ISRAEL TO JOIN EU good or bad?

[Israelite-Tribe]

Israel wants membership in the EU... an organisation that basically doesn't like it much but some are actually saying Israel could be a good member... Who thinks it's good here and debate on it... I think it's good for the economy but bad because once again when we will adapt and rely on the EU we will be forced to make concessions as with the U.S but since the EU hates us more we will have to really make them...

[danholo]

Oy vey, what a joke. I found this news amusing when I read about it on Ha'aretz.

Of course it would have some benefits but the EU wouldn't even consider it as long as Israel is an occupying power.
In a way Israel is an outcast from everything. It won't be accepted in a million years into the Arab league and since it isn't in any way physically apart of Europe, I don't know how this "request" would be responded to.

[Isiah 2:4]

Maybe it will strengthen ties with the EU. It could be a positive thing, and actually encourage more solidarity and compassion for Israel.

I think that Israel needs partnership with other Political forces other than the US to shake of its image as the 51st state etc..

However i am involved in a European Youth Parliament, and am studying its functions and governing power. The debates at Brussels are mainly about waste disposal or Common Agricultural Policy. Israel doesnt need to be told how to farm, and im not sure the refuse collection is too bad either...heheh

[Mediocrates]

Israel in the EU is like beef cattle joining the slaughterhouse workers union....

[danholo]

I agree. Brussels is full of anti-Semites. They would never want a Jew on the premises - lest a representative of something Jewish!

[Gilgamesh]

The intersting part, is not the idea that israel should join the EU, which I consider to be a joke, but the motivation for such initiative.

The European, either strait forward, or in a hidden psyschological level, consider Zionism as a testemony for their own barbarism.
There very exisatce of a free Zionist, Jewish nation state, in Euroepean mind, is a proof for European ever lasting moral stain.

As a Zionist, I consider Zionism as a persue of our NATURAL rights, a movement to reclaim Jewish national rights, similar to anybody elses national rights. Surviving Anti semetism is a simple result of these national rights: self defense.

Euorpean want, our forgiveness, they need our forgiveness so they can call themselves moraly superior and culturaly advance then any body else. Jews are the one who may restore Europe part of its self asteam, with out hanging on slef illustions about one self.

The achive that, Jews must reasimilate with in Europe. Anciant Jewish communities, that the European wiped out, must be restored and the hate of many Israelis to the European must be cooled.

It will be done only if Israel is to stop existing as an independent state, and relay the security of her population on the good will of the very same people who murdered millions of our brothers and the decsendents of the british mandate that allowed several Arab pogroms and massacres of Jews.

[ibrodsky]

First, I would be concerned that if the Europeans go for this it will be in order to put even more pressure on Israel.

Second, I would strongly advise Israel not to join the trade protectionist EU. The EU bureaucrats are scoundrels and are headed towards a trade war with the U.S.

It's tempting to fantasize that if Israel joined the EU the EU would guarantee Israel's survival. More realistically, they would simply be asked to choose between Israel and oil.

[Evgeny]

leftist machines will infest Israel with even more arabs and plus add millions of Africans. Stay far away from the EU israel. Look at Denmark, Germany, or Belgium. They have lost their national identity becasue of the brainwashing of the left and the flood of africans, turks, and arabs. This will soon happen to Ukraine, Latvia, Rominia, Moldovia, Estonia. Belarus should thank god they have Lushenko becasue he will never sell out to the EU. The only way for small eastorn european nations to survive is to merge with Russia. Israel should find new allies(india, China, maybe Russia). America will abandon Israel once populer opionion swings twords the arabs.

[Gilgamesh]

Evgeny,

First, I've NO problem with Africans Indians Turks, or Asians. They are all good people in general, who believe in: "live and let live". The believe in rule of law, business, education and hard work. Our problem, unless you haven't heard, is that we are ALREADY flooded with Arabs of the wrong kind.

However, since you hate Africans so much... enjoy your life in Europe.

Europeans are those who destroy Europe and making in uninhabitable: by their hate and racism.

As for alliance with Russia... ROFL!!!
Not in a gazillion years! Only the Germans we hate more!

[Evgeny]

should have made myself clearer. in africans i mean Libyans, Algerians, tunisians. Most Sub-saharan africans who came to SU came for eduction. Have to respect them for that. Now why would you hate Russia or germany. For things that happneded decades or centuries ago? isnt that a little xenophobic or dare i say racist on your part. people should not be held responsible for there ancestors. really doesnt matter. Russia does not need israel. Its your problem if you dont want to cooperate.

[tandem]

the EU is full of left wing liberals. this close relationship will never work out. yes, israel will have some economic benefits, but other than that, israel will be forced to adhere to a strict and stupid code of "conduct". it will never be allowed to retaliate the way it's doing right now against arab terrorism. besides, like danholo said, israel is not geographically a part of europe. given the fact that there's no lost love for the jews in europe and the rise of islamic fundamentalism over there, the europeans will never accept israel into the EU and i hope israel will not ask to join in. israel will just have to look out for itself

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by Evgeny
isnt that a little xenophobic or dare i say racist on your part.

Evgeny, after what you wrote earlier in this thread, your allegations of racism are especially laughable.

As "For things that happened decades or centuries ago", don't expect to get away so easily. Perhaps you wish to forget, but we won't. The word "pogrom" came from Russian and expresses Russian idea of "the friendship of the peoples". Even today (as ever), the Russian MID sucks up to the Arabs against Israel.

Privet Lukashenko.

[RonE]

You can rest assured of one thing: if Israel does join the EU, it will be on Europe's terms, and they will be in a position to apply much more pressure on Israel than is applied today. In fact, that would probably be the main interest of the EU for accepting Israel as a member.

Ironically, by this logic, it would be in Europe's greater interest, more so than Israel's, for Israel to join the EU. The Europeans don't have to worry about hordes of new immigrants invading their shores, taking their jobs etc, as Israel's population is negligebile in terms of numbers compared to most other European countries and countries in the region. Second, most Israelis probably wouldn't want to live in Europe anyway, partially because of what has happened in the past as part of a cummulative historical effect, and mainly because of the view many Europeans hold today of Israel and the growing number of Arabs living there. Plus, to top it all off, the EU wouldn't have to spend too much of its revenues on Israel as they have bigger fish to fry.

So, any way you look at it, it is a win-win situation for Europe to have Israel join as an EU member, and a lose-lose situation for Israel.
But there is no need to worry- the prospect of Israel joining the EU is just about as realistic as the prospect of Arafat cracking down on militant terrorist organizations.... :D

[Mediocrates]

The day that it became a serious political discussion in France to include Israel in the EU would be the day that every road intersection in France would have piles of burning tires. I can't imagine anything that would stir up larger mass protests, riots, firebombings.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
The day that it became a serious political discussion in France to include Israel in the EU would be the day that every road intersection in France would have piles of burning tires. I can't imagine anything that would stir up larger mass protests, riots, firebombings. Right now the big cultural issue with us (I mean the EU) is to determine wether Turkey can be in the part of the European Union.


The problem of Turkey is interesting so i'll try to explain it before widening the analysis to Israel.

The discussion wether Turkey can be in the part of the European Union is not easy since many europeans, me including, find it hard to accept this country. His tradition and culture is not christian, humans rights are not respected and the problem with the kurds is enormous. Add to this a population of 67M growing very rapidly, it could be the biggest EU country in 20 years. One more problem is to determine the frontiers of Europe, she has to stop somewhere (maybe it should have already stopped before including britain :D ).


A very delicate problem indeed. On the other hand,
1/ the turks, especially the elite are very keen to enter and taking them in would certainly mean the modernists would keep the upper hand in the country and of course we wish to encourage this.
2/ Turkey is quite successful economically and quite democratic (as they did show refusing the US-imposed war on Iraq - europeans were quite impressed by that - such an ability to resist would have been unthinkable with their former militaristic gvt). Fast develloping Turkey would certainly bring a strong growth into the EU (it does already there are lots of exchanges).
3/ The cultural gap could be overcome. Turkey is not a religious country (lay ?). Less like the US and more like France. No 'god bless us' and that kind of middle ages cr*p (sorry it's me, I just can't help) .


about Israel now...

1/ it would definitely mean recognition and a better degree of protection to israel if we accept her as one of us. Attacking one of us is attacking us all. Europe is not just a temporary alliance it is a union of states (in a way a bit like the "united states of america", one far away day we will probably decide to become the "united states of Europe")

2/ the Irish miracle you referred to (as well as for Portugal, East Germany) came from the EU investing massively for developpement. Now the EU is doing just this for Poland, Czeckoslovakia with a long waiting list.... Israel is quite rich anyway.

3/ There is no real big cultural gap with Israel. Despite the weirdos on this forum we have quite the same values. Europe's tradition is in fact jewish-christian! (judéo-chrétienne is the correct expression)



of course we are light years away from discussing the integration of Israel into the EU. No way a country at war is integrated.



I also think that if Israel become part of the EU, Palestine should be integrated at the very same time. That would mean accessing quickly a high level of development for her and a definitive, irreversible peace. Don't forget the founding goal of Europe is to reconcile ennemies and make war meaningless.



Anyway I'm not sure the integration of Israel will be really discussed before we all here die.

.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by yehudi

I also think that if Israel become part of the EU, Palestine should be integrated at the very same time. That would mean accessing quickly a high level of development for her and a definitive, irreversible peace. Don't forget the founding goal of Europe is to reconcile ennemies and make war meaningless.


France wants a strong military in Europe to offset America's military. What better way than to incorporate Israel in the EU. There is definitely an underlying reason for the European Parliament to favor such a move and it is not love for Israel and Jews. If the Palestinians do not change their leadership, then Syria, Libya and Iran should be also be candidates at the same time that the Palestinians are considered.

Shabbat Shalom

[Mediocrates]

So basically you want all the Turkish money, affluence and educated people to be citizens of Europe-at-large and you don't want all those poor identifiably muslim people.

Sounds vaguely racist - anyone can be "European" as long as they don't exhibit any unique ethnicity or religion. At any rate, Israel in the EU is a silly notion. Might as well make them honorary Rastafarians too.

Now on to Israel

1/ what is 'recognition' worth? any more of your recognition and we can simply call it Palestine.

2/ so you mean I guess that in THIS case there is no need for Europe to bother with investing or helping Israel in any way.

3/ yeah judeo-christian, thanks for the blessing - but we've seen your judeo-christian ethic already, thanks.


I can imagine the dancing in the streets of Paris when Israel is an EU state.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Revkha
France wants a strong military in Europe to offset America's military. What better way than to incorporate Israel in the EU. No Europe is simply not about developping a strong military. Europe is about making a strong military meaningless. In the troubled times we live, a common military might prove useful, though.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by yehudi
No Europe is simply not about developping a strong military. Europe is about making a strong military meaningless. In the troubled times we live, a common military might prove useful, though.

We strive for an ideal world, but alas, out of the woodwork comes a termite. It is amazing the damage that a minuscule termite can do and the costs incurred to repair the damage.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Mediocrates So basically you want all the Turkish money, affluence and educated people to be citizens of Europe-at-large and you don't want all those poor identifiably muslim people. Not a problem of poverty, since europe IS taking in poor countries just now. More about having enough shared cultural values so that we can set common goals.




Originally posted by Mediocrates
At any rate, Israel in the EU is a silly notion. I didn't start the thread. It's more a 'what if'. But I certainly hope I'll leave to see the notion become a real possibility.





Originally posted by Mediocrates
1/ what is 'recognition' worth? any more of your recognition and we can simply call it Palestine.

2/ so you mean I guess that in THIS case there is no need for Europe to bother with investing or helping Israel in any way.

3/ yeah judeo-christian, thanks for the blessing - but we've seen your judeo-christian ethic already, thanks.

1/ and 3/ I do not see your point. Just say 'no' and save us time. It is unthinkable and meaningless to integrate any nation into Europe against her own free will.
2/ rich countries wished to be integrated into europe too, they are other, higher, motivations that just 'developping on the fast lane'.


but as I said it is very unlikely that Israel will reach a level when she will indeed whish to be part of Europe. The founding principles of Europe are simply completely alien to her today and very far from her current preocupations.

.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
His tradition and culture is not christian

The exact reason why Israel will probably never be joined to global entity for Europe or the ME.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
The exact reason why Israel will probably never be joined to global entity for Europe or the ME. Well never say never.... For me some jews (the sepharim of course) are infinitely much closer to ME arabs as I am. As a matter of fact they simply belong to this region, no doubt about that.

It's sometimes even hard for me to understand why you spend you time fighting one another (just a quip sorry)

.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
The exact reason why Israel will probably never be joined to global entity for Europe or the ME. Israel is more than 'a jewish state'. If I remember well, it's 20% arab in population and hosts many other religions.

The time will come when Israel defines herself as something else that "jewish-only" and change her constitution to give more room to minorities

.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]Well never say never.... For me some jews (the sepharim of course) are infinitely much closer to ME arabs as I am. As a matter of fact they simply belong to this region, no doubt about that.

Maybe Sepharadim have the skin of Arabs... but sepharadim are more connected to Ashkenazi Jews than to Arabs. Jews belong to Israel until you can prove otherwise.


It's sometimes even hard for me to understand why you spend you time fighting one another (just a quip sorry)

I find it so hard to understand why Catholics and Protestants fight so much. Im glad we arent that bad.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]Israel is more than 'a jewish state'. If I remember well, it's 20% arab in population and hosts many other religions.

The time will come when Israel defines herself as something else that "jewish-only" and change her constitution to give more room to minorities


When Europe stops thinking of themselves as a "christian" union... then can Israel, Turkey etc etc be implemented without serious problems.

When the French stop viewing themselves as "christian" state, then they can stop anti-semitism and the rift between Muslims in France.

2 can play at that game yehudi

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
First, I would be concerned that if the Europeans go for this it will be in order to put even more pressure on Israel.

Second, I would strongly advise Israel not to join the trade protectionist EU. The EU bureaucrats are scoundrels and are headed towards a trade war with the U.S.

It's tempting to fantasize that if Israel joined the EU the EU would guarantee Israel's survival. More realistically, they would simply be asked to choose between Israel and oil.

I totally agree. Israel should stay well clear of Europe for the meantime. Instead we should focus our efforts on India and Turkey, and try and develop new relations in areas such as South America and Africa. At the moment I can see Europe and the ME depending on each other. This means Israel cannot go into Europe until the ME accepts Israels right to exist and defend herself. Better stick to "Eurovision song contests" and "European football tournaments" rather than politics.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
When Europe stops thinking of themselves as a "christian" union... hehe you score .... Israel, five points (talking about Eurovision..)


"rift between Muslims in France" waddya mean ?

[Evgeny]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
When Europe stops thinking of themselves as a "christian" union... then can Israel, Turkey etc etc be implemented without serious problems.

When the French stop viewing themselves as "christian" state, then they can stop anti-semitism and the rift between Muslims in France.

2 can play at that game yehudi

Last time i checked the EU was a union of Christian Countires, not the Holy Roman Empire. Also France is a Christain State, always has,and for the time being is still more Christain then muslim. why should they change them slefs for anybody else. If minorities dont like it then they always can go back to thier own country.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
At the moment I can see Europe and the ME depending on each other. The whole world depends on the ME for oil.

Why did you think the US took over Iraq anyway... to liberate the iraqis or to liberate the oil wells? Or do you prefer to liberate the oil wells "from the grasp of terrorism"?

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Evgeny
Last time i checked the EU was a union of Christian Countires, not the Holy Roman Empire. Also France is a Christain State, always has,and for the time being is still more Christain then muslim. why should they change them slefs for anybody else. If minorities dont like it then they always can go back to thier own country.

France may think of itself as a Christian state but the churches are empty. The only things full are the mosques.

[Mediocrates]

Hey so what's that about France considering rolling back that 1909 law so that they can provide state funding to mosques?

yehudi? Any word on that? I read it in some mainstream newspaper about a month ago.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Hey so what's that about France considering rolling back that 1909 law so that they can provide state funding to mosques?

yehudi? Any word on that? mm we're getting away from the thread topic, but I researched some date on that for you medio.


- Elections have been held in april under the supervision of the ministère de l'intérieur to organize islam in France. Before the only interlocutor was the Mosquée de Paris which was rumored not to be really representative of french muslems.

- here is now a representative organization of muslims in France. called "Conseil français du culte musulman". The bureau was elected on may 4.

- Of course all french of arab origin are not muslims. There are other non religious representative organizations. As in the rest of Europe, there is probably the very same drop in religious practice with muslems as with christians.

- note that just after the election (and even in the very tense situation we had). The newly elected president of the "Conseil français du culte musulman" met with Nissim Zvili who is Israël ambassador in France

.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Revkha
France may think of itself as a Christian state You completely miss the point.

The french state recognize religion, but is totally non-religious. Unlike the US who are full of religious zealots using God to justify killing people in their wars and repeating "god bless America" all the time.

Heard about Bastille day or the french revolution?



For us religion and governement must not mix. A guy like Bush who is claiming to have 'guidance by god' belongs to the very same category as Ben Laden.

.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
hehe you score .... Israel, five points (talking about Eurovision..)


"rift between Muslims in France" waddya mean ?

Yehudi do you get my points? I know that France couldnt care less about Christianity in your politics. So before you go criticsing Israel for being a Jewish state intent on oppressing non-Jews... think. I cant help to wonder however... if Israel and Turkey were states governed by Christians they probably would have joined into Europe a long time ago.

What I mean about the rift between muslims in France is the issue of asylum seekers (where its a big problem in all western europe). I know you are going to blabber on that this is nothing to do with religion but try to think how easy this issue would be solved if these asylum seekers were Christians rather then Muslims.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by Evgeny
Last time i checked the EU was a union of Christian Countires, not the Holy Roman Empire. Also France is a Christain State, always has,and for the time being is still more Christain then muslim. why should they change them slefs for anybody else. If minorities dont like it then they always can go back to thier own country.

A typical European attitude.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]You completely miss the point.

The french state recognize religion, but is totally non-religious. Unlike the US who are full of religious zealots using God to justify killing people in their wars and repeating "god bless America" all the time.

A typical French attitude.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by yehudi

The french state recognize religion, but is totally non-religious. Unlike the US who are full of religious zealots using God to justify killing people in their wars and repeating "god bless America" all the time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A typical French attitude. European attitude actually. For me limiting God to the personal sphere is a requirement for a modern nation.

"War in the name of god" or "Politics in the name of god" is a middle-ages practice.




Originally posted by Am Yisrael
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Evgeny
(…) If minorities dont like it then they always can go back to thier own country.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A typical European attitude. Wrong. The respect of minorities is one of the basic principles of Europe. It is one of the reason Turkey can't get it actually.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
Yehudi do you get my points? I know that France couldnt care less about Christianity in your politics. Wrong. Not dead wrong, but wrong.





Originally posted by Am Yisrael
What I mean about the rift between muslims in France is the issue of asylum seekers (where its a big problem in all western europe). I know you are going to blabber on that this is nothing to do with religion but try to think how easy this issue would be solved if these asylum seekers were Christians rather then Muslims. I feel quite concerned with the question of asylum seekers and I have been acting to improve it for a while.

When I try to see your point, religion seem pretty irrelevant there, but I guess I should not disturb you with my "blabbing" on this topic. Anyway your point is unclear

.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]European attitude actually. For me limiting God to the personal sphere is a requirement for a modern nation.

