The Ayalon Nusseibeh initiative

[sharonbn]

It's not based on true love, or even altruism. The Israeli side, with its formidable resources, is a well-oiled machine compared to the one-man show on the Palestinian side. But former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon and noted Palestinian intellectual Sari Nusseibeh are certain that their peace initiative will succeed where others have failed

The Palestinian Ph.D. in philosophy and the retired Israeli admiral, who was also the head of the Shin Bet security service, launched their ambitious peace initiative on June 25. Their aim is to have the members of the two nations sign a six-point Statement of Principles that they formulated, and which they signed on July 27, 2002

The main points of the agreement are:
* Israel will withdraw to the lines of June 4, 1967
* The Palestinians will establish a state on 100 percent of the territory that Israel conquered in the 1967 Six-Day War. To reduce the number of settlers who will have to leave their homes, "border modifications" may be introduced, "based on an equitable and agreed-upon territorial exchange" at a ratio of 1:1.
* The Palestinians will forgo their demand to realize the right of return, with the refugees making do with financial compensation and the opportunity to reside in the state of Palestine.
* The Palestinian state will be demilitarized.
* As for Jerusalem, it will be "an open city, the capital of two states," with the Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian sovereignty and the Jewish neighborhoods under Israeli sovereignty. "Neither side will exercise sovereignty over the holy places." The arrangement will be that Palestine "will be designated Guardian of Haram al-Sharif [the
Temple Mount] for the benefit of Muslims. Israel will be the Guardian of the Western Wall for the benefit of the Jewish people."
* Both sides will agree that "the full implementation of these principles" will mark the end of the conflict.

The official invitation to the public to sign the Statement of Principles was issued two
weeks ago. Full-page ads with photographs of Ayalon and Nusseibeh appeared in the Hebrew papers, under the slogan, "The People's Voice - signing an end to the conflict." The ads were published in the Palestinian press a few days earlier, under the headline, "The people's campaign for peace and democracy."

The success of the venture has been astounding so far, say the Israelis who are involved: At the beginning of this week, after the first 10 days, nearly 20,000 people had signed. "There were times when we had 700 people on hold," says Dror Sternschuss, from the Zarfatti-Sternschuss-Zamir ad agency, which is responsible for the campaign on the Israeli side. Across the Green Line, Nusseibeh said that nearly 2,000 Palestinians had signed so far. Given the conditions in which Nusseibeh is working, that number is considered a success. However, as everyone knows, in the months ahead the disparity is liable to hover as a question mark casting a shadow over the success of the entire project.

For the rest of the article in Haaretz (requires registration)
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=316382&contrassID=2&subContrassID=14&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

The peoples’ voice site
http://www.mifkad.org.il/eng/PrinciplesAgreement.asp

[sharonbn]

I intend to sign the petition. although I believe it wil not materialize, I also beieve it is important to show that Israelis are willing to compromise for the sake of true peace, to show the Pals that they do have a partner.

I hope the Pals think the same...

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by sharonbn
* Israel will withdraw to the lines of June 4, 1967


Isn't that the line of 1949 cease fire. It is so indefensible, that Abba Eban called it "the Auschwitz borders".



Both sides will agree that "the full implementation of these principles" will mark the end of the conflict.
...
I also beieve it is important to show that Israelis are willing to compromise for the sake of true peace, to show the Pals that they do have a partner.

I hope the Pals think the same...


What makes you think the Pales think so? AFAIK, so far they have broken every single committment and promise. None of Muslim/Arab leaders accepted that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state. The jihaducation continues as we speak. Seriously, what do you imagine will happen with HAMAS, IJ, al Aqsa, etc? Will Nusseibeh or Abbas disarm them?

IMHO, you are too nice and by projecting that on the Pales, you're hoping against all the odds that it will be appreciated by those who swore to destroy Israel and they will suddenly stop. I wish! Don't you see it's excellent "business model" to terrorize the Jews? You get endless concessions, you get money and sympathies from everywhere... Otherwise, who in the world would care about some tiny 23rd Arab state with no oil and nothing to sell?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Isn't that the line of 1949 cease fire. It is so indefensible, that Abba Eban called it "the Auschwitz borders".
First of all, Israel existed for 20 years with these borders. the 1967 war was NOT about extending the borders, but about the closing of the Tiran straits.
Second, the borders of Palestine will be equally undefensible against Israeli agression. So?

and what makes you so reassured about the current Israeli border? Did it stop the Egyptian and Syrian armies in 1973?

We have to accept that Israel can never rest behind "defensible borders" because there aren't gonna be any. he solution is not military but diplomatic. This is what this initiative is all about. An integral part of the initiative is the peace agreement. When you have peace, like Israel has with Egypt and Jordan, that's when you can say Israel has defensible borders.


Originally posted by humus_sapiens
What makes you think the Pales think so? AFAIK, so far they have broken every single committment and promise. None of Muslim/Arab leaders accepted that Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state. The jihaducation continues as we speak. Seriously, what do you imagine will happen with HAMAS, IJ, al Aqsa, etc? Will Nusseibeh or Abbas disarm them?
Your basic assumption is that Palestinians wish the destruction of Israel and wish to kill al Jewish Israelis. You see the Palestinian terror and rethoric and bath in your victimhood. You don't see the daily humiliation that Palestinian civillians endure in IDF roadblocks, the hopelessness of their lives in the refugee camps.

