Israel MUST DEMAND any "Palestine" include part of the Sinai [Archive]

Pharaoh

07-16-2003, 06:52 AM

"Israel MUST DEMAND any "Palestine" include part of the Sinai
Why?
Because eventually the Pal Arab population will grow, and they will want to expand, and claim "divine right" to do so. And somehow Israel will be told by the world that it must give the Arabs more land...back to full 67, or to 48."

Well lets start by clearing things first.
Israel pulling back to the 67 borders is a fundamental factor for peace.
But as it seems the Palestinians are into horrible pressure and seems that they will accept far less even though the UN gives the palestinians the right to get back all of their conquered lands.
The UN also give the exiled palestinians the right to return but ofcourse Israel also didnt approve on this resolution by claiming that the return of those exiled as a result of Israel terror will cause the "destruction of Israel" which was created itself by violence and terror.
But anyway if a agreement is reached by the Palestinians and the Israelis i dont think there will be any demands from the palestinians to aquire more lands.Anyway the Israelis have the right then to refuse because an agrement is already been reached.

"So, Israel MUST DEMAND that any new Pal state include a large portion of the Sinai Penninula"

Err...Sinai belongs to Egypt not Palestine nor Israel.
Your not making sense here.

"AND, they can have a "right of return" to the Sinai, too"

Probelm is that they werent kicked out from Sinai but from Palestine.So how could they have a right to return to a place they didnt even been into???

"Protect Israel by making sure that the Pal Arabs get land from their Arab "brothers" too."

As you know the Arabs ceased to be 1 united body almost a century ago.
So you shouldnt count on what the Arabs will do to their brothers.
Anyway the Palestinians dont want to go anywhere else,they wanna stay in their homes and in their villages just like what the jews want.
If each one must help his brother then the Israelis should immigrate to their brothers in the US when Israel becomes crowded that way we can be sure that Israel wont make new settelments as usual in the Palestinian territories.

NewsGuy

07-16-2003, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Pharaoh
Well lets start by clearing things first.
Israel pulling back to the 67 borders is a fundamental factor for peace.

Not really. Actually, it would be a fundamental recipe for a never ending war.

I wonder why it is so hard for many Arabs to comprehend that they lost all the wars they started and must now pay a price for their actions.

I've never understood where so many Arabs get the idea that there are no consequences to their actions. Instead, they believe that Arabs can attack Israel, attempt to massacre all its Jewish citizens, and when the Arabs lose, then everything should be restored as if nothing happened.

The UN also give the exiled palestinians the right to return but ofcourse Israel also didnt approve on this resolution by claiming that the return of those exiled as a result of Israel terror will cause the "destruction of Israel" which was created itself by violence and terror.

It's not a "claim." Muslim terrorism is a global fact in Israel and all over the world.

Israel itself was created by a UN resolution and on the day following the UN vote, as you know, the Arabs launched a war of genocide against the citizens of Israel. Since then, the defeated Arabs never stopped their terrorism against Israeli and American civilians.

But anyway if a agreement is reached by the Palestinians and the Israelis i dont think there will be any demands from the palestinians to aquire more lands.
But in fact, the Father of Modern Terrorism, Yasser Arafat, has declared that any agreement with Israel would simply be a ruse to continue the Arab dream of ethnically cleansing the Middle East of its Jewish population.

That's why any peace agreement with the Palestinians and, indeed, with any other Arabs is totally useless. The only thing that has been effective against Arab violence is brute force and military deterrence.

Probelm is that they werent kicked out from Sinai but from Palestine.So how could they have a right to return to a place they didnt even been into???
Well, which Palestinian city has been rebuilt in the Sinai, then?

It is no secret that other Arabs despise the Palestinians, treat them like subhumans and second-class citizens and deny them the right to live where they please.

If each one must help his brother then the Israelis should immigrate to their brothers in the US when Israel becomes crowded that way we can be sure that Israel wont make new settelments as usual in the Palestinian territories.
Or maybe Jews should be allowed to live freely and own land and have equal rights in neighboring Arab countries?

And when exactly will Israelis from Egypt be welcomed back to reclaim their homes?

wellofvow

07-16-2003, 10:02 AM

With all due respect for liberalism and the right to have one's say, I do not understand why "Pharaoh" is posting to a discussion group like the Israel Forum.

"Pharaoh" is simply disseminating the very old hat Arab propaganda line. It may have worked 5 years ago on CNN, and it still works on the BBC, but on Israel Forum?

"Pharaoh" didn't even get me angry. All of his/her "of course"es were utterly boring, because anyone who lives in a country with a free press, and with a government that doesn't imprison reporters who report news that the government does not approve of, knows them to be lies, "of course".

I hope that nobody tries to reason with "Pharaoh". Perhaps if he/she is just ignored completely, he/she will stop posting and boring me, and let us discuss issues more to the point of this particular discussion group. I am sure that "Pharaoh" has plenty of places on internet to post his/her- views and they will be welcomed as great wisdom. Not here. Go away.

MGB8

07-16-2003, 02:57 PM

Pharoh's posting here is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing that goes on here, in a way, besides us simply gathering the accesible historical data that proves the Pal-Arab PR Lines wrong.

Most of the posting here is either preaching to the choir, or dealing with PR spin-meisters like yehudi.

Pharoh seems to be what he claims. The enemy. A person with opposite views, partially based on reality, partially not, but wholly based on self-interest.

This is the person that we need to reach - man to man, enemy to enemy. Until the Arabs understand that we arent' going anywhere, and more than that, that we will severely punsih their acts against us, that this war that they want so much will have DIRE CONSEQUENCES for them....until they truly UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE this....there will never be peace in the region.

We need them to start taking an anylitical look at their action and their beliefs. I'll add which ones in other posts.

Pharaoh

07-16-2003, 03:02 PM

Newsguy,
"Not really. Actually, it would be a fundamental recipe for a never ending war."

Ofcourse your saying so because you dont want to give up the lands your government took.
The Israeli government dont want just to held most of the 67 borders but to make settelments due to the "increase of the population of jews" so the palestinains must suffer ofcourse from that.

"I wonder why it is so hard for many Arabs to comprehend that they lost all the wars they started and must now pay a price for their actions.
I've never understood where so many Arabs get the idea that there are no consequences to their actions. Instead, they believe that Arabs can attack Israel, attempt to massacre all its Jewish citizens, and when the Arabs lose, then everything should be restored as if nothing happened."

Arabs started all the wars?Your sure about that?
Wasnt the 1948 war a direct response to the war declared by the newly established state of Israel in a fellow arab country?
Wasnt the 1956 war started by Israel and Britain and France?
Wasnt the 1967 war started by Israel?Yes i know the war was almost a sure thing but still it was Israel who started the war.
Wasnt the 1973 war an attempt to retake all the taken arab lands?
Wasnt the 1982 war started by Israel?
As for all wars lost...every war was lost for a reason,mainly due to the corrupt regimes of the arab countries.
Nevertheless the 1973 war wasnt lost by Egypt it was a tactical victory.And im sure your thinking right now "Brainwashed,brainwashed!" save it im not.I read from many sources Egyptian/neutral/Israeli and im convienced of my view.

"It's not a "claim." Muslim terrorism is a global fact in Israel and all over the world."

My dear there is nothing called "muslim terrorsim" it is called "muslim fundamentalists terrorsim"
Islam is against terror and its totaly is against Bin laden actions.
As for the common question "then why Hamas is commiting terrorism?"
I believe because they dont have any other way to fight your occupation.
The palestinains dont have any other way to fight.
You know...no airforce...no anti air force...no RPG's...no nothing!
Deppresion and anger is the only weapon Hamas has and your government actions helped in rising the popularity of Hamas in Palestine.
Hamas is only an effect to a cause.

"Israel itself was created by a UN resolution and on the day following the UN vote, as you know, the Arabs launched a war of genocide against the citizens of Israel. Since then, the defeated Arabs never stopped their terrorism against Israeli and American civilians"

The creation of Israel itself was an act of war!
lets say im here in Egypt and then one day some Egyptians rise somewhere and say Sinai belong to us and we will make our independant state.What do you think will be the logical responce of the Egyptian government (or any other)?
As for the UN revolution You do know that the creation of Israel and its approval by the UN wouldnt be possible without the support of Britain-which showed its support long before by the belfour promisse-and by the US where the jewish lobby was going stronger and stronger everyday and it made pressure on President Johnson.
Anyway speaking of UN resolutions and their "right".
You said in the beginning of your post that the palestinians shouldnt get all of their 67 borders ALTHOUGH there is a UN resolution that demand Israel to retreat but do Israel give a damn?NO
And there is another resolution that demands Israel to accept the return of 5 million palestinian refugee who fleed because of the Israeli terror in 1948 and the war of 1967.
Do Israel give a damn about this resolution?NO

Arafat you may not know was very important to Israel he did something very spectacular to the state of Israel but what he did wasnt fully understood and maybe 1 day the magnitude of his peacefull talks with Israel would be understood.

"Well, which Palestinian city has been rebuilt in the Sinai, then?
It is no secret that other Arabs despise the Palestinians, treat them like subhumans and second-class citizens and deny them the right to live where they please"

Making a city for Palestinians that you talk about doesnt mean that Egypt accept to give the nationality to 5 million palestinians who were kicked by Israel!
Anyway i never heard of this "city" that your referring to.
I dont think the people in any country treat harshly the palestinian people,maybe the government but not the people.

"Or maybe Jews should be allowed to live freely and own land and have equal rights in neighboring Arab countries?"

Humm that will happen when those rights are given to the occupied palestinians,and when the Israeli arabs are treated equally with the jews....were waiting Israel action so to speak...untill then...

"And when exactly will Israelis from Egypt be welcomed back to reclaim their homes?"

Yes as soon as the 5 million palestinians be welcomed back to reclaim their homes in Israel....untill then...

Mediocrates

07-16-2003, 03:29 PM

From the above post:

The creation of Israel itself was an act of war!

There is really no purpose in pursuing this discussion any further. I suggest Paroh investigate any of the thousands of antisemitic websites out there.

BTW Paroh employs a common technique of antisemitic internet posters and bloggers and that's to bury each post in a flurry of dozens and dozens on unconnected thoughts expecting any and all comers to waste time responding to each and every one of them.

MGB8

07-16-2003, 03:49 PM

Mediocretes,

I am less suspicious, maybe naively.

