Why sooner or later, Palestine must be established

[bakuda]

It is no longer a question of whether Palestinians deserve a country of their own or not. The World already has decided this. And it is in fact in Israel's best interest to give Palestinians the west bank and the Gaza strip. You may ask how can that be?? Once Palestine is created, more attacks on Israel are inevitable... I don't believe many Palestinians want just their part, they want all of the land. There will always be extremists on the palestinian side who will never accept Israel. But, once Israel gives them their country, it will be in the interest of the Palestinian authority to TRULY try to crack down on these militant groups, since, after all they will not risk Israel's defensive occupation measures once they are given full autonomy. After time, trading relations between the two sides will discourage military action as both will stand to lose more than gain. For Israel however, the benefits of giving the Palestinians the Gaza strip and West Bank asap will not only show Israel's interest in peace and show the world it's good will. By doing this now, Israel also will avoid a major major problem! Palestinians are increasingly growing in numbers.... their population will in the near future surpass the jewish population in ISRAEL!

[ibrodsky]

There is one potential flaw in your analysis. If what most Palestinians want is their own state on the West Bank and in Gaza, then giving them such a state will provide incentive for them to clamp down on terrorists. Plus, it will show the world that Israel, at least, is sincerely interested in peace.

However, isn't this precisely the direction Israel has been trying to push things all along?

Now let's assume the real goal of most Palestinian groups is to destroy Israel. Then a state of their own simply creates an opportunity to import arms, train more fighters, and meanwhile continue to stage terrorist attacks against Israel -- with (of course) the Palestinian gov't insisting it condemns such attacks and is doing everything it can to stop them.

Plus, Israel can give the Palestinians a state but what if they reject it? The Palestinian side insists that any peace deal must include a state with its capital in Jerusalem and the return of hundreds of thousands of "refugees" to within Israel proper. Clearly, this is part of a general strategy of trying to destabilize Israel from within.

Surely you are aware that there has been a long running debate in the Arab world: should they simply fight straight through to victory (destroy Israel) or should they employ a two-stage strategy (create a state and then use it as a staging ground to destroy Israel).

Given the anti-semitism spewing from Arab capitals, that Yasir Arafat is a life-long terrorist, and that the PA rejected a deal that proved Israel is willing to compromise, I think it is a bit naive to think that a Palestinian state will solve anything.

However, if creating such a state would expose once and for all the real intentions of the Palestinians and their Arab supporters, and if the US and Israel are likely to draw the right conclusions from what follows, then I would say go for it.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by bakuda
I don't believe many Palestinians want just their part, they want all of the land. There will always be extremists on the palestinian side who will never accept Israel.

This ABSOLUTELY TRUE! Even if they claimed other than that these days.

And believe me, with your definition of "extremists", 90% of the Palestinians are extremist!

[bakuda]

i realize i sounded naive. But you hit the mark exactly on the nose when you said that maybe a strategy of giving palestine autonomy would be to see if palestinians are really serious about peace and their 'one and only' goal of having a Palestinian state and leaving Israel alone once they have it. If however, on obtaining Palestine the palestinians further harrass Israel at or in it's borders whether be it terrorism or full out war, Israel should and would occupy Palestine once more... again, in self defence. So, Israel should proceed with negociating with the Palestinians on the matter of Palestine. But, Jerusalem and refugees should not be an issue. Which other country in the world shares Capitols????? NONE... because it wouldn't work. And refugees in israel would be disastrous to the economy as everyone well knows.

But like I said you know, as a gesture of good will, Israel should push on with negociations whether Arafat stops the attacks or not.... if during negociations terrorism doesn't stop, it would be a sacrifice that would happen anyway even without negociations. At least with negociations, there is a hope that an end to conflict will come sooner. Also, there is a chance Palestinians in fact only care about aquiring Palestine and would stop killing once they achieved this one goal. In such a manner would the world see our sincerity in making peace. HOWEVER.... ALL terrorist actions against Israel.... ALL.... would have to stop once Palestine is a nation. ALL. No exceptions and if there are any, Palestine is finished. Forever. Once one established nation attacks another, the one being attacked has the right to defend itself and if chance and logic permit, defeat the agressor in annexing land won in war... especially a defensive one. Palestine once a nation, will have responsibilities like all other nations in the world.

[cerulean]

Does anyone have any idea why the suicide bomber today (from Jenin) decided to take out a bus that was filled mostly with Israeli Arabs who are day laborers?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by bakuda

HOWEVER.... ALL terrorist actions against Israel.... ALL.... would have to stop once Palestine is a nation. ALL. No exceptions and if there are any, Palestine is finished. Forever.

This is why I think Arafat would rather talk about the struggle for a Palestinian state than actually get one.

I was at a speech the other day by Malcomb Hoenlein. He said the last thing Arafat wants is to be judged in terms of how well his administration does at garbage pickup and other mundane services.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I was at a speech the other day by Malcomb Hoenlein. He said the last thing Arafat wants is to be judged in terms of how well his administration does at garbage pickup and other mundane services.

That's also the current line of thinking of the Israeli intelligence community.

[L@mplighterM]

Does anyone have any idea why the suicide bomber today (from Jenin) decided to take out a bus that was filled mostly with Israeli Arabs who are day laborers?

Terrorists make statements with their actions.

Would you like to take the next bus?

Count me out I've grown used to living.

[Jorge]

I fail to see any viable outcome of the present crisis other than the establishment of a Palestinian state. The other alternatives I have heard of are untenable:
1) To annex the territories and include the palestinians as
residents without voting rights. 2) To persuade Jordan to annex the territories. 3) To "persuade" the palestinians to go to live elsewhere.
Surely any open minded reasoning about these alternatives leads to the conclusion that a Palestinian state
is the best alternative for israeli interests.
To think that the creation of such a state will put an inmediate end to the conflict, stop terrorism and that we we'll
live happily thereafter is too optimistic a view, but at the
very least will be a major step in the right direction.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Jorge
I fail to see any viable outcome of the present crisis other than the establishment of a Palestinian state.
That is the public position of Ariel Sharon, as well.

Just that the Palestinian state will have to be a product of peaceful negotiations that cannot take place under fire from ther Palestinian suicide bombers.

If you recall, Sharon only asked for 7 days of quiet before negotiations would start, that would ultimately result in the creation of an independent Palestinian state. But 7 days without the mass murder of innocent Jews, was apparently far too much to ask from the Palestinians.

That was the backdrop for this current crisis.

Also, I would again say that the Palestinians have already been operating factories for missiles and bombs and suicide belts in their current disputed areas, imagine the magnitude of the Palestinian terror machine if is there was an independent Palestinain state.

