Do the Jews have a "right" to the land of Israel?

[Alfred]

Do the Jews have a “right” to the land of Israel/Palestine?

An interesting topic that is debated every day in the Arab lands. Let’s look at history to see if we can find an illusive “right.”

Whatever your religious beliefs, most agree that written history is only around 6,000 years old. That is roughly 4,000 years BC to 2,000 AD. If you believe that the first Hebrew was Abraham, you would most likely agree that the first Hebrew/Jew/Israelite moved to Canaan in the 2,000 BC timeframe. Obviously you had prior inhabitants living in Canaan; we could call them “Native-Canaanites,” and as Abraham and his family were fairly small in number, and had emigrated from Iraq, you could not argue that Abraham could make much of a historical claim at that time.

Fast-forward a couple of generations and you have Joseph taking an all expenses paid vacation to Egypt; courtesy of his brothers. The other 11 brothers eventually relocate to Egypt, several hundred years pass, and you have a very large number of guest workers discontent in their working arrangement with the native Egyptians. A rabble-rouser named Moses returns from exile; organizes the Hebrews, and leaves Egypt for the “Promised Land.” Most people believe this occurred somewhere between 1600-1800 BC. For sake of argument let’s use 1,800 BC. We know that David was king around 1060 BC. So, from around 1,800 BC to King David you had a relatively small group of Hebrews gradually taking the land by conquest. In David’s time and certainly in Solomon’s time you could say that the land of Israel was definitely Hebrew.

The Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom of Israel in 721 BC and the people were deported. The Assyrians, moved outsiders in to settle northern Israel.s The southern kingdom of Judah survived until 70-130 AD, when the Diaspora was ushered in by the Romans.

The Romans and then the Christians (300 AD) ruled much of Israel from 130 AD to the mid 600’s AD when the Moslems rudely kicked the Christians out. Israel/Palestine was ruled by the Moslems until 1948, and has been ruled by the Jews from that time forth.

So, let’s put our thinking caps on. Native Canaanites probably 2200 years. Hebrews, roughly 1000-1300 years, Moslems 1400 years, Christians 300 years. I don’t give the Romans any claim, as they were foreign rulers, while the Christians and Moslems and Hebrews were made up of the existing people in their time. By the above quasi-analysis I would have to say that the Jews do NOT have a historical claim to the land of Canaan/Israel/Palestine. They did conquer the land, as did the Moslems and Christians for the most part. So, the only historical claim I can see is that of a conqueror.

How about a United Nations claim? After WW2 the Gentile nations of the world, feeling a bit guilty, “gave” the Jews a certain portion of the land of Israel/Palestine/Canaan. The native inhabitants were a bit put off to put it mildly, as their ancestors had conquered Palestine fair and square. They were especially ticked off that a bunch of Crusaders (bad) gave away their land to a bunch of Jews (worse). Although many of these Arabs would argue that they were “native Canaanites,” and they probably had a clearer title than did the European Jews who moved there in the 1920’s onward; things are still a bit fuzzy as far as “rights” go. As most countries would not accept the United Nations taking pieces of their land away, I would say that the Jews do NOT have a “right” to Palestine by virtue of any UN decree, especially as most Jews came from the outside to settle this piece of land. The UN is not God despite what many believe and does not have a right to distribute land that belongs to others.

Speaking of God. Is there a religious “right” of the Jews for the land of Israel/Palestine/Canaan? Ah yes; now we are talking. In fact, the God of Abraham did promise the land of Canaan to the Hebrews in approximately 2000 BC. Later, he also re-promised that land to Moses and Joshua. Now, as God is even greater than the UN, and as God created the Earth; I would say that he has a right to give the land to the Hebrews.

So…what do we have? The Jews have no historical right above that of others; they have no UN right, as the UN does not have the moral authority to take people’s land away from them; but they DO have a right given them by God. The God I believe in (and that’s all I can go on) said the land belongs to the Hebrews, not the Moslems, not the Romans, not the Greeks; and not even the Christians.

