Israeli hypocracy on human rights

[Sacha]

I am an Australian citizen whom is neither Jew nor Arab but have a strong interest in world events. As i have monitored the growing conflict in Israel it has become clear and apparent that the worst attrocities and human rights violations are being perpetrated by the israel state.

Suicide bombings that target civilians are indeed terrible and un-humane, but Israel has murdered 4 times as many innocent civilians by launching missiles into populated areas (refugee camps for gods sake), not allowing medical vehicles through and now firing on medical vehicles!!??? All because they are too weak willed and un-humane to send special ops troops into get hamas members out (like any dignified military would do). Accepting women and children as collateral damage is equal if not worse then targeting women and children in suicide bomb attacks.

Now i have been on many forums in the last few months trying to have intellectual debates about Israel's actions but the only retorts i get to these statements are brainless 'they started it, they target innocents, they dont want peace' type comments. What i am asking any supporter of Israel's actions is how can you morally justify that Israel's murderous tactics are any better than the Palastinians. My Jewish friends here in Australia Ive grown up with are appaled with what Israel is doing at the moment, They have at least enough intellectual independance to realise that no belief system or race makes you any more benevolent for murdering and repressing other people that think differantly from you.

So please, I am seeking an articulate point of view that will change my perception of Israel as a racist state responcible for some of the worst humane rights violations of the last few years.

[NewsGuy]

"As i have monitored the growing conflict in Israel it has become clear and apparent that the worst attrocities and human rights violations are being perpetrated by the israel state."

I guess that this is as good a place to start as any. You say "worst attrocities"? I have not seen any Israeli soldier intentionally target Palestinian civilians. On the contrary, the IDF has made tremendous efforts to avoid causing Palestinian civilian casualties. True, Palestinians civilians have been killed by stray fireor by weapons malfunction, or even by self-defense against Palestinian terrorists whose use their own population as human shields to fire at Israeli sodiers. This is how the Palestinian misery is directly caused by their own terrorism and they have no one but themselves to blame.

On the other hand, what to me (and to most civilized people) are actual "attrocities" are Arab mass murderers who specifically target Israeli children in pizza stores, in shopping malls and waiting at bus stops to go to school. The Arab mass murderers intentionally try to murder as many innocent Israeli citizens as possible.

Yet, you and others who are apparently living under some delusion that there is a moral equivalency between the Israeli victims of Arab mass murder and the Arab terrorists who are perpertrating these attrocities, are greatly mistaken.

And even with your misguided moral equivalency, you never open your mouth to criticize the Palestinians when they mass murder Israelis, nor when they openly declare that they want to ethnically cleanse all of Israel from Jews. I've already seen on this board how you try to excuse Arab terrorism against innocent Israelis.

And since you declare youreslf to be a humanist, so terribly concerned with human rights, what did you have to say about that Palestinian mass murderer who bombed a crowd of Jews praying in a synogogue in Jerusalem? What did you say about the 2 babies who were deliberately murdered at that site, or the family of 7 who died in that same bombing?

The only thing I saw you actually complaining about was the incredible "nerve" of the IDF to try to kill a Hamas terrorist with rivers of Israeli blood on his hands, and killing his family by mistake. That, apparently concerned you very much and this was the incident that you viewed as some kind of so-called "attrocity."





"Suicide bombings that target civilians are indeed terrible and un-humane, but Israel has murdered 4 times as many innocent civilians by launching missiles into populated areas (refugee camps for gods sake)"

Wow. I haven't heard such Arab-style disinformation in a while.

First of all, the "refugee camps" you are describing are thriving cities, resembling typical urban centers. They are not a bunch of tents and barefoot refugees like we see in Afghanistan.

In fact, these "refugee camps" are being used to house factories that manufacture missiles and explosives used by Palestinians to shoot into Israeli population centers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews.

You can moan about it as much as you'd like, but bomb factories are fair targets for IDF military action.

Secondly, you of course fail to mention that the IDF called on all Palestinian civilians in those cities to leave so they would not be hurt. When diod you ever see an Arab try to evacuate Israeli citizens so they would not get hurt? On the contrary, Israeli citizens are the target always, and the more the better.






"not allowing medical vehicles through and now firing on medical vehicles!!??? All because they are too weak willed and un-humane to send special ops troops into get hamas members out (like any dignified military would do)."

Well, it is unfortunate that the Palestinians have decided to use those same ambulances to transport terrorists into Israel, like the female bomber who was smuggled into Israel a few weeks ago in one of those ambulances you're complaining about. She severely injured more than 150 innocent Israelis in an outdoor shopping mall in Jerusalem. Please don't expect me to have sympathy for stopping ambulances, since they are being used as terrorist smuggling vehicles. if the Arabs themselves cared at all about their own people's welfare, they would have never used those ambulances to deliver suicide bombers to Israel.





"Accepting women and children as collateral damage is equal if not worse then targeting women and children in suicide bomb attacks."

Nonesense. There is a HUGE difference between the IDF using extreme precaution to safeguard the Palestinian population, as opposed ot Arab mass murderers who target innocent Israelis. You are fooling yourself to think otherwise.





"So please, I am seeking an articulate point of view that will change my perception of Israel as a racist state"

Just to clarify, I have no interest in changing anyone's perception. That's not my role.

I have noticed that most people who oppose Israel have made up their minds a long time ago and feel very comfortable in their views.

