Why the Jews?

[yoyo]

Extract:
In the 1930's there were signs in Europe saying, "Jews go to Palestine" (Now there are signs saying, "Jews get out of Palestine.")

-----

Much of the world refers to the Israeli presence in the contested areas adjoining Israel as an "occupation" when in fact it is an attempt on behalf of Israel to protect it’s citizens from the long standing aim of Musrabs, (A contraction I coined for Muslim Arabs) to prevent a Jewish State on what they choose to consider "Holy Muslim Land."

Any objective reading of history, ("The Siege" by Connor Cruise O"Brien is a good example) shows that armed Musrabs have been attacking and killing (while screaming "Ichdad Yahood," meaning "kill the Jews) unarmed Jews in what was then called Palestine since the mid 1800's.

Even though there was no Jewish State until 1948 and no Jewish presence in what is now called the West Bank and Gaza until 1967 these attacks continued sporadically. This makes clear that the current killing is not due to an "occupation."

As long as the armed Musrabs could kill unarmed Jews there was no international outcry. After all, armed people had been killing unarmed and stateless Jews since the Roman conquest. This came to be expected as the way of the world. Unfortunately, many Jews came to accept it.

From the time of the Roman conquest, the statelessness of the Jewish people has been used as another excuse to hate them and attack them.

In the 1930's there were signs in Europe saying, "Jews go to Palestine" (Now there are signs saying, "Jews get out of Palestine.")

Since the time came that Jews could fight back, there has been an unending stream of criticism of them for doing so. Much of the world was upset by the fact that Jews at long last could take up arms and effectively defend themselves. Unfortunately some Jews were also upset by the fact that Jews could now fight back and were in fact doing so.

When, following Musrab opposition and numerous double crosses by western countries the speck of land which is almost 0% of the earth’s surface, and was less than 25% of the area of the British Mandate in 1917 when the Balfour declaration approving a Jewish homeland in the Mandate was issued, Israel was approved by the UN as the Jewish homeland.

Immediately, five Musrab nations tried to destroy Israel. When the Jews weren’t destroyed and in fact started winning, there was a cease fire called. Those cease fire lines established the "pre 1967" borders of Israel. (Those are the borders that some Musrabs’s now say they want.) The Musrabs’s were not satisfied with the pre 1967 borders then, and most indicate that other than as a way station on the road to the destruction of Israel, they won’t be satisfied with them now.

In 1967 the Musrabs again tried to destroy Israel. When once again the Jews were winning, another cease fire was called. The new cease fire lines established what are basically the additional areas the Musrabs now want for a "Palestinian" State.

As could be predicted, in 1973 Egypt, Syria and Jordan in a sneak attack, commenced, another war seeking to destroy Israel. Once again, when Israel was winning, a cease fire was called.

Anwar Sadat, in a move that should win him the title as the greatest con man of all time, with the aid of grinning Jimmy Carter, in return for nothing tangible, got back the land that Israel won in 1973 when they not only avoided destruction but counterattacked.

Israel tried to govern all the land won at a high cost to Israel, as little as possible. (Again see The Siege.)The hope was that the Musrabs would run their own civil affairs. During this period the Israeli’s bragged about how they helped the Musrabs, cut infant mortality, generally improved health care, provided schools and Universities, and improved the economy, and provided other benefits,.although the Musrabs did not receive exactly the same level of governmental aid as the Jewish populace.

As Meir Kahane observed in his book "They Must Go," the improvements in the Musrab’s life only served to develop a healthier, stronger and better educated enemy. An irrational hatred will only be intensified by trying to be helpful to those who seek to destroy you.

There are thousands of quotes from Musrabs leaders and spokesmen making clear that their aim is to destroy Israel and to kill Jews anywhere they can. Polls show that over 50% of the Musrabs share this aim. Is there any reason they should not be taken at their word?

A large portion of the world, for their own reasons, refuses to deal with this stated and acted upon desire to destroy Israel .

As much as many people would like "Peace Now," it is unattainable for Israel. No matter what Israel does their enemies will keep trying to destroy it.

If the Musrabs would stop murdering innocent Jews, an unacceptable option to them, Israel would like to withdraw their military forces from the contested areas, have the Musrabs run their own civil affairs as much as possible, work at their jobs in Israel, build their economy, and improve their lives in all respects.

Unfortunately they’ll never do this. Their leaders will never give up their positions which among other things, allows them to use the financial support meant for the general populace for their own purposes, to have exalted positions and to chase their fantasies.

Their current plan is to keep killing Jews and at the same time to try to turn the world against Israel for taking military action when they attempt to stop the killing of their citizens and then ultimately destroy Israel .

The three main principals of the Musrab spokesmen and their sympathizers is lie, lie lie.

Since, for centuries, some people have believed the most ridiculous, grotesque and contradictory lies about Jews, they feel they can succeed.

They reason, that if people can believe that a Jew living today can be guilty of killing Jesus, that Jews use Christian babies blood for ritual purposes, are engaged in a worldwide conspiracy, are descendants of dogs, monkeys and pigs, are the children of Satan, that the world leaders including the Pope take orders from "the Jews " that "The Jews "are at the same time Communists, Capitalists and International Bankers and so on, people will believe any lies they can dream up. They see those lies have often worked in the past.

Many Anti-Semites, as one of their lies, equate Jews and Nazis. If that comparison had even the remotest possibility of being true, the Israeli’s could opt for a "Final Solution" to the Musrab problem.

The actual solution to the complaints of the Musrabs is for them to stop the wanton killing of innocent people, to give up their ambition of destroying Israel and to stop teaching hatred of Jews.

Unfortunately, they won’t adopt this course of conduct. If they could, they would stop Israeli military retaliation and could start building a better life and a functioning economy.

Reasonable and informed people should understand how unfairly Jews are being blamed and that sympathy for the Musrabs is misplaced.

Harvey Rogers is a lawyer and author. He can be contacted at harvesaurus@netzero.net

[yoyo]

A comprehensive of slides on the illogicisim of antisemitism (http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/wtj01000.htm)

[humus_sapiens]

Great article.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yoyo
[B]Extract:
In the 1930's there were signs in Europe saying, "Jews go to Palestine" (Now there are signs saying, "Jews get out of Palestine.")

Not only the 1930s. Not so long ago, when I was growing up in one Eastern European country, I was told repeatedly and _very_ convincingly: "Go away to your Israel!". With the roaring "r" to add insult. If not that, I could grow up as clueless as takeo... Actually, as the author noted, some Jews got used to insults and took them as normal state of life. I felt terribly shameful for them.

[elke]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Great article.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yoyo
[B]Extract:
In the 1930's there were signs in Europe saying, "Jews go to Palestine" (Now there are signs saying, "Jews get out of Palestine.")

Not only the 1930s. Not so long ago, when I was growing up in one Eastern European country, I was told repeatedly and _very_ convincingly: "Go away to your Israel!". With the roaring "r" to add insult. If not that, I could grow up as clueless as takeo... Actually, as the author noted, some Jews got used to insults and took them as normal state of life. I felt terribly shameful for them.

23 years ago, in the ex-capital of the self-same Estern European country, I think, I was witness to a group of idiotic teenagers, who pulled up a red rag on the flagpole, shouting "Death to Israel", and then turned to me and my friend, telling us to get the hell out and go there!

[yoyo]

That must make antisemitism to be "schyzo". Hitler was the catalyst for the antisemitism of the European avage person, and not the creator. How many French came out of the war and said about the Jews "they must have done something to deserve this" - I know a few old people that acknowledge saying that. The same today "Jews must have done something to deserve this" - their reference: "the occupation". Blattant comtempt and disregard for Jews which ever way they want to hide it "anti-israelism, anti zionism, etc...." and may I add pure jalousy because if Jews supposedly make so much money is because they get raised to work hard and not drain the country that host them!


Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Great article.
Not only the 1930s. Not so long ago, when I was growing up in one Eastern European country, I was told repeatedly and _very_ convincingly: "Go away to your Israel!". With the roaring "r" to add insult. If not that, I could grow up as clueless as takeo... Actually, as the author noted, some Jews got used to insults and took them as normal state of life. I felt terribly shameful for them.

[Mediocrates]

http://emperors-clothes.com/antisem/naz-sov.htm

Nazi and Soviet antisemitic cartoons side by side,

[Mil]

I think Jews have no business living in Europe any more. I think Europe was and still is a non-tolerant society, full of hate, historical burdens, idiotic principles, racial and ethnic rivalries, religious unacceptance, cultural unilateralism, political inneptness, socially non-progressive, and morally decrepit.... There are only a few countries where Jews are accepted as been a NORMAL part of society and accidently all of them are immigrant: Israel, USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. I seriously don't mind when Israel is critized politically by either one of the latter but Europeans they do it on a personal level and that enfuriates.

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by Mil
I Israel, USA, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
.

What about England? What about Japan, japan is western and has no history of anti semitism, despite it being an allie of hitler.
A japanese man was the person who saved most number of jews during ww2. What about Taiwan, can jews live their?
What about Tahiti can jews live there?

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by richcrassus
japan is western and has no history of anti semitism, despite it being an allie of hitler.

Eh? Welllll.......sort of. Public officials have made some pretty offensive statements......the info is out there.

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Eh? Welllll.......sort of. Public officials have made some pretty offensive statements......the info is out there.

Like what, maybe u would care to post a link (that works)
or just say what japanese officials have said about jews or israel, thats bad??

[Mediocrates]

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewas6.htm

http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/hist100.81/japan.html

http://www.nsjap.com/axis/history.html

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/aum.htm

But then there is the story of Tempo Sugihara, the Japanese consul in Kaunas (Kovno) in 1940, who, against the instructions of his Government, granted transit visas to thousands of Jews, thereby saving their lives. (He was recognized as a Righteous Gentile for his action.)


eh - I guess I'm just looking for demons. They're no better or worse than any other.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.human-nature.com/rmyoung/papers/pap140h.html



A deeply fascinating article on the psychodynamics of racism.

17 pages - too long to selectively quote here.

[Mil]

Yes - and I heard there are Jews in in China as well.

[Mediocrates]

No not really - there are the Shanghai Jews who were Germans shipped off to Shanghai shortly before WW2. Once Japan invaded China those Shanghai Jews were forced into a ghetto. They were treated somewhat better than the Polish Ghettos but many died and most left China after the war. One even wrote a book about it, I knew her son.

Otherwise there were some ancient Jews who lived in China centuries ago. What's left is little more than some ruins, poorly understood family rituals and stories. Anousim of the smallest type.

In modern days, the 19th C there were some Westerners who made legends of themselves in China and some of them were Jews including one character who was a gunfighter. I forget his name.

[Donna]

I don't suppose that Gene Wilder in "The Frisco Kid" would count.

:)



Originally posted by Mediocrates
In modern days, the 19th C there were some Westerners who made legends of themselves in China and some of them were Jews including one character who was a gunfighter. I forget his name.

[Mil]

Hell - there are actually two or three Jews left in Afganistan somewhere in Kabul and an ancient synagogue with a Torah!!! There was a funny story in Haaretz on the matter. The wife, who of course lives in Israel, of one of those Jews has filed for a divorce in Israel after the Taliban have left.

[Mediocrates]

Yesssss

~Willy Wonka is Jewish~

[Mil]

Willy?


Well - even Senior Schekelgruber himslef had a Jewish grandaddy or something thus accordingly if he survived WWII by the "Right of Return" he could have been an Israeli citizen.

[richcrassus]

Originally posted by Mil
Hell - there are actually two or three Jews left in Afganistan somewhere in Kabul and an ancient synagogue with a Torah!!! There was a funny story in Haaretz on the matter. The wife, who of course lives in Israel, of one of those Jews has filed for a divorce in Israel after the Taliban have left.

Knows whats even more funny, there are actually jews living in germany and europe, talk about not learning anything from bad experiences.

[yoyo]

As Leon Uris dies I'll tell you a little anecdote. Back in December I was looking for the Exodus movie (by Otto Preminger's based on the book). Guess what? None in Europe, none in England, none in France, none in Switzerland.... The only copy I have managed to get was a Zone 1 (America and Canada) import DVD which gave me an excuse to buy a multizone DVD. lol. Anyway I checked again before writting this and it is the same "shortage".

That would be alright if there was not more and more DVD and book about the "palestinian's plight" and how "Israel stole their land". What can I say? Europeans have their own way to bury the memories of the Holocaust :rolleyes:

[Mil]

Actually I don't know of any Holocaust movies coming out of Europe and especially from Germany. Shame.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by Mil
Actually I don't know of any Holocaust movies coming out of Europe and especially from Germany. Shame.

I'll try to be at my best and fair when talking about the state of Europe today and the countries which I know. Holocaust TV program (not movie, you are right) are showed a few times a year on channel such as "The History Channel" which is not available unless you have some sort of Digital TV provider. The main channels in France (6 channels) and England (5 channels) tend to not pass those sort of programs, although the BBC had one programme on the Wansee Conference for Holocaust Memorial Day. But talking of the devil (the BBC) they normally lead the way in the worst legitimization of terrorist "griefs" and run enormous amount of programs basically likening the threats of Israel to Saddam's runned Iraq. Israel killing death worshipper [emphasize added], Rachel Corrie. Program on the "zionist JEW lobby" that control "the American Government", you name it they will show it. Even when they interviewed a US Christian leader (can't remember his name) says "I represents millions of Christians and I sent a letter to Bush to remind him that we cannot ask Israel to give in to terrorism" they argued that the Jewish component is the MAIN factor. Another guy tell them that Christians Zionists are far numerous than under 6 million Jews (even less for the number of voters), yet they insinuate that this is difficult to believe. On UK Channel 4 there is a program called "Ramallah Daily", the sole purpose of this 10 minute program a few times a week is to show "poor" childrens that "lost" their brothers in the Intifadah. Of course no journalist will ask the question: "why do you send your children to attack israeli with rocks to kalashnikov?". As if an Israeli mother would send their child fight against the SS during WWII or Force 17 in the territories. France is the same.

But there is a very disturbing factor in Europe, it is the revisionism of the Holocaust and the more it is revised the more antisemitic acts grow. I tend to understand the curbing down of antisemitism with the memory of the Holocaust thus it is natural that when this one goes, so come antisemitism again. Although the inciting and violance linked to antisemitism is mostly muslim based (as opposed to Christian based) in Europe, there is an appathy of from the governement. In Durban, America left when they saw that this was like going to a Nazi Summer Univeristy, Europe stayed. Again that is my opinion but for me it is an acceptance that some antisemitism is inevitable, logical, natural therefore tolerable. Another story happened in France this week, a publisher was sentenced for 6 month suspended sentence for publishing a revisionist book and was ordered to remove the book from sales on the other hand a BIG publisher last year got off the hook after publishing that "most jews in France died from the typhus" and not in gas chambers. The court in this latter case argued that "it was a lie" but it would "cost too much" for the publisher to change it. The governement there has no policy except to say "there is no antisemitism in France, there never was".