Let’s talk about the Jews in Israel today. What percentage of the Jews in Israel believe in God? What percentage could call themselves “Hebrew?” 50%? Let’s be generous. Let’s say that 50% are religious to a degree and believe all that hocus pocus about God having promised the land of Israel to Abraham. To these people I would say that you have a right to the land of Israel. To the other half I would say that you have a right by virtue of conquest, and that the conquerors can always be conquered.

If you accept that there is a God, and that Israel is yours by virtue of it having been given to you by God… then you probably realize that there will be no peace until a majority of the inhabitants of Israel believe in God and do what he asks. If the great Hebrew prophets were here today, they probably would agree with that statement.

If you do not accept that there is a God, then you are either in Israel by virtue of conquest or by virtue of some world body stealing the land from its inhabitants. You cannot complain too loudly when the previous owners try to take it back.

I hope that helps, and I am awaiting my Nobel Peace Prize.

[old-reb]

Hello Alfred,

Lets kick them jews out of Israel. There is no room on this earth for people who will not convert to Islam.

If they want to stay them make them submit to racist Sharia law or convert to Islam.

Praise Allah

[abu afak]

What do we really know -- Tangibly -- about ancient Israel?

I often see this argued.
That certain events like the Exodus cannot be proved (and I don't think it can be)
Here's a site I've found and used re this topic.
Perhaps it should be another string, but I think it fits well here,
and contains some veru good info.

".....Biblical Archaeology: Ancient Israel

Biblical archaeology then turns to the evidence for the early Israelites. The Merneptah Stele (also known as the Israel Stele) is an upright stone slab measuring over seven feet tall that contains carved hieroglyphic text dating to approximately 1230 BC. The Egyptian stele describes the military victories of Pharaoh Merneptah and includes the earliest mention of "Israel" outside the Bible. Although the specific battles covered by the stele are not included in the Bible, the stele establishes extra-biblical evidence that the Israelites were already living as a people in ancient Canaan by 1230 BC.

In addition to the Stele, a large wall picture was discovered in the great Karnak Temple of Luxor (ancient Thebes), which shows battle scenes between the Egyptians and Israelites. These scenes have also been attributed to Pharaoh Merneptah and date to approximately 1209 BC.
The Karnak Temple also contains records of Pharaoh Shishak's military victories about 280 years later. Specifically, the Shishak Relief depicts Egypt's victory over King Rehoboam in about 925 BC, when Solomon's Temple in Judah was plundered. This is the exact event mentioned in 1 Kings 14 and 2 Chronicles 12.

Outside Egypt, we also discover a wealth of evidence for the early Israelites. The Moabite Stone (Mesha Stele) is a three-foot stone slab discovered near Dibon ,East of the Dead Sea, that describes the reign of Mesha, King of Moab, around 850 BC. According to Genesis 19, the Moabites were neighbors of the Israelites. The stele covers victories by King Omri and Ahab of Israel against Moab, and Mesha's later victories on behalf of Moab against King Ahab's descendants (2 Kings 3).

The Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser is a seven-foot, four-sided pillar of basalt that describes the victories of King Shalmaneser III of Assyria. Dated to about 841 BC, the Obelisk was discovered in the ancient palace of Nimrud and shows Israel's King Jehu kneeling before the Assyrian king in humble tribute (see 2 Kings 9-10).

The House of David and Solomon's Temple

Biblical archaeology covering ancient Israeli kings and culture received a huge lift in 1994 when archaeologists discovered a stone inscription at the ancient city of Dan, which refers to the "House of David." The House of David Inscription (Tel Dan Inscription) is important because it's the first ancient reference to King David outside the Bible. Specifically, the stone is a victory pillar of a King in Damascus dated about 250 years after David's reign, which mentions a "king of Israel" (probably Joram, son of Ahab) and a king of the "House of David" (probably Ahaziah of Judah).

Another important find is the House of Yahweh Ostracon, which is a pottery shard dated to about 800 BC that contains a written receipt for a donation of silver shekels to Solomon's Temple. Written approximately 130 years after the completion of the Temple, this appears to be the earliest mention of Solomon's Temple outside the Bible."

http://biblical-archaeology.net

[Alfred]

God has given lands away to his people twice that I can think of. He gave Israel to the Hebrews and he gave America to the Gentile Christians (you have to be a Mormon to understand that one).

