Lets Give Peace or Land a Try

[SteveMetch]

Proposal

Step 1: Divide the West Bank and Gaza into approx. 1,000 logical land tracts.

Step 2: Announce to the world that every Israel citizen killed from this point forward will result in the annexation of 1 land tract in the order outlined by a published map.

Step 3: After a terrorist attack has killed X number of citizens the appropriate set of land tracts will be annexed and all Non-Israel citizens will be forcibly removed from the land tract.

Step 4: Any structures deemed unnecessary or that represent a security risk will be removed.


The logical order of land tracts:

Land tracts around the green line that improve security

Land tracts which help connect settlements to what is currently Israel

Land tracts that contain no Arab populations (settlements, open land etc)

Land tracts that contain shanty town Arab populations

Land tracts that do not include infrastructure (power plants etc)

Land tracts that does include infrastructure

Land tracts that contain more permanent Arab populations

All remaining land

Currently there is no established non-ambiguous price tag on violence; as such Israel lives have no value to the Arabs. Placing a definite value on each murder will bring some measure of meaning to the death of so many people as well as establish an ultimate end to the death toll.

Land for Peace has failed. Its time to give Peace or Land a try.


The two possible long term out comes to this are

Option 1:

Arabs stop killing Jews, 100 to 200 years from now when both populations have grown up in an environment of mutal respect and non-violence they will be able to form a Liberal Democracy as one nation.

Option 2:

Arabs continue to kill Jews and are removed from all of Gaza and the West Bank and find somewhere in the remaining 99.5% of the Middle East to live.

[yoyo]

Or maybe Sharon need to clarify the term "contiguous territory in the West Bank", because according to my definition, 20 square meter in one block is consider "contiguous". :D

[peace4ev4]

I cant believe people are talking about stealing and robbing land its not yours to give its alll Gods Land just because you put money on it doesnt mean you own it because God can still take it away just my philosophy of how land should be thought about. i cant believe people are putting they're lives at stake just for some Land. this generation is not peaceful at all its still the leaders fault because no ones capable of believing there is still chance for peace or they dont want peace we shouldnt give up. there is a great chance of peace its just there are people with little faith like politicians.

[JesusRules]

Proposal

Step 1: Divide the West Bank and Gaza into approx. 1,000 logical land tracts.

Step 2: Announce to the world that every Israel citizen killed from this point forward will result in the annexation of 1 land tract in the order outlined by a published map.

Step 3: After a terrorist attack has killed X number of citizens the appropriate set of land tracts will be annexed and all Non-Israel citizens will be forcibly removed from the land tract.

Step 4: Any structures deemed unnecessary or that represent a security risk will be removed.


The logical order of land tracts:

Land tracts around the green line that improve security

Land tracts which help connect settlements to what is currently Israel

Land tracts that contain no Arab populations (settlements, open land etc)

Land tracts that contain shanty town Arab populations

Land tracts that do not include infrastructure (power plants etc)

Land tracts that does include infrastructure

Land tracts that contain more permanent Arab populations

All remaining land

Currently there is no established non-ambiguous price tag on violence; as such Israel lives have no value to the Arabs. Placing a definite value on each murder will bring some measure of meaning to the death of so many people as well as establish an ultimate end to the death toll.

Land for Peace has failed. Its time to give Peace or Land a try.


The two possible long term out comes to this are

Option 1:

Arabs stop killing Jews, 100 to 200 years from now when both populations have grown up in an environment of mutal respect and non-violence they will be able to form a Liberal Democracy as one nation.

Option 2:

Arabs continue to kill Jews and are removed from all of Gaza and the West Bank and find somewhere in the remaining 99.5% of the Middle East to live.


How about go back to the original borders that God gave to Abram in Genesis for His people and then remove everyone except the Jewish people from those borders? This of course would require the whole world to help in the removal because Israel has been reduced to a small accorn sized land since the time of the covenent God gave to Abram. There would be a lot of people to re-locate wouldn't there?

[SteveMetch]

How about go back to the original borders that God gave to Abram in Genesis for His people and then remove everyone except the Jewish people from those borders? This of course would require the whole world to help in the removal because Israel has been reduced to a small accorn sized land since the time of the covenent God gave to Abram. There would be a lot of people to re-locate wouldn't there?

Israel is fully capable on its own of doing exactly what I suggested it only lacks the will.

Muslim’s believe Abraham was a Muslim so it’s Muslim land (river to the sea) according to them, for this and many other reasons. When they speak of "occupation" the mean everything. It’s only the idiots on the left that think they mean sqkm here or there.

Not all problems have good solutions. Many times you must choose between bad and worse.

[Jorge]

From SteveMetch #5:

Not all problems have good solutions. Many times you must choose between bad and worse.
__________________

I cannot but agree to this pearl of wisdom.

It applies however to those situations where, after exhausting all the good or less good solutions you have no alternative than to choose between bad and worse.