"War in the name of god" or "Politics in the name of god" is a middle-ages practice.

Well then you can shove your attitude about Israel where the sun dont shine unless ofcourse you think that Israel wages war in the name of G-d.


Wrong. The respect of minorities is one of the basic principles of Europe. It is one of the reason Turkey can't get it actually.

But some slobby fascist or communist eastern European countries can for some reason.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
Wrong. Not dead wrong, but wrong.

First your saying that European countries havent implemented religion in politics, and now your saying that they have?? make up your mind!!


I feel quite concerned with the question of asylum seekers and I have been acting to improve it for a while.

When I try to see your point, religion seem pretty irrelevant there, but I guess I should not disturb you with my "blabbing" on this topic. Anyway your point is unclear


Your ignorance is insulting. Asylum seekers in the past that have been Christian have managed to EASILY fit into the new society of Western Europe. I have known eastern European Christians adapt to Western life in ~ 2 months, whereas it takes an albanian Muslim ~ 2 years.

[yehudi]

Haaretz editorial on the question of Israel and Europe :

Nothing Personal / Europa-bound

By Thomas O'Dwyer


When faced with an incompetent, corrupt, mendacious, war-mongering government of timeservers and self-servers, it's hard to think of any policy it might come up with that might merit a nod of approval. But lo, on Tuesday up speaks Silvan Shalom - the foreign minister without the portfolio who lives in the Prime Minister's Office - and announces that Israel might apply to join the European Union.

It was neither big news nor even new news - in our newspaper it merited only an item in the unread wasteland beside page two ads - and was hedged in with possible maybes. "Shalom said he is not excluding that this government will ask for full membership in the EU," said Marco Pannella, an Italian member of the European Parliament.

Shalom's minions confirmed the quote: "In principle, the minister thinks a possibility exists for Israel to join the EU since Israel and Europe share similar economies and democratic values." But the official added, "It doesn't mean he is preparing the dossier for applying tomorrow." Well, of course not, dear - did any ministry here ever prepare anything for tomorrow?

It may still be an eccentric view, but I have always written that Israel belongs in Europe, culturally, economically and practically. One can go further and suggest membership in Europe offers the state the best long-term guarantee of continued existence, and a non-militaristic way to confound its remaining enemies. Who would dare to attack a European Union country?

It offers huge economic benefits that would more than compensate for American handouts, and a whole stack of essential EU legislation would stabilize and underpin the increasingly shaky pillars of democracy here.

Israelis who are miffed at the EU's support for Palestinian independence, are always sniffing that they want nothing to do with the EU, yet enthusiastically leap into anything that is prefixed with "euro," whether it be a cheesy song contest or out-of-its-league sporting events. And in 1996, Israel became the first ever non-European country to join a lucrative five-year EU program for technical research and development under a scientific cooperation agreement that was signed with great ceremony in Brussels.

(..)

However, of all people, the Iranians pounced on Shalom's statement. IRNA, the national news agency, citing both Silvan and Haaretz, quickly reassured its readers that Israeli EU membership was "highly unlikely in the foreseeable future." Quoting some obscure EU observer, IRNA said: "The EU requires would-be members to have good relations with their neighbors. This would mean that Israel must dramatically improve its relations with [its neighbors], most crucially Palestine. Other criteria demand candidates respect minorities and human rights that would include rejecting state- sponsored extra-judicial killings."

A visitor from another planet could be forgiven for thinking the United States must be Israel's next-door neighbor and that Europe must be far, far away across the Atlantic, a place of which we know little and care less. Yet Paris and London are the number one destinations for Israeli tourists and the EU is the country's biggest trading partner by far. The euro has been catching up with the dollar as Israelis' favorite foreign investment currency.

Israel is closer to Europe and naturally belongs in the European bloc. All those nations are diverse in culture, languages and economies - and Israel would fit right in alongside the new candidates. U.S. Senator Jesse Helms once said, "The European Union couldn't organize its way out of a wet paper bag." Not so - it's really President George Bush's vision of a Middle East common market, including Israel, that is the wet paper bag no economist will ever try to organize.

The Arab states may have a common language, religion and culture from Morocco to Iraq, but as one economic analyst said: "They don't trade with one another - mostly they scarcely speak to one another. Israel is not a natural belonger in the Middle East. Politics aside, few Arab imports would suit us, few of our exports are suitable for them. It is actually through membership in the EU that Israel would truly find its place as a trading partner with the Arab world."

On a former visit to the EU Commission headquarters in Brussels, a commission official told me that the union's involvement with Israel "is a dense network of long-standing and outstanding relations between the two sides." That jibes ill with the negative slurs Israelis cast at Brussels when they hear some opinion they don't like - one journalist even called the EU a "source of political infection" that Israel should avoid.

South of the Mediterranean median line there are only two democracies, Cyprus and Israel, so a European could be forgiven for wondering why bother with the fractious and uncooperative Mediterranean Middle East at all - squabbling Greeks and Turks, snarling Israelis and Palestinians, Arab dictators, medieval economies and primitive social mores.

However, Israel's divided neighbor Cyprus is well on the way to full EU membership, and this movement alone has already seen the 30-year-old border between Greeks and Turks thrown open in recent weeks. Even without a political settlement, there is no way both sides of a divided nation can fail to benefit politically and economically from membership of the union - just as divided Ireland did when it joined more than 40 years ago, despite the interim violence in the north.

European self-interest is as good a motive as any for bothering with Euro-Med - it has the merit of being honest. "The EU partnership aims toward a Euro-Med charter for peace and stability and on a range of other practical measures," an official said at the last Euro-Med conference.

There is agreement to establish a disaster-management network across the Mediterranean ... Experts discuss issues such as drugs, terrorism, organized crime, social affairs, cultural heritage, and many youth exchange programs. But in Crete, no doubt, neurotic Arabs will again complain about Israel, paranoid Israelis will complain about Israel-bashing - maybe not much of a Euro vision thing, but better than war, war.

Emma Bonino, the EU parliamentarian and leader of the Italian Radical Party, has for long campaigned for Israel to join the EU. "I think it's important that we not see Europe anymore as a geographic, Christian club," she said in a recent interview. "The turning point was when the EU, even theoretically, was open to Turkey. Europe is a political project. The criterion to join the EU was set by the European Council in Copenhagen, and includes parliamentary democracy, a certain standard in human rights and so forth." For now, in her view, Copenhagen excludes any Arab countries.

"But unfortunately and not by chance," she said, "the Israeli leadership does not want to even hear about this issue, because one way or another they know that Europe is also a discipline, and that if Israel joined the EU, it would be Europe negotiating with the Arab world." Over to you, Silvan.


(extract) http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=296113

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by yehudi
Haaretz editorial on the question of Israel and Europe :

Nothing Personal / Europa-bound

By Thomas O'Dwyer

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=296113

You said "Ha'aretz" you said it all. Ha'aretz people are a bunch of fringe lefties, completly out of touch with reality. Nobody takes Ha'aretz serioucly these days in Israel.

For us, Israelis, Ha'aretz is nothing but a collections of wirdows, hired by the Europeans as mouth pieces. It is known to become Anti Zionist papers in the last few years. Many of the stars writers either don't talk politics or they were kicked and expeled to other papers (mostly Ma'ariv) for not having strong enough anti zionist opinions.

Many of their writers, hang on to their job only through their political connections. They earn their money from side shows in Europe, where they blacken and smear Israel's face, in every possible occasions.

With self hating money loving greedy people like Yehudi Manuchin, Noam Chomsky and Uri Avinery, and a paper like Ha'aretz, no one should ever wonder why Europe is Anti semetic.
For the right sum of money, Israel is ideological supermarket. Pick one and pay for on exit. I'm sure, for the right sum, you can find a lunatic "history" professor or other kind of "intelectual" who will deny the holocust for you, even if the denayer himself is a death camp survivor. It's all about money.

Never consider Ha'aretz to be a main stream or a represantative of anything israeli, it just an European echo machine. Europeans put a euro coine the the slut, and a European gets to hear his own anti zionist opinions amplyfied, only with Jewish-Israeli kosher mark. "How can I be anti semetic, Ha'aretz / Chomsky / Avinery all say the same, and THEY ARE Jewish themselves!!!".
so argue each and every anti semetic. A friend showed me an anti semetic pro Natzi web site, where they quote Ha'aretz and other "Israelis", as a proof, as if its a "self admition" of Jews in their own "nature", a "fact" that possibley supports any of their own bizzar conspiracy Natzist pro Arabist ideology.

There is not one time, that I see Ha'aretz paper stand, or a head line, and I don't wish and prey to their press house to be burend to the ground, or the Shin Beith will announce the arrest of some of the Ha'aretz ultra left / communist writers on allegation of treason, for their terroristic and / or Euoroepan espionage connections.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by yehudi
You completely miss the point.

Unlike the US who are full of religious zealots using God to justify killing people in their wars


Yehudi - I believe there is a typo in your post. Shouldn't it read "Saudis" instead of "US."

[Isiah 2:4]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by yehudi
You completely miss the point.

Unlike the US who are full of religious zealots using God to justify killing people in their wars


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"War in the name of god" or "Politics in the name of god" is a middle-ages practice.

Hes right you know. You have to admit it. You my not agree with his(Yehudi) other politics.

Bush is, and well known to be, A FundaMENTALIST and a crusader.
All of his speeches are littered with 'Good' against 'Evil' rhetoric in the vein of Christian ideology and end with 'G-d bless America'.

http://www.progressive.org/feb03/comm0203.html

America's Leading Grassroots Organization Defending Our Godly Heritage - From http://www.cc.org/

http://www.cc.org/aboutcca/index.html


WTF???? :eek:

[yoyo]

Originally posted by yehudi
Turkey is quite democratic...The cultural gap could be overcome. Turkey is not a religious country (lay ?). Less like the US and more like France. No 'god bless us' and that kind of middle ages cr*p (sorry it's me, I just can't help) .


Heuh, sorry... I think you have that wrong. Turkey is indeed a religious Islamic country. The difference between Turkey and the arabs is that in Turkey it is the army that is the "Guarantor of the constitution", thus when muslims do what they normally when they got access to "democracy" - that is vote for the islamist - the army blocks any move toward a Sharia state.

The problem now is that, in order to be in Europe, Turkey needs to be a total civilian democracy (thus getting rid of the Army Guarantee). By doing so they will remove the only reason why Turkey is not Algeria. I agree with Giscard "Europe is a Judeo-Christian club - FULL STOP"


Originally posted by yehudi
of course we are light years away from discussing the integration of Israel into the EU. No way a country at war is integrated.

No way a Europe that has failed and is still failing to protect Jews to sell them to the strongest barbarian is worth having Israel in. Beside, give it 20 years and Europe will be irreversibly islamize and to my great pain, France will be the first. By refusing to confront the Tchador (Islamic Veil) and the outspoken antisemitism of the maghrebin-muslim community they have opened the door to the humiliation of the Republic - so they always did!

[Revkha]

Originally posted by yoyo
Beside, give it 20 years and Europe will be irreversibly islamize and to my great pain, France will be the first. By refusing to confront the Tchador (Islamic Veil) and the outspoken antisemitism of the maghrebin-muslim community they have opened the door to the humiliation of the Republic - so they always did!

Europe suffers from the ostrich complex.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by Revkha
Europe suffers from the ostrich complex.

Doubled with the Stokholm Syndrome (http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/stockholm.html)

[Bharat Rakshak]

Israel's membership into the EU will certainly help Israel. It will greatly improve Israel's economy( EU is an economic power) and strenghten it's global position(Europe has a very strong global position and image) and help Israel against the Arabs( Arabs cannot afford to worsen it's relation with the EU).
But Israel is not likely to get membership in the EU since israel lies in Asia and there are many opposers of Israel in the Eu.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Bharat Rakshak
Israel's membership into the EU will certainly help Israel. It will greatly improve Israel's economy( EU is an economic power) and strenghten it's global position(Europe has a very strong global position and image) and help Israel against the Arabs( Arabs cannot afford to worsen it's relation with the EU).
But Israel is not likely to get membership in the EU since israel lies in Asia and there are many opposers of Israel in the Eu.

I agree that it would be a great thing for Israel to be a member of the EU if and when peace could be established between Israel and the Palestinians. It would be an excellent carrot to offer both countries as an incentive to set aside their differences. Both nations could be allowed access to the EU based on the fact that Palestine fell under the British Mandate. In the very least, there should be free-trade agreements in place as an incentive for working towards peace. I believe they are holding discussions on this in Europe as we speak.

[Mediocrates]

The EU would immediately mount a campaign to export as many arabs as it could 'back to their homeland'. Israel would be forced to comply with EU immigration and residency laws and it would spell the end of Israel inside of 10 years. The EU has already shown no backbone in enforcing it's own fiduciary rules for continued membership so they would simply bankrupt themselves or Israel or both trying to send millions of Arabs there.

Let's face it folks the only plausible advantage is money and money is lying around everywhere. There is nothing magical about EU money given that they are already major trade partners with Israel. Israel could just as likely form it's own 'nonaligned' union with other countries like India, Turkey, Taiwan, Brazil, etc. For sure there would be all of the economic benefits like EU membership and none of the cultural ethnic oppression. Israel in the EU is a horrible idea. They didn't fight and die for 5 decades to hand over their destiny to bunch of unelected technocrats of proven disloyalty.

[yehudi]

Some of you must know that a convention has been working to establish a Constitution for Europe,
you can find the draft European constitution here : http://european-convention.eu.int/bienvenue.asp?lang=EN



PREAMBLE
TITLE I: DEFINITION AND OBJECTIVES OF THE UNION

Article 1
- Decision to establish [an entity called the European Community, European Union, United
States of Europe, United Europe].
- A Union of European States which, while retaining their national identities, closely coordinate
their policies at the European level, and administer certain common competences on a federal
basis.
- Recognition of the diversity of the Union.
- A Union open to all European States which share the same values and commit themselves to
promote them jointly.

Article 2
This article sets out the values of the Union: human dignity, fundamental rights, democracy, the rule
of law, tolerance, respect for obligations and for international law.

Article 3
Objectives of the Union
This article establishes the general objectives, such as:
- protection of the common values, interests and independence of the Union
- promotion of economic and social cohesion
- strengthening of the internal market, and of economic and monetary union
- promotion of a high level of employment and a high degree of social protection
- a high level of environmental protection
- encouragement for technological and scientific progress
- creation of an area of liberty, security and justice
- development of a common foreign and security policy, and a common defence policy, to defend and promote the Union's values in the wider world.

(..).

[yehudi]

.. and this is the preamble of the draft constitution


PREAMBLE

Our Constitution is called a democracy because power is in the hands not of a minority but of the whole people.
Thucydides II, 37

Conscious that Europe is a continent that has brought forth civilisation; that its inhabitants, arriving in successive waves since the first ages of mankind, have gradually developed the values underlying humanism: equality of persons, freedom, respect for reason,

Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, which, nourished first by the civilisations of Greece and Rome, characterised by spiritual impulse always present in its heritage and later by the philosophical currents of the Enlightenment, has embedded within the life of society its perception of the central role of the human person and his inviolable and inalienable rights, and of respect for law,

Believing that reunited Europe intends to continue along this path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning, and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world,

Convinced that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their ancient divisions, and, united in an ever closer fashion, to forge a common destiny,

Convinced that, thus "united in its diversity", Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and for their responsibilities towards future generations and the Earth, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope,

Grateful to the members of the European Convention for having prepared this Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe.

[Who, having exchanged their full powers, found in good and due form, have agreed as follows:]

[Communication]

Now you see, already the line where you guys hail the Greeks and the Romans is a non-starter for us Jews. I suppose we can set aside our past skirmishes with the Greeks if the Turks can, but why would Israel adopt a Constitution that glorifies Rome? The Romans occupied, murdered and enslaved our people. They leveled our cities and destroyed everything that was sacred to the Jewish people. They attempted to erase Jewish memory by renaming our land and our capital. Who was the insensitve p*r*i*c*k who added that one to the Constitution?

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Communication
Now you see, already the line where you guys hail the Greeks and the Romans is a non-starter for us Jews. I suppose we can set aside our past skirmishes with the Greeks if the Turks can, but why would Israel adopt a Constitution that glorifies Rome? The Romans occupied, murdered and enslaved our people. They leveled our cities and destroyed everything that was sacred to the Jewish people. They attempted to erase Jewish memory by renaming our land and our capital. Who was the insensitve p*r*i*c*k who added that one to the Constitution? *gulps* I didn't foresee that.

Maybe, one good news about the constitution is it was decided after much debate not to put christianity as the founding religion of Europe, much to the dismay of John Paul...

.

[Evgeny]

After 2000 years you people really know how to hold a grudge. Hey i dont have anything against Tatars and they did much worse to Russia then Romans did to jews

[minusthejihad]

"thousands of years of beautiful tradition from Moses to Sandy Kofax, you're god damned right I'm angry!"

- Walter, from the Big Lebowski

Maybe we forgive, but we don't forget. My girlfriend is Italian. I have no beef with her, but her great great great great grandparents, that's another story.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Evgeny
After 2000 years you people really know how to hold a grudge. Hey i dont have anything against Tatars and they did much worse to Russia then Romans did to jews

It's not really a big deal, although I don't buy your story on comparative victimhood. Of course, if the EU wanted to glorify the Tatars in the Constitution, you might raise an objection. Just a hunch.

[Evgeny]

Originally posted by Communication
It's not really a big deal, although I don't buy your story on comparative victimhood. Of course, if the EU wanted to glorify the Tatars in the Constitution, you might raise an objection. Just a hunch.

Would not care. If the Tatars were some of the greatest scientist, poets, Historiens in human history then sure go head put em in.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Evgeny
Would not care. If the Tatars were some of the greatest scientist, poets, Historiens in human history then sure go head put em in.

You're full of carp. Besides, they are hailing them for their religous and humanist traits. It does strike me as interesting that they went back to two european empires and the enlightenment. The US Constitution was about an idea. The Europeans have to battle ancestrey. The EU did include some nice points about humanist ideals and foreward looking goals about the world community, but they still feel the need to get that common historical bond down in order to nation build. Would it be terribly insulting to suggest that perhaps in their effort to nation build, that the US has also become the new Jew?

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Communication
You're full of carp. I hope you're not letting of of your good manners, Comm....

Carp : any of various freshwater fish of the family Cyprinidae
Cr ap : usually vulgar : DEFECATE




Originally posted by Communication
Would it be terribly insulting to suggest that perhaps in their effort to nation build, that the US has also become the new Jew? You're talking carp here ... ;) (sorry couldn't help).

To me one of the things the is very typical of American civilization (I mean anglo american but also french american) is the New Frontier paradigm. Like the idea that space and resources are vast, almost unlimited and what life is about is taking risks and grasping opportunities, always moving forward.

There is very very little sense of any ancient tradition that could justify the existence of the country, like in Israel. No sense of ali·yah either.



Rewording Yves Lacoste "La géographie, ça sert d'abord àfaire la guerre", I would say for Israel "L'histoire ca sert d'abord àfaire la guerre" ("The formemost use of history is to make war").


Nothing like this in the american spirit which is always looking toward the future...

