Who Are The "palestinians" ?????? [Archive]

L@mplighterM

03-19-2002, 04:35 PM

Palestinians are guaranteed Jordanian citizenship but Iâ€™ll bet my bottom dollar that Jordan is not to eager to have them return home.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/jordan.html
Palestinians are by law guaranteed the RIGHT OF RETURN to Jordan, where they are entitled to citizenship, "unless they are Jews."

If the Palestinians were to return to Jordan it would surely destabilize that country. It is certainly not in Jordanâ€™s interest to have them return claiming citizenship.

Area Population Percentage of total world Palestinian population
Jordan 2,272,000 30.7%
West Bank 1,572,000 21.3%
SOURCE: Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics for Palestinians in WB/Gaza mid 1996

The population of Jodan was 5,153,378 (July 2001 est.)

watcher

03-19-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by McSceptic
Shalom bakuda!

The kingdom of Israel ceased to be a political reality in approx. 700 BC.

The question you should be asking is who are these European incomers and what is their claim?

The british seen they had no claim as well as much of the general european region so they left Israel so all that remains is "palestine" who still would not admit they have no claim whatsoever in Israel!

Your assumption that Israel ceased to become a political reality in 700 BC is quite incorrect for in fact when Israel was under harsh greek subjugation when turning to rome for aid they were recognized and considered friends of rome. Israel ceased to become a political reality after Masada post 70 AD when rome decided to remove much of Israel from Israel then renaming the land of Israel "palestine" placing foreigners in the land who call themselves "palestinians" who try to squat Israel to this day.

bakuda

03-19-2002, 09:40 PM

L@mplighterM, pardon me for suggesting that anyone that isn't jewish on this forum is an arab. I assumed. I understand there are christians and others as well who are involved in this forum.

The reason i ask 'who are the palestinians' is because i have heard some interesting claims, such as that jews are most akin genetically to the palestinians. I am not sure of the credibility of the research and of the statement as it could have been politically motivated. One also has to also keep in mind genetics is not a sophisticated science yet and is open to much interepretation of data.
Another claim i have heard, and one already expressed on this post, is that Jordan controles what is really most of 'Palestine'. Of course, Jordan would collaps (like Israel would) if palestinian refugese would start settling the country. This point has been already brought up and is a very good one, and i felt like restating it.

McSceptic

03-20-2002, 03:15 AM

I think the only British interest in Palestine following WWI (apart from peace, love and universal brotherhood) was to ensure that access through the Suez canal was kept open.

Originally, the support for the Arab nationalist awakening during WWI was to put pressure on the Turks and force the Germans to divert troops and resources to support the Ottomans. Just geopolitics as usual.

After the Kingdom of Israel went down (10 tribes), all that was left was the Kingdom of Judah (hence Jews, Jewish etc.). The idea of Israel had ceased to be a reality but the term lived on I suppose as a kind of ideal, a bit like the brotherhood of man - something to be aimed for but unlikely ever to be seen.

The European Jews setting up a homestate would need a name for it, and Israel is a lot catchier than Jewish Autnomous Zone. It also helps to claim some prior history for the state, although this is obviously more imaginary than real. Like Athens, Georgia, or similar.

As to who the Palestinans are, I guess it is a whole lot simpler. They're the people who were living there for before the state of Israel was set up.

Flame

03-20-2002, 05:47 AM

McSceptic.... the people living in the region, in little huts, not thriving cities where people actually owned individual properties, were ARABS. Arabsl living in palestine among Jews living in palestine. You do remember that the whole of palestine was made into two states? The Jews got 20% (Israel) and the arabs got 80% (Trans Jordan. 20 years later arafat created the PLO and suddenly his mythical people, the palestinians were born. The entire middle east was one vast region that when Israel was born, several arab nations were born along with it. Arabs do not have any one "national" identity before 50 years ago. They have always been tribes, not nations.

To be a palestinian would imply a seperate and national, and cultural identity, distinct from other arabs. Palestine was not a nation. There were Jews, Christians, and muslims living in Palestine.

There was an agreed to population exchange.... which all the arab nations changed their mind to, less than 24 hours after the papers were signed by all members of the League of Nations. A 20 year process of meetings and argeements. This propaganda that Jews stole the land is beyond absurd when in fact Jews had little to do with the creation process. Even the British disallowed Jews to immigrate while this process was being hammered out during the War.

