Is there a military solution? [Archive]

Eli the Arab

06-10-2001, 08:12 AM

Unbelievable.

Let consider the facts:

1. Israel is occupying a civilian population. There is no way around that truth.

2. Civilians rebel when under oppression. The human beings on the West Bank of the Jordan River, and the Gaza Strip, have established themselves as belonging to the Palestinian nation.

3. Israel not only occupies all the land around Palestinian cities (effectively creating urban concentration camps), but ALSO threatens the mostly civilian population with RETALIATION every time one of theirs escapes the ghetto to sow destruction in the enemy's house.

4. Retaliation, a favorite and brutal tactic that Israel and the Israeli people cling to, is totally ineffective. The Palestinians have already shifted into "hopeless gear". Hopeless people do hopeless acts.

5. Israelis are once again responsible for shooting themselves in the foot (a famous characteristic). They and their media have demonized their neighbor's leaders (not to mention assassinating some of them), and now they cry for a hand to hold.

6. Arafat, while certainly ugly, is not a terrorist, as many paranoic fellow Semites like parrot. He is simply the leader of the Palestinians, and will do anything to help HIS people. It will serve you no purpose to lament on your "lost peace-partner", like sheep. Why don'y you be real men and women and talk to your enemies with dignity, you might recieve some in return.

7. The alternative is plastic explosive, nails, and more wailing men and women (on all sides)...

Chaim

06-10-2001, 06:03 PM

The usage of the word concentration camp implies a place where people are brought together to be exterminated. The Arabs continuously use 'words' from the Holocaust to bring up images from Nazi Germany, however at the same time they either deny or approve of the slaughter of 7,000,000 innocent Jews.

Fact: In 1967 the Arab nations once again rattled their sabers & were once again defeated. This time however, the Jews reoccupied their native homeland. The Palestinians were let down by their Arab bretheren once again, and were left to the Israeli's to deal with.

In 2000 Prime Minister Barak offered a peace plan for the Palestinians, more sweeping than anyone expected, the Palestinians replied with violence and terrorism.

The fact is that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, even when Israel was divided by the British in 1948, the 'occupied territories' were called Trans Jordan.

Eli the Arab

06-10-2001, 06:24 PM

Interesting:

And didn't the Knesset pass legislation making these "agreements" a near-impossibility to approve. Didn't Sharon wiggle his fat butt on the Haram Al-Sharif (or Temple Mount) to provoke the Palestinians, to add insult to the injury caused by their daily debasement and humiliation.

Wake up! Have you ever drove through the West Bank? I have, many times. Even in the "glory days" of the Oslo talks, Palestinians were treated to IDF daily "pleasantries", such as slaps on the face, kicking women at checkpoints, insulting them with racist remarks. Yeah, they sure felt good, but these Palestinian people went to their homes, with their children seeing the shame on their parents' faces. I tell you, it is a shameful, heart-tearing situation.

7 million Jews died, but we weren't involved. The Germans were, as well as the masses of Polish and Russian peasants who for centuries nurtured a horrific hate for your people. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARABS.

Wake up!

EZwriter

06-10-2001, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Eli the Arab
Interesting:

And didn't the Knesset pass legislation making these "agreements" a near-impossibility to approve. Didn't Sharon wiggle his fat butt on the Haram Al-Sharif (or Temple Mount) to provoke the Palestinians, to add insult to the injury caused by their daily debasement and humiliation.

Wake up! Have you ever drove through the West Bank? I have, many times. Even in the "glory days" of the Oslo talks, Palestinians were treated to IDF daily "pleasantries", such as slaps on the face, kicking women at checkpoints, insulting them with racist remarks. Yeah, they sure felt good, but these Palestinian people went to their homes, with their children seeing the shame on their parents' faces. I tell you, it is a shameful, heart-tearing situation.

7 million Jews died, but we weren't involved. The Germans were, as well as the masses of Polish and Russian peasants who for centuries nurtured a horrific hate for your people. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ARABS.

Wake up!

ok, first of all, the Temple Mount is a natural place for ANY Israeli, including Sharon or anyone else to go as they please. it is, after all, Israeli land.

The fact that Israel allows the Waqf (Muslim religious authority) to oversee that land is a generous, if stupid, move on the part of Israel, which tries to bend over backwards to appease their muslim enemies.

Secondly, even during the days of Oslo, Arabd continued to murder innocent Israeli civilians and Islamic terrorism was always there, so that Israel was right to have its military question suspicios Arabs, who were entering Israel.

Thirdly, I think YOU need to wake up and realize that the present situation has EVERYTHING to do with the Arabs and Islam in general.

The fact is that all over the world, muslims attempt to murder and ethnically cleanse their neighbors. Example, your own puppet country of Lebanon where the muslims (also headed partially by Arabfat) slaughtered their Christian neighbors by the thousands. Another exmaple is muslim terrorism in the United States. Another exmaple is muslim terror in Chechnya. Another example is the current muslim terrorism in the Philipines. Another example is extremist muslims even slaughtering thousands of their own brothers in Algeria when they have nothing better to do. Muslim terror in Germany and France, sponsored by the Islamic republic of Iran. The list goes on and on.

The problem is not Israel. You need to wake up to the fact muslims murder all of their neighbors. This has happenned historically and it is still going on till today in Israle and all over the world.

Now I'm not saying that all muslims are murderes. They are not, to be sure, but there are enough that represent Islam to make is clear that this is an Islamic problem, not an Israeli one.

Bibi4ever

06-10-2001, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Eli the Arab
Unbelievable.

Let consider the facts:

1. Israel is occupying a civilian population. There is no way around that truth.

2. Civilians rebel when under oppression. The human beings on the West Bank of the Jordan River, and the Gaza Strip, have established themselves as belonging to the Palestinian nation.

7. The alternative is plastic explosive, nails, and more wailing men and women (on all sides)...

I'm just responding to these points for time constraints.