[Communication]

Originally posted by yehudi
I hope you're not letting of of your good manners, Comm....

Carp : any of various freshwater fish of the family Cyprinidae
Cr ap : usually vulgar : DEFECATE



You're talking carp here ... ;) (sorry couldn't help).

To me one of the things the is very typical of American civilization (I mean anglo american but also french american) is the New Frontier paradigm. Like the idea that space and resources are vast, almost unlimited and what life is about is taking risks and grasping opportunities, always moving forward.

There is very very little sense of any ancient tradition that could justify the existence of the country, like in Israel. No sense of ali·yah either.



Rewording Yves Lacoste "La géographie, ça sert d'abord àfaire la guerre", I would say for Israel "L'histoire ca sert d'abord àfaire la guerre" ("The formemost use of history is to make war").


Nothing like this in the american spirit which is always looking toward the future...

;) Je suis d'accord. I just wanted to throw that in there to see what you would say.

[White]

k im sorry im barging in, its the only place that lets me post so something is probebly wrong O_o

also, french ppl are bad. if communication is french, he's a bad person. :D


k sorry again for this intrusion, i just had to validate account somehow, i wont bother again i promise :/

[Communication]

Originally posted by White
k im sorry im barging in, its the only place that lets me post so something is probebly wrong O_o

also, french ppl are bad. if communication is french, he's a bad person. :D


k sorry again for this intrusion, i just had to validate account somehow, i wont bother again i promise :/

Lavan!

What are you doing? Meet me at the community board on TJ

[Adversary2Arabs]

White thought you were a male too :)

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=2491

Israel, Stay Out of "Entangling Alliances"
by Ariel Natan Pasko
July 11, 2003

In his farewell address of 1796, the first American president, George Washington, set out his vision of what would make the United States a truly great nation. He called for men to put aside party politics and unite for the common good, to create an "American character" wholly free of foreign attachments. The United States, he said, must concentrate only on American interests, and while the country ought to be friendly and open its commerce to all nations, it should avoid becoming involved in foreign wars. Although some have portrayed Washington as an isolationist, Washington did not call for isolation, only the avoidance of "entangling alliances."

Washington said, "The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible."

About Europe he said, "Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none or a very remote relation. Hence, she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities."

Then he asked, "Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice? It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world...." He agreed that America should uphold already signed agreements, but then concluded, "But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them."

Finally, about American defense policy Washington suggested, "Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies." But he warned of permanent "entangling alliances."

I wouldn't have felt the need to write this article, except for the fact that the issue of "entangling alliances" concerning Israel, is picking up steam. Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, while visiting Israel in June, said that he saw Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, as a natural candidate to join the European Union. Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom has also recently expressed an interest in EU membership, as has Israeli Finance Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, both from the ruling Likud party. Israel already has a Free Trade Agreement with the European Union, but that's not good enough for some people.

What caught my eye just the other day was when the current European Union president, Italian PM Berlusconi, suggested that Israel, Turkey and Russia be invited to join the EU. He stated that it would strengthen the EU politically and militarily. EU officials quickly clarified that the policy of the EU regarding Russia and Israel has not changed, and they won't be invited to join anytime soon. But think for a moment what Berlusconi said. Israel, its military research and development, its battle-tested troops and equipment, its willingness to fight, will strengthen Europe, that is, provide security. There is logic to what Berlusconi said. Remember, this is the Europe who couldn't bring itself to take on Saddam Hussein's Iraq. Berlusconi sees things long-term, and he sees Russia, Turkey and Israel all willing to use force to defend themselves, unlike the current European mercantile mentality, which is always looking to buy its way out of conflict through negotiation and promises of aid.

Yet Israelis who favor EU membership, in fact, are moving in the opposite direction. And there are quite a lot of Israeli leaders and businessmen thinking this way. Former Prime Minister Shimon Peres, for example, and the Labor Party, have been big supporters of EU coziness for years. Peres' Euro-Socialist roots speak for itself. Peres has been bouncing around, trying to "entangle" Israel for quite a while now. In the heyday of the "Peace Process" during the early 1990's he envisioned a "New Middle East", proposing a "Middle Eastern Common Market", but has since returned to his fallback position of closer ties with Europe.

Even the Likud Party, who traditionally has favored closer ties with the United States over Europe, has done all that it can to prepare Israel for EU membership. Notice the Sharon government's feverish attempts to stay within the Euro-guidelines for Israeli economic policy - government deficit and the like. And although quite a few Israeli citizens, lately, have called for the death penalty for terrorist atrocities, Israel continues not to have the death penalty, because, as a few Israeli politicians have expressed it, "it would hurt Israel's chances for acceptance in the EU." (The EU outlawed the death penalty.)

Israelis who see the good in closer relations with the EU, see a European political and military umbrella to protect them. Rather than bring strength to the EU, these Israelis, thinking like most of today's European leaders, are already planning on an era of "Peace" and the cutting back of Israel's martial prowess. Many of them, are moving in the direction of voluntarily giving up national sovereignty, firstly through the "Peace Process", by giving away actual territory to a Palestinian state, and secondly by joining a supra-national entity, the European Union. This does not bode well for the Jewish people's return to their ancient homeland and 2,000 year quest for national political independence.

Pre-dating Washington by some 3,000 years, there is a story in the Torah of the "professional curser" Bilam (see the Book of Numbers). Seeing the Jews leave Egypt and march toward the "Promised Land", get attacked and defeat a few groups along the way, King Balak of Midian decides on a new national defense strategy. Rather than direct confrontation with Israel, he hires Bilam to curse the Jews. Bilam, not wanting to admit that he's just your run of the mill "bad mouther", tells the king that he can only say what G-d tells him to. Appealing to G-d to help him curse Israel, Bilam is repeatedly told by G-d, "They are blessed." Bilam three times attempts to curse Israel, but all that comes out of his mouth are more blessings.

In what traditionally has been a guiding national policy for the Jewish people, Bilam proclaims, "Hen Am Livadad Yish-kon, Uv'Goyim Lo Yit-Chashave" or "Behold! It is a nation that shall dwell alone, and shall not be counted among the nations." (Numbers 23:9) Jews really don't need to look beyond their own tradition for policy guidelines that warn not to get into "entangling alliances." Traditional Jewish commentaries to these verses explain that the Jewish people get their strength and prosperity not from alliances with other nations and cultures, but from their single-minded adherence to their own unique Torah culture - Judaism - their single-minded worship of the G-d of Israel, their single-minded control over their own land and lives, and their single-minded defense of their own interests. In a nutshell, liberty, freedom and national independence.

George Washington understood this, the United States, he said, must concentrate only on American interests. America, Washington advised, while "extending our commercial relations" with other nations, was "to have with them as little political connection as possible." He also warned the United States to be "on a respectable defensive posture." What has been good advice for America for over 200 years, and has been good advice for the Jewish people for over 3,300 years, should be good advice for the modern State of Israel, as well.

So, I call on Israeli leaders and the people of Israel not to try and join the EU and to stay out of entangling alliances.
-------------------------------------------------
Ariel Natan Pasko, an independent analyst and consultant, has a Master's Degree in International Relations & Policy Analysis. His articles appear regularly on numerous news/views and think-tank websites, in newspapers, and can be read at http://www.geocities.com/ariel_natan_pasko.
(c) 2003/5763 Pasko

[Löweherz1]

undefinedundefined
Israel in the EU is like beef cattle joining the slaughterhouse workers union....

I absolutely agree, Medio. It would be like feeding sheep to the wolves. In short order the Jewish homeland would cease to be such any longer. Why would Isreal want to join the very organization that destroyed their homeland and scattered the Jews throughout the world (Rome that is). After all, if we open our eyes wide enough and look with some intelligence, we can see that the EU is nothing less than a modern day effort to rebuild the Roman empire. If I am wrong, why then did the EU have it's birth in Rome, in the Club of Rome, in June 1957. I remember this easily because I was born in June 1957. And again why is the constitution of the EU called the Rome Constitution, which was possibly signed in May of this year (2004) or will be soon.

[chrisjohn316]

I am happy to call Israel and Turkey as part of Greater Europe. I am unsure about Lebanon and think Syria may have to wait till hell freezes over.

[Olivier]

I am happy to call Israel and Turkey as part of Greater Europe.Israel is very much european by culture (europe is judeo-christian)

For turkey the question is a more complicated and there is a big debate about where europe should stop ...


I personally tend to think turkey should be strongly associated with europe, but all in all they are another culture. There are turk-speaking communties very far east ... even in China.

For me europe should "share everything with turkey (free trade, free investment, same human rights standards, very close military coordination...) save the european institutions".
We are big enough like this, maybe there are too many countries in already and including a 83 millions citizens muslem country, bound to be soon a biggest country than other european nation by demography (reunified germany is around 87M) will only dissolve europe into more confusion than there is already.
I say we include other countries that are european by tradition and we stop there. So I want Roumania and bulgaria in, eventually all of the former yougoslavia, but no more. Israel and palestine could be integrated (the two together then) but that would be an exception and this is in a distant future .

[Gregory]

My opinion, that Israel for a shot period of time have to join or to USA or to EU.
It is a single way to solve the Middle East problem in a legal way.
It is not a big secret, that we have a big crises of “national state” or “Jews state” or “Zionist state” ideology.
We have to replace it with “National-Cosmopolitan-Social-Liberal state” ideology and joint to the process of globalization with ambition of being a center, even ISRAEL – CAPITAL STATE OF WORLD GLOBALIZATION.
We have not forget, that Jews are not only little locate nation, but a great cosmopolitan European Jews nation too.
I have rise this problem on Russian Jews Forum “Globus Israela” http://www.israel-globe.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5559 and it get very many views and replays.
I also sure that “Israel EU membership can become much better alternative to the “ Rode map”.
(Almost everybody hate it, even who support it officially)

[TDidier]

My vote for you ;)


My opinion, that Israel for a shot period of time have to join or to USA or to EU.
It is a single way to solve the Middle East problem in a legal way.
It is not a big secret, that we have a big crises of “national state� or “Jews state� or “Zionist state� ideology.
We have to replace it with “National-Cosmopolitan-Social-Liberal state� ideology and joint to the process of globalization with ambition of being a center, even ISRAEL – CAPITAL STATE OF WORLD GLOBALIZATION.
We have not forget, that Jews are not only little locate nation, but a great cosmopolitan European Jews nation too.
I have rise this problem on Russian Jews Forum “Globus Israela� http://www.israel-globe.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5559 and it get very many views and replays.
I also sure that “Israel EU membership can become much better alternative to the “ Rode map�.
(Almost everybody hate it, even who support it officially)

[shimshon@shimsh]

Israel should not join the EU. From an economic point of view it would certainly be a big advantage, but not from a political point. The EU would very probably force Israel to make concessions it doesn't want to do.

Israel should go on his own way together with his friend the US, the EU is not a friend of Israel and would only harm it's already hard stand in the Middle East.

[Justcurious]

hehe you score .... Israel, five points (talking about Eurovision..)
"rift between Muslims in France" waddya mean ?

I find it strange if Israel ever joined the EU, not anything against the idea though. Yes, Turkey tries to join and most of it is outside Europe, but still...

The idea is as far as the participation of Israel in the Eurovision Song Contest! ;)

On the other, Europe's currency the euro is already used in the Canary Islands, Reunion, Martinique and French Guiana...

http://www.xe.com/euro.htm

[Mediocrates]

Israel is already part of the EU New Neighbourhood program. In related news the EU has a new program (http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=24&aid=17503) to give money to force along a PLO state:

Mr Solana's paper is expected to deal with four major areas; security, facilitating elections, economic development and reforms.

In the security area, the EU is said to be considering a police mission on the ground to help train Palestinian security services in the event of an Israeli withdrawal, in co-ordination with the Egyptian government.

At the same time that relations with Israel are getting worse (http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=24&aid=17516):

Although the EU and Israel recently concluded negotiations on a new bilateral agreement setting out deeper relations between the two sides, diplomats described some aspects of negotiations as tense.

Israel was the last of the eight countries involved in this round of 'European Neighbourhood' talks to conclude negotiations.


But if you ask some of them they will secretly tell you that it's better for Jews to do all the heavy lifting (http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=24&aid=17476):

The EU's representative in the Middle East has conceded that the controversial wall being built by Israel in the West Bank has stopped Palestinian extremists from carrying out suicide attacks in Israel.

His comments, made in an interview with Financial Times Deutschland, make him the first high-level EU diplomat to publicly say that the barrier has fulfilled its aim.

[Elin]

Heuh, sorry... I think you have that wrong. Turkey is indeed a religious Islamic country. The difference between Turkey and the arabs is that in Turkey it is the army that is the "Guarantor of the constitution"

I m just laughing with my !!

Education is important;yoyo?

[Elin]

I think people have nothing to say anything about Turkish Secularism,otherwise i just laugh with my to such ;)... ;) comments! (lovely i mean ;) )

Apart from Turkey,i don't think Christian Europe will admit Israel because you know EU is Christian Club.

[KettleWhistle]

I think people have nothing to say anything about Turkish Secularism,otherwise i just laugh with my to such ;)... ;) comments! (lovely i mean ;) )
So would you describe Turkey as a secular or as a religious country? I'm just curious.

[Elin]

So would you describe Turkey as a secular or as a religious country? I'm just curious.

My definition is not important,Turkey described herself 81 years ago as a Secular Democracy,even Turkey is not an Islam Country,Turkey is Officially *Irreligious Country*,population is muslim,at least most of them. ;)

[Elin]

Turkey is Officially Irreligious Country,population is muslim,at least most of them. ;)

*Officially*,and to say Turkey is Islam Country is *constitutional crime" ;)

[KettleWhistle]

That's what I thought, but thanks for explaining.

[KettleWhistle]

My opinion, that Israel for a shot period of time have to join or to USA or to EU.
It is a single way to solve the Middle East problem in a legal way.
It is not a big secret, that we have a big crises of “national state� or “Jews state� or “Zionist state� ideology.
Why is that a problem?


We have to replace it with “National-Cosmopolitan-Social-Liberal state� ideology and joint to the process of globalization with ambition of being a center, even ISRAEL – CAPITAL STATE OF WORLD GLOBALIZATION. We have not forget, that Jews are not only little locate nation, but a great cosmopolitan European Jews nation too.
Well, you don't need to join Europe for that. This requires two things that Israel is missing on at the moment. One is a sufficient inventment in higher education. Currently, the majority of university-educated Israelis do not hold Israeli degrees, and there will not be another aliah that will bring so many well-educated people in. So Israel needs to have three times as many universities as it does now.

The second problem that needs to be addressed is the lack of economic diversity. Israel depends on information technology and pharmaceuticals markets same way as the African economies depend on whatever crop their country grows. This needs to be changed as well, so that fluctuations in the above-mentioned core markets will not affect the economy and life of the whole country.

But joining with Europe will not help Israel achieve these goals. Worse yet, the anti-Israeli Europeans will have more say and more influence on what happens in Israel. And that will not do Israel any good.



I have rise this problem on Russian Jews Forum “Globus Israela� http://www.israel-globe.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5559 and it get very many views and replays.
I also sure that “Israel EU membership can become much better alternative to the “ Rode map�.
(Almost everybody hate it, even who support it officially)
That's an interesting forum... and I have to agree with several posters there who pointed out that it will not only bring in full implimentation of the "Road Map," but will be an even worse disaster for the country of Israel.

[Gregory]

The principal capital city architecture - philosophical model of
national – cosmopolitan state.
Suppose this state belong to the Global Union of high developed
states, for example EU.

The cosmopolitan city center – the circle radius about 2 – 3 kilometers.
People of all nations and religious of this state live and work there.
Universal human values and stereotypes dominated in this area in
peoples behavior.
The number of sectors, were citizens live go by radial way from
perimeter of the circle.

National sectors of different nations alternate cosmopolitan sectors.
National sector, cosmopolitan sector, other nation sector and so on.
In every 1 – 2 kilometers one can see a cosmopolitan rings, about 500
meters width.
In this way national areas of different nations surrounded by the cosmopolitan areas and do not rub each other.
It absolutely does not mean, that the person of one nation can’t visit,
work or even live at others nations area.
In national – cosmopolitan city will be persons from one nation,
to live lifestyle of other nations. Why no. Just tolerance increasing
between nations it will bring.

The grandiose Temple stays in center of the Capital City (the center of the circle).
It is a skyscraper MagenDavid star contour.

In one triangle on different floors one can see synagogues and other
religious offices of all kinds and forms of Judaism. ( sfaradi, ashkenazy, orthodoxy, conservatives, reformatory)
In other triangle – orthodoxy, catholic, Protestant Christians and others Christian concessions churches and offices.
In third triangle - all Muslim concession officers.
Forth triangle - all Hinduistic ( Buddistic ) officers and concession.
Fifth triangle - others different religious groups officers.
Sixth triangle - free individuality religious persons.

The center hexagon of the Temple is the place of common deals and dialog. Different common institutes, conferences, commissions, seminars, theological organizations are placed in different floors of it.
May be it is a prefiguration of the future Third Temple.
It seems to me that the Third Temple will have national – cosmopolitan ( integral-differential) conceptual idea.
Of course I am not propose to rebuild London, Paris or Jerusalem exactly according this scheme.
I used it just for populist explanation of national-cosmopolitan state idea.
I understand very well, that Temple can become the most dangerous place of national-cosmopolitan city.
It can become the goal of every kind terrorist, extremist and radical organization.
The main goal of national-cosmopolitan state is to reach such situation, when the Temple from the most scandal, antagonistic and dangerous places will become the most tolerant, spiritually and intellectually comfortable and the most safety one.
I believe, that supper concentration of all fundamental humanitarian problems in one place will bring their effective and conscious decision.

[Gregory]

NATIONAL-COSMOPOLITAN SONG.

I don’t hear you.
You don’t hear me.
You don’t speak with me.
I don’t speak with you.
HE is with out name,
HE is with out nation,
HE is with out motherland,
HE speaks and hears me.

[KettleWhistle]

You should consider writing sci-fi.

[Gregory]

For today’s situation understanding let us go insight Israel leadership and Palestinian leadership mind.
Palestinian leadership doesn’t want Palestinian independent state at all. They love themselves and their people too much for wishing them
beggary and crime suffering.
They also satisfied from today’s confrontation, because for every dollar they spend for military confrontation with Israel throw terror Israel spend $10000 for defense. It gives to Palestinians military economic wining possibilities.
Arafat main strategic goal – not to establish Palestinian State, but being in Israel borders, to force Israel to recognize the equality of rights of all nations. After that it will be open an absolutely legal way to dominate the majority of Arab nations in almost all elements of Israel life.
President of such state will be Jew, but premier minister will be Arab. May be their names will be Arafat and Sharon.
The full Israel left - right elite leadership consensus, that this situation is absolutely clear them.
So, to prolong the agony and illusion of national state idea they intent to implement the one side separation in the form of “Road map”.
Absolutely wrong idea. No one civil country in the world will recognize in such way separated Israel State borders.
Even after one side separation implementation it will live in Israel in fact 30% - 35% non-Jews, with tendency of Arabs increasing weight.
Don’t forget about a big number of Israel Jews, living outside Israel.

