miracles in quran .... [Archive]

Right defender

03-13-2002, 08:53 AM

The Qur'an was revealed in the seventh century. Many statements pertaining to physical phenomena are dispersed throughout the Qur'an. These are there in the Qur'an to draw the attention of people to the wonders of Allah's creation. Any other seventh century book making statements about the physical universe would surely contain mistakes. Our knowledge of physical sciences in the twentieth century is far advanced beyond the imagination of people living in the seventh century. What will come as a surprise to many people is that of all the numerous statements about scientific matters found in the Qur'an, not one of those have proved contrary to the established facts of science. On the other hand, many of those statements have already been verified by modern scientific studies, and we confidently expect that as various fields of knowledge advance, other Quranic statements will likewise prove true.
Let us look at some of the statements which science has already verified.
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1- THE FUSING AND SEPARATING OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH ...

How do modern scientists explain the formation of the universe? Dr. Maurice Bucaille explains it in his book, The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, as follows: "The basic process in the formation of the universe . . . Lay in the condensing of material in the primary nebula followed by its division into fragments that originally constituted galactic masses. The latter in their turn split up into stars that provided the subproduct of the process, i.e. the planets" (p. 149). Does the Qur'an say anything about this condensing and separation of the primary material to result in the formation of our universe? Let's have a look. The creator, Allah, says in his final
book: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were fused together, then we separated them . . ." (Qur'an 21:30).
Dr. Bucaille sees this as "the reference to a separation process of a primary single mass whose elements were initially fused together" (p.143). Thus the Qur'an gives an accurate account of the formation of the universe to call upon humankind to recognize the power of their creator.
This raises an interesting question: How could a man living in the seventh century invent these ideas which could not be confirmed until modern times? And how could he in so doing avoid the mythical and fanciful ideas prevalent in human history? Dr. Bucaille mentions some of these myths for contrast: "When, as in Japan, the image of the egg plus an expression of chaos is attached to the above with the idea of a seed inside an egg (as for all eggs), the imaginative addition makes the concept lose all semblance of seriousness. In other countries, the idea of a plant is associated with it; the plant grows and in so doing raises up the sky and separates the heavens from the earth. Here again, the imaginative quality of the added detail lends the myth its very distinctive character" (p. 152).
In contrast to those myths, the Qur'anic statements are "free from any of the whimsical details accompanying such beliefs; on the contrary, they are distinguished by the sober quality of the words in which they are made, and their agreement with scientific data" (p. 152).
It must be that the Qur'an is not the product of any human or humans, but a revelation from Allah. The Qur'an says: "The revelation of the scripture whereof there is no doubt is from the Lord of the Worlds" (Qur'an 32:2).
The Sun is a star that is roughly 4.5 billion years old, according to experts in astrophysics. It is possible to (distinguish a stage in its evolution, as one can for all the stars. At present, the Sun is at an early stage, characterized by the transformation of hydrogen atoms into helium atoms. Theoretically, this present stage should last another 5.5 billion years according to calculations that allow a total of 10 billion years for the duration of the primary stage in a star of this kind. It has already been shown, in the case of these other stars, that this stage gives way to a second period characterized by the completion of the transformation of hydrogen into helium, with the resulting expansion of its external layers and the cooling of the Sun. In the final stage, its light is greatly diminished and density considerably increased; this is to be observed in the type of star known as a 'white dwarf'.
The above dates are only of interest in as far as they give a rough estimate of the time factor involved, what is worth remembering and is really the main point of the above, is the notion of an evolution. Modern data allow us to predict that, in a few billion years, the conditions prevailing in the solar system will not be the same as they are today. Like other stars whose transformations have been recorded until they reached their final stage, it is possible to predict an end to the Sun. The second verse quoted above (sura 36, verse 38) referred to the Sun running its course towards a place of its own. Modern astronomy has been able to locate it exactly and has even given it a name, the Solar Apex: the solar system is indeed evolving in space towards a point situated in the Constellation of Hercules (alpha lyrae) whose exact location is firmly established; it is moving at a speed already ascertained at something in the region of 12 miles per second. All these astronomical data deserve to be mentioned in relation to the two verses from the Qur'an. Since it is possible to state that they appear to agree perfectly with modern scientific data.

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2- FROM A GASEOUS MASS TO THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH ....

Concerning the creation of the heavens and the earth, the Qur'an says that prior to the creation, the Heaven was smoke. God then commanded it and the earth to come into being and they came willingly (see surah 41:1 1). How does that compare with modern scientific explanations? Let us hear a scientific explanation and then judge for ourselves.
The French scientist Dr. Maurice Bucaille in his book called The Bible, the Qur'an and Science explains: "At the earliest time it can provide us with, modern science has every reason to maintain that the universe was formed from a gaseous mass principally composed of hydrogen and a certain amount of helium that was slowly rotating" (p.147). (Big Bang Theory)
Didn't the Qur'an say that the Heaven was smoke before its creation? Dr. Bucaille explains the connection between his description and that of the Qur'an as follows: "Smoke is generally made up of a gaseous substratum, plus, in more or less stable suspension, fine particles that may belong to solid and even liquid states of matter at high or low temperature" (p. 143).
He therefore sees no contradiction of the Quranic use of the Arabic word dukhan (translated smoke) and a modern interpretation of that word as a gaseous mass with fine particles when speaking of the formation of the universe.
We notice here two remarkable features of the Qur'an. The first feature is that it expresses scientific truths that will be verified many centuries later. The second feature is that the Qur'an expresses those truths using terms and expressions that would avoid confusing its first readers in the seventh century. The seventh century reader of the Qur'an can easily relate to the image of smoke, and the twentieth century scientist can easily interpret the word as a gaseous mass

Right defender

03-13-2002, 09:31 AM

3- AVOIDING THE MISTAKES OF GENESIS ...

As we saw in chapter 2, both the Quran and modern science confirm that the heavens and the earth were created simultaneously, having been separated from a primary nebula. It is important to understand that the Bible, the most famous record of the creation prior to the Quran gives a sequence for the creation of the heavens and the earth that is today found unacceptable from a scientific standpoint. If the Quran was the work of human beings it is difficult to imagine how they could have avoided the human errors so firmly fixed in the minds of people from the previous records.
In the Bible, in Genesis, chapter 1, we read that God created light which He called day, and separated it from the darkness which He called night (see v. 3). Today we know that the alternation of day and night is caused by the earth's movement in relation to the sun. But, according to Genesis, the sun was not created until the fourth day (see v. 16). So how could day and night alternate before that?
A related problem is that vegetation is created on the third day (see vv. 11-12) whereas the sun which is necessary for sustaining vegetation does not appear until the fourth day.
"What is totally untenable" says Dr. Bucaille, "is that a highly organized vegetable kingdom with reproduction by seed could have appeared before the existence of the sun" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 42).
We have already seen that the Quran states, and modern science confirms, that the heavens and the earth were formed together. Dr. Bucaille explains as follows: "Earth and moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the sun. To place the creation of the sun and moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the most firmly established ideas on the formation of the elements of the solar system" (p. 42). By giving a sequence in which the sun and moon are created after the creation of the earth, the Genesis account proves erroneous. On the other hand, the Quran, by speaking of the simultaneous creation of the heavens and the earth, has judiciously avoided the errors of the Genesis account.
Could the Quran have been authored by a human? No! Dr. Bucaille asks: "How could a man living fourteen hundred years ago have made corrections to the existing description to such an extent that he eliminated scientifically inaccurate material and, on his own initiative, made statements that science has only in the present day been able to verify?" (p.151). (Dr. Bucaille was not born a muslim, but after reading the Quran and seeing how the Quran goes in such details into Science he converted to Islam.)

SIX DAYS OF CREATION OR SIX PERIODS?

Today we know that the creation process can be measured in billions of years.
The priestly editors or the Bible could not have known this. In their eagerness to enjoin Sabbath observance on others they wrote that God rested on the very first Sabbath day after finishing up his work of creating the heavens and the earth.
The six days of creation in the book of Genesis, then, are clearly like six days of any seven-day week. The Priestly editors have made it clear that a day is meant a period from one sunset to another. Six days meant from Sunday to Friday. They believed that the reason the Sabbath day became holy is that God Himself had rested on that day. Thus the editors tell us: "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done" (Genesis 2:2).
If that is not far enough, the editors took the idea that God rested farther still when they wrote as follows: "In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed" (The Holy Bible, King James Version, Exodus 31: 17).
The idea that God rests like humans and gets refreshed like humans had to be corrected by Jesus, on whom be peace, when, according to John, he declared that God never stops working, even on the Sabbath day (see John 5:16). God clarified the matter in His own words when he declared: "And verily we created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and naught of weariness touched us" (Quran 50:38 see also v. 15).
The above quranic verses clearly refute the idea that God rested. God, according to the Quran does not get tired. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes him (Quran 2:255).
But how about the period of creation? Was that six days in the Quran too? In the above quotation from the Quran the term translated 'days' could mean, according to Dr. Maurice Bucaille, "not just 'days', but also 'long periods of time', an indefinite period of time (but always long)" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 139).
Dr. Bucaille notes that the Quran also speaks of "a day whereof the measure is a thousand years of your reckoning" (Quran 32:5). The Quran also speaks of a day whereof the measure is 50,000 years" (Quran 70:4).
Dr. Bucaille also points out that long before our modern ideas of the length of time involved in the creation, commentators of the Quran understood that when the Quran speaks of six days of creation, it does not mean six days like ours, but rather six periods. Abu al Su'ud, for example, writing in the sixteenth century, understood it as six events (see The Bible, the Quran and Science, p.l39).
Again, we see that the Quran has avoided repeating an error which was established in a previous book an error that will not be discovered until modern times. In view of this, can anyone insist that the Quran is the work of a man?
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4- THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE .....

