Burning Bridges

[localbrew]

I was watching an old Clint Eastwood movie last night called Kelly's Heroes and the theme song "Burning Bridges" reminded me of Israel and the Palestinians.

Years have passed and I keep thinking what else could have been.
I look back into the past and think of way back then.
I know I lost everything I thought that I could win.
I guess I should've listened to my friends.
All the Burning Bridges are a burnin' after me.
All the lonely feelings and a burning memory.
Everyone I left behind each time I closed the door....

Burning Bridges, gone forevermore.

Maybe both sides should start to hum a tune about now.

[humus_sapiens]

Strictly from my life experience, it is not a good idea to burn bridges. Especially with your neighboors. I'd prefer making peace.
What needs to be done for peace to take hold?

1. Physically destroy the most obstinate terrorists and their leaders. If that won't "convince" other radicals and terror continues, The Steve Metch's plan proposed here is a good solution. If that takes winning the war, so be it. Just as America did in Afghan & Iraq.

2. Then start implementation of long-term peace, such as Benny Elon's plan.

But most importanty, don't negotiate with terrorists and don't give them legitimacy.

[Johnny Yuma]

Why burn bridges, when you can set the whole river on fire?

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Strictly from my life experience, it is not a good idea to burn bridges. Especially with your neighboors. I'd prefer making peace.
What needs to be done for peace to take hold?

1. Physically destroy the most obstinate terrorists and their leaders. If that won't "convince" other radicals and terror continues, The Steve Metch's plan proposed here is a good solution. If that takes winning the war, so be it. Just as America did in Afghan & Iraq.

2. Then start implementation of long-term peace, such as Benny Elon's plan.

But most importanty, don't negotiate with terrorists and don't give them legitimacy.

At least some Israeli's aren't so weak that they will do ANYTHING to stop terrorism - even if it means their death by further terrorism is imminent. It's kind of ironic that the thing most Israeli's think will save them, is really the thing that's going to kill them. It's unfortuantely pathetic, but many Jews have been too optimismic and refused to see the truth. Some of those same Jews lived in Hitler's concentration camps and nearly walked wilfully to the gas chambers. What is wrong with us? Why are Jews in general so liberal? Why do Jews not care about the things that should matter to them[and to you liberal Jews who WILL ask, they should matter in MY opinion]? Why do Jews want to assimilate so badly, that they will risk death doing it? Why? Why? Why?

[richcrassus]

I think an Iran style religious govt in israel would work at the moment. I think Shas and Moledet and the "settlers" partys should join forces and over throw sharon and make them backbenches.
Than they would 'expel' the 'pals' to jordan and not give in the $$$ instead of saving jewish lives.
any thoughs? would one of my ideas (this one) work???

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by richcrassus
I think an Iran style religious govt in israel would work at the moment. I think Shas and Moledet and the "settlers" partys should join forces and over throw sharon and make them backbenches.
Than they would 'expel' the 'pals' to jordan and not give in the $$$ instead of saving jewish lives.
any thoughs? would one of my ideas (this one) work???

An Iranian style goverment that didn't opress the people.

[eyl]

Originally posted by richcrassus
I think an Iran style religious govt in israel would work at the moment. I think Shas and Moledet and the "settlers" partys should join forces and over throw sharon and make them backbenches.


Thanks but no thanks

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by richcrassus
I think an Iran style religious govt in israel would work at the moment. I think Shas and Moledet and the "settlers" partys should join forces and over throw sharon and make them backbenches.
Than they would 'expel' the 'pals' to jordan and not give in the $$$ instead of saving jewish lives.
any thoughs? would one of my ideas (this one) work???


No probably not. The effect of the 'far right' religious parties in Israel is overstated because of the crazy quilt nature of their electoral politics. While they might not garner more than 5, 6 or 7% of the total electorate the direct nature of their electoral rules tends to amplify their effect in government and its perennial coalitions. The same is true by the way on the left. If Israel had voting wards or districts instead of line by line lists the outlier parties on both ends would largely disappear from the Knesset.

[Adversary2Arabs]

Bottom line is the Muslim Arabs (not Yemenite Jews, or people who are known today to be Druze in Israel) either get out, or die refusing. It's the most precise and competant way of saving Israel and Israelis.

(if you don't agree, that's nice, let me know because my ignore list is getting a little light)

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by eyl
Thanks but no thanks

Oh ok, so living in fear for the rest of your life is better isnt it?

And by an Iran style religious govt in israel, i dont mean one that oppresses the people and jails them for life for protesting, i mean that rabbis should make the laws etc... (like it ancient israel it was the jewish priests who made the law), they would expel the pals, and than there would be peace, and not just a ceasefire like sharon is proposing,and giving in to murderers.

[Mediocrates]

Well if Judges is any guidepost the Israeli nation almost destroyed itself when it believed that it could combine the spiritual leader and civic power in the same person.

[richcrassus]

Well the country is starting to crack apart right now, and religion is NOT controlling the country.

[elke]

Originally posted by richcrassus
Well the country is starting to crack apart right now, and religion is NOT controlling the country.

Where are you getting the idea that Israel is "starting to crack apart?" Based on what?

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke
Where are you getting the idea that Israel is "starting to crack apart?" Based on what?

Crack apart - no. Stick a shotgun in it's mouth? Yes.

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by elke
Where are you getting the idea that Israel is "starting to crack apart?" Based on what?

Based on the economy, dosent matter how much the US gives, or how much $$ they cause raise through charitable causes from jews in the diaspora, bad management will bankrupt any good country,or company.
And also that sharon is even talking to palestinian militants and even considering giving in to their demands is very bad.
Maybe he dosent realise it but they will NEVER be satisfied with any concessions israel makes, right now israel is releasing murders and its still not enough for these animals(worse than animlas cos animals only kill for food), maybe if sharon lost a family member in an attack, than he would actually do something to stop all this rott.
Thats how it always works, here in australia, there was a bad road and for years the govt did nothing even though there were accidents all the time, untill some polies wife nearly died in a crash, guess what happened next, THEY PUT IN A SET OF LIGHT, unbelievable, who would have thought a set of lights would stop accidents? maybe it was einstein
but there u have it

[red crabtree]

Please give an instance in history where a theocracy was able to attain freedom for it's citizens, as well as being able to provide law that did not harm others different from them.