What about trying the good ones first instead of starting from the worse solutions? I must confess that your "solution" of the 1000 plots is one of the worst I've heard so far.

[Mediocrates]

How about go back to the original borders that God gave to Abram in Genesis for His people and then remove everyone except the Jewish people from those borders? This of course would require the whole world to help in the removal because Israel has been reduced to a small accorn sized land since the time of the covenent God gave to Abram. There would be a lot of people to re-locate wouldn't there?


There's no reason for Israel to give up Eilat (Moab) ;)

[SteveMetch]

From SteveMetch #5:

Not all problems have good solutions. Many times you must choose between bad and worse.
__________________

I cannot but agree to this pearl of wisdom.

It applies however to those situations where, after exhausting all the good or less good solutions you have no alternative than to choose between bad and worse.

What about trying the good ones first instead of starting from the worse solutions? I must confess that your "solution" of the 1000 plots is one of the worst I've heard so far.

So what is your solution?

One definition of insanity is to do something the same way over and over again and expect a different result.

How’s that whole “land for peace” idea working out for you guys?

Made any new friends by giving back land? Or have you created more deadlier enemies?

Maybe doing the opposite will have the opposite result you think? Take land win friends. It sure can't be any worse. Even if the attacks increase at least you'll get something of value in return.

As it’s now you give back land and you get more attacks. Sounds like lose lose to me.

[Jorge]

Quotes from SteveMetch #8:

So what is your solution?

I’ve been exploring some ideas for paving the way towards a solution in my later Posts in the Thread ‘’A Just Peace or a Practical Durable Peace’’ below. You are welcomed to discuss those ideas there.

One definition of insanity is to do something the same way over and over again and expect a different result.

Again your aphorisms are full of wisdom. That’s the entreating thing about aphorisms, they are always right per se. One cannot but agree with them. Dissent starts though when they are applied to concrete situations. For instance, the notion that repression and collective punishment is the best deterrent has been tried by Israel on the Palestinians ‘over and over again’ and each new time we ‘expect a different result’. Following the internal logic of your aphorism that amounts to insanity.
I suppose though that you didn’t intend it in that context, did you”

As it’s now you give back land and you get more attacks. Sounds like lose lose to me.

I don’t recall we ever “giving back land” to the Palestinians (unless you refer to the settlements dismantled in the Gaza Strip?). However I do recall quite a number of situations where we have appropriated land that the Palestinians consider to be theirs. Even a cursory look to the present map of the WB, with settlements legal and illegal included, will illustrate my point.

[Mahati]

As soon as you realize that exchanging land for peace will never work. The Muslims will never be satisfied until the Jews are driven into the sea and completely out of what they consider to be Palastine. You must be prepared to fight and do what you were supposed to do the first time in the Old Testament but didn't and that is remove all those people from the Land.

[Achihud]

I cant believe people are talking about stealing and robbing land its not yours to give its alll Gods Land just because you put money on it doesnt mean you own it because God can still take it away just my philosophy of how land should be thought about. Maybe Allah is not giving any attention to it. Maybe he can't hear you. Maybe he's taking a nap...
i cant believe people are putting they're lives at stake just for some Land. In the mean time, let's give Wakefield to those poor poor Palestinians. I'm sure it's some land, to an instant-dhimmi4peace like you...
this generation is not peaceful at all its still the leaders fault because no ones capable of believing there is still chance for peace or they dont want peace we shouldnt give up. there is a great chance of peace its just there are people with little faith like politicians. What are you smoking, Woodstock is over! You need to sober up and shout it out loud because your god of nothing is still taking a nap.

[peace4ev4]

Maybe Allah is not giving any attention to it. Maybe he can't hear you. Maybe he's taking a nap...
In the mean time, let's give Wakefield to those poor poor Palestinians. I'm sure it's some land, to an instant-dhimmi4peace like you...
What are you smoking, Woodstock is over! You need to sober up and shout it out loud because your god of nothing is still taking a nap.

you should know Allah does neither sleep nor slumber. nor does he tire. he created the heavens and the earth. you should know that your deficiating your own god too because they are both same.well if you wanna be gready and keep him to yourself then i think your being a bit childish. after all there is only one god. he doesnt have human deficiency like us. well you have more deficiencies i suggest since you desist from peace why are you despising me and my religion when i neither despised or said anything against yours its not right to discriminate you have sunk low today my friend because you are giving a bad representation of yourself to me and others.

[Achihud]

you should know Allah does neither sleep nor slumber. nor does he tire. he created the heavens and the earth. So you are muslim then! I should have checked. you should know that your deficiating your own god too because they are both same. well if you wanna be gready and keep him to yourself then i think your being a bit childish. after all there is only one god. That's the thing you see, to you they are the same, to me they ain't.
Just out of curiosity, how many times can you repeat "there is only one god" and "they are both same"? why are you despising me and my religion when i neither despised or said anything against yours its not right to discriminate you have sunk low today my friend because you are giving a bad representation of yourself to me and others. I thought I was addressing a candidate dhimmi, not its master.