This entire palestinian "crisis" is manufactured by the arab nations. This is how they found a way to continue their agenda to destroy Israel. Today's propaganda says that over a million people were displaced when all records show there were barely 50,000 arabs in the region at the time.

ibrodsky

03-20-2002, 06:47 AM

The question -- who are the Palestinians? -- is a good one.

I have pointed out many times and in several different forums that prior to 1967 the "Palestinians" did not demand their own state. They seemed completely unaware of themselves as a nation. I have asked Palestinians about this and some have flatly stated that Palestinians think of themselves mainly as Arabs, so they don't mind living under foreign rule -- as long as it is Arab.

Yasir Arafat claims to be a Palestinian, but there is documented evidence that he was born in Cairo and not Jerusalem as he claims.

Unfortunately, I tend to think that the Palestinians are to militant Islam simply that group of people chosen to be martyrs in the war against Western Civilization.

Not all Palestinians are Islamists, but a large percentage are.

McSceptic

03-20-2002, 07:02 AM

Watcher, when the leaders of the Jewish people were in touch with Rome, they were the rulers of petty kingdoms like Judea, Samaria and Chalcis. Israel had long gone as a reality and what was left were small, mixed units. Herod himself, the builder of the second temple, was an Arab by descent. Or as I understand Orthodox Rabbis would say: an Arab. (You do know that rabbinical Judaism (the religion modern Jews follow) was largely developed outside of â€œPalestine/Israelâ€, in Alexandria and Baghdad?).

When Jesus was crucified, the Romans mockingly called him Rex Iudem, king of the Jews, not king of Israel/Israelis/Israelites etc.

As for the Palestinans, every people is self-invented. No nation springs fully formed from the ground In their case they almost seem to be by default everyone in the neighbourhood who wasnâ€™t happy about the partition (which of course theyâ€™re not alone in. The Israelis are strangely reluctant to share Jerusalem, as required by the partition plan. Spoils of war?)

NewsGuy

03-20-2002, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by McSceptic
As to who the Palestinans are, I guess it is a whole lot simpler. They're the people who were living there for before the state of Israel was set up.

To be more exact, they are the Muslim part of the overall population that was there before the state of Israel was officially declared.

In many areas that are now Israel, the Muslim part of the population was a mere minority, and in other parts a majority.

ibrodsky

03-20-2002, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by McSceptic
As for the Palestinans, every people is self-invented. No nation springs fully formed from the ground In their case they almost seem to be by default everyone in the neighbourhood who wasnâ€™t happy about the partition (which of course theyâ€™re not alone in. The Israelis are strangely reluctant to share Jerusalem, as required by the partition plan. Spoils of war?)

The question of whether there is a Palestinian nation doesn't hinge on whether that nation was "self-invented." What matters is whether Palestinians are genuinely motivated by national aspirations.

Do they view themselves as a distinct group of people that needs its own government?

I believe the answer is "no." It would be more accurate to say they feel that the establishment of Israel was an affront to the Arab world, and they just happen to be the Arabs who were most directly affected.

The correct answer to the question "Who are the Palestinians?" is: the Jews. Palestine was Rome's Jewish colony. The fact that a group pf Arabs decided to call themselves "Palestinians" simply underscores the fact that there was never a distinct Arab nation living in "Palestine." They could not come up with another name because they had never thought of themselves as a separate nation before.

You see, Arab endorsement of "Palestinian nationalism" is purely a tactical move. They know that the West recognizes national liberation movements as legitimate. Therefore, they decided to wrap their cause -- destroying Israel -- in national liberation terms.

raven

03-20-2002, 07:35 AM

Bakuda: If you want to know just who the so called Palistinians are read "From Time Immemorial" by J. Peters.

This is an accurate history of a people and their false claims. This book was written by a woman who, until research actual FACTS of the situation, was a full and complete supportor and lobbyist of the "Palistinian" cause.

raven

03-20-2002, 07:39 AM

On the same subject of WHO ARE THE PALISTIANS, you can also read Joseph Farah --Oct. 2000, scroll back in his archives, at www.worldnetdaily.com or you can connect to him on Drudge Report 2002. This is an Arab-American who says it like it is and says it like most Arabs KNOW it really is.