But if you want to see someone from your own land down under who woke up to reality, you can see this old page of this forum:

http://www.israelforum.com/opinions/opinion-01-09-30.shtml

[victot]

hi sacha...

you seem genuine in your question, and i'll try giving a shot to answering your question.

ok, first off in answering your question, i'll assume it is understood that since the beginning of the whole intifada, and the events just letting up to it, all things are considered equal. what i mean is, i know the creation of the jewish state in israel back in 1948 hurt a lot of palestinians, who were just living their for close to 2 thousand years, and who aren't presonally moved or affected by the importance of israel to the jewish religion and jewish people, or the struggles of the jewish people have endured over the ages, and the need for the jewish people to have a homeland of their own to defend themselves to a world which has kicked their a$$ for 2000 years...

so, leaving aside israel's inception for now, let's pretend your a jew living in israel.
in israel not counting gaza or the west bank, there are about 5 million jews, and 1.5 million arabs.
in gaza and the west bank, there are about 3.25 million arabs.
surrounding israel, there are like, a billion arabs. (see http://www.mideastweb.org/geogpop.htm, or a billion other sites on any search engine to see a more accurate number of how many arabs and other peoples living in countries which are surrounding israel) These billion or so arabs and other peoples surrounding israel want to KILL ISRAEL. LOOK ON A SEARCH ENGINE TO SEE WHAT POLLS IN THESE COUNTRIES REVEAL ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK OF ISRAEL. FLY TO EGYPT, SYRIA, IRAN... AND OF COURSE GAZA/WEST BANK AND TALK TO PEOPLE ON THE STREET ABOUT WHAT THEY THINK OF ISRAEL... NO JOKE/EXAGERATION, A LOT OF THEM WANNA THROW THE JEWS IN ISRAEL INTO THE SEA. israel represents about one 800th of the land in the middle east.
Now i give this to show how an israeli is feeling... THE FRIKKING COUNTRY IS IN DANGER. THIS IS NOT A JOKE. HOW RESTRAINED WOULD TOO MANY COUNTRIES BE WHEN THEY'RE IN THIS KINDA DANGER? I BET YOU A BILLION DOLLARS, NOT TOO MANY COUNTRIES WOULD BE AS RESTRAINED AS ISRAEL.
when you are sitting in your comfortable chair in australia, and you see on the television that the israeli army has killed 12 palestinians; 2 children and 10 militants who organize others to strap bombs to their bodies and go into a pizzeria to kill israeli teenagers, please try to remember that the israeli army is sincerely regretful that the children have been killed...
but given the situation that these militants aren't part of a seperated army from the civilians... they are in the refugee camps, surrounded by these children, woman, old people...
the fact that these militants live in a palestinian society which doesnt condone the terrorist attacks perpetrated by these miltants means that the militans are free to attack israeli civilians, and then hide behind the "innocent" civilians.

it is a frikking strategy. their society is letting those who would commit violent acts against israeli citizens live amongst them, and those who commit violent acts against israeli citizitens are living amongst "innocent bystanders" so that people like you who don't understand the situation sit on your comfortable chair in australia and see the israeli army went into a refugee camp and accidently killed some "innocent bystanders" along with their true target of KILLING THE TERRORISTS.

trust me, israel has deployed every kind of special troop their is. you have NOOO idea if you think israel doesn't use advanced and diligent methods to keep the palestinian civilian death toll down.

i also think it is unfair of you to compare the ratio of palestinian dead to the ration of israelis dead, for a couple of reasons:

1)a lot of the palestinians who died put themselves square in the position which was violent. like, they went to a scenario in which they are either shooting at the israeli soldiers, or at a spot which they know it is very likely that there will be others shooting... they went to a spot which they knew that a gunbattle was gonna happen.
i think those who personnally play with fire and then get burnt should not be given the same sympathy as someone who went to a pizzeria and then got blown up.
yes, i think one should reflect with sadness when someone dies... that people are dying... but don't fault the israeli army just because they are stronger. if they are being attacked, they must respond.
the palestinians use human shields tactics for pr, and this obvious tactic shouldnt work on unbiased people who are searching for truth.
the palestinians who die like an israeli who died while going to a pizzeria... those palestinians who were in their house and who got hit by a stray bullet... im deeply sad for them and i wish the situation was differant. these deaths are a tradgedy that very few israelis are are happy about.

2)the unequal ratio of deaths is unfair to compare, because the palestinian people aren't in danger like israel is. there is way more than the ratio of 4-1 of arab and other countries surrounding israel who might very well attack israel in war...
the ratio is closer to 100 arabs and other peoples for every jew in the middle east.
israel must stay strong to defend themselves in the harsh middle east world.
palestine faces no such danger. there are no countries surrounding them which want to kill them... on the contrary, they have support of all the other countries in the middle east. unconditional support. if you read editorials by the other countries, palestine can do no wrong, in ANY circumstance. every violent action palestinians do, is in self defnce, every violent action israel deos they are committing ethnic cleansing.



and the funny thing is...
right before the intifada began, israel was offering palestine historic concessions to land in israel.. sovreignty and land... enough land and space so that the palestinians could thrive as a people...
but the intifada is how the palestinians respnded.
imagine what would have happeneed if israel was in the middle of doing something which was bad to the palestinians?

anyway sacha, i hope i didnt offend you anywhere...
feel free to write back on any of the points...

to conclude, ill post right after this some selected editorials i found on yahoo news throughout the intifada, which i dont think are unfair or propoganda... they give the israeli point of view on this violence.

[victot]

the fact that these militants live in a palestinian society which doesnt condone the terrorist attacks perpetrated by these miltants means that the militans are free to attack israeli civilians, and then hide behind the "innocent" civilians.

i meant condemn, heh


anywho, here are the editroials:


