of strictures, even if it is within the Halacha, will cause Orthodox Jews to stray to Reform Judaism.

[Mediocrates]

Are they wrong? No one is saying Masorti or Reform is invalid - they're saying that if the Kotel is an Orthodox shul then those rules apply.

Does this enlarge or maintain Judaism?

[eyl]

Except that according to that article, even considering the Kotel as an Orthodox shul, women should still be allowed to pray there, according to the Halacha (note that at least according to their own testimony, the women involved are Orthodox, not Reform or Conservative).

[Mediocrates]

Yes that is correct of course. And all they would need is a curtain between them. It would seem, yes?

But on the other hand I do see the slippery slope argument. Who's next? How far do you bend the rules? I am only interested in enlarging or maintaining Judaism. I see pretty regularly Jewish congregations making up stuff on the fly, making up new rituals, rules, exclusions and generally becoming wrapped up in calling themselves self appointed experts. Where does it end? When we're all Unitarians? I don't think that the Orthodox have a fundamentally wrong approach.

[eyl]

Well, yes and no.

I do understand the slippery slope argument. OTOH, I'm not sure the Orthodox rabbis (at least in Israel) have a firm idea of the actual practises of Reform Jews (I've found that at least some of what I assumed to be true about them is in error). Maybe more to the point, if the Orthodox are unwilling to change or update Judaism (and there are some things which are desperately in need of changing, IMO) they can't turn around and forbid things the Halacha permits.


Originally posted by Mediocrates
Yes that is correct of course. And all they would need is a curtain between them. It would seem, yes?

But on the other hand I do see the slippery slope argument. Who's next? How far do you bend the rules? I am only interested in enlarging or maintaining Judaism. I see pretty regularly Jewish congregations making up stuff on the fly, making up new rituals, rules, exclusions and generally becoming wrapped up in calling themselves self appointed experts. Where does it end? When we're all Unitarians? I don't think that the Orthodox have a fundamentally wrong approach.

[JustPat]

Were the Temple still in place there would be no discussion for the structure and practice would answer the question. But, how are the women provided for under current conditions? How can they fulfill the desire of their heart if they are forbidden?

To me, it is not about updating Judaism or adjusting rules. It is more about giving those who seek to exercise their pursuit of G_d the freedom and ability to do so. How can a way be made without violating the Halacha is a problem left to the Rabbis and students of the Law.

[Communication]

Originally posted by JustPat
Were the Temple still in place there would be no discussion for the structure and practice would answer the question. But, how are the women provided for under current conditions? How can they fulfill the desire of their heart if they are forbidden?

To me, it is not about updating Judaism or adjusting rules. It is more about giving those who seek to exercise their pursuit of G_d the freedom and ability to do so. How can a way be made without violating the Halacha is a problem left to the Rabbis and students of the Law.

Great Comment! Thanks, JustPat. :cool:

[Mediocrates]

Judaism updates itself w/o forcing Orthodox to change. Why would you want to erase the differences among Orthodox, Conservative, Refrom, Reconstructionist and so on?

There are lots of things that are not Halacha which are left up to Rabbis, matrilineal descent for example..... As I said there are already mechanisms to do that don't require changes to Orthodox. Why would you want to change Orthodox?

(If the Temple were still in place there would probably be no Talmud)

[Communication]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Judaism updates itself w/o forcing Orthodox to change. Why would you want to erase the differences among Orthodox, Conservative, Refrom, Reconstructionist and so on?

There are lots of things that are not Halacha which are left up to Rabbis, matrilineal descent for example..... As I said there are already mechanisms to do that don't require changes to Orthodox. Why would you want to change Orthodox?

Personally, I have problems with all of them, so if I had to chose one branch of Judaism out of a longing for community, I would probably go in wanting to "change" something about it.

There are problems with the battle for legitimacy and authority, which is not only something that occurs between the different branches but also within them as well. Such is Judaism, but as you mention yourself, Judaism updates itself without calling it a "change" so much as a "revelation" for how to interpret the original source material. I would say let the orthodox do as they please and if you don't like it, go to another branch, but the problem is that the orthodox are the most likely to confront issues relating to Jewish law and the opportunities to introduce a feminist perspective are very limited. Even when you see an arguably feminist perspective in the talmud, it's still written by men. Why should any man, whether he be reform or orthodox control how we express our spirituality? I understand the importance of seperating men from women during prayer, I'm very heterosexual myself, but there should be an option where we all learn from each other both in study and prayer. After all, the very model for how all Jews should pray was presented to us through a barren woman.

[Mediocrates]

Ok that's reasonable but not integral to liturgy is it? Particular directions or 'tolerances' about feminism and gay rights are not actually ensconced in anything uniqe about Orthodox or Masorti vs. anything elser. They are a reflection of the people who participate in them. For example Agunoth is a problem in the Orthodox community specifically because a Get is vital if the woman wishes to remain part of the community. OTOH gay rights tends not to be included in the issues that are of importance to people who insist on being Orthodox. I'm sure there is a discussion about this in O.U. but it's fairly low key.

I wonder if you are familiar with Rebbetzin Rachel Jungreis and the Shineni movement? It is an Orthodox spin on feminism.



Hmmm ....wanting to change Juidaism , how Jewish of you. In my heart I know that the long run survival of Judaism is dependent on Orthodox (of all kinds from O.U. to Lubavitch to Satmar and beyond) but it's tempting to wish there was a way to reconcile elements of others as well. I know at Edah there is a body of study that talks about pluralism within the context of putting fences around the Torah but I don't think this has progressed much in several years. I would like to see this amplified as a working discussion in Israel. Unfortunately their electoral politics tends to amplify the power of extremists so there is little reason for them to become less extreme.

[JustPat]

Considering the role of women in key points in Jewish history - Deborah, Huldah, etc - Would it not be most unwise to seek to limit thier involvement, be it in prayer, study, or practice?

[Mediocrates]

Yes ergo the story "Yentl", yes? This seems to be the main development of Conservative in the last 30 years, the Egalitarian orientation to it. Today women have the same obligations as men unlike a generation ago when a woman in Conservative still would not touch the Torah. This is what I like to see. But the overarching problem is that Conservative itself is not growing unlike both Reform and Orthodox so it seems that it's own middle of the road approach is missing the mark.

(BTW this is same conversation that some Conservative Southern Baptists have - I wonder if they can offer anything to this)

[Communication]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Ok that's reasonable but not integral to liturgy is it? Particular directions or 'tolerances' about feminism and gay rights are not actually ensconced in anything uniqe about Orthodox or Masorti vs. anything elser. They are a reflection of the people who participate in them. For example Agunoth is a problem in the Orthodox community specifically because a Get is vital if the woman wishes to remain part of the community. OTOH gay rights tends not to be included in the issues that are of importance to people who insist on being Orthodox. I'm sure there is a discussion about this in O.U. but it's fairly low key.

