Fatah-linked group killing Romanian worker

[yoyo]

It would have lasted less than 24 hours... Happy Road Trap!

Fatah-linked group violates cease-fire, killing Romanian worker (UPDATE)
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

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A Romanian construction worker was killed Monday in a Palestinian shooting attack in the West Bank, only a day after the three largest Palestinian factions said they would observe a temporary truce, the Israeli military said.

The Al Aksa Martyrs' Brigades, a militia affiliated with Yasser Arafat's ruling Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for the shooting near the West Bank village of Yabed.

"We do not agree with the cease-fire," a group of militiamen from the West Bank town of Jenin said in a statement. "This is our first action. This is the
beginning."

The militia consists of bands of gunmen who do not
recognize a central authority _ unlike the armed wings of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the other signatories to the three-month truce.

The victim was a Romanian worker involved in road
construction by Israel. The worker was driving in a truck when he was shot in the head, the army said.

Palestinians have carried out dozens of shootings
on West Bank roads in the past 33 months of fighting.

301102 jun 03GMT

[sharonbn]

yes, it is true the Pals violated the cease fire.
However, I believe Israel should show retraint and not retaliate, in hope (and test) that the Pal gov't will stop the violators by itself.
we cal always "go back" to the hopeless situation that was before...

[yoyo]

That's all very well, but there is something I am missing here. Israel is dealing with the biggest terrorist or political group (depending which way you see it): the Fatah which is the bulk of the PLO. Abu Mazen allegedly speaks for that group. He went to Aquaba to affirme a stop the armed "intifadah". He is suppose to represent and be the head of Fatah yet it was clear that the Fatah never even considered until late yesterday to lay down their arms.

Today it is his party that killed this poor Romanian. So the question is, who is Mazen representing? himself?

No, the Palestinian on the street support the terror organizations, and Mazen want to talk it over, he said he won't disarm or arrest any one. Unless Mazen comes up with a plan that wants to destroy the terror infrastructures (starting with his own) how long do you want to wait? Did he come to Rice and said "I need X million dollars and Y guns to dismantle the terrorist groups"? No he complained about "the wall"!

Originally posted by sharonbn
yes, it is true the Pals violated the cease fire.
However, I believe Israel should show retraint and not retaliate, in hope (and test) that the Pal gov't will stop the violators by itself.
we cal always "go back" to the hopeless situation that was before...

[tandem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
yes, it is true the Pals violated the cease fire.
However, I believe Israel should show retraint and not retaliate, in hope (and test) that the Pal gov't will stop the violators by itself.
we cal always "go back" to the hopeless situation that was before...
this attack could also be a tactic of yasser arafat himself to undermine the roadmap and get the israelis out of more territories in judea and samaria

israel could ask the palestinian police force to find those responsible for this murder and punish them. but the palestinians will probably come up with some fancy excuse not to do it, like the area where this murder took place is under israeli control, not palestinian, and as such the palestinian police can't do anything about it

what were the israelis thinking, to actually believe the palestinians will keep their word. the vast majority of palestinians do not want peace and that's a fact. what if the roadmap fails? where do we go from there? put together another roadmap? it's ridiculous. stop wasting time on this stupid roadmap which will lead nowhere anyway and start putting together a transfer plan

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by tandem
stop wasting time on this stupid roadmap which will lead nowhere anyway and start putting together a transfer plan [/B]
why a transfer plan? the Pals still caused a headache when they were in Lebanon. I say lets kill all of them!! down to the last newborn. that will put an end to the problem and all arab countries will them make peace with Israel and all nations of the world will forever praise Israeli justice and humanitarism.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by sharonbn
why a transfer plan? the Pals still caused a headache when they were in Lebanon. I say lets kill all of them!! down to the last newborn. that will put an end to the problem and all arab countries will them make peace with Israel and all nations of the world will forever praise Israeli justice and humanitarism.

<edited by moderator>

[L@mplighterM]

I think that killing them all would not sit well with the world community unless it was the Jews that were being killed. Judging by anything that I have ever seen or read there’s certainly a lot of support/justification for Palestinians killing Jewish children and adults.