Gentlemen, comrades!
I urgently want to be fully understandable.
It is a dream of mine to live only with Jews in separate Jew’s state.
But I simply don’t see the Jew’s State now and I don’t see it in future.
After Road Map realization the other step will be the war of Israel Arabs and Bedouins for separation from Jews inside new little Israel.
And of course Israel will be forced by all world community to give full rights equality to all nations, citizens of our State.
Road map realization will bring Israel to the previous situation – double nations, hating each other State.
So instant of hating each others Jew’s and Arab’s Israel State I propose Israel to joint EU and get national cosmopolitan Jew’s, Arabs, other EU nations Israel State.
It will return Israel and Jews all over the world on legal, respectable and great future potential for Jews nation and all other nations way.

[Gregory]

Neozionism.

It is a matter of fact, that Zionism ideology in a deep conceptual crisis.
I believe, that today we need to refuse from radical Zionism, that urgently propose all Jews concentration and separation in Israel.
I propose to recognize such reduction of this idea harmful and dangerous deathly for Jews nation.
The main goal of all kind Jews enemies is to make world free from Jews by separating them in one place, for example Israel.
I don’t want to help them in their goals and propose to create an open and absolutely transparent Jews net of Israel, Countries of Eight, EU and Ukraine.
This net will have only one great national-cosmopolitan goal – to use all Jews gigantic potential of influence in these countries to create Global Union of these States.
It will mean, that from nationalistic Zionist idea Jews have to come
to idea of national-cosmopolitan Zionism.
I would like to call it Neozionism.
We are suspected in creation of Jews net for 2000 years.
It is time now to make Jews Neozionistic net the real fact.
Jews have clearly point, that situation of high Jews quality of life oppose other nations low quality of life in the same state is absolutely intolerant to us.
In every State of Global Union wear Jews will live well, other nations have to live well too.
Jews nation as other nations can’t live with out universal human values of 21 century – law rights equality, freedom of speech, conscience, persuasion; freedom of moving, living and working, right for happiness.
This rights full implementation the ordinary people can rich only being the citizens of Global State Union.
Global States Union will be the National-cosmopolitan-liberal-social State.
Neozionism will be the ideology of Jews living in such Global State.

[b.scheller]

Personally, I don't like the European Union. Their members change opinions about certain issues quite quickly. Also the European Union hasn't done anything to improve the Unionized Farmers in France or anywhere else. It's simply a very big beaurocratic machine, and yes in the past their opinions have been very anti-semetic.

I think most of the nations that have joined have made a mistake, let alone Israel. Perhaps Israel should just strengthen economic ties with the stronger nations, therefore improving on their economy while staying away from becoming just a pawn of Brussels.

[Gregory]

[QUOTE

I think most of the nations that have joined have made a mistake, let alone Israel. Perhaps Israel should just strengthen economic ties with the stronger nations, therefore improving on their economy while staying away from becoming just a pawn of Brussels.[/QUOTE]


Every Jew is the King in Shabat (Saturday).
Every member of EU some times is a President of EU and some times is a pawn – the equal member of EU.
Israel can be the same, equal and very exclusive State of EU.

[b.scheller]

I don't know, the problem is that many member nations dissaprove of each other within the union. Such as Germany and France dissaproved of the memberships of many of the newer member countries. Now they've set higher standards for the newer members, and have created sort of a wall that will eventually will be unproductive...

[Gregory]

We have helped the Europe to become free from Jews – to solve the Jewish question.
We have helped Jews to be released from languages idish and ladino.
We have losted idish and sfaradish culture.
We have helped Jews to be released from culture of all nations we had received for two thousand years of dispersion.
We have dangerously concentrated 6 million Jews in Israel.
What else can we do for Jews?

[CoinToss]

We have helped the Europe to become free from Jews – to solve the Jewish question.
We have helped Jews to be released from languages idish and ladino.
We have losted idish and sfaradish culture.
We have helped Jews to be released from culture of all nations we had received for two thousand years of dispersion.
We have dangerously concentrated 6 million Jews in Israel.
What else can we do for Jews?
1)Hitler never existed ?
2)Hitler killed 90% of the european ashkenazim
3)Untrue: there is 1 million yiddish speakers in New York ; most of the israeli kept their parent language (french, english, persian and more)
4)Every olei hadash brung his own culture with him to Israel
You are accusing the Jews for things their are victims of. It's disgusting.

For the number 5, I have my own solutions. Ask sharonbn, she is going to tell you.

[CoinToss]

Ho, BTW, I live in France, and let me tell you that Europe is not the future of Jews. I am just waiting for the next election in march 2007 to have a better evaluation of the situation.

[Theodikritis]

So guys let me get this straight.

You guys are against accepting Arab Immigrants intent on coming planting the banner of Jihad and voting us all out of Israel?

However you want Europe to be overwhelmed by Muslim Immigration and label whoever is against that as a rascist despite the fact that it is the people who are against Multicultural extremism who support Israel's right to exist in Europe.

The first few pages of this thread was total hypocrisy from the Israeli side.

So how many of you think an Arab Muslim France will have wonderful relations with Israel?

How about an Arab Britain, an Arab Italy, an Arab Greece etc etc etc.

If you guys want preferring people who share your values to people who not only don't share your values but also want to replace your country with a Shariah State as immigrants to be rascism then you best label your own country as rascist because Israel is not keen on Muslim Immigration.

Israel is not geographically part of Europe, however it is a Western Country so it is entitled to a special relationship with the EU, although not membership since being geographically part of Europe is required (Hence Australia is not in either).

So you guys feel that Europeans giving you advice about not joining the EU because of a flood of Muslim Immigration to Israel makes them rascists fine, in that case practice what you prach Gilgamesh and Mediocrates and go at once to demand Israel accept the Arab Refugess. If you will not do that you are hypocrites.

This is why you Israelis have such a hard time gaining public opinion, you get more friends by being friendly then by giving blanket insults, especially when they are hypocritical ones about how Europe must accept even more Muslim Immigration then it already isand convert to being Eurabia instaed.


Most European Countries are going through demographic changes that threatens to turn them into Islamic Shariah Countries, which makes lowering Immigration of Muslims make sense, the same exact way your own supreme court and government has cut off all Muslim Immigration by making marriage no longer grant Israeli Citizenship.

I am not an anti-semite, and I am firmly against Europeans like Gregory who I did see post horrible anti-semitic diatribes, however the blatant hypocricy of the first few pages is something I had to attack, you should understand Gilgamesh and Mediocrates, especially since the person in the thread who agrees with you that Europe must accept more Muslims would be Gregory.

Also the vast Majority of Turkey is not a geographical part of Europe, which precludes Turkey as well as Israel. The name Asia Minor means part of Asia not part of Europe.

[Gilgamesh]

You guys are against accepting Arab Immigrants intent on coming planting the banner of Jihad and voting us all out of Israel?Yes. We are against the so-called "right of return" the Arabs demands which actually means the end of the Jewish nation state in Israel.


However you want Europe to be overwhelmed by Muslim Immigration and label whoever is against that as a rascist despite the fact that it is the people who are against Multicultural extremism who support Israel's right to exist in Europe. What a mass you have done!
Most people who are agaisnt multi culturalism are also anti-semetic and anti-Israel for their own political reasons.

I don't really care how many Arab Jihadists become Europeans citizens or what percentage of European actually (not official, actuall) population is Arab. As far as I care, Europe can all convert to Islam, and with the pope first. More over, I think its a deserved punishment for Europe to disappear.

We are warning though, against this phenomena, not that I think it can be stopped or reversed. I am warning Europe from becoming anti-semetic and anti Isaeli due to Arab influance.


How about an Arab Britain, an Arab Italy, an Arab Greece etc etc etc. The Greeks had always held the most extrem anti-Israel opinions, and have always supported the "Palestinian" cause. I don't care how many "Palestinian" Arabs are living in Greece, I do hope you'll choke up on them.

[Reffo]

Gil

I do understand your anger because of what happened to Jews in Europe but you really must learn to have a bit more perspective. The fact is that although many Europeans are antisemitic and anti Israel, but not all of them are. For instance, if you take the trouble to read some of Theodikritis's past posts, you will find that he has not started here by making anti Israeli comments. To the contrary, he has sided with me and agreed with what I said to Takeo. However, if you continue to have the indiscriminate attitude that you have, you will succeed in changing his mind and the minds of others like him. Is that what you want?

[CoinToss]

Gilgamesh has been extremely insulting toward 1.5million to in another post.
Maybe you should have a break, Gil. It seems you you are not in the right mood to answer.

[Elin]

So my question,do israelis really want EU membership?

[Elin]

Gilgamesh has been extremely insulting toward 1.5million to in another post.
Maybe you should have a break, Gil. It seems you you are not in the right mood to answer.

You never see some other insulters in this forum,typical one-sided Coin Toss..

[Justcurious]

So my question,do israelis really want EU membership? As seen from a EU country currently involved in talks about Turkish membership this is a good question. Anyone who doubts the joining of a predominantly Muslim country may similarly doubt the joining of a Jewish country.

My personal opinion, though, is that religion should have little to do with membership. Human rights are more important, although Islam and human rights seem to go hand in hand.

[Gilgamesh]

So my question,do israelis really want EU membership?
I haven't seen a real trustworthy poll regurding this subject, but I can tell you what I feel, and what I know many Israelis think of.

Israelis overall hate and extremly distrust all Europeans, some more then others. It's not only the history or the holocaust that affect our position, but mostly the ongoing pro-Arab conditioning of European foreign policy. Recent events and current double standards of the European politcs and media trigger this responce in us.

Being part of the European union means open borders, losing control over immigration within the union. We hate the thought of being out numbered or even neigboughrs of the same anti-semetic euro-trash filth, from which my ancestors run away from to Israel in the first place!

Israel and Zionism, were created to persue Jewish human rights and supply world Jewary with a shelter and refuge from the Eurropean scum of the earth, which inflicted us with the holocaust. Why in hell should we Jews want such creatures, Greeks and others, to be our next door neighbours all over again?

One of the key subjects in the heart of the matter is our right of self defense. Europeans, being highly racist anti-semetic, as they proved themselves to be in the past, and with thier rethorics these days, fear and condem our right of self defense. Losing our sovereignity means also secrefing our right of self defense, in favour of great defense alliances. Which practilcly means, making our soldiers the work horse in Kosovo while denying us the ability to defend ourselves from the Arabs. Joining the EU means disbanding our army without solving the security matters. Cause we trust the EU to ignore any paper they sign on regurding our rights to live in peace.

If EU rethorics today critizise our right of self defense, who would defend us within the EU?

However, Israelis do hope for the economic benefits and foreign investments that joining the EU might bring.

Israel best interest would be to merge the two. Reach a certain special position status, which would retain most of our sovereignity and our right of self defense, while allow greater involvement of our businesses in the European arena.

[Gilgamesh]

I do understand your anger because of what happened to Jews in Europe While Europeans crimes against my people would never be forgotten, even thousands of years afater the last European have perished, my opinions refer to current European inherit anti-Israeli stance. Though there is some improvement in such matters, these are only from the lips out wards. In their [European] core its thesame as 60 and thousand years ago.


but you really must learn to have a bit more perspective. Though my writing is inflamatory and direct, it reflects perfectly what I feel about the matter. I strongly distrust Europeans. Even when they aren't "out to get me", they already demonstrate support of our enemeis. Enemies bent on OUR extermination.


The fact is that although many Europeans are antisemitic and anti Israel, but not all of them are. There is always a tiny minority of rightous gentiles. I have never questioned their existance or ever stopped praising their heroism and justness. However, they are too few for all of Europe to hide behind their backs. Infact, they prove more strongly the choise all Europeans had and the fact all Europeans chose differently, most Europeans chose evil.


To the contrary, he has sided with me and agreed with what I said to Takeo. However, if you continue to have the indiscriminate attitude that you have, you will succeed in changing his mind and the minds of others like him. Is that what you want?I got a totally different impression of that Greek. Unlike you, my impression of him is based upon his past posts.

Rarely has such forum changed people minds entirely. It has though, supplied information and added strength to people's original-opinions, mind you, on both sides of the trench.

[Gilgamesh]

As seen from a EU country currently involved in talks about Turkish membership this is a good question. Anyone who doubts the joining of a predominantly Muslim country may similarly doubt the joining of a Jewish country.

My personal opinion, though, is that religion should have little to do with membership. Human rights are more important, although Islam and human rights seem to go hand in hand.

Had all Muslems would adopt the way set by the great Ata Turk, the would be peace and freedom across the Middle East. Had all Arabs been more like the Turks, and less like themselves, there was no terrorism and no wars and no bloodshed of any sort.

[CoinToss]

You never see some other insulters in this forum,typical one-sided Coin Toss..Maybe you should precise a little bit, because your message is void.

[Elin]

Maybe you should precise a little bit, because your message is void.

When it comes to Turkey you are always one-sided,just like your citizen takeo.

[Mediocrates]

On a practical level - Israeli membership in the EU would require it to no longer be Israel. It would be required to open its borders to any other EU state for residency and employment. It would be required to essentially buckle to every demand of the EU vis a vis the Palestinians and it would be required to deal with states such as Iran as 'partners'. Pretty silly stuff. No, the EU has made its goals and intentions very clear. In fact I'd gander that after Romania and Bulgaria join, then Croatia, then the rest of the Balkans, then Turkey and possibly Moldava you'll see Libya moving to join. Israel in this sphere is better served by the EU 'Neighborhood program' which is more like favored nation status.

[Elin]

As seen from a EU country currently involved in talks about Turkish membership this is a good question. Anyone who doubts the joining of a predominantly Muslim country may similarly doubt the joining of a Jewish country.

My personal opinion, though, is that religion should have little to do with membership. Human rights are more important, although Islam and human rights seem to go hand in hand.

According to NTV today 53 percent of Turks are in favor of EU Turkey's membership,just 6 months ago it was 60 percent,last year it was approxtimately 70 percent.

I don't think Turkey or Israel will ever be admitted to the EU,religion plays major role,neither Israel nor Turkey Christian State.

[Elin]

Had all Muslems would adopt the way set by the great Ata Turk, the would be peace and freedom across the Middle East. Had all Arabs been more like the Turks, and less like themselves, there was no terrorism and no wars and no bloodshed of any sort.

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/ataturkrz.html

About the EU,what I know from Turkey's experiences..

If Israel attemps to join the EU..

..,you all will be interrogated for your religion,for your culture,for your identity under the name of "Cophenagen criterias",greens will start "freedom" campaigns for the terrorists (its about the definition of terrorism...),some others who oppose Israel's membership will start "No" campaigns against you,some will ask this famous question:is Israel geographically in Europe? Cocksure politicians will open their cocksure mouths,like Chirac,then you have to deal with many rude politicians...etc.

You better stay away from EU,Turkish people gradually come to acknowledge the reality that their country will not be invited to join the European Union any time soon.

[CoinToss]

When it comes to Turkey you are always one-sided,just like your citizen takeo.I'll be glad to know when I last talked about Turkey. And about Takeo, yes he is a french citizen. Exactly as Erdogan is a turkish citizen. You need anything else ?

[Elin]

I'll be glad to know when I last talked about Turkey. And about Takeo, yes he is a french citizen. Exactly as Erdogan is a turkish citizen. You need anything else ?

I don't follow the forum so often but I remember very well your one-sided messages.

I don't say takeo or you are bad persons,I am just saying that you two (include Hebrew-Swede) you three are always one-sided about Turkey. You know it's true. Anyway if you are happy to be so,i have nothing to say..

[Gilgamesh]

Elin,

About Turky I have always been consistent.
1) I am happy Turky is our friend, and I remember the Turks to be good hearty people, who largely treated my people in respect and tolerance.

2) I consider Ata Turk to be a great man and huge reformer who layed down the way of progress to Turky and the rest of the muslem world.
Ata Turk's revolution is underestimated by others and it's a pity. I do understant the great man achivement.

3) I have always claimed Turky has nothing to gain in joining the EU but a chance to harm her honor and pride. It does not become you to flatter the Europeans. Turky should look east and south, not west. Develop central-western Asia and forget about the arrogent Euros who are going downhill anyhow.

[Theodikritis]

Reffo and CoinToss thanks for defending me against Gilgamesh' diatribes, it is nice to see that some people here do treat me fairly.


Yes. We are against the so-called "right of return" the Arabs demands which actually means the end of the Jewish nation state in Israel..

Which makes you 100% Hypocritical for your hypocricy read the reast of your own post.


What a mass you have done!
Most people who are agaisnt multi culturalism are also anti-semetic and anti-Israel for their own political reasons.

That is 100% untrue mr lying hypocrite. It is the anti-multicultural crowd that is pro-Israel, infact the anti-multicultural crowd points to Israel's refusal to accept a threat to its demographics as the way to go. Such inconveniences as truth however should not prevent you from hating your own friends, and you wonder why so much of the world has an extremely low opinion of you. However I know from seeing Israeli tourists that not all Israelis are Europe hating hypocrites who want their own friends to be labeled rascists, and want their allies to dissapear.


I don't really care how many Arab Jihadists become Europeans citizens or what percentage of European actually (not official, actuall) population is Arab. As far as I care, Europe can all convert to Islam, and with the pope first. More over, I think its a deserved punishment for Europe to disappear.

Once again hateful, and stupid. The Pope has condemned anti-zionism as a form of bigotry and made his stance on anti-semitism very clear. He is a very good friend you have, however he is the man you hate most of all. You openly want Europe to dissapear, well perhaps unlike most Israelis who I know to be good and honest people you personally deserve to have millions of Arabs wishing the same fate to you.


We are warning though, against this phenomena, not that I think it can be stopped or reversed. I am warning Europe from becoming anti-semetic and anti Isaeli due to Arab influance.

Wait wait wait, I thought you were all for multiculturalism, and for having anyone that wants to stop Muslim Immigration labelled a rascist the way you screamed on the first three pages. Will you at least be a little bit consistent?


The Greeks had always held the most extrem anti-Israel opinions, and have always supported the "Palestinian" cause. I don't care how many "Palestinian" Arabs are living in Greece, I do hope you'll choke up on them.

You can't distinguish between Greek People, and the Greek Government (Which has stopped being anti-Israel just so you know), well perhaps you should throw your copies of Aristotles works, your copy of the Illiad, purge your shelf of Greek Philosophers etc etc etc since it is clear you hate Greece so much. Me and most Greeks however have nothing against Israel, which is why today now that democracy has been restored to Greece, Greece and Israel have warm relations. However like I said by all means do not let the little handicap of facts stand in your way Gilgamesh. Yes we support a Two State Sollution, which is what your country voted for. However you hope we choke on them, although that would economically be a major blow to Israel since they would boycott Israeli Goods that Greece buys en masse.

Elin like I said before the problem is Geography, most of Turkey is in Asia, and all of Israel is in the Middle East, which makes the case for membership very strained indeed. However because Israel is a Western Country, and because Turkey is very close to Europe both countries are entitled to a special relationship with the EU, which they both have.


While Europeans crimes against my people would never be forgotten, even thousands of years afater the last European have perished, my opinions refer to current European inherit anti-Israeli stance. Though there is some improvement in such matters, these are only from the lips out wards. In their [European] core its thesame as 60 and thousand years ago.

If that's not rascism what is?


Though my writing is inflamatory and direct, it reflects perfectly what I feel about the matter. I strongly distrust Europeans. Even when they aren't "out to get me", they already demonstrate support of our enemeis. Enemies bent on OUR extermination.