[JesusRules]

There's no reason for Israel to give up Eilat (Moab) ;)

:cool:

[peace4ev4]

So you are muslim then! I should have checked. That's the thing you see, to you they are the same, to me they ain't.

Just out of curiosity, how many times can you repeat "there is only one god" and "they are both same"? I thought I was addressing a candidate dhimmi, not its master.
by repeating thus it reasures and knocks out inequaties truth knocks out lies. how can they not be the same. is it because we praise him day and night is it because commands usto be rightoes and uphold the law. is it because he calls too you as the people of the book, or is it his great Awe which you cant stand. know tha he knows all things. do you wanna know why we call him Allah not God.
Allah means the being worth worship. there is no equal to him and he is one and only. Non muslims have gods and godesses. the christians have jesus as god and the hindus have Krishna as god. they worship them as personified gods for their idol worship similarly budhists and parsis have their own idol gods. there are godfathers and godmothers. the criminal underworld has their own mafia gods and drugs gods.
This is the reason thereforew Allah is the greates name of the one God and that is why i always say one God so u know who i am referring to.

It is all about intention if you worship the lord of the creator heavens of the earth, the master of the day of judgement, the supreme, the majestic, the being worth worship, then your on the right track.
but if your calling him father which is a human characteristics the same which you call your priests your Father too your way off the straight path or refer to jesus as god and his mother as one too. well now we are worshipping more than one god which is blasphemy.
we worship no one but the supreme, the All Knowing, the All Merciful. none is born of him and neither is he he born. he is Allah and there is none like unto him.
why is it so easy(enjoyment) to worship him when you associate things with god and dislike it when you are told to just worship him on his own without assocaiting anything with him, even Idols.
and dont say we copied from the bible because the Bible wasn’t translated into Arabic until 40 years after the Qur’an was written! Wouldn’t this prove divine inspiration of the Qur’an? and it has over 9 million muslims who have memorised it by heart. it is obvious that God has created a special book indeed. name one christian who has memorised the whole bible or any book of the same volume which is 613 pages and 114 chapters. plus predicting the future and astronomy and science which has only been discovered in the late 20th century and amazingly could only have been discovered with todays technology. in Addition to that Muhammad(peace be up on him) is known as the worlds greatest leader of whole times by Micheal Heart and it is fact because of his attributes that is why Islam is true and the fastest growing religion. peace be with you.

[Achihud]

by repeating thus it reasures and knocks out inequaties truth knocks out lies. If you repeat things often enough you also get brainwashed by it. how can they not be the same. is it because we praise him day and night is it because commands usto be rightoes and uphold the law. is it because he calls too you as the people of the book, or is it his great Awe which you cant stand. know tha he knows all things. Your god knows the mechanisms of brainwashing well enough, I’ll give you that… do you wanna know why we call him Allah not God.
Allah means the being worth worship. there is no equal to him and he is one and only. But my One and only God does not agree with that, He says the other One is lying!
It is all about intention if you worship the lord of the heavens of the earth, the master of the day of judgement, the supreme, the majestic, the being worth worship, then your on the right track. So if a prophet comes along and says that Jupiter is the lord of the heavens of the earth, the master of the day of judgement, the supreme, the majestic, the being worth worship. You automatically assume Jupiter to be the One and only and the same as Allah?

[peace4ev4]

If you repeat things often enough you also get brainwashed by it. Your god knows the mechanisms of brainwashing well enough, I’ll give you that… But my One and only God does not agree with that, He says the other One is lying!

wat if theres only one how can there be another.

So if a prophet comes along and says that Jupiter is the lord of the heavens of the earth, the master of the day of judgement, the supreme, the majestic, the being worth worship. You automatically assume Jupiter to be the One and only and the same as Allah?

no way that is blasphemy to worship a planet because Allah is the creator of the heavens and the earth that goes for the moon the stars the sun and ever othe planet and creature that exists. Allah created everything i mean everything. Its all about your heart my friend you have to believe with heart that you are worshiping He who is worthy of worship and you and i know there is only one who is worthy of worship come on truthfully in your heart you know the truth that there is no being worth of worship except the one being worth of worship.

[peace4ev4]

[QUOTE=Achihud]If you repeat things often enough you also get brainwashed by it.

what happened to common sense then. so if the devil tells you everyday to take the wrong path are you being brainwashed?

[Achihud]

wat if theres only one how can there be another. I am peace4ev4 and I am the only one. I am you and I always have been. So from the day you don't post anymore, people will believe that I am you and that once you were me because I have said so and I’ll keep repeating! That's how...:D
no way that is blasphemy to worship a planet because Allah is the creator of the heavens and the earth that goes for the moon the stars the sun and ever othe planet and creature that exists. If you only would know how easy a prophet of Jupiter can fix your problems. It would go something like; "Jupiter has revealed to me that all previous thing attributed to Jupiter are false. People in the past mistook Jupiter for a planet, which he is not. The real Jupiter has no shape or form and he is the one and only god. He is also the same as the god of the muslims." Blasphemy again?