And just to illustrate, I will tell you that about 20/30% of colleges are not taught the Holocaust although it is part of the OFFICIAL CURRICULUM. The reason is that those schools are composed of 30%-60% arabs population who threaten teacher, refuse to go to the lesson, piss in the classrom, throw paper at Jews in the classroom and "booo" the teachers if they dare mention the subject. They all say "the holocaust never happened, the israelis are nazi and making a genocide in palestine, we won't learn it". So the teacher accept to "keep the peace", in fact teachers are not hidding it anymore, the government does nothing. You add this on top of the politics and the propaganda of the media and you can see where it is leading. Europe, as I said, too happy to bury the Holocaust and prefer instead to talk about the "evil Israeli" supported by the "evil jews of the jewish lobby in America". Europe is anti-American almost as much as antisemite and it is driven by the muslims + their friends the leftist.

[Mil]

Thy God I live in America. Dude come live to US - you'll always find work here with your profession. As I said - Jews were never welcomed in Europe thus they have to leave that God-forsaken continent.

[jewbyc]

The nazi's were not the first to try and conquer Europe. The list just keep's getting's bigger. it seems they enbrace every fanitical idea that comes along. what do you expect from place that stood by and allowed the slaughter of untold millions.

[yoyo]

Thanks for the offer. However, my "exit strategy" will be in the direction of Israel, this is where I belong. For my base at least.... Because although I am an eng., I have what we call here a "consultancy business" in simple term "contracting". This is why I have clients across Europe, and just piercing in the US.

Shabbat Shalom to all of you



Originally posted by Mil
Thy God I live in America. Dude come live to US - you'll always find work here with your profession. As I said - Jews were never welcomed in Europe thus they have to leave that God-forsaken continent.

[yoyo]

Old but relevant....

Whosoever Blesses Them
The intifada and its defenders.
by Larry Miller
04/22/2002 12:00:00 AM


Larry Miller, contributing humorist


I WAS WATCHING Greta Van Facelift on Fox the other night, and she and her guests made me talk back to the TV. Shout back, actually. Nothing witty or trenchant, you understand, just something like, "Oh, come on!" Now, to be honest, it was late, and I was downstairs alone, and I was a little, what's the word . . . loaded, yes, that's the word. I was a little shined up. A little spiffed and a little miffed, and I shouted something and angrily turned off the remote. I don't know exactly how angrily a remote can be turned off, but as angrily as you can push a pfennig-sized piece of round plastic, that's how angrily I did it. Then I walked back to the bar, made myself one-for-the-stairs (as opposed to one-for-the-road) and read some P.G. Wodehouse to restore my cheery nature. But back to the freshly-tightened Greta.

Her guests were (INSERT INDISTINGUISHABLE ARAB NAME), from Hamas, and their attorney, Stanley Cohen. No, that's not a joke. Would that it were. Stanley Cohen, the attorney for Hamas. Check that handle again: Stanley Cohen. I mean, if you tried to make up a better name than that, you couldn't do it. Let's give it a shot, though, shall we? Irving Lefkowitz. Nah, too obvious. Lew Fishman. No, no, sounds like a carpet salesman. Isaac Bashevis Singer? Now I'm reaching. Nope, you just can't beat good ol' Stan Cohen. Yes, Stanley Cohen, folks, a hard-left, righteously indignant true-believer, an honors graduate from the William Kunstler School of Just-Not-Getting-It-And-Never-Will, who had flown all the way from New York to sit next to his wonderful client over there in not the land of milk and honey. Stanley Cohen. A man who, if he listened very carefully, would no doubt hear voices in the next room planning to blow the eyes out of more of his nieces and nephews. Stanley Cohen, and even typing that name right now and remembering this horrible man damning his own people again and again and again, I crack a nervous smile, because they're my people, too, and, God help me, if I didn't laugh, I think I might cry.

Oddly enough, out of the three of them, the homunculus from Hamas didn't bother me at all. I mean, if you think about it, why should he bother any American? We know exactly who he is and, in a way, we should be grateful for that. Because if we're only willing to absorb their own words--nevermind their demonic deeds--he and his brethren have a perfectly uncomplicated point of view and agenda, and their clarity should give us our own clarity, and wouldn't that be refreshing? You want us dead? Well, now, isn't that a funny coincidence. Guess what we want?

My point is, if American TV calls up and wants to put these philanthropists on, who could blame them for saying, "Sure!" I can just see them bursting out laughing and slapping each other on the back. ("They're going to put us on Fox TV! I told you terror works! And I'll bet their Green Room beats the snot out of Al Jazeera. I mean, please, how many olives can you eat?") If we're stupid enough to do that, I don't blame them for taking us up on it. All they have to do is take a few minutes away from packing rusty nails around the C4, pick one of their guys who looks, relatively, the least like a vicious scumbag, borrow a suit, and send him forth to smile for the cameras. With Stanley Cohen.

But let's leave the newly-stretched Greta for a moment, as well as our friends Stanley and Ishmael (no joke, his real name). A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course--that's where the real fun is--but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel--or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it--for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . . uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)

There's bad news on the losing moral weight front, and the signs are out there. Last week, the day after Secretary Powell left on his mission (whatever that was), the Los Angeles Times ran its lead editorial in one hundred percent support of the trip and the pressure he and President Bush were putting on Israel. Here's a good rule of thumb: If the Los Angeles Times thinks you're doing a great job, everything you're doing is wrong, stupid and mortally dangerous. If they think everything you're doing is wrong, stupid and mortally dangerous, you're doing a great job, and, in fact, your chances are probably very good for getting on the fast track for sainthood.

So, now, back to Greta. You know what made me mad enough to shout? You might not even think it was that big a thing.

After the show she said to these guys, "Thank you, gentlemen, for being my guests." "Gentlemen." "Guests." "My guests." That's what it's come to with these non-judgmental hosts and hostesses. Nice, huh? "Thank you, Mr. Stalin, sir, for being so gracious in giving us your valuable time." "My eternal gratitude, Chairman Mao, for taking precious moments away from your splendid Five-Year Plan and visiting with us in this most convivial way."

And I winced, and grunted, and shouted. Oh, yeah, and made that drink.

[Batman]

Why Do They Hate Us?
An Open Ditch In the Heart of Humanity
By Yosef Y. Jacobson

The uniqueness of Jew-hatred

Hatred of the Jew has been universal, permanent and deep. Death for the Jews has been desired and plotted by the tyrants of every age. Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Caesar, the Turks, the Christians, the Muslims, Stalin, Hitler and almost every great power that ever lived and flourished, defined the Jew as a target for abuse or complete annihilation. Jews have been expelled from nearly every country in which they resided -- England, France, Hungry, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia, Russia, Poland and the countries of the Middle East and North Africa, and of course, from their ancient homeland, Eretz Israel.

Throughout the centuries, many millions of Jews were murdered, including millions of infants and children. The Babylonians and Romans killed three million Jews. The Christians and the Muslims, in their Crusades, inquisitions, conversion decrees, blood libels and general religious fervor over a span of 15 centuries slaughtered millions of Jews, often wiping out entire communities. Chmelnitzky and his bandits beheaded 300,000 Polish Jews during 1648-49, while Hitler put to death a third of our people, including one-and-a-half million children. In nearly every country where Jews have lived, they have, at some time, been subjected to beatings, torture and murder, solely because they were Jewish.

And though many of us thought that the evil of anti-Semitism perished in a post-Auschwitz world, we have been rudely awakened during the last few years as it once again has reared its ugly face, particularly among Arab nations and sympathizers in Europe.

Why such hatred and fear of a people who never constituted more than a small minority? Why did almost every great culture and civilization see us as their ultimate enemy? Are we really such an evil people as to threaten the well being of virtually every civilization for the past 4,000 years?

Most scholars and historians, including many Jews themselves, choose to view this ongoing obsession not as something uniquely connected to Jews or Judaism, but rather as a multitude of isolated events erupting as a result of distinct circumstances.