[ibrodsky]

Gee, there haven't been any suicide terror attacks on Israel in the last week.

I wonder why that is.

This proves that smashing the terrorist infrastructure, rounding up suspects, and wiping out those who shoot at the IDF is the morally right thing to do. Perhaps >100 Israeli civilians' lives have been saved by the current IDF operations.

Good job, IDF!

[L@mplighterM]

Gee, there haven't been any suicide terror attacks on Israel in the last week.

You're not dealing with people that are completely nuts the bastards have it down to a T. The attacks have been stopped by higher ups (like Arafat) and it helps to foster the ani Israli sentiment trat's evident worldwide. If the attacks were continuing it would give Israel greater (in the eyes of the world)support for it's actions.

No atacks=no justification

[jersho]

With all due respect, I have been thinking that Israel should give back all of the land that they purchased or won during the 67' war
to the "Palaistinians" and Arabs on the same day that the US government give back all of the land that they purchased or won fron the "American Indians", native americans, and Spain gives back all of the land that they conqured around the world, and England gives back all of the land that they conquored around the world, etc. :p

[Flame]

Hey Jersho, I'd like to add to the list... all the villages taken from Jews thoughout Europe during nazi germany and all the Jewish villages stolen by Islamic forces thoughout the ME. INCLUDING Medina!

Fair is fair.

[jersho]

Originally posted by Flame
Hey Jersho, I'd like to add to the list... all the villages taken from Jews thoughout Europe during nazi germany and all the Jewish villages stolen by Islamic forces thoughout the ME.

Fair is fair.

agreed

[Jorge]

Reply to NewsGuy(04-06)

I tend to disagree with you regarding the linkage between the existence or not of a Palestinian State and the cessation of all terrorists attacks. Before the creation of the Palestinian Authority,
when israeli armed forces had full control of the territories, terrorist actions were quite frequent as you may recall. While the PA functioned the attacks continued,with ups and downs; they
reached a climax last month, when the PA was nearly blotted out.
This tends to support the view that terrorism continues to show its ugly face no matter who rules the place. I think they are likely to continue in the coming years whether there exists or not a
Palestinian State. The great majority of attacks against israeli
civilians are carried out by fanatic groups(Hamas, Jihad,etc) that
couldn't care less about such an State; any step towards a peaceful solution of the coflict is contrary to their interests and,
as I said before, the fullfilment of the right of self-determination
of the palestinians is a major step towards a solution. It might
also decrease the magnitude or frequency of the attacks by
decreasing anger and frustration in common people and thus
undermining the popular support of terrorist groups.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Jorge
Before the creation of the Palestinian Authority,
when israeli armed forces had full control of the territories, terrorist actions were quite frequent as you may recall

On the contrary! It only got worse:

http://www.iris.org.il/terrchrt.htm
http://www.iris.org.il/terrcht2.htm

If you ask my opinion, indeed the (nevertheless) high frequency can be attributed by not responding strongly enough militarily in the first Intifada in the 80's. An Israel, cowered into a wimper by the post-Lebanon Peace of Galilee war's left leaning swing, already let terrorists get away with murder then, as both General's Dan Shomron and then General Ehud Barak did little to resolve the problems.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Jorge
This tends to support the view that terrorism continues to show its ugly face no matter who rules the place. I think they are likely to continue in the coming years whether there exists or not a Palestinian State.
In all likelihood, there will emerge a Palestinian state, and in all likelihood there will still be terrorism flowing out of it to Israel and to the world.

As I wrote previously, if the Palestinians already managed to operate missile and bomb factories, and almost smuggled in 50 tons of heavy weapons from Iran while not even a fully independent state, then it might be much worse when they have more control over their borders.

If you take these two facts, i.e., that there will emerge a Palestinian state and that the state of Palestine will be a terrorist one, then the only alternative is to reduce the terrorism through deterrence.

These days, we are seeing some of the best deterrence against Palestinian terrorism, with the near collapse of Arafat's regime and with much of the Palestinian territories in a state of devastation as a result of the terrorism against Israel.

Maybe this lesson is a good one for the Palestinians to take to heart when contemplating future terrorist activities in their own state.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Maybe this lesson is a good one for the Palestinians to take to heart when contemplating future terrorist activities in their own state.

It should be a lesson for Israel not to allow anything like a Palestinian state to ever exist again within Judea and Samaria. Unfortunately, we'll be the ones not to learn a lesson.

[L@mplighterM]

Maybe this lesson is a good one for the Palestinians to take to heart when contemplating future terrorist activities in their own state.

Didn't know they had one.

[muslim4israel2]

Both Palestine and Israel deserve to exist. Seeing inncent kids die is the worst thing in the world.

Both sides are unreasonable, and perhaps Israel/PA area should become a UN mandate again-then the sane ppl on this planet can create 2 half decent places.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Both Palestine and Israel deserve to exist. Seeing inncent kids die is the worst thing in the world.

Yes, Jordan is is 70% Palestinian and rising.

Both sides are unreasonable, and perhaps Israel/PA area should become a UN mandate again-then the sane ppl on this planet can create 2 half decent places. [/B]

There's nothing insane about Israel and we refuse to have ourselves voluntarily committed to the UN looney bin.

[muslim4israel2]

I heard Israel sponsored a horse in the national and Dubai cup-it was called "Its the safest".

Get the point?

UN mandate!

[L@mplighterM]

I come in peace I’m not political and I’m not biased. LOOOOOOOOOOOL

Worst BS I’ve read today Muslim4Islam.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
I heard Israel sponsored a horse in the national and Dubai cup-it was called "Its the safest".

Get the point?

As in "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?"

[quote[UN mandate![/quote]

UN? You mean the guys with the binoculars who are too impotent to do anything about Hizballahs unilateral aggressions on Israel's northern border?

UN Mandate? You mean the one that declared Israel a state back in 1948 and is still unrecognized by the Arabs, so muh so that they even have to make us offers still in order to recognize Israel?

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem


It should be a lesson for Israel not to allow anything like a Palestinian state to ever exist again within Judea and Samaria. Unfortunately, we'll be the ones not to learn a lesson.

In a note posted 04-06 I listed several of the alternatives
to a Palestinian State. Do you think any of those will be a better one?

[Jorge]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


These days, we are seeing some of the best deterrence against Palestinian terrorism, with the near collapse of Arafat's regime and with much of the Palestinian territories in a state of devastation as a result of the terrorism against Israel.

Maybe this lesson is a good one for the Palestinians to take to heart when contemplating future terrorist activities in their own state.