[elke]

Originally posted by richcrassus
Based on the economy, dosent matter how much the US gives, or how much $$ they cause raise through charitable causes from jews in the diaspora, bad management will bankrupt any good country,or company.
And also that sharon is even talking to palestinian militants and even considering giving in to their demands is very bad.
Maybe he dosent realise it but they will NEVER be satisfied with any concessions israel makes, right now israel is releasing murders and its still not enough for these animals(worse than animlas cos animals only kill for food), maybe if sharon lost a family member in an attack, than he would actually do something to stop all this rott.
Thats how it always works, here in australia, there was a bad road and for years the govt did nothing even though there were accidents all the time, untill some polies wife nearly died in a crash, guess what happened next, THEY PUT IN A SET OF LIGHT, unbelievable, who would have thought a set of lights would stop accidents? maybe it was einstein
but there u have it

You are too young to remember, but as recently as the 1980s, Israel was a "Developing" nation. Inflation was upwards of 35% - and that was an improvement over the hyperinflation of the '60s and '70s. On the first of my trips, one kid lost like $100+ when he exchanged about $500 into shekels at the beginning of the tour, which lasted 2 months.

Israel is now an Industrialized, 1st world regional power, the only yellow (developed) dot in the sea of purple (3rd World) Middle East in my Economics textbook map. Israel's unemployment figures do not seem to be worse than those in some European nations, its debt is no bigger than many other nations' debts. Its human capital is still alive and well, and still produces benefits for humanity as a whole. I think it's way too early - and uncalled for - to say the Kaddish, certainly on economic grounds!

As far as the politics is concerned... how should I put it without offense... but whether or when negotiations are to ensue, and with whom, is NOT something we in the Diaspora can decide for the Israelis! Our job is, very simply, to do all in our power to assure that our own governments do not exercize undue pressure on Israel to do things to its detriment. What makes you think that Israelis are incapable of thinking through and defending themselves without our carping?

And lastly: whenever we indulge in the doom and gloom prophesy, we are playing right into the hands of her enemies, and against the interests of Israel! First, by giving ammunition to her enemies in the guise of "concern" - vultures and hyenas only attack the dying and the dead; but also by undermining the Israelis' self-confidence and will!

Above everything else, we must STOP doing that!

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke
What makes you think that Israelis are incapable of thinking through and defending themselves without our carping?


The fact that they think they can give land that isn't theirs to give.

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
The fact that they think they can give land that isn't theirs to give.

And what makes you think that it's yours to keep?

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by elke
And what makes you think that it's yours to keep?

It is not "mine to keep". It is the Jewish Peoples to keep. Why? Heres a couple basic reasons. One, the commonly given answer - it is our religious duty to hold, maintain and defend out Holy Land. The second reason is that the Jewish people is already sovreign over Our Land. We have no reason to give it - whether you believe in G-d or not.

[richcrassus]

Ok, so releasing pal terrorists from israeli jails (from american pressure) in some psychopathic way to appease the pal leadership will work to stop attacks on israel will it?
u people are insane

[richcrassus]

The reason israel is doing is cos its being pressred by its idiotic 'friend' the usa, which if it was in the same situation would expel the pals in a few days.
And 2 is cos israel knows it can re arrest the prisoners any day anyway.
Though they wont be able to do that if they blow themselves up will they, unless they wanna arrest a piece of flesh.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by richcrassus
The reason israel is doing is cos its being pressred by its idiotic 'friend' the usa, which if it was in the same situation would expel the pals in a few days.
And 2 is cos israel knows it can re arrest the prisoners any day anyway.
Though they wont be able to do that if they blow themselves up will they, unless they wanna arrest a piece of flesh.

Brother, you need to take the stems and seeds out of whatever you're smoking because it's messing up your brains....

[richcrassus]

Ok so what i worte isnt true? so why dont u tell me why israel under americas pressure is releasing pal criminals onto the streets to re offend?
Or are u one of these left wing folk who recken if u release them and tell them nicely not to incite their own people and tell them nicely please dont do anything wrong whe we release u , than they wont??
i think your smoking somethin if u agree freeing folk like that is a step foreward in accieving peace.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Brother, you need to take the stems and seeds out of whatever you're smoking because it's messing up your brains....

That is TYTE! :cool: :D :p

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by richcrassus
Ok so what i worte isnt true? so why dont u tell me why israel under americas pressure is releasing pal criminals onto the streets to re offend?
Or are u one of these left wing folk who recken if u release them and tell them nicely not to incite their own people and tell them nicely please dont do anything wrong whe we release u , than they wont??
i think your smoking somethin if u agree freeing folk like that is a step foreward in accieving peace.

No! Absolutely not true, and you know that. You're just throwing out some wild claim about "idiotic" America, because it's the most convenient target. How do you "know", and be very, very precise with your incontrovertable evidence because you will be called to task about every aspect of it, that they're being released because of American pressure?

In the mean time, put the pipe down for a while.....

[Adversary2Arabs]

Israel wouldn't be doing it if the US wasn't pressuring them. I think he is correct (richcrassus). sorry :)

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Israel wouldn't be doing it if the US wasn't pressuring them. I think he is correct (richcrassus). sorry :)

I still disagree and want to see the evidence. I can't, for the life of me, see the US pressuring Israel to release the very types that we are scouring the planet looking for, so we can lock them up ourselves. I will be very shocked, shocked I tell you, and very unhappy, if it is true; which I still doubt. Show me the stigmata....

[Adversary2Arabs]

All I can say is Israel did release Arabs held for terrorist related actions and other such crimes until Bush said ti would be a goodwill gesture. Thats all I can say. I mean, if I was Sharon trying to make myself look good so it didn't look like I was going to be responsible for the failure of the Roadmap and made it seem like I could do all in my power for it then Ide do the same.) If these people who say it IS just show are correct, then I believe Sharon will offered it all at extremly high costs. The Arabs will fail on their part, Israel will go to extreme measures and hopefully expel all Arabs once and for all after this final trial to see how civilized the Arabs can become, which as we can see by the barbaric acts daily perpetrated on westerners, they are the farthest thing from civilized.