False moral equivalency
By Seth Mandell

(June 29) - My 13-year-old son, Koby Mandell, and his friend Yosef Ish-Ran were brutally murdered, bludgeoned to death with bowling ball-sized rocks six weeks ago. The perpetrators, not yet apprehended, are assumed to be Palestinians who happened upon my son and his friend - vulnerable, easy targets - as they were hiking in a canyon about a kilometer from our home.
Because we considered the murder a personal family tragedy we asked the media to respect our privacy during the shiva. Not only did I not speak to reporters, I read no papers, listened to no television or radio. When I did finally begin to read the coverage, I was dismayed to find that many American papers juxtaposed pictures of Koby and his friend Yosef with pictures of a Palestinian infant from Gaza who had been badly injured when her home was hit by an Israeli rocket.
Discerning readers and media observers should be aware that the two tragedies are not morally equivalent. In almost every instance of noncombatants killed by the Israeli army, the injury resulted from an Israeli defensive reaction to an attack by trained Palestinian fighters using the victim's civilian home for cover. The baby's injury was a mistake for which Prime Minister Ariel Sharon expressed regret.
Koby and Yosef, on the other hand, were killed in cold blood by terrorists who have been encouraged to kill as brutally as possible.
What happened to Koby and Yosef was a hate crime. It could have happened anywhere in Israel. The frenzied hatred it expressed was nurtured and cultivated by the Palestinian Authority's official media and educational system.
Not one Palestinian leader or civilian wrote, called, or expressed any kind of regret.
While it is true that Palestinian boys my son's age are sometimes shot by Israeli defense forces, they are hurt by soldiers responding to rock throwing or other attacks so intense that the soldiers feel that their lives are threatened.
Don't think rocks can kill? Ask Yehuda, the five-month-old baby whose head was smashed in by a rock during the drive home from his grandparents house.
Don't think a mob of Palestinians is life threatening? Ask the two reserve soldiers beaten to death during the lynching in Ramallah a few months ago.
A glaring example of false moral equivalency. Thomas Friedman in his New York Times column on June 19 writes: "What Israeli settlers and Palestinian suicide bombers have in common is that they are each pushing for the maximum use of force against the other side."
To equate the two is to create moral mush. The rhetoric and actions of the suicide bombers and the Palestinian leadership is a "push" for wholesale and indiscriminate slaughter of Israeli Jews wherever and whenever they are to be found. The so-called settlers "push" is for defensive action against armed militants who threaten the roads, the homes, and the lives of many Israelis, both inside and outside of the territories.
There are no settlers calling on Jews to kill Palestinians wherever they find them, as did a clergyman on Palestinian national television recently.
Israeli TV does not run advertisements urging children to martyr themselves for the Palestinian cause, as does the official Palestinian Authority television station. While settlers and the rest of the Israeli population do allow their children to serve in the army to defend the citizens of their country, they do not strap explosives to their sons' bodies and send them into crowds of high schoolers to kill and maim.
Let's be clear: Building a home on disputed territory is not the moral equivalent of stoning young people to death. In an effort to maintain a balance, journalists sometimes erroneously equate the two, thus avoiding the discomfort that comes from assigning clear condemnation and culpability. Yet it is the job of all civilized countries - and people - to judge clearly and critically the murderers and terrorists who wreak havoc on our lives and in our societies.
(The writer is a rabbi who lives in Tekoa.)



A letter to Palestinian readers
By David Kimche

(June 4) - The Jerusalem Post is widely read by educated Palestinians. It is to those readers that this article is primarily addressed: Contrary to the impression that you might gain by seeing the images on television of the ugly riots in Jaffa on Saturday, the majority of Israelis found the behavior of the rioters reprehensible, and cannot understand the lax manner in which the police handled the situation.
Contrary to what you may be thinking, most Israelis want to live in peace with you, provided that their security is assured.
Similarly, I am convinced that the majority of Palestinians would like nothing better than to see an end to the killing and would like to live in peace with Israel, provided that their status of being a people under occupation is changed.
I know that for you, the occupation is something you are not prepared to tolerate any longer, and construction activities in the settlements is the concrete expression of that continued occupation.
Even the disingenuous formula proposed by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres - of no building outside the existing built-up perimeters - is unacceptable to you. Yet, you must understand that we also have our red lines that no Israeli is prepared to cross. As unacceptable as the settlements are to you, the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees into Israel is unacceptable to us.
Despite these seeming similarities, there is, of course, no symmetry in our respective situations.
We, as you so often state, are the occupiers and you are the occupied. We have an arsenal of planes, tanks and guns at our disposal, while you are reduced to drive-by killers and to suicide bombers who target innocent youngsters out for an evening of fun at a discotheque.
The madness of the Friday night slayings should act as the trigger that will jolt us all back to our senses. For you educated Palestinians, it should demonstrate the danger of continuing to allow such acts of folly. You must realize that the losers from such foul deeds, apart from the victims and their families, must be you yourselves.
Can you forget the bus bombings that robbed Peres of an assured victory at the polls and gave you - and us - Binyamin Netanyahu in his stead? Do you have any doubt that Ariel Sharon sits in the Prime Minister's Office primarily thanks to your acts of violence?
The simple truth is that with every bomb targeting innocent civilians the Israeli peace camp is weakened and the voices calling for revenge are strengthened. Every such act deprives you of the moral high ground you are so desperately trying to hold out there in the world.
All your gains in public relations, in propaganda, in the international media, are nullified by the pictures of the dead teenagers. You answer that you, too, have suffered terrible losses in this intifada, and that, of course, is true. The suffering of a bereaved parent is the same, whether Israeli or Palestinian. Yet the one big difference is that the violence was started by you, and not by us, and it is now up to you to call a halt to it, before it is too late and before our two peoples slide into an all-out blood-letting.
I argued these points recently with a Palestinian friend whom I met in Jerusalem. He said that the Palestinian side is too weak to take the initiative of curbing Hamas, the Islamic Jihad, as well as Tanzim and Force 17, without giving them something tangible such as a promise of a renewal of negotiations and an end to construction in the settlements. "Something has to be gained from all the deaths we suffered," he declared.
That is exactly the point. Nothing will be gained, except more deaths and greater suffering. Continued violence will not gain anything. On the contrary. Every suicide bombing unites the people of Israel more against you, creates a greater determination to fight you, and distances you from your goal of obtaining international support.
On the other hand, an immediate end of the violence will, indeed, open the door to a resumption of negotiations, and will put pressure on our government to implement the Mitchell Report's demand for an end to settlement construction activity, a demand supported by a majority of the people.
The Friday night bombing was a terrible act, as bad as the massacre committed by Baruch Goldstein in a Hebron mosque in 1994. It is now up to you to put a stop to this bloody spiral of kill and be killed, it is up to you to demand from your leader to give clear instructions to end the violence, so that sanity can once more prevail and disaster be averted.
Time is running out. We are on the brink of an abyss. Let us hope you will act before it is too late.