[peace4ev4]

If you only would know how easy a prophet of Jupiter can fix your problems. It would go something like; "Jupiter has revealed to me that all previous thing attributed to Jupiter are false. People in the past mistook Jupiter for a planet, which he is not. The real Jupiter has no shape or form and he is the one and only god. He is also the same as the god of the muslims." Blasphemy again?[/QUOTE]

what planet you from i just said we worshim Allah which means being worth worship and he is the creator of you and me nd stop smoking on the pipe coz your not making any sense you just give idiotic conclusions which are of no sense.
Jews will always be jews if the can't see it they wont believe it. just like when you wanted to see Allah because you couldnt believe even after all those miracles you still turn to the calf so how do you expect to be guided. how will you ever know what is truth or what is false.

[Achihud]

what planet you from (...) stop smoking on the pipe coz your not making any sense you just give idiotic conclusions which are of no sense I know from what planet you are; Jupiter!
You speak to me about idiotic conclusions only because you can’t defend your Allah from a one and only Jupiter. And if you can’t defend your Allah against other one and only god-claims, then why should we equalize your Allah with our God? The answer is, there is no reason because you can’t give us any.
Every false prophet can believe in his own One and only god. There’s NO intellectual law against it!!! That’s why your magic "one and only god" words don’t work no matter how many times you keep repeating them! And repeating is all you can do...
i just said we worshim Allah which means being worth worship and he is the creator of you and me Just out of curiosity, how many times can you repeat that?

[peace4ev4]

Just out of curiosity, how many times can you repeat that?

you keep repeating them! And repeating is all you can do mate thats your problem i have answered yor question but your IQ seems a bit too low. thats all you can ever oh how many times can you say that. look at the fact not how many times can you say its like sayin i know you are you said you are so what am i. its pathetic come back when you have real knowledge.

[peace4ev4]

I am peace4ev4 and I am the only one. I am you and I always have been. So from the day you don't post anymore, people will believe that I am you and that once you were me because I have said so and I’ll keep repeating! That's how...:D
?

well you cant be me because we have different parents i am from somewhere else i am born in wakefield and you are a the only thing we have in common is we are human and are both a creation and if you havent noticed there is more than one human which is a fact your gonna have to come with a better answer than that. there might be one jupiter but jupiter does not fit in the catigory as a creator because first it does nothing but spin it is a creation not a creator, it is not everywhere where Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein. which jupiter isnt. are you going to say something more stupid now:cool:

[Achihud]

i have answered yor question but your IQ seems a bit too low. Only because I don’t take your islamic answers for a religious dogma like yourself, you call my IQ a bit low!
Truth is, I try to bring my IQ down to your level of understanding…
look at the fact not how many times can you say (...) And what are the facts;
Every false prophet can believe in his own One and only god. There’s NO intellectual law against it!!!
I call that a fact!

In theory any prophet can state that Jupiter or Zues or Baal is the one and only god and that it is the same as another one and only god.
Do you agree or not?

[peace4ev4]

In theory any prophet can state that Jupiter or Zues or Baal is the one and only god and that it is the same as another one and only god.
Do you agree or not?

there might be one jupiter but jupiter does not fit in the catigory as a creator because first it does nothing but spin it is a creation not a creator, it is not everywhere where Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein. which jupiter isnt or anything else . takes a while sink in doesnt it i know this is what i mean wait il underline it too just for you.
does it say zeus is the creator of the heavens and the earth, does it say baal created the heavens and the earth. does it say baal/zeus/or jupiter will be a judge if so bring me a sign which people will follow make sure he is a Prophet who can Answer all the Questions of the unknown and always wins in his argument on top of that please make sure you practice what you preach and dont do wrong show compassion and patience oyea give up your whole life and everything you everdid and stay day and night praying not that people remeber your name but Gods. from him make me book of guidance for the whole of the nation and Mankind then challenge the whole of humanity to write a book like it and make sure you memorise it to show you have faith not even your own Rabbis can't even do this.
dont compare Islam with Idol worship because it condemns it you and I know this. so if you got something to say. say it with understanding not with a low level IQ.

[Achihud]

well you cant be me because we have different parents (...) are you going to say something more stupid now:cool: Still my word against yours that I’m peace4ev4.

I’ll take my chances in the tactics of repeating myself, the same way you do it when you say that Allah is the same god. You’re not really good at receiving your own (islamic) recipe are you?

[peace4ev4]

Of course, the word "God" does not actually appear in the original Hebrew or Greek manuscripts of the Bible, accepted as Holy by both Christians and Muslims. "God" is an old English word which developed from an Indo-European word, meaning "that which is invoked," which is also the ancestor of the German word Gott (meaning: God).

