Black Day for Israel

[humus_sapiens]

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=16939

Statement by Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030523.html

The roadmap was presented to the Government of Israel with a request from the President that it respond with contributions to this document to advance true peace. The United States Government received a response from the Government of Israel, explaining its significant concerns about the roadmap.

The United States shares the view of the Government of Israel that these are real concerns, and will address them fully and seriously in the implementation of the roadmap to fulfill the President's vision of June 24, 2002.

++++
This amorphous fig leaf solution is sheer madness.

This American statement isn't a solution. It is another problem. A source for future American-Israeli friction.

What does it mean to "address them fully and seriously in the implementation of the roadmap"? This when the roadmap itself is not being changed?

Would anyone commit to a defective contract based on the assurance that even though the written text is dangerously defective that when the contract is implements that the problems will be address?

How can they be addressed when the text calls for one thing and "addressing" these problem means doing something completely differently?

Washington has already been bending over backwards to ignore the failure of the Arafat-Mazen government to meet expectations. More of the same can be expected in the future.

Prime Minister Sharon's statement after the announcement indicates a serious failure in his team to think beyond the next 24 hours.

It should be noted that the "response from the Government of Israel, explaining its significant concerns about the roadmap" is not in the public record. A third party - concerned Israeli citizens - have no way of even establishing if what happens in the future does or doesn't address these problems since it can always be claimed that newspaper reports regarding Israel's concerns were no accurate.

If the wording of the statement was coordinated with Sharon the
ramifications are even more serious. It indicates that the true "enemy" of both Bush and Sharon is the Israeli public, hence the move to try and strip it of its ability to effectively monitor and criticize implementation.

Today is a black mark on American Israeli relations and a black mark on Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

The question remains if the ministers who make up his cabinet have the will to put the interest of the nation over personal considerations and stop this madness. This is particularly challenging for ministers who see themselves only a conviction away from the prime minister's slot (unlike other Israeli politicians who tried to separate themselves from illegal fundraising activity, Sharon relied on his sons and developed a paper trail that even the most political attorney general can ignore for long).

To date no vote has been held on this matter by the Cabinet in point of fact, no official discussion has been held by the Cabinet of the roadmap.

Under the law, each minister bears responsibility for the decisions of the Government.

We will see this Sunday if the ministers have the intestinal fortitude to act on that responsibility.

Dr. Aaron Lerner, Director IMRA (Independent Media Review & Analysis)

[takeo]

I think Sharon can't do anything but accept, but of course he'll try, as his predecessor netanyahu, to undermine the peace process as much as possible.

[yehudi]

I said it on the 'enforce peace now thread" : We have a 'launch window' of around 5 month before the US start going into another electoral campaign. If we miss this window, there won't be another opportunity before two years.


- the palestinians cannot live under this situation anymore, they will do reals efforts as they have already done (changing their system of gvt) to get the roadmap going. Of course some organizations, like Hamas will do all they can to oppose peace efforts "unless israel makes importants concessions" they said.

- this israeli gvt is opposed to the roadmap. But they cannot oppose frankly because of US pressure. So they will try to 'make as if they were doing something' and in fact do nothing. Not even really freezing colonization. Anyway, there will be bombings and each bombing will give 3 weeks of delay to the likoud. The 'name of the game' for the Likoud is "drag your feet 5 months"...


Last thing: the owner of this site (Newsguy / Michael Rand) will actively (covertly at best) support this anti-peace policy.

.

[Am Yisrael]

Yehudi, Do you think that this road map will achieve anything? What will it achieve then the other countless roadmaps? Can you not see the reality? I can tell you for certain that the chance that "peace" (peace as in a Palestinian state) will come out of this roadmap is less then 10%. The Palestinian view of Israel hasnt changed since oslo... they still hate Israel. The Israeli view has changed for the worse... they hate Palestinians. Do you think that 2 hates make peace so easily? At least in oslo most of Israel were prepared to give the Palestinians a state.

I think Ariel Sharon knows this, and he is just drifting along with this "peace process" until we grind to a halt again and have another intifada. You are right that Israel doesnt have much of a choice. Lets hope that Israels ecomomy can improve until the next intifada.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
Yehudi, Do you think that this road map will achieve anything? What will it achieve then the other countless roadmaps? Can you not see the reality? I can tell you for certain that the chance that "peace" (peace as in a Palestinian state) will come out of this roadmap is less then 10%. Even if it is as high as 10% it's definitely worth trying.. don't you think so ?

Of course it depends how hard you really try and the coalition in power in israel simply does not want peace, they find this situation soooo simple and confortable. "Terrorism must stop. Failing that we'll produce more". Point.

And you Am Yisrael ? Do you want to try or not? Peace actually requires much more courage than dragging on with the current situation, which has become something of a habit.

However, as Sharonbn said, (and as a poll published in Ha'aretz lately showed) Israel is changing, slowly abandonning democratic values to become more and more of an autoritarian state. Like electing someone not from the military, accepting minorities ... so we're running short of time.




Originally posted by Am Yisrael
The Palestinian view of Israel hasnt changed since oslo... they still hate Israel. The Israeli view has changed for the worse... they hate Palestinians. Do you think that 2 hates make peace so easily? At least in oslo most of Israel were prepared to give the Palestinians a state. You are right, but I keep hoping for the best. I think Oslo failed because things went so far Israel and Palestine are unable to make peace on their own. I hope the quartet will help. The palestinians are ripe. Let the US kick the butt of Israel now to get some action.


.

[takeo]

if the us is really committed to make this roadmap a succes it has a fair chance of succes. the palestinian government is committed to change the current situation and restart the peace-process in order to achieve a palestinian state, they are ready to reign in on terror. (actually they are actively opposing hamas since last month, there are numerous reports of clashes in Palestinian cities between hamas-militants and palestinian police and pa-sympathisants raiding hamas-strongholds)

The problem of course is the israeli unwillingness to change the current situation and accept to negociate with the palestinians, let alone a palestinian state and an end to the settlement activity (some of the parties in power even want to expell the pa and extend settlements). This (along with the palestinian unwillingness/unability to reign in terror groups) caused the failure of Oslo.
So if the americans are really committed to make this plan a succes, they need to pressure both sides. The US has the means and possibility to pressure israel into virtually anything. If the us publicly condamns the Sharon-government and threatens israel with consequences for not committing to its promises the Sharon-government is history.
The road map should include effective controll-mechanisms to ensure that both parties take their responsabilities, and include real dates, facts, etc that need to be accomplished. international observers could be deployed to observe both parties if they have fullfilled their duties (concrete steps of fighting terror for the palestinian side, concrete end to the settlement-activity, withdrawel for israel, as a start).
what is positive about this road-map is that all issues are included, even the refugee-question, and that it is based upon the un-resolutions.

I am willing to put aside the dark and mediocre motivations behind this plan (to restore its relations with the Arab world after the aggression against iraq and occupation of this country). It doesn't matter, what matters is that finally there's a chance for peace, and if Bush succeeds in this goal it will be a historical achievement, that will probably make people forget about the da

[Mediocrates]

So basically the roadmap is acceptable to you, insofar as it guarantees anything and everything the Palestinians have ever claimed to demand including the dissolution of the Israeli government. As long as the US government is the one doing the 'invading' of Israel.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by takeo
what is positive about this road-map is that all issues are included, even the refugee-question, and that it is based upon the un-resolutions. some more on this from Ha'aretz :

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=281192&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

(Draft of December 2002)
Phase I: Ending terror and violence, normalizing Palestinian life, and building Palestinian institutions

Phase II: Transition
June2003-December 2003

Phase III: Permanent status agreement and end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2004-2005





"U.S., Palestinians welcome Israel's acceptance of road map "
Last Update: 24/05/2003 12:25
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/296408.html

.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]Even if it is as high as 10% it's definitely worth trying.. don't you think so ?

Yes. But wouldnt it be better for both sides if we tried a new solution instead of repeating old solutions that were rejected over again by the Palestinians?

Of course it depends how hard you really try and the coalition in power in israel simply does not want peace, they find this situation soooo simple and confortable. "Terrorism must stop. Failing that we'll produce more". Point.

Israel wants peace. It just doesnt look so achievable from this road map.

And you Am Yisrael ? Do you want to try or not? Peace actually requires much more courage than dragging on with the current situation, which has become something of a habit.

Thats a silly question. Ofcourse I want peace. I just think we should look at different options then the same old "we will work it out as time goes by". There still is unanswered issues in the road map that need to be addressed now and NOT in 3 years time.


You are right, but I keep hoping for the best. I think Oslo failed because things went so far Israel and Palestine are unable to make peace on their own. I hope the quartet will help. The palestinians are ripe. Let the US kick the butt of Israel now to get some action.

France deserves more of a butt-kicking then Israel.

[humus_sapiens]

Yehudi and Takeo prove again that they joined the ranks of those who drool of destroying Israel at any price. [Deleted obscenity.]

[Mediocrates]

In the name of morality, mind you.

[takeo]

So basically the roadmap is acceptable to you, insofar as it guarantees anything and everything the Palestinians have ever claimed to demand including the dissolution of the Israeli government. As long as the US government is the one doing the 'invading' of Israel.

Thanks for clearing that up.

If i wished for the annihilation of israel as you claim i certainly wouldn't support this plan (neither does hamas or jihad).
this plan calls for a peacefull settlement of the problems between israel and the palestinians. It calls of an end to violence and terror, on both sides.
of course even the us aknowledges that if you want palestinian commitment you need to give something in return, and that's the end of the occupation and the end of the illegal settlements build on palestinian land since the 70's.
palestinians will see that if this roadplan really works, they'd better support the PA instead of the terrorists, who'll bring them exactly nothing but war and violence, and more excuses for Sharon to continue the colonisation of palestine and his sacred plan the whipe out the palestinians of "Eretz israel"(Eretz Israel, the israeli equivalent of the Dritte Reich, a large Israel cleansed of all non-Jews living there, the ultimate dream of the national party, represented in the sharon-government, can you imagine? ).

if the palestinians perceive that the us is committed to pressure israel into achieving what has been promised (unlike oslo, when netanyahu could ignore and delay the agreements) there will be an end to the intifadeh, I can garantee... they'll finally understand that there are better ways than violence to achieve their independance.


Yes. But wouldnt it be better for both sides if we tried a new solution instead of repeating old solutions that were rejected over again by the Palestinians?

The palestinians didn't reject oslo, they rejected its implementation, or the lack of implementation on the israeli side.
the roadmap hopefully will provide more international support and involvement, in order to pressure both sides in complying, I've repeated this because that's very important. People like sharon will only take the necessary steps to dismantle colonies and withdraw from the occupied territories if they have no choice at all.


Israel wants peace. It just doesnt look so achievable from this road map.

so what do you propose instead? the continuation of the current policy?



Thats a silly question. Ofcourse I want peace. I just think we should look at different options then the same old "we will work it out as time goes by". There still is unanswered issues in the road map that need to be addressed now and NOT in 3 years time.

ok, you'll right, but which unanswered questions are you refering to?


France deserves more of a butt-kicking then Israel.

I would love to kick the butt of Bush W., I'll bring my special shoes...

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
If i wished for the annihilation of israel as you claim i certainly wouldn't support this plan (neither does hamas or jihad).
this plan calls for a peacefull settlement of the problems between israel and the palestinians. It calls of an end to violence and terror, on both sides.

It and you call for the illegal colonization of all of Israel with an open ended and seemingly unlimited number of Palestinians. Hamas doesn't support this plan because it has the capability to kill. You do not.

[b]of course even the us aknowledges that if you want palestinian commitment you need to give something in return, and that's the end of the occupation and the end of the illegal settlements build on palestinian land since the 70's.

E.G. all of them. A Jew Free Paradise. I've said this a million times you've never disputed it.

palestinians will see that if this roadplan really works, they'd better support the PA instead of the terrorists, who'll bring them exactly nothing but war and violence,

I thought they did already. You've made this claim here dozens of times.

[quoteand more excuses for Sharon to continue the colonisation of palestine and his sacred plan the whipe out the palestinians of "Eretz israel"(Eretz Israel, the israeli equivalent of the Dritte Reich, a large Israel cleansed of all non-Jews living there, the ultimate dream of the national party, represented in the sharon-government, can you imagine? ).
[/QUOTE]


Clearly you can imagine it. That's why you're a race baiter. You're rather good at it but it's what you are. Your claim itself is very close to the claims and fear mongering of the nazis themselves.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by takeo
if the palestinians perceive that the us is committed to pressure israel into achieving what has been promised (unlike oslo, when netanyahu could ignore and delay the agreements) there will be an end to the intifadeh, I can garantee...