I wonder if you are familiar with Rebbetzin Rachel Jungreis and the Shineni movement? It is an Orthodox spin on feminism.



Hmmm ....wanting to change Juidaism , how Jewish of you. In my heart I know that the long run survival of Judaism is dependent on Orthodox (of all kinds from O.U. to Lubavitch to Satmar and beyond) but it's tempting to wish there was a way to reconcile elements of others as well. I know at Edah there is a body of study that talks about pluralism within the context of putting fences around the Torah but I don't think this has progressed much in several years. I would like to see this amplified as a working discussion in Israel. Unfortunately their electoral politics tends to amplify the power of extremists so there is little reason for them to become less extreme.

How do I tread lightly in this thread? As I mentioned, I am critical of certain aspects of all the major strands (and nobody has even mentioned "renewal" Judaism, which is becoming an increasingly interesting strand competing with the reform movement) and I certainly posses my own prejudices. Regarding liturgy, I think I was reacting more to JustPat's comments. I'm not familiar with either the Rebbetzin Rachel Jungreis or the Shineni movements, but if you think that it's something I would be interested in, I'll certainly check them out. I'm always interested in what's going on as a whole.

As far as building a fence around the torah, I don't buy the argument that banning women from laying teffilin and wearing tallitot helps to keep Jews from moving towards reform Judaism. It's an exclusionary practice that does nothing to enhance orthodox Judaism. In fact, although women are technically considered exempt from the obligation to perform the mitzvah of tefillin, as eyl pointed out, there is nothing that should prevent a woman from performing it if she desires for herself a way to symbolize the tying of her physical and mental capacities to the service of God. Mikhal, King Saul's daugther, wore tefillin, as did Rashi's daughters, and none of the Sages objected. Moreover, they also ruled that there is nothing to prevent a woman from reciting the berakha as men do. Thus, allowing women to perform these mitzvot is not only consistent with Jewish tradition, but to outwardly ban the practice should be considered a break from our tradition.

*******deleted (poor judgement)******

[JustPat]

In all seriousness, are the issues of women particpating in various traditions related to the issues of "clean" and "unclean"? How many days a month would women actually be eligible to participate? Or is this more of a cultural issue where the women were wxpected to be raising babies and thus were not so much excluded, but rather, simply left out by the understnding that they were just too busy with daily life to be able to participate?

[Mediocrates]

How do I tread lightly in this thread? As I mentioned, I am critical of certain aspects of all the major strands (and nobody has even mentioned "renewal" Judaism, which is becoming an increasingly interesting strand competing with the reform movement)

What’s it about – what does it do?


I'm not familiar with either the Rebbetzin Rachel Jungreis or the Shineni movements, but if you think that it's something I would be interested in, I'll certainly check them out. I'm always interested in what's going on as a whole.

My bad, it’s Esther Jungreis and it’s Hineini


As far as building a fence around the torah, I don't buy the argument that banning women from laying teffilin and wearing tallitot helps to keep Jews from moving towards reform Judaism.

That of course is 100% true as a specific preclusion for Orthodox vs. Reform. All preclusions are meant in the context of apikorsim (ok maybe not that bad but it’s really the direction of it.) But if that what was stopping you from being Orthodox (and I’m not saying it is, merely if it was) then you would probably go to the Conservatives or the Reform or ….wouldn’t you. But for men that is not a valid argument.

In fact for the old schoolers this is a pretty valid reason to do exactly as you say –to keep people in Orthdox. Look none of this is entirely rational is it? If you grew up davening a way and then you were asked to accept something different you would reject it, I think. If this new way didn’t enhance your own personal experience, I mean. That's just a statement of human prejudice.

I also think there are degrees even of this. I Here in US we have a curtain or a wall or a half wall. In my family’s shul in France the women (and children) are upstairs in the balcony and they don’t even have to hold books. It’s pure spectator Judaism.


It's an exclusionary practice that does nothing to enhance orthodox Judaism. In fact, although women are technically considered exempt from the obligation to perform the mitzvah of tefillin, as eyl pointed out, there is nothing that should prevent a woman from performing it if she desires for herself a way to symbolize the tying of her physical and mental capacities to the service of God.

Ok I give you that – but it’s something that makes Orthodox less Orthodox. Maybe not by someone else’s standards but by their own. That’s the ‘maintain’ part of the argument. So I would turn that on its head and ask you. What is it about Orthodox you want to change that you can’t get from another group? What is it that you want to hold dear? For example I think Reform Choirs are not correct. I think accompanied music in shul is not right. But I’m not knocking down their doors to demand they stop it either. I’m not all that hit in the head with Reform generally as I think it places far too much effort on Jewish culture and not enough on Jewish literacy. To me it does not enhance Judaism to have a B’nai Mitzvah where no one reads Hebrew and the Davar Torah is about social and political issues. That’s what BBYO, AZA and others are for. But that's my problem not theirs.


Mikhal, King Saul's daugther, wore tefillin, as did Rashi's daughters, and none of the Sages objected. Moreover, they also ruled that there is nothing to prevent a woman from reciting the berakha as men do. Thus, allowing women to perform these mitzvot is not only consistent with Jewish tradition, but to outwardly ban the practice should be considered a break from our tradition.

Yes that is true. So much of what we take for granted is not grounded in anything more than “We’ve always done it this way, nu?” I do not know what would happen if you simply ignored convention and went ahead and did it. Do you? I imagine the initial murmuring and hissing would be something else! But then they would probably get over it. And if they don't? Well...tough darts.


People my age are born as Americans and grow up American in every sense, although many Jews as they get a little older want to retain some kind of attachment to our heritage,

This is precisely why the salvation for all American Jewry lies only in continual education as a lifelong process. Take 500 bucks invest in a good starter home Jewish Library and read it. Go to continuing ed. Keep learning or else as you say – your connection to Judaism will be that you used to participate. The Greatest Danger is assimilation because it’s so easy. All it requires is to do nothing. What is needed is a Jewish education system an order of magnitude better qualified and better funded. We need an educational core that is as good as the tradition of Quaker Schools in the US.


I suspect that the reform movement and the renewal movement will compete for members in the future.

I’m sure they will but at intermarriage rates over 60% it’s hard to determine WHO they will be fighting over.


As far as the conservative movment goes, I suspect that the conservative strands and modern orthodox will become increasngly fused, as you mentioned before, Mediocrates, "Conservadox."

In part. I think you will see larger numbers of families who are affiliated to both, as we are. Work in one, learn in the other. I think the O.U. is able to attract enough young people long enough to give them a sound base. I only hope that it continues to be attractive. I also think that O.U. needs to develop an outreach program that can replace or compete with Hillel organizations. And from that foundation you will see a slowly modernizing Orthodoxy. In fact now is the time since when the economy falters more people enter Rabbincal school.


Traditional orthodoxy is becoming increasingly incompatible with Torah Umadda, especially when it comes to the far right haredi.