For example, why do millions of Arabs hate Jews today? Why are thousands of them inspired to burn Jewish babies alive? Because ג€” the common explanation goes ג€” we are occupiers occupying their country and they yearn for liberation. If Israel would only grant the Arabs independence and hope, the venom would dissipate.

But why did they kill us before the "occupation" of 1967? Why did six Arab countries try to destroy Israel at a time when there were no settlements or settlers? Because, during the War of Independence in 1948 between the newly created State of Israel and its Arab neighbors, hundreds of thousands of Arabs fled their homes and ended up in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza. The Arabs were seeking to return to their homes inside pre-1967 Israel.

But why did the Arabs initiate this war against Israel in 1948 and thus create, through their own error, the refugee problem? Why did they not accept the United Nations' partition of Palestine and accept the reality of Jewish existence in the Jews' ancient homeland? For this we must search for another explanation.

The attempt continues to remove the notion of anti-Semitism from anything distinctly Jewish. The Germans, we are told, hated the Jews because they were scapegoats for a depressed economy, and the Christians wanted the Jews dead because they claimed we killed their god. Stalin murdered Jews because he believed they were capitalists while Europeans of the Middle Ages were repulsed by the Jew because of his economic success, and on and on.

Yet this approach is unconvincing. To deny that there is a single ultimate cause for all anti-Semitism, to reject that an underlying reason has sparked the hatred of billions of non-Jews for four millennia, contradicts both common sense and history.

Anti-Semitism has existed too long and in too many disparate cultures to tolerate a claim that each culture hated the Jews because of some distinct factor disconnected from being Jewish. To believe that Jew hatred is just another form of racial or religious bigotry, lunacy, ethnic hatred, lack of tolerance, xenophobia, resentment of affluence and professional success, is to turn a blind eye to the core cause of this unique loathing. Of course, various factors may exacerbate anti-Semitism and cause it to erupt at a given time, but these factors do not explain the origin and genesis of this hatred (1). One scholar put it well: Economic depressions do not account for gas chambers (2).

Haman's attempt

The famous Purim story, recorded in the biblical Book of Esther and read during the upcoming Purim festival (this Tuesday, March 18th), relates one more attempt made some 2,500 years ago to reduce the Jewish people to a pile of ashes, this time by a Persian minister named Haman.

Haman approached the then-king of Persia, Achashverosh, and offered him a tremendous sum of money in exchange for permission to arrange a "Final Solution" of having every member of the Jewish people ג€” men, women and children ג€” put to death. The king responded (3): "The money is given to you (Haman), and the nation (of Israel) is yours to do with, as you see fit."

This interaction seems quite understandable to me. Achashverosh, a no less miserable anti-Semite than Haman, happily embraces the idea of a world devoid of Jews. Yet the Talmud apparently feels it necessary to illustrate the situation by means of a parable.

A mound and a ditch
Here is the Talmud's parable (4):

"Achashverosh and Haman are compared to two people, one of whom had a mound of dirt in his field, and another one who had a ditch in his field. The owner of the ditch said to himself, 'How I wish the owner of the mound would give me his mound in exchange for money, so that I can fill my ditch.' And the owner of the mound said to himself, 'How I wish the owner of the ditch would sell me the use of his ditch, so that I can remove the mound of dirt from my field and dump it into his ditch.'

"After some time," relates the Talmud, "these two men encountered one another. The owner of the ditch said to the owner of the mound, 'Sell to me your mound!' The owner of the mound responded: 'Please, take it for free.'"

The Talmudic illustration is clear. Achashverosh is compared to the owner of the mound, which is a metaphor for the Jewish people. He desperately seeks to get rid of it. Haman is seen as the owner of the ditch, eagerly attempting to obtain the mound. When Haman offers to purchase the "mound" for money, Achashverosh gladly gives it to him for no payment at all, enthusiastically consenting to the annihilation of the Jews.

But here is the question: Parables quoted in Talmudic literature are never meant as entertainment, but rather as tools to clarify and crystallize an abstract or complex concept. But what is so difficult to understand about a story of two people who despise the Jews with similar intensity and eagerly cooperate to destroy them? Why do we need a parable about a mound and a ditch to clarify the situation between Haman and Achashverosh (5)?

And even if there is some difficulty in understanding what transpired between Haman and Achashverosh, how is it explained by means of this seemingly simple and superficial parable of a mound and a ditch?

What is more, the parable doesn't even fit the story it is attempting to illustrate. In the parable, the owner of the mound is seeking to dispose of his mound while the owner of the ditch craves to obtain the mound and fill his ditch with it. In the actual story, however, both the owner of the "mound," Achashverosh, as well as the owner of the "ditch," Haman, wish to dispose of the "mound" ג€” the Jewish people ג€” and get rid of it completely. You can't fill a ditch with a mound that you crave to annihilate (6)!

Two layers of antisemitism

What the Talmud is really attempting to convey via this parable is an answer to the question we raised at the onset of this essay: Why, nearly always and nearly everywhere, have Jews been hated? Why did Haman crave to kill every single Jew, down to an infant? Why would King Achashverosh be so eager to purge his country from all Jews? What have the Jews really done to attract such profound universal animosity?

It is this question ג€” perhaps one of the great questions of history ג€” that the Talmud is attempting to confront in this little passage.

Anti-Semitism, the Talmud is telling us, is multilayered with a "body" and a "soul." The "body," or the outer, external layer of anti-Semitism as personified by Achashverosh, sees Jews as a "mound." The inner, deeper and more complicated layer of anti-Semitism personified by Haman views the Jew as the cause of a universal "ditch."

CONTINUED NEXT

[Batman]

The external layer of anti-Semitism sees the Jew as a mysterious and suspicious stranger in world history, a foreign creep, a "mound" that simply does not belong here and ought to be disposed of. The Jew is perceived as a cancerous tumor, an alien growth, the ultimate intruder. The Jew may attempt to do everything possible to assuage the discomfort and mistrust the gentile feels toward him. He may sell himself, his soul, his people and his values. But it is usually to no avail: As long as the Jew is alive, he will remain, in many a non-Jewish eye, an irritable "mound" obstructing freedom and comfort.

Yet this crude outer shell, or "body," of anti-Semitism, is born of a deeper and subtler space within the non-Jewish consciousness: the soul behind anti-Semitism. Jewish existence opened a "ditch," a vacuum, in the heart of the human race, and every non-Jew, in one way or another, is aware of this truth, causing him to look at the Jew with admiration and affection, or with hate and repulsion, or with a mixture of the two.

Confronting a ballad of eternity

"What is the meaning," asks the Talmud, "of the term Mount Sinai? Sinai, in Hebrew, means hatred. Sinai is the mountain that gave birth to Jew-hatred."
(Talmud, Shabbas 89a (7)).

Some 3,500 years ago, at the feet of a lone mountain, the Jewish people received a gift that transformed their life and destiny for eternity. No matter whether religious, secular or assimilated, that moment imbued Jewish life with the dignity of eternity, the nobility of the divine and the grandeur of the infinite. The gift of Torah inculcated Jewish life with tremendous moral and spiritual responsibility, but it simultaneously granted the Jewish heart, the Jewish home, the Jewish family and the Jewish community — rich and poor alike — a taste of heaven.

When the non-Jew encounters the Jew, he is, consciously or subconsciously, struck by a richness of spirit, a depth of living, a resonance of eternity and an echo of the divine that is not easily described but very palpable. There is something about the Jew that is larger than life and the non-Jew feels it, sometimes more acutely than the Jew.

The Jewish presence, challenging the world with a call from the infinite, forming a collective conscience of the human race, opened a hole, a "ditch," in the heart of humanity. The Jewish people, by the shared richness and fullness of their lives, compelled the world to confront a feeling of spiritual emptiness in the absence of a life guided by a higher morality, ultimate dignity and purpose. The Jewish people opened a profound wound in the soul of civilization, causing it to wonder of its obsession with power and material wealth that is, at the end of the day, meaningless.