Flame

03-20-2002, 07:40 AM

The Romans spoke English? That's interesting. Plus... as far as I'm concerned... since jesus is a mythological figure... no words were ever spoken other than what the NT writers came up with. And they too did not write in English.

cerulean

03-20-2002, 07:44 AM

Here's a link to Time Immemorial:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0963624202

Slightly tangential, one strange thing I've seen is the Palestinian Authority issuing stamps that feature the idol Baal. Presumably the "Palestinians" are trying to identify themselves with the groups in the Bible that worshipped Baal (and incidentally sacrificed their children to him) and fought Israel. Islamic rulings are even against this practice of featuring an idol on the stamps.

bakuda

03-20-2002, 11:28 AM

thank you both for the info, raven and cerulian. I appreciate it. How come I was not aware of this view? And why isn't this a point being expressed in the media as part of the whole debate? Why do I get the feeling that the Palestinians are getting away with something?

"The Israelis are strangely reluctant to share Jerusalem, as required by the partition plan. Spoils of war?" -- sceptic.

To this I say, yes, 1/2 of Jerusalem is a spoil of war... one in which we were on the DEFENISIVE!!! What, the arabs attack, lose, and now are asking for what they have lost??? That my friend is the definition of impunity.

NewsGuy

03-20-2002, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by cerulean
Slightly tangential, one strange thing I've seen is the Palestinian Authority issuing stamps that feature the idol Baal.

More fitting for a Palestinian stamp would be would be this image, which portrays the higest Palestinian national aspiration, i.e., the mass murder and genocide of Jews:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=2751#post2751

NewsGuy

03-20-2002, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

The correct answer to the question "Who are the Palestinians?" is: the Jews. Palestine was Rome's Jewish colony. The fact that a group pf Arabs decided to call themselves "Palestinians" simply underscores the fact that there was never a distinct Arab nation living in "Palestine." They could not come up with another name because they had never thought of themselves as a separate nation before.

You see, Arab endorsement of "Palestinian nationalism" is purely a tactical move. They know that the West recognizes national liberation movements as legitimate. Therefore, they decided to wrap their cause -- destroying Israel -- in national liberation terms.

Very insightful and 100% true, indeed.

But the West is also at fault here. it is bending over backwards to swallow the Arab lies and deception because, after all, the only ones who stand to lose by turning the Arab sham into reality are the Jews.

McSceptic

03-20-2002, 01:28 PM

Interesting stuff.

Rex Iudem is Latin, meaning king of the Jews in English. I admit I never got very high marks in Latin, and it is from memory.

I think Jesus has a better shot at being an historical figure than a lot of other characters. Certainly a stronger claim that figures such as Solomon, for whom no evidence has ever been uncovered, and whose chronology does not stack up against the established chronologies for the Egyptian dynasties for example.

And speaking of Baal, he had a strong following among all the Semitic peoples, including the Israelites. The Palestinans may just be more comfortable with that aspect of a shared Semitic past.

It's true that having a nation state is an idea that has come late to the Palestinians, but then that's true of the Jews. And as with the Jews it has taken external forces to force that kind of idea up the agenda (I think in the case of Herzl, it was the Dreyfuss trial inFrance that sparked his nationalism). It seems to be that the Semitic peoples have been relatively indifferent as to who was governing them for most of their history, but both now seem to have worken up with a vengance!

raven

03-20-2002, 01:37 PM

C and Newsguy: Thanks for supplying the links.

Let me give a short intro. to the new name for the so called Palistinians. Since more and more people have discovered that there is NO SUCH THING as a real Palistinian,no culture, nothing discovered in the ground, no separate language etc., they have now started to call themselves "Cannonites". If they use this designation ...it is such a squishy designation that at this time no one can say that they are or are NOT somewhat related to the people called "Cannonites"- that were in the area thousands of years ago.

Course there are NO Cannonites left as there are NO Midionites or Edomites or other ites...There is just Jews left from that old old culture. Got em again. Where Baal comes in: (cant believe they are doing that) is that Baal...is the G=d of the Cannonites. So I guess to be authentic Cannonites, they have to include Baal. This is rediculous. BUT watch the world buy this new PR stunt of the Arabs.

ibrodsky

03-20-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by McSceptic
It's true that having a nation state is an idea that has come late to the Palestinians, but then that's true of the Jews. And as with the Jews it has taken external forces to force that kind of idea up the agenda (I think in the case of Herzl, it was the Dreyfuss trial inFrance that sparked his nationalism). It seems to be that the Semitic peoples have been relatively indifferent as to who was governing them for most of their history, but both now seem to have worken up with a vengance!