Assuming that 50%+1 of Palestinians in the WB and GS supported the genocide of Jews then the governing body in Israel unfortunately has the distasteful job of dealing with the situation. I happen to think that 50%+1 do indeed support the elimination of the State of Israel of course the IDF could start handing out lollipops in attempt to change those figures.

Who the hell is kidding who here? If I lived in a neighborhood where my neighbors were trying to kill me or mine on a CONTINUOUS basis then one of two things would happen. I would be DEAD or it would be my goal to eliminate the murderous bastards. In the absence of a force that takes the strongest possible actions to stop such attacks it would be my responsibility to arrest such attacks thus protecting my family and friends.

[alexbmn]

SharonB let me tell you about the first rule of war known to all people during the history of human civilization.In war you keep killing your enemy until he can no longer kill you.

[alexbmn]

Little green Footballs will have such events under a headline titled "Hudna watch".

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by alexbmn
SharonB let me tell you about the first rule of war known to all people during the history of human civilization.In war you keep killing your enemy until he can no longer kill you.

It all depends on your definition of who's your enemy.

Is the Palestinian people. the civillians who, according to
L@mplighterM, wish the destruction of Israel - are they the enemy?

The same people who answer yes to the above support the dropping of the atomic bomb on Japanese cities, the bombing of Dresden and carpet bombs of Vietnam and Cambodia.

I really do wonder why the Brits didn't just go about killing Catholic Irish "until he can no longer kill you"
I really do wonder why the French didn't just go about killing Algerians "until he can no longer kill you"
Speaking of brits, I really do wonder why the Brits, while ruling Israel, didn't just go about killing Jews "until he can no longer kill you"

It seems to me that when it comes to fighting underground movements supported by civillian population, when it comes to war between an oppressed people and an imperialistic, foreign rule - the "first rule" is doesn't apply.

[jewbyc]

Every boby keeps talking about the oppressed people. The Palestinian owe their plight to the other 20 or so muslim nations that refused to take in the refugee's. They fled Israel so the arab army's could kill jews without mercy. They lost now they are going to cry about it. Something is wrong with this picture

[L@mplighterM]

It seems to me that you’re trying to pervert history with your comparison of the US bombing Japan versus the British killing Jews.

In an ideal world we can all join hands and dance under the fig trees. I prefer to live in reality and the reality is that the majority of Palestinians support the destruction of Israel according to the latest polls issued today.

If the bombing of Dresden was instrumental in saving the life of one individual incarcerated in a German concentration camp (that person could be an old Jew or Gentile aged 150 years old) then I would have supported it. It wouldn’t have mattered to me if every German that supported Hitler had died at the hands of the allies. In war it’s impossible to separate the salt from the pepper and so innocent civilians die and that’s life.

The Japanese believed that their Emperor was G_d on earth and like fanatically chose to support him at all costs. Then like today I would not want to live in a Japanese society because it’s just too racially intolerant for me.

I don’t live in Israel but I have friends that live and visit there. Whatever problems Arabs are facing in that region is their own making and they should shut up and put up. Jealousy is a bad trait and that’s exactly one of the Arabs main problems. The Jews have taken the desert and made it bloom whereas I view the Arabs living in the WB and GS as lazy. If the Arabs piled up all the stones they have thrown at Jews then they would have a tall mountain that they could use for a ski resort.

The world including Israel has turned the WB and GS into a welfare state where people get something for nothing. Not only that there’s poor accountability for the money that is given to the PA and some of it has been used to issue paychecks to terrorists signed by Arafat himself.

It’s obvious that the Palestinians are still fighting lost battles. The only error that I feel that Israel has made post 1967 is that they haven’t been able to decide what part of the WB and GS they require for defensible borders if indeed such borders could be made.

In any event whether or whether not such borders are possible an attempt should have been made to establish such borders and at that point hand over the land. In other words put up and shut up there’s your land! If at that point there’s cross border terrorism by organized thugs supported by what ever governing body that’s in place then I would support leveling that country.