1 and 2: The arabs are not some innocent civilian population. They send their own children to do their dirty work and to murder Israeli civilians. It is the Israeli civilians who are under attack from arab terrorists every day.

israel has not retaliated intentionally against civilians, but unfortunately only against mostly empty PA government offices.

If Israel was to relaliate against civilians as is how Arab countries "take care" of insurrections, then maybe there would be fewer arab suicide bombers.

7. The alternative is for Israel to level the sources of palestinian fire and deal with it as a full-blown war. Israel must forcefully move the arab enemy population into territories where a viable physical separation can take place. For exmaple, further into the Gaza strip and into neighboring arab countries like Egypt and jordan (which is the Palestinian state in any event).

Then there can be a unilateral separation and goodbye to the Palestinians and their problems.

let them rule themselves in gaza and egypt and jordan and even in lebanon. That's the alternative to the present day arab terror.

Sonny

06-11-2001, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Eli the Arab

6. Arafat, while certainly ugly, is not a terrorist, as many paranoic fellow Semites like parrot. He is simply the leader of the Palestinians, and will do anything to help HIS people. It will serve you no purpose to lament on your "lost peace-partner", like sheep. Why don'y you be real men and women and talk to your enemies with dignity, you might recieve some in return.

That's ridiculous.

Arafat is a terrorist and a direct murderer of Israeli women and children.

For years, Israel's left-leaning governments spoke to him with completely undeserved dignity and still no results.

Arafat needs to be treated like the murderer that he is, and it is only Arab oil and political pressure that stops Israel from dealing with him appropriately.

Not Beilin

06-11-2001, 06:54 PM

The arabs just won't face reality, it seems.

Terrorism is terrorism. period. stop whining about the arabs' "hurt feelings" that they are being treated as suspects by the Israeli army. A great deal of them are involved in acts of violence against innocent Israelis and are being treated appropriately as terrorists which they are.

NewsGuy

06-13-2001, 03:25 PM

Sure there can be a military solution, but Israel is clearly not willing to bear the price it would have to pay if a military solution was put into effect.

The fact is that the Palestinians are having a very grass-roots uprising, which means that to stop it, not only would the entire PA official infrastructure need to be eliminated, but also, there would need to be severe strikes against arab civilians.

This the world will not stand for.

Israel knows that it is a nuclear superpower that can withstand almost any military onslaught, but it cannot deal with the consequences of striking thousands of civilians.

There would be war reparations and sanctions and political and economic isolation for the next several years.

So, while possible, I do not believe that Israel will try a military solution, even though, they might topple Arafat and the PA sooner or later.

Jean le Ne

06-17-2001, 08:20 PM

The answer to that question depends on what you figure a solution is; is the solution to kill the enemy? Or to ensure the safety of your own folks?

I don't think there is a military solution because I believe the solution is peace. Further, I believe that peace needs to include a Palestinian state, created with some reasonable chance to survive, economically...

Negev

06-18-2001, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by Jean le Ne
The answer to that question depends on what you figure a solution is; is the solution to kill the enemy? Or to ensure the safety of your own folks?

I don't think there is a military solution because I believe the solution is peace. Further, I believe that peace needs to include a Palestinian state, created with some reasonable chance to survive, economically...

Sure, the solution is peace, but this seems to be something that the current PA does not want, so it looks to many that eliminating the PA and its infrastructure is the only way to get peace.

For exmaple, Barak offered Araft an extremely (maybe overly)generous offer of peace, territory and an economic infrastructure, and even a capital in Jerusalem, but Arafat turned it down and began terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. As such, the Arabs are the ones who turned to a military solution already.

This is what makes many people think that a total elimination of the PA is the only way to achieve peace eventually.

Jean le Ne

06-19-2001, 07:33 PM

NEGEV- Thank you for your reply. I don't want to be flippant or smart *** with my comments; but do the math... How can the elimination of the PA do anything other than clear a track for HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD etc? I understand the frustration the Israelis must feel with Arafat, but if we are going to be brutally honest, Israel has to take some responsibility, not only for their part in the conflict, historically, but for their placement, in some ways, of the PA. Israel has allowed the PA to basically shoulder the dirty work of trying to control a dispossessed and disorganized population. Obviously the Palestinians are way less impressed with job Israel is doing of over seeing their best interests, then some in Israel feel they are. To hear some Israeli talk about the thing, you'd think the Palestinians ought to be sending thank-you notes. The basic of this mess will not change, with or without Arafat. That is just wishful thinking. The basics are Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, and all of those things need to be attended to. There is going to be a state of Palestine, and with all of the risk involved, Israel has to accept that. If, after that state is created, the nutcases on the Islamic side keep insisting that Israel has to go, then I truly believe the all important opinion of other democracies may shift, for Israel and against the militants...

watcher

09-12-2001, 07:46 PM

The complete elimination of the pa is truly correct. It is obvious there was no way to avoid jihad, hamas, or whatever they want to call their fruitless ignorant actions. Their true intentions I'm sure have by now been shown against them, only a terrorist would agree with them. Their lawlessness will work against them. If there are those so opposed against the occupation in Israel then they should leave Israel. Israel should never tolerate hateful violent people, Israel is to be a city of peace FOREVER.

Negev

09-12-2001, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by watcher
Their true intentions I'm sure have by now been shown against them, only a terrorist would agree with them. Their lawlessness will work against them.

And yet the world so far does nothing against them and tries to prevent Israel from protecting itself against those terrorists.

How do you explain that?

watcher

09-17-2001, 12:50 AM

Israel never disappeared despite the diasporas Israel is in the Promised land. Try as they might to rid us... the Chosen people will forever stay! The tiny speck on the globe Israel overcame many progroms, efforts to try to obliterate the people of Israel if not that then to employ some sort of conversion to their ways by the many surrounding peoples... They all failed! What can they really do to us? Israel is still here.