Huh? There was an ancient Israel and Jews have maintained a distinct religion, culture, and language for thousands of years.

Palestinians never had their own state, and never even talked of one until post-1967. And they don't have their own culture, language, or religion.

Palestinian nationalism isn't just a "late idea," it is a ruse.

raven

03-20-2002, 01:52 PM

IBrod: You bet it is a ruse. It didnt look good or fair to the world for a huge group of people, a billion and a half strong, to be attacking Jews so soon after the Soah. So what did they do about THAT PR disaster in the making? They invented a phony parallel minority Arab group, wa--laaa..the so called small put upon MINORITY Arab group, the Palistinians. Everyone knew it was phoney baloney to accomplish the cutting down and cutting apart of Israel. Everyone knows what an at peace, big enough Israel could accomplish-- and they meant to cut it off at the beginning. They didnt exactly accomplish that goal, but you see they are persistant.

Flame

03-20-2002, 02:28 PM

What seems very odd to me is how for years Christians have been running scared about Satan being on the loose.... (the big boogie man).... but when you look at what islam is up to, sure looks like the Satanic influences they've talking about.... And even now with it glaring them straight in the eye.. it just goes over their heads.... let's make peace, let's talk, let's understand them, let's not make them mad.... after all the bible doesnt say the boogie man is islamic. (Except I think it might refere to that in Revelations)

Those people (nations of the world over the past 2000 years) have been so laser-focused on getting the Jews, that they never counted on this little islamic wrinkle.... and it's still get the Jews with them... it's all the Jews fault.... never their paranoid hate is the problem.... and let's say.... worse case scenaro.... islam destroys Israel and the US.... do you really think islam will stop their crusade? I think it's obvious.... every other nation is in line for destruction until the entire globe belongs to islam... not with converts in their fold... but with corpses.

Flame

03-20-2002, 06:13 PM

Oh yes...P.S.... these so called Palestinains... many are hired thugs and come all parrs of the arab world. Thousands of the well to-do P's left the region years ago. I have no idea how many terror groups are at this, but all, which the media refere to them as... fall under the umbrella... "palestinian" good catch-all buzzword.

As for refugees returning... since when do 2 and 3 generations later classify as refugee?

Thought I'd post these 2 letters I found at another site.
----------------
What motivates suicide bombers?

Jim C. Chicago IL USA (20 Mar 2002)

I asked a friend of mine who lived in Beirut about the likelihood of
upcoming peace. Here was his reply, which I found newsworthy:

The suicide bombers are motivated by money. Their families received free
rent, free food, and free health care. He said they are funded by Iraq.

One more reason to establish clear borders. Technology is very good at
certain things. Clear borders is one of them. But this business of porous
borders with thousands of Palestinians crossing into Israel daily to "WORK"
makes it impossible to guarantee safety.
--------------
((((( Maybe someone should notify this to CNN's Lou Dobbs who has stated Israel has outlived her purpose,as he is a big promoter of having the UN take over Israel. )))))))

The UN: A Den of Vipers

Solomon P. (19 Mar 2002)

When international criminals form a governing body it is called a Mafia, or
"organized crime sindicate".

When International tyrants form a governing body it is called "The United
nations"

Let's face it, 99% of all members of the United Nations are
communist-dictatorships, Islamic fanatics and other forms of governments
which are as barbaric and savage. Only a dozen states are democracies
which have civilized laws and enlightened systems of justice. Israel, having
one of the most advanced and enlightened Supreme Court, MUST withdraw
from the UN, denie its autority and Israel must call for the formation of a
"Federation of Democratic States" which should have as its number one
rule-the unconditional protection of other member states.

The UN has become outdated and wastes billions of dollars while it does
nothing but produce stupid declarations/resolutions which grant more
power to the comunists and tyrant-nations of the world. Let's start being a
LIGHT to the nations, shall we

L@mplighterM

03-20-2002, 08:24 PM

The UN has become a body that is biased and helps Arabs perpetuate their bogus causes.

The Secretary General of the UN is the worlds biggest racist and for that he gets the peace prize.