I think that Pharoh is just an Arab who has discovered the world of free-speech (the internet) and is now just being exposed to the ideas of the other side.

I think that reaching men like pharoh - men who hate Israel and its existence from everything that was taught to them as children - that speaking directly to the enemy is what may one day save the region.

He simply doesn't know that Israel was created on Purchased land and land that was owned by the British. He thinks his claim (based on exagerrated ingo) that "Arabs lived here for a long time" is enough to EQUAL OWNERSHIP RIGHTS. Of course, he hasn't really examined his beliefs.

That's another great thing - he asks us to examine our beliefs (which we do over and over and over again - INVITING the opposite views here so that we may seek the truth) whereas he seems, for now at least, COMPLTELY UNWILLING TO DO SO - TO BE AN ADULT, RATIONAL HUMAN.

But maybe as he is exposed to more and more truth, he will be forced to view things instead of as a brainwashed child, as a rational adult. Instead of emotionally thinking "death to the Jews" - he will be able to honestly evaluate whether the actions of people who think like him actually do any good for the Arab people - or whether they are simply being manipulated by their leadership.

He doesn't even understand why he hates Israel...only that he knows that he should because that is what he was taught. This is the person that needs to see the things written here the most.

Originally posted by Mediocrates
From the above post:

There is really no purpose in pursuing this discussion any further. I suggest Paroh investigate any of the thousands of antisemitic websites out there.

BTW Paroh employs a common technique of antisemitic internet posters and bloggers and that's to bury each post in a flurry of dozens and dozens on unconnected thoughts expecting any and all comers to waste time responding to each and every one of them.

MGB8

07-16-2003, 03:50 PM

Pharoh,

the problem with your analogy is that when Israel was created, Arabs didn't own "Palestine" - they were tenants of GREAT BRITAIN, which owned the land. Do you acknowledge this history, or will you hide your head in the sand and believe what you want to believe.

Pharaoh

07-16-2003, 04:03 PM

I will post after few hours...

Communication

07-16-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by MGB8
Mediocretes,

I am less suspicious, maybe naively.

I think that Pharoh is just an Arab who has discovered the world of free-speech (the internet) and is now just being exposed to the ideas of the other side.

Don't you think Pharoah speaks english just a little too well for that?

MGB8

07-16-2003, 05:27 PM

Maybe. Certainly its unlikely that he isn't an American...but he's likely an Arab-American. He doesn't write like he is English.

Originally posted by Communication
Don't you think Pharoah speaks english just a little too well for that?

Communication

07-16-2003, 05:52 PM

He may or may not have been educated outside of Egypt, but he is educated and I doubt that he's just now discovering the internet. IN any event, I'm reading through these threads and I'm battling myself not to get involved in any of them. He already ignored my post about the Weizmen-Feisal agreement, which was easy for me to post as a test case to see how much he is willing to respond to things that don't directly feed the agenda of the Arab narrative. Most of what he posts here is pure garbage, but like Medio said, he's throwing out such an enormous amount of it that it would be too time instensive to go through it all. I spent two years on an Egyptian forum and I walked away with very little satisfaction from the experience. I connected with perhaps two or three people, but spent most of time being inundated with lies and abuse. When it comes right down to it, I think you are wasting your time arguing any point other than Israel exists and he must deal with it because those Jews are not going anywhere. Israelis have nowhere else to go and Jews will not live under Muslim rule again, no matter how much he wants to pretend that we had it so good back then. His only goal here is to demoralize the Jewish people. I've been down that road and I don't want to go down it again. I don't need to prove that there is justice on my side.

wellofvow

07-17-2003, 12:41 AM

It was very interesting to read the reaction of some others as to the Pharaoh postings.

After thinking about it, I do not agree with MGBB that it is important for us to hear what the "other side" thinks IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. Pharaoh simply cannot be "just an Arab" who recently discovered internet. If he really is writing from Egypt, the extremely repressive Egyptian government would not allow "just an Arab" to access internet. Also, Egypt is a very poor country, and just ordinary people have no access to the educational level that Pharaoh shows through his use of English.

Pharaoh's repeated use of the phrase "of course" when attempting a Big PR Lie, PLUS his repeated claims of fictitious UN resolutions that never existed, PLUS the tone of his writing and absolute confidence that HIS statements are THE truth, PLUS his fairly good English and method of debate - all of these are strong persuaders that he is either a plant on this Forum by Egyptian Intelligence, or a well-trained PR agitator with some radical group.

Please note his absolutist statement that Israel started all the wars, 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982.

Note that he claims that Britain supported the establishment of Israel in the UN partition vote in 1947, when in actuality, it abstained.

And did anyone else wonder about the sense of debating with a person who starts a sentence "You do know...", that continues that some "President Johnson" was in office at the time of the "creation of Israel"??!! Andrew Johnson or Lyndon B. Johnson?

Since we know that he is working from some history textbook that has been - ah, shall we say - "revised", we should understand that he is most like an extraterrestial, with beliefs very alien to other earthlings.

As I see it, we only have 2 options to choose from as to who this poster really is: 1) a plant; 2) a well-trained, brainwashed individual who has been only exposed to the Egyptian rewrite of history.

I agree with Mediocrates - Pharaoh has nothing to teach us, not even as MGBB suggests "know the enemy". His input is not even up-to-date, but very stale. I rather think that the true purpose of his posts is to distract us and waste our time. He has not added anything in his posts, just the repeated denials that Israel was created by the UN, and that Israel has a right to defend its civilians, and repeats the very tired argument that "Palestinians are victims, so can do whatever they please".

Again, he has nothing to contribute. He is distracting us. He would love nothing better than to promote dissention among us. He has made it plain that HIS goal is not to learn from anyone else, but that HIS goal is to educate us.

I say, get rid of him. As Mediocrates says, he has plenty of other places to post (one hopes not some other one that supports Israel).

Communication

07-17-2003, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by wellofvow
It was very interesting to read the reaction of some others as to the Pharaoh postings.

After thinking about it, I do not agree with MGBB that it is important for us to hear what the "other side" thinks IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. Pharaoh simply cannot be "just an Arab" who recently discovered internet. If he really is writing from Egypt, the extremely repressive Egyptian government would not allow "just an Arab" to access internet. Also, Egypt is a very poor country, and just ordinary people have no access to the educational level that Pharaoh shows through his use of English.

Pharaoh's repeated use of the phrase "of course" when attempting a Big PR Lie, PLUS his repeated claims of fictitious UN resolutions that never existed, PLUS the tone of his writing and absolute confidence that HIS statements are THE truth, PLUS his fairly good English and method of debate - all of these are strong persuaders that he is either a plant on this Forum by Egyptian Intelligence, or a well-trained PR agitator with some radical group.

Please note his absolutist statement that Israel started all the wars, 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982.

Note that he claims that Britain supported the establishment of Israel in the UN partition vote in 1947, when in actuality, it abstained.

And did anyone else wonder about the sense of debating with a person who starts a sentence "You do know...", that continues that some "President Johnson" was in office at the time of the "creation of Israel"??!! Andrew Johnson or Lyndon B. Johnson?

Since we know that he is working from some history textbook that has been - ah, shall we say - "revised", we should understand that he is most like an extraterrestial, with beliefs very alien to other earthlings.

As I see it, we only have 2 options to choose from as to who this poster really is: 1) a plant; 2) a well-trained, brainwashed individual who has been only exposed to the Egyptian rewrite of history.

I agree with Mediocrates - Pharaoh has nothing to teach us, not even as MGBB suggests "know the enemy". His input is not even up-to-date, but very stale. I rather think that the true purpose of his posts is to distract us and waste our time. He has not added anything in his posts, just the repeated denials that Israel was created by the UN, and that Israel has a right to defend its civilians, and repeats the very tired argument that "Palestinians are victims, so can do whatever they please".

Again, he has nothing to contribute. He is distracting us. He would love nothing better than to promote dissention among us. He has made it plain that HIS goal is not to learn from anyone else, but that HIS goal is to educate us.

I say, get rid of him. As Mediocrates says, he has plenty of other places to post (one hopes not some other one that supports Israel).

Over the top.

yehudi

07-17-2003, 03:07 AM

I'm amazed that when an egyptian comes to share his thoughts with you he is not even met with hatred, but most of all with condescension.

moeover, instead of even talking to him, you talk about him... using the third person.

"just an Arab" who recently discovered internet
He may or may not have been educated outside of Egypt
Pharoh seems to be what he claims.
How is it that you fell so low, so deep in arrogance?

Pharaoh .
Note you'll need a very very thick skin to survive here.
I advise you to do the same I did => use the "ignore function" to remove the insulters and concentrate on one or two posters that are worth debating with. Note most posters are in fact americans, not israelis and I'd rather consider talking with israelis if I were you. If you find someone interesting using the private messaging system is fine too.

If you can hold on, you'll probably learn a lot posting here..

One last thing : welcome, Pharaoh :)

.

Communication

07-17-2003, 03:17 AM

Originally posted by yehudi
I'm amazed that when an egyptian comes to share his thoughts with you he is not even met with hatred, but most of all with condescension.

moeover, instead of even talking to him, you talk about him... using the third person.

How is it that you fell so low, so deep in arrogance?

Pharaoh .
Note you'll need a very very thick skin to survive here.
I advise you to do the same I did => use the "ignore function" to remove the insulters and concentrate on one or two posters that are worth debating with. Note most posters are in fact americans, not israelis and I'd rather consider talking with israelis if I were you. If you find someone interesting using the private messaging system is fine too.

If you can hold on, you'll probably learn a lot posting here..

One last thing : welcome, Pharaoh :)

.

Other than talking about him in the third person, how is what I wrote condescending?

Communication

07-17-2003, 03:18 AM

By the way, for both Yehudi and Pharoah, there are/were two Arab posters on here from the ME who people on here have been having very good conversations with.

Pharaoh

07-17-2003, 03:40 AM

Its amazing what i read here.
There are already some theories that i work for the government and im a "cell" or whatever.
I really though it was only the arabs who talk about "conspiracy theories" but then again i was proved wrong!

I dont know why people call me "the enemy" have i ever declared war on anyone in this forum?!
Has Israel declared war on Egypt?
Maybe i dont know,i was sleeping!
I'm not here to "distract" anyone,im just debating.
And yes this forum is called "Israelforum" but i thought everybody is welcomed in it.I made sure that this was the case cause if not i wouldnt be here.