But there is always a catch. You must worship the God who gave you the land.

The Hebrews lost Israel in part because they turned away from their God.

The Christian Gentiles may lose America as they turn away from their God.

In the last days, the Jews will be allowed to return and try one more time.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Alfred,

Lets kick them jews out of Israel. There is no room on this earth for people who will not convert to Islam.

If they want to stay them make them submit to racist Sharia law or convert to Islam.

Praise Allah


"If you don't believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, we will kill you."

But I realize that you jest:)

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Alfred
"If you don't believe that Islam is a peaceful religion, we will kill you."

But I realize that you jest:)

And I realize that you jest too. How many wives can you have? Do you know people who have more than one? Wasn't pologamy allowed so as to quickly increase the population of the Mormans; it works for the Muslims?

I went to Salt Lake City in 1963. I could float in the salty water with my arms straight out. I tried to see how far I could dive down and came up sputtering from the salt. It healed my cold.

That was a rather lengthy article and interesting. You write good fiction.

old reb

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by old-reb
That was a rather lengthy article and interesting. You write good fiction.

old reb
You trying to pick a fight, Reb? Hang in there. Andak's lurking in the wings keeping up with things. He may come back to take you on.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by old-reb
And I realize that you jest too. How many wives can you have? Do you know people who have more than one? Wasn't pologamy allowed so as to quickly increase the population of the Mormans; it works for the Muslims?
old reb

You are absolutely right Old-Reb. It also worked for Abraham, Issac, Jacob.....not to mention King David, King Saul and King Solomon!!!

The problem with my 152 wives is that I never know which one to bring to the company Christmas party.

:)

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Alfred
You are absolutely right Old-Reb. It also worked for Abraham, Issac, Jacob.....not to mention King David, King Saul and King Solomon!!!

The problem with my 152 wives is that I never know which one to bring to the company Christmas party.

:)

152, that is a lot.

Some 20 years ago I saw a program on tv about Mormans having so many wives; they showed a wealthy businessman with about 5 wives. One he married when she was a teenager and he was about 45. The Cameraman went to the police to try to get them to arrest the guy but no cigar. He said that it would just cause too much problems even tho it was against US law.
I don't really know much about mormans. They are ok as far as I know except this Pologamy thing and that doesn't even bother me. It is just a blimish on their religion by most standards.

old reb

[old-reb]

Originally posted by MichaelC
You trying to pick a fight, Reb? Hang in there. Andak's lurking in the wings keeping up with things. He may come back to take you on.

He is ok. He just wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the @ss.

old reb

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Alfred
God has given lands away to his people twice that I can think of. He gave Israel to the Hebrews and he gave America to the Gentile Christians (you have to be a Mormon to understand that one).

But there is always a catch. You must worship the God who gave you the land.

The Hebrews lost Israel in part because they turned away from their God.

The Christian Gentiles may lose America as they turn away from their God.

In the last days, the Jews will be allowed to return and try one more time.

It seems like I have to become a theologian to make posts here.

Jews have lived in the ME for thousands of years and it seems to me whether they are religious or not they have every right to be there. Land however has to be defended from enemies whose goal is to eliminate the State of Israel, as a matter of fact all land has to be protected from invaders.

The main difficulty in eliminating Arab/Muslim terrorism lays in the fact that external interference complicates that matter. The well-oiled PR machine of the Arabs and of course the fact that Europeans have their hands in the pocket of Arab States compounds the problem of Israel. Israel doesn’t have free reign when it comes to dealing with the Palestinians.

Quite frankly I find it bizarre that anyone would entertain the thought that there’s a sort of magnet that, will draw the Jews to Israel in the end times.

If Islam ever reaches the point where they will dominate the world I truly hope that the Sphinx becomes a beacon that will glow for the next million years or so.

[Communication]

Yesterday, a woman with a big sign that read, "His pain, your gain" came up to me at the cross walk and told me to read Isaiah. So I told her to read the Book of Thomas. She rolled her eyes. I rolled mine. And we parted. This morning, the guy at the breakfast truck was talking to some of us about the weather in "his country." I asked him what country he's from and he said, "Arabia." He was about 50+ years old.