You can "Garantee" that the intifada will stop because they wont be occupied by Israel. Doesnt mean terrorism will stop... in fact I reckon all those terrorists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc) will join together and find new ways of killing Jews ie. WMD, Hezbola type army etc.

The palestinians didn't reject oslo

Thats right... :rolleyes:

so what do you propose instead? the continuation of the current policy?

This is what I think we should do..

I propose the PA to be demolished and all terror organisations in Palestinian areas to be smashed. Yasser Arafat should be not be a responsibility of Israel and he should be exiled but terrorist leaders should be brought to justice in Israel. The West Bank should be returned into Jordans hands and the Gaza Strip to Egypt where both countries at the moment have reasonably good relations with Israel. Jerusalem should be in Israels hand but should be accesible to all Arabs. Jewish religious sites will be in Jordans hands and should be accesible for Jews in Israel. Non-religious Jewish settlements should be dismantled and those living there brought into Israel to live. Israel should allow religious Arabs to live in Jerusalem in return Jordan should allow religious Jews to live near holy sites in the Yesha.

A serious implementation of religious tolerance via use of education should be implemented in Israel, Jordan and Egypt for halting Islamic extremists inciting the population and aid relations between Jews and Arabs. Israel MUST try and destroy the barrier between Ashkenazi, Sepharadi and Arabs in Israel by providing more aid to areas like "Neve Shalom". I think Israeli Arabs are too "far" from Israeli society and they need to be exposed more to western culture. If they are exposed to Western culture the Arab birth rate will decrease aswell. I think the most important way to gain peace in the ME is via religious tolerance, education, and sorting out the issue of holy sites. This roadmap has hardly proved that it will set out to do this which is why I think its a load of bollocks.

On the issue of Palestinian refugees this can be sorted out by international effort. Its been too long now that Palestinian leader have left their population "under the foot" in order to incite people and gain international aid and solidarity. Im sure some nice Jewish philanthopist will solve the Palestinian refugee problem by creating work in these areas. On the issue of Palestinian return, I think that this is an issue that can be addressed AFTER terrorism and religious hatred has subsided.

I just cant understand why so many people treat the Palestinian Authority as a serious negotiator. The thought of a country ruled by Yasser Arafat with Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc etc still at large is sickening.

ok, you'll right, but which unanswered questions are you refering to?

The issue of Jerusalem, Jewish holy sites, and the "right of return" for Palestinians.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
So basically the roadmap is acceptable to you, insofar as it guarantees anything and everything the Palestinians have ever claimed to demand including the dissolution of the Israeli government. As long as the US government is the one doing the 'invading' of Israel.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't like the "roadmap." but where does it guarantee the dissolution of the Israeli government?

As best I can tell, the Bush administration is the most pro-Israel administration we have ever had. Unlike the Clinton administration, they understand that agreements are just pieces of paper; what matters is what the parties actually do.

The "roadmap" requires the Palestinians *fight* and disable terrorist groups. If they don't do that, the "roadmap" goes nowhere.

The main problems with the "roadmap" that I see are that it ensures "right of return"--which no Israeli government can ever accept--remains a negotiable point and in some sense guarantees formation of a "Palestinian state."

By ensuring "right of return" is a negotiable point it gives the Palestinians a way to extract other concessions from Israel. So including this point, which if implemented would serve no purpose other than to allow the barbarians to position mass murderers within Israel, is grossly unfair.

And by guaranteeing a "Palestinian state" the "roadmap" puts the onus on Israel to reach a palatable agreement.

However, since the Palestinians never keep agreements anyway, no one should put much trust in the process or any agreement it produces.

The "roadmap" is irrelevant unless the Palestinians fight and dismantle terrorist groups. The chances of that happening are next to nil. However, this time the U.S. has its own interest in seeing that these groups are destroyed.

So it all comes down to how much pressure is put on the Palestinians to destroy Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, etc. Meanwhile, at some point the U.S. has to go after Hezbollah.

Israel can always rip up the "roadmap" just like the Palestinians ripped up the Oslo agreements. The key thing is that Israel must not allow itself to be fully sucked in to this charade. I don't think Sharon is that naive. Say "Yes," let the U.S. pressure the Palestinians into suppressing terrorist groups, and see what happens.

It just might precipitate a Palestinian civil war if we are lucky.

[takeo]

ibrodsky just confirmed all my suspicions about the motives of the israeli government, I think they think in a similar way.

let's summarise the latest post of Ibrodsky:

we (the hawkish zionist rightwing opposed to a negociated settlement) should use this roadmap to our own advantage, how?
Let's accept this plan, and let's hope that the palestinians will not succeed to end terror, in that case they'll be more isolated than ever, er even better, let's hope that the efforts of the PA will lead to a civil war...
But even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments. this will of course start the terrorsm all over again which means that the peaceprocess will be death anyway.

"Israel can always rip up the "roadmap" just like the Palestinians ripped up the Oslo agreements. The key thing is that Israel must not allow itself to be fully sucked in to this charade. I don't think Sharon is that naive. Say "Yes," let the U.S. pressure the Palestinians into suppressing terrorist groups, and see what happens.

It just might precipitate a Palestinian civil war if we are lucky."

this is so cynical that it sickens me. it confirms my opinion that the rightwing and the terrorists are allies in prohibiting a two-state solution. "les extrèmes se touchent"

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by takeo But even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments. this will of course start the terrorsm all over again which means that the peaceprocess will be death anyway.

You really produce some amazingly delusioned posts. Have you ever thought about a career as a propogandist?

[takeo]

You can "Garantee" that the intifada will stop because they wont be occupied by Israel. Doesnt mean terrorism will stop... in fact I reckon all those terrorists (Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc) will join together and find new ways of killing Jews ie. WMD, Hezbola type army etc.

hesbollah is not a serious threat to israel, hesbollah doesn't organise suicide-bombings killing innocents on marketplaces all over israel. it certainly will be a change for the better.

This is what I think we should do..

I propose the PA to be demolished and all terror organisations in Palestinian areas to be smashed. Yasser Arafat should be not be a responsibility of Israel and he should be exiled but terrorist leaders should be brought to justice in Israel. The West Bank should be returned into Jordans hands and the Gaza Strip to Egypt where both countries at the moment have reasonably good relations with Israel. Jerusalem should be in Israels hand but should be accesible to all Arabs. Jewish religious sites will be in Jordans hands and should be accesible for Jews in Israel. Non-religious Jewish settlements should be dismantled and those living there brought into Israel to live. Israel should allow religious Arabs to live in Jerusalem in return Jordan should allow religious Jews to live near holy sites in the Yesha.

A serious implementation of religious tolerance via use of education should be implemented in Israel, Jordan and Egypt for halting Islamic extremists inciting the population and aid relations between Jews and Arabs. Israel MUST try and destroy the barrier between Ashkenazi, Sepharadi and Arabs in Israel by providing more aid to areas like "Neve Shalom". I think Israeli Arabs are too "far" from Israeli society and they need to be exposed more to western culture. If they are exposed to Western culture the Arab birth rate will decrease aswell. I think the most important way to gain peace in the ME is via religious tolerance, education, and sorting out the issue of holy sites. This roadmap has hardly proved that it will set out to do this which is why I think its a load of bollocks.

On the issue of Palestinian refugees this can be sorted out by international effort. Its been too long now that Palestinian leader have left their population "under the foot" in order to incite people and gain international aid and solidarity. Im sure some nice Jewish philanthopist will solve the Palestinian refugee problem by creating work in these areas. On the issue of Palestinian return, I think that this is an issue that can be addressed AFTER terrorism and religious hatred has subsided.

I just cant understand why so many people treat the Palestinian Authority as a serious negotiator. The thought of a country ruled by Yasser Arafat with Hamas, Islamic Jihad etc etc still at large is sickening.

interesting plan, but not realistic. Jordanians will never accept the westbank, which would make Jordan virtually a palestinian country and threaten the position of the hashemite regime even more. Palestinians will not accept Jordanian and Egyptian rule either i think.
But you're right that religious tolerance should be enhanced in the whole region. But this can only happen if the conflict ends, psychological problems will be solved later and slower, as always (for example yugoslavia). In the meanwhile the refugee-problem, jerusalem etc. should be adressed as well.
after visiting Iran i'm pretty confident that religious intolerance will be solved sooner or later. Iranians live under a fundamentalist regime and are one of the most tolerant people one can imagine, also people in Syria and Jordan do not like fundamentalism. in egypt fundamentalism is a way of resistance to the ruling elite unfortunately, the same in Saoudi arabia i guess.
in israel religious fundamentalists and extremists get more support because of the war going on.
if there wasn't a war the national party and the likes would not get as much votes as they do nowadays, in fact if oslo succeeded the left would now still be in power.



The issue of Jerusalem, Jewish holy sites, and the "right of return" for Palestinians.

all right, those should be included.
the jewish Holy sites is easy to solve, Israeli should be able to visit those sites in all security.
Jersusalem will be divided according to the 1967 border, perhaps a few adjustments that'll include Jewish quarters in the East into Israel, while the Arab quarters will be part of the new state.
The right of return is the most difficult question, but even this can be solved. Israel needs foreign labour, certainly when its economy will expand after a peacedeal, and palestinians need work. palestinians living in israel will become moderate because they have new opportunities to live a good life(as happened to the israeli palestinians decades ago, those aren't terrorists)

[tandem]

>>>'the palestinians cannot live under this situation anymore, they will do reals efforts as they have already done (changing their system of gvt) to get the roadmap going. Of course some organizations, like Hamas will do all they can to oppose peace efforts "unless israel makes importants concessions" they said.'<<<

hamas, islamic jihad, al-aksa brigades, PFLP, and the likes, are committed to the destruction of israel. they are not interested in peace. they only care about eliminating the jewish state and establishing an islamic regime instead of it

as for abu mazen, i wouldn't be too optimistic if i were you. he is NOT a popular leader. the palestinian people do NOT trust him because he is not a well-known "figure" in the PA. the palestinian people, with help from islamic militants, will do everything in their power to undermine him. arafat is already doing everything in his power to undermine him, which is why the israelis are skeptical that this road map will lead anywhere

this roadmap wouldn't work not because of israel, but because of the palestinians. the palestinians have not carried out any real reforms. arafat is still in charge of the PA, not abu mazen

in fact, only a few days ago, arafat instructed his security officers in the west bank not to co-operate with abu mazen. i can assure you there will be more roadblocks coming from arafat

as for israel -- israel accepted peace long ago when it signed the oslo accords, and the israelis have actually delivered on that pledge. they allowed arafat to come back from exile and rule the territories. they allowed him to establish his own security forces. they allowed him to establish his own government. all israel got in return was terror and bloodshed. you know, before the oslo accords were signed, things were relatively quiet. after the accords, everything is a mess (for israel, that is). maybe that's why we should reverse everything

>>>'this israeli gvt is opposed to the roadmap. But they cannot oppose frankly because of US pressure. So they will try to 'make as if they were doing something' and in fact do nothing. Not even really freezing colonization. Anyway, there will be bombings and each bombing will give 3 weeks of delay to the likoud. The 'name of the game' for the Likoud is "drag your feet 5 months"...'<<<

yes, the israelis are opposed to it. the road map is flawed. it does not address israel's security needs

this road map is strictly focusing on the creation of a palestinian state while totally ignoring the fact that hardly any serious reforms were carried out the palestinians

the regime that is responsible for all the terror and bloodshed is still in power today and it is doing everything in its power to undermine the moderates who genuinely seek peace

furthermore, there is no such thing as "colonization". this land belongs to the jewish people. if not for the past 3000 years, the arabs officially lost this land in a war that they started nearly 36 years ago. stop bitching. it's time to move on and accept defeat

>>>'Last thing: the owner of this site (Newsguy / Michael Rand) will actively (covertly at best) support this anti-peace policy.'<<<

so what? he's entitled to have an opinion, and its got nothing with him being the owner of this site. some people here might not agree with your viewpoint, but at least you have the opportunity to say what you want and not be censored

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by takeo
[B]hesbollah is not a serious threat to israel, hesbollah doesn't organise suicide-bombings killing innocents on marketplaces all over israel. it certainly will be a change for the better.