The idea of deterrence. as I understand it, is to make the opposite side aware that if it dares to attack you the price to pay will be so high that it's not worthwhile for the to carry on the attack. I fail to see how deterrence applies to suicide bombers which in any case are willing to pay with their lives and that don't care at all if their house will be blown out. In this case the classical concept of deterrence is clearly irrelevant.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Jorge
I fail to see how deterrence applies to suicide bombers which in any case are willing to pay with their lives and that don't care at all if their house will be blown out. In this case the classical concept of deterrence is clearly irrelevant.
No, deterrence is actually most relevant here.

You are correct to say that the suicide bombers care nothing for their own lives, but they do in fact care VERY much about their families and their friends, and their villages and their mosques. All these can be used a pressure points to create a deterrence that could save the lives of their future potential victims.

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem


It should be a lesson for Israel not to allow anything like a Palestinian state to ever exist again within Judea and Samaria. Unfortunately, we'll be the ones not to learn a lesson.

In a note posted 04-06 I listed several of the alternatives
to a Palestinian State. Do you think any of those will be a better one?

[Jorge]

Reply to NewsGuy 04-14

I think we both got into deep water here. Are suicide bombers normal( and hence caring) persons or aren't they?
Right now I don't have at hand any hard evidence to support my view
and I suppose neither have you. I'll try to dig for some but still
I don't concede the point.
Now, regarding deterrence directed towards the soiety at large. Let's take for instance the whole refugee camp whre the
terrorist lives. The israeli army may have left the place, to use yor words, " in such a state of devastation" that no one will ever think again of becoming a terrorist or supporting them. This in my opinion is untenable. What would be your reaction (or that of any of us) upon seeing your home town devastated by an invading army? To offer the other cheek? To promise to be a good boy from now on? Come on, the natural reaction in most human beings is to be filled with hate and a compulsion for revenge.
So the most likely result of the tragic blunder called Wall
and Shield is that things will be like in the beggining but for a number of young israeli soldiers dead or maimed, an even larger
number of dead palestinians and the whole population hating the
israelis even more than before. So much for deterrence...

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Jorge
In a note posted 04-06 I listed several of the alternatives
to a Palestinian State. Do you think any of those will be a better one?

Let's see:

1) To annex the territories and include the palestinians as
residents without voting rights.

Nope. If they're to be citizens, they must have voting rights.

2) To persuade Jordan to annex the territories.

Jordan is not a lunatic country (yet).

3) To "persuade" the palestinians to go to live elsewhere.

The answer will obviously be no.

Surely any open minded reasoning about these alternatives leads to the conclusion that a Palestinian state
is the best alternative for israeli interests.

This has proven false over the last 8 years. It's bad enough allowing the creation of a terrorist entity (which is all that the Oslo Agreements called for). Now, with that proving a major blunder, you want to create a terrorist state?

Terrorism will increase a hundred fold, as independent states can import in anything they want by land and by air.

To think that the creation of such a state will put an inmediate end to the conflict, stop terrorism and that we we'll
live happily thereafter is too optimistic a view, but at the
very least will be a major step in the right direction.

Why? Because it will leapfrog the Arabs steps ahead in their ongoing desire and ambition to detroy and eliminate the State of Israel? No thanks!

I see two choices:

1. Autonomy. This was what Israel seriously offered throughout the 70's and 80's. It was shot down by - guess who - Arafat and the PLO, from their terrorist HQ in Jordan, then in Lebanon, then in Tunis. It essentially means that the Palestinians run everything by themselves, except security. They have their own government, educational system, etc., etc. Like the Oslo Agreements, there will have to be mutual areas, especially water and environmental concerns, with a stress on absolute equality in supplies and standards.

2. Population transfer. We've offered peace enough times over the last 30 years. It's always been rejected. If they can't live here in peace, they can just leave - without persuasion.

3. Otherwise, if you want them to have a state, Jordan is the natural choice, with a population majority that is already Palestinian and most of the West Bank residents already being Jordanian citizens. Poor King Hussein!

In all of the above 3 cases, I also advocate that the Gaza Strip be Judenrein.

[L@mplighterM]

This statement comes from within a country that had it's land returned.



In Egypt on Friday, Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, grand imam of Al-Azhar Mosque, mainstream Islam's top seat of learning, declared: "One who blows himself up among those (Israeli) aggressors is a martyr, martyr, martyr, and whoever says otherwise is a ... liar."

[Jorge]

More about deterrence....

I was leafing today through the pages of a book that you probably all know: The Wars of the Jews by Josephus
Flavius. I couldn't stop myself from drawing parallels with the
present situation, particularly on the subject of deterrence
we were discussing above.
On one side we have the so called "zealots" with rather
wide popular support. Confronting them, the roman legions and
the huge resources of the Empire. I am sure that the mere sight
of the roman cohorts and their war machines must have been frightful to the native population. Besides, there must have been little doubt in their minds about the treatment to be expected from the romans at the aftermath. Massacres and
slavery for the survivors were then the usual treatment for
a conquered population. In spite of all, the Jews rebelled against the Romans; Jerusalem was devastated, the people put to the sword and still they didn't learn The Lesson; soon they were
again in armed rebellion.
Why? While examining the possible answers to the
question of the inefficacy of deterrence by brute force then,
may be we could arrive near to an answer as to why the same
conception of deterrence doesn't seem to work now against the
palestinians.

[takeo]

Any of the possible alternatives for a palestinian state are just not possible.
Do you think the palestinians will leave voluntarily? think twice, the only way they are going to leave is by forcing them over the border, and that will have very mean consequences for Israel...
An own administration without a state? isn't that pretty much how it is now? and do you think the Palestinians will accept to be a protectorate of Israel? Do you think the colonisers will agree to share the water supplies? (currently they use 60%) Do you think the world will accept this? It will just mean a continuation of the war.
thirth possibility i heard: making them citizens without voting rights... this would make the Apartheid-system formal, and would of course mean more trouble and civil war within the new extended state of Israel.
last possibility: continued repression in the hope to kill as many terrorists as possible, without a final solution... such a solution means certain continued instability, war, economic problems and isolation...

Be realistic, the only solution a big majority of the Palestinians (indeed not all), and most of the world, even the Arab world, will accept and have agreed to accept is a Palestinian state, independant of Israel, on the Westbank, gaza and Eastern jerusalem.
these areas are not necessary for the survival of Israel, and for the refugee-problem and eastern jerusalem there can be some solution, for example not all refugees could return but only some and the others would be offered compensation and a live in a Western country. the holy sites in Eastern Jerusalem can be put under international controll and administred by a mixed group of islamic and jewish clergy.
about the terrorism-problem: once Arafat and the PA have their own state they will do everything possible to keep it, and even groups as al-aqsa and pflp have declared that the liberation of the occupied territories (not israel) is there ultimate goal.
In their own state, arafat would also have more means to surpress fundamentalists as hamas, and for sure syria (on the condition of course that also the golan heights are returned) and other Arab countries, including SA, will be included in a deal and stop their support for hamas if these refuse to accept the new deal with Israel.
a new peace-deal should also include international assistance, (for example european or american troops at the border), and cooperation between palestine and israel in case terorist attacks against israel do not stop.