Few things are as unbearable and as frightening as the recognition of your life being insignificant and meaningless. Thus, the non-Jewish response to this "ditch" exposed by the Jewish presence was swift and sharp, and it came in two different forms.

Some non-Jews responded by actually elevating their lifestyles to a higher plateau. They assuaged the feelings of emptiness by forming a life and value system grounded on the Torah's weltanschauung. The American nation, founded on the Judaic ethic of respecting the liberty and individuality of man formed in the image of G-d, remains a vibrant and blessed example of this choice. This is why most of the Founding Fathers were authentic philo-Semites, cherishing and celebrating the Jew and his Jewishness.

John Adams wrote, "I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize man than any other nation." He wrote as a Christian, but added that even if he were an atheist and believed in chance, "I should believe that chance had ordered the Jews to preserve and propagate to all mankind the doctrine of a supreme, intelligent, wise, almighty sovereign of the universe, which I believe to be the great essential principle of all morality, and consequently of all civilization (8)."

This path, though, requires extraordinary discipline and sacrifice. Living with the G-d of the Torah is a tremendous burden. It demands that one challenge his or her ego, laziness and selfishness on a daily basis; it requires one to surrender many instincts, cravings, lusts and natural dispositions. It is rewarding and fulfilling, but not easy.

Sadly, most non-Jewish cultures and civilizations opted for an easier and more instinctive method through which to "fill" their mental and psychological "ditch": Kill the Jew, they said, and the void will be gone.

This is the "soul," or the deeper, spiritual layer, of anti-Semitism, engendered by the very existence of the Jew, who by his history, value system, indeed, his very being, reflects the rays of a living G-d of morality, justice, love and humility. It is a resentment and hostility directed toward the cause of a persistent emptiness in life.

Today, more than ever, the choice is clear. You can overcome this emptiness by cultivating a life of goodness and kindness, a life consistent with the divine image at the core of every human being, a choice personified by so many of our non-Jewish neighbors in today's world. Or, if you choose to follow the crude and evil dimension of man's psyche, you can come to hate and be repulsed by the Jews.

The attempts of many a tyrant to destroy the Jew were, in essence, a demonic drive to dethrone G-d and declare Him dead. The alternative, keeping the Jew alive, meant to live with the unbearable pain of personal emptiness.

This also means that antisemitism is not only a "Jewish problem," it is a disaster for every moral and decent non-Jew as well. "Watch how a nation, religion, a political movement treats Jews, and you have an early and deadly accurate picture of that group's intention toward others. Antisemites wish to destroy the perceived embodiment of that higher call to the good, the Jews. But they do not hate the Jews alone. They hate whatever and whoever represents a higher value, a moral challenge (2)."

Haman's rage

Not all anti-Semites were aware of the "soul" of their hatred. Haman was. When the entire Persian elite bowed to Haman daily, with the exclusion of one Jewish rabbi, Mordechai, the Bible tells us (9) that Haman "was filled with rage."

Why? Imagine thousands of people prostrating themselves before you on a daily basis, except one old ultra-religious man with a white beard. Big deal! Why was Haman so perturbed by the sight of one obstinate Jew not falling on his knees to worship him?

Because Haman, in a very deep place, knew that Mordechai had it right. Mordechai's behavior resonated in Haman's inner heart. It exposed the truth that Haman was not a god. Haman, craving to become a deity with ultimate power, was forced to confront the mediocrity and emptiness of his own ego.

He thus approached Achashverosh and said: I have a ditch in my heart, which I cannot bear anymore. I must rid the world from its Jewish presence. Achashverosh, a far less intelligent and complex person, responded: Great! The Jews, for some reason or another, always irked me regardless. I'd be more than happy if you can remove this cursed mound from my presence.

The solution

One of the many conclusions of the aforementioned idea is that the proper method of dealing with Jew-hatred in all of its manifestations is not to attempt to eclipse or deny one's Jewishness and the unique role of the Jewish people in history. The gentile, instinctively and accurately, feels the "otherness" of the Jew; the non-Jew innately senses the holiness embedded within the Jewish soul. When the Jew denies this holiness, when the Jew, embarrassed by his Judaism, tells the world, "I am just like you," the non-Jew senses a lie, a secret conspiracy, and he despises the Jew even more. The world will forever dislike Jews who dislikes themselves.

The Jew also knows that bribing, appeasing, and trying to bend over backwards to those who hate us will not supplant their hate with love. The animosity stems from too deep a place for it to be transformed through money or appeasement. Jews always knew that their primary and eternal hope remains in their relationship with
G-d, the sole Master of the universe, through the Torah and its Mitzvos.

That is why, when Mordechei and queen Esther learnt of Haman's decree, the first thing they did was engage in fasting, prayer, repentance and good deeds. Only after three days of fasting and introspection, did Esther use her position as the beautiful wife of the king and attempt to influence him, in the midst of a drinking party, to obliterate the decree against the Jews. Now, if Esther wished to impress her husband, she should have gone to a beauty-parlor not fast for three days!

The answer is, that Esther knew, as every Jew knows deep down in his heart, that salvation will not come from a man who sees the Jews as an eternal "mound." Salvation will come from G-d. Therefore, the first and foremost objective is to strengthen her relationship with G-d. Only afterward, are we called to follow the course of nature and attempt to influence world leaders to help secure the survival of the Jewish people.

Once we have secured our relationship with G-d, there is hope that G-d will manipulate the hearts of the Jew-haters to assist rather than destroy the Jews.


Continued: Resources

[Batman]

(This essay is based on an address by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Purim 1965 (11))
~~~~~~
Footnotes:
1) For a comprehensive discussion of this subject, the history and dynamics of antisemitism, as well as a convincing refutation of many of the popular reasons given for antisemitism, see Why The Jews? (Prager and Telushkin, Simon and Schuster, 1983.)
2) Ibid. p. 21.
3) Esther 3:11
4) Megilah 14a.
5) See Benayahoo to Talmud Megilah ibid. and Chasam Sofer - Toras Moshe L'Purim for their symbolic explanations of this parable.
6) Of course, one may answer that the parable is an imperfect one and it is just here to illustrate the point that the owner of the mound is willing to dispose of his mound without receiving payment. Yet anyone familiar with the Talmudic literature is aware of its extraordinary profundity and meticulousness. It is thus clear, that the comparison between Haman and an owner of a ditch seeking to fill it is precise and meaningful. Yet in the actual story, Haman's role is reversed, seeking to dispose of the mound and not have it remain in his territory?
7) Shabbas 89a. See Eyon Yaakov to Ein Yaakov ibid. -- The explanation for antisemitism that fallows has been articulated by Maimonidies in Igeres Taiman chapter 1.
8) For an elaborate discussion on this theme, See On Two Wings: Humble Faith and Common Sense at the American Founding, (Michael Novak, 2001)
9) See Faith After the Holocaust (Eliezer Berkowitz, Ktav, 1973) pp. 114-127, where this point is brilliantly demonstrated.
10) Esther 3:5.
11) Sichos Kodesh 5725 pp. 444-454.
~~~~~~End~~~~~~

[Salim]

As for me, I do definitely not hate "you", nor does anyone of my friends.

[Communication]

Hey Batman,

Ever think that maybe the reason why Jews were set up as the target for so much hated is because perhaps we, better than anybody else, hold the keys to unclocking the mystery of who Jesus was? No Jewish people= no Jewish tradition. Destroy the Jewish people and then Jesus can be whoever and whatever you want him to be. Just a thought.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Communication
Hey Batman,

Ever think that maybe the reason why Jews were set up as the target for so much hated is because perhaps we, better than anybody else, hold the keys to unclocking the mystery of who Jesus was? No Jewish people= no Jewish tradition. Destroy the Jewish people and then Jesus can be whoever and whatever you want him to be. Just a thought.

