The true meaning of the Road Map: The Endgame begins

[MGB8]

The Roadmap, IMO, was not accepted by Israel because ANYONE believed that it would lead to peace. On the contrary, the Roadmap was accepted BECAUSE IT WOULD FAIL.

It would fail BECAUSE the Palestinians, and many Arabs, would have their true, and unequivacle aims exposed to the World - the destruction of Israel.

Already this has begun, with Arafat, with Hamas, and with Iran and Syria.

This American President, and almost as importantly, his staff - Condi Rice, Rumsfeld, and Cheney in particular, are much more aware of what is and isn't truth in this conflict, and, because of September 11, 2001, the truth of this conflict matters much more now, as the problem of Islamic Imperialist aims has now become something that must be addressed.


Why do their true aims being revealed matter to Israel?

Economics. Israel lives in a world economy, and is dependant not only on the US, but also to a much lesser extent on Europe for continued trade. The threat of a South Africa like Boycott is very real, and very concerning to Israel's leaders.

Without those true aims being revealed, Israel cannot claim the moral high ground and thus have "permission" to fight the war in earnest. Now, as those aims become undeniable, the World is PUBLICALLY giving the Palestinian PEOPLE a choice - PERMANENT AGREEMENT TO CO-EXIST with ISRAEL, or war.


Why Iraq changed things:

Iraq provides two things for Israel - (1) a Model for rebuilding Palestinian Society, and (2) an American Military presence in the mideast that forces the Arab nations to reconsider making peace with Israel, or face possible obliteration from without or within.


THE ENDGAME:

What happens now is simple. The Pal Arabs will make their choice. 99% it will be to continue to war. When that happens, Abu Mazen will be expected to act against those forces. he will be unable to.

Thus, ISRAEL will be given permission to CRUSH Hamas, Jihad Islami, Fatah and Hezbollah (also). It will be very close to open war, and Political leaders WILL NOT be exempt - because they are a big part of the problem.

After this war, in which NONE OF THE OTHER ARAB nations will be able to come to the Pal Arabs Terrorists Aid, because of the American Military presence and also because by doing so they are publically rejecting Israel's right to exist....Israel and the US will begin an Iraq like Project for the Palestinians.

The end result will be that there will be some form of continuous Palestinian "state" - but for the first decade or two it will be essentially be run/supervised by Israel and the US. Its textbooks, teachings, Media, Mosques, etc. will be made to put forth messages of co-existance and the legitimacy of Israel.

Israel will control the borders and the airspace of this quasi-state, which will have a more or less unarmed police force. Israel will also guarantee that this state exists. In short, the State will be similar of an Israeli version of an American "territory" - but without one citizenship. It will be designed to one day be completely autonomous in terms of internal governance, but will always be controled by Israel and the US in terms of its borders and military aspects.

[Am Yisrael]

This is highly interesting. Brilliant thread. I agree with your views about the road map totally. For Israel to go ahead with this howver, she must implement herself 100% into the road map or else propoganda will go out playing Israel as the one who had choose to reject the roadmap first. I guess that is what Sharon is trying to do by the great gestures he put forward recently to the Palestinians.

I do not like the prospect of war. If this can be sorted out with peace... let it be. We will give them one last chance... which is why we have another roadmap. They decide their fates though. No more BS.

[MGB8]

The hard part is that Israelis, and the world, need to realize that the heart of the problem of the Arab Israeli conflict is the same problem that causes Bin Laden, etc. - the problem of Arab pride and Mythology.

The Arabs have been a humbled people for a long, long time. The Turks ruled them, and then the Europeans, and the Europeans had influence over them ever since the Moors were kicked out.

In the far east, this resulted in Imerialist Japan. However, post WWII this need was defeated and Japan found its pride from its history and technologies and being part of the world, not battling to rule it.

The Arabs too need some sort of rallying cry to elavate their self worth as a people. They look at the West, they look at Israel - a tiny bunch of Jews who have defeated them over and over again and live with a much higher lifestyle, despite the arabs having the world most important resource - oil, and embargoing Israel from it....and they are ashamed.

This leads to the need in some to "defeat" their "betters."

So they invented the Mythology of "the Nakba" and use teh refugees, etc., to continue their fight.

The Arab people need to understand that they have been duped by their leaders, as it is their leadership - POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS, who are truly at fault for the backwardness of the arab islamic world. They must be re-educated as to the truth of history, the shameful acts committed by their leadership, and shown how they can re-enter the world. Only then will their be peace.



Originally posted by Am Yisrael
This is highly interesting. Brilliant thread. I agree with your views about the road map totally. For Israel to go ahead with this howver, she must implement herself 100% into the road map or else propoganda will go out playing Israel as the one who had choose to reject the roadmap first. I guess that is what Sharon is trying to do by the great gestures he put forward recently to the Palestinians.

I do not like the prospect of war. If this can be sorted out with peace... let it be. We will give them one last chance... which is why we have another roadmap. They decide their fates though. No more BS.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by MGB8
The Arab people need to understand that they have been duped by their leaders, as it is their leadership - POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS, who are truly at fault for the backwardness of the arab islamic world. They must be re-educated as to the truth of history, the shameful acts committed by their leadership, and shown how they can re-enter the world. Only then will their be peace.