I'm gettin old and out of touch with reality.

bakuda

03-22-2002, 03:21 AM

Flame, thanks for your last post. I've never heard of a suggestion such as creating a body of Democratic nations before to take the place of the present UN. It's a fantastic idea. I'm 100% for making this new league and i'm sure if others heard about the idea they would agree as well. I however don't believe in dismantling the old UN. The UN should probably keep on crankin', only that the new league should be made IN ADDITION for the new democratic members that would qualify. Why do I say this??? Because I don't think it would be good to divide the world into bi-polar factions and thereby creating a rift between Democratic countries and none democratic ones, possibly spurring on another Cold-War type situation. You want to keep the present UN system going so that the world continues moving forward and you don't want to leave it because you still want to have contact with the none-democratic countries for diplomacy, cooperation and communication.

ibrodsky

03-22-2002, 03:49 AM

I think the League of DemocraticCountries is a great idea. But it won't go anywhere unless several key countries pull out of the UN and take their dues money with them.

There is nothing the Islamists would like better than to see Israel pull out of the UN. I read that in the past there was one Arab diplomat who, when addressing the UN, always said it was an honor to address the UN, all xxx-1 members. So you see, the Islamists already consider Israel not to be a member of their UN.

The problem is lack of vision in the West. Just yesterday, a group of Western leaders issued a declaration that poverty causes terrorism. Brilliant! Now we are told by our own leaders that poverty rather than evil causes terrorism. This means the solution is not killing terrorists, but paying off the societies that breed them.

Flame

03-22-2002, 06:40 AM

If you run a search on "world tax" there is a movement afoot to tax american citizens to help the poor of the world.... as if that money wouldn't just end up lining the pockets of the dictators like they do now.

Araftat has been given billions for his cause... where's the hospitals, the roads, the infrastructure? He has his wife and child living in luxury in Paris, has stockpiled huge amounts of weapons, has an "army and police force"

As for poverty equals terrorism... all of the suicide bombers were well educated and well off. Another rouse is upon us. IF this was true why isn't Mexico and India overwhelmed with terrorists.... the truth is.... ISLAM produces terrorism... NOT poverty.

bakuda

03-22-2002, 06:51 AM

I don't think islam as a whole promotes terrorism. I mean, Turkey is islamic (secular i might add) and it is a prospering nation. I think it is just how you interpret the religion.

On helping the poor of other nations... I have no qualms about giving the poor money from taxes. As long as the taxes are proportianal to your income level. BUT..... serious measures would have to be taken to change the system in which this business is carried out. Money cannot just be pumped blindly into a country. no. Representatives of the countries who donate would have to oversee the distribution of the money and how it is used and in fact, have some say in how it will be spent. There would have to be a heavy checks and balances system that moniters the moniters and so on. Even though this itself would cost a deal, it would in the end save more money for the right use of it.

NewsGuy

03-22-2002, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I think the League of DemocraticCountries is a great idea. But it won't go anywhere unless several key countries pull out of the UN and take their dues money with them.

Agreed. Until a new organization is empowered and gains some legitimacy, there is little point in Israel sitting all alone is another organization, especially being still subject to UN sanctions.

Now we are told by our own leaders that poverty rather than evil causes terrorism. This means the solution is not killing terrorists, but paying off the societies that breed them.

The West is plain and simple too terrified to fight terrorism properly, afraid not only of sustaining casualties when the Islamists slaughter Westerners, but also afraid that the flow of oil from the ME would be interrupted.

The end-result is that the West is terrorized anyway, with cumbersome but futile security measures, and huge budgets diverted to useless secutiry agencies, and still Islamic terrorism goes on all over the world.

L@mplighterM

03-22-2002, 09:55 AM

Whoâ€™s going to be the members of this democratic league? France, Spain, Denmark, etc. how many of the EU countries would be members? The Arabs have those countries on a string. The (prime minister? or? I forgot his name) of Czechoslovakia made a statement supporting Israel and the EU came down on him.

Whoâ€™s going to be the members of the league of democratic countries? Israel and ?

Is giving money to developing countries a good idea? Is this a way to buy love and peace?

The west has been giving billions of dollars to developing countries and in the end they hate the US. Pakistan is a prime example I would venture to say most of the people there believe that the Jews bombed the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon. I donâ€™t think anyone can comprehend how much hate thereâ€™s in that country towards the US and Israel.

France, Denmark and Norway is a loved by Islamic Fundamentalists and those countries donâ€™t hand out as much money and food as the US.

You cant buy love !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wouldnâ€™t give 1 cent in aid unless the countries that received the aid outlawed Islamic Fundamentalism. Thereâ€™s no way that I would want my tax dollars flowing into countries hell bent on destroying my blood.