And people you really have a very bad idea about the situation in Egypt,let me say this once:
No body trust the government and No body believes the things that shes saying.
But saying that were "brainwashed" is complete nonesense.
If I believe in something that doesnt mean im brainwashed.
If you believe in something that doesnt mean your brainwashed.
A brainwashed is who only get his information from 1 source and i dont even read the local papers.
On the other hand seems that some people here Do get their information just from jewish sources.
Some people here dont want to even think about the things that im saying,its like they are a computer when it sees a ridle it instantly tries to solve it with the information at its disposale without thinking that there could be other information that can also solve the ridle.

Yehudi,
Many thanks for your post and i hope you received my private message.

Mediocrates

07-17-2003, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by Pharaoh
But saying that were "brainwashed" is complete nonesense.
If I believe in something that doesnt mean im brainwashed.

You're right, you're not brainwashed you're not that dull. You're a propagandist who is parroting the same old antisemitic nonsense you can read in the Arab press and 'indy' news outlets the world over. Here look at this:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0703/nirenstein_2003_07_10.php3

It was already posted here but it's so clear it needs repeating.

Communication

07-17-2003, 04:32 AM

Originally posted by Pharaoh
Its amazing what i read here.
There are already some theories that i work for the government and im a "cell" or whatever.
I really though it was only the arabs who talk about "conspiracy theories" but then again i was proved wrong!

I dont know why people call me "the enemy" have i ever declared war on anyone in this forum?!
Has Israel declared war on Egypt?
Maybe i dont know,i was sleeping!
I'm not here to "distract" anyone,im just debating.
And yes this forum is called "Israelforum" but i thought everybody is welcomed in it.I made sure that this was the case cause if not i wouldnt be here.

And people you really have a very bad idea about the situation in Egypt,let me say this once:
No body trust the government and No body believes the things that shes saying.
But saying that were "brainwashed" is complete nonesense.
If I believe in something that doesnt mean im brainwashed.
If you believe in something that doesnt mean your brainwashed.
A brainwashed is who only get his information from 1 source and i dont even read the local papers.
On the other hand seems that some people here Do get their information just from jewish sources.
Some people here dont want to even think about the things that im saying,its like they are a computer when it sees a ridle it instantly tries to solve it with the information at its disposale without thinking that there could be other information that can also solve the ridle.

Yehudi,
Many thanks for your post and i hope you received my private message.

Pharoah,

Most people realize that Egypt is far more culturally advanced than what it might appear from these posts. Wellofvow was being sarcastic, I may have been misunderstood in what I was trying to convey to MGB8, and I think MGB8 was really just giving you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions. Nobody here thinks that you are a government plant, a member of a radical propaganda cell, or even an alien. And we are all very much aware that Egypt is a relatively technologically advanced country with highly educated people and a big bloated bureaucracy. But, what we are questioning is your willingness to engage in honest debate. Perhaps itâ€™s partially our fault, since you felt the need to respond to a ridiculous thread like Egypt being forced to give up some of the Sinai to the Palestinians. If you are looking to share your perspective on the situation and you in turn are willing to listen and understand our position(s) then this could work for us, even be a good thing. But there is no single truth, not when it comes to history, and certainly not when it comes to religion.

Pharaoh

07-17-2003, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by Communication
Pharoah,

Most people realize that Egypt is far more culturally advanced than what it might appear from these posts. Wellofvow was being sarcastic, I may have been misunderstood in what I was trying to convey to MGB8, and I think MGB8 was really just giving you the benefit of the doubt about your intentions. Nobody here thinks that you are a government plant, a member of a radical propaganda cell, or even an alien. And we are all very much aware that Egypt is a relatively technologically advanced country with highly educated people and a big bloated bureaucracy. But, what we are questioning is your willingness to engage in honest debate. Perhaps itâ€™s partially our fault, since you felt the need to respond to a ridiculous thread like Egypt being forced to give up some of the Sinai to the Palestinians. If you are looking to share your perspective on the situation and you in turn are willing to listen and understand our position(s) then this could work for us, even be a good thing. But there is no single truth, not when it comes to history, and certainly not when it comes to religion.

This was a very constructive post.
I do agree with everything you said.
But i must explain to you i wasnt angry when i first posted in this thread which means everything that i write is what i believe in.
I am most ready to accept anything you say to me as long as it makes sense and if the subject is very important then the presence of unbiased links would be a nice add.
Know that i can somehow prove anything that im saying from links and books that i have read.
So when you read my posts please take notice that i didnt invent the things that im saying.

BTW i didnt ignore you when you talked about King Faisal,i just cant reply to everybody at the same time.
But let us talk about him and his actions laer on.

MGB8

07-17-2003, 08:25 AM

I used the word enemy, and you Pharoah, confirmed it, not by replying, but by stating that in your heart of hearts you believe that Israel should not exist and thus should be destroyed.

These are not the gullible Jews of the past, who will pretend that their enemies are their friends, or at least hold them no ill will.

Pharaoh - believe it or not, you HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED. You have been fed false information by a controlled media for a long, long time.

You know that "Palestine" the roman word that it is, was owned by the Birts and before then by the Turks (and before then by the Mamaluks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Turks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Arabs and before then by the Byantines and before then by the Romans and before then by the Jews.)

You know that it was the Arab nations who took over Gaza and the WB/East Jerusalem. You try to argue both sides - that on one hand there is no united Muslim world (why egypt shouldn't give up part of the Sinai) and on the other hand, when it favors your argument, that it should be considered united.

You try to argue that Israel was made up of just European immigrants, but then argue that "Jews were protected by Muslims for 1400 years" which is also an exagerrated claim - in general Jews lived about as badly under Muslims as they did under Christians - although in different respects.

You ignore the cowardice of the attacks on Israel in 48, and more laughably, on Yom Kippur in 73. You ingore the cowardice of suicide bombings and shooting behind human shields with the argument "what else are they going to do (how about PASSIVE RESISTANCE, or, if they are going to murder, at least show some HONOR and use guerilla tactics that DON'T INVOLVE HIDING BEHIND YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN.)

And you ignore the fact taht islam has been preching the genocide of the Jews since before Hitler, even.

You seem like you have a bright mind - do you have the COURAGE to open it, and look for the real history and truth of the region? To do not what works for your politicians (if you can call them that), but what is best for the Arab/Muslim peoples?

Originally posted by Pharaoh
This was a very constructive post.
I do agree with everything you said.
But i must explain to you i wasnt angry when i first posted in this thread which means everything that i write is what i believe in.
I am most ready to accept anything you say to me as long as it makes sense and if the subject is very important then the presence of unbiased links would be a nice add.
Know that i can somehow prove anything that im saying from links and books that i have read.
So when you read my posts please take notice that i didnt invent the things that im saying.

BTW i didnt ignore you when you talked about King Faisal,i just cant reply to everybody at the same time.
But let us talk about him and his actions laer on.

Pharaoh

07-17-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by MGB8
I used the word enemy, and you Pharoah, confirmed it, not by replying, but by stating that in your heart of hearts you believe that Israel should not exist and thus should be destroyed.

These are not the gullible Jews of the past, who will pretend that their enemies are their friends, or at least hold them no ill will.

Pharaoh - believe it or not, you HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED. You have been fed false information by a controlled media for a long, long time.

You know that "Palestine" the roman word that it is, was owned by the Birts and before then by the Turks (and before then by the Mamaluks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Turks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Arabs and before then by the Byantines and before then by the Romans and before then by the Jews.)

You know that it was the Arab nations who took over Gaza and the WB/East Jerusalem. You try to argue both sides - that on one hand there is no united Muslim world (why egypt shouldn't give up part of the Sinai) and on the other hand, when it favors your argument, that it should be considered united.

You try to argue that Israel was made up of just European immigrants, but then argue that "Jews were protected by Muslims for 1400 years" which is also an exagerrated claim - in general Jews lived about as badly under Muslims as they did under Christians - although in different respects.

You ignore the cowardice of the attacks on Israel in 48, and more laughably, on Yom Kippur in 73. You ingore the cowardice of suicide bombings and shooting behind human shields with the argument "what else are they going to do (how about PASSIVE RESISTANCE, or, if they are going to murder, at least show some HONOR and use guerilla tactics that DON'T INVOLVE HIDING BEHIND YOUR WOMEN AND CHILDREN.)

And you ignore the fact taht islam has been preching the genocide of the Jews since before Hitler, even.

You seem like you have a bright mind - do you have the COURAGE to open it, and look for the real history and truth of the region? To do not what works for your politicians (if you can call them that), but what is best for the Arab/Muslim peoples?

Lets get this straight:Believing whether Israel should or should not exist isnt the point no more.
Egypt didnt think that Israel had the right to existe but still it signed a peace treaty to prevent new wars.
You do know that most Egyptians dont think Israel should existe but that doesnt mean we want to declare war on Israel.
Believing in something different than what your people believe doesnt mean were the enemy.
Its like i dont believe that the creation of the US was "legal" or "justified"-if i may use these words-Because they wiped out the former inhabitants of the continent now does that mean i am the enemy to US?ofcourse not.
Israelians go all the time to Sinai,are they ever attacked?
They arent attacked even though the Egyptians who see them dont acknowledge their right to make their own state on the place of another one.
My dear cousin i am not Brainwashed and if you keep saying i am brainwashed i will cease to debate with you cause it will be useless.I mean you wont listen to anything from a brainwashed man right?Which seems this is the case so far.
The right of Israel to existe or not isnt a fundamental factor in my life or those of my people.On the contrary its very important to your people because they say to themselves "we belong here...its our right...it should be so...it MUST be so"
And let me tell you something about the Egyptian media to clear things up once and for all.
In Egypt a journalist can say whatever he wants except anything bad on the current president or on his dear royal family.
Journaslists arent "brainwashing" and "lying" on the people they write what they believe its true.
I do understand you dont have a clue on this cause maybe its you or another one who said im "exploring the internet" or something like that.And he even said that the government dont allow the people to access the internet freely! totaly laughable.

"You know that "Palestine" the roman word that it is, was owned by the Birts and before then by the Turks (and before then by the Mamaluks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Turks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Arabs and before then by the Byantines and before then by the Romans and before then by the Jews.)"

Ah all was going fine untill you made a mistake,well maybe you didnt notice but the jews werent there first there were other tribes in Palestine and there were the "giants" so were exterminated by the "holy wars" of your ancestors.
Well im sure you just forgot to add it...