One could never compare Israel to a nation of terrorists yet, yes, there is more pity towards the terrorists backing them up than Israel! The others complain Israel separates itself from the world only looking after itself. Israel is to be a land of Shalom, where others who visit will be at complete peace. Israel is to always remember how and why Israel is the Chosen people in the Promised land. The tiny speck of land on the globe is all we really need. Those plotting against us will fail! Their devices will work against them! Israel stands Forever! We always should remember and appreciate such a wonderful gift of existing as Israel.

If I sound Extreme myself I don't wish to offend but give glory right now and not worry there's always people who get offended, It's impossible to please everyone but as long as the One is pleased it's all that matters... but who am I.

Sabra

09-17-2001, 01:59 PM

Some would argue that the new closed military buffer zone is the beginning of a military solution.

TexasMan

09-22-2001, 10:04 AM

Arab

Anyone who uses suicide bombers, or encourages suicide bombers, is a terrorist. The main palistinian weapon is terror. Thus arafat, while ugly, is in fact a terrorist. PS you can't terrorize the strong. That is why Israel is still there. When you attack the strong they become resolute. When you attack the most powerful nation on earth the voices that protected you are hushed and the mighty voice of America speaks. Her voice like a lion rings out "Justice!". We don't care who killed who over there. You killed ours now we will kill you. You can nuke us, gas us what ever. Every time you strike us we grow stronger and meaner.

takeo

01-06-2002, 01:05 AM

So Israel is the choosen land and has the right to oppress and occupy the palestinian original population, and the best solution would be to "replace" all Palestinians as (and this is right) the whole palestinian population will keep fighting against Israeli oppression. And of course Arafat has to be killed and the PA destroyed.
this seems to be what you mean with "military solution" and it seems to be popular on this board, no matter what the refreshing Arab voice on this board said (as usual his arguments were not responded to).
This military solution is reminding me of the "Endloesung" for the Palestinian problem. And stop whining about the dead Israeli (or Americans) a multitude of that have been killed by Israel, and any terrorist attack on israel is in direct response to terrorist and illegal occupation Israel is conducting on the palestinians for years. It seems that the land is only Choosen for one people, the other people that happens to live there is just TOO MUCH. Of course this military solution is pure fascism, it is like Hitler killing whole Russian regions because the population supported the resistance against the oppressors. Yes, the policy of Israel is often compared to the policy of nazi-Germany, because they are very similar (someone even used the sentence"the final solution for the Palestinian problem").
One thing is for sure: this military solution will only further isolate Israel (wich should be) , and will make stronger the ennemies of israel (and the ones not content with the return of occupied territories and refugees, but the ones whishing the total destruction of israel) . When you destroy the PA and kill arafat, this will only have one consequence, the struggle against Israel will from that moment be conducted by hamas and Jihad, and their popularity will rise like a rocket, moderate palestinians will become radical too, and EVERY palestinian will support suiceide -attacks (now only 25 percent), of course as a consequence there will be a lot more terrorism against Israel. And arab and islamic states all over the world will activily support palestinians and create together an army to defeat Israel (today the differences between the states are still too big, but if Israel exaggerates this can change). The west, Europe and the US, and certainly the public opinion, will no longer support Israel and sanction Israel for its policy. the military solution will lead Israel into destruction and is good news for hamas.
only peace can provide a future for israel, even if israel has to do BIG concessions and total peace will still not be immidiately in place, but the alternative is catastrophy and a regional war, which israel might loose too.

watcher

01-07-2002, 12:59 PM

Hmm 25% support suicide attacks? and those numbers may rise?
What type of people are they who would consider such acts?
If they don't like Israel so much then they can always leave to their own lands, They don't have to cause such atrocities! If there are those who want to live in Israel in peace then please feel free to do so! Do not violate the land with terrorism Israel is supposed to be a land of peace. Shalom

takeo

01-07-2002, 05:50 PM

they are mostly desperate people who lost everything, their house, brothers, sisters, their son, etc. because of the war and the occupation. they seek refuge in hating israel and in islam. That are the ones who support suicide bombings. Fortunately still i minority, but if Israel makes most palestinians that desperate it will become more.

"If there are those who want to live in Israel in peace then please feel free to do so! "
If you mean "pre-1967-israel", i'm glad that you think so, that is my opinion too. However i'm not sure the other members will agree...
the ones who really hate Israel will stay in Palestine or whereever they are now. they don't want to live amongst Jews. the ones who only want their birthground and homes back and live in peace, will come back.

watcher

01-07-2002, 08:17 PM

If "palestinians" really don't like living amongst the Jews and they really would like to live back at their birthground then they should leave Israel and go back to where they came from! they should stop trying to claim land that doesn't really belong to them! What's next? Will they try to claim France, Spain or even America?
Israel has only one homeland that is all of Israel. Just a little tiny pinspot on all earth no more, no less. "palestine" has no claim whatsoever. It was created after Rome removed most of Israel leaving a small remnant, then took surrounding peoples to move into the land which they renamed "palestine" thus attempting to remove the name Israel off the map. The diaspora is over Israel is back! "palestinians" can return to their collective territories once again if they can't manage a moment of peace, but if the hate can be removed or there are those who don't have the hatred and violent ways... Then they are more then welcome to stay in peace in the tiny land of Israel. Shalom.

takeo

01-08-2002, 02:10 AM

"If "palestinians" really don't like living amongst the Jews and they really would like to live back at their birthground then they should leave Israel and go back to where they came from! "

that will be difficult because their birthground is in israel.
And Jews left 2000 years ago, no single people can claim a country back because they lived there 2000 years ago! Since 2000 years (and a lot more, because palestinians (filistines) already lived in israel/palestine in biblical times) palestinians lived in Palestine, and that is not a short period!
So face it both peoples have to share, none can claim it all as its property.
I guess that the ones who don't want to live among Jews go to live in the Palestinian state and join the Palestinians already living there and those who don't mind go back to israel (if their family came from a region that is now Israel).