Everyone believes what they want to believe.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Communication


Everyone believes what they want to believe.

Some people say believe what I believe or die or submit to being an inferior being.

old reb

[Alfred]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
It seems like I have to become a theologian to make posts here.

Yes you do....and for only $343.95 (have your credit card ready), you can become an ordained Preacher in the Church of Larry or Ted. Then you can make your own rules and set your own morals, and live free of all judgement.

Originally posted by L@mplighterM


Jews have lived in the ME for thousands of years and it seems to me whether they are religious or not they have every right to be there.

You make an excellent point. In fact, the Jews have done a hundred times better with the land than any other people that we know of. But my point is that Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them, not because they have conquered it. If that were the case, the the Arabs and certainly the Native-Canaanites have a stronger claim....at least they would once they took it back. If your only right is by conquest then it is open season for the past inhabitants. Alternatively, if Israel is yours only because of a benevolent UN, then the UN could change its mind. I am saying that the Jews have a stronger claim to the land of Israel than through UN benevolence or conquest.


Originally posted by L@mplighterM

Quite frankly I find it bizarre that anyone would entertain the thought that there’s a sort of magnet that, will draw the Jews to Israel in the end times.


It is not so bizzare really. Just 60 years ago there was a very good reason for Jews to leave Europe. Had there been a Jewish Israel at that time, do you not believe that they would have fled to Israel? What if that happened again? Some of you see signs of anti-jewish activity on the rise in Europe. What if something similar also occured here in the States?

I don't think that Israel will draw Jews to it like a magnet. I think that things will get so bad that the Jews will be kicked out of many countries and will flee to Israel. I am not saying I like it, I am just saying it is in the scriptures that this will happen. Along with that you will find religious persecution against everyone. The Church of Larry will be the only acceptable religion, as all others will be homo-phobic, rascist, sexist, anti-everything goes, behind the times, and unacceptable to run for office, sit as a judge, or be in business. You are starting to see that "test"given today.

Whether one believes it or not. You do have history as a guide to how it could happen. Spain 1492, Europe 1940's, etc.

[jewbyc]

The first aliyah occured in Israel between the years 1882 and 1903 here is how Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described Israel as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

Jewish hard work made Israel a triving land once more.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Alfred
Yes you do....and for only $343.95 (have your credit card ready), you can become an ordained Preacher in the Church of Larry or Ted. Then you can make your own rules and set your own morals, and live free of all judgement.



You make an excellent point. In fact, the Jews have done a hundred times better with the land than any other people that we know of. But my point is that Israel belongs to the Jews because God gave it to them, not because they have conquered it. If that were the case, the the Arabs and certainly the Native-Canaanites have a stronger claim....at least they would once they took it back. If your only right is by conquest then it is open season for the past inhabitants. Alternatively, if Israel is yours only because of a benevolent UN, then the UN could change its mind. I am saying that the Jews have a stronger claim to the land of Israel than through UN benevolence or conquest.




It is not so bizzare really. Just 60 years ago there was a very good reason for Jews to leave Europe. Had there been a Jewish Israel at that time, do you not believe that they would have fled to Israel? What if that happened again? Some of you see signs of anti-jewish activity on the rise in Europe. What if something similar also occured here in the States?

I don't think that Israel will draw Jews to it like a magnet. I think that things will get so bad that the Jews will be kicked out of many countries and will flee to Israel. I am not saying I like it, I am just saying it is in the scriptures that this will happen. Along with that you will find religious persecution against everyone. The Church of Larry will be the only acceptable religion, as all others will be homo-phobic, rascist, sexist, anti-everything goes, behind the times, and unacceptable to run for office, sit as a judge, or be in business. You are starting to see that "test"given today.

Whether one believes it or not. You do have history as a guide to how it could happen. Spain 1492, Europe 1940's, etc.