Some Europeans strongly display their support for you, their thanks apparently is you lumping them together with all Europeans as a single entity.


There is always a tiny minority of rightous gentiles. I have never questioned their existance or ever stopped praising their heroism and justness. However, they are too few for all of Europe to hide behind their backs. Infact, they prove more strongly the choise all Europeans had and the fact all Europeans chose differently, most Europeans chose evil.

No, most Europeans just don't care at all about what goes on in the Middle East.


I got a totally different impression of that Greek. Unlike you, my impression of him is based upon his past posts.

Rarely has such forum changed people minds entirely. It has though, supplied information and added strength to people's original-opinions, mind you, on both sides of the trench.

He is reffering to the only posts I made here that were not either honest questions, or posts about the Armenian Genocide and Armenians, and although I didn't change my mind about Israel, I know that plenty of people who have never been to Israel, and are not in as regular contact with Israeli Tourists as I am would get the impression from you that Israelis hate Europeans and therefore should not get their support, since that is exactly what you told me.



Getting back on topic though, geographically how can Israel be an EU Member? It is like suggesting Austrailia become an EU Member, how can it be justified by geography? I do however support strong ties and continuing warm relations with Israel, the same way I support continuing warm relations with the United States.


On a practical level - Israeli membership in the EU would require it to no longer be Israel. It would be required to open its borders to any other EU state for residency and employment. It would be required to essentially buckle to every demand of the EU vis a vis the Palestinians and it would be required to deal with states such as Iran as 'partners'. Pretty silly stuff. No, the EU has made its goals and intentions very clear. In fact I'd gander that after Romania and Bulgaria join, then Croatia, then the rest of the Balkans, then Turkey and possibly Moldava you'll see Libya moving to join. Israel in this sphere is better served by the EU 'Neighborhood program' which is more like favored nation status.

You called Europeans on the first page who gave you that warning rascists for saying that exact same thing. Are you saying your a rascist or do you take back what you said earlier?

[Gilgamesh]

That is 100% untrue ... It is the anti-multicultural crowd that is pro-Israel wrong. much of it is anti-semetic.

However I know from seeing Israeli tourists that not all Israelis are Europe hating hypocrites who want their own friends to be labeled rascists, and want their allies to dissapear. Never mixed turist politeness with their real opinions of the Greeks or EU in general. We Israelis have allies in Europe, but they are too few and powerless.


The Pope has condemned anti-zionism as a form of bigotry and made his stance on anti-semitism very clear. I know he made a lukewarm decleration against anti-semetism, but I know of no condemnation of anti-zionism. Either way, we are not fooled. We know the Catholic church lines are full of anti-semetic biggots.

As a Jew, I have no obligation to love my enemies, in fact, the exact opposite.


You openly want Europe to dissapear, Yap! I sure am!


Wait wait wait, I thought you were all for multiculturalism, and for having anyone that wants to stop Muslim Immigration labelled a rascist the way you screamed on the first three pages. Will you at least be a little bit consistent? I am consitent, always have.
I was never pro-multiculturalism, never was. I hate when you generalize all Jews to be pro-multiculturalism. Freedom of religion is not equall with multiculturalism. As multiculturalism refers to the natioanal identity of the state, whether it would be assoicated with single or several ethnicisites and culturs. Infact, all those who are pro-EU must be also pro-multiculturalism. Since I am a Zionist, I am agaisnt EU and against multiculturalism, which seem to me as opposite to our human right of self identity.

I don't mind Arab flooding Europe, cause I am not European and Europe can go to hell, as much as I care.



You can't distinguish between Greek People, and the Greek Government (Which has stopped being anti-Israel just so you know) It is not much possible in a democratic society. To some degree, the goverment represent the feelings of it's people.


well perhaps you should throw your copies of Aristotles works, your copy of the Illiad, purge your shelf of Greek Philosophers etc etc etc
Why? It is quite stupid to assume that your are direct decendent of the anciant Greeks. AFAI can remember, modern greeks have arrived to Greece some 1500 years ago, with the collapse of the Roman empire and the great migration of people 472 ACE.

Even if modern Greeks are the the real decendents of the anciant once, then I have couple of things to say about it. 1) We Jews are some 2,000 years you elder, when our first golden age preceded yours in some 700 years. By the time Humer wrote the illiad we were in had the SECOND TEMPLE built in Jerusalem and having Ezra and the Knesset reformations...
2) The anciant Greeks are sure great people... then how come you ain't? What good has the modern greeks gave the world in the last say... hundered years?

One of the Greek's chief problems, you think too highly of yourself you forget your real place in the world.


Me and most Greeks however have nothing against Israel Of course you lie. I know Greeks Jews living in Israel, they have planty of other stories to tell about your people.


Some Europeans strongly display their support for you, their thanks apparently is you lumping them together with all Europeans as a single entity. There are Europeans who support Israel. I acknowledge this. Yet they are too few and too powerless to mention. BTW, none of them is from greece. Most of them are from UK and Netherland, and support us for religious (their religious) messianic belifes.


You called Europeans on the first page who gave you that warning rascists for saying that exact same thing. Are you saying your a rascist or do you take back what you said earlier?No, Europeans who are against immigration, against multi-culturalism are usually of far-right parties, which happened to be also anti-semetic. Same people - different issues.

[Theodikritis]

wrong. much of it is anti-semetic.

That isn't true, the anti-multicultural crowd is not anti-semitic. It is that crowd that supports Israel. However like I said don't let the truth stand in your way.


Never mixed turist politeness with their real opinions of the Greeks or EU in general. We Israelis have allies in Europe, but they are too few and powerless.

If what they say is not their true opinion why the hell would they be in Greece? What I say makes sense, what you say does not, because if they hated Greece or Greeks they would certainly not be visiting. You are just plain ignorant, some of the most prominent politicians in Europe are pro-Israel, and those politicians happen to be anti-immigration, however such inconvenient truths should not stop your mindless bigotry. You deserve to have Arabs saying the same about you that you say about us.


I know he made a lukewarm decleration against anti-semetism, but I know of no condemnation of anti-zionism. Either way, we are not fooled. We know the Catholic church lines are full of anti-semetic biggots.

As a Jew, I have no obligation to love my enemies, in fact, the exact opposite.

Then you must have not been listening to events in Rome when Ahmadinejad first mouthed off. His condemnation of anti-semitism was not lukewarm either. The Catholic Church is not your enemy, of yes I forgot anything that is European you hate.


I am consitent, always have.
I was never pro-multiculturalism, never was. I hate when you generalize all Jews to be pro-multiculturalism.

In that case you are admitting to hypocricy, and do distinguish between your own deranged views and the Jewish People, when I respond to you I respond to your deranged self, not the Jewish People.


Freedom of religion is not equall with multiculturalism. As multiculturalism refers to the natioanal identity of the state, whether it would be assoicated with single or several ethnicisites and culturs.

That contradicts itself.


It is not much possible in a democratic society. To some degree, the goverment represent the feelings of it's people.

The Greek Government only fought Israel when it was the undemocratic American backed Military Junta. When the Junta fell relations gradually improved between Greece and Israel. Even at its worst though Greek-Israeli relations were better then Syrian-Israeli, or Lebanese Israeli, Saudi-Israeli relations at their best.


Why? It is quite stupid to assume that your are direct decendent of the anciant Greeks. AFAI can remember, modern greeks have arrived to Greece some 1500 years ago, with the collapse of the Roman empire and the great migration of people 472 ACE.

Fine, you once again show your hypocricy. In that case it is stupid to assume that modern Israelis are direct descendents of the ancient ones, how does that feel? Hypocrit


Even if modern Greeks are the the real decendents of the anciant once, then I have couple of things to say about it. 1) We Jews are some 2,000 years you elder, when our first golden age preceded yours in some 700 years. By the time Humer wrote the illiad we were in had the SECOND TEMPLE built in Jerusalem and having Ezra and the Knesset reformations...

The Old Testament was written over a period of hundreds of years by many authors, and often changed and modified, while the Illiad is unchanged since it was authored, and was written by Homer at once. I will not go into Ancient Greece vs Ancient Israel though since some people here may misinterpret what I have to say.


2) The anciant Greeks are sure great people... then how come you ain't? What good has the modern greeks gave the world in the last say... hundered years?

One of the Greek's chief problems, you think too highly of yourself you forget your real place in the world.

Battle of Crete, we held of the Germans long enough so operation Barbarossa happened during the winter, which caused the German Tanks to freeze, giving Russia the advantage it needed over a technologically superior Germany.


Of course you lie. I know Greeks Jews living in Israel, they have planty of other stories to tell about your people.

The Junta was anti-semitic, and we overthrew it, since we restored democracy in its birthplace relations with Israel, and Jews have been good.


There are Europeans who support Israel. I acknowledge this. Yet they are too few and too powerless to mention. BTW, none of them is from greece. Most of them are from UK and Netherland, and support us for religious (their religious) messianic belifes.

Well I guess George Papendrau is just a figment of everyones imagination. What you said there like everything else you said is just not true. You remind me of Arabs and Muslims who come up with the worst things they can think of and claim that Israel does/did it, my response to them is the same as it is to you, it just isn't true.


No, Europeans who are against immigration, against multi-culturalism are usually of far-right parties, which happened to be also anti-semetic. Same people - different issues.

Applying Double Standards are we? In that case surely you wouldn't mind Jews being held to a double standard or is that anti-semitism?

I repeat what I said before, I have nothing against Jews or Israelis, what I have said about being a hypocrite and a bigot applies to Gilgamesh, for his clear bigotry, not to Jews in general. I support continuation of warm Israeli-EU Relations, although not membership because Israel is not part of Europe.

[Mediocrates]

You called Europeans on the first page who gave you that warning rascists for saying that exact same thing. Are you saying your a rascist or do you take back what you said earlier?


Nothing of the sort. I said national identity in the EU is more of a brand affinity and that countries join the EU at the expense of sacrificing a great deal of what makes them uniquely 'them'. The countries in the EU have appeared to accept that bargain. So that today being Irish or Danish is a very small difference, culturally, politically. But that's because they were willing to make that deal.

Israel would be required to abandon Jewish law, separation with the Palestinians, any notion of national borders, an absolute right of return for Palestinians and more. The EU has more or less already made that claim. So Israel in the EU ceases to be Israel. First it becomes a Palestinian state then it becomes one of the weak poor second or third tier states in the EU. It's axiomatic.

Let's say for the sake of argument that the EU went to Canada and said "Join us but just get rid of those Quebecois and end the speaking of French." How do you think that would fly?

[Elin]

Theodikritis you better don't accuse anyone of being "hypocritical" my friend,because I remember your first days in the forum, "hey people do you know how "anti-semitist" those turks are"...,your sound was like that.

Now why do you get so upset when someone says the same thing for your country? I told you this forum was not the place to make cheap propagandas,do you remember?;)



Elin like I said before the problem is Geography, most of Turkey is in Asia, and all of Israel is in the Middle East, which makes the case for membership very strained indeed. ..


This most of Turkey includes your holy places (in Anatolia,alias Asia Minor,briefly today's Turkey) and the last capitals of three Empires,including Byzantine.;)


Don't worry,Turks are aware of everything and day by day loosing their desire for Turkey to join the EU.;)

[Elin]

For Israel,why should Israel joins the EU? Israel economy itself is fairly good for the region,they have money,they have technology,democracy,good education system.. And moreover they have serious problems,if Israel thinks to take a step for EU membership they must forget their fight against terrorism because EU controls every single step.

[CoinToss]

Let's say for the sake of argument that the EU went to Canada and said "Join us but just get rid of those Quebecois and end the speaking of French." How do you think that would fly?LOL !

On the other side Israel would fit perfectly in NATO I think.

[Mediocrates]

Could be - depends on the mission

[Theodikritis]

Theodikritis you better don't accuse anyone of being "hypocritical" my friend,because I remember your first days in the forum, "hey people do you know how "anti-semitist" those turks are"...,your sound was like that.

You and Khazar accussed the Armenians of being Nazis, so I pointed out things about Turkey that you wouldn't have liked to hear. Why is it you are willing to have Armenia put under a microscope to be labelled anti-semitic but you went bonkers when I did the same thing you did towards Turkey?


Now why do you get so upset when someone says the same thing for your country? I told you this forum was not the place to make cheap propagandas,do you remember?

First everything Gilgamesh has said is way beneath cheap propagandas, calling it that would be flattery. Second you didn't condemn Khazar who's own cheap propaganda against Armenians was what triggered what you consider my cheap propaganda, I am still waiting to see if you will affirm that Armenian and Nazi are not the same thing. Fourth I didn't see you defend Europe from Gilgamesh' diatribes. Fifth I have never advocated the destruction of Turkey, niether have I advocated killing Turks, overthrowing Turkish Society and replacing it with Shariah, making the Turks dissapear, however Gilgamesh stated all of the above just replace Turk Turkish and Turkey with Europe. Sixth even here in this thread I did say I support warm relations between the EU and Turkey, and Israel.


This most of Turkey includes your holy places (in Anatolia,alias Asia Minor,briefly today's Turkey) and the last capitals of three Empires,including Byzantine.

So? It doesn't change the geographic location.


I said national identity in the EU is more of a brand affinity and that countries join the EU at the expense of sacrificing a great deal of what makes them uniquely 'them'.

That is only half true


The countries in the EU have appeared to accept that bargain. So that today being Irish or Danish is a very small difference, culturally, politically.

If you speak to an Irishmen or a Dane you would find that that just isn't true. Culturally and politically every country in the EU is still very different.

However Mediocrates you did say this


It would be required to open its borders to any other EU state for residency and employment. It would be required to essentially buckle to every demand of the EU vis a vis the Palestinians

That sounds like not wanting immigration to me. Also about the Right of Return, if you feel Europe must take in massess of Muslim Immigrants who not only do not share its values but whish to overthrow the countries they go to in favor of Shariah why shouldn't Israel do the same? Europe and Israel are facing the same Jihadi threat, we are in this together.

I agree with you though that Israel should not surrender and agree to the Right of Return, I intervened in an agreement between Reffo and Takeo on that subject, however Europe is not obligated to take in massess of people who wish the fate to Europe the "Refugees" wish to Israel. I hope you understand this, it isn't about rascism.

CoinToss I agree with you, Israel should be in NATO, although geographic location makes entry into the EU somewhat rediculous, however since NATO is about mutual needs and friendship without any geography requirement I would support that move.

[Cellis]

why you all people need propoganda in a simple forum? :D That's what i don't get. And this thread is so gay. EU and Israel... They are too far each other :D

[isy]

i dont have time to answer this topic thats why my answer is shortly.


i havent seen anything about turkey in this topic so stop to compare israel with turkey to join eu and i dont interest with this stupid french comments also they dont been turkey even 1 time thats i can see how those stupid condition with them anyway. and turks dont need to prove anything about eu are they? Turkey is secular state who want to interest with this. again i am remembering to u topic ISRAEL TO JOIN EU good or bad? and i can say if eu wants to multiculture and share trade etc. they have to leave from prejudice ofcourse israel can enter eu but eu needs to change their mind if they wanna multiculture and etc. israel is in eurovision why not in eu ?

thanks.

[Gilgamesh]

LOL !

On the other side Israel would fit perfectly in NATO I think.

Again, I have similar opinions of NATO as to joining the EU. Nato is to big and consists of too many untrustworthy nations.

Should some suggestion of joining NATO appears, I'd protest as much as I leagly allowed.

I don't mind Israel joining military pacts and mutual-defense treaties, only I think we have to do so independently with each country, not joining a collective toothless monster that can only exploit us and bring us no significant benefits (what current benefits does the USA having from NATO or the UN ?) . i.e. signing seperate treaties with India, USA and UK for example, one of slight different nature with Australia and Singapour... one with Turky and a secret pact of co-operation with Jorden.

I don't want Israel to be involved with natoriously hypocritical countries like France or Germany. We can't trust they signature in times of urgency.

[Gilgamesh]

Theodikritis

You have out performed yourself.
So much ignorance about history and so many nonesense in such a pile of rubbish one never sees any day. It's a waste of time to comment on each of those errors and fuzzy logic nonesens you had written.

You constantly twist the facts and fail to understand even the clearest remarks I have made. You are too biased and too mixed up, no way I can keep posting to you, so I'll put you in my ignore list from now on untill you finaly understand you're a pain in a rear.

Have a nice whatever.

BTW, OUR olive oil is superior then anybody elses. Greek oilive oil should be banned for human consamption.

[Cellis]

BTW, OUR olive oil is superior then anybody elses. Greek oilive oil should be banned for human consamption.
wtf? :D

[Gilgamesh]

wtf? :DI've heard its a touchy spot for the Greeks.

[Cellis]

let's research and lobby! ;) First time i've heard about it

[Gilgamesh]

let's research and lobby! ;) First time i've heard about itAgreed! Any oil is better then Greek's ! Israeli & Tukish are the best! :D

[Reffo]

Gil

All I can say to you is this: One size does not fit all! Take it from me, Theodikritis is not antisemitic nor is he anti Israel. In addition to his early posts that I already mentioned, I read what he is saying to you on this thread and although you both seem to be upset at each other, he has not said anything that can be considered to be anti Israel. Sure, he is upset when someone is attacking the place where he lives (Europe and Greece) but surely he cannot be blamed for that, it's only natural for him to defend his own people. After all, that's what we too do here don't we? OTOH, I'm not saying that some of your criticisms are totally invalid either, what I'm saying though is that the way you are expressing it is confronting and not entirely valid. Not valid because it comes across as if you are generalising and also because it's very confrontational. Sure, there are millions of Europeans who don't like Jews or Israel but there are also millions of the current generation who don't really care either way and who are not very well informed about Jews or Israel and of course there are others who are potential allies and actual friends. So why would you want to treat all these people the same way, with hostility? I just think that it's both wrong of you to do that and also not wise. Surely, if they come here and say some things that you don't like it should be possible to conduct a civilised debate with them and just discuss the differences without being hostile? Of course, that holds true to both parties.

Now Gil, I'm not here to preach to you. I am just giving you my honest opinion and you know very well that I'm prepared to dish it out to the real haters if necessary but IMO Theodikritis is not one of those, even if you don't agree with everything that he says.

[Gilgamesh]

Reffo,
I'm realy touched by your post. Really am.

The Greek kid posts are confused, confrontional from Day one, and anti-Turkish. I hate his attidue from his very first post. He mixes lies, ignorance and plain old stupidity into a poisionous soup to swallow. The incedent is over, since I became convinced that foolished Theo-somthing is no match for us, and he'll draw no more reaction from me. I added him to my ignore list. He is hardly knowledgable of his own history.

My opinion of Greeks and other Europeans is based on their current behaviour as seen in their official goverment line, their media, polls and showcased by individuals who stagger into here.

The holocaust, however fundementaly and important by itself, and in forming my ideas of them, is still secondary to real time events which naturaly cause me not to like them.

[Cellis]

i never tasted real Turkish oil but in a village had a chance to taste/ half frozen, use it on the bread. I don't think there is big difference between Turkish and Greek oil. all are Mediterranean :D But what if Greek using HORMON? :D

[Gilgamesh]

i never tasted real Turkish oil but in a village had a chance to taste/ half frozen, use it on the bread. I don't think there is big difference between Turkish and Greek oil. all are Mediterranean :D
I'm not a real master in oil matters, I have heard though, the Greeks mix oils of lower quality and even add anti-freez. Its quite possible the greeks add hormons, it may explain why so many greek men produce women breasts.