watcher

01-08-2002, 04:32 PM

The Jews never really left, there were many who were allowed to remain after the majority were forced out and the so-called "palestinians" were moved in from other countries by Rome. "palestine" was a name given to the people moved there by Rome to attempt to erase Israel off the map. Reality is "palestinians" have absolutely NO CLAIM of Israel!!! They were allowed to live in peaceful existance within the borders of Israel but it seems impossible to expect peace with all the terrorist attrocities inflicted upon Israel. Therefore if there is no change from such hateful murderous behavior... then these "palestinians" must leave Israel!!! They must return to the countries which they came from!!!

takeo

01-09-2002, 07:06 PM

you can't punish a whole population for the acts of some.
besides, Palestinians moved in 2000 years ago and possibly longer ago, we both agree on that. That gives them sufficient rights to stay in Israel or palestine as an indigenious people. After 2000 years ago one can be considered an indigenious people, don't you think so? Otherwise there are few indigenious peoples in the world. besides, look at Jewish history, the Jews also came originally from the east didn't they?

watcher

01-10-2002, 09:28 AM

I've never said punish the population for the acts of all those violent people... Just if residence within the borders of Israel is desired than live in peace, if not leave at once! Israel is back so "palestine is to be no more, the label "palestine" that was created to cover Israel is to be finally removed since the diaspora is over.

If these people desire to stay then they could do so in peace, if they want to stir up trouble or cause violent attrocities then they should go back to their own countries.

Yes Abraham was from Ur which is around the southern region of Iraq, then to put it short eventually Israel settled in the homeland which you call "palestine" again which is really a label. If you were wondering about the previous residents they were not to stay for much longer with those vile acts they have commited. Case in point look at sodom and gomorrah and the other three cities. They were not Jews but lived within the borders of Israel before Israel moved there. Would you stake your claim upon the land upon the basis of these people?

takeo

01-10-2002, 10:40 AM

"I've never said punish the population for the acts of all those violent people... "
that's exactly what Sharon is doing

"Just if residence within the borders of Israel is desired than live in peace, if not leave at once!"

That's what Sharon and most people on this board don't want, in peace or not in peace.

"Israel is back so "palestine is to be no more, the label "palestine" that was created to cover Israel is to be finally removed since the diaspora is over. "

Palestine is the historic name of the country since 2000 years. Since Jewish colonisation we have both Palestine and Israel, a newly created state that has only in the propaganda something to do with jewish presence there 2000 years ago. The zionist conference even consididered of taking Uganda or Argentinia as there homeland (if they had done the last one, none of the current problems would have emerged, as most of argentinia was empy, for sure in the south). Again, 2000 years is not a short time, only in the eyes of some religious fanatics.

"Yes Abraham was from Ur which is around the southern region of Iraq, then to put it short eventually Israel settled in the homeland which you call "palestine" again which is really a label. If you were wondering about the previous residents they were not to stay for much longer with those vile acts they have commited. Case in point look at sodom and gomorrah and the other three cities. They were not Jews but lived within the borders of Israel before Israel moved there. Would you stake your claim upon the land upon the basis of these people?"

It only means that nor the Jews, nor the Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Israel, so both can not make claims based on their presence in early history in this region. (besides, nobody can)

watcher

01-13-2002, 12:46 AM

I've never said punish the population for the acts of all those violent people...

"that's exactly what Sharon is doing"

Sharon shouldn't have to resort to sending them to their rooms like bad little children, but with hatred taught in schools, terrorists running rampant, and no one to rein in the violent... what else can Sharon do?? Try to stop the ongoing hatred there might be progress if not... Then go each to your homeland.

Just if residence within the borders of Israel is desired than live in peace, if not leave at once!

"That's what Sharon and most people on this board don't want, in peace or not in peace."

That is your opinion... If there wasn't such a negative view against Israel there may be inclination to attempt to establish a peaceful existance within Israel.

Israel is back so "palestine is to be no more, the label "palestine" that was created to cover Israel is to be finally removed since the diaspora is over.

"Palestine is the historic name of the country since 2000 years. Since Jewish colonisation we have both Palestine and Israel, a newly created state that has only in the propaganda something to do with jewish presence there 2000 years ago. The zionist conference even consididered of taking Uganda or Argentinia as there homeland (if they had done the last one, none of the current problems would have emerged, as most of argentinia was empy, for sure in the south). Again, 2000 years is not a short time, only in the eyes of some religious fanatics."

Get the facts straight "palestine" is a historic label covering the already established land of Israel if you want to count the creation of the label "palestine" around 2000 years ago historic. As far as what you call religious fanatics... Look at the residents of the land. The three world religions are there, but one predates the rest it wasn't christianity or islam, there will be one that will outlast the rest... It will not be christianity or islam. If there is dispute who truthfully rightfully are the eternal residents of the land then know Israel never really left despite all the campaigns to murder and remove Israel... Israel will always remain.

Yes Abraham was from Ur which is around the southern region of Iraq, then to put it short eventually Israel settled in the homeland which you call "palestine" again which is really a label. If you were wondering about the previous residents they were not to stay for much longer with those vile acts they have commited. Case in point look at sodom and gomorrah and the other three cities. They were not Jews but lived within the borders of Israel before Israel moved there. Would you stake your claim upon the land upon the basis of these people?

"It only means that nor the Jews, nor the Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Israel, so both can not make claims based on their presence in early history in this region. (besides, nobody can) "

If you want to use that as an arguement then can any country in the world validate their respective claims upon their own lands?
Only one people are established residents of the land no other can claim. Even when Israel was forcibly removed from the homeland by the Romans and renamed "palestine" a remnant remained, understand Israel never really left.