[elke]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
It is not "mine to keep". It is the Jewish Peoples to keep. Why? Heres a couple basic reasons. One, the commonly given answer - it is our religious duty to hold, maintain and defend out Holy Land. The second reason is that the Jewish people is already sovreign over Our Land. We have no reason to give it - whether you believe in G-d or not.

But the Israelis are Jewish too, which means that it is theirs as well - again, regardless of whether or not you believe in G-d. Considering the fact that it is theirs, if they believe that they will derive more benefit out of giving it away, it is their decision to make.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
All I can say is Israel did release Arabs held for terrorist related actions and other such crimes until Bush said ti would be a goodwill gesture. Thats all I can say. I mean, if I was Sharon trying to make myself look good so it didn't look like I was going to be responsible for the failure of the Roadmap and made it seem like I could do all in my power for it then Ide do the same.) If these people who say it IS just show are correct, then I believe Sharon will offered it all at extremly high costs. The Arabs will fail on their part, Israel will go to extreme measures and hopefully expel all Arabs once and for all after this final trial to see how civilized the Arabs can become, which as we can see by the barbaric acts daily perpetrated on westerners, they are the farthest thing from civilized.

I agree that if releasing these as$hole$ (and I mean that in the most loving, supportive way) is a goodwill gesture, it's a damned risky one, but I for one certainly wouldn't gamble on it if I were in Sharon's shoes, regardless of the way it made me look. I would have to find another way. I see no good coming of releasing them; only more death. It's simply too high a price to pay to illustrate a point.

[Adversary2Arabs]

The day Israelis are uninimous about giving the Land, I will support it. So just take my first response. Never.

And if they ever did, the phrase "Never again" will change to "Right now".

[rferry]

Why not move to Israel?
That way you can forever be that one lone extremist voice against peace. You could live up to your quest to kill Palestinians too.

[Adversary2Arabs]

I have no quest for killing anyone, I said if I had the opportunity to save all Jews by killing everyone else I would. Not because I hate anyone but because I love Jews. Yes it's that simple.

Even a like yourself I wouldn't want to die.

Furthermore, I am far from an extremist. You are much more of an extremist, except for the left. You obviously don't care about Israel, Jews as a people nor do you care to see Israel standing in 10 years.

So, now, I'm tired of your worthless responses and I'm putting you on ignore.

[wellofvow]

This thread has taken extremely bizarre twists.

Johnny Yuma: what did you mean, at the beginning of the thread, by “why burn bridges when you can set the whole river on fire”? Is this some military-type reference? Please pardon my ignorance and explain what it means.

As for putting “the religious” in charge of Israel, Iranian-style, first I thought the writer was being sarcastic, and then was appalled to see that you weren’t. Your ignorance of the religious element in Israel is abysmal. Let me fill you in, just a bit, as to what this would mean on a day-to-day basis:

Shas, which you mentioned, proved itself to be the most corrupt political party in Israel’s history. Their political shining light, Arieh De’eri, was imprisoned for fraud, among other felonies. An “Ashkenazi” ultra-ultra-religious group, the Naturei Karta, claim that there can be no “Jewish State” until the Messiah comes, and they actively work against Israel. Some of these conferred with Arafat in an effort to assist in destroying the Jewish State. Would you like them in charge? They do not WANT Israel, and they are VERY “religious”, and “Iranian-style” in their own view.

Rabbinical courts in Israel regularly force physically abused wives to return to their husbands, call it “shlom bayit”, and shrug when the woman is murdered. Not their fault, y’know.

Besides, the religious in Israel see nothing wrong when their young men, in between Shacharit and Mincha on Shabbat, go out to public roads and stone cars “violating” the Sabbath. If they cause a fatal accident……are they any better than Palestinians firing on cars? Dead is dead.

Further, I don’t particularly feel like being unable to wear slacks or a short-sleeved or even sleeveless blouse when I feel like it.

There is so much more to Jewish law running Israel than returning the West Bank or not. Besides, the religious are a tiny minority, so putting them “in charge” would hardly be democratic, would it?

No, the West Bank does not “belong” to the Palestinians, because Jordan lost it in a war. In fact, in didn’t “belong” to Jordan either. It was, and still is, “disputed” territory. The whole argument about “occupied” is Arab propaganda. But it does not “belong” to Israel, either, really.

What was “Jewish law” a thousand years ago has no relevance in Israel today. Even the religious courts do not recognize the ancient right of a Jewish man to have several wives. When the Yemenites came to Israel with several wives, they were allowed to stay a family, but multiple marriages were not allowed to take place. Women are no longer stoned to death for adultery, either. Therefore, I feel that basing Israel’s “right” to Judea and Shomron on what was “Israel” two thousand years ago is also irrelevant.

Most Israelis would be as revolted as I was by the suggestion about Israeli Arabs. Israeli Arabs are Israelis. Period. An Israeli Arab has been a family friend for 25 years. One of my daughter’s university study partners was an Israeli Arab. His brother wants to join the Israeli army, and will be accepted. Why not? He is an Israeli.

Most Israelis are pretty disgusted about the release of Palestinian prisoners. There was a huge outcry when prisoners who were convicted murderers (“blood on their hands”) were released. In today’s Jerusalem Post, Mofaz was quoted as saying that there would be no more prisoner release until the PA stopped playing games about terror. Personally, I think it’s about time. This is about the only point that I seem to agree with some of you about.

I thank elka for her suggestion. Let Israelis decide about our country. I don’t agree with all, or lately, even most, of my government’s decisions, but the majority elected it, and that’s what democracy is about. The majority voted that catastrophe Barak in, and was quick enough to vote him out what he proved to be such a complete idiot.

[Johnny Yuma]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wellofvow
[B]This thread has taken extremely bizarre twists.

Retracted...

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I assume you understand the term "burning bridges"? If not, it means to severe a relationship to such a degree as to be irreparable; like putting someone on your ignore list and telling them you have done so. More than likely, you're going to burn a bridge.


You talking about me? In my case, I wanted to sever it, burn it, and totally destroy all of it. No, I never want to hear what that ignoramus thinks, says or otherwise does. He/she/it can go to hell for all I care.

[rferry]

"Go to hell."

[Johnny Yuma]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs


Retracted..

[Adversary2Arabs]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I wasn't talking about you. I've had her on my ignore list for a while now. I only took her off long enough to answer her question; having seen my name mentioned in a search.