The expansion of the Universe is the most imposing discovery of modern science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate centres around the way this is taking place.
It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum; the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may be explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus the size of the Universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of light to speeds faster than this.
The following verse of the Qur'an (sura 51, verse 47) where God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas: "The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."
'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant.
'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider,
more spacious, to extend, to expand'.
Ramidullah in his translation
of the Qur'an talks of the widening of the heavens and space, but he includes a question mark. There are those who arm themselves with authorized scientific opinion in their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is true in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited by the Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers to the expansion of the Universe in totally unambiguous terms...
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Right defender

03-13-2002, 09:34 AM

5- HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?

The Bible provides a chronology of history that extends back to the creation of Adam and Eve and to the creation of the earth. From this chronology it is possible to determine the date of the creation and hence the age of the earth.
Archbishop Ussher of Armagh (1581-1657) had calculated the year of creation to be 4004 BC If that was not precise enough, Dr. Lightfoot of Cambridge worked out that the exact time when God completed His creation was 9 a.m. on Friday, October 23, 4004 BC (see the book 7whinking about God by Sr. R. W. Maqsood, p. 63).
Many religious groups and sects have used this date in predicting precise dates for the end of the world, but all such predictions have so far proved erroneous. The one fact against them is that the world is still intact and we are very much alive.One reason al1 of those predictions failed is that they are calculated from a false date of creation. If 4004 BC was the year of creation, that would make the earth less than six thousand years old. No scientist can accept this today.
Modern scientists estimate that the earth is 4.5 billion years old with a maximum error of 2.2 % (see The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 148). Knowing this, many educated people lost faith in religion. (Judaism & Christianity) They naturally felt that the Word of God should not contain errors of this kind. Others maintain that the Word of God was meant to teach only that truth which God wanted put into the scriptures for our salvation It if therefore immaterial if the book contains historical or scientific errors. As the scientist Galileo put it, the Bible is there to teach people how to go to heaven; it is not there to teach people how the heavens go. Some maintain, therefore, that it is understandable that the book will contain some historical and scientific errors since it was written by human beings who lived a long time ago and did not share our modern knowledge. (The Quran completely refutes this idea. The Quran does not contain any Scientifical mistakes like the Bible does. Did man write the Bible or God. If not God than why do they say the Holy Bible is the Word of God) The Quran, on the other hand, does not contain any historical or scientific or any kind of error. God challenges us to test this claim by examining the book for ourselves (see Quran 4:82).The Quran does not repeat the incorrect biblical chronology we have seen above. The Quran does not give a chronology since its purpose is not to provide us with the details of history, but only to teach us the lessons arising from specific events in history.
The Quran does, however tell us that God measured the sustenance of the earth in four periods (Quran 41 :10). As to what could be the significance of these four periods, Dr. Bucaille comments as follows: "One could perhaps see in them the four geological periods described by modern science, with man's appearance, as we already know, taking place in the quaternary era. This is purely a hypothesis since nobody has an answer to this question" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 150).
How did the author of the Quran avoid the mistake in chronology committed by so many others, and believed in by so many others even up to our present day? Could a man in the seventh century have known that the earth was much more than six thousand years old? How could he come by this modern knowledge unless God was revealing knowledge to him?
God tells us that the Quran is His book and not the work of any man (see Quran 10:37).

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6- INTERSTELLAR GALACTIC MATERIAL

The Quran mentions a rather curious category of created things, namely things between the heavens and the earth. Dr. Bucaille observes that this mention in the Quran "may surprise the twentieth century reader of the Quran" (The Bible, tl1e Quran and Science, p. 144). For example, one verse says as follows: "To Him (God) belongs what is in the heavens, on earth, between them and beneath the soil" (Quran 20:6; other verses include 25:59, 32:4 and 50:38).
What is that between the heavens and the earth? Dr. Bucaille explains as follows: "The creation outside the heavens and outside the earth is a priori difficult to imagine. To understand these verses, reference must be made to the most recent observations on the existence of cosmic extragalactic material, and one must indeed go back to ideas established by contemporary science on the formation of the universe . . ." (p. 145).
Scientists tell us that a primary nebula condensed, then divided up into fragments. These fragments, these galactic masses, further split up into stars and their sub-products, the planets. Each time such a division or split occurred, there remained extra material apart from the principal elements newly formed. The scientific name for these extra materials is 'interstellar galactic material'.
Is this extra material significant? Yes. Experts in astrophysics are quite aware of such material which have "a tendency to interfere with photometric measurements" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 149). The extra material is so rarefied that they may be referred to as dusts or smokes or gases. Yet they altogether occupy so much total space that they may correspond to "a mass possibly greater than the total mass of the galaxies" (p. 149).
Again, we must face up to the implication of all this. How could a man living fourteen hundred years ago have known about interstellar galactic material? Was Muhammad, on whom be peace, well versed in modern astrophysics? Or is the Quran nothing but the Word of God? Allah, the only true God, declares in His book: "The revelation of the scripture is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. Surely We [Allah] have revealed the scripture unto you [Muhammad] with truth; so worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only)" (Quran 39:1-2).

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7- HOW MANY EARTHS ARE THERE?....

If you open the Quran to the first surah, you will notice it begins as follows: "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds." Worlds? Not just one? Yes . . . worlds! There is the physical world, the spiritual world, the world of bacteria, and so forth. That, obviously, is one sense in which we can understand 'worlds'.
Another verse of the Quran, however, makes it clear that there are many earths (see Quran 65:12). Is it possible that there may be other earths out there?
No one expects to find another earth within our solar system. But scientists say it is likely that in our galaxy there are many earths outside the solar system. They say that approximately 50 billion stars in the Milky Way rotate slowly, as does the sun. This characteristic indicates that those stars are surrounded by planets that are their satellites. The Bernard Star, for example, is believed to have at least one planetary companion. (see The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 148). Dr. Bucaille quotes P. Guerin as follows: "All the evidence points to the fact that planetary systems are scattered in profusion all over the universe. The solar system and the earth are not unique" (p. 148-9).
In a recent article published in the Toronto Star, two scientists advanced evidence that there may indeed be many earths waiting to be discovered. The headline read: "Earths may be dime a dozen out there."
The Quran also uses the symbolic plural number 7 to indicate the existence of a plurality of heavens (see Quran 2:29, for example). Dr. Bucaille comments that this is "confirmed by modern science due to the observations experts in astrophysics have made on galactic systems and their very large number" (p. 150).
Once again we find that the Quran says something and scientists later discover it to be true. Can we resist believing in this book of God? God says: "Those who disbelieve in the Reminder when it comes unto them (are guilty), for indeed it is an unassailable Scripture. Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise" (Quran 41 :41-42). ...

Right defender

03-13-2002, 09:36 AM

-8- FORMATION OF IRON! ....

This is no less than a reminder to (all) the worlds. And you shall certainly know the truth of it (all) after a while. (Qurâ€™aan 38:87-88).
Thus, the Qurâ€™aan is a reminder for all of mankind until the Last Hour. It contains information that man discovers in due time. Because this Qurâ€™aan was revealed from Allahâ€™s knowledge and every single verse in it was revealed with Allahâ€™s knowledge, as He Himself said:
Professor Armstrong works at NASA, otherwise known as the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, where he is a well-known scientist there. We met with him and asked a number of questions about Qurâ€™aanic verses dealing with the expertise in Astronomy. We asked him about Iron and how it was formed. He explained how all the elements in the earth were formed. He stated that the scientists have come only recently to discover the relevant facts about that formation process. He said that the energy of the early solar system was not sufficient to produce elemental Iron.
In calculating the energy required to form one atom of iron, it was found to be about four times as much as the energy of the entire solar system. In other words, the entire energy of the earth or the moon or the planet Mars or any other planet is not sufficient to form one new atom of iron, even the energy of the entire solar system is not sufficient for that. That is why Professor Armstrong said that the scientists believe that iron is an extraterrestrial that was sent to earth and not formed therein.

We read to him the Qurâ€™aanic verse saying: And we sent down Iron, in which is Great might, as well as many benefits for mankind (Qurâ€™aan 57-25).

Then we asked him about the sky and whether it had any gaps or rifts in it. He disproved this and replied that what we are talking about is a branch of Astronomy called the "Integrated Cosmos" which we scientists have only come to know recently. For example, if you have a body in outer space which travels a certain distance in any direction and then travel the same distance in a different direction, you will find that the mass weight is the same in all directions. Because this body has its own equilibrium, the pressures from all directions are the same. Without this equilibrium, the whole universe would collapse. I recalled Allahâ€™s verse in the

Qurâ€™aan: " Do they not look at the sky above them? How we have made it and adorned it, and there are no flaws in it?" (Qurâ€™aan 50:6).

Then we talked to Professor Armstrong about the attempts of scientists to reach the edge of the universe, and we asked him whether they were successful in this. He replied that they are fighting an uphill battle to the edge of the universe, we construct more powerful equipment to observe the universe only to discover that the new stars we see are still within our galaxy and that we have not yet reached the edge of the universe. He is aware of the Qurâ€™aanic verse which says: And we adorned the lowest heaven with lamps and we made such (lamps) missiles to drive away satans. (Qurâ€™aan 67:5).
Indeed, all these stars are adornments for the lowest heaven. He says that scientists have not reached the end of the universe. Professor Armstrong added that because of this, they are thinking of stationing more telescopes in outer space so that their observations will not be obstructed by dust and other atmospheric impediments. Vision telescopes using light are unable to travel long distances, so we replaced them with radio operated ones enabling us to see further, but we nevertheless are still within the boundaries. I mentioned to him this verse: So turn thy vision again: Do you see any flaw? Again turn your vision a second time: (your) vision will come back to you dull and discomfited, in a state worn out (Qurâ€™aan 67:3-4).
Each time Professor Armstrong told us some scientific fact, we mentioned to him the relevant verse which he agreed with. Then said to him: â€˜You have seen and discovered for yourself the true nature of modern Astronomy by means of modern equipment, rockets, and space ships, developed by man. You have also seen how the same facts were mentioned by the Qurâ€™aan 14 centuries ago, so what is your opinion about these?
He replied: That is a difficult question which I have been thinking about since our discussions here. I am impressed that how remarkably some of the ancient writings seem to correspond to modern and recent Astronomy.
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9- ORGANIZATION OF THE UNIVERSE.....