Well it’s true that Jewish fundamentalism is incompatible with secular wisdom. I’m not at all sure that’s true for other types of Orthodoxy. There are many famous well known Orthodox sex therapists, psychiatrists, sociologists, economists, media experts, lawyers (of course) and philosophers. I don't see the extreme Orthodox as being concerned with the rest of us so I'm not all that concerned with them either. I want them to thrive but as long as we're all heathen bastards to them they should find their own way in the world.


It seems to me that the negotiation between conservative and modern orthodox has been well underway for many years, so it will be interesting to see how that negotiation develops.

With shouting and arguments like everything else.


Go through whatever passages you like and see how all three comment on them (especially the more controversial ones involving women, homosexuality, but others as well). You'll find relatively little commentary in Stone, leaving each individual reader to struggle with the text. The reform movement opens the door to everything. For example, regarding homosexuality, the commentary references Freud and the practices of the ancient Greeks. Etz Hayim is the most interesting to me from a theological perspective, because you can see an attempt to liberalize interpretation, and yet there is still a desire to tie it back to the authority of the text itself.

I think that is an attempt to make something ineffable more understandable to people who may not have the correct basis or are missing something important? It’s interesting religious philosophy or literary criticism and we already know that there is a strong modern urge to apply literary criticism to Torah, but is that religion? The Torah wasn’t written with Freud or Aristotle in mind.

But I don’t find Stone something to struggle over any more than I have difficulty reading Paradise Lost w/o footnotes. The beauty is in the words themselves. When we read Bresheit, the English is simple enough. “In the Beginning”. It’s the monumental significance of understanding that pretty much the whole rest of the Torah is a clarification of that sentence that’s important. I suppose we take from it what we do and for that I am grateful to Reform for attempting to embrace a wider audience with a new vocabulary but that’s just the beginning. ‘Vernacular’ Bibles are only a start.


Did I venture too far off track from the thread?

No, this is the track.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by JustPat
In all seriousness, are the issues of women particpating in various traditions related to the issues of "clean" and "unclean"? How many days a month would women actually be eligible to participate? Or is this more of a cultural issue where the women were wxpected to be raising babies and thus were not so much excluded, but rather, simply left out by the understnding that they were just too busy with daily life to be able to participate?


Yes all of that to some extent, just like most other cultures. It's also in part to do with the culture of shul itself. If I put my historian hat on I see a Diaspora culture that was very economically inbred and had use shul as a vital binding agent to hold the community together economically socially and in all other ways. I think in part it was where 'things got done'. And so the men tended to exclude women on that basis too.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I Here in US we have a curtain or a wall or a half wall. In my family’s shul in France the women (and children) are upstairs in the balcony and they don’t even have to hold books. It’s pure spectator Judaism.
Did this not start at the foot of the Mount when Israel cried out for Moses to be the only one that G_d would speak to? Amazing how little has changed since then.


Originally posted by Mediocrates
So much of what we take for granted is not grounded in anything more than “We’ve always done it this way, nu?” I do not know what would happen if you simply ignored convention and went ahead and did it. Do you? I imagine the initial murmuring and hissing would be something else! But then they would probably get over it. And if they don't? Well...tough darts.
Seven words that reveal you are dead: "We've never done it that way before." As a friend of mine is fond of noting, there are those whose battle cry is, "My daddy was a fool, my granddaddy was a fool, his daddy before him was a fool. If it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me." When King David broght the Ark to Jerusalem, wasn't he just a little unconventional?


Originally posted by Mediocrates
This is precisely why the salvation for all American Jewry lies only in continual education as a lifelong process. Take 500 bucks invest in a good starter home Jewish Library and read it. Go to continuing ed. Keep learning or else as you say – your connection to Judaism will be that you used to participate. The Greatest Danger is assimilation because it’s so easy. All it requires is to do nothing. What is needed is a Jewish education system an order of magnitude better qualified and better funded. We need an educational core that is as good as the tradition of Quaker Schools in the US..
AMEN!

[Communication]

Oyeish! I don't know how you managed to revive the portions of my post that I deleted. I felt so bad after posting all that. The last thing I want to do is exacerbate the divisions between different branches of Judaism. In my heart of hearts, what I really want to do is bridge those gaps, not make things worse.

My last final paper is due tomorrow and then I'm off for summer vacation (1 1/2 months of travel with friends across the states and then two weeks in Israel before starting law school :) ). I'm going to write a good-bye post before leaving. I don't have too much time to respond now, but I want to answer a few comments:


Originally posted by Mediocrates

But I don’t find Stone something to struggle over any more than I have difficulty reading Paradise Lost w/o footnotes.


That's the whole point, to struggle with the text. We are "Israel" are we not, those who struggle with both God and man. There is beauty in wrestling with these words, and through them we strive to understand ourselves in relation to our fellows, God and all of creation.


Originally posted by Mediocrates

What is it about Orthodox you want to change that you can’t get from another group? What is it that you want to hold dear?


There are particular issues that I have with particular practices resonating from particular strands of orthodoxy. Is that particular enough? ;) For the record, orthodox women by and large happen to be some of the most fulfilled Jewish women I have met. Many of these women are prominent members of their communities, doctors, lawyers, teachers, the whole spectrum of professions and yet the importance of family remains central in their lives. The difference is, that they have entire communities behind them to help make all this possible.

In any event, I look to orthodoxy to build my foundation in Jewish literacy. I took a class last semester through the graduate program in Jewish studies to determine whether I wanted to pursue a Ph.D. By the time the semester was up, I knew that the academic world, because for me it lacked the spiritual component that I am looking for, would not be enough to sustain me long term. Also, I don't want to make a career out of torah. But it did give me some very valuable tools for analyzing texts that I will continue to leverage. But I'm really just beginning here, I don't know where I'm going with all this. I can see how a person could appreciate Jewish literacy from a purely secular viewpoint and I respect that because it's brilliant in an intellectual sense. Often, I have thought that the sum total of everything that I have learned and will ever learn will be purely intellectual and that would be enough. Maybe that will be how I ultimately relate to Jewish wisdom.

On a few rare occassions, however, I have been so profoundly affected by text that I can honestly say that my orientation in the world changed, ever so slightly, but enough to make me wonder whether I had in fact stmbled on to a path that could one day lead me to Pardes. When this happens, there is no comparison in terms of the genuiness of euphoria (we Jews have a love affair with learning) and I realize how short life would be if I didn't spend it striving to really learn who I am, the very notion of which is so full of contradictions in terms of scale and description. And that is why I spend so much time building my base. I don't want to be fooled by my own sense of proportion about what Judaism can achieve. So far, I haven't figured out what the limits are, but I suspect that it has the capacity to impact my life in profound and concrete ways. I already appreciate so much more, I'm more cognizant, I have more compassion, many things...including my realization that some things are worth fighting to protect, for the right to develop, to defend. So you and I see eye-to-eye on what's at stake here, the greatest tragedy for the Jewish people will be for Jews to lose our knowledge of Jewish literacy overtime. It's already happening, it's been happening. I like your idea on funding private libraries. That would be a good start.