[victot]

What do they expect from Israel?
By Evelyn Gordon

(February 20) - If I could pose one question to a group of senior American and European government officials, it would be the following: Is there any action at all that you would deem legitimate for Israel to take to defend its population against Palestinian attacks - and if so, what?
The answer to the first half of the question would probably be yes, because in principle, both America and Europe agree that countries have the right to defend their citizens. But the second half would be a poser - because both the Europeans and the Americans have proven over the last four months that when it comes to Israel, they oppose translating this principle into practice.
During this period, Israel has tried a wide variety of tactics in response to the war of attrition that has been the Palestinians' answer to unprecedented Israeli concessions at the negotiating table. Yet every one of these tactics has been unequivocally denounced by the US and the European Union.
Initially, Prime Minister Ehud Barak opted for the simplest tactic of all: telling soldiers to just shoot back when fired upon. But since Palestinian gunmen made a practice of stationing themselves in the midst of crowds of civilians, and since even the most sophisticated weapons are rarely perfectly aimed in the heat of battle, this tactic resulted in the deaths of many civilians as well as gunmen. The result was universal excoriation of Israeli brutality, and the implicit message that it would be preferable for IDF soldiers to simply let themselves be used for target practice.
Barak then decided to try targeting property rather than people. In response to Palestinian attacks, he began ordering the IDF to destroy buildings belonging to the organizations responsible, after first warning the people inside to leave and giving them several hours to do so. Highly sophisticated weapons were used to ensure, as far as possible, that no innocent bystanders were hurt. And the result? Israel was again universally condemned, this time for having used heavy weaponry such as combat helicopters - even though the main purpose of this hi-tech weaponry was to prevent civilian casualties.
Israel has also made extensive use of economic pressure. This has included barring Palestinians from working in Israel, in order to keep potential terrorists out, and not transferring money to the Palestinian Authority, to deprive it of cash with which to buy weapons to use against Israel (according to IDF intelligence, the PA has been engaged in massive arms smuggling for the past several months).
Keeping enemy aliens out and freezing enemy assets are both completely standard wartime measures, even though they undoubtedly hurt the innocent as well as the guilty. Nevertheless, Israel has been universally assailed for taking these actions.
Then, finally, Barak came up with one tactic that hurts only the guilty: the targeted killing of known terrorists. These killings have produced almost no civilian casualties, because the IDF can choose the time and place of the attack, and it tries to choose times and places when no innocents are nearby.
This usually necessitates picking a time when the terrorist is not actually engaged in military activity. In theory, there is nothing wrong with this: The rules of warfare permit taking an enemy by surprise; they do not state that you can open fire only when the enemy is actually shooting at you. But again, the normal rules apparently do not apply to Israel: Rather than applauding a tactic that prevents civilian casualties, both America and Europe have objected vociferously to the targeted killings, with the European Union even terming them "executions without trial" and declaring them a violation of international law.
But if all of the above tactics are completely unacceptable, just what tactics would America and Europe consider legitimate - other than for Israel to let its citizens be sitting ducks, without lifting a finger to protect them?
If America and Europe want to exert an influence on Israel's actions, they owe the government a straightforward answer to this question. There has never been an Israeli government that would not prefer to use tactics acceptable to the West, if such tactics exist.
But the evidence to date seems to indicate that there are no such tactics - that in practice, Europe and America are unwilling for Israel to take any measures in its own defense. And if this is the case, then the government has no choice but to simply ignore world opinion and do what it thinks best. For no Israeli government - and indeed, no self-respecting government in any country - could agree to sit by and do nothing while its citizens are subjected to daily shooting attacks.


Israel's Restraint


By David Ivry
Friday, October 27, 2000; Page A35
The current wave of violence in the Middle East has left more than 100 Palestinians dead, while the number of Israeli fatalities has been relatively small. This uneven casualty ratio has raised questions by some as to whether the Israeli forces are too eager to pull their triggers in response to Palestinian violence. The answer to such concerns is clear: Israel has shown the greatest restraint possible in the face of continued violent provocations, and Israel's forces have made a maximum effort to avoid Palestinian fatalities.
Israel has no interest in the continuation of violence, and our tactical response has been to avoid actions that could lead to escalation. Every Israeli soldier on the ground receives strict orders as to the rules of engagement, which state clearly when it is permissible to use live fire. An Israeli soldier may respond only when shot at first or in a life-threatening situation. In either case his response must be directed at the source of the fire.
On Oct. 12, the day the two Israeli soldiers were brutally lynched in Ramallah, Israel responded by sending helicopters into action in Ramallah and Gaza. Not only were our pilots under strict instructions to surgically strike designated points but Israel also warned the Palestinians to evacuate the specified targets. It was no accident that there were no Palestinian fatalities in the Israeli counterstrike.
Israel's operational procedures for dealing with violent crowds involve the use of teargas and rubber bullets. Palestinians are propagating the fallacy that Israeli troops meet street demonstrators with live fire. Unfortunately, we have witnessed many incidents in which armed Palestinians have opened fire on Israelis from street demonstrations--using their fellow Palestinians as human shields. The Palestinian leadership has gone as far as closing the schools and busing children to points of friction, knowingly putting youngsters in harm's way. International treaties clearly condemn the enlisting of children to participate in hostilities. The international community should speak out against this reprehensible exploitation of children for political purposes.
Today's violence is quite different from that of the intifada in the 1980s. Israel then controlled the entire West Bank and Gaza Strip, and Israeli soldiers were stationed inside Palestinian cities. Today, as a result of the Olso accords, 40 percent of the territories, including all the population centers, are under Palestinian control with more than 95 percent of Palestinians living directly under the rule of the Palestinian Authority. Our forces sit outside the population centers at points agreed to in the Israeli-Palestinian interim agreements. For violent incidents to erupt, Palestinians must seek out those forces or Israeli civilian targets.
During the intifada, our forces had to deal primarily with violent demonstrations. Currently, Israeli soldiers face armed Palestinian forces, either the official Palestinian security or the Tanzim militia (which, according to the interim agreements, should not have weapons at all). Palestinian gunmen have opened fire on Israelis in hundreds of incidents. Pictures of Palestinian boys with slingshots do not accurately reflect this new reality on the ground.
The ultimate irony of the current situation is that Prime Minister Ehud Barak has shown unprecedented flexibility in the peace process. The Palestinians, rather than opting to negotiate, chose to revert to violence. It was the Palestinian side that reneged on the cease-fire brokered by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright in Paris, and it was the Palestinian side that failed to implement the deal brokered by President Clinton at Sharm el-Sheikh. Israel did not want, seek or encourage this round of fighting. The questions must be asked: Which side has acted to contain and to end the violence, and which side has not ?
The truth about the ratio of Palestinian to Israeli deaths is that Israelis have been actively seeking to limit fatal casualties in this conflict while, unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the Palestinian side. As retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark wrote recently: "for the Palestinians, every casualty, even their own, can be a strategic gain." As long as the Palestinian leadership acts on the assumption that there is a net political advantage in bloodshed, surely they, and those in the Arab world who encourage this violent strategy, should be held accountable for the appalling and unnecessary loss of life over the past four weeks.
The writer is Israel's ambassador to the United States. He has served as commander of the Israeli air force and deputy chief of the general staff.

