DEFENSIBLE BORDERS FOR ISRAEL :Dore Gold

[Batman]

DEFENSIBLE BORDERS FOR ISRAEL (http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp500.htm)

[old-reb]

Hello Batman,

I saw on the Islamic BBC news that Sharon emerged from his talks with Bush and delcared that he would not tear down that wall (fence).

old reb

[Batman]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Batman,

I saw on the Islamic BBC news that Sharon emerged from his talks with Bush and delcared that he would not tear down that wall (fence).

old reb



I guess it's something for now.....Defensible wall

[minusthejihad]

There is absolutely no reason why Israel should stop building a fence to prevent terrorists from entering into the country. Anyone who thinks so, should come down to San Diego/Tijuana and tell Bush to tear down our wall.

[Batman]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
There is absolutely no reason why Israel should stop building a fence to prevent terrorists from entering into the country. Anyone who thinks so, should come down to San Diego/Tijuana and tell Bush to tear down our wall.


see post #4 about Bush and his self protecting army!


http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3332

[Batman]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
There is absolutely no reason why Israel should stop building a fence to prevent terrorists from entering into the country. Anyone who thinks so, should come down to San Diego/Tijuana and tell Bush to tear down our wall.


Sharon: Don't listen to what President Bush says. Do what President Bush did.

[old-reb]

Israeli official said the course of a security barrier might be altered to encompass less West Bank land than initially planned.

The U.S. government has criticized the barrier, a small section of which has been completed and whose planned route would cut deep into the West Bank in some areas to encompass several large Jewish settlements. Israel says it needs the barrier to deter Palestinian militants, but Palestinians say Israel is unilaterally drawing a border.

The Bush administration is considering deducting the money Israel spends on the barrier from $9 billion in U.S. loan guarantees, but Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said Thursday that a decision has not yet been made.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030807/pl_nm/mideast_usa_powell_dc_3

[old-reb]

I wanted to see where the green line was and I got this map with a Very, Very biased report.

If the Palestines agreed to the green line then they would have stopped fighting when it was set up.

They are afraid Israel will survive in spite of the wishes of a billion muslims whipped up into a frenzy by insane Mullahs.

I see that the Muslims have the world hood winked. How could they get the world to believe that the Muslims are the oppressed people. Duh!!

Bushes hands are tied by the law set up earlier, probably by Clinton.

Muslims are as good at control by propaganda as they are at control by terror.

old reb


http://www.gush-shalom.org/thewall/

[abu afak]

gush-shalom is a Leftist Anti-Israel Israeli 'peace' group.

Kinda like letting Jane Fonda speak for US policy.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by abu afak
gush-shalom is a Leftist Anti-Israel Israeli 'peace' group.

Kinda like letting Jane Fonda speak for US policy.

Thank's Abu,

I didn't know it as a anti-Israel group but their words classified them.

I ask myself, would anybody be swayed by the article and I have to look at myself.
I was taught to hate Jews, that Jews killed Jesus, when we read from the bible it said that the Jews were the chosen ones and when I read about them wiping out other tribes I had a very bad impression indeed. I had zero knowledge of Islam. I thought they were a very kind and passive religion.

Then: A fellow sailor had his plane dirveted to Cario, Egypt so he took a bus to tour around town. He had zero knowledge of Islam. On the bus a womans veil dropped and he just looked at her face and her husband took out a 15" knife and tried to kill my friend. This was a mysterious puzzle to him and myself.

Then: The Muslim order to kill Salmon Rushdie. At that time I knew a Muslim whose family had been in America for 200 years. He was a wonderful guy but I asked him about Rushdie and he said he would kill him if he saw him and he was very serious and emotional. Whoa! What the F! What is this religion?

Then: there were Muslims in Israel killing Jews because they were Jews. What the F!?
Then: there was 9/11. What the F?

Now I see how Muslims wiped out Jews and Christians from the ME hundreds of years ago and I see how angry they are that Israel has millions of Jews and Muslims are hopping mad because they can't kill them.

Considering all that I have said so far I read the gush-salom article and I think: The palestines are trying to kill off the Jews by war and taking their land but it backfired and they lost land instead of gaining then it is only fair that they should have to give up land for trying to exterminate the Jews. They must pay a price for god awful actions.

I (who is nobody) would say that anybody in Israel (including WB and gaza) who preaches hatred or acts out hate crimes should be banished from Israel. The criminals who were released should also be banished.

When I started life, my bag of good will toward the Muslims was full but today it is empty. If they reinvented themselves and became peaceful I could forgive the past, however horrible. But I don't see that happening, ever.

old reb

[old-reb]

You might say, who is old reb to judge the Jews or the Muslims. He is just one old dirt farmer in Alabama. Well it is like votes, I am just one and a vote for Bush is a vote for Israel.

The Muslims are experts at controlling world opinion and right now that is the strongest force against Israel.

Muslims, I ask you to seek the truth and it shall set you free from hatred and bigotry and bring peace to the world.

old reb

[Isiah 2:4]

If the map on the gush shalom website is a realistic demonstration of how the wall will look, I am disappointed. It clearly cuts half of palestinian territory into israeli land.

I wish they could just let the settlers live there without having to sacrifice the lives of young Idf soldiers to protect them. I mean, F the settlers. If they want to live on palestinian land, let them. I dont wany my cousins to grow up to have to fight for them to live there, when they could be inside Israel and behind international defenisble borders.

Gush Shalom also stick up for the young Israelis who get maltreated and abused in Army prisons for refusing to fight in palestininan areas. Putting money and time and effort into supporting Israelis is not exactly anti-Israel is it?

[Isiah 2:4]

Why can't they build the wall closer to the green line? The wall can still include the larger setllements on and around the green line can't they?

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Why can't they build the wall closer to the green line? The wall can still include the larger setllements on and around the green line can't they?
Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Within two hours the Egyptian Air Force did not exist... most of its planes destroyed while still on the runways! Unaware that the Egyptians had no more air force, King Hussein of Jordan, launched his attack from the his West Bank into Israel's belly while Syrian troops prepared to descend down the Golan Heights mountain range into northern Israel.