[Mediocrates]

tzedek tzedek, tirdorf.

[Mediocrates]

This is a piece from Aish.

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/women/Banishing_Barbie.asp

"Banishing Barbie
by Chaya Rivkah Jessel
Although often at ideological loggerheads, both feminism and traditional Judaism share a common goal -- upholding and ensuring the dignity of women.


The other day two events took place that revealed the intrinsic connection between my past and present life.

The first occurred in the morning while I was sorting out my desk. I came across some old photographs that transported me across time, across continents, and ultimately into another life. In this other life, I was a non-religious university student, fiercely committed to women's rights. The snapshots showed me and several of my friends attending an International Women's Day Rally. The memories of that day came flooding back --banners, speeches, color everywhere, music, drama, camaraderie, sisterhood, ideals worth fighting for, beliefs worth defending, support for women, struggle for women, rights for women, dignity for women..."


<more at the link - this is a piece that talks about 'observant feminism'>

[l_prior]

Look, I understand that we are living in a pollitically correct age now but surely this is taking everything a bit too far. Certainly most of the ladies I know find women laying teffilin in public offensive, and these are not particually orthadox women I am talking to.

I understand there is an argument that women are left out of judaism but both sexes are free to pick up a siddur and worship from it, but this tallis doning teffillin laying trend that is happening is taking things a bit to far. I am not a bigot but are we then to assume that women can be counted in a minun? I do not see that by ladies using these articals that they become more holy.

But however-much I dislike the issue I am more passionate that israel is for all jews and everyone has a right to worship at the Kotel and to do anything they wish to in a free country. However if these practases go on then fair enough but I feel a curtain should be set up on the right side of the wall to curtain off these activaties from people that find them offensive to both men and women.

[Communication]

Rabbi: Women allowed to read from the Torah

By Yair Sheleg



Women can perform the act of aliyah la-Torah and
even read from the Torah, says Professor Rabbi
Daniel Sperber, an Orthodox rabbi who is also the
chairman of Hemed, the public council that advises
the Education Ministry about national religious
education.




The word aliyah means
"ascending" and refers to the
act of going up to the Torah
(which is read from the bima on
a level higher than that of the
congregation, signifying its
holiness) and reciting the
blessing over the Torah. The
question of whether women are
allowed to perform the act has

been one of the most contentious issues between
Orthodox Jewry and other Jewish schools of
thought.

Sperber, a Talmud professor and an Israel Prize
Laureate, stated this opinion in the recent
issue of Deot, a publication of one of the
liberal movements of religious Zionism.

Although Sperber is careful not to refer to his
article as a ruling, this is apparently the
first time an Orthodox rabbi permits women to
perform the act of aliyah.

Sperber states that the prohibition on women was
limited from the outset. According to Megillah
tractate of the Gemara, "All may be included
among the seven [called to the Torah on
Shabbat], even a minor and a woman," but the
Sages said a woman should not read from the
Torah because of the dignity of the
congregation (kevod ha-tsibbur).

Sperber quotes a popular interpretation for the
phrase "dignity of the congregation," according
to which this dignity is only compromised when
none of the men present can read the Torah, and
if a woman reads the men will be shamed.
Therefore, ostensibly, in this day and age when
most men can read the Torah, this reason to bar
women is no longer relevant.

Moreover, Sperber notes it is not clear whether
the statement that a woman should not read from
the Torah because of the dignity of the
congregation was ever a categoric ruling or a
mere recommendation.

Sperber also quoted some relatively recent
Halakhic rulers who said the prohibition is
limited to certain circumstances. Rabbi Meir
(the Maharam) of Rutenberg, a 13th century
Jewish scholar who was considered quite a
conservative where women were concerned, stated
that, where there are not enough men who can
read, "the dignity of the congregation will
take second priority."

Rabbi Yosef Karo, the author of Shulchan Aruch,
stated that "everyone can be among the seven
called to the Torah, even women," and it was
only later interpreters of his writings who
hedged this statement and set the condition
that not all seven be women or minors.

The decisive argument, according to Sperber, is
the argument that the concept of the dignity of
the congregation, which from the start was
unclear, is now offset by the value of kevod
ha-briyot - the dignity of individuals; in this
case, the dignity of women who are barred from
reading the Torah.

Sperber offers proof that the reasoning of kevod
ha-briyot was throughout generations used as a
decisive factor whenever there was doubt in
Halakhic rulings; it should be applied in the
same way in this case, Sperber states.

Sperber explains that his article is not in
response to women who have recently started
reading the Torah alongside men at Shira
Hadasha community in Jerusalem. Rather, he is
responding to a debate in Edah, a publication
of the modern Orthodox community in the United
States.

Sperber's article will likely enable many women
and perhaps entire communities to allow women
to perform the act of aliyah. However, Sperber
feels that, in his own synagogue in the Old
City of Jerusalem, his point of view will not
be accepted. "They are so conservative that I
cannot even convince them that a woman can
dance with the Torah scroll on Simchas Torah."

[Communication]

Originally posted by l_prior
Look, I understand that we are living in a pollitically correct age now but surely this is taking everything a bit too far. Certainly most of the ladies I know find women laying teffilin in public offensive, and these are not particually orthadox women I am talking to.

I've also heard African Americans refer to each other as "nigger." What's your point?


Originally posted by l_prior
I understand there is an argument that women are left out of judaism but both sexes are free to pick up a siddur and worship from it, but this tallis doning teffillin laying trend that is happening is taking things a bit to far. I am not a bigot but are we then to assume that women can be counted in a minun? I do not see that by ladies using these articals that they become more holy.

But however-much I dislike the issue I am more passionate that israel is for all jews and everyone has a right to worship at the Kotel and to do anything they wish to in a free country. However if these practases go on then fair enough but I feel a curtain should be set up on the right side of the wall to curtain off these activaties from people that find them offensive to both men and women.

I'll give you your curtain. But don't pretend that your reaction has anything to do with Judaism. If it did, you would be looking for curtains to prevent you from having to look at all those rabbis with facial blemishes.

[Mediocrates]

Please read this if you get a chance. It's not too long, about 21 pages and well worth it.

http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/essayoncontemp.html

This essay is a brief and tentative exploration of a dilemma that will remain a powerful force in our communal affairs for years to come. While our intellect and powers of observation allow us to understand the situation we are in - including the harm that is being done to our community - it is beyond our reach to bring about significant improvement. All of our organizations and institutions, as well as our money and other resources, including our planning skill, intellectual capabilities, and even our determination cannot be employed, at least not now, to alter patterns in Jewish life that we surely would like to change, if only because they cut off too much of American Jewry from the great legacy and story of our people.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Mediocrates

What is needed is a Jewish education system an order of magnitude better qualified and better funded. We need an educational core that is as good as the tradition of Quaker Schools in the US.