Some Christians unthinkingly say 'Allah is not God.' This is the ultimate blasphemy to Muslims, and furthermore, it is difficult to understand. Allah is the primary Arabic word for God. It means 'The God.' There are some minor exceptions. For example, the Bible in some Muslim lands uses a word for God other than Allah (Farsi and Urdu are examples). But for more than five hundred years before Muhammad, the vast majority of Jews and Christians in Arabia called God by the name Allah. How, then, can we say that Allah is an invalid name for God? If it is, to whom have these Jews and Christians been praying?

And what about the 10 to 12 million Arab Christians today? They have been calling God 'Allah' in their Bibles, hymns, poems, writings, and worship for over nineteen centuries. What an insult to them when we tell them not to use this word 'Allah'! Instead of bridging the distance between Muslims and Christians, we widen the gulf of separation between them and us when we promote such a doctrine. Those who still insist that it is blasphemy to refer to God as Allah should also consider that Muhammad's father was named Abd Allah, 'God's servant,' many years before his son was born or Islam was founded!"

[peace4ev4]

Still my word against yours that I’m peace4ev4.

I’ll take my chances in the tactics of repeating myself, the same way you do it when you say that Allah is the same god. You’re not really good at receiving your own (islamic) recipe are you?

no im just not used to childish behaviour. this sight is for adults not 12 year olds.

[Achihud]

there might be one jupiter but jupiter does not fit in the catigory as a creator because first it does nothing but spin (...) You still don’t get it do you.
It doesn’t matter if it is about Jupiter or Tujiper or Allah or the G O D-word!

Point is, if a prophet comes and says that he believes in a one and only god, does that per definition mean that he has talked with the One and only God or could it be that he is lying. Maybe he doesn’t lie, maybe he does lie and knows it, maybe he lies and doesn’t even now it because he had real revelations but not from God. So there are all sorts of possibilities to a non-muslim to doubt that Mohammed was a prophet of God. Hence Allah is not God to us so what can you do then repeat that he is?
Takes a while to sink in doesn't it...

Some Christians unthinkingly say 'Allah is not God.' This is the ultimate blasphemy to Muslims (…) Blasphemy again huh...:D

So any jew or christian who is opposed to the idea that ‘Allah is the same god because muslims say so’-dogma, has committed ultimate blasphemy!!! I guess they can forget about being considered as good people who will receive reward in the end?

[peace4ev4]

You still don’t get it do you.
. So there are all sorts of possibilities to a non-muslim to doubt that Mohammed was a prophet of God. Hence Allah is not God to us so what can you do then repeat that he is?

Read his biography before you corespond your answers i know about Moses nd i have read his biography question is have you read his.
ok this wil shut it 4 you. There is nothing like unto Allah. he is the same as your but is given greater attributes and nothing will see him until judgement Day written in the quran itself and unfortunately for you everything you can see. cant be him :cool: plus he is all merciful and gracious so he cant be evil. we dont steel from the torah our religion will have more information than yours ever will because ours is completely full. does the torah even mention what is in heaven? or what happens in life after death? what are the first questions that will be asked of you wen you reach the grave? what are the punishments of the grave? how many angels can you name i can name six and can even tell you each one does. and can tell you what lots more do and how the sun rises in the morn. what actually happens on judgement day how will everything start. finally what will be in Hell for the wrong doers and unbelievers.

[Achihud]

While you are probably under the impression of winning a debate here, I’ve had to make a summary of this rumble of your English word puzzle; Read his biography before you corespond your answers (…) and can tell you (…) lots more (…) finally what will be in Hell for the wrong doers and unbelievers Yes, what about those wrong doers and unbelievers because that was the latest question you conveniently ignored in #29; Some Christians unthinkingly say 'Allah is not God.' This is the ultimate blasphemy to Muslims (…) So any jew or christian who is opposed to the idea that ‘Allah is the same god because muslims say so’-dogma, has committed ultimate blasphemy!!! I guess they can forget about being considered as good people who will receive reward in the end?
Now don’t ignore me again by telling that I have to read biographies first.
I’m here to participate in a debate, not to read anyone else’s book collection!

Have jews/christians who are opposed to the idea that…and I quote you again from #30;
"Allah (…) is the same as your (god?)"
…become wrong doers and unbelievers with the ultimate blasphemy in mind? Yes or No?

[snufkin]

Of course, the word "God" does not actually appear in the original Hebrew ..."
God is not a word in Hebrew. The equivalent word in Hebrew is Elohim which sounds very similar to Allah. So it's very clear that the Muslems are trying to pray to the same Elohim....

[SteveMetch]

I’ve been exploring some ideas for paving the way towards a solution in my later Posts in the Thread ‘’A Just Peace or a Practical Durable Peace’’ below. You are welcomed to discuss those ideas there.