All this may not be perfect, but it is clearly preferable over the other solutions(= more bloodshet and isolation of israel).
Israel would also at last be liberated from the repressive image it has in the world, from the constant treat, and become a normal country trading with its neighbours and integrated in the region.
the only loosers will be the colonisers, but they knew from the beginning that they build their houses in insecure land that was not theirs. they will have to be relocated to israel.

[L@mplighterM]

about the terrorism-problem: once Arafat and the PA have their own state they will do everything possible to keep it, and even groups as al-aqsa and pflp have declared that the liberation of the occupied territories (not israel) is there ultimate goal.

I don?t know how Arab mentality works but it seems to me leaders should be doing everything to right now to get a state. After the fact there?s no insensitive for the ruling body to do anything to keep the peace.

On the contrary there will most likely be a weapons buildup and with time the Palestinians will be back for more. It might be said that everything certain is uncertain but in this case I believe with all certainty that establishing secure borders with the Palestinians is impossible.

[takeo]

palestinians know that there isn't more, but they know they have broad international support for the liberation of the occupied territories and the establishment of their own state, but once they establised a state even the most extreme palestinians will understand that the destruction of israel would be a totally lost case, as nobody would support them (with the exception of some rogue states) and even the Palestinian people, tired of war, would not accept to sacrifice the accomplishment of a Palestinian state, for which they fought so long, by the extremists.
Now all palestinians have more or less the same goal, with different means, the liberation of the occupied territories, once this accomplished only a small minority of palestinian extremists would want to g further, against the will of the majority of the palestinian people.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Sounds no different than the Arabs of 48, 67, and, yes, 93.

Thanks for the clarification.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
palestinians know that there isn't more, but they know they have broad international support for the liberation of the occupied territories and the establishment of their own state, but once they establised a state even the most extreme palestinians will understand that the destruction of israel would be a totally lost case, as nobody would support them (with the exception of some rogue states) and even the Palestinian people, tired of war, would not accept to sacrifice the accomplishment of a Palestinian state, for which they fought so long, by the extremists.
Now all palestinians have more or less the same goal, with different means, the liberation of the occupied territories, once this accomplished only a small minority of palestinian extremists would want to g further, against the will of the majority of the palestinian people.

I can't distinguish between Arafat and the Bin Laden's of this world people like that are made from the same mold. They are evil spawns a manifestation of dark forces in their quest for domination they care nothing for humanity.

If one looks at the history of Arafat in his wake he has left death and destruction a man surely defined as a psychopath by any standards. His quest to conquer the Middle East faded, now he only has Israel to fulfill his shattered dreams.

The Oslo II accords have not been honored by him and I have seen him on a couple of occasions waving his bloody finger and state explicitly that Jerusalem belongs to his charges. He never intended to honor that agreement. In fact he has never honored an agreement.

You takeo are a liar by omission because you always blame Israel of violating UN Resolutions. Always !!!! This is not due to ignorance because you know the facts but present only the Sections of the Resolutions that favor the Arabs.

Not once in any of your posts have I ever read the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are supposed to be demilitarized. Not once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do know what demilitarized means? What about the Mitchell Accords? What about the Tenet Plan?

I'm tired of reading your Arab propaganda because that's all it is.

[Jorge]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

If one looks at the history of Arafat in his wake he has left death and destruction a man surely defined as a psychopath by any standards. His quest to conquer the Middle East faded, now he only has Israel to fulfill his shattered dreams.
You takeo are a liar by omission because you always blame Israel of violating UN Resolutions. Always !!!! This is not due to ignorance because you know the facts but present only the Sections of the Resolutions that favor the Arabs.
Not once in any of your posts have I ever read the fact that the West Bank and Gaza Strip are supposed to be demilitarized. Not once!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm tired of reading your Arab propaganda because that's all it is.

Dear Sir, harsh words indeed !
If what Takeo wrote can be dismissed as mere Arab propaganda, should yours be dismissed as mere Israeli propaganda?
If you catalog Arafat as a psycopath by any standards
(not scientific standards I pressume), couldn't someone else
catalog Sharon as a psycopath by the same standards?
If someone ignores a clause of demilitarization of the territories, shouldn't one suppose that the presence of the
israeli military in those places is not right?
In my modest opinion, instead of hurling harsh words
to each other we should try to look for the middle ground
and to refute each other as people whose common interest
is the peace process.

[takeo]

Yes Jorge, thanks for your words.
OK, maybe i emphasised on the palestinian side of the truth, because this is exactly the side of the truth completely ignored by people like you and most other people posting on this board.
Besides, in the past we have been talking about the resolutions that condamned palestinian violence against civilians and demilitarisation (but as jorge said, demilitarisation means by both sides...) .
Arafat is a criminal and a bin-laden because he fought against an occupying force?
in that case ben-Goerion was a Bin-Laden as well, as well as Washington and all people who ever fought or led an organisation for the liberation of their people.
(bin laden never did such a thing, his only goal is the establishment of fundamentalist Islam in the whole world)

[L@mplighterM]

Dear Sir, harsh words indeed !
If what Takeo wrote can be dismissed as mere Arab propaganda, should yours be dismissed as mere Israeli propaganda?
If you catalog Arafat as a psycopath by any standards
(not scientific standards I pressume), couldn't someone else
catalog Sharon as a psycopath by the same standards?
If someone ignores a clause of demilitarization of the territories, shouldn't one suppose that the presence of the
israeli military in those places is not right?
In my modest opinion, instead of hurling harsh words
to each other we should try to look for the middle ground
and to refute each other as people whose common interest
is the peace process.

Sir

If you can’t tell the difference between a monster that intentionally orders the death of civilians versus Sharon get help.

Sharon is a man that despises the death of innocent civilians that can occur when he is forced to deploy the IDF to defend the citizens of his country.

Middle ground???? LOL Have you just returned from deep space?

Would you settle for sociopath when defining the Hell Spawn?

[Jorge]

Originally posted by takeo
.
that case ben-Goerion was a Bin-Laden as well, as well as Washington and all people who ever fought or led an organisation for the liberation of their people.
(bin laden never did such a thing, his only goal is the establishment of fundamentalist Islam in the whole world)
If by ben-Goerin you meant Goering you might be right but if
you meant ben Gurion you're off your hat. Ben Gurion was
a humanistic leader that strongly opposed the jewish terrorist
organizartions during the British Mandate. He favoured partition
against the opinion of the extreme wing of the zionist movement.
He dreamt of the State of Israel as an equalitarian society that would bring prosperity to all the region.
Bin Laden, on the other hand, is nothing more than a sophisticated assassin. May God save the whole world if these are the leaders of a fundamentalist Islam!