A Jewish education system that is affordable for the average Jewish family with several children. Often the tuition is out of reach for these families.

[Mediocrates]

Yes - that is true. Vouchers anyone?

But just as clearly the quality of Jewish education must be improved as well. The standard minimum is 6 hrs/week and few 'Hebrew School' programs meet even that. As a result even Jewish day schools are weakened and become little more than 'Jewish sponsored'.

[Communication]

Rabbi Natan asked the Prophet Elijah, “What did the Holy One, blessed be He, do at that that moment?”

“God smiled and said: `My sons have defeated Me, My sons have defeated Me!”

[Communication]

A famous Hasidic story tells of a man who went about his town slandering his rabbi. One day, realizing how vicious his comments had been, he went to the rabbi and asked for forgiveness. The rabbi told the man he would forgive him on one condition: that he go home, cut up a feather pillow, and scatter the feathers to the winds. The man did so, then returned to the rabbi.

"Am I forgiven now?" he asked.

"One more thing," the rabbi said. "Now go and gather all the feathers."

"But that's impossible," the man said.

"Precisely," the rabbi answered. "And although you sincerely regret the damage you have done me, it is as impossible to undo it as it is to recover all the feathers."

[Communication]

In one of the barracks several hundred Jews gathered to celebrate Simhat Torah. But since there was no Sefer Torah, how could they organize the traditional procession with the sacred scrolls? As they were trying to solve the problem, an old man noticed a young boy standing there looking on and dreaming. “Do you remember what you learned in heder?” asked the man. “Yes, I do, replied the boy. “Really?” said the man, “you really remember Sh’ma Yisrael?” “I remember much more”, said the boy. “Sh’ma Yisrael is enough”, said the man. And he lifted the boy, clasped him in his arms and began dancing with him as though he were the Torah. And all joined in.




I'll be back later to answer the thread, Mediocrates. Have a good day, Everybody!

[Mediocrates]

Thanks - I thought I'd poke this with a stick some more and add this short piece:

http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/orwell.html

Here I think is the relevant excerpt:

Nevertheless, proponents of contemporary "new traditions" no doubt rejoice in the court's embrace of their oxymoronic stance. What they might ponder, though, as might joyous ramparts-chargers in other contexts, is just what might lie ahead. Surely, if the Israeli court's decision is not rendered moot by new, clearer, legislation, there will be no grounds for stopping at public "Women of the Wall" services or Reform services or even "Humanistic Judaism" services (that latter group unabashedly touting atheism as a branch of Judaism) at the Kotel. Nothing will prevent a Hebrew Christian group from asserting its own new Jewish "tradition", complete with symbols and chanting, at the Wall that once was a place of deeply Jewish tradition and peace.

[JustPat]

In thinking about this discussion, I am sad to see how far we have fallen from the heart that brought us the Temple. the Scriptures clearly tell us that King David was "a man after G_d's own heart" and that he brought worship to Jerusalem so that G_d might be exalted for all to see. He commissioned round the clock worship and set forth the vision and resources for the first Temple. His heart, G_d's heart was to see people come to the place where they could meet Him and exalt Him. If our traditions exclude those whose heart is to worship G_d, should they not be revisited? If some idiot wants to be included just because he breathes, (what would an athiest be doing at the wal anyhow) are we obligated to accomodate him? We must reject what G_d abhors, but we also are obligated to welcome all He welcomes, are we not? If "Jewish Christians" seek to worship at the wall and bring their petitions, are we able to discern their hearts and reject their request. Perhaps the discussion is not about women or aliens, perhaps it is about worshipers or heathen.

[Communication]

Oh my Gosh, you people keep making this more and more complicated. I posted a response a while back in this thread that was so convoluted, that it practically didn't make any sense. You guys are touching on such an enormous problem and it’s such an important one. I don’t know if I’m up for this.

For me, the issue is primarily one of identity. The authors are worried about the slippery slope of change in Judaism, whether the concern is raised through the topic of women’s roles, intermarriage or messianic Judaism. [As an aside, JustPat, I thought you had left. You swooped in at the most opportune time, so I guess we’ll have to see just how evenhanded we all are.

To begin with, to be a Jew, I think we can all agree that you have to in the very least, have an appreciation for your community- you have to love your people. How that’s actually manifested is up to the individual, although that in itself can be problematic. At what point do you become an Elisha Ben Abuyah- an “Aher?” Now you see the difficulty I have with this debate, Mediocrates?

Next, how does someone develop a love for their people? That’s one question, and I suppose it’s an issue of strategy. We can explore those strategies in this thread and I’ll give you my own personal experiences on that because I’ve spent a lot of time questioning Jews my age from many different backgrounds on the matter, and then there’s my own situation.

After you develop an emotional bond with the community, how do you then express it within the parameters of the community, and what are those parameters? In other words, who really is entitled to call themselves a “Jew” rather than simply an advocate of the Jewish people? Since it’s not merely a question of blood, the issue is whether we now perceive of ourselves as a nation or a religion. The question didn’t even exist until the 19th century, and that’s exactly what Zionism attempted to address. But we are starting to see how problematic the solution was.

The nation of Israel is made up of citizens, many of whom either don’t identify with the Jewish people at all, or are not halachicly Jewish. We have a country with a national anthem that means more to the millions of Jews who live outside of the country than it does to many of Israel’s own citizens. And while Israel’s Declaration of Independence encompasses people of all faiths, the nation itself has no constitution. That’s not necessarily a problem by itself, since England doesn’t have one either. But if we are to perceive of the Jewish state as a “rebirth” of our nation, then it already has a constitution- it’s the torah. And yet, Israel doesn’t maintain the right to citizenship based on a pledge to uphold the torah. All this isn’t so dire, however, even if you look at the worst case scenario of what’s happening there now. Israel may not be a Jewish state, but that doesn’t prevent it from being a country where the majority or at least a large portion of its’ citizens are Jewish. Israel is still our spiritual and cultural capital.

The problem with the diaspora is even more complicated, although unlike the situation in Israel, we have had a little more time to mull it over. The conditions that existed in the diaspora for over 2000 years that allowed the Jewish people to sustain itself as a nation no longer exist. So secular Jews will need to increasingly look to the nation of Israel as a source of identity or they will need to become increasingly involved in Judaism. So here, we can finally start talking about compromises when it comes to building fences around [actually to] the torah. For all those secular Jews out there, I think that you need to find a way from the secular world to the torah, because many of them don’t even realize when they light their menorah candles that that’s what it’s really about.

The reason you have a slippery slope to begin with is that secular Jews, especially my age, have lost our center of gravity. It’s no wonder why our customs have been rendered meaningless and therefore abandoned, trivialized or usurped. You have to find a way from the secular world back to the torah. The author is going the wrong direction.