Lets clear things up,Egypt "giving" land to anyone is impossible.
Not even a dictator has the guts to do something like that.
Instead i do recommend that your government pull off from all occupied territories if it wants a permenant peace with the palestinians.
But unfortunatly i dont believe that will happen cause i do believe that Sharon thinks like you."Israel should rely on its strenght"
I commented on that earlier so there is no need to repeat myself.

Yes Israel was made by European immigrants,failure to admite that surprises me.Why dont you check the nationalities of the first Israelians??Who came after the Belfour promisse??
Aint Sharon from Poland?Where were Golda meir from?Where were Ben gorian from?Where were Moshe Dyan from?Where they all been born in Palestine?! this will be your first objective.
Another thing i showed you that in 1918 jews were 66,000.
Your second objective will be what was the population of Israel in 1948.

It really makes my heart bleed that you fail to acknowledge the good treatment that christians and jews benefited from the arabs.It really makes me sad,it makes me think like "whats the importance?"

Again:The creation of Israel was itself an act of war.
If you will say the UN approved then again i will tell you that without the help of Britain and the US this wouldnt have been possible.
The attack on yom kippur day wasnt an act of cowardness because there is no rule in the world that forbbid a country from attacking another on its holiday.Especially if the attacker wants to free his lands!
I mean does the Geneva convention prevent such an attack or call it "an act of cowardness"?

You say "Passive resistance"?So now after 5000 years of History you will come and tell a people that their resistance should be "Passive"?!

"And you ignore the fact taht islam has been preching the genocide of the Jews since before Hitler, even."

If Islam did preach genocide against the jews then there wouldnt have been any jews in all middle east and africa and in El andalus and everywhere were muslims rule themselves.
You really REALLY need to check out the relation between muslims and jews during the past centuries.

minusthejihad

07-17-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Pharaoh

You really REALLY need to check out the relation between muslims and jews during the past centuries.

We all know, Jews had Dhimmi status. Yeah, real cool!

danholo

07-17-2003, 10:29 AM

It's like Pharaoh isn't even paying attention to what others are saying here.

To him the Jewish right to self-determination is an act of war. How nice.

And yeah, Palestine wasn't Palestine 2000 years ago. Thanks to anti-Semites the name was changed and this whole farce began.

MGB8

07-17-2003, 10:35 AM

Pharaoh,

Egyptian media isn't free. If you believe that, you really are silly. You don't see ONE pro-Israel article in ANY newspaper from the Arab media - don't you think a Jew would try to write in? Why isn't the opposing view point presented, Pharaoh? BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN"T WANT IT THERE. THAT is how you are "brainwashed" - you have, for all your life, been presented with only ONE view, and have not been exposed to the other views.

As for believing in the Justice of Israel - you are right, it in some way doesn't matter. But as long as the Arab nations refuse to even look at the other side (seriously), as long as you are closed to the truth, there will still be many WHO WANT to rip up the peace treaty, and will do so at the first opportunity (and will have religious justifications, too - you don't have to keep treaties with Jews under Islam, no, at least in one perverse interpretation?)

Desire has everything to do with future peace - if you do not accept Israel's right to exists, you will always seek to destroy it, or support those who do. By doing so, you lead us towards the abyss of Mutually Assured Destruction.

As for preaching genocide, it is from before hitler, but not too long before....really it coincided with Zionism - its more about the Imperialist Idea that once Islam has conquered a land, it can never go back to pre-Islam. But you massively overrated the effectiveness of the Islamic world....Hitler had all the efficiency of Germany, and he got close....the Islamic world has never been close to the machine that was Nazi Germany.

You tried - MANY TIMES - to genocide the Jews - 48, 67, 73. You failed, lost territory, retreated with your tails between your legs, Jews, OUT OF LOVE OF PEACE - GAVE YOU LAND BACK, but the Arab world still cries like Children who cannot accept the consequences of their actions.

Israel could have easily taken Cairo and Damascus, but stopped. You say Jews only do things by strength and want to expand...then why did they stop? Why did they give Egypt the Sinia? Why haven't they just nuked the countries that still refuse to recognize its existance? Because Pharaoh, YOU ARE WRONG. EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IS ONLY HALF-TRUTH.

MGB8

07-17-2003, 10:44 AM

Pharaoh,

one last thing...before the Jews, there were only "city-states" in Canaan....and they warred constantly. Yes, the Jews battled with these groups, but the "Philistines" are a group that means "invaders from the sea" and other groups...some where conquered - not necessarily out of imperialism (who is someone ffor Egypt, famous for its imperialism, and a muslim, also FOUNDED ON IMPERIALIST CONQUEST to lecture on imperialism...lol) But it was the JEWS that gave the area a nationality....it is THE JEWS who have kept praying towards Jerusalem, who THEY MADE THE CAPITOL OF THE REGION, who always were a majority IN THE CAPITOL (as opposed to the region) (note - the Arab capitol of the region was RAMALLAH locally and DAMASCUS regionally....hmmm...interestingly not the "3rd holiest site in Islam - the "farthest mosque" - if it ever was, as opposed to a political contrivance against those awful upstart Jews....)

Originally posted by MGB8
Pharaoh,

Egyptian media isn't free. If you believe that, you really are silly. You don't see ONE pro-Israel article in ANY newspaper from the Arab media - don't you think a Jew would try to write in? Why isn't the opposing view point presented, Pharaoh? BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT DOESN"T WANT IT THERE. THAT is how you are "brainwashed" - you have, for all your life, been presented with only ONE view, and have not been exposed to the other views.

As for believing in the Justice of Israel - you are right, it in some way doesn't matter. But as long as the Arab nations refuse to even look at the other side (seriously), as long as you are closed to the truth, there will still be many WHO WANT to rip up the peace treaty, and will do so at the first opportunity (and will have religious justifications, too - you don't have to keep treaties with Jews under Islam, no, at least in one perverse interpretation?)

Desire has everything to do with future peace - if you do not accept Israel's right to exists, you will always seek to destroy it, or support those who do. By doing so, you lead us towards the abyss of Mutually Assured Destruction.

As for preaching genocide, it is from before hitler, but not too long before....really it coincided with Zionism - its more about the Imperialist Idea that once Islam has conquered a land, it can never go back to pre-Islam. But you massively overrated the effectiveness of the Islamic world....Hitler had all the efficiency of Germany, and he got close....the Islamic world has never been close to the machine that was Nazi Germany.

You tried - MANY TIMES - to genocide the Jews - 48, 67, 73. You failed, lost territory, retreated with your tails between your legs, Jews, OUT OF LOVE OF PEACE - GAVE YOU LAND BACK, but the Arab world still cries like Children who cannot accept the consequences of their actions.

Israel could have easily taken Cairo and Damascus, but stopped. You say Jews only do things by strength and want to expand...then why did they stop? Why did they give Egypt the Sinia? Why haven't they just nuked the countries that still refuse to recognize its existance? Because Pharaoh, YOU ARE WRONG. EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT IS ONLY HALF-TRUTH.

LevyCohen

07-17-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Pharaoh
Lets get this straight:Believing whether Israel should or should not exist isnt the point no more.

if Israel should exist or not IS and has ALWAYS been the point.
If you want to discuss racism, take a good look in the mirror first and get over yours.

Gilgamesh

07-17-2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by wellofvow
I agree with Mediocrates - Pharaoh has nothing to teach us, not even as MGBB suggests "know the enemy". His input is not even up-to-date, but very stale. I rather think that the true purpose of his posts is to distract us and waste our time. He has not added anything in his posts, just the repeated denials that Israel was created by the UN, and that Israel has a right to defend its civilians, and repeats the very tired argument that "Palestinians are victims, so can do whatever they please".

Again, he has nothing to contribute. He is distracting us. He would love nothing better than to promote dissention among us. He has made it plain that HIS goal is not to learn from anyone else, but that HIS goal is to educate us.

I say, get rid of him. As Mediocrates says, he has plenty of other places to post (one hopes not some other one that supports Israel).

I totally agree!!!

Only one point. I see not differance between the Arab Pharoe, "yehudi" and the anti semetic french men, and Takeo the self hating communist treitor. The should all be with their bowels cut open and exposed, tied up, abondend ontop of a termite colony. . ;) Or at least banned. I much rather talk here with people like you, Lamp, Donna, Simon and his fellow Hindu brotherens then wasting time on sorry *ss creatures like "Pharoe".

Also: very important historical note. The anciant egyptions, builders of the pyramid were all extinct and assimulated thousands of years before the Arabs first spawned and infested the ME. All Arabs ever did to Egypt was to burn down the Liberary of Alexandria. Modern Egyptions are Arab. As allways with Arabs, they show off with other people feathers. How typical.

BTW, I've a hanch, an educated guss, the the Pyramids were planned and built by Jews... not pharonic Egyptions. (couple of Jews, BTW, are those who plan and rebuild the WTC, which Arabs just destroyed. Isn't that symbolic to our times?

"Pharaoh" has is just another speck within the Orcish... correction: Arab hord. One out of more the 70 million discasting ants. Babbling and parroting their own propaganda.

Oh... I got some data for you from the CIA world fact book:

Total Area:
Egypt: 1,001,450 sq km
Israel: 20,770 sq km

Population:
Egypt: 70,712,345 (July 2002 est.)
Israel: 6,029,529 (July 2002 est.)
(Not all Jews, Arabs make up 20% of the population)

Infant mortality
Egypt: 58.6 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
Israel: 7.55 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)

Life expectancy at birth
Egypt: total population: 64.05 years
Israel: total population: 78.86 years

Literacy:
Egypt: definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 51.4%
male: 63.6%
female: 38.8% (1995 est.)

Israel: definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 95%
male: 97%
female: 93% (1992 est.)
(Again, the Arabs -up our statistics)

GDP - per capitapurchasing power parity
Egypt: - $3,700 (2001 est.)
Israel: - $19,000 (2002 est.)
_____________________________________________
Israel Economy - overview:
Israel has a technologically advanced market economy with substantial government participation. It depends on imports of crude oil, grains, raw materials, and military equipment. Despite limited natural resources, Israel has intensively developed its agricultural and industrial sectors over the past 20 years. Israel is largely self-sufficient in food production except for grains. Cut diamonds, high-technology equipment , and agricultural products (fruits and vegetables) are the leading exports. The influx of Jewish immigrants from the former USSR during the period 1989-99 coupled with the opening of new markets at the end of the Cold War, energized Israel's economy, which grew rapidly in the early 1990s. But growth began moderating in 1996 when the government imposed tighter fiscal and monetary policies and the immigration bonus petered out. Growth was a strong 6.4% in 2000.
_______________________________________________

Economic aid - recipient:
Egypt: ODA, $2.25 billion (1999)

Internet users:
Egypt: 600,000 (2002) (no kidding!!! it's not a joke!!!)
Israel: 1.94 million (2001)

As for Yom Kippur war... Ariel Sharon and his brave men of the IDF destoryed the Egyption Army. Only a direct explicit threat of the USSR in intervention togather with SERIOUS amrican pressure, prevented Sharon from completing the encylament of the Egyption 3rd Army on the Egyption side of the suez channel. Had Sharon finnish the enveloping the Egyption 3rd Army, the road to Cairo would have been open for the IDF to march on into the city.