[takeo]

yes, i mean Ben Gurion, I may be wrong, but wasn't he one of the leaders of the armed resistance against the British colonisers???
Wasn't he also the leader opposed to the return and integration of the Palestinian refugees in this "egalitarian" society???
I share your opinion about bin Laden.
the words of Lomplighter are as usual so ridiculous and over the edge that he is doing more harm to his own viewpoint than i ever could.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
British colonisers

The British and the French are in large part responsible for much of the trouble in the ME today.

The British especially owe Jews and Arabs for the trouble they have caused us. This divide and conquer nonsense that they promulgated. :mad:

[Oh Jerusalem]

David Ben Gurion never took up arms against the British.

"When the Arab states are ready to conclude a peace treaty with Israel this question will come up for constructive solution as part of the general settlement, and with due regard to our counterclaims in respect of the destruction of Jewish life and property, the long-term interest of the Jewish and Arab populations, the stability of the State of Israel and the durability of the basis of peace between it and its neighbors, the actual position and fate of the Jewish communities in the Arab countries, the responsibilities of the Arab governments for their war of aggression and their liability for reparation, will all be relevant in the question whether, to what extent, and under what conditions, the former Arab residents of the territory of Israel should be allowed to return."

- David Ben Gurion, August 1, 1948

[takeo]

Yes, the Brittish are one of the main responsibles for the current problems.
I have no trouble either to recognise that many of the problems in Algeria and Africa are a legacy of the French colonisers.

about ben-Gurion: this are indeed reasonable words, more reasonable than the words of current Israeli leaders, but words are cheap, in reality none of the neighbours of israel attacked the country yet it never allowed the refugees back. Anyway it was not upon Israel to decide wether they should be taken back, it was an international and moral obligation still hunting the state of Israel and one of the main producers of hate and violence against Israel. one can ask if israel today would have been a peaceful prosperous Jewish-Arab mixed society integrated in the region if the israeli politicians made another decision, in stead of a fascistoid country despised by all its neighbours and by all Palestinians and in fact by most of the world.

about the resistance: "After the war, however, he led the political struggle against them and authorized sabotage activities. "

or in your words: terrorism

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/b/bengurio.asp

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
about ben-Gurion: this are indeed reasonable words, more reasonable than the words of current Israeli leaders,

"The IDF will carry out its missions from within the security zones, making a genuine effort to distinguish between the perpetrators of terrorism and the civilian, non-belligerent population. We have no quarrel with the Palestinian people and we want to see the Palestinians, like us, live in peace, security and dignity.

But peace can only be attained if, once we evacuate the territories, we find a responsible Palestinian leadership, willing to accept the primary responsibility of every regime to prevent the use of its territory for the purpose of killing and murdering its neighbors. Peace negotiations can commence and move forward only after terrorism has ceased."
- Ariel Sharon, from an address delivered to the Knesset, 08 April, 2002

Ben Gurion wouldn't have said anything under the circumstances and after 50-70 years of Arab attempts to destroy Israel.

but words are cheap,

Yes, that's a good description of your following falsehood.

in reality none of the neighbours of israel attacked the country yet it never allowed the refugees back.

I don't know who dopes you but, here on planet earth in 1948, 1967, 1973 and in between, the Arab states, the PLO and all the other Arab and Moslem terrorist organizations of the world did not but attack Israel.

Anyway it was not upon Israel to decide wether they should be taken back, it was an international and moral obligation still hunting the state of Israel

Sorry, wrong, much discussed on all the other threads already.

and one of the main producers of hate and violence against Israel. one can ask if israel today would have been a peaceful prosperous Jewish-Arab mixed society integrated in the region if the israeli politicians made another decision, in stead of a fascistoid country despised by all its neighbours and by all Palestinians and in fact by most of the world.

How hypocritical. The Arabs refused any offers to make peace with Israel in from 1948 until Sadat and you blame the problems on Israel. How handy!

The Oslo Agreements of 1993 saw Israel withdraw from mutually agreed upon areas but instead of peace in return we got more terrorism and Palestination anti-peace and anti-Israel rhetoric than ever before.

Another case of the pot calling the kettle black.

about the resistance: "After the war, however, he led the political struggle against them and authorized sabotage activities.

or in your words: terrorism

I would be more than happy to know the events that article is referring to.

It was Ben Gurion who publically renounced the tactics and methids of the Etzel and Lehi.

[takeo]

"I don't know who dopes you but, here on planet earth in 1948, 1967, 1973 and in between, the Arab states, the PLO and all the other Arab and Moslem terrorist organizations of the world did not but attack Israel. "

In 1948, yes, but that was when the problem started.
between 1948 and 1967 no single Arab state invaded israel, yet it didn't took the refugees back.
in 1967, Israel was the agressor, we had a discussion about that already. 1973 was in reaction to the refusal of Israel to give the occupied territories back.

"How hypocritical. The Arabs refused any offers to make peace with Israel in from 1948 until Sadat and you blame the problems on Israel. How handy!
The Oslo Agreements of 1993 saw Israel withdraw from mutually agreed upon areas but instead of peace in return we got more terrorism and Palestination anti-peace and anti-Israel rhetoric than ever before. "

Which offers? i'm interested...
of course any offer NOT including the return of the refugees and after 1967 the end of occupation of the occupied territories was naturally not accepted by the Arabs,
all i know is that in camp david president carter tried to include the other occupied territories in the deal... guess what was the answer of Israel... NYET, we are not giving away "parts of Israel", forget it!
the oslo-agreements were torpeded by netanyahu who never really believed in it, delayed the time-table and build more unautorisized settlements.

apparantly ben-gurion was involved too in such activities, i read it on many other sources as well.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo


In 1948, yes, but that was when the problem started.
Actually there was a history of Arabs attacking Jews long before that. What do you call the riots of '29 and '36.

Originally posted by takeo
in 1967, Israel was the agressor That is questionable at best. Nasser and his friends adopted a stance that made it impossible not to go to war. Anyone with an ounce of understanding and objectivity will tell you that there are times that require a preemptive strike for defensive purposes.

[Mediocrates]

The 6 day War was started because Israel, through methods never made clear acquired advanced knowledge of a 3 front war with Egypt, Jordan and Syria perhaps only hours away. Their initial strikes into Egypt eliminated the Egyptian air force shortly after day 1. Strikes into Jordan - west bank, and Syria - golan on days 1,2 and 3 turned the tide. The war was effectively over by the end of day 3 or 4.