What the Quran mentions about the organization of the Universe is important because "these references constitute a new fact of divine Revelation" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 153). The Quran deals with this matter in depth although this is not dealt with in the previous scriptures.
Dr. Maurice Bucaille also points out the important fact that the Quran does not contain "the theories prevalent at the time of the Revelation that deal with the organization of the celestial world" (p. 153). If the Quran was authored by any human being, he or she would have naturally included the ideas prevalent at the time. But many of those ideas were later shown to be inaccurate. How did the author of the Quran know enough to exclude those ideas, unless the author is God himself.
Those who say that Muhammad authored the Quran think that the Arabs were very knowledgeable in the field of Science, and Muhammad was or course one of them. But this explanation is based on the incorrect assumption that the Arabs knew Science before the Quran was revealed. As pointed out by Dr. Bucaille, the fact is that Science in Islamic countries came after the Quran, not before. "In any case", writes Dr. Bucaille, "the scientific knowledge of that great period would not have been sufficient for a human being to write some of the verses to be found in the Quran" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 1 53-1 54)
Modern astronomers are aware that the stars and planets are kept within ranges of precise distances from each other. Had it not been for this fact, collision between them would be inevitable. The author of the Quran was also aware of this. In the Quran we read "the sun and the moon (are subjected) to calculations (Quran 55:5).
Again, we read: "For you (God) subjected the sun and the moon, both diligently pursuing their courses" (Quran 14:33). The phrase 'diligently pursuing their courses' is a translation of the Arabic term daa'ib which here means 'to apply oneself to something with care in a perseverant, invariable manner, in accordance with set habits' (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p.l55). And that indeed is how the sun and moon behave.
Another verse in the Quran says, "the stars are in subjection to His command" (Quran 16:12). Order in the universe is essential for its preservation. God, who subjected them to that order knew about it before any scientist....
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10- WHAT HOLDS UP THE SKY?.....

Today scientists speak of gravitational forces that hold the heavenly bodies apart from each other and prevent them from colliding with each other. How was this to be conveyed to the first readers of the Quran? God tells us in the Quran that He is the One Who raised the sky (Quran 55:7) and that he holds it back from falling on the earth (Quran 22:65). But how exactly does God do this?
If the author of the Quran was a human being, it would have been very easy for the author to copy the answer to this question from the Bible. But today no one will believe that answer.
In the New American Bible, a picture is drawn to show how the authors of the Bible imagined the world to look like. In that picture, the sky "resembles an overturned bowl and is supported by columns" (The New American Bible, St. Joseph's Medium Size Edition, pp. 4-5). The earth in that picture is flat, and is also supported by pillars. After describing the picture at length, the editors of that Bible conclude by calling that idea of the world a "prescientific concept of the universe."
At the time when the Quran was being revealed, anyone could have easily believed this description which was already found in the Bible. It is only in modern times that people would know better. How did the author of the Quran avoid this mistake?
God says in the Quran that He created the heavens "without any pillars that you can see" (Quran 31:10). Again, the Quran says: "God is the One Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see" (Quran 13:2). Dr. Maurice Bucaille comments: "These two verses refute the belief that the vault of the heavens was held up by pillars, the only things preventing the former from crushing the earth" (The Bible, the Quran and Science, p. 154).
To be able to avoid that prescientific error, the author of the Quran must have been either a modern scientist, or God Himself.
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Ezra

03-13-2002, 10:36 AM

Why don't you help your friend answering the questions that he couldn't answer instead of wasting your and our time in this crab?

Ezra

03-13-2002, 08:55 PM

If your book is that genious, why haven't Muslims discovered all these stuff before scientists?!

Crab!

Right defender

03-14-2002, 01:31 AM

hey Ezra

why do you cheat your self ???!

i discuss now a certain subject ....

what're the anserwers do you want to know ???

now, you say this crab

what do you mean by this crab ...

these miracles are certain evidences to the truth of the holy quran

of coures you don't see these subjects in your media

your media is only concentrating on insulting muslims and arabs

and ignore the rest

but this is not the point ...

you say why the scientists of muslims don't discover these facts

can you reply how can people in the 7th years discover ...!

i'll just remind you the islamic civilization after mohammed ...

it was the greatest civilization in the world ... , by the cofess of all the western people

and the islamic scientists did achievements in their ages while Europe was in the drak ages !

but this is not the point too

the point is that you can't justify these miracles
and you're trying to escape from the truth ...

i'll resuem some of the miracles again , they're too many ...

peace be upon you ...

Right defender

03-14-2002, 01:33 AM

10-COMPARING APPLES AND ORANGES...

The sun and the moon are different from each other not only in terms of size, but also in terms of function. The sun generates light, but the moon does not. The moon merely reflects the light coming from the sun. Every high school student today knows this.
A man or woman in the seventh century, however, would not have known about this fine distinction between the sun and the moon. To such a person, the two would appear as a greater light and a lesser light. Such a person would observe that the greater light lights up the day and the lesser light lights up the night. And this indeed is how the sun and the moon were described in previous books.
The Bible, describing the creation, says: "God made two great lights the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night" (Genesis 1: 16). The author of the Qur'an however, was aware that this comparison between the sun and the moon is not adequate. Therefore the Qur'an does not refer to them as being a greater and a lesser light.
The Qur'an says: "God is the One who made the sun a shine and the moon a light" (Qur'an 10:5).
Commenting on this, Dr. Bucaille says: "Whereas the Bible calls the sun and moon 'lights', and merely adds to one the adjective 'greater' and to the other 'lesser', the Qur'an ascribes differences other than that of dimension to each respectively" (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 156).
Similarly, the Qur'an says: "Blessed is the One Who placed the constellations in heaven and placed therein a lamp and a moon giving light" (Qur'an 25:61).
Here again, the difference between the sun and the moon is noted. The sun is called a lamp, and the moon is called an object giving light.
Again in the Qur'an God says that He "made the moon a light" and "made the sun a lamp" (Qur'an 71:15-16).
Furthermore, God calls the sun a "blazing lamp" (Qur'an 78:12-13). This term which is used for the sun is never used for the moon in the Qur'an.
In all of these verses, God expresses the notion that the sun and the moon are "not absolutely identical lights" (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 156).
Dr. Bucaille draws his conclusions from what he found in the Qur'an about the sun and the moon: "What is interesting to note here is the sober quality of the comparisons, and the absence in the text of the Qur'an of any elements of comparison that might have prevailed at the time and which in our day would appear as phantasmagorial" (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p 157). In short, "There is nothing in the text of the Qur'an that contradicts what we know today about these two celestial bodies." (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 157).

----------
12 - THE SEQUENCE OF DAY AND NIGHT.....

At a time when it was held that the Earth was the centre of the world and that the Sun moved in relation to it, how could any one have failed to refer to the Sun's movement when talking of the sequence of night and day? This is not however referred to in the Qur'an and the subject is dealt with as follows:
sura 7, verse 54: "(God) covers the day with the night which is in haste to follow it..."
sura 36, verse 37: "And a sign for them (human beings) is the night. We strip it of the day and they are in darkness."
sura 31, verse 29: "Hast thou not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night." sura 39, verse 5: "...He coils the night upon the day and He coils the day upon the night."
The first verse cited requires no comment. The second simply provides an image. It is mainly the third and fourth verses quoted above that provide interesting material on the process of interpenetration and especially of winding the night upon the day and the day upon the night. (sura 39, verse 5) 'To coil' or 'to wind' seems, as in the French translation by R. Blachere, to be the best way of translating the Arabic verb kawwara. The original meaning of the verb is to 'coil' a turban around the head; the notion of coiling is preserved in all the other senses of the word. What actually happens however in space? American astronauts have seen and photographed what happens from their spaceships, especially at a great distance from Earth, e.g. from the Moon. They saw how the Sun permanently lights up (except in the case of an eclipse) the half of the Earth's surface that is facing it, while the other half of the globe is in darkness. The Earth turns on its own axis and the lighting remains the same, so that an area in the form of a half-sphere makes one revolution around the Earth in twenty-four hours while the other half-sphere, that has remained in darkness, makes the same revolution in the same time. This perpetual rotation of night and day is quite clearly described in the Qur'an. It is easy for the human understanding to grasp this notion nowadays because we have the idea of the Sun's (relative) immobility and the Earth's rotation. This process of perpetual coiling, including the interpenetration of one sector by another is expressed in the Qur'an just as if the concept of the Earth's roundness had already been conceived at the time-which was obviously not the case. Further to the above reflections on the sequence of day and night, one must also mention, with a quotation of some verses from the Qur'an, the idea that there is more than one Orient and one Occident. This is of purely descriptive interest because these phenomena rely on the most commonplace observations. The idea is mentioned here with the aim of reproducing as faithfully as possible all that the Qur'an has to say on this subject.
The following are examples:
--In sura 70 verse 40, the expression 'Lord of Orients and Occidents'.
--In sura 55, verse 17, the expression 'Lord of the two Orients and the two Occidents'.
--In sura 43, verse 38, a reference to the 'distance between the two Orients', an image intended to express the immense size of the distance separating the two points.
Anyone who carefully watches the sunrise and sunset knows that the Sun rises at different point of the Orient and sets at different points of the Occident, according to season. Bearings taken on each of the horizons define the extreme limits that mark the two Orients and Occidents, and between these there are points marked off throughout the year. The phenomenon described here is rather commonplace, but what mainly deserves attention in this chapter are the other topics dealt with, where the description of astronomical phenomena referred to in the Qur'an is in keeping with modern data....