Her as in rferry?

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
Her as in rferry?

Retracted..

[MichaelC]

Personally, I wish the administration of this board would abolish the "ignore function". It serves a very poor purpose.

[wellofvow]

Of course I understand what “burning bridges behind you” means, I honestly did not understand “setting the whole river on fire”. Johnny Yuma just wrote it without giving any kind of context – in reference to what. Israel giving back land? Palestinians doing something? Since “burning bridges” IS originally a military phrase, like “scorched earth”, I thought that the other was also. I am bewildered by the rather viciously sarcastic response, and STILL do not know with reference to what. Since this person made a point that I have been on his “ignore” for a long time, I’ll have to live with not knowing. I’ve survived worse, and I am not exactly devastated by one person on this planet not being interested in my opinions.

As far as Johnny Yuma’s personal hostility towards me, as he posted in the open forum, well, I don’t think that a discussion forum is a popularity contest. He finds my posts offensive for some reason, and I don’t expect to have a warm fuzzy online bonding with all the people in the forum. I have a cousin in the States who hasn't emailed me for years because he got it in his head somehow that I insulted his daughter.

I find it curious, though, that Johnny Yuma went on and on how his nerves cannot stand that I “have a chip on my shoulder”.

I thought that a place like “Israel Forum” would be interested in hearing what one Israeli who was born in America and moved to Israel as an adult feels about various issues brought up in the forum. For me, it has been extremely interesting to see how others feel about these issues.

I thought that I have always made it clear that I write for myself only, as does everyone else. Yes, there ARE occasions when I write “most Israelis”, but, after all, I DO live in Israel and DO interact with neighbors, people with whom I work, and have dozens of daily encounters. It is not only what I read in papers, or what my family or friends in Israel report. It is MY life and experiences, and Israel IS a very different culture. When someone writes something that I feel is way off, especially about how **I feel** things in Israel really are, then I am tempted to post and input.

The business about turning Israel into an Iranian-style theocracy was just outrageous personally. I would certainly NOT expect most people in the Forum to know the history or background of the not-so-quiet civil war, that has taken place in Israel since before the State was declared, between the Orthodox and the secular (which, for the religious Orthodox in Israel, is everyone who is not “as Orthodox” as they are).

Reform synagogues have been torched by Orthodox vandals. Conservative rabbis are not allowed to perform marriages. The religious already control many very personal aspects of our lives, for example, what a Jewish woman MUST do before she can be married, and when a Jew MUST be buried. Both of these examples are hot buttons for me, but then, I admit to zero tolerance for inflexible intolerance.

If others on this Forum feel that my input as a long-time American-in-Israel is abrasive, and that I do write with a chip on my shoulder, I would like to hear this. If there is nobody in the Forum interested in my input, I will devote my spare time to other things, no problem. I still enjoy learning from others, and if nobody minds, I will drop in to look at what people are discussing.

I am very sincere in this. I am curious as to how others think, and have no ax to grind. I am not running for office. I am NOT in a huff or hissy-fit, rather, I do NOT want to offend any majority of people in this forum.

Looking forward to replies.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by wellofvow
Of course I understand what “burning bridges behind you” means, I honestly did not understand “setting the whole river on fire”. Johnny Yuma just wrote it without giving any kind of context – in reference to what. Israel giving back land? Palestinians doing something? Since “burning bridges” IS originally a military phrase, like “scorched earth”, I thought that the other was also. I am bewildered by the rather viciously sarcastic response, and STILL do not know with reference to what. Since this person made a point that I have been on his “ignore” for a long time, I’ll have to live with not knowing. I’ve survived worse, and I am not exactly devastated by one person on this planet not being interested in my opinions.

As far as Johnny Yuma’s personal hostility towards me, as he posted in the open forum, well, I don’t think that a discussion forum is a popularity contest. He finds my posts offensive for some reason, and I don’t expect to have a warm fuzzy online bonding with all the people in the forum. I have a cousin in the States who hasn't emailed me for years because he got it in his head somehow that I insulted his daughter.

I find it curious, though, that Johnny Yuma went on and on how his nerves cannot stand that I “have a chip on my shoulder”.

I thought that a place like “Israel Forum” would be interested in hearing what one Israeli who was born in America and moved to Israel as an adult feels about various issues brought up in the forum. For me, it has been extremely interesting to see how others feel about these issues.

I thought that I have always made it clear that I write for myself only, as does everyone else. Yes, there ARE occasions when I write “most Israelis”, but, after all, I DO live in Israel and DO interact with neighbors, people with whom I work, and have dozens of daily encounters. It is not only what I read in papers, or what my family or friends in Israel report. It is MY life and experiences, and Israel IS a very different culture. When someone writes something that I feel is way off, especially about how **I feel** things in Israel really are, then I am tempted to post and input.

The business about turning Israel into an Iranian-style theocracy was just outrageous personally. I would certainly NOT expect most people in the Forum to know the history or background of the not-so-quiet civil war, that has taken place in Israel since before the State was declared, between the Orthodox and the secular (which, for the religious Orthodox in Israel, is everyone who is not “as Orthodox” as they are).

Reform synagogues have been torched by Orthodox vandals. Conservative rabbis are not allowed to perform marriages. The religious already control many very personal aspects of our lives, for example, what a Jewish woman MUST do before she can be married, and when a Jew MUST be buried. Both of these examples are hot buttons for me, but then, I admit to zero tolerance for inflexible intolerance.

If others on this Forum feel that my input as a long-time American-in-Israel is abrasive, and that I do write with a chip on my shoulder, I would like to hear this. If there is nobody in the Forum interested in my input, I will devote my spare time to other things, no problem. I still enjoy learning from others, and if nobody minds, I will drop in to look at what people are discussing.

I am very sincere in this. I am curious as to how others think, and have no ax to grind. I am not running for office. I am NOT in a huff or hissy-fit, rather, I do NOT want to offend any majority of people in this forum.

Looking forward to replies.

I apologize . Period. What I said earlier was cold and callous.

[MichaelC]

Contributions from Israelis are extremely important to this board and the depth of Wellofvow's observations has always provided insight.

I hope she never gets it in her head that people are not interested in her views based solely on the opinion of one person.