The simple fact is that Muslims are indoctrinated from birth to hate all non-Muslims (specifically Jews). They are also indoctrinated that any land Muslims have previous conquered should never go back to Non-Muslims (especially Jews). Those are the facts.

“A Just Peace or a Practical Durable Peace” will only happen when you are not surrounded by Muslims it’s really that simple. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about this.

Some people are so open minded that their brain falls out.

Again your aphorisms are full of wisdom. That’s the entreating thing about aphorisms, they are always right per se. One cannot but agree with them. Dissent starts though when they are applied to concrete situations. For instance, the notion that repression and collective punishment is the best deterrent has been tried by Israel on the Palestinians ‘over and over again’ and each new time we ‘expect a different result’. Following the internal logic of your aphorism that amounts to insanity.
I suppose though that you didn’t intend it in that context, did you”.

No my logic is a little more historical than fictional.

It worked for Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan, both of which are among the most peaceful nations on earth with the 2nd and 3rd largest economies in the world no less. You can do worse than be leveled by the United States apparently.

Looks like the only humane thing to do is to utterly destroy your enemies and rebuild them in your image.

This action is collectively known as “War” by the way.

I don’t recall we ever “giving back land” to the Palestinians (unless you refer to the settlements dismantled in the Gaza Strip?). However I do recall quite a number of situations where we have appropriated land that the Palestinians consider to be theirs. Even a cursory look to the present map of the WB, with settlements legal and illegal included, will illustrate my point.

First of all the Muslim’s don’t make the distinction between this land parcel or that land parcel, when they say “occupation” the mean every square inch the Jews occupy including the land under your feet right now.

Second the Jewish homeland includes everything west of the Jordan River. This was the intent of the international community when it broke up trans-Jordan along the Jordan River. The Muslims on the East side of the Jordan the Jews on the West side of the Jordan. The courageous Jews before you held onto what they could after continuous murderous and overwhelming Muslim attacks.

[Jorge]

Quote from SteveMetch's Post #33:

“A Just Peace or a Practical Durable Peace” will only happen when you are not surrounded by Muslims it’s really that simple. I don’t know what is so hard to understand about this.

Well, I for one find it “hard to understand this”. How could this be achieved considering that Israel is the only non-Moslem country in the whole region? Does he propose to convert all Moslems to another faith? Some sort of evangelical crusade?

That procedure wouldn’t be a very clever one because over the ages we Jews suffered far more in the hands of the Christians than of the Moslems. There’s no guarantee really that Christians will not revert in the future to their old habits so it would be like exchanging cinders for a fire.

Or is his solution far more drastic, as may be inferred from another paragraph of his?, quote:

Looks like the only humane thing to do is to utterly destroy your enemies and rebuild them in your image.

That is, not to convert them to the True Faith as a first step, but first to destroy them utterly and then, if there are any left, to rebuild them in “your image”. Which image might be that? That of SteveMetch and the ones that think like him? That again would be unwise because, in that new image they would be more barbaric and bloodthirsty than what most Moslems seem to be nowadays.

By contrast to those grandiose enterprises, the ideas I was proposing, that is, diplomatic negotiations to pave the way to an eventual peace, look far too modest. They don't imply a New World Order or a Final Solution. Just a procedure where contenders would try to smooth their differences in a civilized manner.

[SteveMetch]

Well, I for one find it “hard to understand this”. How could this be achieved considering that Israel is the only non-Moslem country in the whole region? Does he propose to convert all Moslems to another faith? Some sort of evangelical crusade?

That procedure wouldn’t be a very clever one because over the ages we Jews suffered far more in the hands of the Christians than of the Moslems. There’s no guarantee really that Christians will not revert in the future to their old habits so it would be like exchanging cinders for a fire.

Or is his solution far more drastic, as may be inferred from another paragraph of his?, quote:

That is, not to convert them to the True Faith as a first step, but first to destroy them utterly and then, if there are any left, to rebuild them in “your image”. Which image might be that? That of SteveMetch and the ones that think like him? That again would be unwise because, in that new image they would be more barbaric and bloodthirsty than what most Moslems seem to be nowadays.

By contrast to those grandiose enterprises, the ideas I was proposing, that is, diplomatic negotiations to pave the way to an eventual peace, look far too modest. They don't imply a New World Order or a Final Solution. Just a procedure where contenders would try to smooth their differences in a civilized manner.

Germany and Japan are still culturally intact. They now direct the strength of their culture towards peaceful and productive endeavors as opposed to wholesale racist murder, big improvement don’t you think? They are neither Christian nor American and that’s just fine. What they are now are freemen living their life as they wish constrained by the rule of democratically defined law within the context of common set of equally applied human rights. Human rights that are explicitly forbidden in Islamic Law by the way. Important safety tip for your bestest buddies the Muslims.

When I say “our image” I mean the collective image of the modern western world which is characterized by liberty not religion.