McSceptic

03-14-2002, 03:51 AM

Doesn't the Koran also teach the existence of djinn?

Ezra

03-14-2002, 06:50 AM

Well Mr. Right Defender, I still can't understand why haven't small Muslim kids like you discovered these "AMAZING SCIENTIFIC" discoveries before western scientists since it's written in a book in their homes?

Do you want to know why? Because it's ALL CRAB!

You try to fit whatever garbage written to scientific discoveries!!

I remember very well a decade ago when scientists proved that the universe has a constant volume due to the formation of anti-matter, ALL "funny" MUSLIMS (like you) jump up cheering saying "HURRAY! THIS WRITTEN IN KORAN!".. And you mentioned some of these crabby verses! Then couple of years ago when scientists said they were wrong and they admitted that the universe is expanding, you cheered up again saying "HURRAY! WE HAVE THIS ALSO WRITTEN IN KORAN" !!!!!

Mr. Right Defender, don't cheat yourself. Don't be afraid of using your mind. I'm positively sure that you are not convinced with Islam, but your ego just forbid you to admit it. BE BRAVE AND SAY NO to this crab.

Right defender

03-14-2002, 07:28 AM

ezra ,,,,

you're 100% Crazy ...

and you have insulted my digniy ...

and this was my only condition to resume in this forum ...

i'm so sad for your words ...

you don't respect the others ideas and principles ..

and this is shame to discuss such a person like you ..

i want to tell you some thing

i'm 100% onvinced with islam

i'll go in peace after resuming this subject ...

peace be with you ....

Ezra

03-14-2002, 08:44 AM

HAHAHAHAHA!

I LOVE MUSLIMS WHEN THEY GET STUCK!!

fair

03-14-2002, 09:04 AM

Right defender
bravo
Allah bless you
don't worry about Ezra .. he is christian extremist
and Islam enemy
beside he has long tongue and ignorancy
using abused tongue when he fails to convince
once more bravo
regard's

victot

03-14-2002, 01:38 PM

well, i think it's neat that people truly believe in the koran, bible, torah...
i don't agree with the radical muslim fundamentalism going on these days...
but there's nothing said here that should cause people to villafy the koran or islam.
i don't see why people in this forum are being such jerks. if people who were only jewish and pro-israeli spoke here, it would be a pretty boring forum.

cerulean

03-14-2002, 02:46 PM

A great Muslim thinker is Avicenna. I'd suggest becoming familiar with his writings. Interesting synthesis and philosophy. He helped keep learning alive in the Arab world during the Dark Ages in Europe.

Ezra has a good point. Anyone can find justification afterwards for scientific discoveries. Making the discoveries in the first place is the important thing.

Also, some scholars see many numerical coincidences and marvels in Jewish Biblical texts. Look at

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684849739/qid=1016152701/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_7_1/103-1064894-5301450

Of course, it's since been discovered that the same sort of coincidences can be found with careful analysis of Tolstoy's War and Peace or most likely any manuscript of sufficient size. Humans probably cannot help but be superstitious, and I can't say there is nothing to any of it, but rigorous examination is always a good idea.

Ezra

03-14-2002, 04:02 PM

victot

I certainly agree with you that having some Muslims in their forum would add some excitement. On the matter of fact I'll be so sad if they left. But if you carefully examined all their posts, you will find the sequence is very constant:
1. They mention something regarding their Koran.
2. I (or anyone else) reply FROM THEIR KORAN.
3. They get stuck in answering and leave for a while.
4. Return back after a while when the original questions are forgotton!

So funny !

I don't villafy the koran or islam. I simply mention some verses from it and ask for a clarifcation! The funny thing is these Muslims CONSIDER THESE VERSES (FROM THEIR KORAN) AS AN INSULTING!!! So strange!

Anyway, back to the original topic..

Mr. Fair you cheered like a baby to your friend but didn't dare to help him answering the questions I asked (or even ask him help on the questions I asked you before!).. No problem! I'll ask them again (Believe me I'm positively sure you will find some execuse not to answer them!)..

I still can't understand why haven't small Muslim kids like you discovered these "AMAZING SCIENTIFIC" discoveries before western scientists since it's written in a book in their homes?

I remember very well a decade ago when scientists proved that the universe has a constant volume due to the formation of anti-matter, ALL "funny" MUSLIMS (like you) jump up cheering saying "HURRAY! THIS WRITTEN IN KORAN!".. And you mentioned some of these crabby verses! Then couple of years ago when scientists said they were wrong and they admitted that the universe is expanding, you cheered up again saying "HURRAY! WE HAVE THIS ALSO WRITTEN IN KORAN" !!!!!

Ezra

03-14-2002, 04:06 PM

Right defender,

My cousin is stuck in his PhD trying to find the physical origin of the Gilbert damping phenomena in exchange-coupled ferromagnetic materials.

Can you get him the answer from your Koran?

Right defender

03-15-2002, 08:02 AM

Mr victot :

i don't think muslims will stay in this forum alot ...

i my self decided to leave this forum so soon

i can't live in such a forum with this malignity to muslims and arabs

i thought when i came i 'll find people ready to discuss in rational way

but ...

Mr EZra :

we're not escaping from your questions
you can gather all your questions and write it and will find you the answer ..
the main problem is english , i suffered to translate what you say , in many times i don't understand the meaning , i had to search the web to find you the miracles of koran in english and a true one as many sites try to false the sentences and the meaning ...

be sure if you could speak arabic well , i would write you all the answers you need

Mr ezra , you don't know any thing about koran , coz you always think with koran with your dark side of your mind ( if you have a mind ) , you always misunderstand the koran verses...

it's you who ignore our questions , i said i wrote these miracles in koran to prove , but you ignore to reply on one of its miracles , you should reply on every sentence written , you say that koran says that the universe's volume is constant , give me your evidences ...

coz you don't understand the koran , i'll tell you some notes ( it seems you're a failed one in studing koran )

koran is not a scientific book to find all the scientific laws in it ,,

read this agian
"
Soon will we show them our signs in the regions (of the earth), and in their own souls,
until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth. " (41:53)

it means that allah wants to prove with some evidences the truth of mohammed's message , and if you know the koran was a challenge to all arabs ....

and mohammed said that what you can't understand nowadays may be unsderstood by people in the next time ....

that's why you find scienific miracles in koran , the more the human civilization in progress , the more people find miracles in future ...

let's imagine islam in the worst religion in the world , and it's urging muslims to terrorism ,and mohammed is a lair , and he him self wrote the koran ,,,

can you justify how can this man mention these amazing facts in this book , put in your conserderation that he couldnot write or read , and all arabs these days were illiterates ...

of course this man is a messenger of allah ,...

by the way , many people changed to islam when they read these facts ( most of them are scientists ) and they knew that by chance ( of course your media hide ignore these facts )

and don't be in hurry , there're many miracles i didn't write it , and you'll have to justify all these facts due to your thoughts ....

i knew it's very hard to you coz facts are facts and you can't change facts ....

Mr Fair ,

it's great to find people like you here , i'll resume writting this sunject ,,,,

by the way i sent you a private message ,
check your inbox now ...

thanks all , and peace be upon you ....

Right defender

03-15-2002, 08:06 AM

THE SUN & MOON AND THEIR ORBITS

Today we know that the Moon revolves around the earth in approximately 29.5 days. The sun also revolves in its own orbit. To understand the sun's orbit, Dr. Bucaille says that the position of the sun in our galaxy must be considered, and we must therefore call on modern scientific ideas (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 162).
Our galaxy, the milky way galaxy, includes one hundred billion stars situated in such a formation that the galaxy is shaped like a disc. This disc turns around its center like a gramophone record. Now, it is obvious that when a gramophone record turns, any point on the disc would move around and come back to its original position. Similarly, every star in the galaxy moves as the galaxy rotates on its axis. Therefore the stars that are away from the center of the galaxy orbit around the axis. The sun is one of those stars.
Dr. Bucaille explains that modern science has worked out the details of the sun's orbit as follows: "To complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and the sun take roughly 250 million years. The sun travels roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this" (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 162).
After describing this, Dr. Bucaille comments: "The above is the orbital movement of the sun that was already referred to in the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago." (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 162)
And yet this is a new finding. As Dr. Bucaille says, the knowledge of the sun's orbit is an acquisition of modern astronomy (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 162).
Two verses in the Qur'an refer to the orbits of the sun and moon. After mentioning the sun and the moon, God says: "Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40). How did the author of the Qur'an know of this? Even after the Qur'an was revealed, early commentators could not conceive of the orbits of the sun and moon. The tenth century commentator Tabari could not explain this so he said, "It is our duty to keep silent when we do not know" (XVII, 15 quoted in The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 161).
Dr. Bucaille comments: "This shows just how incapable men were of understanding this concept of the sun's and moon's orbit." (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 161).
From this it is clear that if the Qur'an was here expressing an idea already known to the people, the commentators would have easily understood it. But this, as Dr. Bucaille explains was "a new concept that was not to be explained until centuries later" (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 161)
This confirms what God said to his prophet, on whom be peace: "This is of the tidings of the Unseen which we inspire in you (Muhammad). Neither you nor your people knew it before this" (Qur'an 11:49).