I think that the Holocaust has made it impossible for Jews to be slaughtered like lambs again. If Jews are ever placed in a similar position like that again civilization will end and rightfully so. I’d rather be dust circulation in the atmosphere versus die at the hands of Muslims. Hand over the weapons and march into the railroad cars is a thing of the past.

I don’t believe that anyone could write something thousands of years ago and it will become a reality today, that’s so much nonsense. Why not sit on a stool and wait for what is written to unfold?

In any event what you believe or not makes no difference to me. Prophecy, G_d or not the title for land is retained through strength and if you can’t hold it you loose it.

I’m not one that wants to dig millions or even thousands of years into the past to decide who or who doesn’t have title to land. Does all the land in the world belong to the first human? The fact is that the State of Israel is there now and that’s not to the Arabs liking. As far as I’m concerned the WB and GS belong to Israel, it should be considered the spoils of war. I wouldn’t have returned a square inch of the conquered territories for peace or anything else as a matter of fact I think that Israel should have continued the six day war until each and every Arab was dead or begged for mercy.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by jewbyc
The first aliyah occured in Israel between the years 1882 and 1903 here is how Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described Israel as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

Jewish hard work made Israel a triving land once more.

I heard that Mark Twain books have been banned. I don't know, I just heard.

old reb

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by Alfred
[

It is not so bizzare really. Just 60 years ago there was a very good reason for Jews to leave Europe. Had there been a Jewish Israel at that time, do you not believe that they would have fled to Israel? What if that happened again? Some of you see signs of anti-jewish activity on the rise in Europe. What if something similar also occured here in the States. [/B]

You make a good point here.It is not beyond the realm of possibility that the jews of France will have to decide in the foreseeable future whether to remain in an increasingly hostile environment in the midst of a growing muslim population or to emigrate.
The question would be how many would choose Israel over the US or other western countries.

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by old-reb
I heard that Mark Twain books have been banned. I don't know, I just heard.

old reb

Banned where?

[old-reb]

Originally posted by jewbyc


Jewish hard work made Israel a triving land once more.

and the envy of the lazy ----.

old reb

[abu afak]

Originally posted by jewbyc
The first aliyah occured in Israel between the years 1882 and 1903 here is how Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described Israel as: "...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

Jewish hard work made Israel a triving land once more.

Even more fully:



"There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] -- not for 30 miles in either direction...
One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. ...
For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee ...
Nazareth is forlorn ...
Jericho lies a moldering ruin ...
Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation... untenanted by any living creature...
A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds ... a silent, mournful expanse ... a desolation ...
We never saw a human being on the whole route ...
Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country ...
Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery Palestine must be the prince. The hills barren and dull, the valleys unsightly deserts [inhabited by] swarms of beggars with ghastly sores and malformations. Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes ... desolate and unlovely ..."

[Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, 1867]

[abu afak]

Originally posted by old-reb
and the envy of the lazy ----.

old reb

(Spring 1921)

Challenged that the Jews were not needed to develop Palestine, Churchill replied:

"Left to themselves, the Arabs of Palestine would not in a thousand years have taken effective steps towards the irrigation and electrification of Palestine. They would have been quite content to dwell—a handful of philosophic people—in wasted sun-drenched plains, letting the waters of the Jordan flow unbridled and unharnessed into the Dead Sea."

WinstonChurchill.org

[red crabtree]

Hey Alfred, you know what the advantages of being one of 152 wives would be?
1. One of those wives would likely enjoy doing the housework, and if I were one of those wives I would encourage her in her endeavor.
2. There would likely be someone that enjoyed shopping too, I would be happy to hand out the money to her and wish her happy hunting.
3. If you didn't feel like doing the deed that night, I'm sure that someone would. Go and enjoy! I'm going to sleep.
4. If it was a good night for the deed I'm sure that someone else would like to sleep. Hey Honnneeey over here!

:D Sorry couldn't resist! I just sometimes think there are advantages to more than one wife for women too. Unless I had some guy trying to tell me what to do all the time anyway, that would not work out well.

About Israel and land. That's too deep tonight, can't wrap my brain around it. Have to pull an extra day tomorrow to take care of new wound patients or nothing will get down over the weekend. So good night, take care and enjoy the pondering on Israel.