How can you really argue against facts? Face it you can never win against the truth. What can you base your arguements against historical evidence not only of Israel but shown by the world? Many try to cover the truth but can never bury the truth... The truth is always revealed.

takeo

01-13-2002, 03:46 AM

"Sharon shouldn't have to resort to sending them to their rooms like bad little children, but with hatred taught in schools, terrorists running rampant, and no one to rein in the violent... what else can Sharon do?? Try to stop the ongoing hatred there might be progress if not... Then go each to your homeland. "

The hatred is exactly aconsequence of the Israeli policy against them over the years. Such acts will further enhance hatred, can't you just see that? Every demolished house is a new potential suicide-killer, every death child will create 5 more potential suicide-killers. one could react by giving the palestinians what they want and negociations and international pressure to reign in terrorism, in such case there would be a lot more goodwill to help Israel.

"That is your opinion... If there wasn't such a negative view against Israel there may be inclination to attempt to establish a peaceful existance within Israel. "

Israel, by its act, has created that negative image and Sharon is still doing so.

"Get the facts straight "palestine" is a historic label covering the already established land of Israel if you want to count the creation of the label "palestine" around 2000 years ago historic. As far as what you call religious fanatics... Look at the residents of the land. The three world religions are there, but one predates the rest it wasn't christianity or islam, there will be one that will outlast the rest... It will not be christianity or islam. If there is dispute who truthfully rightfully are the eternal residents of the land then know Israel never really left despite all the campaigns to murder and remove Israel... Israel will always remain. "

The three religions are historically represented in israel, it is not because the Jewish was the first that it has more rights than the others, it is not because buddism was earlier than Islam in afghanistan that it is the only real religion there, it is not because Greek christianism was first in turkey that it is the only religion there and Greeks the only owners of the country. All peoples who historically moved to a country have the right to be there. they became part of the country and its history. the blacks in south africa don't have the right to remove the white farmers who came there in the 18th century. Even the jews who very recently came to israel have now the right to be there. noone can make historical claims based upon 2000 years ago as it would mean that no single country in the world is legitimate (USA to the Indians, Turkey to the Greeks, Yougoslavia to the albanians, etc.)

"If you want to use that as an arguement then can any country in the world validate their respective claims upon their own lands?
Only one people are established residents of the land no other can claim. Even when Israel was forcibly removed from the homeland by the Romans and renamed "palestine" a remnant remained, understand Israel never really left. "

I don't use that as an argument, YOU do. many people can have historical rights to be in a country, if you don't agree with that than it's pure fascism (i don't say that to insult you, "one people, the oldest present-one country" is the base of fascism and the source of a lot of anti-semitism). according to liberal democratic principles, everyone based in a land for many years can claim to be resident of that land, simple as facts.

"How can you really argue against facts? Face it you can never win against the truth. What can you base your arguements against historical evidence not only of Israel but shown by the world? Many try to cover the truth but can never bury the truth... The truth is always revealed."

This is not THE truth this is YOUR truth not shared by many people.

watcher

01-14-2002, 06:52 AM

I said; Yes Abraham was from Ur which is around the southern region of Iraq, then to put it short eventually Israel settled in the homeland which you call "palestine" again which is really a label. If you were wondering about the previous residents they were not to stay for much longer with those vile acts they have commited. Case in point look at sodom and gomorrah and the other three cities. They were not Jews but lived within the borders of Israel before Israel moved there. Would you stake your claim upon the land upon the basis of these people?

you said, ["It only means that nor the Jews, nor the Palestinians are the original inhabitants of Israel, so both can not make claims based on their presence in early history in this region. (besides, nobody can) "

my reply; If you want to use that as an arguement then can any country in the world validate their respective claims upon their own lands?
Only one people are established residents of the land no other can claim. Even when Israel was forcibly removed from the homeland by the Romans and renamed "palestine" a remnant remained, understand Israel never really left. "

your answer, "I don't use that as an argument, YOU do. many people can have historical rights to be in a country, if you don't agree with that than it's pure fascism (i don't say that to insult you, "one people, the oldest present-one country" is the base of fascism and the source of a lot of anti-semitism). according to liberal democratic principles, everyone based in a land for many years can claim to be resident of that land, simple as facts."

Please try to keep your answers straight... If you want to continue this discussion don't run in circles, just present the facts.

Israel never came to "palestine" Israel came back to Israel that fact has been long established, Israel never really left the land. When the romans kept a remnant of Israel and moved peoples from ago other lands to Israel around 2000 years renaming it "palestine" what ties do "palestinians" have to that land? Other than they are squatters in Israel as Israel is called squatters to these "palestinians".

What type of of people is Israel supposed to be negotiating with? If "palestinians" have so many suicidal murderers it makes you wonder what is spoke at home or taught in schools, but what goes on behind those doors has already been shown to this world. There can never be any excuse for such attrocities committed, no excuse for such hatred! There are laws for such behavior, why must these "palestinians" act in such a lawless manner? Isn't that the behavior of squatters though? When the homeowner returns the squatters get nervous and who knows what they'll do.

I said before; How can you really argue against facts? Face it you can never win against the truth. What can you base your arguements against historical evidence not only of Israel but shown by the world? Many try to cover the truth but can never bury the truth... The truth is always revealed."

your reply was, "This is not THE truth this is YOUR truth not shared by many people."

Well I must please ask you now to present your facts if you say you have the truth... And again I must ask you to keep your answers straight.

takeo

01-14-2002, 08:59 AM

"Please try to keep your answers straight... If you want to continue this discussion don't run in circles, just present the facts."

i was a straight answer to your arguments, you said the people living there before the Jews can't be considered legitimate residents of Israel (you didn't say why), I said nobody can be considered legitimate residents of a country on basis of a hitoric etnical claim. In the liberal democratic principle, not your etnicity or religion is important, but where you live. if you live in a country and your family did, than you are belonging to that country, whatever etnic background you have.