THE SUN & MOON MOVE WITH THEIR OWN MOTION

The Qur'an makes the following statement about the sun and the moon: "Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion" (Qur'an 21:33; 36:40).
Why did the Qur'an say that the sun and moon move with their own motion? And, if that is true, where did the author of the Qur'an get this information?
The fact is that the sun and moon rotate on their axes and are in part animated by this rotating motion. The phrase "travelling with its own motion" in the verses quoted above is a translation of the Arabic verb 'yasbahoon'. This could also be translated 'they swim.' In that case, the verse would read that the sun and the moon, "Each swim in its own orbit." Those who translate the verse this way explain that the term swim refers to movement with one's own internally generated force. Furthermore the movement of a swimmer is graceful, measured, and smooth. This is a very fitting description for the movement of the stars and planets including the sun and the moon.
After describing the scientific data concerning the rotation of the sun and the moon, Dr. Bucaille says: "These motions of the two celestial bodies are confirmed by the data of modern science, and it is inconceivable that a man living in the seventh century A.D.... could have imagined them" (The Bible, the Qur'an and Science, p. 163).
It is also amazing that the Qur'an uses a different term for the movement of the clouds and the mountains (see Qur'an 27:88). Obviously, the clouds and mountains are driven by external forces. The cloud is driven by the wind and the mountains move with the rotation of the earth. The sun and moon, however, move with their own motion, and therefore the Qur'an uses a peculiar term "they swim" to refer to their smooth, graceful, self-propelled movement.
How did the author of the Qur'an know enough to make this choice of words that will reflect a modern scientific truth? The Qur'an is no less than a revelation from God.
sura 36, verse 40:
"The sun must not catch up the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion."
Here an essential fact is clearly stated: the existence of the Sun's and Moon's orbits, plus a reference is made to the traveling
of these bodies in space with their own motion. A negative fact also emerges from a reading of these verses: it is shown that the Sun moves in an orbit, but no indication is given as to what this orbit might be in relation to the Earth. At the time of the Qur'anic Revelation, it was thought that the Sun moved while the Earth stood still. This was the system of
geocentrism that had held away since the time of Ptolemy, Sec-ond century B.C., and was to continue to do so until Copernicus in the Sixteenth century A.D. Although people supported this concept at the time of Muhammad, it does not appear anywhere
in the Qur'an, either here or elsewhere.

1. The Moon's Orbit.
Today, the concept is widely spread that the Moon is a satellite of the Earth around which it revolves in periods of twenty-nine days. A correction must however be made to the absolutely circular form of its orbit, since modern astronomy ascribes a certain eccentricity to this, so that the distance between the Earth and the Moon (240,000 miles) is only the average distance.
We have seen above how the Qur'an underlined the usefulness of observing the Moon's movements in calculating time (sura 10, verse 5, quoted at the beginning of this chapter.) This system has often been criticized for being archaic, im- practical and unscientific in comparison to our system based on the Earth's rotation around the Sun, expressed today in the Julian calendar.
This criticism calls for the following two remarks:
a) Nearly fourteen centuries ago, the Qur'an was directed at the inhabitants of the Arabian Peninsula who were used to the lunar calculation of time. It was advisable to address them in the only language they could understand and not to upset the habits they had of locating spatial and temporal reference-marks which were nevertheless quite efficient. It is known how well-versed men living in the desert are in the observation of the sky; they navigated according to the stars and told the time according to the phases of the Moon. Those were the simplest and most reliable means available to them.
b) Apart from the specialists in this, most people are unaware of the perfect correlation between the Julian and the lunar calendar: 235 lunar months correspond exactly to 19 Julian years of 365.25 days. Then length of our year of 365 days is not perfect because it has to be rectified every four years (with a leap year): With the lunar calendar, the same phenomena occur every 19 years (Julian). This is the Metonic cycle, named after the Greek astronomer Meton, who discovered this exact correlation between solar and lunar time in the Fifth century B.C.

2. The Sun.
It is more difficult to conceive of the Sun's orbit because we are so used to seeing our solar system organized around it. To understand the verse from the Qur'an, the position of the Sun in our galaxy must be considered. and we must therefore call on modern scientific ideas. Our galaxy includes a very large number of stars spaced so as to form a disc that is denser at the centre than at the rim. The Sun occupies a position in it which is far removed from the centre of the disc. The galaxy revolves on its own axis which is its centre with the result that the Sun revolves around the same centre in a circular orbit. Modern astronomy has worked out the details of this. In 1917, Shapley estimated the distance between the Sun and the centre of our galaxy at 10 kiloparsecs i.e., in miles, circa the figure 2 followed by 17 zeros. To complete one revolution on its own axis, the galaxy and Sun take roughly 250 million years. The Sun travels at roughly 150 miles per second in the completion of this. The above is the orbital movement of the Sun that was already referred to by the Qur'an fourteen centuries ago. The demonstration of the existence and details of this is one of the achievements of modern astronomy.

Right defender

03-15-2002, 08:13 AM

resume ...

--The Moon completes its rotating motion on its own axis at the same time as it revolves around the Earth, i.e. 29.5 days (approx.), so that it always has the same side facing us. --The Sun takes roughly 25 days to revolve on its own axis.
There are certain differences in its rotation at its equator and poles, (we shall not go into them here) but as a whole, the Sun is animated by a rotating motion. It appears therefore that a verbal nuance in the Qur'an refers to the Sun and Moon's own motion. These motions of the two celestial bodies are confirmed by the data of modern science, and it is inconceivable that a man living in the Seventh century A.D.--however knowledgeable he might have been in his day (and this was certainly not true in Muhammad's case)--could have imagined them. This view is sometimes contested by examples from great thinkers of antiquity who indisputably predicted certain data that modern science has verified. They could hardly have relied on scientific deduction however; their method of procedure was more one of philosophical reasoning. Thus the case of the Pythagoreans is often advanced. In the Sixth century B.C., they defended the theory of the rotation of the Earth on its own axis and the movement of the planets around the Sun. This theory was to be confirmed by modern sciece. By comparing it with the case of the Pythagoreans,it easy to put forward the hypothesis of Muhammad as being a brilliant thinker, who was supposed to have imagined all on his on his own what modern science was to discover centuries later. In so doing however, people quite simply forget to mention the other aspect of what these geniuses of philosophical reasoning produced, i.e. the colossal blunders that litter their work. it must be remembered for example, that the pythagoreans also defended the theory whereby the Sun was fixed in space; they made it the centre of the world and only conceived of a celestial order that was centered on it. It is quite common in the works of the great philosophers of antiquity to find a mixture of valid and invalid ideas about the Universe. The brilliance of these human works comes from the advanced ideas they contain, but they should not make us over look the mistaken concepts which have also been left to us. From a strictly scientific point of view, this is what distinguished them from the Qur'an. In the latter, many subjects are referred to that have a bearing on modern knowledge without one of them containing a statement that contradicts what has been established by present-day science

Ezra

03-15-2002, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Right defender
Mr Fair ,

it's great to find people like you here

Woooow.. I thought you two guys knew each other from before and than decided together to come here!

Hmmmmmm..... What do you think of that?

Ezra

03-15-2002, 09:35 AM

Right defender

People are waiting for your reply about the universe expansion!

Ezra

03-15-2002, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Right defender
Mr ezra , you don't know any thing about koran

can you justify how can this man mention these amazing facts in this book , put in your conserderation that he couldnot write or read , and all arabs these days were illiterates ...

Me? Don't know anything about Koran? hahahahha.. I doubt that!

Amazing facts??? Get me any couple of paragraphs written by some 10-yr-old boy and I can interpolate it to your "AMAZING FACTS"! hahahahah

Like for example:

"I love the moon when it's full round"..

WWWWOOOOWWW.. AMAZING FACT! The moon can be full round sometimes and not full round in another times!

"The sun is so shining and the moon is so bright"..

AHHHHH.. ANOTHER AMAZING FACT! The sun produces light but the moon reflects it!!

I can stay all night long giving you examples of your crabby verses!

Want more?

L@mplighterM

03-15-2002, 09:59 AM

Right Defender why do u post this nonsence?

The detailed prediction of eclipses requires complex calculations of the celestial mechanics of the Moon's orbit, but amazingly good approximate solutions to the problem of predicting eclipses were known to the ancient Greeks and Babylonians.

They discovered that the key to predicting eclipses, whether solar or lunar, is the Saros cycle, 223 ordinary lunar months. This periodicity was discovered by the Babylonians. It is 18 solar calendar years plus 10-1/3 days. After that period of time, starting with a total eclipse at new Moon (after 6585.3211 days, to be more exact), the phase of the Moon is again exactly new and the Moon is eagain almost exactly lined up with the Sun, so another eclipse takes place, though it will be seen from a different place on Earth. Simply having a new Moon isn't enough because the Moon's orbit is inclined. For an eclipse to take place the alignment must be very close.

That was around 150BC

I'd say Mohamed plagerized their works.

Another thing is that there's so many mistakes in your above posts that I'm not even going to bother pointing them out.

Ezra

03-15-2002, 10:06 AM

L@mplighterM,

Don't bother yourself! As you just saw, I just proved from the writings of a 10-yrs-old boy that the Moon orbits around the earth and that it's the Nuclear reactions that make the sun generates light energy whereas the moon is a passive object that only reflects light.

Right defender

03-16-2002, 01:00 AM

poor ezra

your position is so bad

and you're saying nosense words ..

what the boy says is very normal
but ...

can the boy say that the universe is expanding and he knows nothing about the universe

can he says that the moon has been splitted when he points to the moon and after 1400 years the people of our age prove that

can he say the stages of creating a man in his mothers womb in this accurate way ...

i said many miracles and i still have many too

all i want from you concentrate on every miracle i said and say your opinion and don't ignore any ...

all i have written were on universe .

now i'll talk about mountains

let's see the wonders
...

by the way mr ezra

i never knew fair but now

hahahahah

you still need to see your light side if your mind ( if you have ..)

peace be upon you

Right defender

03-16-2002, 01:03 AM

Professor Siaveda , one of the best known marine geologists from Japan. He is also one of the most famous scientists in the world. When he was asked about mountains and whether they were firmly rooted in the earth. He replied and said:

The fundamental difference between continental mountains and the oceanic mountains lies in its material. Continental mountains are made essentially by sediments, whereas the oceanic mountains are made of volcanic rocks. Continental mountains were formed by compressional forces, whereas the oceanic mountains were formed by extensional forces. But the common denominator on both mountains are that they have roots to support the mountains. In the case of continental mountains, light-low density material from the mountain is extended down into the earth as a root. In the case of oceanic mountains, there is aso light material supporting the mountain as a root, but in the case of oceanic mountain this material is not light because the composition is light, but it is hot, therefore expanded somewhat. But from the viewpoint of densities, they are doing the same job of supporting the mountains. Therefore, the function of the roots are to support the mountains according to the law of Archimedes.