You go girl.

[Kapiti]

wellofvow you say. "If there is nobody in the Forum interested in my input, I will devote my spare time to other things, no problem."

Let me clearly state that your opinions and background make your comments more than welcome.

What I like best is that you seem to defy any clear "labelling" Many if not most of the forum posters to this forum are right wingers who will call any posters to the left of far right "anti-semetic" or otherwise go off on some irrelevant tirade.

As an Israeli now you cannot be labelled "anti-semetic" or "irrelevant" so easily.

I think that more than just this you serve as a reminder to the rest of the world (or at least the very small percentage of the rest of the world which reads this forum) that Israel comprises many people far more tolerant and flexibile than the majority of those who frequent this forum.

If this forum is to have a goal of educating those who seek better knowledge and some new or lateral thinking towards solutions for the worlds most serious trouble region, then your contribution is vital.

Wear the bile of the intolerant on this forum as a badge of your own fair-mindedness.

[Johnny Yuma]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny Yuma

Retracted.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by wellofvow
The business about turning Israel into an Iranian-style theocracy was just outrageous personally. I would certainly NOT expect most people in the Forum to know the history or background of the not-so-quiet civil war, that has taken place in Israel since before the State was declared, between the Orthodox and the secular (which, for the religious Orthodox in Israel, is everyone who is not “as Orthodox” as they are).




Ultra Orthodox Jews are individuals that would create a disaster (economic and by imposing their will on the rest of the population)) if they were ever in a position to form a government in Israel. On the other hand they keep the Jewishness in Jewishness (whatever that means) by entrenching Judaism into society.

I know that I would be royally PO if I had my car pelted with rocks for driving on the Shabbat and I’m fairly certain that a fight would ensue. I’m an extremely tolerant individual and I demand the same from my fellow citizens.

I haven’t met every Orthodox Jew (I’m a non-believer) in the world but the ones that have crossed my path have been friendly and I consider them my friends. To each their own!

Believe what you want to believe, live how you want to live, just don’t harm those that I care for, that’s where I draw the line in the sand and I’m willing to die for my beliefs.

Keep on trucking wellofvow.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I apologize . Period. What I said earlier was cold and callous.

To Johnny Yuma from wellofvow: Your apology astounded me. There was absolutely no need to apologize for, ?what?, having a point of view??? Hey, you don't like my point of view, that's fine - just, for the sake of fairness, it would be nice, that's all, if you would let me know what it is about my viewpoint that you disagree with. That's all that I expected from a discussion forum, after all.

And I do NOT consider myself a "nice person". I am blunt and pretty intolerant of deliberate stupidity, putting words into my mouth, and various other hot buttons. I have expectations of others that are probably too high. Actually, I am a weird hybrid of American-Israeli. I will NEVER be "politically correct", yet I will also NEVER say my government always makes the right decision.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by wellofvow
If others on this Forum feel that my input as a long-time American-in-Israel is abrasive, and that I do write with a chip on my shoulder, I would like to hear this. If there is nobody in the Forum interested in my input, I will devote my spare time to other things, no problem. I still enjoy learning from others, and if nobody minds, I will drop in to look at what people are discussing.

I am very sincere in this. I am curious as to how others think, and have no ax to grind. I am not running for office. I am NOT in a huff or hissy-fit, rather, I do NOT want to offend any majority of people in this forum.

Looking forward to replies.

Wellofvow, I find you one of the most sober and outspoken people here. I highly appreciate your opinion.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Kapiti

What I like best is that you seem to defy any clear "labelling" Many if not most of the forum posters to this forum are right wingers who will call any posters to the left of far right "anti-semetic" or otherwise go off on some irrelevant tirade.

As an Israeli now you cannot be labelled "anti-semetic" or "irrelevant" so easily.

I think that more than just this you serve as a reminder to the rest of the world (or at least the very small percentage of the rest of the world which reads this forum) that Israel comprises many people far more tolerant and flexibile than the majority of those who frequent this forum.


I am pretty embarrassed. I was NOT fishing for compliments, just wanted to know if I was being abrasive. I know many people with whom I grew up in a Labor Zionist Youth Movement with a heavy accent on moving to Israel. These people who, for various reasons, did NOT come to Israel, VERY often feel that I (and all Israelis, as a matter of fact) have a chip on the shoulder, because they were brainwashed by our Youth Movement to feel that they are somehow "inferior" or cowards by not moving here. This makes them feel guilty, and they lash out at me for having a chip on my shoulder. Now this, of course, is not MY problem, but THEIRS. I seriously doubt if Johnny Yuma was in my Youth Movement, so if HE feels that I project some kind of attitude of superiority just because I chose to come to Israel, it obviously stems from something else, and I want to know about it.

I detest "labelling". It is simply another name for stereotyping.

And trying to "label" an Israeli is trying to catch a particular grain of sand in a sandstorm. Especially when it comes to politics. I used to vote with the Labor Party, until it was kidnapped by the extreme liberals. One of my kids thinks I'm a right-winger, but has trouble with this because of my friendship with Riad and Khalid, and I think that keeping hold of all of Gaza and the West Bank is madness. I also think that giving it ALL to the "Palestinians" is even worse madness.

Oh, and I think that if you yourself go in for labelling, you would be CORRECT calling me an "anti-semite". I detest what the religious have done to Israel. I detest the Orthodox attitude that Conservative and Reform Jews are not Jews. If one of my religious neighbors would DARE to rebuke me for washing my car on Shabbat, I would really light into her. And I get really PO'd when one of the Sephardi check-out women at the local supermarket talks to me rudely like I'm her kid or a bum. Then I think to myself "Stupid Sephardi b----". And you don't really want to hear what I say to myself about the spoiled little Jewish bimbos in the States who rush out to participate in pro-Arab, anti-Israel, anti-Semitic protests. Oh, I'm plenty "anti-Semitic".

I often wonder about the extreme right-wing opinions of many on this forum. It saddens me and makes me frankly nervous. These opinions are not based on the belief-system of the Zionist founders of the State, which is my personal gold standard. On the other hand, I can understand very well the fear of a fifth column. I just wish that Americans would show a little more fear for the fifth column in America! But on the other hand (have I run out yet?), there are just too many Arab doctors and nurses, mostly Bedouin, so it's a bit different, with whom I studied recently.