For some reason, in Egypt, the war history of the 3rd day of war onwared of the Yom Kippur war, is a heavly guarded state seacret... I wonder why... :rolleyes:

Despite all the aid the anti semetic soviet union could give to the Arabs, men money and weapons, they lost each and every war with us Jews... a food for thought about the true road to peace with an Arab, isn't it? (clue: bash the out of him, till he get the message through his extra thick skull).

Leon

07-18-2003, 01:43 AM

Well lets start by clearing things first.
"Israel pulling back to the 67 borders is a fundamental factor for peace

No the fundamental factor of peace is for the arab-world to stop their incitment and hatred... particularly the incitment and hatred perpetrated by Yasser Arafat. Arab intellectuals must condem homicide bombings for what they are- morally wrong- not tactically wrong. Arabs and Palestinians must come to realise that nothing justifies the murder of innocents- not even occupation. There are many people around the world whose situation is by far worse than that of the Palestinians- yet they do not resort to such barbaric tactics.

The day this happens, is the day when Israel pulls back to the borders of 1967.

even though the UN gives the palestinians the right to get back all of their conquered lands.
The UN also give the exiled palestinians the right to return
"

Where does the UN grant the Palestinians the right of return? Please point it out. Under various UN covenants refugees must be resettled and integrated in their new lands. In this case the refugees have been lingering in camps in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt for the past 50 years. These refugees left because the same Arab leaders of the above Arab countries urged them to leave. Therefore this strengthens the fact that the ultimate responsbility for refugees lies with these countries.

Israel managed to settle 800,000 Jewish refugees from arab countries. Why couldnt the arab states settle 650 000 arab refugees? Why are they still in camps and why has the figure increased to 4 million?

NewsGuy

07-19-2003, 01:05 PM

I'm glad to have our friend from Egypt give us the chance to review some very basic facts relating to the Arab/Israeli conflict. We might take a lot of this for granted, but there are many people who are pretty much clueless about these topics, so our Egyptian friend is actually doing us a good service.

Originally posted by Pharaoh
The Israeli government dont want just to held most of the 67 borders but to make settelments due to the "increase of the population of jews" so the palestinains must suffer ofcourse from that.

Right, Israel's border should extend far beyond the '67 border to include all of the Jewish homeland.

But the Palestinian suffering is purely self-inflicted as a result of their primitive culture of violence, racism, other forms of discrimination, and terrorism. This, combined with an overpopulation problem and high rate of illiteracy, as well as government corruption (like in other Arab countries), has led to Palestinian suffering.

To put it very simply, the Arab culture advocates making bombs, not making a living. This is at the crux of the problem, and it is not the fault of anyone but the Palestinians and their Arab brothers.

Arabs started all the wars?Your sure about that?
Wasnt the 1948 war a direct response to the war declared by the newly established state of Israel in a fellow arab country?

Yes, of course the Arabs have started all Middle East wars and also a terrorist war against the United States most recently.

In the case of Israel, it is a matter of the national Arab dream of committing a Jihad-genocide against the Jewish people.

- In 1948, it was the Arabs who attempted to butcher Israeli men, women and children in an effort to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of any Jewish life.

- In 56, your own evil dictator Gamal Nasser started the war by trying to strangle Israel's commercial and supply routes.

- In 67, all Arab countries sent armies to Israel's borders to again attempt to mass-murder all Jews of Israel.

- In 73, your cowardly Arab armies launched a surprise attack on the most holy of days for the Jewish religion -- a day of fasting, I may add.

- In 82, your Palestinian brothers had steadily fired missiles and launched terrorist attacks into Northern Israel from Lebanon, so after many warnings, Israel was forced into self-defense.

Nevertheless the 1973 war wasnt lost by Egypt it was a tactical victory.And im sure your thinking right now "Brainwashed,brainwashed!"
No, one of the characteristics of Arab society is a desire to live in complete fantasy, like Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights. In your totalitarian regime, complete and utter lies are more convenient to believe than the awful truth, because otherwise, the ruling party would have to be held accountable for the humiliating defeat.

However, the phony peace agreement between Egypt and Israel was, in fact a tactical victory for the Arabs.

It demonstrated that the Israelis and the Jewish people, in our quest for peace and coexistence, would forgive all the wars started by the Arabs and hand over parts of the Jewish homeland to Arab control. That was a terrible mistake and should at least have served as a warning for the future that the land-for-peace deals with the Arabs are completely useless. As it turns out, the lesson was not learned, and that same mistake is being repeated now.

The only path to peace in the Middle East involves a population transfer, whereby the Arabs must leave the Jewish homeland and go back to their Arab homelands. Then, a defensible international border must be built, like in most other countries.

When you have 2 wrestlers engaged in battle, they must first be disentangled to stop the fight. That's what needs to be done in the Middle East. Any other solution, whereby Israel is forced to rely on Arabs upholding any agreements is proven to be useless.

MGB8

07-19-2003, 01:43 PM

The YOM KIPPUR WAR (call it by its NAME...don't try to hide Arab COWARDICE) was not a tactical victory (that doesn't make my think "brainwashed" - more "stupid" frankly."

Egypt almost lost the Suez canal and Cairo. There was NOTHING tactical about it. It was an attempt to DESTROY ISRAEL (like NASSER SAID) and it FAILED, and only Russia threatening WWIII prevented more catastrophe for the Arabs.

How can you even say such a stupid thing, Pharaoh? Can you look in the mirror? Its so so blatantly false that it is almost comical. I guess WWII was a tactical victory for Germany, too, no?

Seriously, among all the misinformed things you have said, this is probably the worst, since its not misinformation, but WILLFULL IGNORING OF REALITY.

Also, OT do you understand the concept of Utilitarianism? If so, then please tell my why the Palestinians shouldn't be allowed to PURCHASE a large part of the Sinai (with European and American money, of course, but still....)

Are you man enough to look at the true reflection of what Arab/Islamic leadership's attacks on Israel have done to the Arab/Islamic peoples? Or will you hide and pretend everything is OK.

I hear that Arab's think that Israel's internal debates and hyper criticism are a weakness....but they are a STRENGTH of the Jews (and the West...) We CAN TAKE AN HONEST LOOK AT OURSELVES IN THE MIRROR - and NOT BE ASHAMED. Can you do that (on a societal level....but if you continue spouting such ridiculousness, then on a personal level, too).

We have QUESTIONED out positions - and they have survived the questioning. Do YOUR POSITIONS SURVIVE QUESTIONING...the answer is that they don't.

Leon

07-19-2003, 11:30 PM

How can you even say such a stupid thing, Pharaoh? Can you look in the mirror? Its so so blatantly false that it is almost comical.

When you say the word 'comical'...comical Ali springs to mind. Remember him? Who can forget....

The 'Comical Ali' phenomenon has almost become a new fade for westerners. Its nothing new to Israelis. The fact that Egyptians convinced themselves that they had a tactical victory in 73 is part and parcel of the 'Comical Ali' technique. The Palestinian conviction that they are winning the intifada is another. Its only when American tanks surrounded Baghdad and the one and only Baghdad Bob claimed 'victory' did the World pay attention to the PR techniques used by Arab regimes.

Seriously, among all the misinformed things you have said, this is probably the worst, since its not misinformation, but WILLFULL IGNORING OF REALITY.

Ask Pharoah if Baghdad Bob has gotten his gig on broadway yet? I think there are many more budding young comics from the Arab region who would follow...

wellofvow

07-20-2003, 02:16 AM

OK, Communication thinks that I am "over the top" in suggesting that Pharaoh be dumped. That's his opinion, and he's entitled. At the very least, I would like to say that I feel it personally insulting when people voluntarily address Pharaoh as "friend", and "welcome" his twisted lies and propaganda to the Israel Forum.

Pharaoh, you insist on claiming that you are not brainwashed. Therefore, by your stating over and over that the creation of Israel was a declaration of war, could not have happened without England and the US, and so forth, you are deliberately spewing propaganda.

By saying that the Arab armies had some "right" to declare war on Israel in 1973 on the holiest day of their religious year because this "right" is not denied specifically in some international charter like the Geneva Conventions is so absurd that it makes me physically ill. If, by some tiny chance, you were being sarcastic, it makes me even more ill. People DIED in that war. Your lies about who started ANY war are barbaric.

Egyptians DID murder Israelis vacationing in Sinai after the peace treaty was signed.

Israel was "created" NOT through war, NOT "with the help of Britain and the US", but by a democratic vote of all members of the UN.

You imply that Jews do NOT have the right to say that we have a right to live in Israel, a country recognized as a country by the UN since 1948, but that people living in other countries recognized by the UN since then DO have the right to live there? Now why is this, exactly?

If "European Jews" do NOT have the right to live in Israel, then why do Moslems have the right to live in, say Germany? Would you please explain to us exactly why Jews cannot live wherever they want? Is it because it "offends" Arabs?

Why, exactly, should the world give special consideration to what Arabs want or don't want?

Why, exactly, are Jews forbidden to live in several Arab countries, but Israeli Arabs have their own political parties, and are represented in the present parliament, even when their members of parliament speak treason and incite to the overthrow of the Israeli government?

The US (whose support for Israel you mysteriously use to invalidate Israel's right to exist) recognized many other countries in the UN. Do you also believe that ll these other countries, ipso facto, are illegitimate? If not, then please explain, exactly, why not.

Again, BRITAIN ABSTAINED IN THE 1947 UN VOTE TO "PARTITION PALESTINE"!!

Why does Israel HAVE to give up land, but for Egypt, this is "impossible"? Egyptian land is holier than Israeli land? Now why is this, exactly?

In its very earliest years, Israel was mostly populated NOT by "Europeans" as you so disdainfully call them, but by Jews fleeing Arab countries in the Middle East.