It is utterly impossible by definition for a Christian “Christ Like” to attack or murder Jews because they are Jews. There is not one passage or teaching in the Christian bible that could even be construed to justify this. In fact the Christian bible is so pacifistic that it needs to be construed to even justify a minimal amount of self-defense.

We have to go to the Jewish scripture for anything that even approaches active opposition and only then against those that would murder you.

Evil people will use whatever means they can to justify in minds of the ignorant violence against others. This doesn’t always mean the ideology is evil.

Some ideologies though were designed around the murder of non-adherents. Nazism, Japanese Imperialism, Communism and Islam are good examples.

Islam explicitly and continuously justifies violence against non-Muslims as requirement of all faithful Muslims. You know the guys pulling the triggers on those missiles raining ball bearings everywhere in Israel right now while dreaming of launching Nukes at you and us in the future.

Yah, go right ahead and keeping on worrying about those nasty Christians who worshiping a Jew as if he were the son of G-d. Yep you’re right watch out for those guys who actually take G-d at his word when he says he will curse those who curse the Jews. Pay no attention to all those exploding Muslim visiting your local restaurant and celebrations.

It’s those evil Christian who took in the Jewish refuges from Europe, liberated the Nazi death camps, endorsed the re-establishment of the modern state of Israel and supplies you weapons and money to this very day. Yep you’re right we are the real threat. Watch out for us we are just saving you so we can secretly kill you in the end. BooHaaHaa.

[Achihud]

God is not a word in Hebrew. The equivalent word in Hebrew is Elohim which sounds very similar to Allah. So it's very clear that the Muslems are trying to pray to the same Elohim....hi i am peace4ev4 do what can i do 4 you mate?

[SteveMetch]

God is not a word in Hebrew. The equivalent word in Hebrew is Elohim which sounds very similar to Allah. So it's very clear that the Muslems are trying to pray to the same Elohim....

Whatever it may sound like their is no similarity between Jewish God “I am” and Meccan pagan rock idol “Allah”. There are people with the surname of Lee in England and China as well.

Muslim’s don’t say there is no Allah but Allah. They say there is no God but Allah. Allah was name of a multitude of pagan rock Gods in Mecca and just happened to be surprise surprise surprise the primary rock idol of Mohammed’s tribe. Mohammed didn’t like competition hence the origination of the first submission element of Islamic theology.

Islam “God Names” 101

Before Mohammed was thrown out of Mecca by his pagan brothers he claimed to be prophet of the Allah the rock god. One of many in a pile of rocks.

Once he encountered the Jewish religious tradition in Medina he tried to convince them that he was a prophet of “I am” who the Jews never said aloud out of respect. When asked what the name of the Jewish God was, Mohammed who couldn’t read, used Allah or Lord (what Jews sometimes replaced “I am” with when reading aloud their scriptures). This ignorance proved to the Jews that Mohammed was no prophet of their God “I am”.

After a lot killing, raping and stealing Mohammed returned to Mecca with his band of thieves to plunder and kill all who wouldn’t submit to “Allah” and/or pay the tax thereby claiming all the pilgrimage revenue of the Meccan religious scam still in place, rituals and all, to this very day.

200 years after Mohammed was killed by one of his many sex slaves this chronology was latter jumbled to cover up the obvious scam and evil of Islam when placed in its true chronological order.

In fact given the time between the events and their complication its probable the only way it could have been remembered and past down since it’s easier to remember anything as a story than a random series of sayings and events its present form.

[David II]

Read his biography before you corespond your answers i know about Moses nd i have read his biography question is have you read his.
ok this wil shut it 4 you. There is nothing like unto Allah. he is the same as your but is given greater attributes and nothing will see him until judgement Day written in the quran itself and unfortunately for you everything you can see. cant be him :cool: plus he is all merciful and gracious so he cant be evil. we dont steel from the torah our religion will have more information than yours ever will because ours is completely full. does the torah even mention what is in heaven? or what happens in life after death? what are the first questions that will be asked of you wen you reach the grave? what are the punishments of the grave? how many angels can you name i can name six and can even tell you each one does. and can tell you what lots more do and how the sun rises in the morn. what actually happens on judgement day how will everything start. finally what will be in Hell for the wrong doers and unbelievers.


Well, you're a big bugg@red then old son - everyone knows that HE is a Christian. Whilst we're not certain that HE is an Englishman, we're pretty certain that HE isn't Welsh.

In terms of angels, pity they didn't stop some of your lot in 7/7.

[Achihud]

Well, you're a big bugg@red then old son - everyone knows that HE is a Christian. Whilst we're not certain that HE is an Englishman, we're pretty certain that HE isn't Welsh. Nice try but I don't think you will bring him back though, meanwhile...


i hope you understand Allah cant be same unless I am peace4ev4. peace be with you.