In Israel, we add olive oil anywhere. cooking, frying, salads, TZefati cheese (kind of a feta) hummus what have you. It's also goes well with Za'arar, a melange unique to Israel in its rich flavour and quality.

[Cellis]

In Israel, we add olive oil anywhere. cooking, frying, salads, Zefati cheese (kind of a feta) hummus what have you. It's also goes well with Za'arar, a melange unique to Israel in its rich flavour and quality.

now i'm enjoying to write under this GAY topic. It's going well anyway ;)

We do use also in many many different foods and salads. There are some foods only being cooked with olive oil; nothing else.

And you wrote HUMUS!!! Is it same HUMMUS in Turkiye? Made with chickpea? I think it's one of the GREAT MEZE ever in the world.

[Gilgamesh]

now i'm enjoying to write under this GAY topic. It's going well anyway ;)

We do use also in many many different foods and salads. There are some foods only being cooked with olive oil; nothing else.

And you wrote HUMUS!!! Is it same HUMMUS in Turkiye? Made with chickpea? I think it's one of the GREAT MEZE ever in the world.
Ofcourse! Turkish kitchen has influanced all the people under the domination of the Othoman empire. Many Israeli Jews have roots in the Balkans, from Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Turky, and brought recapies from there.

In israel, many prepare their food at home, by themselves. cooking ability is a thing Israeli men boast about. Many, learned to cook in the army, while preparing their own food. Modern families, all take part in prepering the meal (aspecialy if it's festive). There is not a gay bone in it.

For example, my mother's Chorba are one of the finest I ever had, and I had plenty of Chorba all over Israel. Had you come to Israel, you'd be pleased how familiar you'll be with our food.

[Cellis]

Ofcourse! Turkish kitchen has influanced all the people under the domination of the Othoman empire. Many Israeli Jews have roots in the Balkans, from Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and Turky, and brought recapies from there.

In israel, many prepare their food at home, by themselves. cooking ability is a thing Israeli men boast about. Many, learned to cook in the army, while preparing their own food. Modern families, all take part in prepering the meal (aspecialy if it's festive).

For example, my mother's Chorba are one of the finest I ever had, and I had plenty of Chorba all over Israel. Had you come to Israel, you'd be pleased how familiar you'll be with our food.
Well i'm going to Israel this year:

City : Yehud
Street:Tenenbaum
No :15
http://www.arkadas.org.il/

I heard about the food culture in Israel. I think Israel wanted to import some Turkish head cookers for more Turkish foods :D

[Gilgamesh]

Well i'm going to Israel this year:

City : Yehud
Street:Tenenbaum
No :15
http://www.arkadas.org.il/

I heard about the food culture in Israel. I think Israel wanted to import some Turkish head cookers for more Turkish foods :D
We have quite a few Turkish resturants in Israel which employ Turkish cooks. Besides the "Israeli" kitchen is very similar to the Turkish. (only we don't mix meat and milk, no lamb in yogurt).

I have thought of another reason for the success of Turkish influanced food in Israel. Turky is a geographical average of Europe, Asia and North-Africa. The only food (and music) acceptable to all Jews of Israel is... Turkish. Besides, it's a food most suitable to our climate.

You are welcome in Israel any day, serdar!

[Theodikritis]

http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Mediterranean+-+Middle+East/Bilateral+Relations/Israel/

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=16843

http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1089

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=361&article=16839

Now isn't that a funny way to have an anti-Israel policy?

If Greece is anti-Israel we certainly do suck at it.

Reffo again thanks for your logic, and Gilgamesh you are pointless to talk to, I refuted all of your points, and your answer was just to restate them.

[Cellis]

http://www2.mfa.gr/www.mfa.gr/en-US/Policy/Geographic+Regions/Mediterranean+-+Middle+East/Bilateral+Relations/Israel/

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=24&article=16843

http://debka.com/article.php?aid=1089

http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=361&article=16839

Now isn't that a funny way to have an anti-Israel policy?

If Greece is anti-Israel we certainly do suck at it.

Reffo again thanks for your logic, and Gilgamesh you are pointless to talk to, I refuted all of your points, and your answer was just to restate them.
i don't think Israel or Israelis are anti-Greek. It's just tackling. Greeks are more humanist than France, and more quality policies they have.

[Cato]

serdar I agree with you. Gilgamesh you really do stand alone in your hatred.About Greece there are great, and abominable things about Greece, like there are good and bad things about the country.

[Elin]

Reffo may I ask you,if you are that honest and impartial why you didn't warn Theodikritis when he posts so many anti-turkish messages? I remember his first joins the forum,all his messages were sent for to make anti-turkish propaganda here?

[Elin]

My question is also for Cato and other "honests" of the forum..

[Elin]

You and Khazar accussed the Armenians of being Nazis, so I pointed out things about Turkey that you wouldn't have liked to hear. Why is it you are willing to have Armenia put under a microscope to be labelled anti-semitic but you went bonkers when I did the same thing you did towards Turkey?.


Cry my boy!

I'm sorry I can not read and reply your long posts,but here all I can say I didn't accuse Armenians of being Nazis,that's absurd. On the contrary you Theodikritis made a cheap propaganda and accused Turkey this way. And I posted some opposite links.

I am member of this forum since 2003,I never made anti-armenian propaganda in this forum,I never said they are anti-semitic,I never blamed greeks too,it's not my style to use this platform to balme greeks,armenians or kurds,i'm not that cheap. Only when people like you blame Turks this way I post opposite messages.


And don't put me in a same pot with serdar and Khazar,they likes such fights but I don't,that's why you can see these two in every discussion,while I prefer to stay away.

[Reffo]

Reffo may I ask you,if you are that honest and impartial why you didn't warn Theodikritis when he posts so many anti-turkish messages? I remember his first joins the forum,all his messages were sent for to make anti-turkish propaganda here?A fair question. And there is a simple and fair answer, I am not a moderator and it's not my role to argue with everyone who comes to say things on this forum, particularly because I am not wise and not all knowing about everything. In fact, I have to confess that I am reasonably ignorant about the past Turkish Greek conflict. All I have is superficial knowledge about it therefore I certainly don't feel that it would be wise of me to comment about it based on that.

On the other hand, I do know a fair bit about the Arab Israeli conflict, I feel affected by it because I grew up in Israel and I have relatives and friends there so that's why I was trying to alert Gil that he is mistaken about Theodikritis.

Having said all that, let me say that as far as I am concerned, I am not against anyone. I'm not against Turks, Greeks, Europeans or even Arabs. My dearest wish is that everyone should respect each other and that we should all live in peace. But so long as that's not the case and so long as my people will be under attack, my priority is for them. It doesn't mean that I ignore everyone and everything else but of course we have enough problems to cope with so that I cannot concentrate on every other conflict in the world, especially conflicts which are under reasonable control such as the Turkish Greek conflict. I only wish that Israelis and Arabs too could be in the same stage as Greeks and Turks, there wouldn't be as much death and suffering on either side.

I hope that answer satisfies you Elin.

[Cato]

My question is also for Cato and other "honests" of the forum..

I didn't ignore all of Theos earlier posts, infact I was the first person to condemn his unprovoked anti-Turkish cheap shots when he first made them. However most of his anti-Turkish cheap shots were just counter insults to anti-Armenian cheap shots in serdar and Khazar's threads, which is why I ignored them, although I did remind both sides in those threads that there is anti-semitism in both countries so they looked foolish to me trying to use it as their argument.

Some things he did say though are valid, for example he criticized Bernard Lewis for Genocide denial, but unfortunately did it in a very vulgar way on a different thread.

What is funniest though Elin is that he, serdar, and Khazar seem to get along with each other.

Anyway I hope that answers your question, and I also remember when Theo came, most of the threads that he posted in where either Khazars or Serdars threads about Armenian anti-semitism, so I didn't see anything offensive about him bringing up Turkish anti-semitism, although I did criticize his bringing it up in other threads, and I have called him stupid when what he said was idiotic rather then just propaganda, for example when he used to think Bosnians were Turks.

[Cellis]

I didn't ignore all of Theos earlier posts, infact I was the first person to condemn his unprovoked anti-Turkish cheap shots when he first made them. However most of his anti-Turkish cheap shots were just counter insults to anti-Armenian cheap shots in serdar and Khazar's threads, which is why I ignored them, although I did remind both sides in those threads that there is anti-semitism in both countries so they looked foolish to me trying to use it as their argument.

Some things he did say though are valid, for example he criticized Bernard Lewis for Genocide denial, but unfortunately did it in a very vulgar way on a different thread.

What is funniest though Elin is that he, serdar, and Khazar seem to get along with each other.

Anyway I hope that answers your question, and I also remember when Theo came, most of the threads that he posted in where either Khazars or Serdars threads about Armenian anti-semitism, so I didn't see anything offensive about him bringing up Turkish anti-semitism, although I did criticize his bringing it up in other threads, and I have called him stupid when what he said was idiotic rather then just propaganda, for example when he used to think Bosnians were Turks.
I'm actually more anti-european than anti-armenian. I'm not even anti-armenian and propoganda is useless here.

the reason for me to register to this forum is some other guys who makes propoganda and talking bullsht. Otherwise i was just lurking here.

I hate EU because they make our conflict deeper and worst. This is our conflict and we should to solve between us. Not with EU.
Eu also makes arab-israeli conflict worst. This is their problem and Israel should to solve this alone.

[Cato]

I'm actually more anti-european than anti-armenian. I'm not even anti-armenian and propoganda is useless here.

the reason for me to register to this forum is some other guys who makes propoganda and talking bullsht. Otherwise i was just lurking here.

I hate EU because they make our conflict deeper and worst. This is our conflict and we should to solve between us. Not with EU.
Eu also makes arab-israeli conflict worst. This is their problem and Israel should to solve this alone.

I agree, and I shouldn't have said your threads, since the Armenian-anti-semitism threads that Theo posted in where started by Khazar not you.

[Elin]

Thank you for your sincere answers,Reffo and Cato.

I don't want to get involved but I know that Theo is not an angel,he was very provocative from the start,many of you also know that very well.

Cato,i warned Khazar to stop posting such messages but he is an independent person...and you know he is not the only one,he is not discussing with himself,there are others too..

But on the other hand I really get tired of reading especially kurdish propagandas here,we can not discuss anything in this hostile atmosphere.

Here just some titles..

"Turkey hides Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction"

"Why I believe Turkey hides Weapons of Mass of Saddam Hussein"

"Turkish Peace Keeping Sector becomes a Heaven for Saddam Terrorists "

"Retarded Nazy Turks forming their own AXIS of EVIL "

"Terrorist Demonstration of Saddamites & Turkish Agents"

What do you think about all these titles?

[CoinToss]

What do you think about all these titles?The turkish army is laic and pro-Israel, so this is bullsheets.

On the other hand, Erdogan should go play marbles on the highway. :p

[Reffo]

"Turkey hides Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction"

"Why I believe Turkey hides Weapons of Mass of Saddam Hussein"

"Turkish Peace Keeping Sector becomes a Heaven for Saddam Terrorists "

"Retarded Nazy Turks forming their own AXIS of EVIL "

"Terrorist Demonstration of Saddamites & Turkish Agents"

What do you think about all these titles?Obviously these are just highly speculative unproven assertions because otherwise Turkey would be in trouble from the US and it's allies. I can see why you are upset by these and I don't blame you for it, who came up with those threads/posts?

[Elin]

They are seperate threads, i counted 20 threads like that were created just by one person...,+others...

I call them provocateur because such people deserve to be called so.

Actually we also hide Bin Laden in Turkey,this American Secret Service is really sleeping...

[Elin]

On the other hand, Erdogan should go play marbles on the highway. :p

CoinToss, at least we agree on something.

About this pig..

[Romain]

The EU's main fault is that it is WEAK. The Europeans, whenever they ahve a problem, talk and talk and create complicated programmes such as "Agenda 2015" or "Agenda 2016 and a half":rolleyes:
THey enver take staunch measrues, theya re blocked in their own huge layesr of bureaucracy (tackling a problem is done with emasures, not like in the EU with 1785 pages of useless talk written down).
THe jsutice system is also absurd, a murderer 17 years of age is likely to get a 7 month sentence, even though he might be 29 at the end of his 12 year trial (no problem he will not spend the 12 years in jail during trial, he will not be considered dangerous for a mere murder).
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/995
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1130
I rest my case!
Belgium is the best example of Europoltiics gone over the fringe!

[Tibia]

If Israel joins EU. Then it would lead open to Morrocoo and other former european colonies that have a very close tie to EU.

Also remember. Turkey who has been a immense part of European culture for thousands of years and has a part of it's land in Europe has a hard time to join. Because they are a muslim majority. Simply EU have a hard time to consider any non christian countries has a good applicants. Even though Turkey is a secular country. They have to go through alot of bull.

[Romain]

Israel is not Christina, yes, but it is part of the Judeo-Christian mentality environment. THis has nothing to do with religion. Turkey's problem is it's lack of comitement to secularity at the people's level. Israel is thoroughly Western in many aspects.

[Tibia]

Israel is not Christina, yes, but it is part of the Judeo-Christian mentality environment. THis has nothing to do with religion. Turkey's problem is it's lack of comitement to secularity at the people's level. Israel is thoroughly Western in many aspects.

Lack of commitment? They kick people out of Unis for wearing Hijabs. A judge got killed because of the secular laws. His friends got injured. Is that lack of commitment? Israel isn't even secular. Everything about it jewish this jewish that.

[KettleWhistle]

Lack of commitment? They kick people out of Unis for wearing Hijabs. A judge got killed because of the secular laws. His friends got injured. Is that lack of commitment? Israel isn't even secular. Everything about it jewish this jewish that.

Israel is secular. Jewish this and Jewish that is more traditional Jewish than religious Jewish. Much like Germany has German this and German that, or Ireland, Irish this and Irish that.

Either way, Jews are not European people, and should stay far and away from Europe.

[Faysal]

Israel will join the middle east and integrate in it. Maybe Europe too, in the long run. Not vice versa.

Greetings!

[Faysal]

Israel is not Christina, yes, but it is part of the Judeo-Christian mentality environment. THis has nothing to do with religion. Turkey's problem is it's lack of comitement to secularity at the people's level. Israel is thoroughly Western in many aspects.

Israel is thoroughly eastern, in many aspects. Thats where its roots lie. Soon, the demographic dominance in Israel will shift to the sephardim. Then we will witness a change in political relations with the muslim world.

We will welcome the sons of Isaac back in our arms, and there isnt anyone who can stop that.

[Womble]

Israel is thoroughly eastern, in many aspects. Thats where its roots lie. Soon, the demographic dominance in Israel will shift to the sephardim. Then we will witness a change in political relations with the muslim world.

We will welcome the sons of Isaac back in our arms, and there isnt anyone who can stop that.
Except for the sons of Isaac, who won't be too eager to be back in your arms.

You'd be surprised how many Iraqi Jews still remember the Farhud, how many Moroccan Jews still care for those murdered in Oujda and Djerada. Forced conversions of children in Yemen, declaring Jews the "enemies of the state" in Egypt, massacre of Jews in Aleppo, Syria- they remember it all, Faysal. None of them want to go back.

Knowing the political leanings of the Mizrahi Jews in Israel, I can safely say that if a Mizrahi takeover will indeed take place, you, my friend Faysal, will be in for quite a few nasty surprises.

[Tibia]

Israel is secular. Jewish this and Jewish that is more traditional Jewish than religious Jewish. Much like Germany has German this and German that, or Ireland, Irish this and Irish that.

Either way, Jews are not European people, and should stay far and away from Europe.


The only diffrence is that judaism is a religon (when i wrote jewish i actually meant both the ethnic and religous meaning). All European countries keep the religous affairs away from the state so that special groups won't get special treatment e.g. Haredi.

[KettleWhistle]

The only diffrence is that judaism is a religon (when i wrote jewish i actually meant both the ethnic and religous meaning). All European countries keep the religous affairs away from the state so that special groups won't get special treatment e.g. Haredi.

Not true. Many European countries have state religions. And Judiasm is religion, and nothing more. Majoirity of both Jews worldwide, and the Israelis are secular.

[Kenneth]

Lack of commitment? They kick people out of Unis for wearing Hijabs. A judge got killed because of the secular laws. His friends got injured. Is that lack of commitment? Israel isn't even secular. Everything about it jewish this jewish that.

They kick people out of Unis for wearing any form of religious wear, and rightly so, keep religion out of education.

[Faysal]

Except for the sons of Isaac, who won't be too eager to be back in your arms.

You'd be surprised how many Iraqi Jews still remember the Farhud, how many Moroccan Jews still care for those murdered in Oujda and Djerada. Forced conversions of children in Yemen, declaring Jews the "enemies of the state" in Egypt, massacre of Jews in Aleppo, Syria- they remember it all, Faysal. None of them want to go back.

Knowing the political leanings of the Mizrahi Jews in Israel, I can safely say that if a Mizrahi takeover will indeed take place, you, my friend Faysal, will be in for quite a few nasty surprises.

Shalom Womble.

I know about the radical fundamentalist party KAKH, consists mostly of Moroccans. And I know about the INCIDENTS of Farhud, Oujda, Djerada, Yemen, Egypt, Halab and Syria. Incidents, in a relatively peacefull history of coexistence of Jews and muslims during the last 1400 years.

I hope they wont forget that too, and I am sure they wont.

Of coarse none would want to go back; Israel has higher standard of living. Very logical. But the muslim world is developing, and so will human thought.

If the mizrakhi will take over, yes, i would be in for some nasty surprises. I remember Kakh. But I will accept that as a side-consequence of all positive things which would happen. That would certainly compensate.

Its logical to state that shared cultural and ethnic elements, will bring people together. This is even the case in India and Pakistan. The countries are hostile to eachother, yet share very close ethnic, historical and cultural bonds. The people watch eachothers movies, sing eachothers songs, eat eachothers foods and wear eachothers clothes. The one thing they need is development in education and social areas before the inevitable logical thing is gonna happen: growing nearer to eachother.

Cant wait till the Mizrakhim take over.

[Faysal]

They kick people out of Unis for wearing any form of religious wear, and rightly so, keep religion out of education.

Education should be open for all, or people will develop parallel education next to that of the state. Thats not what we want to see happening (it already does)

Thats why (very understandable), Turkey is rethinking its stance toward education-laws.

Greetings

[KettleWhistle]

I know about the radical fundamentalist party KAKH, consists mostly of Moroccans.

You mean Kach? Kach was not a radical party.


And I know about the INCIDENTS of Farhud, Oujda, Djerada, Yemen, Egypt, Halab and Syria. Incidents, in a relatively peacefull history of coexistence of Jews and muslims during the last 1400 years.

LOL. A peaceful coexistence as second-class citizens, in foreign countries. Who'd ever want to trade that!


I remember Kakh.
You remember what? You ever met with them? You studied their political platform?

[Womble]

Shalom Womble.