You are right. But Hezbola has limited capacity to kill Jews because of Israels occupation of the Golan heights. If Hezbola had the capacity to launch missiles that fall within the range of Tel-Aviv and other major Israeli cities then more Jews would be dead. Imagine this situation...

-Israel stops occupying the West Bank.
-The PA fail to stop Palestinian terrorism.
-Israel cannot move in to stop this terrorism.
-Shipments of large WMDS come in from Arab countries.
-Suddenly BOOM. Tel-Aviv gets hit by 50 scuds with biological/chemical properties.

interesting plan, but not realistic. Jordanians will never accept the westbank, which would make Jordan virtually a palestinian country and threaten the position of the hashemite regime even more.

This is where the religious/cultural tolerance issue comes into impact. If the Arabs in Jordan can become tolerant of one another then Jordan will gladly accept the West Bank because it will be a big asset to the economy.

Palestinians will not accept Jordanian and Egyptian rule either i think.

I doubt they will uprise against Jordanians and Egyptians as they do with Israelis.

But you're right that religious tolerance should be enhanced in the whole region. But this can only happen if the conflict ends, psychological problems will be solved later and slower, as always (for example yugoslavia).

I completely disagree.

the jewish Holy sites is easy to solve, Israeli should be able to visit those sites in all security.

Sounds very easy... :rolleyes:

Jersusalem will be divided according to the 1967 border, perhaps a few adjustments that'll include Jewish quarters in the East into Israel, while the Arab quarters will be part of the new state.

I disagree totally. This is just asking for a religious war from Jews.

[Mediocrates]

So here is #18 summarized:

Leave all terrorists in place
Give up all of Yesha
Give up all of E Jerusalem
Give up parts of W Jeruslaem as well
Open the floodgates to Palestinan day labor
Give up all Jeswish holy sites, because 'that should be easy'
No concessions or compromise on anything from the PA

[takeo]

You are right. But Hezbola has limited capacity to kill Jews because of Israels occupation of the Golan heights. If Hezbola had the capacity to launch missiles that fall within the range of Tel-Aviv and other major Israeli cities then more Jews would be dead. Imagine this situation...


The Golan heights wouldn't make much difference. It wouldn't be easier to reach tel aviv from the Golan heights than from Southern Lebanon.



-Israel stops occupying the West Bank.
-The PA fail to stop Palestinian terrorism.
-Israel cannot move in to stop this terrorism.
-Shipments of large WMDS come in from Arab countries.
-Suddenly BOOM. Tel-Aviv gets hit by 50 scuds with biological/chemical properties.

sounds like the calamity-theory of Iraq, a country that even didn't have any WMD... and even if one country gave WMD to the palestinians, very unlikely that they would ever throw it on Israel, as they know very well that this would annihilate their palestinian state and probably their life as well. It would have to be organised by the state, hamas doesn't have the know-how or possibilities to launch such rockets, and this is really extremely unlikely.
In theory the hesbollah would have the capacity to launch such missiles, but that's never going to happen.

my solid prediction is that once the palestinians have their own country they will not jeopardise everything by attacking Israel. even lthe hesbollah, which never concluded any peacedeal with israel, have not openly attacked israeli citizens since the withdrawel.

This is where the religious/cultural tolerance issue comes into impact. If the Arabs in Jordan can become tolerant of one another then Jordan will gladly accept the West Bank because it will be a big asset to the economy.

Tolerance won't solve this problem, and democracy will even worsen the problem. with the palestinians become more than 90% of the population any democratisation would mean making jordan a palestinian ruled country... of course this isn't necessarily a problem, except that you will have created a palestine much more powerfull than the original palestine you refused to accept...

and about economical asset: the Westbank is an economical cemetary and a burden for anyone taking it over. without massive foreign investment this won't change so soon.

I doubt they will uprise against Jordanians and Egyptians as they do with Israelis.

no, at least not in the same way (except if they would rule them the same way israel does) but still i'm sure sooner or later it would create problems.



I completely disagree.

and still i'm right, that's how things go after every war in each country i visited (Guatemala, lebanon, cambodia, yugoslavia) , first a setttlement and than the long process of mental healing.

Sounds very easy...

well it is. They could turn the sites into tourist attractions and make money, i'm sure that would be an interesting prospective, and the hate against israel will slowly disappear once the oppression disappeared and israel will be looked upon as an interesting trade partner and a source of cash...




I disagree totally. This is just asking for a religious war from Jews.

why exactly?
Jerusalem is both the palestinian and israeli capital, that's just a fact.

Leave all terrorists in place
Give up all of Yesha
Give up all of E Jerusalem
Give up parts of W Jeruslaem as well
Open the floodgates to Palestinan day labor
Give up all Jeswish holy sites, because 'that should be easy'
No concessions or compromise on anything from the PA

no, not Western jerusalem, that's not required by the un-resolution, and not demanded by the palestinians.
Yes, the pa already made a huge concession by giving 80% of the original palestinian land to Israel... the remaining becomes palestine. the pa also will have the duty to garantee israeli.

besides dismantling the colonies isn't etnic cleansing, noone of those colonists lived there before 1970, not a single colony is in accordance with international law.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by takeo
[B]The Golan heights wouldn't make much difference. It wouldn't be easier to reach tel aviv from the Golan heights than from Southern Lebanon.

Yes and whats your point???? I said that Hezbola dont attack major Israeli cities because Israel is in control of the Golan which limits the range they can attack. However if Hezbola had an attack range of 10 miles (West Bank - Coast area) WITH a large gradient they could easily launch a widescale attack. The question is... would Terrorists have the bottle to do this? You obviously think that as soon as Israel gives the Palastinians a state all this will magically stop.

sounds like the calamity-theory of Iraq, a country that even didn't have any WMD... and even if one country gave WMD to the palestinians, very unlikely that they would ever throw it on Israel, as they know very well that this would annihilate their palestinian state and probably their life as well.

History repeats itself all the time so I wouldnt be surprised if some Jihadists decide to start a holy war by doing this.

It would have to be organised by the state, hamas doesn't have the know-how or possibilities to launch such rockets, and this is really extremely unlikely.
In theory the hesbollah would have the capacity to launch such missiles, but that's never going to happen.

You really have no understanding of any Palestinian terrorist organisations. At the moment the Palestinians use "homemade" ballistic missiles (Kassam) to fire at Israeli towns/ cities. These missiles have a 10km range. Now here are some weapons currently circulating around Arab lands that will eventually get into Palestinian terrorists hands. Ababil-50 (50km range; possible chemical/warhead use), Sajeel 60 (60km range; possible warhead use), FROG-7 (65km; rocket/warhead use), Laith 90 (90km; warhead use). Many of these have been manufactured in the past by Iraq and Syria and can be easily, quickly, and accurately deployed across a range of 10-20km.

my solid prediction is that once the palestinians have their own country they will not jeopardise everything by attacking Israel.

This statement shows your ignorance. ALL of the Palestinian terrorists have vowed again and again that they will not stop until Israel is destroyed. You want to ignore their words... thats your damn choice. As far as im concerned... if you are so blind as to not realise that terrorism against Israel will not stop until either the terrorists are destroyed OR Israel is destroyed... then I class you as an enemy of the state of Israel.

Tolerance won't solve this problem, and democracy will even worsen the problem. with the palestinians become more than 90% of the population any democratisation would mean making jordan a palestinian ruled country... of course this isn't necessarily a problem, except that you will have created a palestine much more powerfull than the original palestine you refused to accept...

I thought you were keen on seeing the establishment of a Palestinian state?

and about economical asset: the Westbank is an economical cemetary and a burden for anyone taking it over. without massive foreign investment this won't change so soon.

Well then I guess the alternative is for Israel to keep it if the Arabs dont want it.... :rolleyes:


and still i'm right, that's how things go after every war in each country i visited (Guatemala, lebanon, cambodia, yugoslavia) , first a setttlement and than the long process of mental healing.

A real expert huh? I stick to my words.

well it is. They could turn the sites into tourist attractions and make money, i'm sure that would be an interesting prospective, and the hate against israel will slowly disappear once the oppression disappeared and israel will be looked upon as an interesting trade partner and a source of cash...

Ok they can turn Judaisms most holy sites into disneyland and make as much profit as they wish... and we will take down the dome of the rock, sell the gold, and use it to improve the impovorished Jews who suffered economically because of Arab terrorism.


why exactly?
Jerusalem is both the palestinian and israeli capital, that's just a fact.

This is a stupid comment. Do you really think Jews will want to give up Zion? Do you think that Muslims will give up Mecca and Medina because someone else says its their third most holy site? We already have a holy war from Islam... lets leave it at that. The WORST thing that could happen is that Jerusalem gets given away. It will be world-war 3 I "garantee".

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
no, not Western jerusalem, that's not required by the un-resolution,

By you though if I read it correctly.

and not demanded by the palestinians.

not all of them just Fatah, Hamas and the PA.

Yes, the pa already made a huge concession by giving 80% of the original palestinian land to Israel[/quote

are you in fact an idiot? do you simply repeat your own prattle over and over until even you believe it?

[quote]... the remaining becomes palestine. the pa also will have the duty to garantee israeli. (safety....?)

This was a key requirement of Oslo. There is zero expectation that this would be done any better now.

besides dismantling the colonies isn't etnic cleansing, noone of those colonists lived there before 1970, not a single colony is in accordance with international law.

So if an international body or say a country says it is not against the law to hunt down Jews that's ok with you? Thanks for clearing that up. Your Jew Free Palestinian paradise is no different from all of the other final solutions.

It's ok you don't have to publically admit it, I understand.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by takeo
ibrodsky just confirmed all my suspicions about the motives of the israeli government, I think they think in a similar way.

let's summarise the latest post of Ibrodsky:

we (the hawkish zionist rightwing opposed to a negociated settlement) should use this roadmap to our own advantage, how?
Let's accept this plan, and let's hope that the palestinians will not succeed to end terror, in that case they'll be more isolated than ever, er even better, let's hope that the efforts of the PA will lead to a civil war...

But even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments. this will of course start the terrorsm all over again which means that the peaceprocess will be death anyway.

this is so cynical that it sickens me. it confirms my opinion that the rightwing and the terrorists are allies in prohibiting a two-state solution. "les extrèmes se touchent"

Please don't lie. I never said or even implied "let's hope that the palestinians will not succeed to end terror."

Nor did I ever say or imply "even in the unfortunate case that the palestinians succeed in ending terror, will still have the possibility to just search any excuse to end the peaceprocess and not sticking to our commitments." Another one of your patented lies.

I would love to see the Palestinians end their terrorism, but I am not as naive as you are regarding their intentions. However, I am always ready to give them a chance to do it--that was the main point of my post.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by yehudi
- the palestinians cannot live under this situation anymore, they will do reals efforts as they have already done (changing their system of gvt) to get the roadmap going.

A simple question: Why do you think that the Palestinians' "real efforts," haven't included giving up their national goal of destroying the State of Israel after murdering each and every Jew?

- this israeli gvt is opposed to the roadmap. But they cannot oppose frankly because of US pressure... The 'name of the game' for the Likoud is "drag your feet 5 months"...
Ummm... Now that the government has approved the road map, what do you have to say for yourself?


Last thing: the owner of this site (Newsguy / Michael Rand) will actively (covertly at best) support this anti-peace policy.
I do support realistic measures to achieve peace in the Middle East, but I do not support national suicide. That's why:

I cannot support any plan that calls for a fully-armed Palestinian terrorist state to be created.

I cannot support any plan that does not have a specific mechanism to punish the Palestinians for non-compliance.

I cannot support any plan that might result in the injection of millions more Palestinian enemies into the heart of Israel through the ruse known as the Palestinian "Right of Return."

But regardless of the particulars, make no mistake -- the Palestinians will never stop their terrorism and will not disarm their terrorist groups, so none of this road map will actually be implemented, other than some concessions to be made by Israel to get this useless process started.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
A simple question: Why do you think that the Palestinians' "real efforts," haven't included giving up their national goal of destroying the State of Israel after murdering each and every Jew?This question has beeen answered hundreds of times here. You simply refuse to recognize the answer.

My analysis is the present situation more confortable to you than taking the risk of changing.





Originally posted by NewsGuy
Ummm... Now that the government has approved the road map, what do you have to say for yourself?I say the time has come for the supposedly Pro-israeli Newsguy to support the Israeli governement.

Newsguy being himself a Likoudnik, that should not be hard for him to roll back his sleeves and get things going toward a peace - for a change -.