There was an article in Haaretz about a Jewish teacher who goes to Palestinian schools to teach them Hebrew. She tells that she gave her pupils an assignment to draw their dreams and aspirations on paper. Most of them drew a simple house. She though they didn't understand her, but it turns out that the children dn't have any dreams - they are deperived of any chance of high education, of a respectable jobs and normal family lives - they have nothing to look for.

The Palestinians see the Israeli opression, the killing of civillians. They bath in THEIR victimhood. They don't see Israeli terror victims.

I am not trying to excuse Palestinian terror. I say that the scale of justice does not tilt in any one side. Both sides have done a fine job of dehumanizing each other into monstrous murders who wish the total destrcution of the other side. Both sides sufferred immensly because their leaders had an interest in prolonging the conflict.

This initiative attempts to do one thing: To show Israelis and Palestinians that the other side is made up of people similar to our people. The Palestinians do not wish to kill all Jews and to see the destruction of Israel. They wish to live in peace in an independant state. Hamas, Jihad et al do NOT represent Palestinian populat opinion. This initiative attempts to show that there is a partner for peace.

whether or not it succeeds in this attempt, is dependant upon how successful the petition will be.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by sharonbn

The main points of the agreement are:
* As for Jerusalem, it will be "an open city, the capital of two states," with the Arab neighborhoods under Palestinian sovereignty and the Jewish neighborhoods under Israeli sovereignty. "Neither side will exercise sovereignty over the holy places." The arrangement will be that Palestine "will be designated Guardian of Haram al-Sharif [the
Temple Mount] for the benefit of Muslims. Israel will be the Guardian of the Western Wall for the benefit of the Jewish people."


Jerusalem "an open city" means that all palestinians (terrorists and criminals included) might cross freely the israeli border. Doesn't sound very attractive to me.

[Communication]

How does that work? Does the international community own Jerusalem? Does the document mention what would happen in the event of a major earthquake? What about the the holy sites in Hebron, Nabulus, etc...and the Mount. of Olives?

What would be done for security around Jerusalem? Would both sides install look out towers? What did they do before 67 and how effective was that compared to today?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Communication
How does that work? Does the international community own Jerusalem? Does the document mention what would happen in the event of a major earthquake? What about the the holy sites in Hebron, Nabulus, etc...and the Mount. of Olives?
The petition is a mission statement, not a detailed plan or timetable. It states that the holy places in Jerusalem will be owned by no one. This is purely a diplomatic statement. This is aimed to defuse a highly charged emotional situation regarding the declaration of "sovereignty" over holy places. It bears no significance in practical terms.
The petition does assign "guardianship" to Palestine and Israel, meaning the responsibility for the maintenance, order, etc.
I guess other holy places can fall under the same solution.


Originally posted by Communication
What would be done for security around Jerusalem? Would both sides install look out towers? What did they do before 67 and how effective was that compared to today?
before 67 it was an int'l border between hostile neighbors, with barbwire, concrete walls, machinegun outposts, etc. It certainly isnot the desired solution. I guess they will work out some plan of road blocks and joint patrols. I further assume these measures will only be needed as long as the threat of terror is imminent. Onve confidence and peace will prevail, these security measures will decrease, until, hopefully in some 20-30 years from now, the border will be opened, like in Europe.

I know this sounds extremely unrealistic in the present situation, but it also took Europe a few decades to reach the present status. You have to start SOMETIME, and have a vision of what you want. or like Mao said, every journey begins with one step.

[L@mplighterM]

The Arabs never accepted the incorporation of the State of Israel; they never have and never will. Weapons and the willingness to use them have kept the Israeli flag flying in Israel and such will be that country’s fate until the end.

If the State of Israel demilitarized then I think you’d have to be simpleminded not to know the outcome.

Abbas and Arafat are playing the good cop bad cop role right now and I think that much of the world is swallowing it up. Abbas calls for peace and Arafat calls for martyrs therefore we’re supposed to believe that Abbas is sincere and has the best interest in mind for both parties.

It seems like a well coordinated scam to me bearing the message that if Israelis accept Abbas’s way then their future will be bright and rosy, because he’s the one that will turn the terrorists into lambs.

Peace initiatives have come and vanished into the pages of history and so will the Ayalon Nusseibeh initiative.

An agreement along the lines of the Ayalon Nusseibeh initiative would not be a bad if a clause was added to the conditions.

Clause:

I the undersigned agree that I, my heirs and successive heirs will relinquish all rights to the West Bank and Gaza Strip if one terrorist act is committed after the signing of The Ayalon Nusseibeh initiative and its implementation.
Not only that we will willingly relocate to Jordan, Egypt and/or to where we originated if there’s a violation of The Ayalon Nusseibeh initiative.
I, my heirs and successive heirs will transfer all property to Israel, without legal recourse for the sum of one (1) Shekel upon such breach of The Ayalon Nusseibeh initiative.


Obviously that’s just a working copy that requires more work nevertheless it could form the bases for an agreement.

I guess that I forgot that every adult Palestinian would have to sign.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Your basic assumption is that Palestinians wish the destruction of Israel and wish to kill al Jewish Israelis. You see the Palestinian terror and rethoric

Let's make one thing clear. The conflict is not between Israel and the Palestinians. It is betweeen Muslims/Arabs (including Iran, Pakistan, etc.) and Israel as a Jewish state. If the Pales suddenly disappear tomorrow, will the Islamic world embrace or even tolerate Israel?



and bath in your victimhood. You don't see the daily humiliation that Palestinian civillians endure in IDF roadblocks, the hopelessness of their lives in the refugee camps.