[Communication]

Do you guys know what I mean by all that? Maybe we should focus on strategies and methods of education. There's actually quite a lot going on right now that gives me reason to feel encouraged about the future for Jews in the US. Of course there's much more that can be done, Much-Much more, but it's not as dire as the authors make it out to be. They are clinging to something instead of looking for ways to renew what's sacred. I don't think the focus should be on compromises, but it does involve understanding where people are coming from and then speaking to them in words that they understand, and for secular Jews, that language is identity. Secular Jews, like any other ethnic group in this country, are looking for their culture. So I think you need to build that up first, like they do in Israel, and then you fill the culture with Jewish values and themes while giving people avenues for self expression. The starting point should be with the hebrew language, and not just biblical hebrew. There is something special about reading Jewish literature in hebrew.

[Mediocrates]

Jewish Week Wireless(News)

Choice Words (07/11/2003)
Michele Chabin - Israel Correspondent
(Israel) Statement by new Interior minister fuels optimism on recognition of non-Orthodox conversions.

Jerusalem Leaders of the Reform and Conservative movements in Israel, sensing that the political winds may be blowing their way in the bitter who is a Jew debate, say they are somewhat hopeful that the Ministry of the Interior may soon officially recognize the conversions they perform in Israel.

This guarded optimism stems from recent remarks by Avraham Poraz, the country’s newly appointed Interior minister, that all conversions to Judaism, regardless of where they take place and under whose auspices, should be recognized for the purposes of Israeli citizenship.

In a statement issued this week, Poraz asked Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to reconsider the criteria by which the Chief Rabbinate grants conversions.

The statement also asserts that Poraz will work to grant the Reform and Conservative movements status equal to that of the Chief Rabbinate.

Such recognition would be a coup for the non-Orthodox streams, whose clergy have no official status in Israel, and a severe blow to the Orthodox establishment, which since the state’s founding has had sole authority over conversions, marriages and divorces.

As it stands now, the Interior Ministry recognizes as citizens only those non-Orthodox Jews who have undergone conversions abroad, not those converted in Israel. For a conversion performed in Israel to be deemed kosher, it must have been conducted in an Orthodox rabbinical court. Otherwise, the convert will not be granted citizenship.

While non-Jews who moved to Israel under the Law of Return are automatically granted citizenship, many others, including foreign workers and volunteers who wish to remain after their visas expire, cannot become citizens if they convert in Israel.

In the 1990s, the Israeli government’s refusal to recognize non-Orthodox conversions created a rift between American Jews, the vast majority of whom are non-Orthodox, and the State of Israel.

Depending on what transpires in the coming months, that rift could reappear and deepen.

Much will depend on an upcoming Supreme Court case involving several non-Orthodox converts who underwent conversion in Israel, a case expected to be heard sometime in the coming year. The petitioners are demanding Israeli citizenship.

In preparation for the case, the Supreme Court asked Poraz to provide an opinion. Previous Interior ministers refused to make them citizens.

During stormy meetings on the subject with the prime minister, attorney general and others, Poraz said he would no longer make citizenship contingent on one’s religion or the Law of Return. Poraz is a member of the staunchly secular Shinui party, which wants a total separation between religion and state.

Poraz told the Jewish Telegraphic Agency that citizenship should be based on an applicant’s contribution to society and identification with the Zionist movement, or on humanitarian grounds.

Were this policy to be enacted, no one who converts in Israel even under an Orthodox framework would automatically become a citizen.

In a rare show of solidarity, the Orthodox, Reform and Conservative streams demanded that Poraz reconsider this position, insisting that an applicant’s Jewishness should have a bearing on citizenship.

As a part of his larger policy, Poraz wanted to disconnect conversion in Israel with citizenship, explained Gilad Kariv, director of public policy for the Reform movement’s Israel religious Action Center. We objected to this on the grounds that Zionism is based on a strong connection between Jewishness and Israeli citizenship. Our feeling is that if a person converts in Israel, he should be recognized as an Israeli citizen.

Evidently convinced that the pluralistic path is the best path, or perhaps simply eager to dethrone the Orthodox, Poraz made a U-turn in recent days.

Rabbi Ehud Bandel, the head of the Masorti/Conservative movement in Israel, prefers to think that Poraz saw the light.

I’m very happy that Poraz realizes that the way to equality between the streams is by recognition of all conversions, and the right of all converts to be granted Israeli citizenship, Bandel said. We opposed Poraz’s attempt to separate citizenship and conversion and tried to communicate to the minister that he was shooting himself in the foot.

Rabbi Uri Regev, director of the World Union for Progressive Judaism, says he holds no illusions.

Poraz told me that if people want to convert, fine, but they should not be converting in order to gain the benefits associated with residency status or citizenship, Rabbi Regev said.

Asked whether Poraz’s dramatic turnaround is heartfelt, or perhaps just a tactic to stick it to the religious establishment, Rabbi Regev replied: At this point I’m interested in the bottom line. The bottom line is that Poraz is reiterating his commitment to pluralism. He supports us on this issue and we certainly support him. We’re glad that he’s made his views known publicly and hope that they will be seriously considered when he presents them to the Supreme Court.

Even if Poraz does indeed tell the Supreme Court that he favors recognition of all Jewish streams, it is no guarantee that such recognition will actually be forthcoming.

Poraz is already being thrown into the public arena, Rabbi Regev said, referring to the shouting matches with Sharon. His hands may be tied from implementing these policies, given the [government’s] partnership with the National Religious Party and Sharon’s own views.

While Sharon tried to steer clear of the religious parties when forming his government, he did court the NRP, to which he is politically indebted. If the NRP jumps ship over the conversion issue, Rabbi Regev can envision another, more optimistic scenario.

If Sharon continues with the peace process and the NRP goes ahead and leaves the coalition, I can see the possibility of Labor reconsidering their position and joining the government, he said.

That, Rabbi Regev said hopefully, could change the whole picture.

© 2000 The Jewish Week, Inc. All rights reserved. Please refer to the legal notice for other important information.

[Mediocrates]

So I finished Faith or Fear last night (Elliot Abrams). Took about 6 hours to read it, it's pretty quick stuff ~ 200 pages. I got it at a big discount on Amazon and including shipping was 7 or 8 bucks. I recommend it if you're going to read Dershowitz (The Vanishing American Jew) ; they make nice bookends to one another and both make good points.

So that's the good news. Now for the bad. There wasn't anything I didn't really know on some level there. We are declining, Christians are not as much of a threat to us as we are to ourselves and by any measure American Jews are generally hostile to religion. As a result they are hostile with that which identifies us and maintains us as Jews. I also understand that even though I am not traditionally Orthodox they are probably our only salvation today, culturally, collectively unless someone can come up with a really good idea, soon.