Except if he is in fact more extreme-right than the Likoud. Except if in fact he wants W Bush to fail. Except if the prospect of changing from a logic of colonization to a logic of peace makes him frantically backpedaling.

.

[Moskal']

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I don't like the "roadmap." but where does it guarantee the dissolution of the Israeli government?

It guarantees continued warfare by not defining the 'right of return' as impossible. Israel gives up WB and Gaza to a hostile regime and gets nothing, not even 'peace' in return. Therefore the hostilities will go on into eternity and will simply destabilize the region further (as every Israeli concession so far did).

[Mediocrates]

As a performance based tool it represents nothing because it only establishes performance based guidelines on Israel. Those are quantifiable measures: stop expansion for example. But on the PA side "making an effort to......" and you see the problem. There are in fact

No Success Criteria

You can claim anything is an 'effort'. That's why the PA accepted this so readily and that's why the Roadmap partners pressed so hard for it. Because it guarantees that the PA continues to be a terrorist state.

Sharon is throwing the dice on this one. He's betting he can keep a semi lid on terrorism through the end of his term while going out in a blaze of 'peace'. I would guess he figures he can stay in office through his term because he was reelected under a hail of Israeli deaths before. The problem will be though to maintain security through what is clearly seen as a withdrawal from parts of Yesha. I would suspect that we will see an increase in terrorist attacks as Hamas views the situation as having the Israelis on the run. The IDF's ability to root out terrorism will be blunted by the Roadmap and attacks will increase.

Terror apologists like yehudi and tak will claim the same thing they always claim. It's the Jews' fault. They aren't surrenduring fast enough to avoid their own murder. And they will simply pull the next series of demands out of their butts: unlimited repatriation, unilateral surrender of the totality of Jerusalem and so on.

The reason the Roadmap is meaningless is because the people who support it simply see it as a stepping stone to the end of Israel. Ask them, they'll tell you. They'll tell you all about international law and the illegal establishment of Israel and what not and will not be happy until it is gone. Antizionism really IS what it sounds like. It is a belief that Israel must not exist.

[yehudi]

choose your side Medio

"either with me or with the terrorists", Bush said.


just choose your side

.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Moskal'
It guarantees continued warfare by not defining the 'right of return' as impossible. Israel gives up WB and Gaza to a hostile regime and gets nothing, not even 'peace' in return. Therefore the hostilities will go on into eternity and will simply destabilize the region further (as every Israeli concession so far did).

Don't get me wrong: I don't believe major conflicts can be ended by forming committees and writing documents. I doubt the "roadmap" will work because the Palestinians are a violent and unprincipled people.

But not "defining the right of return as impossible" hardly "guarantees continued warfare."

The "roadmap" simply says the parties will negotiate a solution regarding refugees. Since there were several hundred thousands of Jews stripped of their property by Arab dictators, it's not a one-sided issue. Israel needs to do a better job exposing how the Arabs have carefuly maintained the Palestinians and their descendents in "camps" designed to breed terrorists.

Furthermore, the "roadmap" doesn't say Israel gives up the WB and Gaza for nothing in return.

PHASE I: ENDING TERROR AND VIOLENCE, NORMALIZING PALESTINIAN LIFE, AND BUILDING PALESTINIAN INSTITUTIONS. PRESENT TO MAY 2003

In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services. Palestinians undertake comprehensive political reform in preparation for statehood, including drafting a Palestinian constitution, and free, fair and open elections upon the basis of those measures. Israel takes all necessary steps to help normalize Palestinian life. Israel withdraws from Palestinian areas occupied from September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed at that time, as security performance and cooperation progress. Israel also freezes all settlement activity, consistent with the Mitchell report.

At the outset of Phase I:

Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel's right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.

Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.

SECURITY

Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.

Rebuilt and refocused Palestinian Authority security apparatus begins sustained, targeted, and effective operations aimed at confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure. This includes commencing confiscation of illegal weapons and consolidation of security authority, free of association with terror and corruption.

GOI takes no actions undermining trust, including deportations, attacks on civilians; confiscation and/or demolition of Palestinian homes and property, as a punitive measure or to facilitate Israeli construction; destruction of Palestinian institutions and infrastructure; and other measures specified in the Tenet work plan.

Relying on existing mechanisms and on-the-ground resources, Quartet representatives begin informal monitoring and consult with the parties on establishment of a formal monitoring mechanism and its implementation.

Implementation, as previously agreed, of U.S. rebuilding, training and resumed security cooperation plan in collaboration with outside oversight board (U.S.-Egypt-Jordan). Quartet support for efforts to achieve a lasting, comprehensive cease-fire.

All Palestinian security organizations are consolidated into three services reporting to an empowered Interior Minister.

Restructured/retrained Palestinian security forces and IDF counterparts progressively resume security cooperation and other undertakings in implementation of the Tenet work plan, including regular senior-level meetings, with the participation of U.S. security officials.

Arab states cut off public and private funding and all other forms of support for groups supporting and engaging in violence and terror.

All donors providing budgetary support for the Palestinians channel these funds through the Palestinian Ministry of Finance's Single Treasury Account.

As comprehensive security performance moves forward, IDF withdraws progressively from areas occupied since September 28, 2000 and the two sides restore the status quo that existed prior to September 28, 2000. Palestinian security forces redeploy to areas vacated by IDF.

PALESTINIAN INSTITUTION-BUILDING

Immediate action on credible process to produce draft constitution for Palestinian statehood. As rapidly as possible, constitutional committee circulates draft Palestinian constitution, based on strong parliamentary democracy and cabinet with empowered prime minister, for public comment/debate. Constitutional committee proposes draft document for submission after elections for approval by appropriate Palestinian institutions.

Appointment of interim prime minister or cabinet with empoweredexecutive authority/decision-making body.

GOI fully facilitates travel of Palestinian officials for PLC and Cabinet sessions, internationally supervised security retraining, electoral and other reform activity, and other supportive measures related to the reform efforts.

Continued appointment of Palestinian ministers empowered to undertake fundamental reform. Completion of further steps to achieve genuine separation of powers, including any necessary Palestinian legal reforms for this purpose.

Establishment of independent Palestinian election commission. PLC reviews and revises election law.

Palestinian performance on judicial, administrative, and economic benchmarks, as established by the International Task Force on Palestinian Reform.

As early as possible, and based upon the above measures and in the context of open debate and transparent candidate selection/electoral campaign based on a free, multiparty process, Palestinians hold free, open, and fair elections.

GOI facilitates Task Force election assistance, registration of voters, movement of candidates and voting officials. Support for NGOs involved in the election process.

GOI reopens Palestinian Chamber of Commerce and other closed Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem based on a commitment that these institutions operate strictly in accordance with prior agreements between the parties.

HUMANITARIAN RESPONSE

Israel takes measures to improve the humanitarian situation. Israel and Palestinians implement in full all recommendations of the Bertini report to improve humanitarian conditions, lifting curfews and easing restrictions on movement of persons and goods, and allowing full, safe, and unfettered access of international and humanitarian personnel.

AHLC reviews the humanitarian situation and prospects for economic development in the West Bank and Gaza and launches a major donor assistance effort, including to the reform effort.

GOI and PA continue revenue clearance process and transfer of funds, including arrears, in accordance with agreed, transparent monitoring mechanism.

CIVIL SOCIETY

Continued donor support, including increased funding through PVOs/NGOs, for people to people programs, private sector development and civil society initiatives.

SETTLEMENTS

GOI immediately dismantles settlement outposts erected since March 2001.

Consistent with the Mitchell Report, GOI freezes all settlement activity (including natural growth of settlements).

[ibrodsky]

Note that in Phase 1 the Palestinians are required to "undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere." It also says that Arab states must cut off all funding for terrorist activities.

Personally, I don't see the "roadmap" getting past this because the Arabs will never cease terrorism.

The real test is what the US says and does. If Abu Mazen simply gets Hamas to agree to a temporary halt to mass murder, I expect the US to say that's not good enough. At a minimum, the leaders of Hamas must be captured and brought to justice.

No Israeli government is going to fulfill its part of the "roadmap" if terrorism continues. And the US is not going to pressure Israel to accept terrorism.

PHASE II: TRANSITION JUNE 2003-DECEMBER 2003

In the second phase, efforts are focused on the option of creating an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and attributes of sovereignty, based on the new constitution, as away station to a permanent status settlement. As has been noted, this goal can be achieved when the Palestinian people have a leadership acting decisively against terror, willing and able to build a practicing democracy based on tolerance and liberty. With such a leadership, reformed civil institutions and security structures, the Palestinians will have the active support of the Quartet and the broader international community in establishing an independent, viable state.

Progress into Phase II will be based upon the consensus judgment of the Quartet of whether conditions are appropriate to proceed, taking into account performance of both parties. Furthering and sustaining efforts to normalize Palestinian lives and build Palestinian institutions, Phase II starts after Palestinian elections and ends with possible creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders in 2003. Its primary goals are continued comprehensive security performance and effective security cooperation, continued normalization of Palestinian life and institution-building, further building on and sustaining of the goals outlined in Phase I, ratification of a democratic Palestinian constitution, formal establishment of office of prime minister, consolidation of political reform, and the creation of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE: Convened by the Quartet, in consultation with the parties, immediately after the successful conclusion of Palestinian elections, to support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process, leading to establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders.

Such a meeting would be inclusive, based on the goal of a comprehensive Middle East peace (including between Israel and Syria, and Israel and Lebanon), and based on the principles described in the preamble to this document.

Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices,etc.).

Revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regionalwater resources, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues.

New constitution for democratic, independent Palestinian state is finalized and approved by appropriate Palestinian institutions. Further elections, if required, should follow approval of the new constitution.

Empowered reform cabinet with office of prime minister formally established, consistent with draft constitution.

Continued comprehensive security performance, including effective security cooperation on the bases laid out in Phase I.

Creation of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders through a process of Israeli-Palestinian engagement, launched by the international conference. As part of this process,implementation of prior agreements, to enhance maximum territorial contiguity, including further action on settlements in conjunction with establishment of a Palestinian state with provisional borders.

Enhanced international role in monitoring transition, with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet.

Quartet members promote international recognition of Palestinian state, including possible UN membership.

Phase 2 is impossible because it requires the Palestinians build a functioning democracy. Nevertheless, it requires *first* decisive action against terrorists.

[ibrodsky]

I also don't understand the claim that the "roadmap" calls for Israel to make concessions in return for nothing.

At every step it requires the Palestinians to fight terrorist groups and achieve demonstrable results.

The only things that the "roadmap" guarantees if it succeeds is that Israel will halt new settlements, the Palestinians will stop terrorism, the Palestinians will create a democratic government, a Palestinian state will be established, the entire Arab world will recognize Israel and end the conflict, and all of the other issues will be resolved through negotiations.

PHASE III: PERMANENT STATUS AGREEMENT AND END OF THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT 2004 - 2005

Progress into Phase III, based on consensus judgment of Quartet, and taking into account actions of both parties and Quartet monitoring. Phase III objectives are consolidation of reform and stabilization of Palestinian institutions, sustained, effective Palestinian security performance, and Israeli-Palestinian negotiations aimed at a permanent status agreement in 2005.

SECOND INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE: Convened by Quartet, in consultation with the parties, at beginning of 2004 to endorse agreement reached on an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders and formally to launch a process with the active, sustained, and operational support of the Quartet, leading to a final, permanent status resolution in 2005, including on borders, Jerusalem, refugees, settlements; and, to support progress toward a comprehensive Middle East settlement between Israel and Lebanon and Israel and Syria, to be achieved as soon as possible. Continued comprehensive, effective progress on the reform agenda laid out by the Task Force in preparation for final status agreement.

Continued sustained and effective security performance, and sustained, effective security cooperation on the bases laid out inPhase I.

International efforts to facilitate reform and stabilize Palestinian institutions and the Palestinian economy, in preparation for final status agreement.

Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement that ends the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2005, through a settlement negotiated between the parties based on UNSCR242, 338, and 1397, that ends the occupation that began in 1967, and includes an agreed, just, fair, and realistic solution to the refugee issue, and a negotiated resolution on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide, and fulfills the vision of two states, Israel and sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine, living side-by-side in peace and security.

Arab state acceptance of full normal relations with Israel and security for all the states of the region in the context of a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace.