[peace4ev4]

Originally Posted by peace4ev4
Read his biography before you corespond your answers i know about Moses nd i have read his biography question is have you read his.
ok this wil shut it 4 you. There is nothing like unto Allah. he is the same as your but is given greater attributes and nothing will see him until judgement Day written in the quran itself and unfortunately for you everything you can see. cant be him plus he is all merciful and gracious so he cant be evil. we dont steel from the torah our religion will have more information than yours ever will because ours is completely full. does the torah even mention what is in heaven? or what happens in life after death? what are the first questions that will be asked of you wen you reach the grave? what are the punishments of the grave? how many angels can you name i can name six and can even tell you each one does. and can tell you what lots more do and how the sun rises in the morn. what actually happens on judgement day how will everything start. finally what will be in Hell for the wrong doers and unbelievers.

[peace4ev4]

by the way the innocent people who died on 7/7 may Allah have mercy on them. besides thats for Allah to judge not for you.

[Achihud]

Read his biography before you corespond your answers (3x already) Silly attempt to ignore a clear yes or no question; Don’t ignore me again by telling that I have to read biographies first.
I’m here to participate in a debate, not to read anyone else’s book collection!

Have jews/christians who are opposed to the idea that…and I quote you again from #30; Allah (…) is the same as your (god?)
…become wrong doers and unbelievers with the ultimate blasphemy in mind? Yes or No? What are you going to do, more underlining?

[peace4ev4]

No the good christians and Jews will also go to heaven aslong as they believe in God and worship him and ask for his guidance. its just having different faiths means different guidance to good deeds aslong as you accept God and be a good person and do good deeds you eneter heaven but its not easy as you know to stay on the straight path Islam just has more restrictions for example Alcohol and certain meet without blood, see every muslim as a brother and so on also these which are included in yours are also included in Islam suicide, killing innocents, respect your elders, dont even say ooof to your mother, do not commit adultery dont steel, but yet Muslims still do it, even christians or jews commit suicides. dont worry the muslims who did they're suicides are going to hell without a doubt unless God knows something else. i should'nt say that anyone specific is going to hell because no one knows the outcome of where anyone will end up on judgement day even i might go to hell awww man i hope God forgives.
i mean check this out
dont take this seriously if you don't want its a prophecy He (p.b.u.h) said 1 out 72 sects in Islam will enter Paradise because Islam will be split in to 72 sects. christians in 71 sects only one will go through nd Jews wil have 70 sects and only one will go through so Islam isnt being bias its the 71 sects that are on the wrong path that are going to hell that are mostly representing Islam just like with christians and jews. i mean some christian sects worship satan. some jew might plan deaths behind doors for the sake of Money. these are just examples they might not be true im just ellabarating what i mean.
If i said something of which i didn't clearly know i hope my lord forgives me and hope you forgive me too im serious from the bottom of my heart I love you all.

[Neubill]

That procedure wouldn’t be a very clever one because over the ages we Jews suffered far more in the hands of the Christians than of the Moslems. There’s no guarantee really that Christians will not revert in the future to their old habits so it would be like exchanging cinders for a fire.

Obviously, the Moslems are jealous and are trying to become 'Top Dog' in the Jewish oppression department.

And regarding the Road Map for Peace, I think somebody lost the map. :rolleyes:

[AmericanFanatic]

Proposal

Step 1: Divide the West Bank and Gaza into approx. 1,000 logical land tracts.

Step 2: Announce to the world that every Israel citizen killed from this point forward will result in the annexation of 1 land tract in the order outlined by a published map.

Step 3: After a terrorist attack has killed X number of citizens the appropriate set of land tracts will be annexed and all Non-Israel citizens will be forcibly removed from the land tract.

Step 4: Any structures deemed unnecessary or that represent a security risk will be removed.


The logical order of land tracts:

Land tracts around the green line that improve security

Land tracts which help connect settlements to what is currently Israel

Land tracts that contain no Arab populations (settlements, open land etc)

Land tracts that contain shanty town Arab populations

Land tracts that do not include infrastructure (power plants etc)

Land tracts that does include infrastructure

Land tracts that contain more permanent Arab populations

All remaining land

Currently there is no established non-ambiguous price tag on violence; as such Israel lives have no value to the Arabs. Placing a definite value on each murder will bring some measure of meaning to the death of so many people as well as establish an ultimate end to the death toll.

Land for Peace has failed. Its time to give Peace or Land a try.


The two possible long term out comes to this are

Option 1:

Arabs stop killing Jews, 100 to 200 years from now when both populations have grown up in an environment of mutal respect and non-violence they will be able to form a Liberal Democracy as one nation.

Option 2:

Arabs continue to kill Jews and are removed from all of Gaza and the West Bank and find somewhere in the remaining 99.5% of the Middle East to live.

You are a bloody genius! When can we implement this strategy? I've always believed that the Isrealis should have forcibley removed ALL Palestinians back in 1967. If they had done that then things would be much better of than they are now.