[abu afak]

error

[old-reb]

Originally posted by frizzer1
Banned where?

http://www.boondocksnet.com/twainwww/essays/civil_rights9809.html

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by old-reb
http://www.boondocksnet.com/twainwww/essays/civil_rights9809.html

Ahhh.I see.Ok thanks.
Somehow I got the feeling that the banning was of muslim origin, due to the thread.
Finn has been banned before due to the N word.How silly of them.Would we want a book banned because the characters said ?
Small minds don't deserve that book anyway, I guess.

Ok..I included the "K" word in this post.Looks like it was automatically edited out.Is that reasonable?It's a bit like book banning isn't it???

[Alfred]

Originally posted by red crabtree
Hey Alfred, you know what the advantages of being one of 152 wives would be?
4. If it was a good night for the deed I'm sure that someone else would like to sleep. Hey Honnneeey over here!



No wonder I am exhausted all the time. I thought it was Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.


:)

[Chaya_G]

How about a United Nations claim?

Like it or not, the UN is the only internationally accepted entity which guarantees the rights of both Arabs and Israelis to form states in Palestine. Both parties were given equal rights to form separate states. Denigrating the rights of one party negates the rights of the other as well. One party chose not to act upon its rights.

Even today, they reap the consequences for this decision. The Palestinian state could have become as great as Israel is today, with G_d's help. G_d helps those who help themselves. The terrorists among them will not ultimately prevail, as every single tyrant who has ever lived--from the last Philistine king to Nero, from Hitler and Muzzolini to Bin Laden--will not be able conquor G_d Himself.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Chaya_G
How about a United Nations claim?

Like it or not, the UN is the only internationally accepted entity which guarantees the rights of both Arabs and Israelis to form states in Palestine. Both parties were given equal rights to form separate states. Denigrating the rights of one party negates the rights of the other as well. One party chose not to act upon its rights.

Even today, they reap the consequences for this decision. The Palestinian state could have become as great as Israel is today, with G_d's help. G_d helps those who help themselves. The terrorists among them will not ultimately prevail, as every single tyrant who has ever lived--from the last Philistine king to Nero, from Hitler and Muzzolini to Bin Laden--will not be able conquor G_d Himself.

Winning and loosing is sort of like two states and it can be difficult to define. It’s quite true that dictators come and go but the damage that they inflict; sometimes extend far into the future.

If you cut into history around the mid 1930’s when Hitler was paving his way to power, it becomes apparent that the Treaty of Versailles partly made that possible. Hitler’s insanity caused the death of 10,000,000 of millions lives and changed the demographics of the world forever.

Would the State of Israel be a reality without the Holocaust? Would emigration of Muslims into Europe and the world to fill the void left by WWII? Would Islamic fundamentalism be a growing movement today without WWII?

Of course it’s impossible to second-guess history but everything in life does come down to “for the want of a nail”.

From that point of view tyrants do alter the course of history and unfortunately it’s everlasting.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Winning and loosing is sort of like two states and it can be difficult to define. It’s quite true that dictators come and go but the damage that they inflict; sometimes extend far into the future.

If you cut into history around the mid 1930’s when Hitler was paving his way to power, it becomes apparent that the Treaty of Versailles partly made that possible. Hitler’s insanity caused the death of 10,000,000 of millions lives and changed the demographics of the world forever.

Would the State of Israel be a reality without the Holocaust? Would emigration of Muslims into Europe and the world to fill the void left by WWII? Would Islamic fundamentalism be a growing movement today without WWII?

Of course it’s impossible to second-guess history but everything in life does come down to “for the want of a nail”.

From that point of view tyrants do alter the course of history and unfortunately it’s everlasting.