In conclusion, while I see the "roadmap" has having almost no chance of succeeding, I think Israel and the US have an opportunity here to force the Palestinians and other Arabs to fight and end terrorism.

They also have an opportunity to expose the fact that the Arabs are opposed to democracy and peace on religious grounds. (Whether that is based on Islam or Islamism is another matter.)

If one assumes that the "roadmap" process will be run by the EU and UN, then of course it will be disasterous for Israel. But all available evidence suggests it will be run by the US--and we are at war with Arab/Islamist terrorist groups.

And I don't think Ariel Sharon is set on sacrificing Israel for any reason. More likely, he has firm assurances from the US that the Palestinians wil be forced to fight and destroy Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.

Remember, President Bush said at the outset we would use a combination of overt and covert means to fight terrorism. He explicitly said we would take action to spark fighting between the terrorist groups and their sponsors. (One should not underestimate the ability of Arab dictators and terrorists to take the bait.) So far, we have crushed two terrorist sponsoring regimes. Clearly, there is support for some kind of action to topple Iran's Islamo-fascist government. And I don't believe for one second that President Bush is going to just let Hezbollah off the hook. The administration wants to proceed cautiously here because Hezbollah has 10,000 rockets that can reach Israel.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
As a performance based tool it represents nothing because it only establishes performance based guidelines on Israel. Those are quantifiable measures: stop expansion for example. But on the PA side "making an effort to......" and you see the problem. There are in fact

No Success Criteria

I don't see how that automatically works in the Palestinians' favor. I believe Israel has already stopped expanding settlements, so no new action is required; the burden is on the Palestinians to prove new settlements are being built.

While no one can stop every single act of violence, it's up to the U.S. and Israel to determine whether the Palestinians are really fighting terrorist groups or not. Today, Hamas holds public rallies. If they are still doing that a year from now, then clearly the Palestinians are doing nothing to fight them.

You can claim anything is an 'effort'. That's why the PA accepted this so readily and that's why the Roadmap partners pressed so hard for it. Because it guarantees that the PA continues to be a terrorist state.

You can also declare any effort to be phony unless it produces meaningful results.

If you believe the current US administration supports a "roadmap" that "guarantees... the PA continues to be a terrorist state" then I think you have lost touch with reality.

Sharon is throwing the dice on this one. He's betting he can keep a semi lid on terrorism through the end of his term while going out in a blaze of 'peace'. I would guess he figures he can stay in office through his term because he was reelected under a hail of Israeli deaths before. The problem will be though to maintain security through what is clearly seen as a withdrawal from parts of Yesha. I would suspect that we will see an increase in terrorist attacks as Hamas views the situation as having the Israelis on the run. The IDF's ability to root out terrorism will be blunted by the Roadmap and attacks will increase.

Well, I do fear that some of Ariel Sharon's actions are motivated by a desire to disprove the Arab Big Lie as it applies specifically to him.

But he was elected by a clear majority and enjoys the support of the U.S. I think he knows that no matter what he does he will never win int'l vindication.

I don't see him sacrificing Israel in an attempt to clear his name. More important, I don't see anyone else in Israel sacrificing Israel to clear Sharon's name. Most Jews understand that Europe and the Arab world have no moral authority over the Jewish people.

Terror apologists like yehudi and tak will claim the same thing they always claim. It's the Jews' fault. They aren't surrenduring fast enough to avoid their own murder. And they will simply pull the next series of demands out of their butts: unlimited repatriation, unilateral surrender of the totality of Jerusalem and so on.

Who put yehudi and takeo in charge?

Sorry, I don't see the US going along with this. I don't see the current administration suddenly reversing course and advocating appeasement towards terrorists.

I don't see anything in the "roadmap" that requires "surrender of the totality of Jerusalem." I do see language designed to guarantee the right of all religious groups to visit their holy sites. Since the Arabs are the only obstacle to this, it works against them. Israel has always guaranteed free access to all religions.

The reason the Roadmap is meaningless is because the people who support it simply see it as a stepping stone to the end of Israel. Ask them, they'll tell you. They'll tell you all about international law and the illegal establishment of Israel and what not and will not be happy until it is gone. Antizionism really IS what it sounds like. It is a belief that Israel must not exist.

This is utter nonsense. The Bush administration is not trying to destroy Israel. Most of Bush's supporters are very pro-Israel.

I've never heard anyone in the Bush administration say Israel is illegal. I have, however, heard them say that the Palestinians are run by a gang of thugs and terrorists.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I don't see how that automatically works in the Palestinians' favor. I believe Israel has already stopped expanding settlements, so no new action is required; the burden is on the Palestinians to prove new settlements are being built.

Sure it does. Israel may or may not 'stop' settlements. It's irrelvant to the Roadmap. What's critical is the perception of rolling them back. This is the crux of the 'natural expansion argument'. To the Israels its the difference between building new towns and expanding the towns already there. To the PA no such distinction exists.


While no one can stop every single act of violence, it's up to the U.S. and Israel to determine whether the Palestinians are really fighting terrorist groups or not. Today, Hamas holds public rallies. If they are still doing that a year from now, then clearly the Palestinians are doing nothing to fight them.

Because the US is afraid to admit the truth, that Hamas is already in charge. The US and its enforcement effort will be talking to the wrong people. Abbas is marginalized, Arafat is marginalized. The only power core left is Hamas a/o Hamas -lite the other 12 security forces.

You can also declare any effort to be phony unless it produces meaningful results.

Angina is not pain, it's the fear of pain. A little like this, eh?

If you believe the current US administration supports a "roadmap" that "guarantees... the PA continues to be a terrorist state" then I think you have lost touch with reality.

Then so be it. The US administration seems to be indifferent to the degree of terrorism the Israelis experience. Let's not forget that the Roadmap is a tarted up version of the same old "Saudi Plan" that originates in the Saudis own fears of losing their heads to indigenous terrorism and civil war.

I don't see him sacrificing Israel in an attempt to clear his name. More important, I don't see anyone else in Israel sacrificing Israel to clear Sharon's name. Most Jews understand that Europe and the Arab world have no moral authority over the Jewish people.

Quite right but most people seem to believe that the chance of peace is better than the certainty of war in the short run. Most people are willing to trade a few 'settlers'.

Sorry, I don't see the US going along with this. I don't see the current administration suddenly reversing course and advocating appeasement towards terrorists.

They don't see it that way, they see it as a 'process' toward peace.

I don't see anything in the "roadmap" that requires "surrender of the totality of Jerusalem." I do see language designed to guarantee the right of all religious groups to visit their holy sites.

Same language as was in Oslo. Same results. The Tomb of Joseph was one such site and 24 people have been murdered there.

[cerulean]

What makes the Roadmap different than Oslo Redux?
I wish I could see some other result from this than more disaster.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Sure it does. Israel may or may not 'stop' settlements. It's irrelvant to the Roadmap. What's critical is the perception of rolling them back. This is the crux of the 'natural expansion argument'. To the Israels its the difference between building new towns and expanding the towns already there. To the PA no such distinction exists.

The PA is irrelevant. You say so yourself below.

The purpose of the "roadmap" is to force the Palestinians to choose new leaders, create new institutions, and build a civil society in order to obtain a state in the West Bank and Gaza.

The worst thing Jews can do right now is appear to be opposed to any kind of settlement. Instead, we should use every opportunity to say that no nation can accept mass murder attacks on its citizens, and that the only obstacle to peace in the ME is Palestinians' two-faced game of saying they oppose terrorism while doing everything they can to support it.

I have no illusions about the "roadmap" working. But it is a huge mistake to dismiss a plan that requires the Palestinians fight and dismantle terrorist groups. Instead, we should make it clear that there can be no other progress until the new Palestinian leaders take decisive action against the terrorists.

Make them do it. If they don't, make it clear we gave them a chance, but they weren't serious. We offered them peace, they chose terrorism. They violated the first and most crucial item on the "roadmap." They prefer more war, and now they are going to get it.

Because the US is afraid to admit the truth, that Hamas is already in charge. The US and its enforcement effort will be talking to the wrong people. Abbas is marginalized, Arafat is marginalized. The only power core left is Hamas a/o Hamas -lite the other 12 security forces.

The U.S. is coming off two successful military engagements in the Muslim world. And the war is not over by a longshot. The US is hardly afraid of the truth or anything else for that matter.

But it should be dawning on more and more Arabs about now that the clock is running out on Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad. The trick is to get Arabs involved in isolating them and possibly even taking them down. Last I heard, the Saudi Royal Family and Baby Assad were not ready to give up their palaces. They can be pressured.

Angina is not pain, it's the fear of pain. A little like this, eh?

You make the mistake of assuming that the wording of a plan is what matters. The Arabs know they can put any spin on it they want. They have even proved they can "agree" to things they have no intention of doing.

The key this time is to ensure that our spin--the liquidation of Hamas et al--is the top priority. And we must ensure the plan goes not one step further until that happens.

Then so be it. The US administration seems to be indifferent to the degree of terrorism the Israelis experience. Let's not forget that the Roadmap is a tarted up version of the same old "Saudi Plan" that originates in the Saudis own fears of losing their heads to indigenous terrorism and civil war.

No, I think the administration understands that Israel can handle Hamas and C4 explosives. But Iranian Mullahs with nukes is a different matter, because there is a strong chance they will hand them off to Al Qaeda or look-alike terror groups.

So there has to be a strategy that gives the Arabs an opportunity to get the WB and Gaza and give up destroying Israel. How it's interpreted, monitored, and enforced is up to the U.S. And the U.S. has already said it won't work unless *both* parties fulfill their obligations--starting with the Palestinians ending the violence and taking decisive action against terrorist groups.

To wit, I would rather let the Palestinians be the cause of the "roadmap" failing than Israel.

Quite right but most people seem to believe that the chance of peace is better than the certainty of war in the short run. Most people are willing to trade a few 'settlers'.

The real problem is that Israel has done such a poor job representing herself on the global stage. Israel should offer a "Jew-free" West Bank with free and safe access to religious sites in exchange for an Arab-free Israel. If the Arabs refuse, Israel should accuse them of racism.

They don't see it that way, they see it as a 'process' toward peace.

I guess you haven't heard: Madeliene All-dumb and Warren Christopher are out. Their replacements are not nearly as naive. Check with Saddam and the Taliban.

The current administration sees the "roadmap" as a process in which Arabs fight Arab terrorists in order to get their own little fiefdom. I'm sure there are many Palestinians besides Arafat who would love to control the financial aid spigot; some would even crush Hamas (with help from the US) in order to get their hands on the loot.

Same language as was in Oslo. Same results. The Tomb of Joseph was one such site and 24 people have been murdered there.

Different cast of characters. Different attitude about the relationship between words and deeds. This is post 9/11/01. The demand to fight terrorists is not just rhetoric anymore.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by cerulean
What makes the Roadmap different than Oslo Redux?


Memory. Realism. Military upper hand. Proven assassination techniques. Closures. US mad at Palestinians for always supporting Saddam, celebrating the WTC massacre, killing Americans visiting Israel. No more Iraq to help the Palestinians. Baby Assad sweating bullets. Iran put on notice.

Bush administration diplomacy philosophy: don't put all of your cards on the table. Work behind the scenes. Help your enemies fight each other.

Hundreds of Palestinians protested Hamas launching rockets from their neighborhood. Arafat not invited to US-Israel-Palestinian meeting. Houses demolished, terrorists killed/captured after every attack.

[Mediocrates]

I don't believe three of your main topics:

1 - An Israel acting toward resolution with less than 150% effort will be seen as an honest partner.

2 - An Israel that acts with any of its own self interest at heart will be supported or believed.

3 - There is any realistic likelihood that whatever is in charge in Palestine can be successfully portrayed as being the problem or being responsible for the lack of progress.

I do not know what concessions Israel and the US extracted from one another at the last minute in order for Sharon to sign on. I do know that they have to be less complex and expansive to the US than pursuing its own agenda to begin with. For all the critics of Israel as being a whipping post vassal state of American interests I believe you just saw that quietly multiplied last week. The US just became to Israel what the UN is to the US.

I am deeply dissappointed in the US administration. I am convinced that their war on terrorism will not extend over Israel or the West Bank. 40+ dead American citizens in Israel and the West Bank in the last 30 something months and not a peep from the administration. Acting on that simply doesn't garner more votes in addition to those from the Roadmap. And make no mistake I think the Roadmap is grounded in electoral politics.