I feel sorry for all. But you are bathing in their victimhood and mixing the cause and effect. The "refugee" camps are designed and kept in this miserable condition on purpose. Show me any other refugees in the 4th generation! When do they stop being refugees already? Why the Arabs, who started one aggressive war after another, won't take responsibility for the Arab refugees just as Israel took care of Jewish refugees?

It is long overdue to expect the confidence buiding gestures from the Arab world. And remind them that their leaders must be responsible for any and every step, positive or negative. Unlike in the last 100+ years.

[Communication]

I think that there should be some public acknowledgement in the Arab world regarding the Jewish refugees from the ME. Only Morocco acknowledges what happened and it's not like those Jews are going to ever receive compensation for all of the peoperty that was taken from them let alone a right of return.

[MGB8]

The statement is A SUICIDE PACT. Israel CANNOT AFFORD TO RELY ON ARAB GOODWILL FOR ITS SECURITY. Will the peaceniks PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT!

NOTHING guarantees arab goodwill. Not concessions. Not pieces of paper. In fact, the ONLY guarantee we've had in a long time IS THE ATOM BOMB.

Guess what - when the Pal - Arab popultion keeps exploding, do you really think that the '49 borders will be good enough for them. Or that europe will back Israel, when Arab oil is at stake.

GET REAL!

What is it with the lefties and their REFUSAL to SEE REALITY. Reality is that ISRAEL is ALONE, that you cannot trust ANYONE, that STRENGTH and STRENGTH ALONE is what you can rely on for your security. Might. Power. Forget the friggin camp songs and think Machiavelli and sun-tzu. Learn your history.

Israeli Agression? Are you kidding? even 56 wasn't "Israeli Agression" - it was BRITISH-FRENCH Agression - which used Israel as a convenient spearhead and scapegoat.

Arrrghghgh.....

Stupid cowardly peaceniks...."give them what they want (surrender) and maybe they'll go away...." - EXCEPT, WHAT IF THEY DON'T!!!!

[MGB8]

Additionally, SharonBN....have you SEEN THE POLL DATA - the Pals DO want to destroy Israel. They DO deny its legitimacy. I think that you agree with them, too. And, only when SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES (ie. Israeli military action) happens do you hear ANY voices to stop, or do those poll numbers change.

GROW THE F UP & FACE REALITY. The Arabs don't like the existance of Israel for "pride reasons" and religious reasons. Not that they showed much pride in attacking on Yom Kippur or in firing from positions behind children and women.

They've been taught to hate Israel for about a century - since well before its existence.


CO-existence will ONLY BE POSSIBLE when the Arabs realize that people like me and other Zionists will avenge a possible destruction of Israel with the ruthless and morality less obliteration of Mecca, Medina, and every other important Arab and Islamic site. Every single one. A human version of the Angel of Death.

Only when they understand the inevitable consequences - the harm to them - from their deeply held desire - will they abandon that desire.

I repeat my promise to any Arabs or Muslims who may be on this board. I will take the Qu'rans "eye-for-an-eye" quite literally.

You think the Jews are clever - just wait until you see exactly how clever Jews can be in getting Nuclear weapons to hit Arab and Islamic cities. We will not start the war.....but, on G-d's name, we WILL finish it.

[danholo]

I found this "initiative" rather interesting, since I know deep down that both sides only want peace, yet I believe on both sides a handful of misunderstandings have beocome a disaster and given birth to deep hatred on both sides.

I only wish something like this initiative would be possible but I'm sceptical. There will always be friction that will create fire on both sides no matter how many peace loving people there might be.

[Communication]

Here is a peace initative from an organization in San Francisco that is made up mostly of Jews but also some Arabs and Others:

1. A return of Israel to the pre-1967 borders with "minor border changes mutually agreed upon" (this is the language that both sides agreed to at Taba in 2001 just before Ariel Sharon was elected, and it means that Israel would retain control over the Wall and sections of Jerusalem that had a Jewish majority at the time of the signing of Oslo).

2. Creation of an economically and politically viable Palestinian state in all of Gaza and the West Bank (with minor border modifications specified in point one).

3. An international fund to provide compensation for Palestinian refugees (sufficient for them to be able to live at a standard comparable to the average standard of living of Israelis), compensation for Jews who fled Arab lands between 1948–1967 (because we are even-handed and recognize that the Arab Israeli war has caused suffering to both sides), and funding to help resettle Israeli settlers within the pre-1967 borders of Israel. Israeli settlers should be allowed to stay in their settlements if they agree to become fully law-abiding citizens of the Palestinian state, understanding that they are no longer citizens of Israel and that Israel will not intervene on their behalf should their future actions be found to be in violation of the laws of the new Palestinian state. No place in the world should be judenrein—Jews should be able to live in Palestine just as Palestinians live in Israel.

4. Recognition of Israel by all surrounding Arab states, through peace treaties and normalization of relations in all respects.

5. Sharing water and joint cooperation on ecological issues.

6. Joint cooperation in fighting the extremists on both sides who will inevitably continue violence after this agreement is implemented, possibly for decades to come.

7. Decisive steps to end the indoctrination of hatred of the other side in the media and school systems of both peoples, plus creation of institutions to foster reconciliation and a new attitude of generosity, trust, and mutual respect.