[Negev]

victot, you're killing the thread with mountains and mountains of this cut and paste stuff. why not just say your point in a few sentences so people can stand a chance to read it and not glaze over your messages like is happening now.

[victot]

:o(

[L@mplighterM]

I'll tell u Sacha being a citizen of any country don't mean much these days. What I mean is you could be an Australian Islamic Fundamendalist for all I know.

I don't see how anyone can blame the citizens of Israel for wanting to live in peace. Sorry it dosen't take two to tango these days that's philosophy of the old days.

Whether you're a Jew, Gentile, ect is moot. In this particular situation it's so obvious that the Palestinians are terrorists and the Jews are trying to stop their evil attacks.

Perhaps you can't tell the difference between intentionally killing women, children and others and accidentially injuring or causing death to someone.

I'm happy that I have the ability to tell the difference.

[alm0nd]

Do you really believe that all the "atrocities" done by the IDF are accidental ?!

We all saw the destruction made by the tanks to the streets and buildings and even trees (or were those an evil terrorist trees!). And I won't go near all the human beans that were killed, arrested, hungered or expelled from there homes.

Killing a civilian old man in the street looking for water is an accident... but how can you kill a kid throwing rocks on a A-10 tank and injur his younger brother by accident ! (unless you're blind or you consider those school boys a life threatening terrorists).

Really.... I want you to answer me... Do you really believe that all the killing and destruction made by the Israeli army is "accidental"? or do you think that ALL this killing and destruction is justified to put an end to terrorism?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by alm0nd
Do you really believe that all the "atrocities" done by the IDF are accidental ?!

We all saw the destruction made by the tanks to the streets and buildings and even trees (or were those an evil terrorist trees!). And I won't go near all the human beans that were killed, arrested, hungered or expelled from there homes.

Killing a civilian old man in the street looking for water is an accident... but how can you kill a kid throwing rocks on a A-10 tank and injur his younger brother by accident ! (unless you're blind or you consider those school boys a life threatening terrorists).

Really.... I want you to answer me... Do you really believe that all the killing and destruction made by the Israeli army is "accidental"? or do you think that ALL this killing and destruction is justified to put an end to terrorism?

Well I do believe that the homicide bombers just accidentally strapped on the wrong belt and when they went to tighten it in a crowd it exploded spilling blood of people that deserved to die. I do believe the $ 25.000.00 (that averages about an income for 25-30 years in that part of the world) that t he families get is just money that?s issued by accident. I also believe they were on the way to Arafat?s compound to eliminate him when their belts accidentally detonated.

When Arafat unleashed the dogs of war he opened up the gates to hell. There?s going to be collateral damage and people are going to die. Right or wrong that?s the way war works. I?m certain that the IDF are doing their best to protect innocent civilians and they will be subjected to prosecution if (I don?t believe that for a moment) there?s indication that they acted against Sharon?s instructions.

Are you asking me if it?s justified? I would rather see a potent ional supporter of Islamic Fundamentalism die than an innocent Jew. Of course what I would want most is to have the Palestinian Leadership learn the ways of peace and become good neighbors. That however seems like an impossible dream because of the evil that exists in their society.

Without sarcasm I hope you like the latter parts of my answer.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by alm0nd
Killing a civilian old man in the street looking for water is an accident... but how can you kill a kid throwing rocks on a A-10 tank and injur his younger brother by accident ! (unless you're blind or you consider those school boys a life threatening terrorists).

Really.... I want you to answer me... Do you really believe that all the killing and destruction made by the Israeli army is "accidental"? or do you think that ALL this killing and destruction is justified to put an end to terrorism?

Hello alm0nd. Welcome.

I'll start by answering your second question first: Yes, I do believe that all the killing and destruction is justified. And, more than justified, it is absolutely necessary to save the lives of many innocent Israelis, as well as the lives of innocent Palestinians, in the long run.

As you probably know, the Palestinians will most likely receive a second state. Four Israeli prime ministers including Rabin, Peres, Barak and Sharon have all agreed to this concept. But the Palestinians have a leadership made up of mass murderers who have decided not to negotiate for peace, but instead to slaughter innocent Israelis in the streets of Israel. So much so that it became unbearable for ther Israelis, as it would have been for any country, to keep on burying dozens of its citizens each day.

And so it became necessary to take serious measures against those who financed, planned, recruited and trained the terrorists. It is a problem however, that the terrorists hide like cowards (and worse) among the Palestinians population, using Palestinians women and children as human shields. So long as these terrorists are allowed to stay alive, they will kill more and more, and bring enormous misery to their own Palestinian people. So, the fact is that if the Arab leaders will not eliminate these terrorists, then the Israelis will have to do so. And so it was.

For all these reasons, yes, it was necessary for the Israelis to take extremely strong action against the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure, even if it happens to be located inside Palestinian residential neighborhoods. And in fact, several bomb factories, weapons, suicide and bomber belts were located inside the Palestinian towns, hospitals, schools, mosques and houses.