"Israel never came to "palestine" Israel came back to Israel that fact has been long established, Israel never really left the land. When the romans kept a remnant of Israel and moved peoples from ago other lands to Israel around 2000 years renaming it "palestine" what ties do "palestinians" have to that land? Other than they are squatters in Israel as Israel is called squatters to these "palestinians". "

the ties they have is that they lived there for 2000 years...
but even if they only lived there for 100 years they would still have the right to live in israel, as i explained you above. someone whose parents immigrated to the us from Italy 100 years ago is considered an american, someone who immigrated 50 years ago from russia or poland to France is considered a frensh, etc.

"What type of of people is Israel supposed to be negotiating with? If "palestinians" have so many suicidal murderers it makes you wonder what is spoke at home or taught in schools, but what goes on behind those doors has already been shown to this world. There can never be any excuse for such attrocities committed, no excuse for such hatred! There are laws for such behavior, why must these "palestinians" act in such a lawless manner? Isn't that the behavior of squatters though? When the homeowner returns the squatters get nervous and who knows what they'll do. "

They ARE the home-owners, and violence and injustice drive people sometimes to extremist actions ( on BOTH sides by the way, remember Goldstein, or the one who killed rabin, wasn't a Palestinian, was it?) if they were persecuted in a lawless manner. There can't be any excuses for any crime or violence on both sides.

"Well I must please ask you now to present your facts if you say you have the truth... And again I must ask you to keep your answers straight."

I keep my answers straight and present the facts as they are, i respond all your arguments, you don't, start talking about other things (for example we are talking about the right to return and you start about kids being blown up in pizza's) and never give any fact except generalisations that all palestinians and Arafat are terrorists etc. and that Jews are the Choosen people in Israel . One can't discuss such arguments, because they are unreasonable.

__________________

watcher

01-15-2002, 10:39 AM

I said; Please try to keep your answers straight... If you want to continue this discussion don't run in circles, just present the facts.

you said, "i was a straight answer to your arguments, you said the people living there before the Jews can't be considered legitimate residents of Israel (you didn't say why), I said nobody can be considered legitimate residents of a country on basis of a hitoric etnical claim. In the liberal democratic principle, not your etnicity or religion is important, but where you live. if you live in a country and your family did, than you are belonging to that country, whatever etnic background you have. "

If you read my answer you would see I gave an answer why plus an example. Do you think squatters have rights to take away the land by violence, or if there is a way to live together in peace then that should be pursued?

I said; Israel never came to "palestine" Israel came back to Israel that fact has been long established, Israel never really left the land. When the romans kept a remnant of Israel and moved peoples from ago other lands to Israel around 2000 years renaming it "palestine" what ties do "palestinians" have to that land? Other than they are squatters in Israel as Israel is called squatters to these "palestinians.

you said, "the ties they have is that they lived there for 2000 years...
but even if they only lived there for 100 years they would still have the right to live in israel, as i explained you above. someone whose parents immigrated to the us from Italy 100 years ago is considered an american, someone who immigrated 50 years ago from russia or poland to France is considered a frensh, etc."

That doesn't cover the fact "palestine" is a label to cover over Israel. You may have more a point if Israel left the land but Israel never really left. they were still residents in the land when the romans removed the majority placing others in the land. If Israel were completely erased then yes it would be "palestine" but that wasn't the case. For that reason "palestinians" are living in Israel, "palestinians" are the squatters. Now Israel gave "palestinians" many many chances to live there in peace, it is still possible for the peaceable or anyone peaceable to remain... But such crimes and attrocities committed against Israel have been making things difficult you must admit.

I said; What type of of people is Israel supposed to be negotiating with? If "palestinians" have so many suicidal murderers it makes you wonder what is spoke at home or taught in schools, but what goes on behind those doors has already been shown to this world. There can never be any excuse for such attrocities committed, no excuse for such hatred! There are laws for such behavior, why must these "palestinians" act in such a lawless manner? Isn't that the behavior of squatters though? When the homeowner returns the squatters get nervous and who knows what they'll do.

you said, "They ARE the home-owners, and violence and injustice drive people sometimes to extremist actions ( on BOTH sides by the way, remember Goldstein, or the one who killed rabin, wasn't a Palestinian, was it?) if they were persecuted in a lawless manner. There can't be any excuses for any crime or violence on both sides. "

As said before the actions of one doesn't count for the many you cannot count actions of individuals in Israel who were weak and apply that to the rest, but in the same manner it is difficult to excuse the actions of many within the people as a whole you yourself stated around 30% and rising. What does that reflect upon these people? No wonder any attempts towards peace by Israel fail by violent actions of these "palestinians". "There can't be any excuses for any crime or violence on both sides. " The thing is the violence is mainly one sided if you notice the daily actions of the "palestinians" You cannot fault Israel for trying to defend itself.

I said; Well I must please ask you now to present your facts if you say you have the truth... And again I must ask you to keep your answers straight.

your reply, "I keep my answers straight and present the facts as they are, i respond all your arguments, you don't, start talking about other things (for example we are talking about the right to return and you start about kids being blown up in pizza's) and never give any fact except generalisations that all palestinians and Arafat are terrorists etc. and that Jews are the Choosen people in Israel . One can't discuss such arguments, because they are unreasonable."

Yes we are talking about the right to return... The diaspora is over! "palestinian" squatters should all learn together to live in peace in Israel. I never stated all "palestinians" are terrorists" just many are proved to be. Also I never brought up that incident of the bloodthirsty suicidal bomber in the Sbarro's pizzaria, you brought it up all on your own, you gave that example. I didn't have to bring up examples when I mention of "palestinian" attrocities... People aren't as ignorant as you anticipate them to be, they can see through the smokescreen to witness the violent hatred, again which you gave a fine example. Yet I cannot discount the fact there are exceptions who are peaceable. Which are always welcome to live in Israel in peace.