Now for some facts about "occupation." First off, the Arab-Palestinians lost the West Bank and Gaza by participating in a failed attempt at genocide along with their brothers in Jordan and Egypt. Had Israel lost in 1967, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have killed every Israeli they could get their hands on and they would have taken all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide bombers into the heart of Israel! Talk about misplaced compassion!


http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

[Isiah 2:4]

Originally posted by old-reb
Throughout much of May 1967, the Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian armies mobilized along Israel's narrow and seemingly indefensible borders in preparation for a massive invasion to eliminate the State of Israel. The battle cry heard throughout the Arab world was then, as it continues to be... "Slaughter the Jews" and "Throw the Jews into the sea!" But the Jews of Israel, remembering 2,000 years of being butchered, gassed, burned and skinned (eg. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Arab rampages of early Palestine and particularly the Holocaust), planned and executed a perfect pre-emptive strike against Egypt. Within two hours the Egyptian Air Force did not exist... most of its planes destroyed while still on the runways! Unaware that the Egyptians had no more air force, King Hussein of Jordan, launched his attack from the his West Bank into Israel's belly while Syrian troops prepared to descend down the Golan Heights mountain range into northern Israel.

Now for some facts about "occupation." First off, the Arab-Palestinians lost the West Bank and Gaza by participating in a failed attempt at genocide along with their brothers in Jordan and Egypt. Had Israel lost in 1967, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have killed every Israeli they could get their hands on and they would have taken all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide bombers into the heart of Israel! Talk about misplaced compassion!


http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Reb. I know all this already. I have Israeli family, Jewish family. I have read and heard countless fact and opinion in print and on the web. This does not answer what i asked. Don't lecture me please. Add something constructive.

WHY CAN'T THEY BUILD A FENCE CLOSER TO THE GREEN LINE, WHICH WILL INCLUDE LARGE CONURBATIONS OF SETTLEMENTS, WHILE NOT ANNEXING HALF OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF THE PALESTINIAN FARM LAND THAT GOES WITH IT?

Shalom sheli haverim

[Isiah 2:4]

What's the deal with the fence? Is Israel really so dependent on this single devise? The president of the United States has turned it into an important agenda item. Palestinians are up in arms about it. Is one, albeit very long and heavily reinforced, fence, worth all this fuss? More important, is this fence really about security, or is it all about politics?

The fence has its positive points. Certainly, it will help protect Israelis from suicide bombers. This barrier is not simply a 30-foot high wall or a chain-linked barrier. This fence is a high tech security warning system with all the bells and whistles, literally. There are infrared sensors, motion detectors, mobile command centers. Whole systems can be watched and tweaked with little palm-pilot sized control devises.

Gone are the days when Israel simply dragged the sand. Bedouin trackers sniffing the sent of trespassers and potential terrorists is a rarity these days, too inefficient and too slow. Today, what looks like a virtual reality game is actually a system implemented to better the odds in the real game of terror, of life and of death.

But, like so much that has transpired in the world of Middle East politics and the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, all is not as it seems.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon really does not want a fence, this or any other. So why allow it to be built? He is playing a game at which he excels, the game of tactics. Sharon will use this fence as a bargaining chip later on, as a concession.

Here's a little background: The idea of the fence was concocted during the administration of Ehud Barak, the former Israeli prime minister. Barak floated the idea as a panacea in the absence of any serious policy. His administration, in effect, said "throw up a fence." If Palestinians will not take responsibility and clamp down on the terrorists, they postured, then shut them out. The idea caught on even as the Israeli public realized that Barak's fence, without anything behind it, was insufficient, a fa?ade, an inefficient tool. Barak's Labor party paid the price and Labor failed miserably at the polls not once but twice.

And yet, Israelis were intrigued. With no other viable alternatives and with deaths from terrorist attacks mounting they found the idea very attractive. All the cliches came out, especially the one about how good fences make good neighbors. Many reasoned that if they couldn't tell the good guys from the bad, keep them all out -- it might not be fair, but it would, hopefully, save lives.

And so, even the Likud, probably in an effort not to lose the votes of a potentially large voting bloc, jumped on the fence bandwagon. But Sharon has never liked the idea, neither have the settlers nor any of Israel's right wing ideologues.

Why? What's the harm in a fence that will save lives? Opponents fervently believe that this fence will create a de facto border with the Palestinians -- without negotiations without a consensus and without process. America agrees. As a matter of fact, in certain places, the fence is even within the green line, Israel's pre-'67 border.

They believe that the fence throws up a barrier for Israelis and for Palestinians by keeping settlers and their families from freely accessing not only important sites -- religious and military -- but also their homes. They believe that the fence denies Israelis the right to be anywhere within Israel that they consider to be their home.

The first stage, about 80 miles of fence, is complete and the next stage is in progress. There is little doubt that had Sharon believed in the fence, that if he wanted it, he would have acted promptly and finished it years ago. Had America seriously pressured against the fence, he would have scrapped it. Instead, he hemmed, hawed, and delayed until the eve of the last election.

Now Sharon has a wonderful card to play in the game of politics for peace. For Sharon, the fence is a great concession he now has to offer. Once again Israel's prime minister will have the ability to compromise on something that he considers irrelevant, just like he did on the new outposts. He will ceremoniously give away something that, to him, amounts to nearly nothing.

United States President Bush, National Security Adviser Rice and Secretary of State Powell have all expressed worry about the fence. And Ariel Sharon will show flexibility.

Whatever part of the wall is already up and built will mostly remain. It will satisfy those Israelis who still think it will help. Palestinians will be happy when he stops. And America will be satisfied if he dismantles certain small sections of the fence.

Once again, Ariel Sharon has masterfully played his game.

From Jewsweek.com

[Communication]

Hey Isiah 2:4, how's it going? I can't wait for your expanded post on what you thought of your trip. BTW, California is by no means representative of “America.” In fact, most people expect that it will secede from the rest of the nation any day now.

As far as your article goes, I don’t think AmericanJewsweek.com got it right. Cause I heard from a friend of a friend who is in the know about these things…and anyhoo, Aerial Sharon’s house cleaning lady overheard Sharon say that the fence is REALLY there to serve as a landing guide for when the aliens come. Well, we are all just waiting for one particular alien, but now I heard from another site, AmericanJewishworld .com, that there are actually going to be many of them.