[takeo]

all this is stuff for historians, what i know for sure is that "pre-emptive strikes" means that israel started the war, whatever might be the reason for starting a war...
so please stop saying that "in 1967 Arabs invaded israel" it is a lie

[Mediocrates]

IS this a lie too?

http://www.iris.org.il/quotes/quote44.htm

or this

http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm

or this

http://www.iris.org.il/plophase.htm

[takeo]

yes, because the "PA-mufti " doesn't represent the PA, and because the PLO has changed its program since 1968...

[Mediocrates]

to what exactly, officially documented?

[takeo]

http://www.nad-plo.org/permanent/sumpalpo.html

[Mediocrates]

why is a Palestinian selling land to a Jew a death sentence? before you answer, remember that that law is about 150 years old..

[takeo]

because he is considered a national traitor, as the Jews wanted to take the country from the Palestinians, since more or less 150 years (since the beginning of zionism)

[Mediocrates]

they really don't need a homeland then since they really are all angels...tell me what is it like to be the lambs of god on earth?

[Mediocrates]

and so you basically defend Syria too? having been forced to defend Lebanon from the evil zionists?

[takeo]

they don't need a homeland? So why than do the Jews need a homeland?
They are not the lamb God's, they are just human beings and should have the same rights as the Jews in the Middle east.

[Mediocrates]

no no please = they are blameless and innocent. enough said.

[takeo]

noone is blameless and innocent, certainly not the Arabs or Palestinians (nor the Jews), but everyone has rights.

[Jorge]

Reply to OhJerusalem(from o4-14,pp3)

Re. your answer about possible alternatives to the establishment of a Palestinian State, I'd like to point out that
the alternatives you favour are contrary to the best interests of the israelis and that, of the four, the creation of such an State is the one that offers greater advantages to the to the israeli nation.
quote:

" 3. Otherwise, if you want them to have a state, Jordan is the natural choice, with a population majority that is already Palestinian and most of the West Bank residents already being Jordanian citizens. Poor King Hussein! "

As you aptly put it the majority of the population is already palestinian; then you add 3 millions more, they topple the monarchy and form a Palestinian State, with an established army
and large geopolitical resources. Add to it that such an state will have no compunction about given free passage to the Iraqui
army and then you''ll have a real threat to the existence of Israel.
The alternative: a Palestinian State which cannot pose any serious military threat to the existence of Israel and Jordan
which up to now has proved to be the most moderate of the
arab countries. So what's better for Israel?

2. Transfer. ( the idea is so revolting that it's diddicult to carry on a cool argument about it,but I'll do my best)
Suppose that israelis go berserk and elect a pro-transfer government;suppose arab countries agree to open their frontiers to the new refugees;suppose that those same countries don't start a war to get all the refugees back; still Israel would have to cope with the consequences of international sanctions. These would be far more severe than those imposed years ago against South Africa or now against Iraq. In this age of globalization
and considering the dependence of Israel on the US and european markets, the results would be catastrophic and the initiative will have to be reversed.

3. Autonomy.

This alternative means going back to the pre-Oslo situation. Palestinians will not accept this but Israel has enough military power to enforce the continued occupation for a number of years. The question being, how many years? The cost of keeping the
conquered territories is weighing heavily on israeli economy.
The total cost is made up not only of military expenses,but also
of lost revenues from tourism, the drastic decrease of foreign investment and flight of capitals. The economic depression that started about two years ago is accelerating; nearly all experts agree that unless a radical change in the political situation takes place, collapse will fatally occur. Learned estimations about the date of collapse vary from 3 to 10 years but there is little disagreement about the outcome.
Thus we arrive at a paradoxical situation regarding the
continued existence of the State of Israel: on one side a Palestinian State cannot be a serious existential threat, on the
other side the refusal to accept such an State and to progress
with the peace process constitute a self inflicted menace to
the continuing existence of Israel as a democratic and stable society.

[Mediocrates]

And in the end the Palestinians who everyone claims to cry for will sit in rubble and dirt because the PA and the West is great at rhetoric and short on accomplishment. Whatever happens to Israel, good or bad the Palestinians will suffer because:

a) The root cause of the pro Palestinian movement in the West is really anti Israelism & anti Americanism and the consequences to the Palestinian people are of little import to the people in the pro Palestinian movement.

b) The PA itself has shown zero ability to care for its own people. I'm sure it's comforting to some of you to simply spit out "It's the ISraelis fault. Without a free country they can't blah blah blah" But the facts don't bear that out. In truth many Palestinians are middle class by regional standards; indistinguishable from any other Arab country. The poor are left in the **** on purpose to serve a symbol of oppression and the children are schooled in hatred and terror. Without those 3 legs of the tripod Palestinian culture would collapse. And the PA knows that withougt a middle class to run things, without poor people to sacrifice and children to do the killing, they have no reason on earth to exist at all as a 'movement'.

c) The peace movement both in the West and in Israel has been severely coopted by terrorist organizations who exist to do what they do best - wage unconventional war. The peace movement has become the public relations wing of organizations like Hamas and PIJ. One needs only to look at websites like e-intifada, women in black and the scores of Arab 'NGOs' to understand this. Look at one and you will see the same straight up and down party line. It's all the Jew/zionist/Israelis fault, always was, always will be, nothing the Palestinians can ever do will change that, nothing the Palestinians have ever done can ever be construed as terrorism - in fact it really didn't happen and is probably just a fabrication of the IDF !! You couldn't write this stuff into a bad movie !!!

[takeo]

you didn't even bother to reply to the very impressive toughts of Jorge but continued to blame the whole world for the current situation, except of course innocent Israel.
The PA can REALLY not do anything under the present situationand any economical expert will explain you that with what the Palestinians got in Oslo and in the present situation they can never build a sustainable economy, and of course it is very easy to blame everyone criticising you of being an anti-semite or anti-semite. I don't think organisations as Amnesty International or even Human rights watch (very good connections to the American stablishment) are anti-semite or even acting from a deep hate towards Israel, they are just condamning the acts Israel did and does, rightfully, and the Jews criticising israel are no kind of self-hating Jews, but Jews who don't agree with the human rights abuses and occupation. Final point, it has no further point discussing about that.

[L@mplighterM]

The PA can REALLY not do anything under the present situationand any economical expert will explain you that with what the Palestinians got in Oslo and in the present situation they can never build a sustainable economy


So why was Oslo II signed? What does that have to do with Israel? They seem to be able to buy M-16's, AK47's and a lot of other toys.

Not only that the murdering bastards get $ 25,000 per suicide attact.

You ain't going to get sympathy from me.