I know about the radical fundamentalist party KAKH, consists mostly of Moroccans.
Not true. The Kach is a mixed bunch, and I was not talking about them. I was talking about the Shas party, the leading representative of the Sephardim in Israel, and about the Likud, whose voting base is largely Sephardic.


And I know about the INCIDENTS of Farhud, Oujda, Djerada, Yemen, Egypt, Halab and Syria. Incidents, in a relatively peacefull history of coexistence of Jews and muslims during the last 1400 years.
Not true again. Were I to post a full list of "incidents" going all the way back to the beginnings of Islam, this board would have run out of storage space.


Of coarse none would want to go back; Israel has higher standard of living. Very logical. But the muslim world is developing, and so will human thought.
But people still love their home more than the richer and better places God knows where. And Israel is home.


Its logical to state that shared cultural and ethnic elements, will bring people together. This is even the case in India and Pakistan. The countries are hostile to eachother, yet share very close ethnic, historical and cultural bonds. The people watch eachothers movies, sing eachothers songs, eat eachothers foods and wear eachothers clothes. The one thing they need is development in education and social areas before the inevitable logical thing is gonna happen: growing nearer to eachother.
You don't need a Mizrahi takeover for those things. They already exist in Israel in abundance. Israeli schoolchidren study Arabic at schools, they learn Arab poetry, both medieval and modern poets such as Mahmood Darwish- but tell me, in how many Arab countries do the schoolchildren study Haim Nachman Bialik or Shai Agnon? In how many Arab states is studying Hebrew an option for a schoolboy?

[Womble]

By the way, Faysal's fantasies about the "Mizrahi takeover" originate from one of the strategies of destroying Israel that the PLO had been considering for some time- fostering sub-ethnic tensions within Israel by inciting the Eastern Jews against the Ashkenazim. The strategy was proposed by one Mahmoud Abbas a.k.a. Abu Mazen, had a short-term success with the formation of the gang of political hoodlooms known as HaPanterim HaShkhorim (Israeli Black Panthers, blatantly stealing the template of the African American Black Panther Party)- and failed miserably when the majority of the Mizrahim showed the Black Panthers the middle finger and voted en masse for the European Jew called Menachem Begin.

Besides, what kind of a Mizrahi takeover are you talking about? We've got a Mizrahi defense minister, a Mizrahi president, just a short while ago we had a Mizrahi Foreign minister- for crying out loud, how many Mizrahim should there be in the government for it to constitute a "takeover"?

Not to mention that the next community to "take over the government" are much more likely to be the Russian Jews. They are better educated and less invested into strictly sectoral parties.

[Faysal]

By the way, Faysal's fantasies about the "Mizrahi takeover" originate from one of the strategies of destroying Israel that the PLO had been considering for some time- fostering sub-ethnic tensions within Israel by inciting the Eastern Jews against the Ashkenazim. The strategy was proposed by one Mahmoud Abbas a.k.a. Abu Mazen, had a short-term success with the formation of the gang of political hoodlooms known as HaPanterim HaShkhorim (Israeli Black Panthers, blatantly stealing the template of the African American Black Panther Party)- and failed miserably when the majority of the Mizrahim showed the Black Panthers the middle finger and voted en masse for the European Jew called Menachem Begin.

Besides, what kind of a Mizrahi takeover are you talking about? We've got a Mizrahi defense minister, a Mizrahi president, just a short while ago we had a Mizrahi Foreign minister- for crying out loud, how many Mizrahim should there be in the government for it to constitute a "takeover"?

Not to mention that the next community to "take over the government" are much more likely to be the Russian Jews. They are better educated and less invested into strictly sectoral parties.

U are making an anti-semite of me. I dont want the destruction of Israel, I hope for a better understanding government due to a powershift to the Mizrakhim.

To constitute a takeover, u dont even necessarily need mizrakhim in the government, u need mizrakhi mentality to take over.

I hope Ashkenazim and Mizrakhim will live together in Israel in harmony and never fight eachother. I just hope the influence of the Mizrakhim culture and way of thinking, prevails over the european one. That would be better for the whole region, I think.

Shalom

[Faysal]

You mean Kach? Kach was not a radical party.

Maybe not according to the radicals :)



LOL. A peaceful coexistence as second-class citizens, in foreign countries. Who'd ever want to trade that!

Well.. If u can back that up with proof, I will be most happy to change my view. Unfortunitely for u, history testifies against u.



You remember what? You ever met with them? You studied their political platform?

Yes I did. I am a student of political sciences and I am very in for every subject concerning the middle east.

Greetszzz and please dont hate me!

[Faysal]

Not true. The Kach is a mixed bunch, and I was not talking about them. I was talking about the Shas party, the leading representative of the Sephardim in Israel, and about the Likud, whose voting base is largely Sephardic.

I meant shass. Sorry, my mistake (look I apologized for my mistake)



Not true again. Were I to post a full list of "incidents" going all the way back to the beginnings of Islam, this board would have run out of storage space.

Post them! I challenge u.



But people still love their home more than the richer and better places God knows where. And Israel is home.

There is a proverb which says "where there is bread, there is home".

There are many Jews who never want to live in Israel, many Jews even re-migrate to other countries their parents and grandparents came from. (including Arab countries, like Morocco)

Now, remigrating of Jews to Arab countries isnt happening that mucht, but to the west they do. Reason is: Better economical possibilities, more stabile societies and environment. Please, lets stay realistic. I would never want to live in Morocco, even if it is "home". But if Morocco would surpass the Netherlands in wealth, development, economical and military power, I wouldnt stay here for even 1 more day. Thats how humans are.



You don't need a Mizrahi takeover for those things. They already exist in Israel in abundance. Israeli schoolchidren study Arabic at schools, they learn Arab poetry, both medieval and modern poets such as Mahmood Darwish- but tell me, in how many Arab countries do the schoolchildren study Haim Nachman Bialik or Shai Agnon? In how many Arab states is studying Hebrew an option for a schoolboy?

Arab countries are still backward in comparison with Israel. Now if u would be objective and honest, u wouldnt even make this ridiculous example. Millions of Arabs are illiterate, they cant even read Arabic. Why learn Hebrew? And if the Arab countries get literate, they would first learn Turkish or Persian before Hebrew.

Aval r'oo, hineh yoshev bakhur arav she lomed et ha-lishon ha-aravi :)

World is really changing, isnt it :)

I am learning Hebrew and how do I get treated? Look at your reactions. I am here to build bridges, not to build walls. And yeah, I might have different opinions and ideas concerning the Middle East or Islam or Arabs. So what? Shouldnt that be possible? Thats no reason to be hostile.

I fully accept Israels right to exist, I as an Arab, dont even find total Israeli control over Jerusalem a problem. If it was up to me, you may even have the westbank, Golan and gaza and even the Sinai. I am not stupid to see that Palestinian nationalism is just as artificial and illegitimate as any other kind of nationalism is in that region after the fall of the Ottomans.

I sincerely believe that Palestinians dont exist; at least not in the ethnic sense. Old news though, the same counts for Israelis, Moroccans, Algerians, Tunesians, Kuweitis, Iraqis and so forth and so forth.

There should be lots of room for us to reshape the middle east, old barriers of thought and artificial structures must be open for cirticism and editing.

Why are u all so hostile?

[KettleWhistle]

Well.. If u can back that up with proof, I will be most happy to change my view. Unfortunitely for u, history testifies against u.
Violence Against Jews

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands were able to live in relative peace and thrive culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death. Jews were generally viewed with contempt by their Muslim neighbors; peaceful coexistence between the two groups involved the subordination and degradation of the Jews.
When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada (http://www.israelforum.com/board/../vjw/Granada.html), Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.
Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez (http://www.israelforum.com/board/../vjw/Fez.html) slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html).(6) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_6_)
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html) in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/libyajews.html) in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/algjews.html), where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html), where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_7_)
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues (http://www.israelforum.com/board/../Judaism/shul.html) were enacted in Egypt (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/egjews.html) and Syria (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/syrianjews.html) (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html) (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/yemenjews.html) (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/yemenjews.html) (1165 and 1678), Morocco (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html) (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html) (1333 and 1344).(8) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_8_)
As distinguished Orientalist G.E. von Grunebaum has written:


It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.(9) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_9_)
The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/algjews.html), Tunisia (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/tunisjews.html), Egypt (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/egjews.html), Libya (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/libyajews.html) and Morocco (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html)) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/morocjews.html), which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire (http://www.israelforum.com/board/../History/Ottoman.html).(10) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_10_)
By the twentieth century, the status of the dhimmi in Muslim lands had not significantly improved. H.E.W. Young, British Vice Consul in Mosul, wrote in 1909:


The attitude of the Muslims toward the Christians and the Jews is that of a master towards slaves, whom he treats with a certain lordly tolerance so long as they keep their place. Any sign of pretension to equality is promptly repressed.(11) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_11_)
The danger for Jews became even greater as a showdown approached in the UN (http://www.israelforum.com/board/../UN/untoc.html) over partition (http://www.israelforum.com/board/../History/parttoc.html) in 1947. The Syrian delegate, Faris el-Khouri, warned: "Unless the Palestine problem is settled, we shall have difficulty in protecting and safeguarding the Jews in the Arab world."(12) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_12_)
More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940's in Iraq (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/iraqijews.html), Libya (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/libyajews.html), Egypt (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/egjews.html), Syria (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/syrianjews.html) and Yemen (http://www.israelforum.com/jsource/anti-semitism/yemenjews.html).(13) (http://www.israelforum.com/board/#N_13_) This helped trigger the mass exodus of Jews from Arab countries.

from http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geutipma5EWw8Bw6BXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE2NmZmNTZ oBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANGNTYxX zc3/SIG=13b36iro3/EXP=1152379689/**http%3a//www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html


Yes I did. I am a student of political sciences and I am very in for every subject concerning the middle east.And what's so "radical" about Kach's propositions for settling the Arab-Israeli conflict?

[Mira]

Yehuda Bassel, the soldier who just died, was an identical twin of a friend of mine who is Palestinian, though my friend insists that he is in fact better looking. I emailed him Yehuda's pic: http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D060706/248repro_limor.jpg and my friend responded by saying that he saw the picture earlier and it really affected him. I guess when you are staring at a face that is supposed to be the enemy's face, but that face looks just like your own, it really messes with your head. People are irrational like that.

My mom is Sephardi. Her family comes from Aleppo. She would be more "at home" in a room full of Arab mothers with all their cultural idiosyncrasies than in a room full of wealthy Reform anglicized Jewish women. She would say that she understands how to act around the former better, even when they don't like you, she knows that they will still be hospitable and good hosts. The latter, if they don't like you, can't help being rude. They will ignore and starve you to death to get you to leave their home.

So really it's about finding comfort in what's familiar, but my mom would gladly trade all of that familiarity for peace of mind. The Arabs will treat you like an angel in their home and then stab you in the back when you are walking out the door if they think that you have done them wrong. They will continue to negotiate with you even after the deal is done. And they will remember everything that has ever transpired between you and them their entire lives and instill their memories in their children and their children's children. There are some Jews who either love or hate Arabs and there is no middle ground. The same is true for how Arabs deal with Jews. My mom neither loves or hates Arabs. I guess that's also something that comes from having a better sense about a culture. You appreciate the good and you understand and accept the limitations and the bad. No familiarity and you run the risk of being either a hater or dangerously optimistic and naive.

My mom has no desire to even visit Syria let alone move there should the opportunity ever arise, which it won't. Now my Palestinian friend says he likes half of me, the Sephardi half. I've explained to him in the past that it's not rational, that he won't find many Sephardim in Peace Now or marching along the Palestinians at all the rallies he goes to just like the Jews won't find many Arabs marching with them to end sucide bombings. My mother's family all think those Ashkenazi peaceniks are dangerously naive; naive because they don't know better, they are still despite it all, culturally ignorant about Arabs. I view my friend like a brother. I could live with him in the "holy land" and grow old having him as my neighbor. But I wouldn't want to live near a few of his cousins who are a bunch of racist jerks. They could go to Gaza.

[Womble]

I meant shass. Sorry, my mistake (look I apologized for my mistake)
Confusing Shas for Kach is one hell of a mistake to make:p


Post them! I challenge u.
Just go to Wikipedia and run a search on "History of the Jews in..." and insert an Arab or Muslim country of choice. There is literally no end to what I could post here. The dhimmi thing alone is bad enough (sell it in any way you want, but the Jews under the dhimmi regulations were prohibited from doing the most basic things like riding horses or carrying weapons to defend themselves, and were discriminated against by courts and by the common people). During the reign of the Safavids in Persia the Jews were prohibited from going out in the rain or snow, least their "impurity" would be accidentally washed onto a Muslim. The bloody rule of the Almohads and Moulay Rashid in Morocco, Al-Hakim in Egypt, pogroms upon pogroms, blood libels, institutionalized mistreatment... The Jews in the Muslim lands may have been treated better on average than in the Christian world- but "better" is a relative term.


There is a proverb which says "where there is bread, there is home".
And there's a proverb which says "There's no place like home".


There are many Jews who never want to live in Israel, many Jews even re-migrate to other countries their parents and grandparents came from. (including Arab countries, like Morocco)
"Many"? Just how many, precisely? Morocco used to have 250,000 Jews- today they have about 7000, most of them elderly. How many of those are returnees from Israel? Take my word for it: VERY few.


Now, remigrating of Jews to Arab countries isnt happening that mucht, but to the west they do. Reason is: Better economical possibilities, more stabile societies and environment.
There's a whole lot of reasons. Many of the people emigrating from Israel are actually non-Jews who came to Israel seeking a fat life and went on to where life was fatter. For example, out of 68,000 immigrants from the former Soviet Union who have left Israel so far, absolute majority were individuals not registered as Jews. The Jewish immigrants to Israel tend to stay.


Please, lets stay realistic. I would never want to live in Morocco, even if it is "home". But if Morocco would surpass the Netherlands in wealth, development, economical and military power, I wouldnt stay here for even 1 more day. Thats how humans are.
It's not how all humans are- otherwise the entire population of Saudi Arabia would have filed asylum applications in Canada.


Arab countries are still backward in comparison with Israel. Now if u would be objective and honest, u wouldnt even make this ridiculous example.
This is a very valid counter-example if you want to talk about who is the real stumbling block in the Arab-Israeli relations. Israel teachers its kids Arab culture; the Arabs do not reciprocate.


Aval r'oo, hineh yoshev bakhur arav she lomed et ha-lishon ha-aravi :)
And makes the most peculiar mistakes. "Aravi" is "ARAB". Hebrew would've been "Yivri". And "R'oo" is SO ancient.


I am learning Hebrew and how do I get treated? Look at your reactions. I am here to build bridges, not to build walls. And yeah, I might have different opinions and ideas concerning the Middle East or Islam or Arabs. So what? Shouldnt that be possible? Thats no reason to be hostile.
It so happens that the way you chose to deliver some of your ideas appeared hostile. Your previous posts created the impression that "we will welcome the sons of Isaac back in our arms" implied "after we destroy Israel".


If it was up to me, you may even have the westbank, Golan and gaza and even the Sinai.
Perhaps Kettle would like that. Myself, I am wondering why such a small country would need such a big trouble.


Why are u all so hostile?
Perhaps because we are accustomed to all sorts of trolls dropping by from Ummah.com and similar extremist forums. We get unbelievable visitors every once in a while, and at times people tend to lash out at anyone who, rightly or wrongly, appears to be "another one of those".

Of course, there's a few people here who simply love to hate. Every forum has a few of those, I imagine.

[Ammon]

Israel into EU? I think that would worst thing we could do. Only problems, no benefits.

[KettleWhistle]

If it was up to me, you may even have the westbank, Golan and gaza and even the Sinai.
Perhaps Kettle would like that. Myself, I am wondering why such a small country would need such a big trouble.

Because, aside from Sinai, it is our homeland. And the land is no trouble. The hostile Arab population is. Which is why they need to be given the boot to Arab countries where they can live on their native land, among their own people, in harmony and equality.

[Faysal]

Confusing Shas for Kach is one hell of a mistake to make:p

SORRY!



Just go to Wikipedia and run a search on "History of the Jews in..." and insert an Arab or Muslim country of choice. There is literally no end to what I could post here. The dhimmi thing alone is bad enough (sell it in any way you want, but the Jews under the dhimmi regulations were prohibited from doing the most basic things like riding horses or carrying weapons to defend themselves, and were discriminated against by courts and by the common people). During the reign of the Safavids in Persia the Jews were prohibited from going out in the rain or snow, least their "impurity" would be accidentally washed onto a Muslim. The bloody rule of the Almohads and Moulay Rashid in Morocco, Al-Hakim in Egypt, pogroms upon pogroms, blood libels, institutionalized mistreatment... The Jews in the Muslim lands may have been treated better on average than in the Christian world- but "better" is a relative term.

Ok, I agree.



And there's a proverb which says "There's no place like home".

No place like the place with the scent of bread :)



"Many"? Just how many, precisely? Morocco used to have 250,000 Jews- today they have about 7000, most of them elderly. How many of those are returnees from Israel? Take my word for it: VERY few.

Ok, true.


There's a whole lot of reasons. Many of the people emigrating from Israel are actually non-Jews who came to Israel seeking a fat life and went on to where life was fatter. For example, out of 68,000 immigrants from the former Soviet Union who have left Israel so far, absolute majority were individuals not registered as Jews. The Jewish immigrants to Israel tend to stay.

Whaaaat?? I didnt know that.



It's not how all humans are- otherwise the entire population of Saudi Arabia would have filed asylum applications in Canada.

They cant leave!



This is a very valid counter-example if you want to talk about who is the real stumbling block in the Arab-Israeli relations. Israel teachers its kids Arab culture; the Arabs do not reciprocate.

True. How sad it is...


And makes the most peculiar mistakes. "Aravi" is "ARAB". Hebrew would've been "Yivri". And "R'oo" is SO ancient.

Hey I am trying! Do u know Arabic?? No? But I do learn Hebrew! Hmm.. Was that a mistake?

Ha-lishon ha-aravi, isnt that correct? What should it be then? R'oo is ancient? Hahah thats maybe cause I learn hebrew from language courses which get into the literary very much.



It so happens that the way you chose to deliver some of your ideas appeared hostile. Your previous posts created the impression that "we will welcome the sons of Isaac back in our arms" implied "after we destroy Israel".

I never meant that. I meant that peace between us, is better than destruction, cause destruction will be there for both of us (more for u than us) Israel doesnt have to be destroyed, on the contrary. Its in our benefit that your strong and alive. Why cant u believe I am sincere?



Perhaps Kettle would like that. Myself, I am wondering why such a small country would need such a big trouble.

Why trouble? If muslims get more spiritual and less worldly, it shouldnt be a problem.



Perhaps because we are accustomed to all sorts of trolls dropping by from Ummah.com and similar extremist forums. We get unbelievable visitors every once in a while, and at times people tend to lash out at anyone who, rightly or wrongly, appears to be "another one of those".

I understand.


Of course, there's a few people here who simply love to hate. Every forum has a few of those, I imagine

Hmm Ok.

[Faysal]

Because, aside from Sinai, it is our homeland. And the land is no trouble. The hostile Arab population is. Which is why they need to be given the boot to Arab countries where they can live on their native land, among their own people, in harmony and equality.

Take it if u want! I be happy to defend your cause.