I'll note and I think this is very important that both of these books were written before 2000 and didn't see the sudden surge in antizionism, antisemitism coming. But Abrams is correct when he says that a big chunk of American Jews are either ambivalent or openly hostile to Israel anyhow. I wonder if Dershowitz and Abrams were writing new editions today whether they would say the same thing about antisemitism...? Maybe maybe not.

At any rate we are looking at probably the most explosive and complicated issue in Judaism today; identity and community. Who is a Jew? Who decides? What are the criteria? Do we need to worry if anyone else respects that? And that's just the surface issues, the mechanics. The deeper and more troublesome issues are what do we do, once we figure our who 'we' is, to stop the decline in Judaism, Jewish identity and in the end, flat out numbers of Jews. When Abrams states that our own abandonment of Judiasm is nearly as bad as the Holocaust he is not throwing out a line. Out numbers, here in America and everywere else in the world except Israel have declined since the 1950's. Increasingly people no longer identify as Jewish, practice as Jews, educate their children as Jews. What is left is a vague feeling that we are culturally Jewish or what you could call secular nonafilliated Judaism. More than half intermarry with less than 10% of the new spouses converting. Best case a paltry fraction of those mixed marriages maintain any Jewish learning for parents or children.

And here is where it gets really messy. Because it was said that one issue to intermarriage was the high and somewhat arbitrary standard of matrilineal descent for children to be Jewish. Which BTW isn't in Torah and is a recent Talmudic convention. Well Reform in the US has even abandoned that because more than half their membership is mixed marriage. And even this - taking the father or the mother has not stopped the slide in Jewish childrens's religious education; in Reform it's probably under 10%. So even removing the barrier to 'who is a Jew' at least locally hasn't stopped the decline. Assimilation seems to be irreversable.

Anyway you can go to either of those books and read the dismal facts. It is depressing, it is a shanda. So what is it that is so unappealing to Jews about Judaism about Jewishness. Why in what is probably the most religious modern nation does even casual observance, casual identity with being Jewish get tossed away like trash? Certainly being Frum is hard but a Frum life never held that wide an appeal ever in the US. In large ways the immigrants who came over here 1880-1910 were coming to escape the Othodox shetl, the Frum life as much as they were running from the Cossacks and the Poles and the Tsarist police. But why is it that there is no middle ground, no area between nothingness and and piety? Do you know who make up the largest group inside American Buddhism? Jews do.

This would be an entirely different conversation if Jews could and wanted to maintain their Judaism or identity in any other way. But all of those are failures in their own success. Social awareness, social Judaism, progressive Liberal thought and activism, political Judaism have all become mainstream Americana. There is nothing in them any longer you can point to and say "ah - that's Jewish, shel z'ha!" So as a result we leave Judaism completely. It is no longer unusal to meet someone named Rosenberg who is completely baffled if you ask them if they are Jewish. It would never enter their mind that they are, halachically or not.

The authors have different approaches to a solution, both incomplete. Dershowitz states the secret is advanced education both for children and parents. And this is a noble goal but as Abrams notes, without vouchers, it is largely unaffordable to send 2 or 3 kids to Day School at thousands of dollars a year each. Abrams says the key is a return to Orthodox and I can deeply and entirely understand this but it is clearly not for everyone, never has been. I doubt there is a single person here, me included who is Shomer Shabbos, who davens three times a day, uses the mikvah and generally leads a Frum life. It's not even about lack of will, in my case, I simply don't want to. I prefer living on the Liberal end of O.U. Orthodox or what you would call Conserva-dox because I truly believe that the goal of Judaism does not include anywhere a drawing away from the world or from life. Fences around the Torah are important, very important, and we will all of us, if we care to live as Jews will always be apart from the goyishe world but we are still in it. The shetl is gone, the ghetto burned down, the Cossacks, oy vey zey raped ze cattle und shtole zuh vimmen, the good old days were horrible. And Orthodox, particularly hard Orthodox, Chassidic, Satmars, etc. haven't fully come to terms with this. They see their isolation as a success, and it is. But we are better than hothouse flowers that can only thrive in a glass box.

So what are the answers and where will they come from?

[Communication]

I forwarded your post to my Jewish studies professor at Cal, so hopefully she will respond with some words of wisdom and then I’ll post it here. She once made the comment to me that the Jewish communities in Berkeley reminded her of the ancient sects in Israel. Most people only hear about the Essenes, the Pharises, the Sarducces, and the Nazarines. But apparently, there were hundreds of them. The three things they had in common were torah, ancestry, and the land, and even that wasn’t enough to hold them together as one nation, having split into Judea and Samaria. For myself, the biggest problem in studying other religions is that there are not enough hours in one lifetime to learn everything about your own heritage, let alone others. But, Judaism never existed in a vacuum, and every culture that ever touched us found its way into our texts. In my eyes, it only becomes a real problem when a person lacks a solid foundation, and thus appreciation for their own heritage. I don’t have a problem if Jews want to become Buhdists or Nihilists or whatever, but I would prefer that they make a serious effort to explore their own heritage first. If it turns out that they find some other system more fulfilling, then I have no problem letting them go. Likewise, I have no problem relaxing the rules for allowing in people who do have an appreciation for our heritage and are willing to help us develop what’s already there. Better them than someone who is “Jewish” by birth but otherwise has no connection to their people. Obtaining vouchers for education is not going to be easy. I suppose by now, you saw the most recent survey that one of the authors in your articles mentioned. My dad sent it to me. Poverty is on the rise amongst the Orthodox population. They closed down the Hebrew Academy where I attended high school. Apparently nobody with the means was interested in funding the school. At the same time, David Geffen donated $200 million to UCLA medical center, a noble cause nonetheless. I could have gotten Geffen’s name on the school gymnasium.

I wish I had a way to be more positive about the future of Diaspora Jewry, especially at a time when there is so much turmoil in Israel. I spend too much time thinking about these issues not to have some hope for the future and I want to offer you some kind of comparison between Yiddish, the language that is suppose to be dead but doesn’t know it, and the Jewish people. Maybe you and I and millions of other concerned Jews will just continue worrying about this problem and our children will grow up equally worried, and this, they will pass down to future generations of “vanishing Jews.” Perhaps this is why so many Jews my age say that they ideally want to marry someone Jewish, but for now they are going to focus on other more enjoyable pursuits.


That's all I have time for now.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Although I am hardly Orthodox in practice (in progress of correction :) ), I am Orthodox in thought. I still strongly believe in Our Customs and Traditions. I consider myself a conservative-type person and conservative (not the sect) in all of my Jewish/Israel related thoughts.

In this case, I don't see a reason in which women shouldn't go to the Kotel. I don't see a problem with women studying Torah. I do have a problem with women getting called up as olim. I am just as against women wearing Tefillin and Tallisim as I am against a Palestinain state. When you have a women wearing either of the two, she is undoubtedly - whether conciously or unconciously - a feminazi. A hardcore, hardlining feminist. The lowest of the low.