Unfortunalely, big part of the problem is tribal nature of Arab Islamic society. These changes take generations - or a big shock, as in WW2 Japan :((. The new leadership has to emerge and be deeply committed in advancing this forward. So far we see push backwards.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Unfortunalely, big part of the problem is tribal nature of Arab Islamic society. These changes take generations - or a big shock, as in WW2 Japan :((. The new leadership has to emerge and be deeply committed in advancing this forward. So far we see push backwards.
But what will it take to bring the Pals to the table in good faith? Arafat and his minions cannot, it is not in their nature or agenda. Negotiating with Jews is verboten. Short of a popular revolution aomng the Palestinian people, can there be a peaceful solution? I think much more blood will be shed before this even hints at a settlement that will lead to peace.

[yehudi]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
This is highly interesting. Brilliant thread. I agree with your views about the road map totally. For Israel to go ahead with this howver, she must implement herself 100% into the road map or else propoganda will go out playing Israel as the one who had choose to reject the roadmap first.You are //edit: quite// hypocritical with the roadmap.

Anyway your opinion, as well as the opinion of ibrodsky is public, so well-informed people know what they are up against.

Anyone here used the word 'weasels' lately?

.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by yehudi
[B]You are completely hypocritical with the roadmap.

Not completely.... Got a problem with that punk?

My view is that there is a very very slim chance that the roadmap will succeed. Nevertheless Israel will grasp that chance for "peace" (ie Palestinian state) and hopefully we can settle this like grown ups. However, if the roadmap does not succeed due to Palestinian lack of commitment, then I feel we should look at alternative options to peace. Getting rid of the PA is a start....

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Am Yisrael
My view is that there is a very very slim chance that the roadmap will succeed. Nevertheless Israel will grasp that chance for "peace" (ie Palestinian state) and hopefully we can settle this like grown ups. However, if the roadmap does not succeed due to Palestinian lack of commitment, then I feel we should look at alternative options to peace. Getting rid of the PA is a start....
I think you are an optimist. I don't see how the "road map" is anything but a non-starter. Already the Pals have sabotaged it. How can it ever lead to peace. The good thing that I have seen to date is that the rest of the Arab world is at least in discussion of peace. If they are in good faith, something I cannot but question, perhaps they will bring their power to bear on the Pals to negotiate and cooperate. We shall see.

[Am Yisrael]

Originally posted by JustPat
[B]I think you are an optimist.

According to Yehudi im not an optimist. Im a hypocritical paranoid person that would rather kill everyone then settle this by the table - according to Yehudi.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by JustPat
I think you are an optimist. I don't see how the "road map" is anything but a non-starter. Already the Pals have sabotaged it. How can it ever lead to peace. The good thing that I have seen to date is that the rest of the Arab world is at least in discussion of peace. If they are in good faith, something I cannot but question, perhaps they will bring their power to bear on the Pals to negotiate and cooperate. We shall see.

I think you are misreading this discussion. The thread was started by MGB8 to suggest that the "road map" is really designed to prove the Palestinians are not interested in peace.

This is an interesting theory.

My own theory is that the "road map" was designed to instigate a Palestinian civil war. I believe these two theories are closely related.

Of course, we are reading much more into the "road map" than is on the surface. I'm sure that both the U.S. and Israel would be very happy if the Palestinians actually fullfilled their obligations under the "road map." But I very much doubt that either the U.S. or Israel harbors illusions.

I would be concerned if at some point it became clear that President Bush is clinging to the "road map" and pressuring Israel to simply absorb mass murder attacks rather than jeopardize the "peace process" by defending herself.

But I think right now most of the pressure is on Abu Mazen to fight Hamas, IJ, and Al Aqsa. I don't see President Bush saying it's OK to just arrange a temporary halt to terrorist attaks. He knows full well that Palestinian terrorists support Al Qaeda and supported Saddam. It's just a matter of methods and timing...

[JustPat]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I think you are misreading this discussion. The thread was started by MGB8 to suggest that the "road map" is really designed to prove the Palestinians are not interested in peace.

This is an interesting theory.

My own theory is that the "road map" was designed to instigate a Palestinian civil war. I believe these two theories are closely related.

Of course, we are reading much more into the "road map" than is on the surface. I'm sure that both the U.S. and Israel would be very happy if the Palestinians actually fullfilled their obligations under the "road map." But I very much doubt that either the U.S. or Israel harbors illusions.

I would be concerned if at some point it became clear that President Bush is clinging to the "road map" and pressuring Israel to simply absorb mass murder attacks rather than jeopardize the "peace process" by defending herself.

But I think right now most of the pressure is on Abu Mazen to fight Hamas, IJ, and Al Aqsa. I don't see President Bush saying it's OK to just arrange a temporary halt to terrorist attaks. He knows full well that Palestinian terrorists support Al Qaeda and supported Saddam. It's just a matter of methods and timing...
You and MGB8 may both be right.

Obviously, at least to date, the PA has shwn absolutely no change in direction, no desire to negotiate a true and lasting peace and no intention of combating the like of Hamas and its brothers in blood. The question then becomes the lead in to your premise, "Are the Palestinian people willing to follow leaders who will keep them trapped in the current vortex of violence, or will they rise up, demand a cessation of violence and a change of leadership?"

I hold out little hope for a civil unrest solution. Remember, this is a people schooled, literally, in hatred and bigotry. The children are programmed for the violence the meet out and endure. The situation looks relatively hopeless without someone rising up to lead them into a change in thinking as well as a change in practice. I don't see anyone on the horizon that has that kind of vision or drive. I cannot imagine that anyone would dare stick his head up to take such a lead until arafat is no longer listed among the living.