McSceptic

02-06-2002, 06:12 AM

Re right of return, I think Watcher has the most dubious legal argument since the OJ acquital. If not being completely "erased" is what counts (apparently), what if we found someone with a good big chunk of Canaanite DNA (probably not too hard with the way archaeological science is going)? Would everything have to be given to him/her?

A military solution might be achievable, but it would tarnish Israel for ever. No other country at the moment is so dependent on a single idea to keep it in existence. If that idea gets discreditied, the whole edifice will rapidly unwind (am I mixing metaphors?).

Flame

02-06-2002, 08:12 PM

Eli the arab... hate to burst your bubble but arabs worked side by side with hitler.

http://www.varchive.org/obs/480223.htm

http://pub94.ezboard.com/fgalaxy500frm1.showMessage?topicID=5.topic

JustSad

02-07-2002, 01:24 AM

Friends,

Eli and Jean gave an excellent summary of the situation.

Israel treats the Palestinians as slaves. They have been in refugee camps controlled by the Israeli army for decades now. These camps have become cities now, and they are still virtual prisoners.

Don't be surprised when the slaves rebel. You can call it terrorism, they might call it "a freedom fight". And any objective viewer will have to admit that both definitions are right.

My heart breakes when i see that Palestian women in labour are refused at army roadblocks, forcing them to give labour on the street, watched by Israeli soldiers who laugh in their face. Their babies dying because they get no care.

Is this what has become of our beloved Israel and it's ideals?

watcher

02-08-2002, 12:38 PM

Bringing up comments made by Jean le Ne? Let's address what he/she said...

He/she said, "How can the elimination of the PA do anything other than clear a track for HAMAS, ISLAMIC JIHAD etc?"

Sorry but Terrorism is not exclusive to "palestinians", it exists either way. If given the right to gain a state under the present condition of terrorism the world gains nothing but terrorism gets a boost knowing it can receive meaningful gains by employing the use of terror, despite the fact terrorism is being fought on another front.

He/she also said, "I understand the frustration the Israelis must feel with Arafat, but if we are going to be brutally honest, Israel has to take some responsibility, not only for their part in the conflict, historically, but for their placement, in some ways, of the PA."

Historically to be brutally honest the part of the conflict where Israel became involved is when they were consumed within the Roman expansion like many lands at the time... A short while after Masada much of Israel was expelled, then the land of Israel was renamed “palestine”. Some time later when Israel was finally able to return, then was it decided that the state of “palestine” should exist and Yerushalim should be it’s capital so that the return of Israel can be short-lived, and they can effectively keep the land using the name “palestine” on that absolutely crucial piece of a tiny part of a bit on land in all Earth called Israel because all their lands surrounding Israel is not enough.

Further he/she said, “Israel has allowed the PA to basically shoulder the dirty work of trying to control a dispossessed and disorganized population. Obviously the Palestinians are way less impressed with job Israel is doing of over seeing their best interests, then some in Israel feel they are. To hear some Israeli talk about the thing, you'd think the Palestinians ought to be sending thank-you notes. The basic of this mess will not change, with or without Arafat. That is just wishful thinking. The basics are Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, and all of those things need to be attended to. There is going to be a state of Palestine, and with all of the risk involved, Israel has to accept that. If, after that state is created, the nutcases on the Islamic side keep insisting that Israel has to go, then I truly believe the all important opinion of other democracies may shift, for Israel and against the militants...

Before the terrorism worsened Israel had many gainfully employed “palestinians” in their midst, “palestinians” enjoyed as much freedom as they allowed themselves to have. If they feel dispossessed and disorganized there’s a simple solution, that is to accept the rightful return of Israel and live in peace, or leave to their homelands which surround Israel. If “palestinians” dislike their settlements in Israel then they should feel more comfortable in their own homelands.

NewsGuy

02-08-2002, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by JustSad

Israel treats the Palestinians as slaves. They have been in refugee camps controlled by the Israeli army for decades now. These camps have become cities now, and they are still virtual prisoners...

...

Palestian women in labour are refused at army roadblocks, forcing them to give labour on the street, watched by Israeli soldiers who laugh in their face. Their babies dying because they get no care.

Is this what has become of our beloved Israel and it's ideals?

To begin, I highly doubt that Israel has ever been beloved to you.

As for the rest, it is ridiculous to say that the Palestinians are treated as slaves because:

1. The Palestinains have the right to choose their own government.

2. The Palestinians control their own cities, including legislature, educational system, and all other municipal services.

3. The Palestinians control their own banking system and public finances.

4. The Palestinians have their own well armed and well trained police force.

5. The Palestinians have representation at the UN.

6. The Palestinians have been offered their own second Palestinian independent state.

As to your second point, where did you dig up that bunch of Arab lies concerning the Israeli soldiers laughing at Palestinian women? What exactly is your source for this nonesense?

The reason that Palestinian ambulances are being stopped at checkpoints is that armed suicide bombers and wanted terrorism leaders are being transported in these ambulances, including the female Palestinian suicide bomber who was a paramedic smuggled into Israel in a Red Crescent ambulance.

McSceptic

02-11-2002, 04:59 AM

From one of the human rights groups. Not very pretty...

'Ala Hamdan 'Abd al-'Aziz Ahmad, age 10, from as-Sawiya, Nablus district. She died when her appendix burst after IDF soldiers prevented her father from taking her to a hospital in Nablus.

16 October 2000

Na'im 'Attallah a-'Abd Ahmad Huas, age 27, from a-Zawiya, Salfit district, kidney patient. She died after IDF soldiers prevented her from obtaining dialysis treatment at a hospital in Nablus.

16 October 2000

Masiona Hussein, age 60, from al-Jiftliq, Jericho district, diabetes patient. She died after being forced to travel to the hospital along treacherous paths because of the physical roadblocks that the IDF placed on the main roadways.