Professor Siaveda described the shape of all mountains whether they are on land or in the sea as being in the shape of a wedge. Could anyone during the time of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu â€˜alaihi wa sallam) have known of the shape of these mountains? Could anyone imagine that the solid massive mountain that he sees before him actually extends deep into the earth and has a root as scientists assure. A large number of geography books when discussing mountains, only describe that part which is on the surface of the earth. This is because they are not written by specialists in geology, but modern science informs us about it and Allah says in the Qurâ€™aan:

And the mountains as pegs. (Qurâ€™aan 78:7).

We asked Professor Sievada whether the mountains have a function in establishing the crust of the earth. He said that this has not yet been discovered and established by scientists. In view of the reply we searched and inquired about this and we found out that many geologists gave the same reply, except for a few. Among those few are the authors of thisbook, entitled This book is considered as a basic reference text in many universities throughout the world. One of the authors of this book is Frank Press. He is currently the President of the Academy of Sciences in USA. Previously, he was science advisor to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. What does he say in his book? He illustrates the mountains in a wedge like shape where the mountain itself is but a small part of the whole whose root is deeply entrenched in the ground. Dr. Press writes on the functions of "The Earth". the mountains and states that they play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. This is exactly how the Qurâ€™aan described mountains 14 centuries ago.
Allah said: And the mountains Has He firmly fixed. (Qurâ€™aan 79:32). And He said: And the mountains as pegs. (Qurâ€™aan 78:7). And said: And he has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you. (Qurâ€™aan 16:15).
But who could have informed Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu â€˜alaihi wa sallam) about this? We asked Professor Siaveda this question: â€˜What is your opinion on what you have seen in the Qurâ€™aan and the Sunnah with regard to the secrets of the Universe, which scientists only discovered now?â€™ His answer was: I think it seems to me very, very mysterious, almost unbelievable. I really think if what you have said is true, the book is really a very remarkable book, I agree. Yes, what can scientists say. They cannot attribute the knowledge revealed to Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu â€˜alaihi wa sallam) by Allah and contained in the Qurâ€™aan to human beings or to any scientific authority in our times, because all scientists were unaware of all these secrets. Moreover, all the humanity could not have any explanation but to attribute that knowledge to some extra-terrestrial force. Yes, it is a revelation from Allah which he sent to his servant, the unlettered Prophet Muhammad, whom Allah has made an everlasting sign escorting humanity until the Last Hour.

L@mplighterM

03-16-2002, 08:08 AM

I think you're a bit confused about the meaning of "miracle".

Why don't you start selling land and water mountain seeds. I wouldn't mind having a small mountain in my backyard.

Ezra

03-16-2002, 08:46 AM

I'm really feeling so pitty for you Mr. Right defender along with your junk..

Hmmmmmm.... You didn't know Mr. Fair before... Hmmmmm... What can I say! A typical Muslim Liar!

ibrodsky

03-16-2002, 01:27 PM

Claims that Islam anticipated modern scientific discoveries are delusional.

This reminds me of ancient oracles. They succeeded at making "prophetic" statements by mastering the art of making vague and ambiguous statements.

The proof is in the pudding: where is the evidence of great scientific developments, either theoretical or practical, coming from Islamic societies?

More important, why do Islamic societies reject many of the political developments that have made scientific discoveries and advances possible?

Separation of church and state, complete freedom of faith, capitalism, lending/investment, and so forth are all necessary to such discoveries/advances.

As best I can tell, Islamic states have actually impeded scientific exploration and even basic economic development for their masses.

And why do oil-rich Islamic states need Western experts to build and manage their oil industries?

Ezra

03-17-2002, 09:24 AM

BELIEVE IT OR NOT!

Till I left Egypt couple of months ago, they were still debating whether going to the moon is "Halal" (ok with islam) or "Haram" (forbidden by Islam) !!!!

More very interesting topics that they are still debating:

1) Is entering the bathroom with your left leg is Halal or Haram
2) Are contact lenses are Halal or Haram
3) Is chess Halal or Haram

â€¦ and many many more funny issues!

victot

03-17-2002, 05:35 PM

Till I left Egypt couple of months ago, they were still debating whether going to the moon is "Halal" (ok with islam) or "Haram" (forbidden by Islam) !!!!

More very interesting topics that they are still debating: 1) Is entering the bathroom with your left leg is Halal or Haram
2) Are contact lenses are Halal or Haram
3) Is chess Halal or Haram

to be fair, religious judaism and religious christianity debate that kinda thing about as much

NewsGuy

03-17-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by victot
to be fair, religious judaism and religious christianity debate that kinda thing about as much

Not to that extent, I don't think.

Ezra

03-17-2002, 06:20 PM

Victot,

I'm considered an extremist Christian. I'm telling you, such a stupid nonsense is never subject to debate!

If you are considering yourself "fair", then would you please point to me ANYWHERE about anything that says (or even suggests) that Christians ever discussed whether going to the moon is Halal or Haram ??!!!!!!!!!

victot

03-17-2002, 07:30 PM

well, i guess that kinda stuff is not quite as debated in christianity...
i think the theology of christiniaty is based more on believing in jesus, and observing the basic commandments.

but judaism, c'mon... the talmud? it's a billion pages long.

here, i got this exerpt from the site www.askmoses.com

Question:
My wife says there is some halachic problem of nails (as in finger and toes) on the floor. Do you know anything about this?

Answer:
Mrs. Shaffer: Welcome. I'll be with you in a moment...

Robert: Hello

Mrs. Shaffer: hello, Robert, how can I help you?:)

Robert: I hope this doesnâ€™t sound too weirdâ€¦my wife says there is some halachic problem of nails (as in finger and toes) on the floor. Do you know anything about this?

Mrs. Shaffer: Wellâ€¦ generally one is careful about discarding nails :) There is a discussion in the Talmud (Nidah 17a) about the nails being potentially harmful to an unborn babyâ€¦ were a pregnant woman to step on discarded nails, it might bring harm to her baby. The Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) requires that we either burn or bury our nails. Which means, of course, that they can be flushed down a drain.

Robert: So, this is common practice then for someone observant?

Mrs. Shaffer: Yes.

Robert: Ok. Thank you very much.

in judaism, there is a lot of that kinda stuff, there are a lot of rules that someone who is religious needs to follow, which aren't directly related to what one would think is "morality"

heh, i think it says somewhere in the christian bible that says we're technically not allowed to go the bathroom; it was even quoted in the simpsons once...
but i don't think that christianity is quite as concerned with semantics? is that the word? as judaism and islam are.

victot

03-17-2002, 08:17 PM

ummmmm l@mplighter...
why don't you?!?!

Ezra

03-17-2002, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by victot
heh, i think it says somewhere in the christian bible that says we're technically not allowed to go the bathroom; it was even quoted in the simpsons once...

Nonsense of course.

Victot, please either mention specific facts/verses/proofs/statements, or let's stop this nonsense.

At least for Christianity there isn't any of this "stupidity". And I can tell you VERY POSITIVELY that there aren't any such "nonsense" in the Taorah as well.

Right defender

03-18-2002, 03:59 AM

mr ezra

your face shows now the real side of you ...

first i didn't know fair until now , so i'm not a lair but you'r lair not me !!!!

second you're a a lair , coz you're lying and cheating all the poeple here

i live in egypt , i know arabic more than you know ( if you know )
i know islam and islam rules more than you know

know egyptian people more than you know ...

so you're a lair , and i told you before , you never knew islam

coz ....

1- going to moon is not porbidden and an araian Ameer " Bin Talal" went to the moon before ....

so you're a lair ..

2- you can left the pathroom with any leg ( why forbidden if your mind ) but it's " sunna " coz our prophet mohammed used to left it with the right one ..

so you're a lair ..

3- contact lenses are not forbidden ( no one forbids it ! )

i don't know where did you get these nosense words ...

so you're a lair ..

4- of course chess is not forbidden , you're the first one to forbit it !

so you're a lair ..

and you don't know islam as i said ,,,

third :

christianity and torah don't have such miracles , i knew that

but there're many miracles in christianity and judaism known by muslims only ...

coz we have the right story and it's mentioned in quran ....

and every religion from allah have miracles ...

but coz your religion is written by people , and it was corrupted in the translation , and of course changed

challenge : can any christian in the world have the real copy of the bible in its real language ???

of course not ...

when i tried to read the bible i found too many bibles
the bible of john ...
the bible of metta ..

the bible of ... and of ..

i asked for the bible of the prophet jesus ..., i didn't find !

...

that's all ..

my days is this forum became a few , and that's due to the existence of some extrimist elements like Ezra , and i hate to discuss with such a way ..

peace be upon you all

victot

03-18-2002, 06:33 AM

Mark 7:14-23

Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him `unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him `unclean'." After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him `unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean'. For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean'" ( NIV).

i guess that is what it is based on.

Ezra

03-18-2002, 07:31 AM

HAHAHAHAHA..

So funny Victot!

Ezra

03-18-2002, 07:41 AM

mr ezra

your face shows now the real side of you ...

first i didn't know fair until now , so i'm not a lair but you'r lair not me !!!!

hmmmmmâ€¦ So, you and fair don't write together in this Egyptian discussion forum.
Does Ragaâ€¦.. and Passeâ€¦. Ring a bell? Ha liar?

second you're a a lair , coz you're lying and cheating all the poeple here

i live in egypt , i know arabic more than you know ( if you know )
i know islam and islam rules more than you know

know egyptian people more than you know ...

so you're a lair , and i told you before , you never knew islam

Me don't know Egypt and Islam? Hmmmm.. I don't think so! You failed in replying to ANY of my evidence to the crab in your Koran!

coz ....