This isn't a problem and should not be an issue. The issue should be one or both of the following:

1. The Wakf and other Arab presences such as the Al-Aksa Mosque on our holiest site (let alone Mosques and Churches in general)(Israel is holy to Jews as Mecca is holy to Muslims. Because only Muslims are allowed in Mecca, the same should apply for Our Holy Land.) would be removed and thouroughly destroyed.

2. The Cancer(s) is(are) removed from Israel. All cancer(s) will be removed in full, that way it won't regrow. PS. not including the loyal Muslim apostates, the Druze. The Greek Orthodox priests and leaders, and Muslim Imams and whatever else as well as their leaders should all be given a war crimes trial. When convicted, castrated, fed their ball, and hung and let rott in the desert sun.

[Communication]

It's going to be a while before my teacher can respond to your comments. She's home in Jerusalem for the summer, but she's also busy with her child and work. So I'm going to ramble instead.

Have you read any A.B. Yehoshua? He would'nt care too much for me because he's very crtical of cultural Jews who look to Israel for identity but live elsewhere. He believes that Diaspora Jews live a nuerotic existence, whereas Jewish values embrace every aspect of life in Israel. At the same time, he admits that even Israeli Jews are too pre-occupied with the borders of identity between Jew and non-Jew, and are not concerned enough with the nature of that identity. Also, there is the general erosion or perhaps malaise is a better word of society because of the ongoing conflict.

Do Israelis need our money, our headcount? No, at this point, I think they need our energy more than anything else. Even the best Israeli authors are tired of writing about the conflict. And perhaps, secular or cultural Jews need the Israeli shetl too, like Mexican-Americans need Mexico and Italian-Americans need Italy. The orthodox in the American shetl will be fine despite the growing poverty in the community. They don't find assimilation attractive. Israel is always there for them but they have their methods for building community within communities. The cultural Jews, like myself, are the ones with few opportunities to build community, and it's very hard to live as a Jew without community. It can lead to a schizophrenic-like existence, but that's the case for all ethnic groups in the United States. The US is a blending system, an experiment- it's "free-jazz" or "jazz-fusion," not the straight-ahead old school variety. You need both. Right now, both Israel and the Diaspora are very unstable and we keep looking over there and they keep looking over here. What a mess!

[Communication]

One last comment and then I'll stop my rambling. There is this Jewish guy from another board who I have asked a couple of time to come on this board and discuss these types of issues with us. But each time he refuses, offering up rather banal excuses, because he would rather battle it out with the anti-semites. I feel like the orthodox people who run around on campus pleading with the secular Jews to just show up once at the Chabbad house for Shabbat. That aversion that you mentioned is very strong in the US. It's as though by asking him to discuss these issues with other Jews, I'm trying to drag him back into the shetl. It's so depressing.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Theres plenty of anti-Semites here - and most of them are Jewish.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Communication

Have you read any A.B. Yehoshua? He would'nt care too much for me because he's very crtical of cultural Jews who look to Israel for identity but live elsewhere. He believes that Diaspora Jews live a nuerotic existence, whereas Jewish values embrace every aspect of life in Israel.


A.B. Yehoshua is an arrogant snob, whose literary talents are much overrated. Don't mind what he says.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
In this case, I don't see a reason in which women shouldn't go to the Kotel. I don't see a problem with women studying Torah. I do have a problem with women getting called up as olim. I am just as against women wearing Tefillin and Tallisim as I am against a Palestinain state. When you have a women wearing either of the two, she is undoubtedly - whether conciously or unconciously - a feminazi. A hardcore, hardlining feminist. The lowest of the low.


I'm wondering what role you do see for women then and whether you ascribe to all of the other hardline Orthodox rules. My question really is are you opposed to this on religious grounds or some other? There is a wide spectrum of beliefs vis a vis women's rights in Orthdox itself. I don't have any time to go into it right now but you might want to look at some of the essays on edah.org.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I'm wondering what role you do see for women then and whether you ascribe to all of the other hardline Orthodox rules. My question really is are you opposed to this on religious grounds or some other? There is a wide spectrum of beliefs vis a vis women's rights in Orthdox itself. I don't have any time to go into it right now but you might want to look at some of the essays on edah.org.

I see women in the role they are in now. Equal to men. The only thing I don't see women in is altering anciet traditions which have helped hold us together up until this day. Not because women are less (women are greater than men in my opinion, and the Orthodox opinion) but because it's how it's been done and how it should continue to be done. If for the past 3000+ years women had been being called to the Torah and wearing Tefillin (or if the Torah had said for them to) I would have no objections whatsoever. Furthermore, if it had been the reverse where only women were called up and not men, I would have no objections. I wouldn't be trying to pry my way in.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I see women in the role they are in now. Equal to men. The only thing I don't see women in is altering anciet traditions which have helped hold us together up until this day. Not because women are less (women are greater than men in my opinion, and the Orthodox opinion) but because it's how it's been done and how it should continue to be done. If for the past 3000+ years women had been being called to the Torah and wearing Tefillin (or if the Torah had said for them to) I would have no objections whatsoever. Furthermore, if it had been the reverse where only women were called up and not men, I would have no objections. I wouldn't be trying to pry my way in.

There was a recent article in the Jerusalem Post written by a very well-respected Israeli Orthodox rabbi who believes the directive against women chanting the Torah was done so as to not embarrass a man who could not chant Torah. He feels the directive is no longer valid today. I regret that I did not keep the article so I can post the link or the article. It was very enlightening and relevant to this discussion thread.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelnn.com/print.php3?what=news&id=46761

Good News !!!!


Helping The Chained Women
L'Maan B'nos Yisrael International (LBYI), an organization dedicated to helping Agunot and their children, has announced a new service to the Jewish community. The organization seeks to ease the difficulties of "chained women" (Agunot), whose estranged husbands are withholding from them a Jewish divorce and thus causing them to be unable to marry.

LBYI has recently arranged for those women who have received a "ptur" - proof of receipt of a Jewish divorce - to register the document on the computers of the Rabbinical Courts of the State of Israel. The arrangement covers women all around the world, and "could prove to be invaluable," the organization states, "in case of loss or damage of the document in the future. It will serve as an undisputed record that your [divorce] has been accepted by Israel, and will benefit your children and grandchildren forever by serving as proof of their legitimate status in the Jewish community."

To facilitate the process, Rabbi Eliyahu Ben-Dahan, director of Israel's Rabbinical Courts, is currently in New York. LBYI will also be sponsoring an evening dedicated to "Agunot and their Abandoned Children: The Responsibility of Every Jew" in Kew Gardens Hills, NY, this coming Tuesday. Speakers will include Rabbi Ben-Dahan and LBYI founder and president Marilyn Mattie Klein. For information on the above gathering and on how to participate in the above new arrangement, please see "www.lbyi.org".