5 January 2001

Taysir Wahdan, age 40, from Rantis, Ramallah district, suffered a stroke. He died while en route to Shuqba, Ramallah district, along treacherous paths.

7 January 2001

Al-'Obeisi infant girl, from Beit Dajan, Nablus district. She died at birth at home after the IDF prohibited her mother from leaving the village to go to the hospital.

23 January 2001

'Aisha Naji Muhammad Nasser, age 28, from al-Janiya, Ramallah district. She became ill a month after giving birth by Caesarian section. She was delayed some 45 minutes at a checkpoint on her way to the hospital and died en route.

27 January 2001

Hasneh Suliman Draghmeh, age 66, from a-Luban, Nablus district, suffered from shortness of breath. She was delayed 15 minutes at the Hawareh checkpoint, Nablus district, travelled along a circuitous route, and died en route to the hospital.

5 February 2001

Khadra Raji Mustafa Shtiwi, age 65, from Qadum, Nablus district, felt ill and was unable to move her left hand. Soldiers at the checkpoint between Dir Sheref and Nablus did not allow her to cross. She was taken along a circuitous route for two hours. She died at the hospital.

16 February 2001

'Abd a-Rahman Mahmoud Abu-Jam'a, age 79, from Beit Lid, Tulkarm district, suffered from chest pains. He was delayed for an hour at the Tulkarm checkpoint. When he reached the hospital, a physician stated that he had died 30 minutes before arrival.

25 February 2001

Maryam As'ad 'Abd a-Razeq Hanani, from Beit Furik, Nablus district, felt ill. She was delayed at the checkpoint between Beit Furik and Beit Dajan. Taken along side roads, she was dead when she arrived at a health clinic in Salim, Nablus district.

13 March 2001

Na'im 'Abd Ahmad Qasqus Bani Jam'a, age 40, from 'Aqraba, Nablus district, felt ill. Delayed at a checkpoint on the road between Hawareh and Nablus, he was taken along side roads. It took some three hours to reach the hospital, where he was dead on arrival.

14 March 2001

'Amira Nasser Abu Sif, age 48, from Faqqu'a, Jenin district, diabetes patient. She was delayed for four hours at the Jalameh checkpoint, in Jenin district.

23 March 2001

Israa Barkat Sallem Ahmad, age 11, from a-Sawiya, Nablus district, suffered from brain birth defect. She lost consciousness, and was delayed at the checkpoint near Hawareh, Nablus district, for an hour. After being allowed to pass, she died on the way to the hospital.

2 July 2001

Maryam Ibrahim a-Tamimi, age 61, from a-Nabi Salih, Ramallah district, apparently suffered a stroke. Taken to the hospital in Ramallah, she was delayed at the checkpoints on the an-Nabi-Salih - Ramallah route.

23 August 2001

'Abdullah 'Atatreh, age 3, from a-Tarem, Jenin district, fell into a water container and lost consciousness. Delayed at checkpoint on his way to the medical clinic in Yab'ad, Jenin district, he was taken to Yab'ad along side roads. He was dead on arrival at the clinic.

23 September 2001

Safdi infant, from 'Urif, Nablus district. Stillborn, after his mother, in her ninth month of pregnancy, was delayed at a checkpoint for five hours.

6 October 2001

Sabri Amin Mahmud 'Abd al-Qader, age 40, from a-Ras, Tulkarm district, kidney patient. He required dialysis treatment three times a week. He was delayed at a checkpoint on way to hospital in Tulkarm. After reaching Tulkarm, he died while walking to the hospital

24 October 2001

Abed Rabo's newborn, from Al Walaja, Bethlehem District. The mother, Fatma 'Abed Rabo, about to give birth, was detained by IDF soldiers at a checkpoint. The newborn was in need of urgent medical treatment and died a few hours later.

13 November 2001

Mouhammad Kheiri Zaban, age 50, from Kafr Rumman, Tulkarm district, kidney patient. On his way to dialysis treatment at the hospital in Nablus, soldiers blocked his passage near the Kedumim settlement, Tulkarm district.

11 December 2001

Sa'id's newborn, from Al-Yamun, Jenin District. Stillborn due to oxygin shortage. IDF soldiers detained the woman, Amneh Mahmoud 'Awad Sa'id, who was in labor, at the entrance to Jenin.

13 December 2001

'Alia Hassan Saleh, age 48, from 'Asira al-Qibliya, Nablus district, suffered a heart attack. Soldiers at the Hawareh checkpoint, Nablus district, prevented his being taken to the hospital.

21 January 2001

Ra'ed Sabri Ibrahim Sruji, from Tulkarm refugee camp, age 46, diabetes patient suffering from kidney failure. Sruji was on his way to the hospital in Nablus when the ambulance he was in was detained at the Deir Sharaf checkpoint for three hours.

NewsGuy

02-11-2002, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by McSceptic
From one of the human rights groups. Not very pretty...

Which one exactly of the "human rights" groups? Hizbullah? Hamas?

If there is a problem in transporting sick Palestinians in ambulances, then the Palestinian population needs to protest to the terrorists groups that smuggling suicide bombers and terrorists leaders in Red Crescent ambulances is causing the Israelis to have to search each Arab ambulance.

I wonder why I have never seen such a protest, nor have I see any of these so-called human rights groups EVER put the blame on the Palestinian terrorists for the misery they cause to their own people.

I can also produce a long list of all the Israelis murdered and wounded by the Arab suicide bombers who were transported in Red Crescent ambulances. In the Jerusalem suicide bombing done by the female Arab mass murderer there is a list of 150 Israelis that I can list for you.

That's why you'll excuse me if I am not so sympathetic to the
Palestinians having ambulance problems. These Arab ambulances are being used as suicide bomber limousine services all too often.