[Isiah 2:4]

Hehe

I don't think it got it right either :rolleyes: ....it was just some opinion i found interesting. :)

[Isiah 2:4]

You're right tho. California is very strange. But i liked it like that!

What makes America so great is that it has so much variation, so many idiosyncracies and so much juxtaposition, socially and culturally. I'm just waiting for the good guys to reclaim the political system as it should be. I don't mean the democrats either...

[Communication]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
You're right tho. California is very strange. But i liked it like that!

What makes America so great is that it has so much variation, so many idiosyncracies and so much juxtaposition, socially and culturally. I'm just waiting for the good guys to reclaim the political system as it should be. I don't mean the democrats either...

Yeah, it is interesting. Lots of freedom for expression. One year, you will have to come back for Burning Man (don't bring the folks). It is a festival/community project unlike anything else in the world.

[Donna]

Originally posted by Communication
Yeah, it is interesting. Lots of freedom for expression. One year, you will have to come back for Burning Man (don't bring the folks). It is a festival/community project unlike anything else in the world.

Never been, but it looks....interesting and a little skeeeery.
:cool:

http://www.time.com/time/daily/special/photo/burningman/index.html

[abu afak]

Originally posted by old-reb
Thank's Abu,

I didn't know it as a anti-Israel group but their words classified them.

I ask myself, would anybody be swayed by the article and I have to look at myself.
I was taught to hate Jews, that Jews killed Jesus, when we read from the bible it said that the Jews were the chosen ones and when I read about them wiping out other tribes I had a very bad impression indeed. I had zero knowledge of Islam. I thought they were a very kind and passive religion.

Then: A fellow sailor had his plane dirveted to Cario, Egypt so he took a bus to tour around town. He had zero knowledge of Islam. On the bus a womans veil dropped and he just looked at her face and her husband took out a 15" knife and tried to kill my friend. This was a mysterious puzzle to him and myself.

Then: The Muslim order to kill Salmon Rushdie. At that time I knew a Muslim whose family had been in America for 200 years. He was a wonderful guy but I asked him about Rushdie and he said he would kill him if he saw him and he was very serious and emotional. Whoa! What the F! What is this religion?

Then: there were Muslims in Israel killing Jews because they were Jews. What the F!?
Then: there was 9/11. What the F?

Now I see how Muslims wiped out Jews and Christians from the ME hundreds of years ago and I see how angry they are that Israel has millions of Jews and Muslims are hopping mad because they can't kill them.

Considering all that I have said so far I read the gush-salom article and I think: The palestines are trying to kill off the Jews by war and taking their land but it backfired and they lost land instead of gaining then it is only fair that they should have to give up land for trying to exterminate the Jews. They must pay a price for god awful actions.

I (who is nobody) would say that anybody in Israel (including WB and gaza) who preaches hatred or acts out hate crimes should be banished from Israel. The criminals who were released should also be banished.

When I started life, my bag of good will toward the Muslims was full but today it is empty. If they reinvented themselves and became peaceful I could forgive the past, however horrible. But I don't see that happening, ever.

old reb


After 9/11 I had a similar revelation...

I also realized that Israel was just a Tiny, if Important, spot on the 'Long Islamic Frontline', on which hundreds of people, on average, die everyday from the world's biggest cause of Violent death. Islam.

Many people have had the same realization.
Here's one from someone, also non-Jewish, on Israel specifically:


"Anti-Semitism, Misinformation, And
The Whitewashing Of The Palestinian
Leadership

By Francisco J. Gil-White

Introduction

Until last spring I held what people call a pro-Palestinian position.

Like many intellectuals I had adopted Arafat’s cause, taking what I believed was a principled stand that blamed Israel for the conflict in the Middle East, and especially for the suffering of Palestinians. Because I come from a Catholic background, and because there is a long and violent history of Catholic anti-Semitism (though not in my family), I always made clear that I supported the right of the State of Israel to exist, and that my position had nothing to do with animosity against Jews.

In April 2002, I noticed that media coverage of the fighting in Jenin was manifestly one-sided (against Israel). I began to look into this and also into the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This work made me realize that my sympathy for Mr. Arafat was based on false information.

Here is what I used to believe about the Middle East (all of these beliefs are quite popular:

1) That the media (at least the American media) has a uniformly pro-Israel bias.

2) That Arafat’s Fatah is a secular nationalist organization trying to combat the fundamentalist influences of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Islamist terrorists.

3) That Palestinian terrorism is not anti-Semitic but aims at national liberation.

4) That the Palestinian leadership has attempted to implement the Oslo accords in good faith but the Israelis have sabotaged the process.

5) That Israel is a state overwhelmingly made up of European and American Jews who moved into Palestine and displaced Middle Eastern natives.

6) That historically Jews were well-treated in the Arab world, and that current Arab hostility therefore stems from the current conflict.

Now, having spent time studying the historical record, I believe I was wrong about all six points.

In this essay I will explain why I changed my mind and provide some of the source material I have studied. I will also look at examples of media misinformation that earlier led me to mistaken conclusions..."""


From the whole Article: http://www.tenc.net/gilwhite/Israel.htm
("Palestine is our land and Jews are our dogs")

[Batman]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
If the map on the gush shalom website is a realistic demonstration of how the wall will look, I am disappointed. It clearly cuts half of palestinian territory into israeli land.

I wish they could just let the settlers live there without having to sacrifice the lives of young Idf soldiers to protect them. I mean, F the settlers. If they want to live on palestinian land, let them. I dont wany my cousins to grow up to have to fight for them to live there, when they could be inside Israel and behind international defenisble borders.

Gush Shalom also stick up for the young Israelis who get maltreated and abused in Army prisons for refusing to fight in palestininan areas. Putting money and time and effort into supporting Israelis is not exactly anti-Israel is it?

First of all I was surprised that this above post came from you, I thought you were more fair minded than that. You actually sound self rightous.

I find your language really offensive. You have no right to curse people who suffer for your comfort. What have YOU done for Israel that allows you the right to speak like that?
You do not live there, and therefore you may express your points of view, but do so without cursing the people whose very lives permit Jews everywhere to live in Diaspora without feeling Landless and Stateless!!!