Dayan was born in Israel. Arafat was born in Egypt, yet is the quintessential "Palestinian". Why is this perfectly fine, but the fact that many of Israel's leaders were not born in Israel NOT fine, exactly?

How can you claim 5000 years of history? There has not been identification of the "separateness" or unity of Arab peoples since the founding of Islan, which was after 600 Christian Era. Why don't you go back to the Neolithic caves discovered in Israel to claim them as yours?

Again, WE don't need to "check out" the historical relation among Moslems, Christians, and Jews, YOU DO.

Again, your constant preaching that Israel is an "illegitimate" country is denying the legitimacy of the UN. If you also cite UN resolutions that you can twist in YOUR favor (and the UN NEVER passed a resolution on the "Palestinian" right to return to Israel, this is pure fantasy), you cannot simultaneously deny the UN's legitimacy.

IMO, **ONLY** if you completely clean up your act and STOP the lying, fantasizing, and propagandizing, is it possible to conduct reasonable discussions. When pro-Israelis are ALWAYS WRONG but you are ALWAYS RIGHT, it is impossible to debate or even talk with you, in spite of what more liberal people in this Forum may think.

Originally posted by Pharaoh
Lets get this straight:Believing whether Israel should or should not exist isnt the point no more.
Egypt didnt think that Israel had the right to existe but still it signed a peace treaty to prevent new wars.
You do know that most Egyptians dont think Israel should existe but that doesnt mean we want to declare war on Israel.
Believing in something different than what your people believe doesnt mean were the enemy.
Its like i dont believe that the creation of the US was "legal" or "justified"-if i may use these words-Because they wiped out the former inhabitants of the continent now does that mean i am the enemy to US?ofcourse not.
Israelians go all the time to Sinai,are they ever attacked?
They arent attacked even though the Egyptians who see them dont acknowledge their right to make their own state on the place of another one.
My dear cousin i am not Brainwashed and if you keep saying i am brainwashed i will cease to debate with you cause it will be useless.I mean you wont listen to anything from a brainwashed man right?Which seems this is the case so far.
The right of Israel to existe or not isnt a fundamental factor in my life or those of my people.On the contrary its very important to your people because they say to themselves "we belong here...its our right...it should be so...it MUST be so"
And let me tell you something about the Egyptian media to clear things up once and for all.
In Egypt a journalist can say whatever he wants except anything bad on the current president or on his dear royal family.
Journaslists arent "brainwashing" and "lying" on the people they write what they believe its true.
I do understand you dont have a clue on this cause maybe its you or another one who said im "exploring the internet" or something like that.And he even said that the government dont allow the people to access the internet freely! totaly laughable.

"You know that "Palestine" the roman word that it is, was owned by the Birts and before then by the Turks (and before then by the Mamaluks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Turks and before then by the Crusaders and before then by the Arabs and before then by the Byantines and before then by the Romans and before then by the Jews.)"

Ah all was going fine untill you made a mistake,well maybe you didnt notice but the jews werent there first there were other tribes in Palestine and there were the "giants" so were exterminated by the "holy wars" of your ancestors.
Well im sure you just forgot to add it...

Lets clear things up,Egypt "giving" land to anyone is impossible.
Not even a dictator has the guts to do something like that.
Instead i do recommend that your government pull off from all occupied territories if it wants a permenant peace with the palestinians.
But unfortunatly i dont believe that will happen cause i do believe that Sharon thinks like you."Israel should rely on its strenght"
I commented on that earlier so there is no need to repeat myself.

Yes Israel was made by European immigrants,failure to admite that surprises me.Why dont you check the nationalities of the first Israelians??Who came after the Belfour promisse??
Aint Sharon from Poland?Where were Golda meir from?Where were Ben gorian from?Where were Moshe Dyan from?Where they all been born in Palestine?! this will be your first objective.
Another thing i showed you that in 1918 jews were 66,000.
Your second objective will be what was the population of Israel in 1948.

It really makes my heart bleed that you fail to acknowledge the good treatment that christians and jews benefited from the arabs.It really makes me sad,it makes me think like "whats the importance?"

Again:The creation of Israel was itself an act of war.
If you will say the UN approved then again i will tell you that without the help of Britain and the US this wouldnt have been possible.
The attack on yom kippur day wasnt an act of cowardness because there is no rule in the world that forbbid a country from attacking another on its holiday.Especially if the attacker wants to free his lands!
I mean does the Geneva convention prevent such an attack or call it "an act of cowardness"?

You say "Passive resistance"?So now after 5000 years of History you will come and tell a people that their resistance should be "Passive"?!

"And you ignore the fact taht islam has been preching the genocide of the Jews since before Hitler, even."

If Islam did preach genocide against the jews then there wouldnt have been any jews in all middle east and africa and in El andalus and everywhere were muslims rule themselves.
You really REALLY need to check out the relation between muslims and jews during the past centuries.

Communication

07-20-2003, 06:25 AM

I didn't think that your suggestion to ban him was over the top. It was your use of sarcasim, which wasn't addressed to Pharaoh, but MGB8 and myself, that prompted my response. In any event, your last response was a good one. I'm still waiting for Pharaoh to address my post on the Weizmann-Feisal agreement, as he promised he would. There's too much garbage that was placed on the board in the past week to respond to everything, and like I said before, I gave that up when I left the Muslim chatrooms, having gotten very little out of the experience.

wellofvow

07-20-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Communication
I didn't think that your suggestion to ban him was over the top. It was your use of sarcasim, which wasn't addressed to Pharaoh, but MGB8 and myself, that prompted my response. In any event, your last response was a good one. I'm still waiting for Pharaoh to address my post on the Weizmann-Feisal agreement, as he promised he would. There's too much garbage that was placed on the board in the past week to respond to everything, and like I said before, I gave that up when I left the Muslim chatrooms, having gotten very little out of the experience.

Communication: What use of sarcasm? I do not do sarcasm. I say and said straightforwardly what I think and thought. I don't recall exactly who prompted what remarks, but I looked back at my post and saw that I plainly wrote that I disagreed with MGB8, that I did NOT think that Pharaoh's posts are important to the Forum since they are undiluted, and very old and virulent, propaganda lines and lies. His flights of fantasy leave me exhausted.

As for my insulting him by writing in the third person (can't remember who wrote that, and it doesn't matter), I say phooey. Pharaoh writes in the second person, "you" or "you people", constantly. Do "you" really think that is not insulting?

If you think that my opening line that I found the remarks "interesting" was sarcastic, you are wrong. I did find them interesting, but then I am a social scientist, and I find almost everything that people say that is new or different "interesting". I have no idea how or why you thought I was sarcastic to you, but I apologize if you believed this to be "sarcastic". Almost always, I mean exactly what I write.

Leon

07-21-2003, 06:57 AM

Wellofvow, I agree with most of what you said. But I dont think that banning him is a good idea- afterall we are in great need of some light hearted comedy. :D

We need more pro-arab people on these boards...although most of them arent worth a debate, from my experience of going on discussion boards, its good to see them being confronted with arguments that they cannot possibly win- only for them to change the subject or hurl personal/racial abuse .

wellofvow

07-21-2003, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Leon
Wellofvow, I agree with most of what you said. But I dont think that banning him is a good idea- afterall we are in great need of some light hearted comedy. :D

We need more pro-arab people on these boards...although most of them arent worth a debate, from my experience of going on discussion boards, its good to see them being confronted with arguments that they cannot possibly win- only for them to change the subject or hurl personal/racial abuse .

Leon: Trust me, I am usually one of the last people who would usually be in favor of banning "free speech". However, it's probably a very good thing that I left the States over 30 years ago. If I still lived there, I would have had apoplexy long ago, because of the gross abuse of this freedom.

I don't know about you, but I am closing in on 60 years old. When I was a kid, I heard my father called a "dirty Jew" by our next-door neighbor. Now, in my 50s, to hear daily threats to my life, being an Israeli, well, I just fail to see any "comedy" in this.

I realize, but you-all must also realize, that I am much more up-tight about this issue than most people on this board. It is my life and the lives of my entire nuclear family that are being openly threatened by Palestinian terrorists and indirectly threatened by all who directly support them. When our lives are further trivialized by those who think that they can "debate" these people, and possibly turn them, well, it hurts.

Mil

07-21-2003, 08:33 AM

Posted by Pharoh:

Arabs started all the wars?Your sure about that?

That's for sure.

Wasnt the 1948 war a direct response to the war declared by the newly established state of Israel in a fellow arab country?

False. Source.

Wasnt the 1956 war started by Israel and Britain and France?

Britain and France.

Wasnt the 1967 war started by Israel?Yes i know the war was almost a sure thing but still it was Israel who started the war.

Provoked and organized by Nasser.

Wasnt the 1973 war an attempt to retake all the taken arab lands?

It was an Arab war. It had many objectives including the return of territories lost in 1967.

Wasnt the 1982 war started by Israel?

Actually the war was started earlier by Syria in 1977 with its invasion of Lebanon.

As for all wars lost...every war was lost for a reason,mainly due to the corrupt regimes of the arab countries.
Nevertheless the 1973 war wasnt lost by Egypt it was a tactical victory.And im sure your thinking right now "Brainwashed,brainwashed!" save it im not.I read from many sources Egyptian/neutral/Israeli and im convienced of my view.

1973 WAr was a complete military loss by Arabs. Only the Egyptians got some political resolution from it.

Mil

07-21-2003, 08:34 AM

My hands are shaken to have another 1967 debate!!!!!!! I love it. Pharaoh!!!!!!!!

Pharaoh

07-21-2003, 03:23 PM

NewsGuy,

"Right, Israel's border should extend far beyond the '67 border to include all of the Jewish homeland."

Then say bye bye to peace in the middle east.

Tell me something Newsguy...Since you do appear to be a Likud supporter do you agree with Valdimir Jabotinsky views on the "jewish homeland"?You know...from the Nile to the Iraqi river (which one of them was it?)

"But the Palestinian suffering is purely self-inflicted as a result of their primitive culture of violence, racism, other forms of discrimination, and terrorism. This, combined with an overpopulation problem and high rate of illiteracy, as well as government corruption (like in other Arab countries), has led to Palestinian suffering"

Yes yes and your occupation that started since 1948 doesnt have to do with anything! They just like to attack innocent peace loving people who always want to "extend far beyond the 67 border"

"To put it very simply, the Arab culture advocates making bombs, not making a living. This is at the crux of the problem, and it is not the fault of anyone but the Palestinians and their Arab brothers."