If this settlement were agreed upon by both sides now, as the first step of the process, then the moderates would be able to offer their own populations something real and tangible if they would cooperate in isolating their extremists. Now, add one other ingredient: Let Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and the United States jointly proclaim that no matter what acts of violence are done between now and the end of the road map, the terms of this settlement will in fact be implemented in three years and a Palestinian state living in peace with Israel and occupying all of the West Bank and Gaza will come into existence. That would disempower the extremists further. At that point, the rest of the road map could be implemented...

[L@mplighterM]

If anything the world has become a more violent place. Before the 1967 war Jordan controlled the WB and Egypt the GS but they wanted all of Israel.

It’s not a minor mistake wanting to destroy your neighbors and preparing to do the same.

Quite frankly I think that you have to be a romantic to believe that the Palestinian situation will disappear if the borders are returned to 1967. Wishful thinking!

As sure as the sun rises in the East, some Arabs/Muslims want to kill Jews and that will remain a constant.

Everything that Arabs are offered they once had but discarded it in a quest to drench Israeli soil with Jewish blood. If they had been successful I don’t think there would have been too much mourning around the world.

[MGB8]

Exactly.

The Pal-Arabs have been raised believing that Israel should be destroyed and is on the stolen land of their ancestors (regardless of the fact that this is a big lie.) In fact, MOST OF THE ARAB WORLD has been raised like this.

Would a return to the 67 borders get rid of the people who are devouted to the destruction of Israel - where would they magically disapear to? And when things get hard - and things ALWAYS get hard - who would the people blame...themselves, or Israel? When they couldn't have 100% full sovereingty (borders) or allowed terrorist attacks from inside the new Pal-Arab state - what then? When the population grows so much to demand expansion - what then? Would people really give up their heartfelt desire for a non-existant right of return?

Open your eyes, people, please....before you cause the death of more Jews with your naivete.



Originally posted by L@mplighterM
If anything the world has become a more violent place. Before the 1967 war Jordan controlled the WB and Egypt the GS but they wanted all of Israel.

It’s not a minor mistake wanting to destroy your neighbors and preparing to do the same.

Quite frankly I think that you have to be a romantic to believe that the Palestinian situation will disappear if the borders are returned to 1967. Wishful thinking!

As sure as the sun rises in the East, some Arabs/Muslims want to kill Jews and that will remain a constant.

Everything that Arabs are offered they once had but discarded it in a quest to drench Israeli soil with Jewish blood. If they had been successful I don’t think there would have been too much mourning around the world.

[L@mplighterM]

Way back when computers (80886) were in their infancy, I bought a program for my kids that sort of made predictions. It was called “ Ask ?” (I forgot the name) in any event it was a lot of fun at the time, but of course now software is far more sophisticated. Spreadsheet programs like Excel have amazing mathematical capabilities.

If one was to design a software program with all the facts pertaining to the security and breaches of the same to Israel since 1948 to the present and then ask if there are prospects for peace, I’m certain that the answer would be no.

Unlike humans machines judge by facts and facts alone and IMO that makes them far better judges in a given situation. I’m certain that there’s a desire to grab an olive branch in Israel and I understand that. By grabbing that branch, doors may open that will lead to the destruction of Israel.

Golda Meir once said "We will have peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us." and that’s true to a point. L@mplighter believes that there will be peace when Jews are allowed to publish pro Israeli articles (present their side of the situation) in Arab/Muslim newspapers on the front page.

[sharonbn]

Update: Wolfowitz supports Ayalon-Nussiebeh peace plan

The United States Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz expressed his support Thursday for the "People's Voice" initiative drawn up by former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon and President of the Al-Quds University Sari Nusseibeh.

The two presented Wolfowitz with the main principles of the plan during a meeting in Washington last week. Wolfowitz said that plan was very similar in nature to the road map to Middle East peace, the internationally-brokered plan envisioning a two-state solution by 2005.

According to the the People's Voice Web site, some 94,000 Israelis and 60,000 Palestinians have signed up for the plan, which also calls for a two-state solution, as well as an end to the Palestinian right of return to lands within the State of Israel.

Wolfowitz, the most senior Jewish official in the Bush administration's diplomatic-security staff, is considered to be the most prominent speaker of the "neo-conservative" group in the Republican Party, and the ideologue behind the Iraq war.

Blair welcomes Geneva Accord
British Prime Minister Tony Blair said on Thursday an unofficial plan for Middle East peace that has been dismissed by the Israeli
government was a welcome contribution to the debate over the region's future.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/355611.html

[danholo]

Would the Israeli electorate vote for Labour if these people would run and present this plan? How would the Palestinians be able to oust Arafat, thus giving some hopes for peace?

[Miriam]

It is an amusing thought that "Geneva" might have boosted this plan

[Noam]

"L@mplighter believes that there will be peace when Jews are allowed to publish pro Israeli articles (present their side of the situation) in Arab/Muslim newspapers on the front page."

Strong point.
Always avoided and shunned

1.3 Billion Muslims and not ONE PRO ISRAEL (the few like WND, Tahir, The Italian guy...are pariahs and have to fend for their lives).

I would call that a BRAIN WASHED HERD to the N-th degree. And some of them are rather bright adademicians.

Israel with 5 million Jews has Meretz, Sarid, Beilin, Benziman. Avnery, Shahak, Shamir, Hass, Levi...Shaom Achshav, Btzelem....27 pilots, refusniks galore (Netanyhu nephew), Aviv Gefen.....

Rather long list.

How can 1.3 Billion Muslims be so blind and herdlike?!

OTOH--- that is ONE HECK OF A SIGN OF WEAKNESS!!!!