Perhaps not as far fetched as it sounds! When one looks at the Catholic Church throughout history and its teachings... the blatant demonising of Jews... and they weren't flying solo with anti-Semitism. I find their apologies, too little, too late.

[IndianSummer]

Communication : "...Ever think that maybe the reason why Jews were set up as the target for so much hated is because perhaps we, better than anybody else, hold the keys to unclocking the mystery of who Jesus was? No Jewish people= no Jewish tradition. Destroy the Jewish people and then Jesus can be whoever and whatever you want him to be..."


Seems slightly perposterous to me.

But maybe i'm not exactly qualified to enter a discussion on Jesus and Jewish tradition and whatnot...

Another reason: India is the only country ever to have never had even a single incident of anti-semitism ever. This despite a significant jewish population living in India for more than 1,000 years.

but yeahh, guys carry on the discussion. for once, i'll just shut up and learn.

;) @ Mediocrates

[peace4ev4]

Hi im writing due to concern. i pray everytime i remeber or see these bombings happening.I wish we had peace. I wish people would'nt just talk about it and drive past when its there infront of them. why are we letting this killing go on. you know what the problem is we allowed those terrorists to teach while we drived by in our cars, we didnt bother to to talk to them get to know them, which one of us ever atleast put out our hands out of jesture or atleast our leaders should. tell them in theyr own Quran it says not to harm the unarmed. We all know they are paranoid about Al Aqsa being taken over its one of theyr signs for the coming of the one eyed Anti-Christ. you know i wish i could be there to communicate to help everyone. Do you know the biggest fault. its the fact of America placing idiotic and ignorant leaders on top of Arabic countries thats where everything has happened my friends. if you opress people they become abase if they become abase they do wrong as we see today. I am Muslim and i have nothing but love for you and your families as a Muslim should. if I saw you hurt i would help without doubt. i would like your opinions. I figured we should learn from each other to help tackle anti-semitism. please write back I have so much to say and answer. peace be with you my friend. P.s i would really appreciate to know how far the zionist movement has yet to go because the signs also say "The people will take over all the way to syria." I know its not good to hear and we should try not to let this happen because i feel the worst for all of mankind because as soon as this happens Antichrist is here well thats what i believe you can believe its false if you like im just sharing information. thanks

[Mediocrates]

You mean like the head of Iran and the president of Syria? Those guys? Or did you mean Mubarek, the pharoh? Or maybe the head of Algeria or Mumay Khaddafy? Or did you mean the president of Malaysia?

[Aviva]

I am Muslim and i have nothing but love for you and your families as a Muslim should. if I saw you hurt i would help without doubt.

That's very good of you - thanks.


i would really appreciate to know how far the zionist movement has yet to go because the signs also say "The people will take over all the way to syria."

The Zionist movement was simply for the Jews to return back to where they came from - the Biblical land of Israel. The Romans exiled the Jews two thousand years ago and renamed the area Palestine. Although a small number of Jews always remained there, the majority had to leave and live in other parts of the world.

The desire to return back to the homeland is one of the central themes of the Jewish religion. This is what Zionism is. It's enemies claim it has some other agenda because they don't understand Jewish issues or they just hate Jews full stop. By the way, we don't believe in any kind of anti-Christ. We just believe in the coming of our Messiah (Saviour).

Zionism has nothing to do with invading Syria.

[rahon]

Hi im writing due to concern. i pray everytime i remeber or see these bombings happening.I wish we had peace. I wish people would'nt just talk about it and drive past when its there infront of them. why are we letting this killing go on. you know what the problem is we allowed those terrorists to teach while we drived by in our cars, we didnt bother to to talk to them get to know them, which one of us ever atleast put out our hands out of jesture or atleast our leaders should. tell them in theyr own Quran it says not to harm the unarmed. We all know they are paranoid about Al Aqsa being taken over its one of theyr signs for the coming of the one eyed Anti-Christ. you know i wish i could be there to communicate to help everyone. Do you know the biggest fault. its the fact of America placing idiotic and ignorant leaders on top of Arabic countries thats where everything has happened my friends. if you opress people they become abase if they become abase they do wrong as we see today. I am Muslim and i have nothing but love for you and your families as a Muslim should. if I saw you hurt i would help without doubt. i would like your opinions. I figured we should learn from each other to help tackle anti-semitism. please write back I have so much to say and answer. peace be with you my friend. P.s i would really appreciate to know how far the zionist movement has yet to go because the signs also say "The people will take over all the way to syria." I know its not good to hear and we should try not to let this happen because i feel the worst for all of mankind because as soon as this happens Antichrist is here well thats what i believe you can believe its false if you like im just sharing information. thanksYeah,you are a muslim,bla,bla,bla,bla.Bull Sh**e,a muslim you are not you are using a well known propaganda tool :REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY,inpersonating a muslim,you think, will make your lies more credible,HA,HA,HA,you got found out my friend.

[Mediocrates]

p4e is a spammer and has been told to stop.

[JesusRules]

Extract:
In the 1930's there were signs in Europe saying, "Jews go to Palestine" (Now there are signs saying, "Jews get out of Palestine.")


Where is Palestine? I thought God gave the Jews all the land of Canaan?

...the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your decendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river Euphrates..."

Genesis 15:18

Doesn't this include Gaza?:mad:

[JesusRules]

Hey Batman,

Ever think that maybe the reason why Jews were set up as the target for so much hated is because perhaps we, better than anybody else, hold the keys to unclocking the mystery of who Jesus was? No Jewish people= no Jewish tradition. Destroy the Jewish people and then Jesus can be whoever and whatever you want him to be. Just a thought.

I agree, a good point you made. All the bible writers were Jewish I think? Also, remember Jesus speaking to His disciples said, "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you." John 15:18

[Aviva]

Where is Palestine? I thought God gave the Jews all the land of Canaan?

...the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your decendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river Euphrates..."

Genesis 15:18

Doesn't this include Gaza?:mad:

The Romans renamed the area Palestine when they destroyed the Temple and exiled the Jews. They renamed the area in order to get rid of the Jewish connection to the land. Previously it was called Judaea, (ie: of the tribe of Judah) with the other areas being called Samaria, the Galilee, etc.

Gaza is included in the Bibilical land of Israel. You're right, JesusRules - it IS part of the land that was promised to the Jews. That's why all the Orthodox Jewish settlers lived there in great danger from attack by Palestinians before Ariel Sharon told them all to leave last year just to fit in with what the Palestinians wanted.

However, the moment the Jews left, the Palestinians started firing rockets at Israel from Gaza, rather than creating a modern state for themselves. There's been total chaos in Gaza since the Palestinians have been governing it. That's the sad truth.

[JesusRules]

The Romans renamed the area Palestine when they destroyed the Temple and exiled the Jews. They renamed the area in order to get rid of the Jewish connection to the land. Previously it was called Judaea, (ie: of the tribe of Judah) with the other areas being called Samaria, the Galilee, etc.

Gaza is included in the Bibilical land of Israel. You're right, JesusRules - it IS part of the land that was promised to the Jews. That's why all the Orthodox Jewish settlers lived there in great danger from attack by Palestinians before Ariel Sharon told them all to leave last year just to fit in with what the Palestinians wanted.

However, the moment the Jews left, the Palestinians started firing rockets at Israel from Gaza, rather than creating a modern state for themselves. There's been total chaos in Gaza since the Palestinians have been governing it. That's the sad truth.


Thank you Aviva for answering my question. Your right, giving up land that was given to the Jewish people by God has no gain for Israel and surely offers no peace.