Well maybe the "arab culture" advocates making bombs while the "zionists culture" advocates occupying lands that belong to other people and torturing them and killing them and treating them like animales and importing up to date weapons from US and using these weapons to attack hopeless civilians as reprisal attacks.
And lets not forget the "zionist culture" advocates making nuclear bombs and various kinds of weapons of mass destruction making them the only country in the middle east that has such weapons.

" In 1948, it was the Arabs who attempted to butcher Israeli men, women and children in an effort to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of any Jewish life."

Actualy it was all the way around.Terrorism in the middle east started by the hagana then by the Israeli army such as the Dir yassen massacre.
Moshe Dayan once said again i QUOTE:"we came to this country which was already populated by arabs and we are establishing a hebrew that is a jewish state here...Jewish villages were built in the place of arab villages.You do not even know the names of these arab villages,and i do not blame you because these geography bookd no longer exist,not only do the books not exist,the arab villages are not there either.Nahalal arose in the place of Mahalul Gevat-in the place of Jibta,Sarid-in the place of Hanefia and kefar yehoshua-in the place of tell shaman.there is not once place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population" END OF QUOTE.
QUOTE from Ben yehuda,he says:"I felt within me a stupefying collapse" when he contemplates the arab village being absrobed into an exemplary jewish settlement.
The only ethnic cleansing that happened in Palestine was because of your army terrorism.

"- In 56, your own evil dictator Gamal Nasser started the war by trying to strangle Israel's commercial and supply routes."

what can i say.....LOL...you really dont have any idea about what your talking about do ya??

"- In 67, all Arab countries sent armies to Israel's borders to again attempt to mass-murder all Jews of Israel."

Ouffff wont you stop already?!!
Ok hope that helps:

General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilization of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analyzing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army."
(Le Monde, June 3, 1972)
P.S:That means you News guy!

General Ezer Weizman, Chief of Operations, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff:

"There was never a danger of extermination. This hypothesis had never been considered in any serious meeting."
(Ha' aretz, March 29, 1972)

General Yeshayahu Gavish, Commanding General Southern Command:

"The danger of Israel's extermination was hardly present before the Six-day war."
(Alfred M. Lilienthal, The Zionist Connection , New York: Dodd, Mead & Co., 1978, p. 558)

General Haim Barlev, Chief of General Staff Branch, Israeli Defence Forces:

"We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility."
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)

General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank:

"There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger. "
(Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972)

Mordechai Bentov, Minister of Housing:

"The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory."

P.S:Looks like you have been BRAINWASHED Newsguy...my condolenses :(

"- In 73, your cowardly Arab armies launched a surprise attack on the most holy of days for the Jewish religion -- a day of fasting, I may add. "

Humm then i also want to add that the arab armies attacked on the holy month of Ramadan!
The holiest month in the entire year.
And the custome was not to wag war on that month.
And one last thing:We too were fasting! but unlike you we dont eat or drink anything for aprox 12 hours.

" In 82, your Palestinian brothers had steadily fired missiles and launched terrorist attacks into Northern Israel from Lebanon, so after many warnings, Israel was forced into self-defense."

Should i remind you that the plan was only to occupy south of Lebanon but Sharon who was the defence minister back then altered the plan and besieged and invaded Beirut?!
And he was criticized by the Kenesset by doing so?
The self defense plan was altered to an all out attack plan!
And lets not forget what the peacefull Sharon did in Sabra and Shatilla! or should i also remind you of that?

"No, one of the characteristics of Arab society is a desire to live in complete fantasy, like Tales of 1001 Arabian Nights. In your totalitarian regime, complete and utter lies are more convenient to believe than the awful truth, because otherwise, the ruling party would have to be held accountable for the humiliating defeat"

Say whatever you want to say but it wasnt our prime minister that wanted to go to the US in the middle of the war to ask a full US intervention to "SAVE ISRAEL!"
And it was not our minister of defence who collapsed after the start of the war and said "everything is gone,the way to Tel aviv is open".

1 last thing Newsguy if you really wanna have a constructive debate then please stop lying to me and stop saying absurd statments.PLEASE.

MGB8,

"The YOM KIPPUR WAR (call it by its NAME...don't try to hide Arab COWARDICE) was not a tactical victory (that doesn't make my think "brainwashed" - more "stupid" frankly."

You know what,the day of the war was the 10th of Ramadan and we didnt chose to call it the war of the 10th of ramadan,we simply called it the war of the 6th of october.
And i dont care what you call it in Israel or abroad.
And i dont care if you still believe it was an act of cowardice,weve been talking about this for too long and i hate repeating myself.

Pharaoh

07-21-2003, 03:24 PM

Wellofvow,

"Egyptians DID murder Israelis vacationing in Sinai after the peace treaty was signed."

Unfortunatly things like this happen and by the way some egyptians did die in Israel from time to time due to various incidents.

"Israel was "created" NOT through war, NOT "with the help of Britain and the US", but by a democratic vote of all members of the UN. "

Its not the UN who will decide whether the arabs should accept to let go their territories.
The arabs didnt agree on the creation of Israel and they left the meeting and they made it very clear that they will oppose such a state.

"If "European Jews" do NOT have the right to live in Israel, then why do Moslems have the right to live in, say Germany? Would you please explain to us exactly why Jews cannot live wherever they want? Is it because it "offends" Arabs? "

BIG BIG BIG DIFFERENCE!
Arabs live in other countries as citizens in that country.Not to make their own country.
Zionism was created as to group all jews in the world in 1 single nation.
It was never a problem for jews living in Palestine they were always tolerated but the conflict began when jews wanted to colonize the host,they wanted to make a state on other people lands,thats the problem.

"Why, exactly, should the world give special consideration to what Arabs want or don't want?"

Because arabs and the palestinians in particular are the victimes!
You took their lands in 1948....450,000 had to flee in 1958.
You took their lands in 1967.....650,000 had to flee.
Now you dont want to give them back all their lands or grant the refugees the right to return.
Your government keep on building settelments on palestinian lands all the time and if the prime minister wants to remove some ((under construction)) settelments the settelers warn him that if he did so he will be killed!
Your government are imprisonning now more than 6,000 palestinians!
And reports say they are being tortured.
Many of them made food strickes to protest how badly they are treated.
Civilians are targeted as reprisal attack whenever a suicidal attack happens.
Israel is still occupying lands even though the UN demanded Israel retreat to its borders in various resolutions.
Thats why the world gives a damn about whats happening to the palestinians.

"Why does Israel HAVE to give up land, but for Egypt, this is "impossible"? Egyptian land is holier than Israeli land? Now why is this, exactly?"

Simply because its not your lands!
Its the palestinian lands.The palestinian leadership accepts the existance of Israel which means they dont want to go to the 48 borders but they simply want to go to the 67 borders.
So ask yourself this question:Why israel refuse to retreat from all lands occpied after the 67 war?Wont that jeapordize peace?

"In its very earliest years, Israel was mostly populated NOT by "Europeans" as you so disdainfully call them, but by Jews fleeing Arab countries in the Middle East. "

If you saw the population statistics im sure you wouldnt say that.
In 1918 the jewish population in Palestine was 66,000.
In 1948 it was 450,000.
Most of those came from Europe due to what happened to them in ww2.

"Dayan was born in Israel. Arafat was born in Egypt, yet is the quintessential "Palestinian". Why is this perfectly fine, but the fact that many of Israel's leaders were not born in Israel NOT fine, exactly?"

It simply shows that even the leaders of Israel were Europeans not arab jews.

"Again, WE don't need to "check out" the historical relation among Moslems, Christians, and Jews, YOU DO."

Jews were very much tolerated in the middle east.
And their status was far better than in Europe.
Check this out:
"Unfortunately, this period did not last long; the onset of the Roman and later Christian influences in Egypt would bring with them a rising anti-semitic sentiment throughout the second and third centuries CE. The Jews tried to resist, but were overwhelmed; at the same time, the jewish community itself began to atrophy through emigration and intermarriage. It was not until the Arab conquest ( 640 CE) that the Jews began to regain their social and cultural strength. From 640 to the late 900s, Jews owned and ran their own universities, served in the courts, and saw a period of relative economic prosperity. From 969, the Fatimid caliphs ruled Egypt as part of what was known as the Ayyubid empire (969-1250), and the Jews continued to flourish in cultural and political spheres, gaining recognition at court and the right to self- rule ( Patai 129). In 1301, however, the new Mameluke rulers, who formally had been slaves, began a campaign to identify and exterminate non-Muslims. The Jews, along with others including the Christians and Samaritans, began to flee or were executed until their numbers were diminished to less than 900, a far cry from the estimated 12-20 000 who flourished in the mid- twelfth century ( Patai 129). After 1492, as a result of their forced expulsion from Spain and Portugal, the Sephardim of the Iberian Peninsula began a mass emigration to Egypt. In the ensuing years, many Jews gained high posts in the Ottoman (Turkish) courts which ruled at that time, and the Jewish finance minister ( the" chelibi") was officially regarded as the political leader of the Jews (Patai 129). At the same time, the Jews of North- West Africa (the Moghrabim) began to move into Egypt, and the Jewish community gradually became more complex."
Source:http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/046/14.html

Communication,

"I'm still waiting for Pharaoh to address my post on the Weizmann-Feisal agreement, as he promised he would. "

Tell you the truth my information on Feisal is very limited so i cant say much.
when i watched "Lawrence of Arabia" it seemed to me that Feisal would sell his mother if that would grante him a personal kingdom.So what he said about the creation of Israel only reflects his views and not that of the arabs.

ibrodsky

07-21-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Pharaoh

Its not the UN who will decide whether the arabs should accept to let go their territories.
The arabs didnt agree on the creation of Israel and they left the meeting and they made it very clear that they will oppose such a state.

What Arab territories are you referring to? Palestine was never an Arab state. Before modern Israel was established, Palestine was ruled by the Turks and then the British. There were both Jewish and Arab inhabitants.

The Jewish inhabitants asked for self-determination in that part of Palestine where they were the clear majority. The Arab response was typical: "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine."

BIG BIG BIG DIFFERENCE!
Arabs live in other countries as citizens in that country. Not to make their own country.
Zionism was created as to group all jews in the world in 1 single nation.
It was never a problem for jews living in Palestine they were always tolerated but the conflict began when jews wanted to colonize the host,they wanted to make a state on other people lands,thats the problem.