Now I want to make it perfectly clear that I only refer to the border issue as being an error on Israel’s part because their government agreed to return the land. My personal belief is that the so called Palestinians should have been relocated and every square inch of land (WB and BS) should have been annexed by Israel.

[alexbmn]

the Atomic bomb ended the war ,and I absolutely support it. The problem with the bombing of Dresden is that it was pointless. The city wasnt important from a military point of view. Maybe you are unfamiliar with concept of total war,but in WWII civilians were nearly as much a part of the war effort as were the front line soldiers. Here's a second rule of war for you , enemy civilians are worth less then the lives of your soldiers. I'm not in any way proud of the fact that IDF sent its soldiers into a booby trapped Jenin. No other army would have done it.

On and those three examples of guerrila campaigns you brought up are sad. Palestinians arent waging a war of liberation they are waging a war of destruction and aggression. Had any of those three guerrila forces (Jews, NRA, Algerians ) commited the kind of atrocities that Palestinians had done , they would have been exterminated to a man. The Algerians and the NRA werent an existential threat to the French and the English like the Palestinians are to Israel. And in fact Britain and France used far greater force against their enemy then Israel has against Palestinians.,who are waging a total war against Israel

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by alexbmn
the Atomic bomb ended the war ,and I absolutely support it. The problem with the bombing of Dresden is that it was pointless. The city wasnt important from a military point of view. Maybe you are unfamiliar with concept of total war,but in WWII civilians were nearly as much a part of the war effort as were the front line soldiers.

You lost me because you state that civilians are worth somewhere around 50% in any war effort and yet you argue that Dresden wasn’t an important military target. I don’t understand!

In any event the destruction of Dresden demonstrated to the Germans that the allies could destroy any city in Germany. I visited Germany about 15 years or so after the war and the destruction was awesome. Even though I was just a kid when I visited there I’ll never forget the absolute destruction that I saw in some cities.

It has always made me wonder how a homosexual like Hitler was able to have much of a whole nation worship and follow him. I think that it was many factors that brought Hitler to power, Wagner’s music, his oratory skills, the Treaty of Versailles, etc.

The Jews became the scapegoats that Hitler blamed for everything that ailed the country.

Anyways getting off topic here.

[sharonbn]

unfortunately, it seems the cease fire violations continue:

This morning (Tuesday) a Palestinian opened fire on IDF roadblock south of Tul Karem: IDF sources say two Palestinians approached the roadblock and one of them opened fire from a pistol. Israeli soldiers responded with fire and killed the shooter. His accomplice, who did not fire, fled the scene.

The sources commented that IDF identified a substantial effort from El Aqsa brigades to commit terror attacks.

Despite the handover of control in GS, 4 events occurred last night (Monday night) on which Palestinians opened fire on Israeli forces. In all events, no one was injured and no damage was done. On one occasion, Palestinians fired from Han Yunis upon military vehicles patrolling Gush Katif settlements. On other occasions, Palestinians opened fire on military outposts surrounding the block of settlements.

This morning saw no reduction in the number of focused attack alerts which stands at 50. The number on Saturday night, just before the cease fire became official stood on 60 focused alerts out of 70 total alerts.

Israel, however, did not perform any arrests or other significant initiated action, with the exception of the exposure and capture of one bomb strap in Tul Karem that was revealed by members of a terrorist squad which was apprehended last week.

Military officials claim that three wanted Palestinian terrorists passed the passage linking the north and south of GS just hours after it was open for free Palestinian movement. The wanted persons could not use the passage until now for fear of being caught by IDF. The officials expressed their concern that as confidence among Palestinians will grow, more wanted persons will come out of their hiding places and resume their terrorist activity.

[L@mplighterM]

Arabs have demonstrated quite clearly how to deal with terrorists and their supporters, they kill them. I wonder how any western country would be without a police force to quell demonstrations? I think we’d quickly drift into anarchy and many leaders would emerge in sections of the country. Eventually these leaders would wage organized battles against each other to gain power and control.