The 'settlers' whom everyone loves to gang up on are living in Israel. You do not.
OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE SHORT ON THE MEANINGS OF ANTI-ISRAEL ACTIVITIES AND WHO IS PAYING FOR GUSH SHALOM'S ANTI ISRAEL ACTIVITIES WHICH IS ARAB $$$$$

WITHOUT GUSH SHALOM AND PEOPLE WHO ADVOCATE DISTORTION OF HISTORY, COMPROMISES WITH ANTI-SEMITIC RACIST POLICIES WHICH ARE DOOMED TO TRIGGER MORE ATTACKS ON ISRAEL, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN
P E A C E

LONG AGO.

You worry about your cousins protecting the so called 'settlers'
Please tell your cousins that sitting pretty in Tel Aviv is no gauranttee. The Arabs want ALL OF ISRAEL.

If you've been to Jerusalem lately you would also know that with or without borders, parts of Jerusalem which used to be free to move around for Jews are now considered Arab populated and completely undesirable and dangerous for moving in unprotected.

Why is it that Arabs do not fear moving around in any part of Israel?

Why do the Arabs blow up in Tel Aviv etc?

Don't be so fearful as to not face the reality, which IS brutally scary. But burying your head in the Tel Aviv sand is not going to make it any better.

Check out your history books and see what was before 1967.It was no different than now. Attacks by Arabs continues despite any moves on the part of Israel.

Without the so called 'settlers' who you curse in your ignorance and with 'chutzpa' of their sacrifices for you and your cousins, you would have long ago been worried about more worrisome conditions that are pre-your-history.

I know from family expriences how it felt to worry about Tel Aviv being attacked.


The poor 'settlers' WHO ARE HUMAN BEINGS WITH CHILDREN AND WITH FEELINGS AND WHO WERE ENCOURAGED BY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO MOVE THERE TO BEGIN WITH IN THE 1970-80S are the buffer zone. Look at the geography of Judeah and Samaria and see why the Arabs would love to control that area all by themselves (and as an aside, why the Jewish Free zone? Israel hosts over a million Arabs and they are citizens who get to go to universities on scholarships, etc!?)

The Judea and Samaria area is mountaneous and if you've ever been to Israel you know what that means militaristically.

It's much easier for ARabs to hide and conduct war from this area.

Before you go cursing the hand that feeds you you should ask yourself if you investigated ALL the points.

check out this link:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3334

Arab population in Israel has risen from 1949 to 2000
from 160,000 to 1,215,000


JEWISH POPULATION IS DECLINING IN MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES AS FOLLOW :

1ST NUMBER IS FROM 1948
2ND NUMBER IS FROM 2000

Algeria 140,000
less than 100

Egypt 75,000
200

Iran 100,000
12,000-40,000

Iraq 150,000
100

Lebabnon 20,000
100

Libya 38,000
0

Morocco 265,000
5,800

Syria 30,000
200

Tunisia 105,000
1,500

Yemen 55,000
200


and this one:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3333


AND THIS ONE:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3373

Arab Flags Prove That The Arab Palestinians Homeland Is Jordan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Isiah 2:4]

I'm not attempting to be self-righteous in any way, but considering that some of the settlers fight with IDF troops when illegal outposts are taken down, and sometimes jews are killing fellow jews, i cannot respect the ideological settlers who believe they have either ; a g-d given claim to the land or a superiority of arabs/muslims ( them being ishmaels seed, the son who was cast away by g-d) , and therefore a right to all of the land.

For any peace to be made realisitically, some settlements are going to HAVE TO BE comprimised. In some cases i think this is necessary, but in others, i think like you, if Arabs are allowed to be equal citizens in israel, why can't Jews be equal citizens in a palestinian state? Its hypocritical i know and the lunacy of the situation angers me too.

The reason i spoke of the settlers in that way is that i see the role of the IDF as a defense force for ISRAEL, not for settlements in israeli occupied palestinian territory. Thats why i have said before, close the borders, return the army inside the green line, fortify it, and don't let any pals come into israel at all. How can they (pals ) argue with that? Israel can employ more of its own citizens in work, and if the pals rot and stagnate its they own fault, they are the ones that bite the hand that feeds.

Plus, i wonder how many of the settlers will stay when they don't have the army in there protecting them, which costs Israel in lives, time and money. The negev is there to be populated!

And if that doesn't work, and we see Arab terrorism against Jews living in their territory and or/ israel, the world will see that their only goal is to create a jew free islamic state and the destruction of israel, not to rid themselves of 'occupation'.

Other than that, i really don't know. :( Its harsh on the settlers, but if israel can wangle some money from somewhere to rebuild homes for them inside Israel, then whats wrong with that? Of course, like you, i can recognise that if someone was born and lived in the West bank, than they have a right as much as anyone else to live there. Towns like Hebron which were never 'settled' by israelis, but have been Jewish towns for over four millenia, should be given special consideration somehow, even if the pals think that they can have a judenrein state.

If the pals end up creating a mess for themselves, its not israel's fault anymore.

Batman, i know that you think the pals should be forcibly moved out of the west bank/judaea and samaria, but it is not politically, militarily or ethically acceptable or feasible thing to do. Nobody would let Israel do it.

Other than that, i say build the fence, but build it closer to the green line. Cap the Arab population in Israel and attempt to do something just and humane with both the settlers and the pals.

Something courageous has to be done, because expulsion, killing, and argument solves nothing.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4


If the pals end up creating a mess for themselves, its not israel's fault anymore.


As long as there is an Israel everything will be there fault.

old reb

[red crabtree]

To me an thought of a fence is there simply because no one outright war. If Isreal CHOSE to eliminate the threat that is there day after day they could very easily do it, yes? But they don't because the nation is one that has adopted Western thought processes regarding killing people who disagree with you or have a different religion etc... while a fence is not going to be fully effective it will be SOMETHING. It ends up being a compromise that no one really likes. And personally when GW runs this country the way everyone else in the world wants him to, then he can expect Sharon to do the same, but not until then.