Israel cannot keep on burying its citizens without doing anything about it, just because the terrorists have chosen to hide their terrorism centers in Palestinian towns. There is no choice but to fight the Palestinian terrorists where they are located, because you certainly cannot fight them where they are NOT located, right?

* * *

And this brings me to your second question about the "innocent" Palestinians" who were killed and their towns damaged by the military operation against terrorism.

First, I should really ask you what do you honestly think that the Palestinian residents of these towns expected to happen to them, knowing that the enormous daily death and destruction of innocent Israeli civilians was done by terrorists living in their neighborhoods, using weapons stored next door to them?

As you know very well, for many years now, the Hamas, Hizbullah and Tanzim terrorists regularly marched through the streets of those exact towns that were damaged badly in this war on terrorism. These terrorists displayed guns, kalachnikovs, fire-bombs and dynamite strapped to their bodies and paraded down the streets in broad daylight shouting "Itbach alYa'ud" (Butcher the Jews). So what kind of outcome could this have possibly brought on the Palestinian centers of terrorism?

I am sorry to say that those people made a choice to support the terrorists by hosting the terrorist training camps and weapons hideouts, and the residents of those towns now suffer from the consequences of their own choice.

Still, I think that it is a terrible waste of human life for the Palestinians that have chosen to die for the sake of supporting terrorism, rather than elect a civilized government that is capable of reaching a peaceful settlement with Israel. Especially when Israel was willing to give them 97% of everything they demanded, without the need for any terrorism at all.

Well, this post is getting too long, so if I have not responded to any point you made, please remind me and I will be glad to pick up where I left off.

[alm0nd]

I'm confused :confused:

You are telling me that it is OK to kill the Palestinian and that all the "atrocities" committed by Israeli forces are justified when few lines before that you were saying that "it was an accident"


I don't know how can you make peace that is forced by the power of tanks and helicopters. You kill Palestinian kids because they are killing your kids and Palestinian kill your kids because you are killing there kids... will that ever end ?!

I really feel sorry when I see all those dead people in the streets.. especially YOUR streets..

[muslim4israel2]

sacha,

The voice of reason. Welcome man!

Great cricket team Aus have, see Shoaib break Brett's record?

:D

[Soul]

Hi again,

I thought to stop posting till June. But couldn't stop myself from saying this:

Dear Sacha , Almost every single tragedy Israel causes, they have thier justifications ready before even it happens.They kill , they massacare hundreds, and they have thier justufications ready from ages.These people are playing a dirty game,and unfortunately , they know how to play it.


Simply , from westren media, watch these clips:

1- Israel Operations Exposed (CBC News Canada) (http://cbc.ca/clips/ram-lo/macdonald_censored020318.ram)


2- Israel Exposed (BBC United Kingdom) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1920000/video/_1924313_mideast_guerin17_vi.ram)



And here is Mohammed Al durras movie (A shame to Every Israeli forever) :-

Click Here , Mohammed Durra's Movies. (http://www.almanar.com.lb/flashes/3.rm)

In this movie , the Israelis killed the child with cold blood, The father is shouting (The child is killed by a bullet), the child dies, to write the history with his blood.

The Israelis here will try every singly way to justify all these acts.NO NO it wasn't by mistake! don't say crap please.



Till when you try to hide your reality ?


What's worst than being hit on the head by the truth ?


bye again.

[christian]

EZRA,

I like to talk to muslim. When ever they don't agree, they always tell you to go to hell.

We have a some of those in Singapore. A few months ago, they try to blow up the Singapore subway in the name of allah.

Can't you believe this!We never fight for religion. We only fight for the racial survival. The muslim still wants to blow us up anyway.

The moderate didn't say any s***.

Do you notice the post above?

It is quite a typical "moderate muslim" broadcasting in the world today. It is more like "moderate nazi" to me.

yes. it is true. The israelis kill the babies. It is also true the palestinian kill the jewish babies too.

The world don't realize if the palestinian win, there will be more disruption in world economy. Since, politician is thinking about their economy.

I am not very objective. I admit it. However, I know everyone is bad in politics.

A lots of people don't realize it. In their eyes, they only have good guy and bad guy. In fact, everyone is in the game for themselves. period.

[Soul]

Christian, I will not bother myself to say much.Just have a look of how much hatred these people hide for you,

The i copy/ pasted this from a thread in Religion Forum, Simply this is a post by a Religous Jew (Oh Jerusalem) , who's trying to explain some Texts from the Holy Talmud of Jews.

==============================================
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh Jerusalem : I have no problem with this. Take away the immaculate conception nonsense and the conclusion is obvious. Nothing to deny here, on my part.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh Jerusalem : I don't have The Shabbat Tractate in front of me now. If it says that, again, no problem here either.


==============================================

Here is the whole thread
Here is the whole thread (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=330&pagenumber=2)


Now , tell me if muslims are the real ones who hide hatred.Wondering till when Jews will try to hide facts.

[L@mplighterM]

What?s the point Soul?

What do I care what a book says and in any event what does this have to do with anything? Have you ever heard Jews preach that Christians worship the son of a whore? Let?s say for an argument that they did what injury would that cause? Even if this were whispered on the lips of Jews behind closed doors why would it have any bearing on anything?

On the other hand it?s evident that from the pages of the Koran flows great evil. Would Islamic Fundamentalism be a reality without the birth of Mohammed? Would the Koran have been written without the Torah? Would the Koran have been written without the New Testament?

This is really something that should be posted on the religious thread.

[muslim4israel2]

Edited by staff to remove racist comments.



For 2000 years Christians have persecuted Jews as "Christ killers".

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Yeah the Jewish faith is very anti Christian. For 2000 years Christians have persecuted Jews as "Christ killers".

So what?

[muslim4israel2]

Edited by staff to remove racist comments.

[Ezra]

Nice try again Soul...

He is trying to create a fight between Jewish and Christians here!

Ohhh.. A typical Muslim!

[Barkokhba]

Originally posted by Soul
Christian, I will not bother myself to say much.Just have a look of how much hatred these people hide for you,

The i copy/ pasted this from a thread in Religion Forum, Simply this is a post by a Religous Jew (Oh Jerusalem) , who's trying to explain some Texts from the Holy Talmud of Jews.