Gee, let's pretend that Israel always belonged to the Arabs.

Jews have lived continuously in Israel for the past 3,000 years. Even after the fal of ancient Israel there were periods during which Jews enjoyed self-rule.

I have to go now, but I'll respond to the rest of your propaganda later.

Mil

07-21-2003, 05:49 PM

Posted by Pharoah:

Yes yes and your occupation that started since 1948 doesnt have to do with anything!

Israel did not occupy anything in 1948 beyond what was given to it during the UN partition. YES/NO?

They just like to attack innocent peace loving people who always want to "extend far beyond the 67 border"

Lets have a 1967 discussion. PRETTY PLEASE!!!!! Oh, please - baby.

Another point - when replying please use bold your opponents quote so that it would be easier to comprehend your otherwise uncomprehendable writing.

NewsGuy

07-21-2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Pharaoh
Then say bye bye to peace in the middle east.

We both know that there will be no peace in the Middle East in this generation, because the national Arab dream of ethnically cleansing the Middle East of its Jewish poplation is still alive and well.

Israel's borders are not the issue. Instead, the thorn on the Arabs' side is Israel's existence altogether.

And yes, I agree with Ze'ev Jabotinsky's views of the Jewish homeland.

"But the Palestinian suffering is purely self-inflicted as a result of their primitive culture of violence, racism, other forms of discrimination, and terrorism. This, combined with an overpopulation problem and high rate of illiteracy, as well as government corruption (like in other Arab countries), has led to Palestinian suffering"

Yes yes and your occupation that started since 1948 doesnt have to do with anything! They just like to attack innocent peace loving people who always want to "extend far beyond the 67 border"

Again, trying to blame the obvious Arab problems on Israel's borders. But tell me, which of the things I wrote about palestinian (and Arab society) is false? None, as we both know.

"To put it very simply, the Arab culture advocates making bombs, not making a living. This is at the crux of the problem, and it is not the fault of anyone but the Palestinians and their Arab brothers."

Well maybe the "arab culture" advocates making bombs while the "zionists culture" advocates occupying lands that belong to other people and torturing them and killing them and treating them like animales and importing up to date weapons from US and using these weapons to attack hopeless civilians as reprisal attacks.

Zionism advocates the right of the Jewish people to live freely in the Jewish homeland. It is a simple concept, only opposed by those who deny the Jewish people a right to live as free people with basic human rights.

Instead, the Arabs -- with 22 countries of their own -- attempt to conduct their Jihad-genocide against the handful of Jewish people living in Israel, which is a land so tiny that it cannot even fit its own name on its territory in a typical map of the Middle East.

According to the Arabs, no non-Muslim is entitled to live and worship freely, but rather only as a second-class "dhimmi" citizen, under the fascist rule of a brutal Muslim dictator. And, amazingly enough, the Arabs are offended that the Jews would like to live as normal human beings in the Jewish homeland. Imagine what nerve!

So, you may hate Zionism and the Zionists themselves who live and speak freely in our independent first-world democracy. But your hatred is because of the sharp contrast with your own third-world existence under the thumb of a brutal dictator, which is the same situation in all Arab countries.

Call them Zionists, call them Israelis or Americans. I think your complaint is against anyone who lives freely, unlike yourself.

" In 1948, it was the Arabs who attempted to butcher Israeli men, women and children in an effort to ethnically cleanse the Middle East of any Jewish life."

Actualy it was all the way around.Terrorism in the middle east started by the hagana then by the Israeli army such as the Dir yassen massacre.

No, terrorism started with the various massacres the Arabs conducted against the Jews. Let's not forget the Hebron massacre of 1929, whereby the Arabs attempted to mass-murder all the Jews who lived in Hebron continuously for thousands of years. There was no "occupation" at the time, nor any intifada. It was a plain and simple case of the Arab culture of murder and racism.

And it's the same thing with the ongoing attacks on any Jewish outpost, incited by the racist Muslim Mufti of Jerusalem, a Nazi collaborator and vicious anti-Semite.

There has always been a tradition of slaughtering the "non-believers" who were, and still are, always more advanced and more successful than the general Muslim population. It was so for the past hundred years in Israel, and it is so till today.

P.S:Looks like you have been BRAINWASHED Newsguy...my condolenses :(

No, but I see that you, like so many other Arabs I know, like to make very extensive use of fake quotes that are supposedly attributed to various Israelis. Those quotes usually wind up being invented by 15-year old Arab boys with greasy hair and pimples, based on various incitement "sermons" they are exposed to in their mosques.

I'm not really sure if you believe those quotes are true, or if you think that if you write something, it will be taken at face value. Either way, it is laughable how so many Arabs attempt to rewrite any part of their history that becomes "inconvenient" a few years later.

NewsGuy

07-21-2003, 08:55 PM

Continued...

Humm then i also want to add that the arab armies attacked on the holy month of Ramadan!
The holiest month in the entire year.

Yes, the Arabs attacked on Yom Kippur as a dirty, cowardly trick. But while we are on this topic, let me tell you about the Yom Kippur War from my own perspective, being there myself.

As we all know, the Arabs' real target was not really Israel's military facilities. Instead, I personally recall the sound of an Egyptian missile flying across the coastline, towards the town I lived in, which is a suburb located just South of Tel Aviv. There were no military facilities near my town, but the Egyptians fired in our direction anyway, hoping to hit a purely civilian target, perhaps the center of Tel Aviv itself.

Should i remind you that the plan was only to occupy south of Lebanon but Sharon who was the defence minister back then altered the plan and besieged and invaded Beirut?!
And he was criticized by the Kenesset by doing so?
The self defense plan was altered to an all out attack plan!
That is true, and the Knesset was wrong to criticise Sharon, who understood very well how to deal with Arab terrorists. I believe it was a political witch-hunt launched by Israel's Leftists.

And lets not forget what the peacefull Sharon did in Sabra and Shatilla! or should i also remind you of that?

That's a good place to end this very long post. Here's what I think about Sabra and Shatila (something I posted in this forum just about 2 years ago exactly):

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=79

MGB8

07-22-2003, 09:58 AM

Pharaoh,

Question: WHO WAS SOVEREIGN OVER "Palestine" in 1946-7?

ANSWER - NOT THE ARABS - BRITAIN!

It WAS NOT ARAB LAND TO BEGIN WITH. Your claim is bogus. There was arab claims to the land....so what. There where Jewish claims, too. The UN settled the competing claims by partitioning the land.

The Arabs hadn't been sovereign over the land for CENTURIES.

The Arabs, unable to share the land with another group that had legitimate claims to it...who had a population THERE ON THE GROUND, and STRONGER religious claims....attacked.

They lost. THE ARAB Nations destroyed any chance of an Arab Palestine, both by attacking and by then taking over the WB and Gaza (BTW - Jordan treated "holy to Islam" Jerusalem like CR@P)

Now the whine and cry like children unwilling to bare the consequences of their actions.

wellofvow

07-22-2003, 10:59 AM

Pharaoh: Anyone who knows anything about Judaism knows that Yom Kippur is a 25 hour fast day. That means, no food, no water for 25 hours straight. Observant Jews do not even brush their teeth. We had to beg my grandmother to take her medications.

I love it when Moslems and Arabs ALWAYS try to make themselves into the suffering victims, not matter WHAT the circumstance (especially when the Arabs are victims after THEY start the war)...... Yeah, Ramadan is a month long "fast", with observers not eating for 12 hours straight, and then stuffing themselves for the next 12. So what?

Check your calendar before you post out-and-out, bald-faced lies, and then have the gall to call people who were witnesses liars.

The START of Ramadan seems always to be quite a bit AFTER Yom Kippur. In 2002, it was over 6 weeks after, and in 2003, it is 19 days after. As for 1967, I found the following on an internet site (The Eid is the FEAST DAY at the END of the month-long Ramadan "fast"):

"The year 1967, my loci had enlarged and the centre had moved. The Eid was on Thursday Jan 12. I did not quite spend the day, even when Ripin my kampung-mate took me to Rex, KT for a film show, I managed to elude myself and cycled home alone. I began to discern that Eid was important only as an end to the preceding Ramadan. I returned to the hostel on Sat Jan 14 noon. I was fasting and I was going to do it for three days, a way to express my thankfulness for the SRP results I was blessed with..."

Obviously, there is a misprint somewhere, but either way, in 1967, Ramadan started either in December and ended in January, or started in January and ended in February. In ANYONE's calendar, October 5, 1967 was not in January or February.

Pharaoh, if you are unable to stop yourself from making up things about your own religious calendar, why should anyone believe you about anything?

And we don't.

"Newsguy if you really wanna have a constructive debate then please stop lying to me and stop saying absurd statments.PLEASE."

If you are oh-so weary, and don't know HOW you manage to put UP with this Forum - TAKE A HIKE. PLEASE.

It was very white of you to admit to Egyptians killing Israeli vacationers in Sinai. Your "Unfortunately things like this happen" is pretty disgusting. It wasn't a traffic accident or an earthquake. Egyptian soldiers fired on families. I know of NO Egyptians dying in Israel (well, unless Egyptian soldiers invaded us), not surprising since practically no Egyptians are allowed to come to Israel.

How many Egyptians do you know PERSONALLY have vacationed in Israel? Do not lie. I myself know dozens of Israelis who have vacationed in Egypt.

Up to 1917, the land you (and the ancient Romans) call "Palestine" belonged to, was administered by, was recognized by the world as part of, **the Ottoman Empire**. Not "Arabs". From 1917 to 1947, it was adminstered (in other words, the bad "o" word - occupied - by England. All the people, including Arabs, living in "Palestine" quietly paid their baksheesh and taxes to the Ottomans until 1917, and I've heard stories that if an Arab was caught attacking a Brit during the period 1917-1947, his corpse was sent to his family wrapped in a pigskin, so the martyr did not have a chance of reaching heaven.

I am SO impressed with your ability to translate Hebrew, with all those quotes from "Maariv"!! Gimme a break.

Most of your "answers" to me were such gibberish and / or deliberate misunderstanding of simple English that I'm not bothering to retort yet again. You insist on rewriting history. Well, there are plenty of places in the world and on the net that will agree with you. Most of the Forum doesn't, and won't. So why don't you just leave us??????

Sorry, one last note. You wrote "Terrorism in the middle east started by the hagana then by the Israeli army...." Hello! "Assassin" is from Arabic.