When a people, any people decide that national boundries will be defined by the religion of the people within it there is bound to be a mess. When Pakistan and India were divided it displaced 20 million people. 20 million people affected because of conflicts between Muslim and Hindu. Should that be a model for Israel to follow? In my own opinion it is not. Since we are not likely to see Israel going full blown after those that wish to see the Jews gone, period, what is Israel to do? Again a fence may not be the best solution, but it is something that will help.

As far as settlers, to me that seems as if someone encouraged you to buy a lifelong contract, offered many incentives to go along with it and after much consideration you opted to purchase this contract. Then 20 years later someone showed up on your door and said sorry our version of the contract says 20 years is lifelong. Your contract is no longer valid. So in effect just like Pakistan/India you will have displaced people because Muslims do not want to have to live in peace with people who are not just like them. If they cannot have those that are not Muslim have to live under a system that is separate and not equal to Muslims then they don't want them at all. This is not an issue of Israel not taking in Arabs, the history does not support that. This is an issue of Muslims refusing to be able to live in peace with people who are non-Muslim and like Reb said, they are masters of manipulation so that they come out the victim. And that is my answer to why not move the fence to the green line because no matter what it won't be enough for those who wish no true compromise and who refuse to live with people that they can't dominate or murder out of the way.

[Communication]

Batman,

Other than your points about the terrain in the West Bank and the fact that the issue of settlements was kept open until final negotiation, I think that your attacks on Isiah are misguided if not unjustified. Part of the problem is the way these peace processes are set up. The US refrains from making decisions on all the major issues like final borders, refugees and control over holy sites until the end as a way to induce the parties to start the process, hoping that the sides can be eased along.

While I think that a good portion of the populations on both sides of the conflict could be satisfied with some equitable resolution, everyone is skeptical about the sincerity of the other sides’ commitment, and for good reason because both sides failed to live up to their commitments under Oslo and yet the process continued. The same thing is happening now under the Road Map. Because the leaders are military men and not diplomats, their primary goal is to retain as much negotiating power for when the time comes to settle those major issues, rather than commit to the slow process of building trust that the road map envisions. The result is that both sides take actions that make them look insincere in the eyes of the people and the outside world.

It’s a catch 22, really. The US cannot unilaterally decide the final outcome of the road map in advance and the UN, though more qualified in terms of imposing some decision on the parties through the force of a world body, has proven itself incapable of offering a less biased approach to the conflict than the US.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
I'm not attempting to be self-righteous in any way, but considering that some of the settlers fight with IDF troops when illegal outposts are taken down, and sometimes jews are killing fellow jews, i cannot respect the ideological settlers who believe they have either ; a g-d given claim to the land or a superiority of arabs/muslims ( them being ishmaels seed, the son who was cast away by g-d) , and therefore a right to all of the land.

For any peace to be made realisitically, some settlements are going to HAVE TO BE comprimised. In some cases i think this is necessary, but in others, i think like you, if Arabs are allowed to be equal citizens in israel, why can't Jews be equal citizens in a palestinian state? Its hypocritical i know and the lunacy of the situation angers me too.

The reason i spoke of the settlers in that way is that i see the role of the IDF as a defense force for ISRAEL, not for settlements in israeli occupied palestinian territory. Thats why i have said before, close the borders, return the army inside the green line, fortify it, and don't let any pals come into israel at all. How can they (pals ) argue with that? Israel can employ more of its own citizens in work, and if the pals rot and stagnate its they own fault, they are the ones that bite the hand that feeds.

Plus, i wonder how many of the settlers will stay when they don't have the army in there protecting them, which costs Israel in lives, time and money. The negev is there to be populated!

And if that doesn't work, and we see Arab terrorism against Jews living in their territory and or/ israel, the world will see that their only goal is to create a jew free islamic state and the destruction of israel, not to rid themselves of 'occupation'.

Other than that, i really don't know. :( Its harsh on the settlers, but if israel can wangle some money from somewhere to rebuild homes for them inside Israel, then whats wrong with that? Of course, like you, i can recognise that if someone was born and lived in the West bank, than they have a right as much as anyone else to live there. Towns like Hebron which were never 'settled' by israelis, but have been Jewish towns for over four millenia, should be given special consideration somehow, even if the pals think that they can have a judenrein state.

If the pals end up creating a mess for themselves, its not israel's fault anymore.

Batman, i know that you think the pals should be forcibly moved out of the west bank/judaea and samaria, but it is not politically, militarily or ethically acceptable or feasible thing to do. Nobody would let Israel do it.

Other than that, i say build the fence, but build it closer to the green line. Cap the Arab population in Israel and attempt to do something just and humane with both the settlers and the pals.

Something courageous has to be done, because expulsion, killing, and argument solves nothing.

First of all:
Please check your history and the justifications for cursing the settlers.


At the center of the fence dispute is the question of whether it should hew to the "Green Line" that existed before the 1967 Six-Day War - an armistice line between Israel and Jordan that was never accepted as an international border - or whether it should cut slightly into the West Bank to protect major Jewish settlements close to the Green Line.

Second of all:
Since you have no problem with this:
F------ the Palestinian Arabs
F------ the Arab settlers of the biblical Israel


Third of all

YOU SAY, IN MY NAME:
Batman, i know that you think the pals should be forcibly moved out of the west bank/judaea and samaria

you do not know what I think.
I could care less if these Arabs stay there or move away.
It's only because they are hurting my people that anything they do actually matters.

If they didn't covet my land and it is my land covetted many centuries over by other people, but it is the ONLY land I've got!
then they can live and enjoy. I do not mind at all.

You must picture me as some stereotypical Jew-I wonder if this Jew exists anywhere, just as you picture the stereotypical 'settler'- I wonder if this 'settler' exists anywhere.
This is the main reason I am offended by your comment, because you do sound like someone who does not pass judgement BUT here you have fallen into stereotyping your very own brothers and sisters, MERCILESSLY! AND UNTRUTHFULLY But it's only a figment of your imagination, I am very much NOT that.

However, what's fair is fair. And it's only fair that Jews should have a sliver of land and the Arabs should be less greedy and lie less.

Jordan is the ORIGINAL HOME OF THE PALESTINIAN ARABS. They can stay in Israel without causing problems. PERIOD.