[Mediocrates]

which point would you like me to respond to?

[takeo]

all of them...

all those arms were bought and delivered with the agreement of Israel for the Palestinian police.
oslo on itself was good because the little islands of land were supposed to be the first step in a much larger deal that would finally end in the establishment of a Palestinian state on the occupied territories. It was never supposed that this would be final, but thanks to netanyahu (who always opposed Oslo) the process was delayed so much that it stayed like that for almost 9 years now...

[Mediocrates]

The Jordanians will never suffer any PA incursion back into Jordan. The Jordanians crushed the PLO with almost genocidal fury in 1970. In fact, if anything the creation of a free Palestine would induce the Jordanians to expel the million something Palestinians living there. They would use tanks to do it, they have before.

I'm not sure what you mean by transfer -is that nice way of saying exile? The Israelis will never exile the million plus non Jewish Israelis living in Israel. That is simply nonsense cooked up by some apocalyptic dreamer, Kahane notwithstanding.

I'm not sure what you mean by autonomy but I'm guessing you mean stasis. I haven't studied any long term projections of the Israeli economy, but frankly, I am an economist and I don't trust any prognostication 3-10 years out in the future. The Israelis have spent billions - almost 40% of the their GDP in direct and indirect expeditures on defense. This action and the cost of it as well as continued security operations are part of that budget. Now while it's true that in the last quarter the GDP dropped ~1.4% and foreign investment dropped by about ~3.4% there is a much larger internal capital investment pool at work. Israel is still a major exporter of technology and finished goods and has never suffered the kind of brain drain seen in the Arab countries. It wouldn't shock me if the Israeli economy goes into a protracted recession. But as far as can see, the Japanese miracle has been moribund for almost 12 years and no one is predicting the demise of Japan either. I seriously doubt that the Israeli economy is poised on collapse.

At any rate, they simply may not want to support such protracted security operations. As I've said before it's simply a matter of time before there is a free Palestine, we all agree that is the case. Even Sharon, Peres and Bibi say that. How it comes into being and what the precise timetable looks like is a matter of negotiation.

And at that point its hard to see how the PA will develop an economy. It won't be easy - although one thing I've read is that as a secular Arab state they have the potential to become a kind of Abu Dhabi - a kind of Las Vegas to the muslim world where wealthy Arabs can drink, gamble and whore the nights away like modern day sultans. Seriously - they have no religious or ideological problems with that. And if it becomes a mecca (sorry for the pun) for sin for the Arab world then the Arab world is less likely to want to wipe their neighbors off the map. A sure fired way to insure ones own security is to make it unprofitable for your enemy to do that. They already know about 'security' and 'crowd control' and 'money transfers'. They can buy the technology from the Israelis and the know-how from the Americans.

Or they could go route of the former Army of the RSA and become mercenaries for hire. Personally I like the former choice.

Size really isn't a barrier to economics. There are lots of models for sustainable micro economies such as Monaco, Singapore, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg. All you really need is to make, sell, service or pimp out something someone is willing to pay for.

[takeo]

True, on the condition that they have free borders with Jordan and Egypt (not only with Israel and fully controlled by Israel), that the borders are always open, that the violence stops, and that all the Palestinian territories get connected by their own highways and infrastructure.
You are right about the whores and casino's etc. The rich Arabs are indeed incredible hypocritical (even more than the Americans and Israeli...) but if it brings cash into the Palestinian economy, why not... by the way the casino's and tax-free shops (i don't know about whorehouses...) already existed and attracted many Israeli untill the violence erupted...

[takeo]

also on the condition that the Jewish settlements, at least most of them, disappear, if not the palestinians won't have enough land and water for the whole growing and more prosperous population.

[Mediocrates]

Well you understand that all settlements would have to be evacuated 100%. Those people will have to flee for their lives. All 200,000 of them. Clearly, they will be expelled under the general rubric that judaism=zionism=racism=imperialism=kill them all. Yes? And of course you understand that in keeping with the peaceful peaceloving people of peace througout the Arab world, Judaism would be outlawed.

[takeo]

blabla
don't start about those innocent victims of colonisers...
they knew very well that these lands were not belonging to Israel but came there as a statement to keep this "Holy Land" jewish forever.
Israel nor Judaism has to disappear from the Middle east, but the colonisers have to disappear from the occupied territories, on the contrary to the refugees they have no connection and no rights to that land to live there. Even most israeli aknowledge that these people are extremists ready to underminde any peace-process that would involve "land for peace".
What about those poor millions refugees and people living in refugees-camps outside israel in the occupied territories and neighbouring countries??

[Mediocrates]

Just so we're clear - the 200,000 would have to be evacuated to save their lives. The forced dislocation of 200,000 men women and children by the army. As long as you admit to that. As long as one form of relocation is doubleplusgooder than some other. OK.


Did I just read that you think Palestinian refugees in Jordan are Israels problem too? What about the Palestinians in Australia? The US? - I know some Palestinians here in Raleigh - should I tell them that they shouldn't live here and must go back to Palestine?

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Mediocrates

. Now while it's true that in the last quarter the GDP dropped ~1.4% and foreign investment dropped by about ~3.4% there is a much larger internal capital investment pool at work. moribund for almost 12 years and no one is predicting the demise of Japan either. I seriously doubt that the Israeli economy is poised on collapse.

I'm so glad you're not worried about Israel's economic woes. You know, I read today some statements of a Mr.S. Shalom
the Minister in charge of Israel's finances and he sounded rather WORRIED. Somehting about a hole of 13 billion NIS on the current
budget. He says that that deficit is a direct result of the present intifadah. I'm not an economist myself but if he's right, for as long as the present confrontation continues the budget will be down
by 2.5 billion US each year; that looks like a lot of money to me;
something like 2% of Israel's GDP? Where is he going to get them from?
You say that the GDP dropped by about 3.4% last quarter,
now, assuming a constant rate( some economists claim that
it wil be an accelerated rate) by 2004 your GDP will have decreased by more than 20%. What about unemployment by then, let's say 15%? Of course if the financial situation gets so tight you can allways default on internal and external debt
like Argentina did.
I don't want to dwell more on economics because it's not the main subject of this thread. If you as an economist were to open a new thread on the effect of the intifadah on Economy,
I'm sure it would attract a number of contributors. I myself
would like to put forward the hypothesis that the folly of
the present government and the israeli right wing is leading the
country to economic colapse.

[Mediocrates]

The short story is that foreign investment represents about 20% of the Israeli stock exchange. Let's say that that 20% goes away and the market drops by 20%. OK, Here in the US we've suffered much worse compared to April 2000. The problem is where that foreign capital gets invested. Typically it gets invested in blue chip stocks so you would see the depreciation of the best companies suffer the greatest.