==============================================
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sanhedrin 106a. Says Jesus' mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh Jerusalem : I have no problem with this. Take away the immaculate conception nonsense and the conclusion is obvious. Nothing to deny here, on my part.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh Jerusalem : I don't have The Shabbat Tractate in front of me now. If it says that, again, no problem here either.


==============================================

Here is the whole thread
Here is the whole thread (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=330&pagenumber=2)


Now , tell me if muslims are the real ones who hide hatred.Wondering till when Jews will try to hide facts.


Soul, you cannot even verify that any of this is true. I can find many quotes of fatwas issued by Muslim leaders that say that non-Muslims are animals and deserve to be killed. Does that mean that all Muslims are terrorist animals. No it doesn't. You on the other hand seem to a hate-monger. If all you are interested in is causing fights I invite you to attend a Jerry Springer taping.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
So Judy-ism is the HATE business, explains why few ppl like you. You hate all Muslims/Christians-thats 3bn outta 6bn.

Well done. :rolleyes:

I don't hate anyone.

[Soul]

Originally posted by Barkokhba



Soul, you cannot even verify that any of this is true. I can find many quotes of fatwas issued by Muslim leaders that say that non-Muslims are animals and deserve to be killed. Does that mean that all Muslims are terrorist animals. No it doesn't. You on the other hand seem to a hate-monger. If all you are interested in is causing fights I invite you to attend a Jerry Springer taping.



I am not talking about what human beings say , I'm talking about what God SAYS in holy books ! Let us focus on Virgin Mary Issue and The propher Jesus,the Quran places both Christ and his mother in high positions, and has a Sura named after Mariam and places her as one of the most sacred women, the only one in the Quran that is called her full name, whereas the Jewish scripture, the Talmud, obviously written by Christ's haters, insults both Christ and his mother and regards Mary as a whore.How awful !

Ezra , Did what i write is there in the Talmud or no ? if you know ,speak up , if no, zip your mouth please. Don't claim you're a christian , no real christian will find it so comfy if someone calls Virgin Mary a whore ! or Jesus , son of a whore (God forbids)

I just wanted to show Mr Christian some facts.

[L@mplighterM]

I am not talking about what human beings say , I'm talking about what God SAYS in holy books ! Let us focus on Virgin Mary Issue and The propher Jesus,the Quran places both Christ and his mother in high positions, and has a Sura named after Mariam and places her as one of the most sacred women, the only one in the Quran that is called her full name, whereas the Jewish scripture, the Talmud, obviously written by Christ's haters, insults both Christ and his mother and regards Mary as a whore.How awful !

Ezra , Did what i write is there in the Talmud or no ? if you know ,speak up , if no, zip your mouth please. Don't claim you're a christian , no real christian will find it so comfy if someone calls Virgin Mary a whore ! or Jesus , son of a whore (God forbids)

I just wanted to show Mr Christian some facts.

Are you looking for converts? Are you trying to start a religious war?

[alm0nd]

christian ....

I think you are in the wrong thread ! Because there is no EZRA in here :p


Anyway... We are talking about how human rights are violated everyday by the Israeli Army... I don't know what the muslims of Singapore have to do with that matter!

If your are saying that muslims in Singapore and Palestine and even Kuwait are all terrorists just because they are muslims then your are wrong my friend !

We are not talking about Muslims Jews and Christians.. we are talking about human beans being killed and hungered regardless of there religion and race.

What we want is for the the whole world to know about the horrible things that are happening in Palestine and to do every thing they can to STOP IT.

[L@mplighterM]

What we want is for the the whole world to know about the horrible things that are happening in Palestine and to do every thing they can to STOP IT.


I think you're using outated maps.

[alm0nd]

I think you lost your map somewhere... go look for it ! :rolleyes:

[L@mplighterM]

We are talking about how human rights are violated everyday

horrible things that are happening in Palestine


Terrible things are happening in Israel and it's not called Palestine.

[muslim4israel2]

you are aware that PALESTINE has been in existance before 1948, and is in existance as we type arent you?

were abouts in PALESTINE do you live?

Is it in the illegally annexed bit?

:cool:

[alm0nd]

I was watching a historical program just few hours ago and found out something interesting..

In 1947 a famous Jew newspaper was bombed during the Jew-Arab-English conflict that was happening at that time.. Do you know what was that JEW newspaper
called?

Palestine Post
:D :D


"Palestine" that I'm talking about is the Arabic part which was invaded by the Israelis in 1967 once .. and in 2002 gain

This part is what I mean when I talk about the "horrible things that are happening in Palestine".. do you have a problem with that?

[L@mplighterM]

In 1947 a famous Jew newspaper was bombed during the Jew-Arab-English conflict that was happening at that time.. Do you know what was that JEW newspaper
called?

Palestine Post

This is 2002 have you been sleeping?

[Soul]

Muslim and Alm0nd, salam 1st,

Do you know why he couldn't call it Palestine ?

Here is the reason,


From :http://www.templemountfaithful.org/News/20020409.htm
I will bring some Important cuts from the long Text.
=======================
The reply of The Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement and the people of Israel to President Bush is that we only obey the G–d of Israel Who gave the land of Israel to His chosen people, Israel, in an eternal covenant. Only G–d is the owner of all the universe and only He can give any land that He wants to whomever He decides to give it. The only nation in the world that ever had a land given to it directly by G–d Himself in an eternal covenant, written and signed by the Hand of G–d Himself, is the people of Israel. All other countries in the world control their land by right of conquest.

<< >>

Our message to President Bush is: "Your 'vision' for the founding of a 'Palestinian' state is not acceptable to G–d. Despite that, as the president of the largest physical power of our time, you feel that you are the only leader in the world; there is only one leader of all the world and that is G–d Himself. You should learn from history about the leaders of major empires who felt that they were the leaders of the world and tried to challenge or fight against the decisions of G–d. This was the experience of the Assyrian king, Sennacherib, who felt that he was the only ruler in the world at the time of King Hezekiah and came to take the land of Israel from the people of G–d. G–d showed him very clearly that there is no meaning to physical power; it exists today and tomorrow passes away."