I’m certain that Arafat ruled the WB and GS with an iron fist. Of course there were those that tested the waters but they were unsuccessful and paid the price. The same can be said in Iraq and Afghanistan where the US and the allies have their work cut out for them to establish a lasting peace. Personally, I think it’s a fool’s errand and they’ll never set out to achieve what they set out to do.

I’m certain that the smiling faces in the WB/GS, look at the mighty US and see its weakness. There’s no precedent in history where a negotiated peace has ever been successful where one party refuses to lay down its arms. Such is the case with the Palestinians there’s plenty of fight left in their leaders and their followers.

There’s never been a case in the history of the world where a superpower has been able to control the world forever. Empires rise and fall just as sure as rocks turn to sand and dust. I strongly believe that 9/11 became a turning point in our western history and that there’s much worse to come.

[alexbmn]

Lamplighter,let me clarify that. I meant that Dresden wasnt an military objective and there was no need to bomb it. Basically what I'm saying that I'm okay with bombing of enemy cities so it will make their conquest easier by ground forces. And I dont think there's nothing wrong with bombing factories that produce weapons and other materials relevant to the war effort.

[L@mplighterM]

As far as I’m concerned the allies should have turned Germany into a wasteland by obliterating every major city. Germans knew exactly what was happening to the Jews in the early 1930’s and only a few actively tried to stop it.

Military target or not the bombing of Dresden demonstrated quite clearly that the allies had air superiority. Charles Portal of the British Air Staff was the one that advocated area bombing believing that it would collapse civilian morale. I happened to think that he was correct! How long might the war have lasted if not for the bombings?

The only fly in the ointment was that the German leadership knew full well that they would be executed if they surrendered and so they had nothing to loose. These barbaric murderous bastards (not unlike elements from within Islam) knew that their only chance for survival was to win the war at all costs, there could be no surrender.

Many of Hitler’s henchmen shortened their lives by a year or so to escape the gallows that awaited them. They knew that they had committed unspeakable crimes against humanity by murdering six million Jews and five million Gentiles.

I’m certain that whilst the war was in full progress negotiations were taking place behind the scenes, unfortunately I wont be alive when these documents are released. Hitler and his Generals knew at some point (months if not years) prior to his defeat that they were loosing the war and so they wanted a safe haven but none was given.

War is not a pretty picture innocent people die and that’s just the way it is. At what point does a soldier become a civilian? About 100,000 German POW’s were sent (at the end of the war) from England to Russia where they were executed.

[sharonbn]

according to you guys, there is no such thing as a war crime. Civillians are legitimate targets and all's fair at [love and] war.

I may be overlooking something here but I don't see the difference between indiscriminate killing of civillians through carpet bombing and death camps. Its systematic mass murder both ways. As alex already mentioned, there was no reason for bombing Dresden other than revenge. Revenge is an immoral barbaric emotion and dertainly not a "consideration" I would expect from high command and state leaders.

In my eyes, both cases constitue a war crime. Just becase you don't see the masses you kill from high up in the air - does not make it more justified. The only difference is (maybe) in numbers.

[L@mplighterM]

I’m a pacifist in my heart and I believe that the gift of life is a treasure. I happen to think that life begins at conception and therefore I classify abortion as murder. I never hear anyone squawking about 40,000,000 East Indian women that have been murdered since 1950 +/- and most likely an equal number of Chinese met the same fate.

Unfortunately there are evil people in this world that lead their nation into battles and everyone has the right to act in self defense they should also mitigate loss on their side.

Hitler was evil and so was his followers and I believe that the bombing of Dresden must have saved at least one life on the allies side. If it did then it was most certainly worth it!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by sharonbn
according to you guys, there is no such thing as a war crime. Civillians are legitimate targets and all's fair at [love and] war.

I may be overlooking something here but I don't see the difference between indiscriminate killing of civillians through carpet bombing and death camps. Its systematic mass murder both ways. As alex already mentioned, there was no reason for bombing Dresden other than revenge. Revenge is an immoral barbaric emotion and dertainly not a "consideration" I would expect from high command and state leaders.