Now as far as Minister Shalom spoke, what he also alluded to is cutting the national budget, an issue that has simmered since before the latest uprising. Israel has been traditionally a high tax welfare state and whether the intifada ends tomorrow or a year from now, the Israelis will have to make substantial changes in the structure of their government budget based economy. An obstacle just as large as war, to foreign investment is the degree of regulation and taxation that occurs. Moreover the tortured political process that generates budgets has to change. It can years to get specific items approved on the budget, or removed for that matter. Currecy also tends to suffer as the NIS dropped against the US dollar today on speculation that a new capital gains tax would be passed.

[takeo]

Those 200000 people are totally responsible for their faith as they never had any right to live there. If they were send there by the israeli government, than the israeli government will have to pay for their relocation.
Just read the 4th convention of Geneva...
palestinians in the US or Australia or whatever who have family roots in israel should be able to leave to israel, yet i'm sure the ones living in good conditions in Western countries will rather stay, as well as the Palestinians who made their life in Jordania. The ones in the refugee-camps however will want to return.
some negociation can be made about this matter, to prevent chaotic and irresponsible situations.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by takeo
Those 200000 people are totally responsible for their faith as they never had any right to live there. If they were send there by the israeli government, than the israeli government will have to pay for their relocation.
Just read the 4th convention of Geneva...
palestinians in the US or Australia or whatever who have family roots in israel should be able to leave to israel, yet i'm sure the ones living in good conditions in Western countries will rather stay, as well as the Palestinians who made their life in Jordania. The ones in the refugee-camps however will want to return.
some negociation can be made about this matter, to prevent chaotic and irresponsible situations.

By this logic, a third-generation American of "Palestinian" descent has more right to live in a town established and built by Israel than does a second-generation Israeli who is currently living there and has for all his life (never mind the thousands of years of history issue).

No third-general American of European descent from a refugee family who came after WWII or WWI has any right to return as a citizen to Europe. Why should Americans of third-generation "Palestinian" descent?

[Mediocrates]

Just so we're clear, takeo sir, you care nothing if they live or die, those 200,000 souls.

[L@mplighterM]

By this logic, a third-generation American of "Palestinian" descent has more right to live in a town established and built by Israel than does a second-generation Israeli who is currently living there and has for all his life (never mind the thousands of years of history issue).

No third-general American of European descent from a refugee family who came after WWII or WWI has any right to return as a citizen to Europe. Why should Americans of third-generation "Palestinian" descent?

Don’t you know by now that takeo is a specialist when it comes to interpretation of the Geneva convention?

Besides Palestinians have special privileges in accordance to every law written by mankind. If you don’t believe that just ask takeo and he’ll cut a little segment from somewhere on the web to substantiate his claim.

[takeo]

you don't even have a segment of international law to proove your case...
Israeli are always right, and if not, than the law is wrong! (or the un as an institution).

"No third-general American of European descent from a refugee family who came after WWII or WWI has any right to return as a citizen to Europe. Why should Americans of third-generation "Palestinian" descent?"

Yes, they have!!!!!!!!! Even Germans who immigrated to Russia in the 19th or 18th century have the right to return to Germany!

the israeli living in the WB or Gaza knew that this lands did not legally belong to israel, they knew that eventually these land would be returned to the real owners and they knew they were not invited by the palestinians.
i guess it's best for their own sake to return, the problem is that the big majority of settlers choose to live in this dangerous area to proove a certain ideological case. They knew from the beginning it was a big risk, and for building their houses palestinians were expropriated and sometimes their house destroyed. You don't have so much compassion with them it seems, even if those received NO compensation...(as for sure the settlers will receive).
that's why i have no compassion with these people, they don't have to die of course, but they can easily built a new life within israel, where they come from and where they can live.
Maybe the pals will agree that some of them remain, in that case they will have to live under palestinian law, but most setlers have indicated they will never agree to that, even if their safety will be garanteed.

[cerulean]

Yes, they have!!!!!!!!! Even Germans who immigrated to Russia in the 19th or 18th century have the right to return to Germany!

This is a very limited right that just applies to those particular descendants, not to descendants of Germans who went to the United States, to Mexico, to Canada, to Argentina, or to anywhere else. Just those descendants of Germans who went to Russia and Eastern Europe. Imagine if every American of German descent wanted to get back into Germany - of course there is no such provision.

The discussion above is about descendants of "Palestinians" who went to the United States, Australia (and by extension) other countries.

[L@mplighterM]

If he had to interpret the Bible he'd have everyone worshiping demons or the devil.

If he interpretated the Koran Islamic Fundamentalism would disappear over night.

[thrud]

What American resident in his/her right mind would want to return to the PA to live right now (maybe latter when they have stopped trying to kill all the Jews). The place looked like a pig sty before Sharon and the boys moved the tanks in (Never been, but TV is pretty generous with the images, so I can only assume the worst).

I'm sorry, I don't think it is going to happen. I can't see Palestinians leaving comfortable jobs in European welfare states either. This is silly.

Don't think it's going to happen until there is peace and an equal shot at properity. :confused:

[takeo]

yes thrud, you are right about that.
cerulean, there is no specific laws for Germans of Eastern Europe, people from german descent (that can proove so that their ancestors were born in Germany) from all over the world can return to Germany. the same laws exist in France by the way.

[Mediocrates]

You sound like Le Pen - let's give France back to the Gauls.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by thrud

I'm sorry, I don't think it is going to happen. I can't see Palestinians leaving comfortable jobs in European welfare states either. This is silly.

Don't think it's going to happen until there is peace and an equal shot at properity. :confused:

Welfare state is right! Keep the money flowing while I produce another kid.

[takeo]

that's a typical Le Pen-joke...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
that's a typical Le Pen-joke...

That's reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No joke if you're the one that's paying the taxes.

[takeo]

i am paying as well...
and Arabs do have jobs as wel and pay taxes as welll...
they have more children, but we will be able to use those children when in the next generation 50% of Europeans will be older than 50...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
i am paying as well...
and Arabs do have jobs as wel and pay taxes as welll...
they have more children, but we will be able to use those children when in the next generation 50% of Europeans will be older than 50...


Now I understand why you support Fundamentalists their children are going to be your slaves.

[takeo]

i will read it when i have more time, of course if it is published by the JP or like-minded i will take it with a grain of salt... (i don't know if this expression exists in english). i can also post analysis about the peace-process by E. Said... (which, as a matter of fact, ar usually more fact-based, but a little biased as well)

"there are cases that require military resolution"

indeed, but there are also cases were a military solution is excluded.

[NewsGuy]

This discussion is continued Here (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=8381#post8381).