That same herd will turn in one fell swoop and will do like the boy did to Saddams Statue: Hit it with his shoe.

To say nothing of 600,000,000 Muslim women that one day will castrate all their chauvenistic abusing depraved men!

[sharonbn]

Wow, so the left wing in Israel is actually a testimony of the strength and openness of Israeli society...

and I naively thought that ppl here believe the left only seeking power, is destroying Israel and that we're all agents of PLO - hardly an evidence to anything good.

and this is coming from a person who wrote that "Yossi Beilin is a Quizling faggot that should be shot on the spot!" I wonder what this statement says about Israeli society...

[Noam]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Wow, so the left wing in Israel is actually a testimony of the strength and openness of Israeli society...

and I naively thought that ppl here believe the left only seeking power, is destroying Israel and that we're all agents of PLO - hardly an evidence to anything good.

and this is coming from a person who wrote that "Yossi Beilin is a Quizling faggot that should be shot on the spot!" I wonder what this statement says about Israeli society...

You are young and naiive ( which is no crime so far)

The WHOLE TALMUD is writtend on the basis of MACHLOKET.
(2 ochazin betalit..... Baba Batra)

Israel--our name means--THE ONE WHO FOUGHT WITH G-D!!!

Moses could say to G-d...you do this--Or Im going to Switzerland!

We have TWO types of Machlokot. Lesham Shamaim (Hilel and Shamay) and Not for Heavens sake (Korach)...

The first disputation led to one of the GREATES BODY OF THOUGHT in the history of mankind. (The wealth of Talmud, Mishan, Ramabam, Ramban, Yehuda Halevi...... you name it)

THe second ? Korach DIED. THe land swallowed him and ALL HIS FOLLOWERS.
Beilin is Korach. He is the second type of dispute--he will be obliterated.

However, the Strength that comes from the open mindedness is UNDENIABLE. (the Voltair Paradigm)

[sharonbn]

So the articulate statement about Beilin as a Quizling faggot that should be shot on the spot is in line with the legacy of machloket you so nicely outlined...

goes to show just how much Judaism is a tollerant religion.

[Noam]

Originally posted by sharonbn
So the articulate statement about Beilin as a Quizling faggot that should be shot on the spot is in line with the legacy of machloket you so nicely outlined...

goes to show just how much Judaism is a tollerant religion.

Why is that important?
The fact is that Jews do NOT go around murdering other peope because they are Muslims. Arabs do that. (and in the Past Christians did it)

Judaism says Do not murder, but also :The one who comes to kill you ,... you shall kill him first./

You seem to be embroiled in tollerance.... Then I guess Islam is perfect for you.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Noam
Why is that important?
I believe its important to show that you make hateful statements and call for the killing of left wing leaders and at the same time use the same people to brag about Israeli society superiority over Arab one. It is called hypocricy. I happen to think its important, but that's just me.


Originally posted by Noam
The fact is that Jews do NOT go around murdering other peope because they are Muslims. Arabs do that. (and in the Past Christians did it)
See if you remember these names: Baruch Goldstein, Ami Popper, Jewish underground, Bat Ain terrorist cell.
See if you remember these incidents: Dier Yassin, Kfar Qasem, Qibiya.
See what you think of this incident, reported on this weekend edtition of Haaretz:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/355227.html
Here's a snip:

There was a particularly festive atmosphere at the Nirim outpost on August 12, 1949, the eve of Shabbat. At exactly 8 P.M. the soldiers took their places and platoon commander Moshe recited the blessing over the wine. He then gave a Zionist pep talk,
reiterating the importance of the unit's mission and the troops' contribution to the infant state. When he finished the soldiers burst into song, told jokes, ate and drank. A merry time was had by all.

Shortly before the end of the party, at about 9:30, the platoon commander asked for quiet. He got up and, with a smile on his face, reminded the soldiers about the Bedouin girl they had caught earlier that day during a patrol in their sector. They had brought her to the outpost and she was now locked up in one of the huts. Platoon commander Moshe said he was putting forward two options for a vote. The first was that the Bedouin girl would become the outpost's kitchen worker; the second was for the soldiers to have their way with her. The proposals got an enthusiastic reception. A melee ensued. The soldiers raised their hands and the second option was accepted by majority vote. "We want to ," the soldiers chanted.

The commander decided on the order: Squad A on day one, Squad B on day two and Squad C on day three. The driver, Corporal Shaul, asked jokingly, "And what about the drivers? Are they orphans?" The platoon commander replied that they were part of the staff squad, together with the sergeant, the squad commanders, the cooks, the medic and he himself, of course. He
added a threat - if any of the soldiers touch the girl "the tommy [tommy gun] will talk." The soldiers took this as a warning not to violate the order the commander had decreed.

Thus began one of the ugliest and most appalling episodes in the history of the Israel Defense Forces. Even at a remove of 54 years, it is difficult to understand how an event of this kind could have happened with the participation, active or less active, of dozens of soldiers in uniform.

[Noam]

"See if you remember these names: Baruch Goldstein, Ami Popper, Jewish underground, Bat Ain terrorist cell.
See if you remember these incidents: Dier Yassin, Kfar Qasem, Qibiya."

You are an Idiot.

THe best parents HIT AND INSULT THEIR CHIDREN ONCE in a while
US has a very checkered past (Murdering the INDIAN NATION, Slavery, Vietnam to name a few).... that does not make them MUrderers.