In my eyes, both cases constitue a war crime. Just becase you don't see the masses you kill from high up in the air - does not make it more justified. The only difference is (maybe) in numbers.


The correct question to ask is not, what are the effects on the ground that constitute MY definition of warcrime. The correct question is what is the intent and purpose of calling something a warcrime.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn
according to you guys, there is no such thing as a war crime. Civillians are legitimate targets and all's fair at [love and] war.

I may be overlooking something here but I don't see the difference between indiscriminate killing of civillians through carpet bombing and death camps. Its systematic mass murder both ways. As alex already mentioned, there was no reason for bombing Dresden other than revenge. Revenge is an immoral barbaric emotion and dertainly not a "consideration" I would expect from high command and state leaders.

In my eyes, both cases constitue a war crime. Just becase you don't see the masses you kill from high up in the air - does not make it more justified. The only difference is (maybe) in numbers.

I feel sorry for anyone that is incapable to distinguish between gassing and torturing millions versus bombing a city from the air to shorten the war.

The Germans tortured, buried alive(my uncle was on his way to a mass burial site on top of a death wagon but he managed to escape and he was certainly alive), shot, gassed, injected with poison’s, raped, operated on without anesthetics, burned alive, etc.

The allies didn’t start the war it was dealt to them and they did their utmost to stop it. I’m grateful that there were people that were willing to lay down their lives so that I have my freedom. Anyone can criticize any action in retrospect or hindsight but even that has its limits.

Your argument is that during the course of the war the allies made one mistake and that was the bombing of one city or perhaps your argument is that no bombs should have been dropped in Germany for fear that a civilian might have been killed. If that had been the case I’m fairly certain that you wouldn’t even have made it to be gleam in your father’s eyes.

Quite frakly I’d be ashamed of myself if I thought that the Germans and Allies were the same fellows.

[richcrassus]

Ive watched many documentaries from holocaust survivors, and they blamed the non nazis MORE than the actual SS foot soldiors, they said if the poles and slovaks and latvians etc... didnt 'help' the nazis in finding and rounding up jews, the nazis would have managed to 'only' kill maybe 1 or 2 million, but since most of the general population of the countries that the nazis occupied gave up their jews and organised round ups etc... 6m were murdered.

[richcrassus]

Ive watched many documentaries from holocaust survivors, and they blamed the non nazis MORE than the actual SS foot soldiors, they said if the poles and slovaks and latvians etc... didnt 'help' the nazis in finding and rounding up jews, the nazis would have managed to 'only' kill maybe 1 or 2 million, but since most of the general population of the countries that the nazis occupied gave up their jews and organised round ups etc... 6m were murdered.

[L@mplighterM]

It’s off to the eye doctor I’m seeing double. The Germans had no trouble recruiting individuals that were more than willing to round up Jews for a fee wherever they went.

[alexbmn]

SharonB would you prefer that Soviet and US armies had not bomb German cities and in turn incurr hundreds of thousands of casualties trying to clear out every building? And how can you ever say that after seeing tenths millions of their countrymen killed ,their land devastated, the Soviet Soldiers werent justified in desiring revenge. Wanting revenge is a normal human emotion, and I cannot ,and never will understand the Israeli mindset which doesnt seem to desire it against an enemy that kills their children in their beds. If ever the Israelis would bomb Palestinian cities I will feel no more sorry for the Palestinians then I feel for the Germans. Yesterday's civilian is tomorow's suicide bomber.

[alexbmn]

"To begin with, the mentality of most Israelis, including opponents of the government, is thoroughly bourgeois and democratic. Because bourgeois democrats are primarily motivated by the desire for comfort and security, they are politically moderate on the one hand, and constitutionally opposed to the hazards of revolution on the other.

But since these bourgeois democrats are Jewish--and many are religious--they comprise the most anti-revolutionary species imaginable: Jewish humanists.

Jewish humanists are really Christians without the Christian G-d. They practice with a vengeance what Christians preach: "love your enemies," "turn the other cheek," "do not resist evil." Hence it has been said that contemporary Israel is the only Christian nation on earth! When it comes to loving one's enemies, turning the other cheek, and not resisting evil, present-day Israel has no equal in the annals of human history."