And my kids also think that I'm irrelevant because I quaintly believe that if you sign a paper obliging yourself to certain things, you should not, within the same week, publicly announce that you have no intention of doing, would NEVER even think about doing, what you just signed on to do. BUT the other side must not only keep their obligations, every one of them, but also make "concessions", "gestures", and "confidence-builders" that were never in ANY signed agreement. My kids, as native-born Israelis, think I am being unrealistic in this expectation. Many of their generation agree with them.

Israel's HUGE and fundamental PR mistake has always been that what the Arabs and Palestinians put out on the propaganda machine is SO ridiculous (in OUR eyes) that nobody could POSSIBLY believe it. So, Israel never refutes or rebuts it, and the lie becomes accepted as truth for lack of rebuttal.

This drives me nuts. Native-born Israelis just don't get it. They will NEVER understand the Americans, and the Americans will never understand Israelis, since we do not defend ourselves on the open market. Many call it "arrogance", but I think that this is unkind and borderline anti-Semitic. It is much closer to being absurdly naive, bordering on simple-minded.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
On the other hand they keep the Jewishness in Jewishness (whatever that means) by entrenching Judaism into society.

I know that I would be royally PO if I had my car pelted with rocks for driving on the Shabbat and I’m fairly certain that a fight would ensue. I’m an extremely tolerant individual and I demand the same from my fellow citizens.

I haven’t met every Orthodox Jew (I’m a non-believer) in the world but the ones that have crossed my path have been friendly and I consider them my friends. To each their own!

Believe what you want to believe, live how you want to live, just don’t harm those that I care for, that’s where I draw the line in the sand and I’m willing to die for my beliefs.



Hi L@mplighter. I'm sure you know all the jokes beginning or ending with "It's hard to be a Jew." You really have to live here as a committed, but non-Orthodox Jew in order to feel as frustrated as thousands of Israelis do. The frustration stems from the scorn, hatred, and sometimes violence shown people like me by the Orthodox.

I have a neighbor, a widow in her upper sixties, living alone. She was born in Hungary, escaped the Nazis for South America, and made her way to Israel soon after 1948. She is pretty openly anti-Orthodox in her views, but never vandalistic or violent. Another neighbor, since passed away, was a Canadian Jew, who became "religious" after moving to Israel about 20 years ago after his daughter came here as very religious. The widow had a dog who was her only companion. The Canadian so despised the widow for her outspoken anti-Orthoxism that not only did HE throw rocks at the dog, but he encouraged his grandchildren to throw rocks at the dog **when the dog was enclosed behind a gate on the widow's property**.

Throwing rocks at people driving their cars on Shabbat is, of course, itself a violation of Shabbat. However, the Orthodox ALWAYS find a religious loophole to "justify" breaking Jewish Law when THEY want to for their own purposes.

I am SURE that this is NOT what you meant by "keeping the Jewishness in Jewishness by entrenching it into society"!!HOWEVER, this is what happens on the ground, in day-to-day reality. It is the Orthodox intransigence and the Orthodox manipulation of religious laws, Halacha, and just tradition that has polarized Israeli society.

In the States, all the Orthodox I met and knew (actually we ourselves were considered Orthodox) were fine people. In Israel, some do remain tolerant, but others turn into my vicious neighbor.

A friend's daughter got married a few years ago. They are very active in their Conservative synagogue. Their rabbi is not allowed to marry them in Israel and have the marriage recognized by the State. Also, the girl was unwilling to be forced to go to the mikva (you have to show the Orthodox rabbi who marries you a certificate proving that you went!). So, after making certain arrangements, the couple flew to Cyprus for a few hours, were married in a civil ceremony in the Nicosia Town Hall, and flew back. Israel recognizes civil marriages performed abroad (but not performed in Israel). Then, they had a very Jewish wedding, chuppa, Seven Blessings, Ktuba, everything, but just conducted by their Conservative rabbi.

There are many like them. Both bride and groom are Jewish, but are not Orthodox and do not like being forced to do things that may be considered vital to a proper Jewish wedding, but which is not vital for THEM.

What gets me is the hypocrisy. I am Jewish, my husband was Jewish. When we were married, we lived on a non-religious kibbutz during a strong Labor government. The rabbinate office for our kibbutz was in a tiny nearby town. At THAT time, they were so "relieved" that a kibbutz couple asked their rabbi to perform a marriage, that they did NOT demand the mikva certificate from me (I got the willies of eventhinking about going to a mikva). Nine years later, my brother got married on the same kibbutz, same rabbinate married them, BUT there was a Likud government by then, the religious were much more powerful, and my sister-in-law DID have to go to the mikva.

[Adversary2Arabs]

I'll try to do this withotu burning any bridges.

This forum does not effect or change anyone opinions, as I have seen. It may still happen, but not often enough. People are stuck on their opinions (I am included) and don't want to change. Time is too important to be wasting here not accomplishing a single thing. This entire forum is about back and forth between opposing views. I guess that it was a forum should be and was invented for.

I also have come to find out through this forum that computers are the worst way of communication between people. Much of what I have said has been misinterpreted, twisted and perveted. I can only assume what has happened with other's words.

To everyone who has remained logical since I have been here thanks. Everyone else, whatever. It's the sam old . I'm too tired of this all to continue debating on a topic that cannot be debated on the internet, let alone its challenges in the "real world" while all the utterly ignorant people refuse to look at the facts.


Unless something comes over me and I am desperate to get involved in this forum again, I won't be coming back. But there is still that ever-so-small chance.

*Whether I didn't like you or I loved you, goodbye, thanks for all the fun.*

[Communication]

Originally posted by wellofvow

Oh, and I think that if you yourself go in for labelling, you would be CORRECT calling me an "anti-semite". I detest what the religious have done to Israel. I detest the Orthodox attitude that Conservative and Reform Jews are not Jews. If one of my religious neighbors would DARE to rebuke me for washing my car on Shabbat, I would really light into her. And I get really PO'd when one of the Sephardi check-out women at the local supermarket talks to me rudely like I'm her kid or a bum. Then I think to myself "Stupid Sephardi b----". And you don't really want to hear what I say to myself about the spoiled little Jewish bimbos in the States who rush out to participate in pro-Arab, anti-Israel, anti-Semitic protests. Oh, I'm plenty "anti-Semitic".