But they have with the help of Jews who get paid by ARAB and EU $$$$$ and with the everlasting mistakes on the part of the HASBARA of ISRAEL guided by the SELL OUT PERES in these days and others before him, distorted the history of the region, which started (at least) with the Balfour Declaration.

You cannot correct the problem without going back to the root of the problem, Isaiah.

The PISA is forever leaning and will never be straightened UNLESS we realign the foundation. In the case of the PISA it's actually really nice that it leans, but in the case of the land of Israel the root of the problem needs to be corrected because there is no peace unless there is truth.

The truth is there are no Palestinian Arabs, and they emerged as a result of the ARab goal to annihilate Israel, green line and all.

PLEASE, permit your mind to allow this possibility in. The Arabs may come accross as friendly and phlegmatic, but no one weilds the knife better while smiling in your face.

On the other hand, if stopped and controlled through fear, which created the present peace between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan, the Arabs may realize their goals are futile and start to seek peace and economic progress.

It is only after defeat that the ARabs of Egypt and Jordan laid down their hopes to destroy Israel.

The same needs to be done to a society of Arabs which fights Israel with the complete support of Arab nations: it's the only way the Arabs have managed to manipulate the equation and not appear like the aggressors, by promoting the present Palestinian Arab myth and culture so as to continue to fight Israel without consequences.

And yes, therefore Israel looks bad, fighting with armies against what appears to be a bunch of terrorists hiding behind children and women's skirts for cover.

Isn't it also true that Israel has a right to defend itself in the same manner as the US who went INTO foreign lands far away from the US borders to seek out the terror networks?

Why do you curse the settlers? that is the most hurtful attitude for all Jews. When we turn against each other. The settlers resisting the IDF is not the same as YOU cursing them. The settlers resisting ISrael caving into US and EU and Arab Oil pressures is their right, just as people in any democratically ran country can resist.

Yet the settlers did not resort to spilling the blood of their IDF brothers! And since the GReen line was never the accepted
border and the settlers were originally urged to live in those areas, how can you curse them for their right to resist a move by the Israeli government that completely throws out their rights to retain their homes? The so called 'illigal settlements' byJews are being removed, but HOW MANY ILLIGAL SETTLEMENTS BY ARABS HAVE BEEN REMOVED BY ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT?

In other words, if Arabs do not fight they get to stay peacefully on the land but i Jews live peacefully on the land they get to be removed.

Is that right? Is this the compromise you seek, to capitulate to terrorists pressures?

what sort of world will your children inherit if these are the standards of negotiations between opposing sides?

Once again see the links I included in my first post to you.

Arab land is so vast, what are the truths behind the bobbemienseh called 'occupation?' and all the other arguments, is it not just to CHISLE AWAY at Israel.

Please do not lend a hand.

But if YOU are not going to find better solutions to the problems than compromising the truths of the region, what will you do when the veil is removed and the next settlement is Tel Aviv?

Or do you have illusions about the world out there supporting THAT cause?

Already now, there are groups gathering to promote the discussion of Israel's right to exist. This is already included on respectable US University Campus grounds.

I hope you see my point. That the compromising may actually lead to a greater loss, unless the truth is the shining light for the compromise.

ps: i hope you get to meet some real "settlers" and visit with them so as to dispell your illusions and halt your varbage about them. They are also the same people who serve in the IDF.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Communication
Batman,

Other than your points about the terrain in the West Bank and the fact that the issue of settlements was kept open until final negotiation, I think that your attacks on Isiah are misguided if not unjustified. Part of the problem is the way these peace processes are set up. The US refrains from making decisions on all the major issues like final borders, refugees and control over holy sites until the end as a way to induce the parties to start the process, hoping that the sides can be eased along.

While I think that a good portion of the populations on both sides of the conflict could be satisfied with some equitable resolution, everyone is skeptical about the sincerity of the other sides’ commitment, and for good reason because both sides failed to live up to their commitments under Oslo and yet the process continued. The same thing is happening now under the Road Map. Because the leaders are military men and not diplomats, their primary goal is to retain as much negotiating power for when the time comes to settle those major issues, rather than commit to the slow process of building trust that the road map envisions. The result is that both sides take actions that make them look insincere in the eyes of the people and the outside world.

It’s a catch 22, really. The US cannot unilaterally decide the final outcome of the road map in advance and the UN, though more qualified in terms of imposing some decision on the parties through the force of a world body, has proven itself incapable of offering a less biased approach to the conflict than the US.

Communications:

I think you missed the point I tried to make to Isaiah.
He used a curse at the so called 'settlers.' This way of stripping people of their humanity by labling them and then ridding the world of them by saying F--them is not only brainless, but filled with hatered toward a group that is being demonized.

Apparantly, Isiah has expressed this and therefore needs to look at this very carefully.

He may or may not change his mind. But he needs to check his information and make sure he is not being manipulated against his own self and besides, I think that peace begins at home and how can you claim to want to compromise and have peace with your enemies when you can curse your brothers and sisters.

Something is not right with Isiah's stance. I sure hope it is NOT intentional, just plain stupid.

[Communication]

Yes, the way that this whole thing has unfolded is very unjust and yes, the Arab world is greedy. But whether we would have had to negotiate with Jordan or with the PA now, we would not have been able to maintain the West bank. The borders still are not fixed, they are still being left until final negotiations. The world can cry all they want. The problem I have is that both sides appear to agree to move towards a certain result and yet the methods that are put in place can never seem to get us there.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Communication
Yes, the way that this whole thing has unfolded is very unjust and yes, the Arab world is greedy. But whether we would have had to negotiate with Jordan or with the PA now, we would not have been able to maintain the West bank. The borders still are not fixed, they are still being left until final negotiations. The world can cry all they want. The problem I have is that both sides appear to agree to move towards a certain result and yet the methods that are put in place can never seem to get us there.

Perhaps that the reason we never get there is because the solution(s) is based on a lie.
2 sayings come to mind:
A table cannot stand on 3 legs: A lie has no legs.

The pressures of the world on Israel to do the wrong thing will only create more complications and less peace.

The honest thing is to NOT equate the two sides, because the goal of Israel is to live in peace and the goal of the Palestinian-Arabs egged on by the Arab world is to destroy Israel.