[alexbmn]

Hamas agrees to a Hudna to rearm and reorganize,but the retards at Maariv and Ediot Ahronot post blue stripes on their papers as if its a holiday. "Yay a three month lease on life .hoorAY. "

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by alexbmn
SharonB would you prefer that Soviet and US armies had not bomb German cities and in turn incurr hundreds of thousands of casualties trying to clear out every building? And how can you ever say that after seeing tenths millions of their countrymen killed ,their land devastated, the Soviet Soldiers werent justified in desiring revenge. Wanting revenge is a normal human emotion, and I cannot ,and never will understand the Israeli mindset which doesnt seem to desire it against an enemy that kills their children in their beds. If ever the Israelis would bomb Palestinian cities I will feel no more sorry for the Palestinians then I feel for the Germans. Yesterday's civilian is tomorow's suicide bomber.


Seems to me that people that think along those lines have a death wish.

The dodo was a big tasty bird that had no natural enemies and so when humans came along they jumped right into the cooking pot. Of course the dodo became extinct and so did the trees that depended on the birds digestive tract to soften them up.

You might define the creature as a bird that was the ultimate pacifist and that led to the end of the species. Like it or not its still survival of the species, kill or be killed and that’s life. Pacifists are just individuals that want to rewire humanity to what they imagine humans should be like.

Civilization has tamed many of us but to some extent but many haven’t left the jungle yet.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Hitler was evil and so was his followers and I believe that the bombing of Dresden must have saved at least one life on the allies side. If it did then it was most certainly worth it! [/B]
So L@mplighterM [and alexbm] advocate that all's fair in love and war. The ends (winning the war) justifies any and all means, including bombing of civilian targets and the use of WMD like nuclear bombs - everything goes.
Notice I did not say that the ends is “saving soldiers’ lives” because calling off the dropping of the atom bombs does not incur greater casualties. You can avoid both by ending the war through negotiations and an agreement. What you did forfeit was unconditional surrender of your enemy. So what’s on the scale is decisive victory vs. innocent lives.

Well, I hold a different pov. I call myself a humanitarian (I am not a pacifist, nor do I call L@mplighterM one according to his opinions). Humanitarianism is not just a nice good hearted (or bleeding hearted) term one can wave to show how one is moral. Humanitarianism is a well defined philosophy which asserts that human life is more than a mere physical existence. An integral component of human life is a set of values and ideals which put human welfare above other interests such as nationalism.
Humanitarianism acknowledges the existence and even necessity of armed conflicts and wars as means to resolve nation-scale conflicts. Humanitarianism even acknowledges that innocent casualties may result from military operations. Humanitarianism vehemently rejects putting civilians in the same basket as military personnel, making both legitimate targets of military operations.

Humanitarianism puts higher value on civilian life than military personnel. This is true regardless of sides, meaning civilians of the enemy have higher priority then your own soldiers. This does not mean you can squander the lives of your soldiers. It means you should not deter from risking the lives of your soldiers, if the goal is saving innocent lives.

Lets see an example:
A military operation is planned against an enemy base. Between our base and the enemy’s base is a civilian village. If we take the shortest route to the target, we put civilian lives at risk since we’d have to cross the village. Humanitarianism dictates that the civilian village is considered off limits to any military personnel and the plan must be drawn so our forces circumvent the village, even if this means increasing the danger to our forces. In extreme cases, when circumventing the village spells certain failure, the whole operation should be abandoned.

This is different then the case where the operation commences and our forces encounter civilians in an unexpected location (say inside the military base), resulting in innocent casualties.

Humanitarianism also upholds its standards regardless of the enemy ones. Meaning you should follow Humanitarian guidelines even if your enemy abandoned them and attacks civilian targets. Humanitarianism does not acknowledge revenge or as legitimate consideration in planning military operations.

In the case of the atomic bomb and Dresden, I believe these operations should not be approved under any circumstances. The cost of disapproving these operations may be the realization that the war against Japan could not conclude in unconditional surrender of the enemy, and another settlement needs to be reached in order to end hostilities.