I often wonder about the extreme right-wing opinions of many on this forum. It saddens me and makes me frankly nervous. These opinions are not based on the belief-system of the Zionist founders of the State, which is my personal gold standard.

Hello wellofvow!

Thank you for your posts! My mom was the one who took us to shul when we were growing up. You could proabbly best describe my father as a religious zionist, and yet he can't stand to be around other Jews, secular, religious or otherwise. He's always disappointed with the real thing so he'd rather spend his time with Moses, Aron and Hillel in his study.

What did you mean by the original Zionist founders as your gold standard? Which ones?

[Communication]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I'll try to do this withotu burning any bridges.

This forum does not effect or change anyone opinions, as I have seen. It may still happen, but not often enough. People are stuck on their opinions (I am included) and don't want to change. Time is too important to be wasting here not accomplishing a single thing. This entire forum is about back and forth between opposing views. I guess that it was a forum should be and was invented for.

I also have come to find out through this forum that computers are the worst way of communication between people. Much of what I have said has been misinterpreted, twisted and perveted. I can only assume what has happened with other's words.

To everyone who has remained logical since I have been here thanks. Everyone else, whatever. It's the sam old . I'm too tired of this all to continue debating on a topic that cannot be debated on the internet, let alone its challenges in the "real world" while all the utterly ignorant people refuse to look at the facts.


Unless something comes over me and I am desperate to get involved in this forum again, I won't be coming back. But there is still that ever-so-small chance.

*Whether I didn't like you or I loved you, goodbye, thanks for all the fun.*

Until then, take care! I give you credit for being concerned with what's going on in both Israel and the Diaspora and for your willingness to get involved in these debates with us in the first place. :)

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I'll try to do this withotu burning any bridges.

This forum does not effect or change anyone opinions, as I have seen. It may still happen, but not often enough. People are stuck on their opinions (I am included) and don't want to change. Time is too important to be wasting here not accomplishing a single thing. This entire forum is about back and forth between opposing views. I guess that it was a forum should be and was invented for.

I also have come to find out through this forum that computers are the worst way of communication between people. Much of what I have said has been misinterpreted, twisted and perveted. I can only assume what has happened with other's words.

To everyone who has remained logical since I have been here thanks. Everyone else, whatever. It's the sam old . I'm too tired of this all to continue debating on a topic that cannot be debated on the internet, let alone its challenges in the "real world" while all the utterly ignorant people refuse to look at the facts.


Unless something comes over me and I am desperate to get involved in this forum again, I won't be coming back. But there is still that ever-so-small chance.

*Whether I didn't like you or I loved you, goodbye, thanks for all the fun.*

Well I think that there are far more readers of this forum versus posters and there’s one hell of a lot information in here. I wouldn’t be so certain that whatever is posted here doesn’t influence opinion and I know for a fact that I’ve been enlightened in this forum.

One post that I made last year gets a lot of traffic because practically every time (this might be exaggerated) that I check who’s online there’s some guest looking at it. I suppose that they find it using a search engine like google, quite frankly I find it surprising.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
I'll try to do this withotu burning any bridges.

This forum does not effect or change anyone opinions, as I have seen. It may still happen, but not often enough. People are stuck on their opinions (I am included) and don't want to change. Time is too important to be wasting here not accomplishing a single thing. This entire forum is about back and forth between opposing views. I guess that it was a forum should be and was invented for.

I also have come to find out through this forum that computers are the worst way of communication between people. Much of what I have said has been misinterpreted, twisted and perveted. I can only assume what has happened with other's words.

To everyone who has remained logical since I have been here thanks. Everyone else, whatever. It's the sam old . I'm too tired of this all to continue debating on a topic that cannot be debated on the internet, let alone its challenges in the "real world" while all the utterly ignorant people refuse to look at the facts.


Unless something comes over me and I am desperate to get involved in this forum again, I won't be coming back. But there is still that ever-so-small chance.

*Whether I didn't like you or I loved you, goodbye, thanks for all the fun.*


Debate is healthy for democracy. The words of one may eventually change the mindset of the many. Change does not come easy. It is too often a slow process but change learned under the proper conditions continues whereas change made without careful study is often lost without significant inroads.

If Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers had stopped because the challenge was too great then history would be quite different today.

History is replete with the voice of a few against the voice of many. You may not change the opinion of many on this forum but if you change a few, then you will have succeeded. That is the reason your voice is important.

We Jews too often been silent on some issues. All Jewish voices should be heard where Jewish issues are concerned.

[Donna]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Well I think that there are far more readers of this forum versus posters and there’s one hell of a lot information in here. I wouldn’t be so certain that whatever is posted here doesn’t influence opinion and I know for a fact that I’ve been enlightened in this forum.

One post that I made last year gets a lot of traffic because practically every time (this might be exaggerated) that I check who’s online there’s some guest looking at it. I suppose that they find it using a search engine like google, quite frankly I find it surprising.

I can be at one with that because that's what I do most, read and think. There's just tons of good stuff here for me to read. Most of the time, I find my posts consist of nothing more than "Yeah" or "What he said!" so I just don't hit post. Hope my hovering doesn't tick anyone off. I just have a lot to learn and this is one good place to do it.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Well I think that there are far more readers of this forum versus posters and there’s one hell of a lot information in here. I wouldn’t be so certain that whatever is posted here doesn’t influence opinion and I know for a fact that I’ve been enlightened in this forum.

One post that I made last year gets a lot of traffic because practically every time (this might be exaggerated) that I check who’s online there’s some guest looking at it. I suppose that they find it using a search engine like google, quite frankly I find it surprising.

You made some very good points. Just because someone does not respond to a post does not mean the post itself was not informative or instrumental to the thought process of readers. Whereas a poster may receive a couple of posts that differ in opinion from the poster's opinion, the original post may have influenced several readers to really think about the issue.

I did a google search several months ago and was quite surprised to find a link to a post from this forum. Which indicates that one's opinion has a more far-reaching effect than one is aware.

[Revkha]

Originally posted by Donna
I can be at one with that because that's what I do most, read and think. There's just tons of good stuff here for me to read. Most of the time, I find my posts consist of nothing more than "Yeah" or "What he said!" so I just don't hit post. Hope my hovering doesn't tick anyone off. I just have a lot to learn and this is one good place to do it.