In my opinion, Sinai is your mount Ararat.

[Tibia]

The Jews in the Muslim lands may have been treated better on average than in the Christian world- but "better" is a relative term.

On average? Oh spank me :eek: . I don't remember the muslims sending the jews into a camp and systematticaly killing them.


If those jews want to return to their ancesteral homelands. They should be allowed. Just like the greeks who lived in Turkeyand the turks who lived in greece should be allowed to live where they used to live.


Just has the palestinians should be allowed to liver where they lived. But then again we all know it won't happen. The jews won't give up Israel. The arabs will persecute the jews and the greeks/turks would protest about the greeks/turks.

Thats how life works.

[KettleWhistle]

If those jews want to return to their ancesteral homelands.
The Land of Israel is Jews' ancestral homeland. Everything else is foreign--either Diaspora (when they live there willingly, like in the U.S., and some places in Europe) or exile.

[Womble]

On average? Oh spank me :eek: . I don't remember the muslims sending the jews into a camp and systematticaly killing them.
They did, actually- to the German camps. Read up on what went on in Tunisia and Morocco during the 1940-s.

And if the systematic pogroms don't count for "systematically killing them, I don't know what else does.

[Ammon]

Does it matter?

[KettleWhistle]

Does it matter?Yes.

[Khazar]

Gilgamesh
BTW, OUR olive oil is superior then anybody elses. Greek oilive oil should be banned for human consamption.


A toast to that :p

Infact, Olive's natural beginnings are Israel and the Levant region.

Israel doesn't need the EU, the EU needs Israel, they're slowly decaying away because of their stubborn "old Europe" minded attitudes anyway, people in Germany and Holland arn't exactly extatic with the Euro hehe.

Us-Uk-Israel-Turkey and Turkic countries is a better UNION :D Turks and Jews have never had a problem since they met and became bro's in Khazar Empire, its a shame some Arabs have adopted paranoid, nonsense European stories about Jews. If you look at the ridiculous it mostly stems from Medieval Europe, you know the Blood Libels, that Jews eat little kids, that theyre to blame for everything in the world. Arabs didn't really have problems with Jews before and rejected these idiotic stories, hopefully they wont let it seep deep into their society.

[AE35]

leftist machines will infest Israel with even more arabs and plus add millions of Africans. Stay far away from the EU israel. Look at Denmark, Germany, or Belgium. They have lost their national identity becasue of the brainwashing of the left and the flood of africans, turks, and arabs.

Well, I wouldn't know about loss of nationality, somewhat maybe. The
statistics regarding crimerates are pretty much through the roof.

But my real thought is: We are being told that we should be happy that
we're going to be a multiethnic society(which has come PRETTY damn fast.
I didn't know what a muslim was when I was a child! We had one boy from
Morocco out of 30ish students. Now, the same classes had a penetration
of over 80%, so something happened really fast in 15-20 years. But all that
is well.

But my concern is more that idea of my being told to embrace that idea
of a multiethnic society, and that is fine, but it seems that it produces a
mis-balance in the world....because the middle east doesn't get a multiethnic
society...we do, but they stay the same. Am I being coherent? Yes, I KNOW
the reason "that's because we're not moving to the arab world", but I'm
not very interested in the cause, but the effect.

So, the western countries are becoming more and more arab, but the
arab countries are staying the same.

In my country there are about 6000 jews, and 200.000+ arabs. That might
explain why our news and schools are very anti-Israel. Maybe if the numbers
were reversed, it would be the other way.

Nicholas

[Theodikritis]

Gilgamesh said


BTW, OUR olive oil is superior then anybody elses. Greek oilive oil should be banned for human consamption.

Sure it is:rolleyes:

Greek Olive Oil and Wine is the best.


A toast to that :p

Infact, Olive's natural beginnings are Israel and the Levant region.

Israel doesn't need the EU, the EU needs Israel, they're slowly decaying away because of their stubborn "old Europe" minded attitudes anyway, people in Germany and Holland arn't exactly extatic with the Euro hehe.

Us-Uk-Israel-Turkey and Turkic countries is a better UNION :D Turks and Jews have never had a problem since they met and became bro's in Khazar Empire, its a shame some Arabs have adopted paranoid, nonsense European stories about Jews. If you look at the ridiculous it mostly stems from Medieval Europe, you know the Blood Libels, that Jews eat little kids, that theyre to blame for everything in the world. Arabs didn't really have problems with Jews before and rejected these idiotic stories, hopefully they wont let it seep deep into their society.

Khazars where allied to the Byzantine Empire, they formed the Emperors personal gaurd, played a very prominent role in the defeat of Persia by Heraclius, and they fought the Turks to, the last Byzantine Soldiers to fall at Manzikert where the elite khazar gaurds of Romanus Diogenes.

[user954651]

No way.

[Anatolian]

Playing in European Champions League with football teams is enough I think..

[Floyd]

Oy vey, what a joke. I found this news amusing when I read about it on Ha'aretz.

Of course it would have some benefits but the EU wouldn't even consider it as long as Israel is an occupying power.
In a way Israel is an outcast from everything. It won't be accepted in a million years into the Arab league and since it isn't in any way physically apart of Europe, I don't know how this "request" would be responded to.

Me to:D I think that they would be a spy for America. No one is saying it in public, but EU is na equvivalent to USA. Right now, economic war is going on betwen these two. Example: Airbus vs Boeing...

[user954651]

EU is na equvivalent to USA. Right now, economic war is going on betwen these two. Example: Airbus vs Boeing...

Economic war?!

It is called competition, it is a natural and healthy part of all free-market economies.

Your idiocy is astounding - you deserve an award.

[ssrt]

Why would Israel want to be reliant on Europe?

They mustn't join.

[Floyd]

Economic war?!

It is called competition, it is a natural and healthy part of all free-market economies.



It's very healthy when sabotaged concorde hits the ground. But hey, maybe the terrorist crushed it. LOL


Your idiocy is astounding - you deserve an award.

Your vocabulary shows that it's other way around:D

[Pandora]

Evgeny,

First, I've NO problem with Africans Indians Turks, or Asians. They are all good people in general, who believe in: "live and let live". The believe in rule of law, business, education and hard work. Our problem, unless you haven't heard, is that we are ALREADY flooded with Arabs of the wrong kind.

However, since you hate Africans so much... enjoy your life in Europe.

Europeans are those who destroy Europe and making in uninhabitable: by their hate and racism.

As for alliance with Russia... ROFL!!!
Not in a gazillion years! Only the Germans we hate more!
Wow !!! That's real nasty !! You hate people you don't even know !! Arabs of the wrong kind ?? Were'nt these same Arabs hanging around when Israel was created ?? As for hating Germany??? The Nazi party has been illegal for a very long time,they have repented for thier sins, the average German fells guilty about the whole thing !! You are consumed by your hatred and contribute to "Jews of the wrong kind" retaliation. Obviously "people of the wrong kind" should all be kept together to sort it out.There would be less of them.

[European2006]

We have criteria that all applicants for EU membership have to meet. Turkey's occupation of Northern Cyprus could well scupper its EU-membership bid. I have no objection in principle to Israeli membership provided the territorial disputes are resolved first. Otherwise the answer is "No". And no objections are not because of anti-semitism, despite the predictable howls that will claim otherwise! Not being sycophantic towards Israel (unlike the US) does not an anti-semitic make! :)

[Gregory]

Israel is in the first step to joint EU and NATO.
Avigdor Liberman – the minister of strategically security planing of Israel said that the main goal of Israel for about 5 years to joint EU and NATO.
I fight for this idea realization in many forums from 2004.
Thanks Ahmadi Nidzad, thanks Moshe Kacaf criminal deal, thanks 12 % of Knecet members criminal deals, thanks Israel defeating in Lebanon war 2 it became clear this simple idea, that it is impossible to Israel today to live independently and separately from others high developed democratic states.
In 5 of marh the Israel foreign minister Sipi Livni will begin the conversation with EU about given Israel the same status in Israel – EU relationship as between Switzerland and EU or Norvegia and EU.
With 10 – 15 years lateness Israel stays in right way – to become the one of equal rights states of UNETED STATES OF EUROPE.
GOD!
Please give Israel to reach this goal!

[KettleWhistle]

Israel is in the first step to joint EU and NATO.
Avigdor Liberman – the minister of strategically security planing of Israel said that the main goal of Israel for about 5 years to joint EU and NATO.
You've got a source for this?

[Justcurious]

Playing in European Champions League with football teams is enough I think..

And don't forget the Eurovision Song Contest!

[Mediocrates]

I saw that recently too - forget where though.

[Gregory]

You've got a source for this?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/808111.html

[Public_Enemy]

Beware of EU :

Stormfront White Nationalist Community

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

Threads: 304,351, Posts: 3,621,054, Members: 103,056

[Gunther]

The EU, a good idea, good concept, so far in practice a very bad idea. I probably dislike the current EU more than any of you.http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/865

[Mediocrates]

Still it remains a bad idea. Israel is ostensibly part of the EU 'neighborhood' program and that would seem to be enough. Just because you might share some of the values of someone else doesn't mean there's an advantage to becoming them. Otherwise everyone in the WTO would cease to be a nation too. No. There's no upside to being shackled by the EU's laws on debt, defense spending, immigration, monetary policy and such. Just to get 'allies'? What did the EU do for their allies in Madrid when the trains exploded? And as for NATO? Why should the IDF do all the heavy lifting? Who is going to run in help them? Belgium? Lithuania? There is a NATO program called the Mediterranean Dialog. It is linked to the OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) and includes Algeria, Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Mauritanian, Morocco, Tunisia. But what good it's done is....? I mean do you see Algeria and Spain even speaking on Israel's behalf against Iranian threats?

[Gunther]

NATO no longer has a reason to exist so their is no reason to join that either. The only action that NATO has done since the fall of the USSR is bomb Serbia, not only was the action one that was not in the US's interest, but carried out almost exclusivly by us against a nation that previosly we had friendly relations with to politicaly please other nations (Germany, Turkey etc). It has been an obstecle in getting friendly relations with Russia, and its only purpose which was combating communism is gone, NATO will probably fade away out of exestence.

[Mediocrates]

No NATO will probably be repurposed as the sole EU military force. Now, whatever function that serves is anyone's guess but there it is. It will subsume all national armies, navies and air forces in EU states. Otherwise none of those countries, not France, the UK, Germany or Italy have any excuse to even spend what they do on defense. And as for the rest of them they barely have any standing national forces at all. So its in their best interest to be protected under NATO's umbrella. In either case, the EU will probably adopt a neutral stance in the next 2 decades. They will do this in order to pull in Sweden, Switzerland and Ireland. And NATO will cease to have any function beyond territorial defense anyhow. They will jointly build down their navies into coastal defense forces and reduce their air power by half or more. By mid century it's unclear whether EU will have any formal standing military power at all, conventional or nuclear. This will leave Russia, China, USA, Taiwan, India, Pakistan, Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, Israel & Iran as the only countries with any standing force that can be projected outward. South America, most of SE Asia, all of sub Saharan Africa including South Africa will be forced to demilitarize and build up their internal forces, national police forces, national guards, internal security services etc to hedge their own bets on internal societal collapses and uprisings bound to occur with increasing frequency. By mid century it won't be a matter of who wants to be in the EU so much as how long before the EU joins a middle eastern, west asian coalition of Islamic states who still hold the dwindling oil in the world.

[Gunther]

By mid century it won't be a matter of who wants to be in the EU so much as how long before the EU joins a middle eastern, west asian coalition of Islamic states who still hold the dwindling oil in the world.

No, won't happen, eventually things will get to a point where people in Europe won't be able to ignore them. And besides, the country's in Europe with liberal immigration treaty's are all in northern Europe, souther and easter Europe don't.

[Mediocrates]

It will be too late to suddenly take action. These things take an awfully long time to plan for. EUians seems more worried that they're looking at an upside population pyramid and their own pension plans than they are for the political ramifications of having an entire working class generation of people and school children who aren't fully integrated into the European ethos, language or culture. It will look like colonialism in their own countries.

[Yala]

No, won't happen, eventually things will get to a point where people in Europe won't be able to ignore them. And besides, the country's in Europe with liberal immigration treaty's are all in northern Europe, souther and easter Europe don't.

Not quite, Italy has a fairly large immigrant population. Also, instead of confrontation many native Europeans will instead most likely emigrate to the US, Canada and Australia. They are deathly afraid of Islamofascists and of confronting them, this much is obvious to anyone who has been following what's been going on. These people are not like the Jews who were easy to push around, this time it is the Europeans afraid in their own countries. Oh how the mighty have fallen.


Mediocrates:

It will look like colonialism in their own countries.

lol

[Gunther]

The thing you stated are probably true for north western Europe, but not southern and eastern Europe. Do you honestly think that muslims are getting concesions in Poland and Russia? If you talk to people from eastern or southern Europe you will find that their outlook is completely diffferent from people from places such as Belgium or France. If you talk to them you will find thier hole concept of national identity is different. In a place like Belgium its based on good food, art, and minor cultural things that really do not define a nation. Talk to a Pole or a Serb, thier nationhood is almost intirely based on struggle, those are nations with futures.

The rest of Europe will watch thier society's crumble as they abandon what defines them and things will be bad. But once the Muslims reach a certain number thier society will not be able to sustain itself. Europeans will have to abandon thier welfare state and the Muslims will be angry and rise up and be crushed. If the Muslims reach a critical mass even beyond that and the government cannot make the reforms neccasary, then the nation will breack up like Yugoslavia and thier will be a civil war, except since this time the Musmlims will be in NATO country's so no one will be thier to come to their rescue. In my opinion things will have to get worse before they get better.

[Yala]

duplicate

[Yala]

The thing you stated are probably true for north western Europe, but not southern and eastern Europe. Do you honestly think that muslims are getting concesions in Poland and Russia? If you talk to people from eastern or southern Europe you will find that their outlook is completely diffferent from people from places such as Belgium or France. If you talk to them you will find thier hole concept of national identity is different. In a place like Belgium its based on good food, art, and minor cultural things that really do not define a nation. Talk to a Pole or a Serb, thier nationhood is almost intirely based on struggle, those are nations with futures.

The rest of Europe will watch thier society's crumble as they abandon what defines them and things will be bad. But once the Muslims reach a certain number thier society will not be able to sustain itself. Europeans will have to abandon thier welfare state and the Muslims will be angry and rise up and be crushed. If the Muslims reach a critical mass even beyond that and the government cannot make the reforms neccasary, then the nation will breack up like Yugoslavia and thier will be a civil war, except since this time the Musmlims will be in NATO country's so no one will be thier to come to their rescue. In my opinion things will have to get worse before they get better.


I agree. Eastern European countries will not allow themselves to be overcome. Their history is littered xenophobia, ethnic cleansing and civil wars to cleanse the undesirables and this time will be no different.

As you stated the countries with the biggest dilemmas are the North Western countries and I would add Germany. The current percentages of the immigrant population right now are not the issue, it is the growth rates, but here is a guide which while not completely accurate (it is from BBC, after all) should give people a good idea of the situation:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm

But anyhow, all of these countries North, South, East, West, are part of the EU and once you are a citizen of the EU, aren't you free to live in any of the EU countries?

[Gunther]

But anyhow, all of these countries North, South, East, West, are part of the EU and once you are a citizen of the EU, aren't you free to live in any of the EU countries?
In my opinion thier is a big difference between what nations agree to on paper and what they actually do. Also many country's are thinking about seceding from the EU, such as Poland.

I would add Germany.
In my opinion Germany will breack up into three diferent nations. North western Germany will follow suit with most of Western Europe, East Germany has a large amount of eastern European influence and probably will not, Bavaria is completely different both politicaly and cuturaly from the rest of Germany and will be more conservative also.

[FOGOMAINS]

But anyhow, all of these countries North, South, East, West, are part of the EU and once you are a citizen of the EU, aren't you free to live in any of the EU countries?
In my opinion thier is a big difference between what nations agree to on paper and what they actually do. Also many country's are thinking about seceding from the EU, such as Poland.

The newbies have to wait a couple of years to move. Don´t know the exact figures

I would add Germany.
In my opinion Germany will breack up into three diferent nations. North western Germany will follow suit with most of Western Europe, East Germany has a large amount of eastern European influence and probably will not, Bavaria is completely different both politicaly and cuturaly from the rest of Germany and will be more conservative also.
I don´t believe that Germany will break up in different nations. There are discussions about reducing the number of countries (16 at time). But our basic law has to be changed before

[Gunther]

I am guessing that you like the EU because you list it as your location (which would be the same as me listing the Bush administration as my location). By the way, I don't mean to insult your country but I think it will breack apart givin that Germany does not have much of a history of unity and has historicly almost always existed as independent country's.

[FOGOMAINS]

I am guessing that you like the EU because you list it as your location (which would be the same as me listing the Bush administration as my location). By the way, I don't mean to insult your country but I think it will breack apart givin that Germany does not have much of a history of unity and has historicly almost always existed as independent country's.

there are a lot of Hamburgs around the world :) To like the EU is difficult. Based on the horrible past of my country (Holocaust, WWI, WWII and more) i prefer the integration in EU + NATO.

Be sure i´ll never list my location as Merkel adminstration:)

Independent countries wouldn´t survive the globalization

[Gunther]

Holocaust, WWI, WWII and more
What exactly did Germany do that was so bad in WWI, and what is more?

i prefer the integration in EU + NATO.

You prefer having some Belgion having authority over you. I can see wanting military and some economic unity (NATO and limited common market) but do you really want to have to answer to an unelected official from another nation. Also with citizens being able to settle in any part of Europe aren't you afraid that if one country has unlimited immigration that basicly means you have it.

[pizza4theidf]

I think it would be good if Israel joined the EU. It could eventually mean I could travel there without having to change money - assuming we adopt the Euro eventually, of course :D

[bararallu]

I think it would be good if Israel joined the EU. It could eventually mean I could travel there without having to change money - assuming we adopt the Euro eventually, of course :D

No. It will not be good. We are a sovereign country for a reason. It isn't a good reason for the UK to surrender its hard won sovereignty either. I dont want my life run by unelected beaurocrats.

[pizza4theidf]

You've got a point there. If Israel was to join the EU the conditions it imposed might be a little problematic, to say the least. :(

[pizza4theidf]

You know, all those annoying "human rights treaties" and that.

[bararallu]

You know, all those annoying "human rights treaties" and that.

You mean the ones that the Arabs haven't signed on to?

[pizza4theidf]

Yeah, those. But they're not the ones talking about joining the EU. If they were to try, they'd probably find them annoying, too.

[Mediocrates]

The key problem with the EU is that it would open the borders of Israel and the next day 10 million Arabs would move there.

[pizza4theidf]

We've just been through this. There aren't any Arab countries in the EU because they'd also find the human rights treaties annoying, just like Israel. Do try and keep up.

[Mediocrates]

There are hundreds of thousands of militant Arabs IN Euope.

[pizza4theidf]

Lol

[bararallu]

Yeah, those. But they're not the ones talking about joining the EU. If they were to try, they'd probably find them annoying, too.

Who's trying to join the EU, a bunch of vociferous leftists (who are currently bombing Gaza no less :)) that compose a minute minority of the population.... yeah right.

What a bloody joke you are... :lol:

[Mosche]

A really, really, really bad joke!