What kind of interests me though is the dead silence from the other partners. What does that say about their involvement, their earnestness. Sounds to me like they want some of the credit but won't do thing one. Of course we'll hear the endless stuck pig squealing from them about how big bad America won't let them play.....None the less they appear, as they always do to bring nothing to the table.

You have to wonder if the Roadmap is simply some scratchy tracings of a cowpath that meanders over the countryside randomly like it has for a hundred years.

[andak01]

I see this as a positive message and one that proves what Israelis must have known all along. United States interests are independant of Israeli interests. Too many Arabs I speak to still believe that the tail is wagging the dog here. In fact, many recent events may have lulled Israelis into the belief that America is their unflagging ally. Others who have made the mistake of hitching their wagon to our star have discovery the fallacy of that too late. If you enter a two way partnership with us, there are two places to end up, second place and last place. Take your pick.

[Mediocrates]

No the sad part is that the Palestinian populace has been deluded into believing that their masters in the PA etc. have anything like their interests in mind. We will get to the end of 2005 with little or no progress and the Palestinians themselves will be left with nothing except that they tried. Their rulers simply want to rule and that is unrelated to the Roadmap.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I don't believe three of your main topics:

1 - An Israel acting toward resolution with less than 150% effort will be seen as an honest partner.

The only country that can pressure Israel to give more than it receives is the U.S. If the terrorist groups are dismantled Israel gains the main thing it has lacked for 50+ years: security.

2 - An Israel that acts with any of its own self interest at heart will be supported or believed.

You are worried about what people who will never believe or support Israel think. I'm willing to bribe the more educated and Westernized Palestinians to fight and kill Islamist mass murderers. If they don't, Israel is no worse off than now.

3 - There is any realistic likelihood that whatever is in charge in Palestine can be successfully portrayed as being the problem or being responsible for the lack of progress.

Again, the goal is security for Israel's citizens--not a PR coup in Brussels.

I am deeply dissappointed in the US administration.

Would you prefer an administration that forced Israel to recognize the PLO and negotiate with the Father of Modern Terrorism?

Would you prefer an administration that interferes in Israel's internal politics?

Of course the US looks out for its own interests first. And Israel can never expect another country to put Israel's interests first. But there has been some real commonality of interests here. Both countries have been attacked by Islamist scum.

I am convinced that their war on terrorism will not extend over Israel or the West Bank. 40+ dead American citizens in Israel and the West Bank in the last 30 something months and not a peep from the administration. Acting on that simply doesn't garner more votes in addition to those from the Roadmap. And make no mistake I think the Roadmap is grounded in electoral politics.

From my perspective, the US is letting Israel defend itself while the US tries to diffuse Arab propaganda. I don't know that the US would ever send troops to defend Israel. By the same token, I don't think the US will try to force Israel to accept terms that threaten its security.

The White House has *not* said the roadmap will be driven to completion whether or not both parties cooperate. Listen to the administration and not the biased media: they have consistently said the "roadmap" will only work if both sides want it to work.

I agree the Palestinians simply want to use the "roadmap" as another device to extract concessions from Israel. But there is an opportunity here to force them to fight terrorism.

If it doesn't work, Israel can walk away just as Arafat did 2 years ago. I don't care what garbage the Arabs spew--it won't be materially different from the garbage they have spewed for 50+ years.

What kind of interests me though is the dead silence from the other partners. What does that say about their involvement, their earnestness. Sounds to me like they want some of the credit but won't do thing one. Of course we'll hear the endless stuck pig squealing from them about how big bad America won't let them play.....None the less they appear, as they always do to bring nothing to the table.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[ibrodsky]

P.S.: It is possible that a future U.S. administration will force Israel to make dangerous concessions. That is also something to consider.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by andak01
I see this as a positive message and one that proves what Israelis must have known all along. United States interests are independant of Israeli interests. Too many Arabs I speak to still believe that the tail is wagging the dog here. In fact, many recent events may have lulled Israelis into the belief that America is their unflagging ally. Others who have made the mistake of hitching their wagon to our star have discovery the fallacy of that too late. If you enter a two way partnership with us, there are two places to end up, second place and last place. Take your pick.

Andy, you are absolutely right: No one does anything, unless there's some payoff. So what could the possible payoff be to the United States to try and bring peace between Israel and the Palestinians? Hmmmm. Perhaps to end terrorist attacks against our country (the country where you live, BTW) and against our interests abroad?

Even though all I've heard from Muslims is they wanted the Road Map implimented. Now, your post/s don't sound like you're encouraging Israelis to take up this chance for peace. On the contrary, it sounds as though you're trying to bring in doubt. I wonder what your payoff for doing that could be? Where's that peaceful Islam you've been touting?

[andak01]

I'd love to see a Palestinian state, but I don't see what's in it for the US except as a diplomatic concession to the Arabs for cooperation in the war against terrorism. And that doesn't seem to be in keeping with our policy of being unilateral behind Israel. Honestly, I can't see what Israel would ever accept such a Roadmap unless it is shoved down their throats.

From a practical standpoint, I think the continued existence of Israel will be the least of all evils. I am peaceful enough to opt for the solution which involves the least about of killing.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by andak01
From a practical standpoint, I think the continued existence of Israel will be the least of all evils. I am peaceful enough to opt for the solution which involves the least about of killing.

I do too, Andak.
So what do you propose we do if the Arabs continue the incitement from the infant age, mass murder called "martyrdom operations", and the Nazi Arab League policy of Three No's of Khartoum?

Keep offering them a hand of peace? Keep turning another cheek and sacrificing our children? Where do you draw the line in the sand? What are your options for the solution? Sorry, too many questions.

[andak01]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
I do too, Andak.
So what do you propose we do if the Arabs continue the incitement from the infant age, mass murder called "martyrdom operations", and the Nazi Arab League policy of Three No's of Khartoum?

Keep offering them a hand of peace? Keep turning another cheek and sacrificing our children? Where do you draw the line in the sand? What are your options for the solution? Sorry, too many questions.

Those kind of questions I love! If the Israelis and Palestinians started asking each other for solutions instead of constantly delivering ultimatums, they'd probably achieve peace soon. There is an inherent distrust on both sides. "He's only telling me this so that he can achieve his secret agenda. If it seems good, it must be bad." And not without reason, which makes it worse.

My solution to everything is threefold, empowerment, education and economics.

Empowerment (I'm not talking military or political, but in terms of constructive problem solving) means that people have to believe (even if it isn't true) that they are solving their own problems. The United States and Israel have not (in recent days) offered their enemies any solutions that involved empowering them to find solutions. We have presumed failure from the start.

Yet, even given that, we have had some success with governments cooperating and turning over prisoners or information that has prevented attacks.

What if we had, from the start, gone to the Arab nations and said, there is this Osamu Bin Laden that we are after. He claims that Palestine is the problem. Reduce the Hamas to nothing and hand him over to us and we will help you with your education deficiency and with your agriculture and you'll get a state of Palestine. Make it clear to your people that resisting this plan will delay the creation of a state of Palestine and cooperation will speed up the process. What's more, any government that cooperates with this plan gets to stay in power, and any that doesn't will be invaded by our troops.

Now is that the same as paying off Bin Laden? Bin Laden is in prison, Al Qaida and Hamas are destroyed by Arab means. In other words, make it clear that the only way of achieving the ends is through a peaceful means. Now Bin Laden et al would have nothing to fight for, because it would be clear that such fighting would be going against the interests of the very people he is trying to recruit. As it stands today, many Arabs are so afraid of being invaded, that they don't think it makes any difference which side they fight for. North Korea has made it clear to them that might does make right, that owning nuclear weapons is the only way to prevent regiem change. I'm not saying that it is, but the Arabs may believe that at this point.

Education is the key to stopping the creation of new martyrs. Building schools, and more importantly allowing people to go to them for free.

How's this for a proposal? Take the children who are found throwing rocks and force them to go to schule and learn the Torah! That's a punishment they would really fear! :D

[Mediocrates]

Is there a 12 step program for terrorism?

[Mediocrates]

Anyways its not important. Since rights and laws and legitimacy are determined in the modern world strictly according to headcount all that needs happen is creeping incrementalism. This is what the PA aparachiks understand and why they fear the 'settlers' more than they fear the army. If there were a million Jews living in Judea the world would be forced to apply its rules to the Jews as well and grant them grudging legitimacy based solely on census count. This is why right of the return is the real agenda item. It's nothing more than 'might makes right' with an Oprah compliant child friendly PC face on it. And it is why the PA will ultimately win.

[ibrodsky]

It's interesting to read the positions of various organizations and experts on the "roadmap."

AIPAC supports it with reservations. However, the statement they issued shows they cling to the illusion that a "peace process" is necessary.

The Zionist Organization of America is fiercely opposed and calls for emergency action to stop the roadmap.

Daniel Pipes presents two statements on his website. The first is what he said about Palestinian statehood in 1990. He argued strongly that there isn't room for two states between the Jordan River and the sea, and that a Palestinian state would be a terrorist state. But his updated view is that some kind of settlement is possible only after an extended period during which the Palestinians demonstrate acceptance of Israel.

Charles Krauthamer wrote a column called "The Roadblock on the Road Map" in which he points out that Arafat is still in charge. His position seems to be that the roadmap should be frozen until a genuine independent and reformed Palestinian gov't emerges.

[andak01]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Is there a 12 step program for terrorism?

The cheapest medicines are usually preventative. Once a child has been turned into a killer, there is little turning back.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by andak01
I'd love to see a Palestinian state, but I don't see what's in it for the US except as a diplomatic concession to the Arabs for cooperation in the war against terrorism. And that doesn't seem to be in keeping with our policy of being unilateral behind Israel. Honestly, I can't see what Israel would ever accept such a Roadmap unless it is shoved down their throats.

From a practical standpoint, I think the continued existence of Israel will be the least of all evils. I am peaceful enough to opt for the solution which involves the least about of killing.

I think the discussion as to whether or not Israel will continue to exist is moot. But I too share your doubt as to Israel's conservative wing wanting this road map. However, this road map is a Sword of Damacles for the Palestinians, for if the Palestinians continue their track record of violence, it is not going to play well for them on the international stage.

[humus_sapiens]

FLAME - FACTS AND LOGIC ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST

The Two-State Solution
Will the "Road Map lead to peace in the Middle East?

Two peoples, the Palestinians and the Israeli Jews living side by side in peace. The "two-state solution" has been proposed for decades to terminate the increasingly violent Arab-Israeli conflict. It is now being resurrected as the "Road Map," sponsored by the "quartet," consisting of the United States, Russia, the European Union, and the United Nations.

What are the facts?

A false premise: The basic premise, that the "Palestinians" need and deserve a state, is false. Because there are no such people as the "Palestinians," and before the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, nobody had ever heard of them. Until Jewish immigration to Palestine began, the country was sparsely settled, inhabited mostly by roving Bedouins. The industry and prosperity, the agricultural development, and modern infrastructure brought by the Jews proved an irresistible magnet for the Arabs from the surrounding regions.

The "two-state solution" has been tried before. Its most recent incarnation was the Oslo Accord, a detailed and elaborate plan, at the end of which a "Palestinian" state was envisioned. Israel, foolishly having acquiesced to the return of Yasser Arafat and his fellow thugs into the country, meticulously adhered to every point of that agreement, and in good faith turned big chunks of its country over to the control of the so-called "Palestinian Authority."

All the "Palestinians" had to do in return for this generosity, unprecedented in world history, was to renounce violence. But the "Palestinians," with the enthusiastic support of virtually all of the Arab states and of the Iranians, methodically violated even that modest requirement. They are armed to the teeth and continue to engage in bloody and violent struggle. They have caused untold havoc — close to 1,000 Israeli Jews killed and many more seriously wounded, just in the last two years.

The members of the "quartet" have taken it upon themselves to decide the destiny of Israel, without any consultation with Israel itself. Of its four members, only the United States can be considered friendly toward Israel. But even our country, sad to say, seems to consider sacrificing Israel in the vain hope of currying favor with the Arabs and the Moslems of the world to assuage their rage and anger in the wake of our war with Iraq.

Implacable hostility: The United Nations are inexorably hostile to Israel, beginning with the infamous resolution that Zionism equals racism. The European Union — unable to shed its centuries-old poison of anti-Semitism and in order to appease an ever-increasing Moslem minority, has cloaked its antagonism toward the Jews into the more acceptable anti-Israelism. Russia, despite its bloody problems with its own Moslems, having killed thousands in Chechnya, but with an eye on the billions of dollars of potential profit from the Arab nations, continues to be steadfast in its opposition to Israel.