Sometimes the most important responses/messages consists of the fewest words.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Revkha
Sometimes the most important responses/messages consists of the fewest words.
I too have brought up a Forum webpage in the opening slot at Google. I do not really know how much attention must be paid to an item to cause it to come up on the front page of a google search, but I imagine that it must indicate a great deal of interest.

My bet is that Mediocrates knows about this sort of thing.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by MichaelC
I too have brought up a Forum webpage in the opening slot at Google. I do not really know how much attention must be paid to an item to cause it to come up on the front page of a google search, but I imagine that it must indicate a great deal of interest.

My bet is that Mediocrates knows about this sort of thing.

It cost's money you pay for it.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It cost's money you pay for it.
You're saying that if I pay google, my "choice" goes to number one irregardless as to who may or may not have an interest?

That is definitely news to me. I have been under the impression that interest in a topic drives the process though I have heard that there are other factors that influence ranking.

[L@mplighterM]

One upon a time I thought along the lines that you did but unless I’m mistaken you can pay money to have your company name come up in a google search. To tell you the truth, I thought that you were talking about the little blue box in the upper right hand corner.

I posted an article about Israeli Arab porn last year and if you type in Israeli Arab porn and do a search in google the first two URL’s link to Israel Forum.

Sometimes when I check to see who’s online there’ll be 2 or 3 guests looking at the article. I guess there are many individuals out there that are interested in porn.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Communication
Hello wellofvow!

What did you mean by the original Zionist founders as your gold standard? Which ones?

Sorry for throwing that in - sometimes I get carried away when I post, and just write stream-of-consciousness. I forget that people can't access my thoughts (thank G-d!).

I guess I meant those who wrote the Declaration of Statehood in 1948, where Israel was proposed to be the National Homeland for all Jews, and a Jewish State, but recognizing that other nationalities and religions are welcome to live in Israel, be citizens, and have equal rights.

From some posts on the forum, I am struck by much misunderstanding about very basic facts concerning Israel. Israeli Arabs are full citizens. Arabs have, I think, representatives of 3 different political parties sitting in the Knesset. One of these representatives is particularly anarchistic, but the Supreme Court let him through, which I personally think is a mistake, but Israel has made so many, that it's just another one.

I am VERY strongly opposed to forced population transfer. I was very traumatized many years ago when Yamit was "evacuated" after Sinai was given back to the Egyptians through the Anwar Sadat-Menachem Begin-Jimmy Carter peace deal. We had friends living there whom we had visited a couple of times, but I am pretty sure that they were not among the protester we saw being carried off by the soldiers of the IDF. But still, for me, watching on TV Jews reacting with violence toward other Jews was anathema, beyond horrible.

So, I am having a lot of problems with the forcible transfer of Jews out of Gaza and the West Bank, BECAUSE I think that they SHOULD leave, but again, the idea of FORCING them really, really bothers me after the Yamit trauma.

AND, because of my belief in the gold standard of the Declaration that Jews and Arabs live together in Israel, as "Israeli-Jews" and "Israeli-Arabs", I am also VERY opposed to forcibly transferring Israeli-Arabs out of Israel. Just a few years ago, any Israel - except for the lunatic fringe - would have agreed with me on this point. Sadly, though, as more and more Israeli-Arabs have shown clear fifth-columnist tendencies, more Jewish-Israelis are becoming very scared, and more are leaning toward forcible transfer. This is a tragedy. And who knows? I might be at that point myself tomorrow, next week, next year.

That thought is a pretty bad nightmare.

[Communication]

It's good to have Israelis on here who are willing to share their personal experiences with Americans. I read David Horovitz's "A Little To Close to God" before I went to Israel and I think it helped prepare me, because my very first trip to Israel was during the intifada. My experience was probably quite different from your first time, (in 69?), which was probably an electric time in Israel. Most Israelis didn't want to talk much about what was going on in Israel although there was a tremendous amount of telepathy/body language going on that pretty much conveyed what needed to be known. For the record- across the board, the Americans were much more hardcore about the Israeli-Palestinian conlfict than the Israelis. The Israelis had a hard time expressing just how complex their emotions were about life in Israel and for the Americans, it was all very simple, you see- you just kill the bastards! Afterall, that's what our government would have done.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by MichaelC
You're saying that if I pay google, my "choice" goes to number one irregardless as to who may or may not have an interest?

That is definitely news to me. I have been under the impression that interest in a topic drives the process though I have heard that there are other factors that influence ranking.


I believe I can fly and I also think that the following link will explain how you get to the front of the line, as it develops during the day.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/945761/posts

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I believe I can fly and I also think that the following link will explain how you get to the front of the line, as it develops during the day.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/945761/posts
Thanks for the info, kinda disappointing to learn that. More naivete evaporates!

[Revkha]

Originally posted by MichaelC
You're saying that if I pay google, my "choice" goes to number one irregardless as to who may or may not have an interest?

That is definitely news to me. I have been under the impression that interest in a topic drives the process though I have heard that there are other factors that influence ranking.

Coming from the corporate world I can state categorically that we (my company) want to be the very first link and directly ahead of our major competitor when a potential customer searches google in our category. When a search turns up 600 links, those links on the first couple of pages (primarily the first page) are the most important. No one wants to scroll through 600 links. There are way to ensure that one is #1.

Did anyone read the recent article about google becoming the god of the internet. I don't have the link now but it very interesting. It quoted the number of people searching google at any given minute. It was astounding.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by Revkha
Coming from the corporate world I can state categorically that we (my company) want to be the very first link and directly ahead of our major competitor when a potential customer searches google in our category. When a search turns up 600 links, those links on the first couple of pages (primarily the first page) are the most important. No one wants to scroll through 600 links. There are way to ensure that one is #1.

Did anyone read the recent article about google becoming the god of the internet. I don't have the link now but it very interesting. It quoted the number of people searching google at any given minute. It was astounding.
That Google article is now archived at the New York Times, so you'd have to pay to access it. However I have the article and will be happy to PM or email it to you, should you care to see it again.

I'd reprint it here but it's sort of long, and we've probably beaten the dead horse of this "off topic" subject enough.