For you to bring again and again those SINGULAR incidences of demented Jews like Goldstein who did wrong and use it as a general case.. puts you on my ignore list.

[Communication]

I think I am going to support this initiative and start promoting it here in the US. :)

[danholo]

I'm more increasingly starting to understand Arik Sharon's line on this issue. Without Arafat, there would be no current terror war for obvious reasons (import of illegal weapons, incetement, propaganda and lies in the media, iron fisted rule, corruption etc.). It is unfortunate that most of the world does not understand this and did not let Sharon extend Operation Defensive Shield as long as all the weapons that the Palestinians had were accounted for. It helped, but not enough.

Unfortunately invading all the territories, dismantiling the PA terror regime and doing what the US is doing now in Iraq might not work and the international community would go and "save" the Palestinians from this "brutal" Israeli "aggression".

(Hey! 1000th post!)

[Jorge]

Danholo : First,congratulations on your 1000th post!
Second: your appraisal of Mr. Sharon’s line is a bit flawed. Quote from your post # 29:

I'm more increasingly starting to understand Arik Sharon's line on this issue. Without Arafat, there would be no current terror war for obvious reasons (import of illegal weapons, incetement, propaganda and lies in the media, iron fisted rule, corruption

To think that if Mr. Arafat were to vanish one sunny morning, Palestinian terror would cease is a grossly simplistic view of the present conflict. (I would even call it a childish view, but I don’t want to sound offensive). I don’t think that even Mr. Sharon believes it; in my opinion it’s simply another of his delaying tactics of postponing negotiations until…. The untils change from month to month: until terrorism stops altogether, until it stops for a week, until terrorist organizations are dismantled, until a Prime Minister is appointed, until Mr. Arafat disappears from the face of the planet. There is always some official reason for the government to delay re-initiation of talks with the Palestinians, which may be interpreted to mean that his government is not at all interested in doing so.

Going back to the Ayalon- Nusseibeh initiative, which happens to be the title of this Thread, it’s interesting to report that up to last week, 100.000 Israelis and 60.000 Palestinians have signed the Declaration of Principles. The 100.000 in the Israeli side is really no big deal, because the number of people associated with the so-called Peace Coalition is greater than that. What is quite remarkable is the number of Palestinian signatures. Sixty thousand may not look that much but, given the conditions prevalent in the Palestinian side, the number is remarkable. It remains to be seen how much support the signatories can gather in the “Palestinian street” but, the remarkable thing is that for the first time a pro-peace non-governmental initiative gets a such a substantial backing at various levels of their society. To try to gather signatures for initiatives of this kind in happy Tel Aviv is not quite the same thing as doing it in a refugee camp, especially when the said initiative contains a clause renouncing the Right of Return.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Jorge
[B]To try to gather signatures for initiatives of this kind in happy Tel Aviv is not quite the same thing as doing it in a refugee camp, especially when the said initiative contains a clause renouncing the Right of Return.

It's one of the reasons why it's so upsetting to see Europe spending so much money to promote the Geneva Accords rather than the One Voice Initiative. I suppose Europe wants the credit of a peace initiative.

[Enuff]

actually villapin or chrap stated they, the EU, had a 'much more extensive tool box or tools' to deal with the problems of middle-eastern countries. what they forgot to mention was, they lacked the 'nuts and bolts' to get anything done. ;)

[danholo]

To think that if Mr. Arafat were to vanish one sunny morning, Palestinian terror would cease is a grossly simplistic view of the present conflict. (I would even call it a childish view, but I don’t want to sound offensive). I don’t think that even Mr. Sharon believes it; in my opinion it’s simply another of his delaying tactics of postponing negotiations until…. The untils change from month to month: until terrorism stops altogether, until it stops for a week, until terrorist organizations are dismantled, until a Prime Minister is appointed, until Mr. Arafat disappears from the face of the planet. There is always some official reason for the government to delay re-initiation of talks with the Palestinians, which may be interpreted to mean that his government is not at all interested in doing so.

Negotiations are meaningless when the other party is not sincere! What kind of results do you expect from a party that is compromised by terror and is thoroughly corrupt on every level and acts like the local mafia but in this case it's legal?! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! If you just want negotiations because of the sake of negotiations, fine. It will get you absolutely nowhere as it took Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu and Barak absolutely NOWHERE. It seems that for some people, history teaches absolutely nothing.

And what the f is sharon "waiting" for? What's with the "delaying tactic"?! When there is no party to negotiate with, there is no party to negotiate with. Now the Israeli government is trying to talk to Abu Ala but lets see where that gets us.

[Jorge]

From Communication post #31:

It's one of the reasons why it's so upsetting to see Europe spending so much money to promote the Geneva Accords rather than the One Voice Initiative.

Well, not much to be upset about . Thing is that the bill for the logistics of the Geneva Accords has been much larger than the Ayalon-Nusseibeh initiative. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t be surprised if the cost of the latter is also partly financed by foreign donations.

The sad fact is that, in this blessed country of ours, very few things move without international financing. From the 4 billion US to foot the bill of new planes for the Air Force, to the bill for a humble ambulance, international financing or donations are in place when needed. Some cynics say that even our local philantropes are internationally financed.

Too much fuss has been done on the issue of Europeans footing plane and hotel bills for the participants of the Geneva thing, ignoring the sad fact mentioned above.
No one thinks of mentioning that most religious parties and organizations depend on foreign donations; that substantial money from foreign donations is used to acquire land and expand settlements, some of the illegal. It appears that even our local Mafia is financed by the Russian one; not that we are much proud of it, really.