[Titus]

Religion has no place in politics. If you wish to combine the two, the you are hardly in a position to take offence if there is 'anti-semitism'. As long as religion and politics remain blended there can be no end to 'anti-semitism' as all political actions will reflect on the religion and the race.

[Mediocrates]

And that is representative of what, exactly?

[Titus]

It means if you don't want people to hate jews, stop equating Israel with the Jewish people or faith.

[Mediocrates]

That's the silliest thing I've heard in about 5 years.

[Aviva]

It means if you don't want people to hate jews, stop equating Israel with the Jewish people or faith.

I was getting the idea that you were a reasonably educated person, Titus but now you've gone and blown it.

Do you really need me to explain that the Jews have returned to their former homeland in order to re-establish Israel after two thousand years of exile? Do you need me to explain that the Jewish religion revolves around the Temple in Jerusalem? Do you need me to explain that Jews all over the world pray for their return to Israel? That the land of Israel is an integral part of the Jewish religion?

[JesusRules]

It means if you don't want people to hate jews, stop equating Israel with the Jewish people or faith.

?:o You can't stop God's Covenent to the Jewish people to receive the land of Cannan?

God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish Decendants of Abram. The promise wasn't to Ishmael but to Issac. It's a lot smaller today than what God initially gave them. Please read Genesis.

[peace4ev4]

It's enemies claim it has some other agenda because they don't understand Jewish issues or they just hate Jews full stop. By the way, we don't believe in any kind of anti-Christ. We just believe in the coming of our Messiah (Saviour).

Zionism has nothing to do with invading Syria.[/QUOTE]

so who is your Messiah and what are his signs?

thank you for replying i appreciate the kindness of your message pece be with you.

[peace4ev4]

p4e is a spammer and has been told to stop.

your just like the media everything you say is false mr mediocrates. do you know what Spam refers to: electronic junk mail or junk newsgroup postings. Some people define spam even more generally as any unsolicited e-mail. In addition to being a nuisance, spam also eats up a lot of network bandwidth. so wat are you saying nothing i say regards to the subject. look again fool. im not the one spamming you are because your comments are useless and offending if any ones spamming it is you.
i offer my hand of peace and you spit it right back at me some kind of good person you are try to find a different approach and that goes for Rahon too and his reverse psycology bull get your facts right and prove anything you say if it is the truth. exactly you have no proof i cud say your brazilian for all i know. so stop making daft alligations and lets find a soloution not a war of misconceptions and subject changes.

[peace4ev4]

?:o You can't stop God's Covenent to the Jewish people to receive the land of Cannan?

God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish Decendants of Abram. The promise wasn't to Ishmael but to Issac. It's a lot smaller today than what God initially gave them. Please read Genesis.

and waz you there at the time time do you want a certificate to say that is true or a parchment. so if God said America was mine cud i have it or do i have to nick it and say you stole it from us first afta so many hundreds of years if i was an indian. could i go and take it back the only reason you have support is because Islam is the fastest growing religion and you needed something to boost yours. its aparantly the fastest in America hmmmm i wonder why they are all disrespecting Islam all of a sudden in the start of the 1900.
now wherever islam is mentioned terrorist comes to mind. is this how they want you to think and who are they? wat about the crusades no one said your terrorists then did they. ofcourse we didnt have cameras then so we let that go too. they say the blood was knee high.
there is too much manipulation and lies to tel the truth of what really happens in this day. all i know innocent lives are disappearing by day and night and its not right and you have the nerve to dissrespect even more rather resolving the issue.

[JesusRules]

[QUOTE=peace4ev4]Islam is the fastest growing religion and you needed something to boost yours. its aparantly the fastest in America hmmmm i wonder why they are all disrespecting Islam all of a sudden in the start of the 1900.
QUOTE]

Fires grow fast too but that doesn't mean they are good. Islam is a fast growing religion in America and in the world. After spending many years in the bible, I am not surprised these days as I see the prophetic links starting to come into play for the grand finale.:)

[JesusRules]

u telling me if someone believed in some little book and came to rob u from ur home and land u wouldnt put up a fight. i dont see how u call palestinian children throwing stones at tanks terrorists. shouldnt it be the tanks and missiles u launch at people having pickinicks on the beach we should be calling terrorists.

Children are like sponges, they are identical to thier parents in most cases. Look at a child's behavior and get a close look at the parents without seeing them. God loves all peoples, Jews and Gentiles. This is about a little speck of a country in the world that seems to be the spotlight of the world. This is because it's Jesus homeland and location of His earthly ministry. This is God's place that He will dwell in the future Millenium. Jesus was a Jew and the Jews were given this land by His Heavenly Father.

[JesusRules]

so y did the jews bomb the church of nativaty where jesus was supposed to have been born. Only freedom fighter and preists were harbouring in it and 2 preists and 13 freedom fighters died in in 2 children

Sad isn't it?

[JesusRules]

yea i know especially when people like "jesusrules" love the jews and they then go and bomb jesus's birth place

I don't hate anyone. I am very sad that innocent people are caught in the crossfire. I am very sad indeed. Israel has the right to defend her homeland and weed out these people who want to kill every one of them.

[peace4ev4]

Fires grow fast too but that doesn't mean they are good. Islam is a fast growing religion in America and in the world. After spending many years in the bible, I am not surprised these days as I see the prophetic links starting to come into play for the grand finale.:)[/QUOTE]

I think its the other way round mate. in the name of god most merciful most gracious. theses words are in the beginning of every chapter hmm im sure i have seen these words in the new testament. by the way we dont take anything from christianity becase my religion is whole god has perfected our religion. its just some people fail to judge by the light of what god has revealed to them. jesus only came to confirm the Law from before and jesus isnt a god this is the only differ between me and you. you associate jesus as son of god and thats why the jews do not accept your religion.
just like they dont believe in jesus is the similitude of why you dont believe in our prophet but all prophets carried one message to believe in the one God. youve heard of chinese whispers just think it the same remember the first 400 years you believed in one God and Jesus as the messenger now think what was satan doing all this time its obvious he wanted to change certain details to put you a stray you put all your faith in jesus but whaat God the one God who judges you in the end. you dont even know what happens in life after death. End of the day Jesus ate food and drank water if he was the son of god then what is Adam. .

[JesusRules]

for fod sake the jews tried to kill jesus.

Please read Isaiah 53. God the Father offered up Jesus. He knew what was going on.

"Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin. He shall see His seed, he shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand."

Isaiah 53:10

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities..."

Isaiah 53:5a

[peace4ev4]

Please read Isaiah. God the Father offered up Jesus. He knew what was going on.

please read deutronomy chapter 18 line 18 youl know what is going on regarding Muhammads coming and Jesus is not like moses in regards of Moses got married had a normal birth and lived and died the main charecteristics for any human life.

[JesusRules]

please read deutronomy chapter 18 line 18 youl know what is going on regarding Muhammads coming and Jesus is not like moses in regards of Moses got married had a normal birth and lived and died the main charecteristics for any human life.

John 4:25 and 8:28 doesn't mention Muhammad as the prophet but Jesus fullfills this scripture.

[MGB8]

The church of the Nativity was desicrated by Pal Arab slime who invaded it, took 's everywhere, used the clergy for human shields and robbed them, and then FIRED FROM IT. Israel did not "bomb" it, they did seige it, and there was some exchange of fire.

As soon as the evil bastard pal Arabs were expelled (and imprisoned) everything went well there.

Meanwhile, the Muslims have made Nazareth and Bethleven, which used to be majority Christian citys, into majority Muslim ones. The MUSLIM ARABS are driving out the Christian Arabs, which is what the evil f-ers do. Look at the maronites and copts in Egypt and Lebanon.

[JesusRules]

[QUOTE=MGB8]

Meanwhile, the Muslims have made Nazareth and Bethleven, which used to be majority Christian citys, into majority Muslim ones. QUOTE]

Thank you for bringing truth to the current darkness.