1- going to moon is not porbidden and an araian Ameer " Bin Talal" went to the moon before ....

so you're a lair ..

What a stupid argument! Having some Muslim went to the moon doesn't mean it's Halal. I know many Muslims that kill, does this mean it's Halal?

2- you can left the pathroom with any leg ( why forbidden if your mind ) but it's " sunna " coz our prophet mohammed used to left it with the right one ..

so you're a lair ..

And some people argues that this issue in "sunna" is false and debating the correctness of this issue. Thanks for proving my point!

3- contact lenses are not forbidden ( no one forbids it ! )

i don't know where did you get these nosense words ...

so you're a lair ..

Oh yeh? Go and check www.islamway.com sweet heart! Thanks again for showing that it's YOU who are liar! Doesn't it mimic the creation of God?!

4- of course chess is not forbidden , you're the first one to forbit it !

so you're a lair ..

Why going too far.. Go again and check islamway.com then check the Egyptian forum that you write in! So strange that it was YOU who agreed with this debate then came back here and say it's not forbidden! Do you want me to remind you with your evidences and words? Aren't chess are "Asnam" (statues) which is forbidden by Islam? Haven't YOU argued before that chess mimics God's life? Ha liar?

and you don't know islam as i said ,,,

third :

christianity and torah don't have such miracles , i knew that

No no.. You got it wrong. I said Christianity and Torah doesnâ€™t have this crab and stupidity of Islam and Koran

challenge : can any christian in the world have the real copy of the bible in its real language ???

Hahahaha.. I love your ignorance. Go to Italy, Vatican, or France and you will find the original scripts of the bible you idiot! Oooppss.. Sorry I ment ignorant! Ahhhh.. Why going so far again? Go to "Deir el-Muharraq" sweetie!

when i tried to read the bible i found too many bibles
the bible of john ...
the bible of metta ..

the bible of ... and of ..

i asked for the bible of the prophet jesus ..., i didn't find !

Hahahahaha.. Right defender, I REALLY LOVE THE DISCUSSION WITH YOU! You make it soooooo easy for everyone to know how ignorant you are by such naÃ¯ve questions! Sweet heart a part of your ignorance is that you don't know the difference between the Bible and a Gospel! The Holy Bible consists of the old testimony and the new testimony. The new testimony consists of the four gospels (Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John), the Acts, the Letters, and the Revelation. See how idiot you are?

that's all ..

my days is this forum became a few , and that's due to the existence of some extrimist elements like Ezra , and i hate to discuss with such a way ..

Hahahaha.. Because of me? All of that because I revealed the truth of Islam and Koran FROM YOU KORAN itself? Remember that I only post Koran verses! You considered that offending! Hahahah..
Please don't leave! I really enjoy revealing the truth of Islam through the discussion with you! Please please please!
Ahhhhhh.. I have a good idea! Many "bad" people here are throwing doubts on Muhammad's sexual life.. Can you please tell us more about that? Thanks!
Cheers!

Right defender

03-18-2002, 03:34 PM

hahahha

you always prove your stupidity mr ezra

>>

these questions in islam way is common questions but not depating as you say mr fool ....

second : the sunna is favorable in our religion but it's not obligation to any one

do as you like ..

third : yeah i'm talking place in egyptian forum and i knew this froum from it

but my name here is not there

and fair's name here is not there

and i don't know if fair in the egyptian forum or not , i only guess

so you're lair ....

the forth ...

the real copies of the bible is not real and many proofs assures my points

there're not any real bible on the earth now, it had been changed by people ...

fifth .

tell me , which things did you reveal about islam ????

nothing , you say nothing

you didn't ever use evidences to prove your words

coz it's flase

the last ...

i will not leave this forum because of you ...

but because of your stupidty ...

and i don't like to argue with a stupid one ...

that's all

pbuu

Ezra

03-18-2002, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Right defender
third : yeah i'm talking place in egyptian forum and i knew this froum from it

but my name here is not there

and fair's name here is not there

and i don't know if fair in the egyptian forum or not , i only guess

so you're lair ....

the forth ...

the real copies of the bible is not real and many proofs assures my points

there're not any real bible on the earth now, it had been changed by people ...

fifth .

tell me , which things did you reveal about islam ????

nothing , you say nothing

you didn't ever use evidences to prove your words

coz it's flase

the last ...

i will not leave this forum because of you ...

but because of your stupidty ...

and i don't like to argue with a stupid one ...

that's all

pbuu

Ahhhhhâ€¦ Right defender pleasssssssssse don't show more stupidity!

I know your names here and in the Egyptian forum aren't the same smart guy! Are you idiot? When I said "does Ragaâ€¦ and Passeâ€¦.ring a bell" did you see by any mean that the names in the Egyptian forum matches your names here? Are you blind or idiot? Does "Right defender" starts with Raga or Passe ignorant? What a team of Liars!

Then you said: [the real copies of the bible is not real and many proofs assures my points there're not any real bible on the earth now, it had been changed by people ...]

Woooooow! Are you smarter than Carbon 14 that stated the ages of these versions? Why don't you show us some of these proves?

Don't you see that I revealed something about Islam?! Coz you are blind! All people here certainly learnt a lot of new stuff about your Islam and Koran! And guess what? Not from my words, BUT FROM THE VERSES OF KORAN itself. Unless you want to say that I faked these verses?

Thanks so much for not leaving! Please please please start talking about the marriages of your Muhammad and his sexual life! Can't wait!

NewsGuy

03-18-2002, 06:21 PM

Gentlemen, your points would be a lot stronger without the name-calling.

aamir

08-15-2005, 02:02 AM

dear defender,
i hav visited the site for the very first time
i am astonished to read the fact I hav come to know about the quran today which were not known to me before
forget about the the people what they say , the have all been saying about it from they very first day and they will keep on doing it.
its a great job u hav done , keep it up my all blessings are with u
if ur critics need further details they visit http://www.submission.org/math.html
but with open heart and open mind

Agnosthiest

08-19-2005, 12:43 PM

The Quran says that stars are for shooting devils. The entire muslim world, instead of wasting their time burning flags and blowing up people, should spend all their resources trying to discover this unknown scientific information.

Agnosthiest

08-19-2005, 12:45 PM

The Quran also said that the earth is like a carpet. So muslims should not believe the western lies that the world is like a ball.

andak01

08-19-2005, 02:32 PM

Please post the verses where you think you read this.

achaaban

08-19-2005, 04:55 PM

peace be upon you all...

i only want to prove , how 1200 millions of people chosed islam as their religion ,
how they put its rules as principles to them

...

Are you sure that 1200 million people chose Islam? Or they were just born to Muslim parents?

Is there a religion called Islam that some one could be born into? Or is Islam an act of submission that requires man to reason, what is he/she submitting into?

If Islam is an Arabic word that means submit to the will of God in English. I think that the infant does not really reason God. He was actually born into a religion that he/she did not choose, it was imposed on them.

achaaban

08-19-2005, 05:12 PM

THE SUN & MOON AND THEIR ORBITS

So what if the Koran has stated all these miracles, how does this fit within the farce where all those scientists, who discovered the facts that confirmed your miracles were actually not Muslims.

Once the Muslims become more educated and less deficient and start inventing stuff like those Westerners, maybe people will believe your miraculous story.

Why are you still so busy trying to prove that your book is a book from God, instead of doing what it is asking you to do?

The way it looks like in here is that a person that is promoting a religion that is causing his society to be an underdeveloped, uneducated and poor society is preaching that he has the system that is best for the worldâ€™s well being.

You really need to start visualizing this picture and see how it looks like first

Ariksan

08-19-2005, 05:16 PM

The Koran is full of texts that were stolen from other holy books (e.g. the Torah) and other writings of that time. No wonder you may find the occasional truth. Also most of the so called Arab scientific discoveries were in fact not Arab discoveries at all but stolen from the dozens of people the violent Arab invadors slaughtered and the lands their colonialist armies occupy and plunder to this day. Also most of their famous literature are in fact Babylonian or Chaldean in origin. The Arab imperialist thugs just changed the names of the characters.

Mira

08-19-2005, 06:18 PM

So what if the Koran has stated all these miracles, how does this fit within the farce where all those scientists, who discovered the facts that confirmed your miracles were actually not Muslims.

Once the Muslims become more educated and less deficient and start inventing stuff like those Westerners, maybe people will believe your miraculous story.

Why are you still so busy trying to prove that your book is a book from God, instead of doing what it is asking you to do?

The way it looks like in here is that a person that is promoting a religion that is causing his society to be an underdeveloped, uneducated and poor society is preaching that he has the system that is best for the worldâ€™s well being.

You really need to start visualizing this picture and see how it looks like first

well said.

andak01

08-19-2005, 09:25 PM

Are you sure that 1200 million people chose Islam? Or they were just born to Muslim parents?

Is there a religion called Islam that some one could be born into? Or is Islam an act of submission that requires man to reason, what is he/she submitting into?

Muslim children don't pray and fast until such age as they can understand what they are doing. Muslims aren't any less or any more born into the religion than anyone else. How is it worse to be born to Islam than African fetishism, atheism or Mormonism? There is this stereotype that Muslims are forced by the sword to do everything we do. It just isn't so. There are tens of thousands of new Muslim women converts just in America. They are expressing their freedom of religion just like everyone else.

Agnosthiest

08-22-2005, 06:26 AM

Please post the verses where you think you read this.
067.005
YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

020.053
YUSUFALI: "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

No God can make such a stupid mistake.

achaaban

08-22-2005, 09:13 AM

067.005
YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

020.053
YUSUFALI: "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.

No God can make such a stupid mistake.