[Jorge]

Quotes from Danholo post #33:

Negotiations are meaningless when the other party is not sincere!

Danholo: isn’t it about time for someone to tell you about the bees and the flowers and other facts of life? The facts of life include the one that in negotiations between rivals or opponents, parties are never sincere; if they were, diplomats would be in street corners begging for bread.

If you just want negotiations because of the sake of negotiations, fine.

No I don’t; the only people that may conceivable be willing to waste their time in that way are the said diplomats.

It will get you absolutely nowhere as it took Rabin, Peres, Netanyahu and Barak absolutely NOWHERE.

Negotiations are the necessary preamble to an agreement. No one knows beforehand whether the agreement will be reached or not; neither whether the agreement reached is going to be respected by both sides. Rabin and Netanyahu, after negotiations, arrived to agreements which were later violated by both sides.
Peres and Barak conducted negotiations that did not led to agreements. Right now the situation is at a standstill which is hurting both Israelis and Palestinians; to my knowledge, there are two ways to break this impasse:a)negotiations that may lead to an agreement or, b) an imposed unilateral decision. Apparently you prefer b) to a), while with me is the opposite.

It seems that for some people, history teaches absolutely nothing.

You are absolutely right in that. It happens with a lot of people; with some is not really their fault because they don’t know enough History. To me it teaches that submitting other people against their will to a condition of national dependence is a policy that is bound to fail sooner or later. True, in colonial times the conquering lasted sometimes for centuries, but, as you know, social processes are much faster nowadays.

History also teaches that some conflicts between nations, peoples or countries take longer than others to be solved. Nuclear disarmament for instance required long and protracted negotiations, the struggle of the black people in the US for their civil rights has been a long and painful process, whilst the struggle of women for voting rights was relatively short; Kurds have been fighting for independence for more than a century and they are still far from getting it, whilst the Vietnamese got rid of the French in about ten. So, unless you happen to think that History repeats itself, it is of little use for predicting how long a conflict will last and whether or not particular negotiations will lead to an agreement.

[danholo]

The problem is that the PLO is a corrupt regime that supports terrorism and vows the destruction of Israel despite its theatrical attempts to claim otherwise. The government of Israel is a democratically elected entity that serves the will of its people and acts accordingly. I would find the democratically elected representatives, who actually care about their electorate, more sincere and serious about peace than a corrupt government, who broke its promises, and could care less about the people it is supposed to serve. The PLO wanted rule over the Palestinian people and thus assumed responsibilty over it. It is not Israel's fault that the PA has not been responsible of what it was supposed to do to the people it ruled and to the other party for which it promised not to use violence. I don't know how Israel violated Oslo and it really doesn't matter because it was the PA who resorted to murder and one does not have to accept violence as a tool for negotiation.

[Miriam]

Originally posted by Jorge
Quotes from Danholo post #33:

Negotiations are meaningless when the other party is not sincere!

Danholo: isn’t it about time for someone to tell you about the bees and the flowers and other facts of life? The facts of life include the one that in negotiations between rivals or opponents, parties are never sincere; if they were, diplomats would be in street corners begging for bread.

If you just want negotiations because of the sake of negotiations, fine.

No I don’t; the only people that may conceivable be willing to waste their time in that way are the said diplomats. You and me, we've had a long debate on decision-making processes and emotionalized terminology on this forum (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1719) (exactly a year ago, time flies but people never change, do they?). To proceed within the same terminological system:

You are right that the concept of "faith" or "sincerity" is a useless one in diplomacy. As useless as the word I hate by now, "peace", which, IIRC, we have agreed to describe with something on the line of "an arrangement leading to a stable situation". By the same token, discussing the personal integrity of your negotiation partners makes little sense, especially in politics. Taking a closer look at their real motives, personal interests and the strategies they have employed in the past and are likely to employ in the future is vital.

As far as I can recognize, fallacy #1 is that the Palestinians you get at a negotiation table are genuine representatives of the Palestinians whose welfare you are concerned for. When I write "genuite representatives" I mean that the personal well-being of the negotiation table Palestinians is at least remotely dependent on the well-being of what is supposed to become their future grateful subjects. The way it looks now, the opposite is the case. The worse the Palestinian peasants, hired workers etc. are off, the better for the Palestinian political elite.

Fallacy #2 is that the Palestinians that have agreed to agree in future to make peace with Israel are likely to have sufficient control. Who exactly is Nusseibeh, who is Abed Rabbo? Whom, what organizations, manpower and so on do they command? If the answer is none, then what's the point? And if you prefer to negotiate with those genuinely in power, it's back to fallacy #1.

Fallacy #3 is that nominal external facilitators, such as European states are genuinely interested in stopping the conflict. I submit they are anything but, since it is uniquely useful both on the domestic and the international arenas. If the European pols were serious about it, they'd know how to do it without rubbing nearly everyone the wrong way. There is more than enough experience on the subject around here. No, they are pouring oil into fire, cannily, clouded in humanistic slogans, and purposefully. Of course, we could also start a discussion on the perspective of the US administration, but there is too much paranoia connected to the subject ;)


What comes out at the end is that Danholo is right despite the imperfect wording. Within both "peace initiatives" Israeli non-representatives (as in non-members of the power structure) are negotiating with Palestinian non-representatives, who may or may not be honorable individuals. And the only representatives you are likely to find are the ones whose political existence is enabled solely by the state of conflict.