Neither can we strip the Palestinian Arabs of their historical connection with the Jordanian Arabs and other ARabs who should take responsibility for their brothers and sisters as Israel has done for its own Arab Jewish refugee population. This has never been done by the world which adores pressuring the Jews.


Did you read this link offered by Abu Afak in a previous post on this thread and which I think will permit for the truths behind the scripted lines to have their say!

Thanks Abu Afak!

http://www.tenc.net/gilwhite/Israel.htm

[Communication]

The site you posted has a lot of information so unless you point me to something specific, assume I know it all. How does that change the official position of the Israeli government, which is to negotiate with the PA on the final borders and creation of a Palestinian state?

[Mediocrates]

http://www.geocities.com/m_yericho/yishuvim.htm

It's helpful to understand who these people are and where they live. You have only your own prejudices to lose. I posted this elsewhere under "Who are the Jews of Yesha"

It divides the region into 8 areas and lists the communities in each region including population and 'type' such as religious, non religious and so on. One of the first things you will notice that nearly all of the communities with more than a few hundred people are significantly further WEST of Jerusalem.

It lists 82 religious communities , 90 non religious, mixed or urban and 9 are NA.

38 communities have more than 1000 people. 5 have more than 10000 people.

This leaves 143 communities of less than 1000 people each.

You can click on many of the sites and if you do you will see, particularly in the Gush, small communities indistinguishable from what might be the suburban housing development you yourself live in today.

If they were stucco and built on hillsides the 300 or so houses in my development would fit naturally there altough many of the communities have more or a West-Mex-Santa Fe look of them.

That's your invasion, your occupation.

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=58109#post58109

[Communication]

Mediocrates,

I found a map from the site you listed. From the map, it appears that the West Bank is dotted with settlements throughout:

http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/books/maps/map4.jpg


They may be small in terms of numbers, but what is their purpose?

[Mediocrates]

http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/books/maps/settleme.htm

Here is the intel on that map. They are there for no other purpose than being there.

http://www.biu.ac.il/SOC/besa/books/maps/mapfurth.htm


My only interest in dispelling the stereotype of the "Settler" as being some backhat wearing farmer with a gun slung over his back while kicking Palestinian children out of their homes. The map is clear most 'Settlers' are no only seculare, poor and urban but are living in suburban Jerusalem neighborhoods. The so called outposts account for a tiny tiny minority of people which if you believe the Palestinians account for an intolerable obstacle to peace - they must be removed by violence.

Yet even if I were a Palestinian Hevronite I'd have to get in my car and drive more than 10 miles outside of town across dry dusty nothing to get outr and shake my fist at Kiryat Arba (The Jewish Hebron), one of the largest 'settlements'.

Those other outcroppings account for a sliver of people proably smaller than 10% of the total. But if terrorists are going to dedicate their efforts to picking off those exposed people then the response they will see is IDF force. It stands to reason.

[old-reb]

Amnesty International condemns Israel's West Bank blockade

Amnesty International says Israeli military checkpoints, curfews and a new fence sealing off large parts of the West Bank are violating Palestinians' human rights.

A report by the human rights group details the impact of military restrictions on the movement of Palestinians nearly three years into fighting that has heightened Israel's emphasis on shielding itself from would-be attackers.

Among its recommendations, Amnesty is urging Israel to halt construction of the 370-mile fence along its frontier with the West Bank.

It says the barrier of razor wire, walls, fences and trenches is a major problem for tens of thousands of Palestinians.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_817260.html?menu=news.latestheadlines.worldnews

[Isiah 2:4]

Originally posted by Batman
First of all:
Please check your history and the justifications for cursing the settlers.


At the center of the fence dispute is the question of whether it should hew to the "Green Line" that existed before the 1967 Six-Day War - an armistice line between Israel and Jordan that was never accepted as an international border - or whether it should cut slightly into the West Bank to protect major Jewish settlements close to the Green Line.


Okay, my remarks have obviously been received by you in a way i did not wish to insinuate. You are angry now - but i was angry when i said it, but i should not have expressed by frustration in a way which could be interpretated as offensive.

Second of all:
Since you have no problem with this:
F------ the Palestinian Arabs
F------ the Arab settlers of the biblical Israel


Third of all

YOU SAY, IN MY NAME:


you do not know what I think.
I could care less if these Arabs stay there or move away.
It's only because they are hurting my people that anything they do actually matters.

If they didn't covet my land and it is my land covetted many centuries over by other people, but it is the ONLY land I've got!
then they can live and enjoy. I do not mind at all.

Batman all i wanted to express is my anxieties about how the settlers are increasingly becoming a problem for the Nation of Israel and the Jewish state. I know the truths and the facts of the conflict - but i do not subscribe to this forum in order to solely lament about the injustices of the conflict - i want to discuss solutions to the problems in a realistic way.

Remember they are my people too and considering that people with the same blood as me in their veins live in Modi'in, just 4 or 5 miles from the green line, i worry, i hurt and i grieve too.

You seem to interpret what i said as a hateful expression. It wasn't. I do not hate any settlers or any other Jews. NONE. I said i cannot respect them - and if you also look - i didn't place responsibilty on them to resolve the situations they now find themselves in, i said that the Israeli Government should do something about it.

If you want me to discuss with you my ideas about how to alleviate some of the problems we face now, please do so. I suspect we are of a close age and it would probably be a constructive thing.

You must picture me as some stereotypical Jew-I wonder if this Jew exists anywhere, just as you picture the stereotypical 'settler'- I wonder if this 'settler' exists anywhere.
This is the main reason I am offended by your comment, because you do sound like someone who does not pass judgement BUT here you have fallen into stereotyping your very own brothers and sisters, MERCILESSLY! AND UNTRUTHFULLY But it's only a figment of your imagination, I am very much NOT that.

I do not accept this batman. You know i have approached this forum with a very moderate tongue and have always displayed my loyalties to the jewish people. Sometimes this loyalty means dong whats best for the here and now, and not lingering on past events of which we have no control. I have never tried to be offensive, or judgemental. It was me if you remember who was streotyped and accused - first of not being Jewish, and then of being a self-hater.