These quotations above are of an Indian whose first language is not Arabic and his translation of the Koran, after personally reading this translation; I wonder how this translation is allowed to be in the market. It is all written by someone who cannot understand Arabic and is translating Arabic to English. YUSUFALI's translation is not a translation, it is called the meaning of the Koran, and so it is the meaning according to his understanding first of the Arabic Language and second of what it actually means to him spiritually.

The literal translation to this Verse (20:53) is as follows:

"He who has mad the Earth spread out and made for you ways that are easy to travel through, he who has brought rain from the Sky and brought out various pairs of plants ." there is no carpet in the Arabic Verse.

This verse is clearly talking about the Earth as a means of harvest and travel and not the Earth as part of the Universe. So he is talking about how did God make the earth easy for humans to travel through and eat from its harvest.

There are other verses that discuss the day, the night, and the Planets, where in these verses the Cosmos is what is discussed.

As for the Sun, the moon and the Earth, The Koran states:

The sun will never reach the moon nor not the night will precede the day each the sun and the moon swims in an orbit of its own. ( 36:40)

He created the skies and the Earth in what is right, he roles the night over the day and the day over the night and he exploited the sun and the moon (for the day and night) each rotates in an orbit of its own. (39:5)

So there is nothing in the Koran that says that the earth is flat. It is clearly round. Most of these verses are talking about the planets rotating in orbits, presumably these were not flatly carpeted grounds.

You have to remember the Arabs have invented navigation because they knew that the Earth is round, when the Europeans believed that the Earth was flat and that the end of the world is beyond the oceans.

You are right no God makes a stupid mistake like this one since it is a mistake made by YUSUFALI.

achaaban

08-22-2005, 09:23 AM

Muslim children don't pray and fast until such age as they can understand what they are doing. Muslims aren't any less or any more born into the religion than anyone else. How is it worse to be born to Islam than African fetishism, atheism or Mormonism? There is this stereotype that Muslims are forced by the sword to do everything we do. It just isn't so. There are tens of thousands of new Muslim women converts just in America. They are expressing their freedom of religion just like everyone else.

But how did the children choose Islam, when Muslims actually force these children to practice one interpretation of the Koran at a specific age. These Muslim Children and at a specific age, are really not learning the history of the prophets and the messengers of God, or the words of God. These children are being educated someone's interpretation of the Koran, and an invention called the Hadith, which is a modern day â€œreligionâ€ called Islam by force. How are these children being given the right to choose, when only the school of interpretation that their parents follow is what they are taught at the designated age to learn?

They are really not choosing, they are forced to be either Sunnis or Shiites, How did they choose. Besides, Islam means submit your heart to the one God. In other words it is monotheism, what these Children are learning is not monotheism, they are learning a tradition, this tradition is either Sunni or Shii, so they are not learning faith and monotheism they are learning the tradition that their parents follow. How is this not an enforcement of a tradition over children?

Agnosthiest

08-22-2005, 09:56 AM

These quotations above are of an Indian whose first language is not Arabic and his translation of the Koran, after personally reading this translation; I wonder how this translation is allowed to be in the market. It is all written by someone who cannot understand Arabic and is translating Arabic to English. YUSUFALI's translation is not a translation, it is called the meaning of the Koran, and so it is the meaning according to his understanding first of the Arabic Language and second of what it actually means to him spiritually.

The literal translation to this Verse (20:53) is as follows:

"He who has mad the Earth spread out and made for you ways that are easy to travel through, he who has brought rain from the Sky and brought out various pairs of plants ." there is no carpet in the Arabic Verse.

Pickthal used â€œbedâ€ instead. Even the translation you used which says â€œspread outâ€ suggests something that is flat. No God can be that careless.

As for the Sun, the moon and the Earth, The Koran states:

The sun will never reach the moon nor not the night will precede the day each the sun and the moon swims in an orbit of its own. ( 36:40)

He created the skies and the Earth in what is right, he roles the night over the day and the day over the night and he exploited the sun and the moon (for the day and night) each rotates in an orbit of its own. (39:5)

So there is nothing in the Koran that says that the earth is flat. It is clearly round. Most of these verses are talking about the planets rotating in orbits, presumably these were not flatly carpeted grounds.

Nothing there suggests that the earth is a sphere, or even round. Donâ€™t confuse â€˜orbitâ€™ with the shape of the earth. Anything could orbit something of whatever shape.

You have to remember the Arabs have invented navigation because they knew that the Earth is round, when the Europeans believed that the Earth was flat and that the end of the world is beyond the oceans.

There are only a handful of arabs who tried to propose the idea that the earth is round and they got persecuted for contradicting the quran.

You are right no God makes a stupid mistake like this one since it is a mistake made by YUSUFALI.

What about the superstitious idea that stars are for shooting devils?

achaaban

08-22-2005, 10:14 AM

Agnosthiest,

You are free to think that this verse is saying that the Earth is flat; I personally do not see it saying that while reading it in Arabic. I care less if you agree with me or not, and I care less if you think that it is God, or someone else who is saying so.

I am not trying to convince you that it is God who is saying that, and it is the least of my concerns if you do believe that the Koran is a book from God or a book that was a best seller that was written by Muhammad at a point in time.

All what I am saying in here is the word "carpet" is not mentioned in the Arabic Koran, which is the language that the Koran is actually written in. You are reading a translation and not the Arabic, so I do find it difficult to discuss my point with you since obviously we cannot read the same thing in the same language.

achaaban

08-22-2005, 10:19 AM

Gentlemen, your points would be a lot stronger without the name-calling.

Why do you use gentlemen only, is this Forum only for men, so you refrain from using ladies and gentlemen. Weird :confused:

Agnosthiest

08-22-2005, 11:01 AM

You are free to think that this verse is saying that the Earth is flat

I am not a dhimmi so you dont need to remind me what my freedoms are, thank you.

All what I am saying in here is the word "carpet" is not mentioned in the Arabic Koran, which is the language that the Koran is actually written in. You are reading a translation and not the Arabic, so I do find it difficult to discuss my point with you since obviously we cannot read the same thing in the same language.

I did not disagree with you. The fact that translators used different words to convey the message proves that the Arabic word translates to something that is like a carpet but isnâ€™t really a carpet.

achaaban

08-22-2005, 11:49 AM

I am not a dhimmi so you dont need to remind me what my freedoms are, thank you.

What makes you think that by saying you are free to think what you wish is making you a dihimi? where is the connection? :confused:

Just to remind you I am not the Islamic State.

Agnosthiest

08-22-2005, 12:24 PM

What makes you think that by saying you are free to think what you wish is making you a dihimi? where is the connection? :confused:

Just to remind you I am not the Islamic State.

You completely mixed up the message.

Never mind. ;)

atricnorth

09-07-2005, 11:02 AM

the guy" defender" or whatever his name is

anyway, he stays in egypt.

by the way, if you ever realise, egypt has never prospered since god of abraham isaac and jacob delivered the israelians out of egypt.

prove that through the science and wonders, or understand blessings and curses god has put on certain countries

they still have idols there, just for the tourism industry.

the idols of pharoah, set, osiris.

another thing, if you realise jews and christians prosper and move on, and muslims become poorer and poorer blaming christians and jews for their suffering.

i starting to wonder are the arab muslims, actually from cush and put.

read genesis- 16:11-12

to ishmael and his descendents

you are now with a child
and you will have a son
you shall name him ishmael
for the lord has heard you misery

he will be like a wild donkey
of a man

his hand will be against everyone

and everyone;s hand against him

it does reflect anyone who embraces islam, they are under a spell , through this curse.

Badmaash_Lahori

10-03-2005, 03:10 PM

another thing, if you realise jews and christians prosper and move on, and muslims become poorer and poorer blaming christians and jews for their suffering.

How have Jews prospered? Last I remember their numbers were one of the smallest in the world. They never really had a home - were always getting pushed around (WWs). They had only 1 state for themselves, which was built by the help of non-Jews, and also which is not recognized by plenty of nations to date. Their state was considered one of the most dangerous places on the planet. Since the existence of their state, they had been living off aid. Is that your definition of prospering?

And you say the Muslims are growing poorer and poorer? Last I remember, most of the Muslim economies were much bigger than Israel's, and many Muslim countries had a higher GDP/Capita than Israel.

Israel is nothing without America.

Ariksan

10-03-2005, 04:25 PM

How have Jews prospered? Last I remember their numbers were one of the smallest in the world.

Quantity is not quality.

They never really had a home

We always had a home. Only it was occupied by Romans and later by Arabs for a long time.

- were always getting pushed around (WWs).

Yup.

They had only 1 state for themselves

We don't need more than one country. We're not interested in expansion beyond the borders of Eretz Israel. We are not interested in converting people - neither by the sword nor by persuasion.

which was built by the help of non-Jews,

So?

and also which is not recognized by plenty of nations to date

Yup, still a lot of antisemites and haters arround unfortunetly. But since we have an army of ourselves now I'm not really scared.

Their state was considered one of the most dangerous places on the planet.

Thanks to effective Arab propaganda - see above.

Since the existence of their state, they had been living off aid. Is that your definition of prospering?

Bull.s.hit, most foreign aid that Israel receives is part of the agreement with the US regarding the peace treaty with Egypt.

And you say the Muslims are growing poorer and poorer? Last I remember, most of the Muslim economies were much bigger than Israel's, and many Muslim countries had a higher GDP/Capita than Israel.

Great, some families and clans earn big dollar from oil while the rest of their population lives in poverty.

Israel is nothing without America.

Bull.s.hit, until the six day war in 1967 Israel was basicly on its own. Also, we only started to receive large sums of foreign aid after the peace treaty with Egypt. Israel was founded through the sacrifaces of the generation that fought the war of Independence in 1947. I don't remember the US nor the UN sending troops.