At first blush, the "two-state solution" would seem to be a reasonable one: Two states for two peoples. But there are no two peoples; there is only tiny Israel — smaller than Lake Michigan – opposed by the vast array of implacably hostile Arabs — twenty-two states with over 250 million people — who want to carve a "Palestinian" state out of Israel’s heartland. And the Arabs make no secret that that has only one single-minded purpose: to serve as a springboard for the final assault against Israel and its destruction — once and for all.

The world is fixated on creating a state for the "Palestinians," a non-existing people. Oddly, the world and the U.N. do not show any interest for real peoples, such as the Kurds, who have been languishing for centuries under the yoke of four different nations; for the Basques, whose struggle for freedom from France and Spain finds little sympathy; or for the Tibetans, who have suffered for decades under the brutality of the Chinese. And the United Nations has never acted on behalf of the suppressed Berbers in North Africa or concerned itself with the terrible fate of the Sudanese Christians. No, it is only the "Palestinians" who engage the attention of the world body.

The failure of the Oslo Accord and the bloody and seemingly never-ending intifada have proved that the entire Arab world and the Iranians have only one foreign policy goal, and that is the destruction of Israel. U.S. generals know and Israeli generals know that Israel, without Judea/Samaria (the "West Bank"), is indefensible. The Arabs don’t care about a twenty-third Arab state. They want the destruction of Israel. With the Arabs dominating the Judean heights and with that the ability to cut Israel in two at its narrow 9-mile-wide waist in one armored thrust, the two state so-called "solution" would be the death knell for Israel. It is deplorable that the United States — Israel’s best friend by far — would attempt to impose such a "solution" on its staunchest ally and friend and on the only country in that entire area of the world that shares America’s democratic and humane ideals and on which our country can count in any contingency. No nation can be expected to enter into a suicide pact. Therefore, regardless of what the "quartet" or anybody else might wish to impose on Israel, there will be no "Palestinian" state, no "two-state solution."

[yehudi]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
there are no such people as the "Palestinians"When you say this to them (should we call this "negationism"?), don't be surprised the palestinians answer: "OK, there is no such country as Israel either then". Nearly all the arguments you use could be turned against Israel.

Saying "they do not exist" amounts to the intention of destroying them, and legitimize the recourse to terrorism because then, they are fighting for their very existence as a people


So please recognize the existence of millions palestinians, most of them made homeless and exiled because of the wars triggered by the existence and continous expansion of Israel


.

[Moskal']

Originally posted by andak01
What if we had, from the start, gone to the Arab nations and said, there is this Osamu Bin Laden that we are after. He claims that Palestine is the problem. Reduce the Hamas to nothing and hand him over to us and we will help you with your education deficiency and with your agriculture and you'll get a state of Palestine. Make it clear to your people that resisting this plan will delay the creation of a state of Palestine and cooperation will speed up the process. What's more, any government that cooperates with this plan gets to stay in power, and any that doesn't will be invaded by our troops.

Now is that the same as paying off Bin Laden? Bin Laden is in prison, Al Qaida and Hamas are destroyed by Arab means. In other words, make it clear that the only way of achieving the ends is through a peaceful means. Now Bin Laden et al would have nothing to fight for, because it would be clear that such fighting would be going against the interests of the very people he is trying to recruit. As it stands today, many Arabs are so afraid of being invaded, that they don't think it makes any difference which side they fight for. North Korea has made it clear to them that might does make right, that owning nuclear weapons is the only way to prevent regiem change. I'm not saying that it is, but the Arabs may believe that at this point.

Education is the key to stopping the creation of new martyrs. Building schools, and more importantly allowing people to go to them for free.

How's this for a proposal? Take the children who are found throwing rocks and force them to go to schule and learn the Torah! That's a punishment they would really fear! :D

A nice dream. Alas, the problem is, that neighter Bin Laden, nor Hamas, nor PLO fight for peace, nor do they fight for 'the palestinians'. They fight against Israel. Not more, not less.

If PLO wanted, it could let the children go to schools, it could build a civil infrastructure during the oslo age. They haven't. Not money is the problem. Not Hamas is the obstacle, nor the feeling of weakness. The obstacle is the lack of will, the other goal.

They could get all they could get via negotiations. They prefer to demand more.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]When you say this to them (should we call this "negationism"?), don't be surprised the palestinians answer: "OK, there is no such country as Israel either then". Nearly all the arguments you use could be turned against Israel.


The Palestinians are the Arabs, plain garden variety. Explain what differs them from the Egyptian, Syrian, Jordanian, Iraqi Arabs.

Saying "they do not exist" amounts to the intention of destroying them, and legitimize the recourse to terrorism because then, they are fighting for their very existence as a people

Wrong. I want them to be happy and prosperous. You want to keep them in misery because you have "ideas", so you think you can judge other people and you know better what's right.
Why don't you and your friends leave the Jews alone and start development and building, instead of sacrificing their children, degrading and destroying.



So please recognize the existence of millions palestinians, most of them made homeless and exiled because of the wars triggered by the existence and continous expansion of Israel


Perfect example. Why do you blame the Jews for the wars started by the Arabs? A little quiz for those weak in history dept.

1. Who did not accept the partition plan of 1947?
2. Who started the war of 1948?
3. Who kept YESHA illegally occupied 1948-1967?
4. Why there were no talks about the state then?
5. Who started the war of 1967 by closing the straits?
6. Explain why Israel's existence is a threat? Why not France's or Canada's or Syria's?
7. What does continuous expansion of Israel mean? Compare the maps of 1968 and today first.

Answer these Qs as well as others I asked you in another thread (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=54402#post54402) if you want to be taken seriously. Better yet, do some learning first, then come back.

[userper]

GW Bush is on the ususal Arab appeasement binge.

The fact is Bush will ignore terrorism against America, why not Israel? After all the US military has suffered almost 50 dead since the Iraq War "ended" but seeks not only to cut deals with terrorist groups for political ends but the whole scale cover-up of terrorism for his oil friends. Saudi Arabia in particular.

See http://www.sullivan-county.com/id2/list.htm

The article below by Arlene Peck shows my view of this "Roadmap" to appeasement.


The Greatest Double Cross

By Arlene Peck

Sad, isn’t it that the next generation, George Jr. apparently hasn’t learned from the mistakes of his father. Yet, why do I get the feeling that President George W Bush is heading towards selling Israel out and is on the verge of the greatest double-cross since the Allied nations sold the Sudetenland to Adolph Hitler.”

I was delighted with the conduct of our President and Britain’s Prime Minister Tony Blair during our Iraq crisis. However, I get the feeling that they are in the process of making Israel a sacrificial lamb in their efforts to give themselves a public relations counterbalance to the war against Iraq?

Folks, I don’t feel reassured. Israel is on the chopping block to pay for Bush and Blair’s political history and the future benevolence of the Arab nations to like us again. I hope that, unlike his father, President Bush doesn’t’ underestimate the power of the Christian Coalition or the American Congress.


Or, maybe we should wait for the members of the United Nations to show how they have arranged “a just and fair peace in the middle east?” Unfortunately, according to them, the previous deals with the Israelis are going to be called off. Remember? Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Bush promise before anything would be done, the Palestinians would cease their terror attacks, stop the hate filled writing from their newspapers, remove the books that are used throughout the region to train their children to hate and kill their Jewish neighbors. Oh yes, and have a workable democracy. The Israelis, are probably feeling like Charlie Brown when Lucy holds the football.

Does anyone besides me see something wrong with the Arabs giving up nothing but the promise not to kill more Jews that week? And, we all know what comes out of their minds and mouths is truthful. Meanwhile, Israel, as usual, has an imposed list of concessions a mile long. While all the Arabs have to do is promise to ‘reform’ themselves. Fool me again? No, I think not.

Is Bush going back to the unworkable premise of Oslo to appease the European Union? Gawd, you’d think that we would learn that the United Nations is not a body of men that can be trusted when it comes to Israel. Hey, this self-serving group isn’t a body of anything other than self-serving entities. This is the same group of men who gave Libya the leadership of the committee on Human Rights, and also let Iraq head the Global Disarmament Committee Security Council.

This, I believe, is the time to review our current policies and plans for the future. For all practical purposes, to our credit, we are no longer in the United Nations and, we should stay out.



The French are coming in, after the fact. Along with the Germans and Russians, have done everything to support the enemy and sabotage our policies. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.



Do you think that they care for one minute what happens to the Jews in Israel? In the best of times, and even with their favored countries, what they do best is to cry over corpses. In the Middle East, they don’t even notice the carnage when it is the “Zionists” who are being slaughtered. After the fact, this Euro-trash voices phony condolences over the Holocaust. Yet, their parents were the first to send them to the camps and take over their property and valuables.



Israel cannot be allowed to be sacrificed by the appeasement of Bush or Blair so they might keep their political parties intact. Because, long after they’ve gone from the scene, the damage to the Jewish people by the “peace settlement" which has been imposed with the Quartet has done its damage. Possibly for good. They would have created the world's most concentrated terror apparatus ever known, which would only serve to facilitate its continuing terrorism on Israelis.

It bothers me greatly that the entire International world is busily endorsing and planning the Palestinian state to be carved out of the State of Israel. And, given the current circumstances, it is ludicrous to even consider such a state.



Any kind of a Road Map, which is planned as a Palestinian terrorist state in the heartland of Israel, and implemented to chop up the State of Israel, is a guarantee for the destruction of Israel. At this point, I am so suspicious of the United States allies that I have no confidence in any who might become involved in the “Road Map” Good Lord, our “friends and allies” have been shown to be actively working against our country and aiding and abetting the enemy. France, since the Gulf War, has sold Iraq the planes, which were being used to shoot our soldiers. Russia has sent ‘advisors’ to Iraq, the same as they did during Viet Nam to train our enemies. And, they are still doing that! I’ve never trusted the Germans and Italy had protest marches a million strong against Americans! Send them into Israel as peace keepers? I’d rather send the fox into the henhouse.



Recently, I received press reports that the CIA has now set up a department to implement the road map. They are gearing up to be involved in the supervision and monitoring which has been proposed by those longtime enemies of Israel, the European Union, Russia, and the United Nations. Well, why not? They did a wonderful job training a generation of Palestinian snipers. So, now all those thousands and thousands of “Palestinian Police” that Nobel Prize laureate Shimon Peres stupidly supplied with guns are able to use their CIA trained skills to murder Israelis. Lovely. We’ve all seen how marvelous it’s worked with the United Nations. Now, the CIA can have its Palestinian allies give them needed information relating to other terrorist groups while ignoring any help that might be given to Israel.



The CIA’s first duty is to serve America’s interest, no matter who is hurt. Which reminds me. Did I mention that there is one team within the CIA that’s supposed to focus on the reorganization of the Palestinians security services? Just what Israel needs, a better organized Palestinian army? Oh yes, and let’s not forget, there is a ‘special operations committee that is going to implement the settlement freeze. Wow, it’s about time that someone dealt with the rapid growth of Arab settlements. However, the last I heard, it is going to be for the Israeli settlements, and they are going to force the evacuation of the illegal outposts. And, the reopening of Palestinian institutions, which were being used to incite hate and promote terrorism



I’ve long written how there is a double standard when it comes to anything involved with Israel. Isn't there something wrong with a road map that allows the soverign State of Israel to be chopped up like a salami? Yet, the “Quartet” is gearing up to implement a “ side-by-side” Palestinian state next, (within?) Israel. Has anyone bothered to ask the Jewish State what is acceptable to the Jewish people? Does anyone care? These Islamic fundamentalists have no intentions of living side-by-side with anyone! If they have their say the Christian and Jewish minorities in their own countries will be removed and replaced with Islam. Life has absolutely no value to their culture and I believe it to be a hateful one filled with violence

[rferry]

Originally posted by userper
GW Bush is on the ususal Arab appeasement binge.