For the one who ask what’s the point of defining certain actions as war crimes, the purpose is the same as defining other crimes: to point out where Humanitarian laws were broken and bringing the violators to justice through the legal system, so no one could say in the future “I didn’t know I was braking the law”.

[L@mplighterM]

Thank G_d that you aren’t in charge of keeping me or mine alive. Well there are a lot of flowers growing in Israel so perhaps I can persuade my friend to hand out flowers to the Palestinians when she visits there next month.

Make love not war!

@))~~~>~~~>~~~~ <-------------For the Palestinians! *LOL*

By the way I don’t consider the Arab/Muslims human and that goes for their supporters as well. When they support the intentional killing of children, men and women calling it self-defense they forfeit the right to classify themselves as humans.

The trouble with your philosophy is that it exists only in dreams and wishful thinking so perhaps if there is an afterlife it might work there.

In any event my way has a proven track record because it ends wars. It’s not my fault that our leaders sweep a problem under the rug until it becomes a major problem. Guys like Hitler, Arafat, Stalin; etc could have been eliminated when they were in their infancy of power.

A twisted perverted homosexual like Hitler should have been turned to dust the second that he started his anti Semitic rhetoric. That’s Humanitarianism!

And I would argue until the end of time itself that the bombing of Dresden was a Humanitarian act because it was an action taken to end lives. Perhaps a 100,000 +/- Germans were killed but I’m certain that it could very well have been instrumental in saving 1,000,000’s of lives.

[alexbmn]

he he he yeah I guess the allies should have negotiated with Hitler too,right? Maybe they were wrong in demanding unconditional surrender form Germany ? Ok and the Japanese code of Bushido meant that Japan would fight until death,no ? ( oh my God how do you defeat people who are willing to kill themselves for their cause, in case you forgot they were using suicide bombs. Oh my God that means there was no military solution. Oh wait there was.) What can I say I really couldnt disagree more that policy of "humanitarianism. "

[humus_sapiens]

I agree with you in general (Nazis = shahids = samurai, etc.), but I am not prepared to target civilians. If a terrorist hides behind family and neighboors and there is no way to kill him alone - sorry, had to do it, that's collateral damage. If there is a funeral or march in Gaza with masks, AK47s and hate speech up to the sky - they asked for it.

But I am against carpet bombing or dropping A-bombs on civilians. Even realizing that many of their children will grow up to try to kill my children - still, I am comletely against indiscriminant mass murder.

BTW, the rules of war have changed since the times of Dresden and Hiroshima. It simply won't fly today.

[L@mplighterM]

Rules? Pakistan threatened to send a nuke to India (as a first strike) not too long ago. I don’t think that N.Korea would hesitate in sending a nuclear bomb or two to the US. I suppose that we can shut down NORAD and other early warning systems because we have rules against killing civilians.

Screw the rules because in the end they won’t protect those I hold dear. War will never be reduced to a chess game where only the pieces get eliminated. Civilians die in wars that’s a given fact!

One terrorist hiding in a city does not justify wiping out the city. If one terrorist is shielded by a hundred or more civilians and they are intentionally shielding him, take him out. Self defense IMO.

If we want to eliminate terrorism then you have to play the game with the same rules they use.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Rules? Pakistan threatened to send a nuke to India (as a first strike) not too long ago. I don’t think that N.Korea would hesitate in sending a nuclear bomb or two to the US. I suppose that we can shut down NORAD and other early warning systems because we have rules against killing civilians.

Screw the rules because in the end they won’t protect those I hold dear. War will never be reduced to a chess game where only the pieces get eliminated. Civilians die in wars that’s a given fact!

One terrorist hiding in a city does not justify wiping out the city. If one terrorist is shielded by a hundred or more civilians and they are intentionally shielding him, take him out. Self defense IMO.

If we want to eliminate terrorism then you have to play the game with the same rules they use.

I agree with everything you wrote but the last sentence. Also, I agree that eliminating those who want to indiscriminantly kill innocents on purpose is humantirian act.