I say what i say and i feel what i feel because i believe that, only in moderation, and in fairness to everyone can this conflict be resolved without causing additional tensions and brooding and long long lasting hatred.


However, what's fair is fair. And it's only fair that Jews should have a sliver of land and the Arabs should be less greedy and lie less.

Jordan is the ORIGINAL HOME OF THE PALESTINIAN ARABS. They can stay in Israel without causing problems. PERIOD.

But they have with the help of Jews who get paid by ARAB and EU $$$$$ and with the everlasting mistakes on the part of the HASBARA of ISRAEL guided by the SELL OUT PERES in these days and others before him, distorted the history of the region, which started (at least) with the Balfour Declaration.

You cannot correct the problem without going back to the root of the problem, Isaiah.

Please, i acknowledge this, because it is nothing new to me. You know that yourself.

The PISA is forever leaning and will never be straightened UNLESS we realign the foundation. In the case of the PISA it's actually really nice that it leans, but in the case of the land of Israel the root of the problem needs to be corrected because there is no peace unless there is truth.

You are right. But its not going to happen is it. is it?


The truth is there are no Palestinian Arabs, and they emerged as a result of the ARab goal to annihilate Israel, green line and all.

I agree with you, if you refer to Palestinians as a nation and a collective. But you cannot deny that they were Arabs living in the area for centuries, and that there are a people now, who exist, and are very much a problem for Israel's survuval and security.


PLEASE, permit your mind to allow this possibility in. The Arabs may come accross as friendly and phlegmatic, but no one weilds the knife better while smiling in your face.

On the other hand, if stopped and controlled through fear, which created the present peace between Israel and Egypt and Israel and Jordan, the Arabs may realize their goals are futile and start to seek peace and economic progress.

It is only after defeat that the ARabs of Egypt and Jordan laid down their hopes to destroy Israel.

I am not sure what youre top paragraph was meant to suggest.

Egypt and Jordan are at Peace with Israel because they are PAID to be at peace with Israel by the US. No more no less. They still have much bigger armies than Israel. But yes, we do have, if you'll excuse the term, G-ds Airforce.




The same needs to be done to a society of Arabs which fights Israel with the complete support of Arab nations: it's the only way the Arabs have managed to manipulate the equation and not appear like the aggressors, by promoting the present Palestinian Arab myth and culture so as to continue to fight Israel without consequences.

And yes, therefore Israel looks bad, fighting with armies against what appears to be a bunch of terrorists hiding behind children and women's skirts for cover.

Isn't it also true that Israel has a right to defend itself in the same manner as the US who went INTO foreign lands far away from the US borders to seek out the terror networks?


And yes, the Media reports only what it wants people to see - which is violence, violence and yes, failed peace efforts.

I don't agree with the US's policies right now, and as you know, i don't believe that their(the governments) support of Israel is anything more than superficial or strategic.

Israel has the right to defend herself completely. Pull back as close to the Green line as poss, including all the major conurbations. Fortify a border, tell the world youve relinquished 'the occupation' , for now. Then when Hamas and the like fire rockets at you, go back in and bomb them in an undeniably legitimate retaliation.



Why do you curse the settlers? that is the most hurtful attitude for all Jews. When we turn against each other. The settlers resisting the IDF is not the same as YOU cursing them. The settlers resisting ISrael caving into US and EU and Arab Oil pressures is their right, just as people in any democratically ran country can resist.

What do mean it is not the same? If i show support for my Nation, the Nation of Israel, through debate and consructive discussion that is not okay. But resisting the control of you own government, that acts in order to oblige to an international peace plan and make progressions towards peace, so that peace can be secured for you country, is perfectly alright. Its perfectly okay for settlers to do that?

[Isiah 2:4]

Cont...


Yet the settlers did not resort to spilling the blood of their IDF brothers! And since the GReen line was never the accepted
border and the settlers were originally urged to live in those areas, how can you curse them for their right to resist a move by the Israeli government that completely throws out their rights to retain their homes? The so called 'illigal settlements' byJews are being removed, but HOW MANY ILLIGAL SETTLEMENTS BY ARABS HAVE BEEN REMOVED BY ISRAEL'S GOVERNMENT?


Many soldiers and settlers have been injured in fighting. Guns were used by BOTH protagonists sometimes, if i recall.


In other words, if Arabs do not fight they get to stay peacefully on the land but i Jews live peacefully on the land they get to be removed.

Is that right? Is this the compromise you seek, to capitulate to terrorists pressures?

what sort of world will your children inherit if these are the standards of negotiations between opposing sides?

Once again see the links I included in my first post to you.

Arab land is so vast, what are the truths behind the bobbemienseh called 'occupation?' and all the other arguments, is it not just to CHISLE AWAY at Israel.

Please do not lend a hand.

But if YOU are not going to find better solutions to the problems than compromising the truths of the region, what will you do when the veil is removed and the next settlement is Tel Aviv?

Or do you have illusions about the world out there supporting THAT cause?

Already now, there are groups gathering to promote the discussion of Israel's right to exist. This is already included on respectable US University Campus grounds.

I hope you see my point. That the compromising may actually lead to a greater loss, unless the truth is the shining light for the compromise.

ps: i hope you get to meet some real "settlers" and visit with them so as to dispell your illusions and halt your varbage about them. They are also the same people who serve in the IDF.

I do not want any of that and you know it. I just want to offer some affordable, and alternative methods of relieving the pressures and the constraints of the whole affair.

I should have just said f--- the settlements really shouldnt I.

[Mediocrates]

Let's just cut through it - The notion of defensible borders only means anything in the context of traditional warfare, "Armies of the Night" kind of thing. And that's not a battle that anyone is fighting right now.

No, the kind of war Israel is engaged in doesn't have any borders so the only secure borders exist in someone's head, in the realm of politics. The only response is to eliminate the threat of terrorism utterly first and then some people can sit down like civilized people and discuss the downstream effects of negotiating where borders lie.

That is, setting 'defensible borders' a priori is pointless and futile. The first task is to obliterate terrorists into the dirt. That action will shape the argument of what 'borders' means.

[old-reb]

Many would be terrorist were caught or killed crossing that border which resulted in many lives save.

old reb