The fact is Bush will ignore terrorism against America, why not Israel? After all the US military has suffered almost 50 dead since the Iraq War "ended" but seeks not only to cut deals with terrorist groups for political ends but the whole scale cover-up of terrorism for his oil friends. Saudi Arabia in particular.

the only terrorist network we have cut deals with was the MKO who we had allowed to maintain a political presence in DC. the Saudi Arabian regime deserves to be overthrown for all i care (mainly for their human rights abuses, as well as their 'humanitarian' connections to Hamas and the Wahhabism movements), but again this has been a long practice. it's not a recent phenomenon and not out of character for a neo-imperialist power and definetly not an attempt to undermine Israel's right to exist.
you know some of you sound like the American government is in on some big cabal, maybe your anti-Americanism can be the basis of a peace plan that you and the Islamists and arab nationalists can agree on. :mad:

[userper]

< [B]the only terrorist network we have cut deals with was the MKO who we had allowed to maintain a political presence in DC. >

Wrong. We are the ones who created bin Laden as a dumb idea to fight communism under Carter, Daddy Bush.

< but again this has been a long practice>

Yes and that led directly to 911. It's time to end this "whore" relationship with Saudi Arabia and other terror states.

< definetly not an attempt to undermine Israel's right to exist.>

Saudi financing of terrorism and threatening sanctions against Israel to appease anti-Western hate regimes like Saudi Arabia and Egypt isn't screwing Israel?

What about the Saudi led oil embargo of 1973? Their fear of Iran is the only thing that stops them. Our "crack whore" oil addiction and refusal to deal with our energy problems leave us open to black mail and the war on terrorism a joke. If we lose Israel, who will be next?

This is the same Bush that protects Sudan from economic sanctions congress wants to impose because of murder and genocide against non-Muslims. Oil "whore" again.

< maybe your anti-Americanism can be the basis of a peace plan that you and the Islamists and arab nationalists can agree on.


Few of us, myself included, are anti-American and just the opoosite in fact. Our troops shouldn't be put in harms way while those that celebrate them being shot in the back and dance in the street get just what they demand. Another Arab terrror state.

Isn't it funny how many of those mythical "Palestinian" Arabs hold Jordanian passports?

When does one become a terrorist network, when they don't work for the US governent at the time?

The US needs to adapt a hard stand: no dealing with any terrorist groups or country for any reason. As a Bush said "those that support terrorism are terrorists" as I remember.

The PLO is a terrorist organizartion. Saudi Arabia, Syria, and even Egypt support terrorism, that makes them terrorist states regardless of the lip service or political rhetoric.

The US sells out our troops, fellow democracies such as Israel and India, etc. to appease and protect terrorist groups and states. That makes those in America that do that just what George Bush claims.

Yes this has gone on for years, that's why I left the military because I wasn't going to watch innocent poeple including Americans die.

Either get our people out of Iraq or stop stabbing them in the back. Selling out Israel to Arab terrorists will make the next betrayal eaisier.

[rferry]

the only time the U.S. gave support to a organization or nation that was actively attacking Israel's pre-67 borders was when we were supporting Saddam's training of ANO and PLF-Abu Abbas and his killling of Iranians and Kurds with chemical agents.

the information so far out is that Saudi Arabia is providing 'humanitarian' assistance to Hamas' benevolent institutions. i suspect that there's been a bit of book fixing to secure that into place. anyways, we should have a consistent position on these things. the humanitarian assistance that Iraq was supplying to Palestinians was no different than Saudi Arabia but somehow it was hyped up to mean "Iraq supports al-qaeda like terrorists". again, all this does is to destabilize Israel perhaps to the point that it elects leftists who will create a Palestinian state or elects rightists who will destroy terrorists but not terrorist networks. Israel's right to exist, atleast within it's pre-'67 borders, may be challenged by words but without intervention by a foreign power it's only possible destruction will come from within.

as for the PLO-dominated PA (thanks to American pressure and Israel's acceptance to recognize Egyptians, Syrians, and Tunisians as the representatives of Palestinians), i've seen evidence that they have been unwilling to stop known terrorist attacks. that's a far cry from saying that the PA and Hamas are the one in the same. rather that the PA is an ineffective corrupt government that has no right to speak for the Palestinain people.

[humus_sapiens]

Shades of Oslo (By Charles Krauthammer)

The Washington Post
June 6, 2003

President Bush held two Middle East summits this week. The first, with the Arab states, was an abject failure. The second, with the prime ministers of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, was merely a troubling echo of another abject failure, the Oslo handshake of 1993.

Let's be plain about what happened at Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt. The president of the United States put his prestige on the line for the sake of Arab-Israeli peace and the Arab states gave him nothing. They refused to endorse Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state. They spoke of their opposition to "terrorism," even as they repeatedly present their own publics with the most elaborate intellectual and religious justifications of why the killing of Jews in "Palestine" is "resistance" and not terrorism.

They did not take a single concrete action, not even a gesture, toward Israel. Egypt did not offer to return its ambassador to Israel. The Saudis threatened a boycott if Israel was even invited. And most important, the Arab states refused what Bush most desperately wanted: explicit endorsement of the American view that Yasser Arafat's time had come and passed.

That would have been crucial in elevating Mahmoud Abbas, who appears to want to make peace. What did Bush do? What American presidents always do in response to such rebuffs: smile politely and say thank you.

Then on to the second summit at Aqaba, Jordan. Here, Bush managed to extract enormous concessions from Israel. Ariel Sharon's speech was revolutionary. He explicitly recognized the legitimacy of a Palestinian state. He further recognized that the state would need to be "contiguous," which instantly conceded to the Palestinians most of the territories in the West Bank and Gaza. And even more painful for Sharon was his statement, largely overlooked, that "no unilateral actions by any party can prejudge the outcome of our negotiations." ("Unilateral actions" is Middle East-speak for settlements, which means that in drawing the final border between Israel and Palestine, Jewish settlements would be of no account.)

This is a serious moving of the goal posts. What did Bush get out of Abbas? Did Abbas recognize Israel as a Jewish state? No. He refused to give up the Palestinian principle of "return," which means eradicating Israel by flooding it with millions of Palestinian refugees (most of whom, by the way, have never lived in Israel). Yet without recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, there is nothing to prevent the disaster of Camp David 2000, when Arafat, after pocketing truly astonishing Israeli concessions, insisted at the last minute that there would be no deal unless Israel agreed to commit suicide by allowing the refugees to move to Israel, instead of to their homeland of Palestine.

What did Abbas offer? An end to terrorism. Fine. But until the lip service is carried out, this is nothing but a restatement of the famous letter from Arafat to Yitzhak Rabin -- September 1993 -- in which he pledged that "the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence."

At Aqaba, Abbas recognized Israel. So did Arafat pretend to 10 years ago in the first line of the Oslo agreement.

Abbas pledged there will be no more incitement of hatred against Israel --another repetition of another Oslo pledge. The Palestinians then spent the next decade poisoning their children with the worst anti-Semitic propaganda since the Third Reich.

What then happened at Aqaba? Israel bought the same rug a second time. In 1993, it bought supposed recognition, a supposed end to violence and a supposed end to incitement by recognizing the PLO, bringing Arafat and his terrorists out of Tunis, planting them in the heart of Palestine, giving them control of all the major Palestinian cities, outfitting his army with Israeli rifles, etc.

In 2003 the rug was sold again, this time fetching Israeli acceptance of a Palestinian state with contiguous borders in which Israeli settlements are uprooted. This might be the outline of the final settlement. But these were concessions given away before the negotiations even began .

The unilateral surrender of Israel continues.

Now, forcing the unilateral surrender of Israel might be a policy, if it promised peace. But the first round of unilateral concessions, from 1993 to 2000, yielded nothing but the establishment of a terror base in Palestine -- a "Trojan horse," as Faisal Husseini called it, from which the bloodiest Palestinian violence has been launched.

There is only one hope that we will not repeat that doleful experiment. And that is if Bush is serious -- as President Clinton was not -- about requiring more than just words from the Palestinians. Abbas must end the incitement, stop the violence and disarm the terrorists. Bush, having taken his friend Sharon to the cleaners, needs now to make sure that Abbas keeps his word.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
The "roadmap" simply says the parties will negotiate a solution regarding refugees. Since there were several hundred thousands of Jews stripped of their property by Arab dictators, it's not a one-sided issue. Israel needs to do a better job exposing how the Arabs have carefuly maintained the Palestinians and their descendents in "camps" designed to breed terrorists.


The thing is, you are not talking with rational and reasonable people so I wonder, when the roadtrap (sorry Road Map) says includes an agreed, just, fair, and realistic solution to the refugee issue, what do they think is "realistic"?

[yoyo]

Beside the fact that I think Sharon, along with many Israeli ambassadors and politicians do not weight the power of words in Europe (like justifying attack by calling "occupation" and destroying the argument put forward from Jews in the Diaspora), I think that one good thing will come out of this roadtrap: This will be the final showdown that will proove to Israeli that there is NO DIPLOMATIC SOLUTION to this conflict. The thing is, would a US President will go as far as bringing sanctions against Israel? I don't think so, I think there is going to be a massive argument on a scale never seen before and I don't give 6 month to any President that manage semehow to pass it (maybe through the UN pending Congress approval), to withdraw it.

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http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=2357
Spies Like Us
Michelle Nevada
03 June 2003

My mother is very wise, and she has a simple philosophy for dealing with people: “People are like horses. In order to get anywhere, you must make them feel like they are in control, while you hold firmly to the reins.” This is the phrase that has long stuck in my head to explain how G-d allows us to make choices, but things always work out the way G-d intended. G-d makes us feel like we are in control, while G-d holds firmly to the reigns. That is why the compounding ironies I see regarding the upcoming Roadmap conference in Aqaba come as no surprise to me.

First, there is the irony that the conference is at Aqaba. The original venue of the conference, in Egypt, had to be changed at the last minute, and Aqaba was the next best thing, or so the uninformed might presume.

Actually, Aqaba is the perfect thing. Aqaba is the reputed locale of two important incidents in Torah: the giving of the Torah, and the dispatching of the Spies. It is Supreme Irony (capitalization intended) that there will be a conference to give G-d´s land away to terrorists near the very same location where these two amazing events occurred, and on Erev Shavuot, no less!

Can no one else see these signs? Am I the only one who sees this? On Erev Shavuot, we will be given a choice between following Torah and following false spies. It is so clear, and so simple.

The giving of the Torah was the moment that Jews made a covenant with G-d regarding the land of Israel. G-d promised the land; Jews promised that they would take possession of the land. That, my friends, occurred on Shavuot, at the base of a mountain very near Aqaba.

The story of the spies, if you don’t know the story from Parshat Shelach, was the tragic event that insured the Jewish people would spend 40 years in the desert. G-d told Moses to send the leaders of the tribes into the land of Israel as spies. Most of the spies returned to say it was too dangerous to take the land, but Caleb and Joshua disagreed: “You should not fear the people of the Land, for they are our bread. Their protection has departed from them; G-d is with us. Do not fear them!” At that, the entire population tried to stone Caleb and Joshua to death. G-d protected Caleb and Joshua, killed the false spies with a plague, and sent the rest of the Jews to spend 40 years in the desert until every man over the age of 20 died – with the notable exception of Caleb and Joshua.

The whole point of this story, of course, was that Israel was not ready to take possession of the land, because they lacked faith in their role as G-d´s people. The people put their faith in their leaders instead of their G-d. Over the next 40 years, the Jews wandered homeless. Rather than claiming their homeland and fighting for their rights, they lost thousands of men in the wilderness, with nothing to show for those battles. Rather than simply taking strength and faith in G-d from the beginning, the Jews had to learn faith and find that strength in 40 years of study and toil. What could have been easy, and was clearly promised, was rejected and slandered.

Our problem then, and our problem now, are one. We must show that we are clearly ready to take possession of land that G-d had promised us. We must not soothe our worries and our fears by looking for a leader to bring us back to what we are familiar with, what we were comfortable with, and what we have understood: slavery. Even as free people, with G-d clearly pulling for us, were are frightened to see our special role in the world, and we look for "political solutions" to problems that should have been easily and quickly solved. But we choose the "political" solutions, and through those "political solutions" we find ourselves homeless, and in a more difficult situation than we could have ever imagined.

So, here’s the deal. On Erev Shavuot we have to make a choice, the same choice our forefathers made, at the same time, and near the same location. It is a simple choice: we follow Torah and take possession of the entire land of Israel, or we follow those who complain, “Why is G-d bringing us to this Land to die by the sword?”

This time, at Aqaba, may our faith in our covenant with G-d overcome the fears and the false reports of those who would despair at the beauty and the promise of Israel. Our leaders may think that they are in control. I just hope we all remember who holds the reins.
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Michelle Nevada lives in a small town in rural Nevada. She can be contacted at Michelle_Nevada@yahoo.com.