[peace4ev4]

John 4:25 and 8:28 doesn't mention Muhammad as the prophet but Jesus fullfills this scripture.

where does it say Jesus name mentioned there too. come on im talking about deutronomy surely a human companions is a theory not a fact what about the part where it say "he will come from his brethren "

[peace4ev4]

so why the hell are the christians in palestine and the arab world supporting palestine and condemin israel. The muslims are the majority because they are the fastest growing religon in the world and no tje preists in the church were helping the freedom fighters and were not held hostage. muslims and christians get along in peice no wonder why the jews had been hated before by the spanish italiens germans and many more. They are not making any freinds in this world
do you even bother to see if these alligations are real or do you want to believe it so it becomes true.

[JesusRules]

so why the hell are the christians in palestine and the arab world supporting palestine and condemin israel. The muslims are the majority because they are the fastest growing religon in the world and no tje preists in the church were helping the freedom fighters and were not held hostage. muslims and christians get along in peice no wonder why the jews had been hated before by the spanish italiens germans and many more. They are not making any freinds in this world

Muslims who follow the teachings don't get along with Christians or Jews because the Hadith and Quaran calls for (infidels) to be killed. Thier is no unity with Christianity and Islam.

[JesusRules]

where does it say Jesus name mentioned there too. come on im talking about deutronomy surely a human companions is a theory not a fact what about the part where it say "he will come from his brethren "

Does Muhammed speak the words of God as Jesus did? Do you see unity in the Biblical God and Allah? Please peace4ev4, I'm sure you are one of the more sharper crayons in the box. Can you show Muhammed coming from the line of David?

[peace4ev4]

The first part: Muhammad bin ‘Abdullah bin ‘Abdul-Muttalib (who was called Shaiba) bin Hashim, (named ‘Amr) bin ‘Abd Munaf (called Al-Mugheera) bin Qusai (also called Zaid) bin Kilab bin Murra bin Ka‘b bin Lo’i bin Ghalib bin Fahr (who was called Quraish and whose tribe was called after him) bin Malik bin An-Nadr (so called Qais) bin Kinana bin Khuzaiman bin Mudrikah (who was called ‘Amir) bin Elias bin Mudar bin Nizar bin Ma‘ad bin ‘Adnan.

The second part: ‘Adnan bin Add bin Humaisi‘ bin Salaman bin Aws bin Buz bin Qamwal bin Obai bin ‘Awwam bin Nashid bin Haza bin Bildas bin Yadlaf bin Tabikh bin Jahim bin Nahish bin Makhi bin Aid bin ‘Abqar bin ‘Ubaid bin Ad-Da‘a bin Hamdan bin Sanbir bin Yathrabi bin Yahzin bin Yalhan bin Ar‘awi bin Aid bin Deshan bin Aisar bin Afnad bin Aiham bin Muksar bin Nahith bin Zarih bin Sami bin Mazzi bin ‘Awda bin Aram bin Qaidar bin Ishmael son of Abraham (AS).

The third part: beyond Abraham (AS) , Ibn Tarih (Azar) bin Nahur bin Saru‘ bin Ra‘u bin Falikh bin Abir bin Shalikh bin Arfakhshad bin Sam bin Noah (AS) , bin Lamik bin Mutwashlack bin Akhnukh [who was said to be Prophet Idris (Enoch) bin Yarid bin Mahla’il bin Qainan bin Anusha bin h bin Adam (AS).

there you are mate he comes from Abraham the brethren of moses ring any bells.
i would of gave you a diagram but it was in capable of putting it on.

[MGB8]

Christian Arabs support other Arabs somewhat on an ethnic basis, and mostly out of FEAR.

[peace4ev4]

Christian Arabs support other Arabs somewhat on an ethnic basis, and mostly out of FEAR.

It is the They say: "(Allah) hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
the people of the portion of the book say in their hearts, i wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!

if they fear, Allah is the judge of those who transgress or do righteous deeds. infact they shouldnt be fearing them because they have the being worth worship who is their protector unless they have jesus as a protector. well whatever happens we all return to the one God in the end.

When Allah, the One and Only, is mentioned, the hearts of those who believe not in the Hereafter are filled with disgust and horror; but when (gods) other than He are mentioned, behold, they are filled with joy!
Say: "O Allah. Creator of the heavens and the earth! Knower of all that is hidden and open! it is Thou that wilt judge between Thy Servants in those matters about which they have differed."

its ok, end of the day a person goes to heaven on account of his deeds so lets race in a race towards all things good, for we only have a short life

[MGB8]

4eva4....

I have no real issues with Islam. My roomie is (non-practicing) Muslim. I have Muslim friends of various degrees of observance.

I do, however, believe that Islam has in it more language than other faiths that can be interpreted, maybe even should be interpreted, to be imperialistic and supremacist.

I believe that it is no coincidence that most terrorism on this earth is Muslim, including Muslim on muslim (believe kafirs.)

That said, its a matter of interpretation, like anything else. I still believe, though many do not, that there can be a peaceful, non-expansionist, non-supremacist Islam - that "true" Islam is what people decide it is, and that the main issue is politics, not Islam.

However, you have many bretheren who are convinced that true Islam must conquer the West, return dar al Harb to dar al Islam, destroy Israel, and subject people of other faith to dhimmitude and kill anyone who converts out of Islam if they don't change their minds. Right now, not so much a religion of peace.

[Aviva]

so who is your Messiah and what are his signs?

thank you for replying i appreciate the kindness of your message pece be with you.

The Jewish Messiah (and the concept of exactly what a Messiah is is entirely Jewish in origin) hasn't arrived yet. There have been many false Messiahs over thousands of years.

Maimonides writes about how to recognise who the Messiah is - there's a good thread about it somewhere on this forum. Many Lubavitch Jews believe the Messiah is/was Rabbi Menachem Schneerson.

[Womble]

Your analysis is very narrow minded,blatantly jugementale,should I remind you again that, what you are calling terrorisme is in fact RESISTANCE
How is bypassing easier accessible military targets in order to blow up a bunch of civilians "resistance"? Resistance against what, humanity? Morality? Common sense?


you should ask yourself why sweden or finland for instance have never been targeted
Because that's where the terrorists' nests are. Sweden and Finland (especially Sweden) are used by the terrorists for fundraising, coordination and as shelter.

Besides- Swedish Muslims Call For Terror Attacks Against Sweden over "offensive" art (http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/03/swedish-muslims-call-for-terror.html).


Besides,as far as I know,sionisme,nazisme communisme,imperialisme,........ect....are christian or jewish inspired phylosophies,not muslim.
1)You've butchered the spelling of most words in this sentence. You've misspelled Zionism TWICE, which probably reflects your attitude to it:p

2)Why did you leave Islamism out of the list, and what is imperialism doing on it? It's not even a philosophy.

3)Muslims are well familiar with imperialism. They were one of the most active imperialists and colonizers in the human history, conquering and ethnically (and religiously) cleansing huge territories from Spain to India- which is how they gained all that land they now consider theirs.

[JesusRules]

The Jewish Messiah (and the concept of exactly what a Messiah is is entirely Jewish in origin) hasn't arrived yet. There have been many false Messiahs over thousands of years.


He came in the 1st. Century and will come again to save Israel from the future attack on her that comes from all nations:

"Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. THEN the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. AND IN THAT DAY His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east."

Zechariah 14:1-4

Praise Jesus!

[user954651]

A comprehensive of slides on the illogicisim of antisemitism (http://www.aish.com/seminars/whythejews/wtj01000.htm)

Wow, what an article.

I have a historical context of the same kind of thing if you click here (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/cruxcontents.htm).

Great article, thanks.