Which brings us back to some of Sharansky's ideas (let's leave aside the PC stuff, OK?)

[Jorge]

From Miriam #37:

You are right that the concept of "faith" or "sincerity" is a useless one in diplomacy. As useless as the word I hate by now, "peace", which, IIRC, we have agreed to describe with something on the line of "an arrangement leading to a stable situation". By the same token, discussing the personal integrity of your negotiation partners makes little sense, especially in politics. Taking a closer look at their real motives, personal interests and the strategies they have employed in the past and are likely to employ in the future is vital.

If you browse through my posts you’ll see that I’m usually careful to avoid “peace agreements” or the like. Problem with “an arrangement leading to a stable situation” that it’s too long, unless we use ALSS, but then no one will know what are we talking about. About looking at their real motives, strategies, etc. … this is what Intelligence Services are paid to do, isn’t it? Results seem to be very poor in actual crises;I’d say that a sharp intuition doesn’t hurt.

As far as I can recognize, fallacy #1 is that the Palestinians you get at a negotiation table are genuine representatives of the Palestinians whose welfare you are concerned for. When I write "genuite representatives" I mean that the personal well-being of the negotiation table Palestinians is at least remotely dependent on the well-being of what is supposed to become their future grateful subjects. The way it looks now, the opposite is the case. The worse the Palestinian peasants, hired workers etc. are off, the better for the Palestinian political elite .

Why to limit it to the Palestinians? Are they outside the range of the general principles and theories of organizations? Negotiations are usually conducted by politicians whose main aim or objective is to stay in power; for that they have to appear to get the upper hand in the negotiating table so as to increase their popularity. This often results in that short term vantage points are considered more important than long term ones. Exceptions to the rule are a rare case of politicians that are called statesmen. (Begin,Sadat?).

What complicates the issue, the way I see it, is that the “well being of the population” includes as well national Pride and Prejudice, sometimes appearing more important than material conditions. Pre- or anti-negotiation statements like “We’d rather die rather than concede an inch of our Territory” are a result of this P&P; although it may appear idiotic, countless beings have been killed over the ages as a result of said slogan. A more sophisticated version of national prestige is the pronouncement often voiced by some of our Generals: “We should not negotiate until terror is entirely suppressed, otherwise it may be interpreted as Weakness of our side”

I’d say that your yardstick for “genuine representatives” is too strict; this as a result of the well-being of the population being an ambiguous term especially in periods of acute conflict between nations. Besides, since the well-being of common people is seldom improved by their country going to war it would disqualify quite a number of Leaders of Nations over the ages.

Fallacy #2 will have to wait.
GN&SD

[danholo]

Ah, Sadat, if there would only be one like him on the Arab side today, the atmosphere could be very different. Arafat is no Sadat.

[rhodescholar]

Regardless of whether one agrees with the ideas laid out by yossi beilin, the fact that this a--hole is taking it upon himself to conduct foreign diplomacy is beyond the pale, and i feel he should be arrested for treason.

I cannot imagine a US senator or the french mayor from Nice trying to neogtiate the SALT treaties with the soviet union during the cold war. For this imbecile to step FAR outside his jurisdiction like this is an outrage, and anyone who believes in the notion of democratic rule cannot tolerate this type of behavior. He knew the israeli public wont support him or his plan, so he took it upon himself to go behind the backs of all of those whose support is required for such a plan and presented it to the arab sycophants, the Europeans.

He is an abomination, and should be impeached and brought to trial.

[Jorge]

About Miriam’s Fallacy #2:

Fallacy #2 is that the Palestinians that have agreed to agree in future to make peace with Israel are likely to have sufficient control. Who exactly is Nusseibeh, who is Abed Rabbo? Whom, what organizations, manpower and so on do they command? If the answer is none, then what's the point? And if you prefer to negotiate with those genuinely in power, it's back to fallacy #1.

I don’t think this is really a Fallacy. As far as I can recollect, no one is pretending that the Palestinian counterparts of the said initiatives count with overwhelming support of the public opinion. The same may be said of the Israeli counterparts of the initiatives purporting to reach “an agreement leading to a stable situation”, that is Mr. Ayalon and Mr. Beilin and others.

As to your question “what’s the point?”, let us take for a moment the wide view.
The present conflict has reached a point where the majority of both populations hate each other , it’s not just animosity, it’s deep hatred. We have come to this low point thanks to the bloody attacks of Hamas, Jihad and other murderous factions and thanks to the clumsy policies of retaliation of the present Israeli government. To get out from this state of affairs we need courageous political initiatives from the leaderships of both countries. We need also and this may be as important, to re-establish a dialogue between both populations at every possible level.

The dialogue may be between “outstanding public figures”, “minor political figures” or between ordinary mothers and ordinary mothers in the other side. When Mr. Ayalon and Prof. Nusseibeh write a declaration of principles to which nearly 200.000 ordinary people on both sides subscribe, they are in effect saying: we agree on this and that, now we can sit and really talk. When a few kibbutzniks from R. Haviva get together with a few Palestinians in Ramalah and create a joint radio station to broadcast in Hebrew and Arabic, they are also creating a channel for the dialogue. When school-children from both sides meet and play together they are also part of that dialogue. When the signatories of the Geneva thing send the agreement to every Israeli or Palestinian home, they are in effect saying to their populations: A group of us has agreed on these clauses, read the document, judge by yourself and consider whether you can live with it; if so, let’s sit and talk. That, I think, in broad lines, is the point of it.