==========================


This guy must have the same opinion.So don't be shocked.

[alm0nd]

So...

1) You don't want to hear about anything called "Palestine"
2) You want to kill the Palestinians
3) You want the Palestinians to shut up and enjoy it
4) You want the world to congratulate you on your deeds
5) You want to live in peace
6) When you die you want to go to heaven


Somebody tell me how is that possible!!!

:confused:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by alm0nd
So...

1) You don't want to hear about anything called "Palestine"
2) You want to kill the Palestinians
3) You want the Palestinians to shut up and enjoy it
4) You want the world to congratulate you on your deeds
5) You want to live in peace
6) When you die you want to go to heaven


Somebody tell me how is that possible!!!

:confused:

Actually I’m a hardcore Atheist and you’re a Thespian presenting prepared speeches for the world to read.

Do you really believe that nonsense in real life?

[Barkokhba]

Originally posted by Soul




I am not talking about what human beings say , I'm talking about what God SAYS in holy books ! Let us focus on Virgin Mary Issue and The propher Jesus,the Quran places both Christ and his mother in high positions, and has a Sura named after Mariam and places her as one of the most sacred women, the only one in the Quran that is called her full name, whereas the Jewish scripture, the Talmud, obviously written by Christ's haters, insults both Christ and his mother and regards Mary as a whore.How awful !

Ezra , Did what i write is there in the Talmud or no ? if you know ,speak up , if no, zip your mouth please. Don't claim you're a christian , no real christian will find it so comfy if someone calls Virgin Mary a whore ! or Jesus , son of a whore (God forbids)

I just wanted to show Mr Christian some facts.


Soul, I am not trying to be offensive, but your English is so poor I wonder if your message is being delivered accurately. you have copied and pasted lines that come from the Talmud- tell me are they in the Mishna or Gemara- what did Rashi have to say about them. If you cannot answer these questions and they are honest, than you certainly cannot accept your textual quotes as being accurate.

Secondly, you will never hear a knowledgeable Jew use the term "christ," we do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a man.

[Barkokhba]

Originally posted by alm0nd
I was watching a historical program just few hours ago and found out something interesting..

In 1947 a famous Jew newspaper was bombed during the Jew-Arab-English conflict that was happening at that time.. Do you know what was that JEW newspaper
called?

Palestine Post
:D :D

You seem to lack an understanding of the history-or you would know how the name Palestine was derived and thatabout 60 years ago anyone from Palestine was assumed to be Jewish, I guess that makes us the real Palestinians.

Kudos to ancient Rome for their help today.

[ibrodsky]

"Palestine" was Rome's Jewish colony. The fact that Arabs have adopted this name is telling... they have no real roots to the place.

The "imperialists" are the Arabs who came to Palestine from Arabia. When Zionists began to return, most of the native Arabs who already lived there were nomads with no firm connection to any specific plots of land.

Arabs settled in Palestine's cities as a result of the commercial activity generated by Zionists.

The truth is that Arabs have never even graduated to the nation-building stage of history. The British had to carve up the Arab world (which had been run by the Turks for hundreds of years) to create states.

You needed us to help you create viable nation-states.
You needed us to drill for your oil.
You need us to buy your oil.
You needed us to liberate Kuwait from one of its Arab "brothers."

Start acting at least just a little bit humble. The Qu'ran requires it.

[alm0nd]

You know what the proplem is?


The proplem is that I'm talking about the crimes that are being commeted right now and you are giving me history lessons! :)

If you want to talk about histroty start a new thread and I'll meet you there. :cool:

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by alm0nd
You know what the proplem is?


The proplem is that I'm talking about the crimes that are being commeted right now and you are giving me history lessons! :)

If you want to talk about histroty start a new thread and I'll meet you there. :cool:

Your post is history! And by the time you read this so is mine.

Get one thing clear Israel has commited no crimes against Palestinians past, present nor will they in the future.

[muslim4israel2]

Absolutely none at all. What are those millions of global protestors on about?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Absolutely none at all. What are those millions of global protestors on about?


The global protestors amount to a small part of 1% and I’m certain that the organizers are well paid from the proceeds of oil money. More people line up to see a movie or at the women’s washrooms at a sports game.

[christian]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM



The global protestors amount to a small part of 1% and I’m certain that the organizers are well paid from the proceeds of oil money. More people line up to see a movie or at the women’s washrooms at a sports game.

It is very well said. MOST OF the So called "GLOBAL PROTESTER" are islam.

I don't see any 1 million people protests in US from Christian section. May be there is one or two. They are not very importatn in the global protest.

In Hong Kong, two days ago, there is protest against Israelis incursion. "Protesters" are Islam. There are no chinese in the protest.

Please look at the facts. Don't utter and misuse the words "GLOBAL PROTEST".

Not many people in the world gives a about palestian or israelis or muslim. The world concern, because the world wants a stable oil price. On top of that, we have a global recession. The politician will not maintain in power, because of bad economy.

Many people in the world pro-israel is not like pro-Israel. They don't want to be islamiclized by Muslim. It is so in the history. Please don't say the world is behind muslim. I don't want to laugh.


The EU is not pro-muslim either. The EU just applies the use of euro this year. They have to stablize the world affairs at all cost within EU influence. Or else, the eu will have a rough ride. On top of that, we have a global recession. (It is the biggest test of EU in history.)

The american is pro-israel. The trouble is that they have to please the EU. Anything unstability in EU will rock the economy in US too.(Remember the millions of global protesters against globalization, they are real)

Many people don't realize it, job lost is all over the world. Any further economic decline will creates a local war. (Remind you, Venezula) If we have a further economic decline, we will have a civil war. If we have further economic decline, we will have a country to country war.

Everyone, if we are in the middle of clinton adminstration,(the best economic growth in 40 years), the EU will silence(silence means approval). The us will stand behind Israel. The arabs will continue their support on Palestinian. The other parts of the world dont give a s***. Eveyone is going to their daily business.