It would be easy to resolve if the tyrant lived in Palestine but he lived in the past but today in the heart of Islam as Allah.

old reb

[red crabtree]

Lamplighter just for clarification. WWII caused the deaths of approximately 61 million people. 6 million of those deaths were Jewish and about 20 million were Russians. I don't recall all the figures from every nation, but I do recall 10 million in China. While the 61 million is a total count and I suppose techniquely not all can be related to Hitler because millions were from fighting the Japanese, they were allies and the without that alliance the war may have ended sooner. Resources that would have went to fight Hitler went to the Pacific and China instead.
That said, your right in that historical events reverberate through the centuries constantly. That reverberation does not ever stop. So do the Jews have a right to the land? One can argue much about that, but I bring it down to something simple in my mind anyway. It has nothing to do with Bibical writing. It has to do with the fact that the country was established by UN mandate. The country per the UN is a country, it has nothing to do with bibical writing to me anymore.
Secondly it is not as if the Jewish people were ever totally gone from the middle east. While the dispora is something that we know happened historically, there still remained a Jewish population and communities in the ME nonetheless. The land they live in now was never a country in the modern sense until Israel was declared a country by the UN either. It was a mandate to the English following WWI and the breakup of the Ottoman empire. Would this have happened without WWII? I believe it would have, though likely slower. There was already a significant movement of Jews from Europe into what is now Israel following WWI and the area being part of the British mandate. Once the Ottoman's no longer had control the area was open for settlement of Jewish communities that would not have to live under the system that the Ottomans established for those not of the Muslim faith, and for the life of me I can't recall what that was called. Give me a smack in the head, my neurons are misfiring.

Oh, and Alfred got a date set yet? Though I don't know how well my Episcopal butt will get along with the rest! :)

[Robby]

I think the Jewish people have a right to the land. After the Romans conquered Jeresalem in 70AD, a majority of the Jewish population were exiled, but a remnant remained. Pretty much occupying the cities, they kept a constant presence in the land during the dispora. During the 1800's, the land was desolate and foresaken--it really was a place that was up for grabs.

What does not make sense to me is the idea that Araba were clamoring to come into the land and transform it to richness. First of all, Arabs did occupy the land for millenia and they didn't do squat with it, except for perhaps built a few mosques. Secondly, knowing the Arab character as we do today, industriousness and ingenuity do not seem to be their one of the most valued characteristics.

So when Jewish people suffered persecution and were driven out of Eastern Europe and Russia during the 1800's, it might surprise anyone that the one place in the world they wanted to go was the neglected backwater of the Arab world. Then these Jewish immigrants, along with descendants of Jews who never left, actually gave a care about the land. The cared so much so that they were willing to drain malaria-ridden swamps, cultivate desert fields, smooth out sand dunes to build cities, and overall build up this land they loved.

Arab residents and settlers, to their credit, did farm the land and set up shops in cities. However, given the previous years under Arab rule, it's my opinion the area would have developed like it did without Jewish presence.

So the fact that the land was never established as an Arab nation, only occupied by foreign powers, until 1948 when Israel won her Independence tells me she has every right to the land. I believe they have Biblical ties too.

[Isiah 2:4]

I don’t believe that anyone could write something thousands of years ago and it will become a reality today, that’s so much nonsense. Why not sit on a stool and wait for what is written to unfold?

Lamplighter - Nostradamus ( who was a jewish doctor ) predicted that around the turn of the second christian millenia that the world would be gripped by terrorism.

As for the point on the 'magnet' that will draw all Jews to Israel.
All i know is that i have never been raised with religion. The only religious services i have attended have been funerals or kaddish recitals. Until around a year ago, i had no sense of spirituality, and certainly not in the Jewish sense.

At the moment i still regard myself as a humanist, but gradually, with my studies in philosphy and religion, i can feel myself gravitating towards religious beliefs. I know already that i will maybe make aliyah to Israel. And the day i step off the plane will be the happiest day of my life, and certainly the most spiritual. The feelings that propel me to do this and to anticipate it are inexplicable, and the only way i can expalin it, is that there is attraction to Israel being induced by something spiritual.

[Communication]

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Lamplighter - Nostradamus ( who was a jewish doctor ) predicted that around the turn of the second christian millenia that the world would be gripped by terrorism.

As for the point on the 'magnet' that will draw all Jews to Israel.
All i know is that i have never been raised with religion. The only religious services i have attended have been funerals or kaddish recitals. Until around a year ago, i had no sense of spirituality, and certainly not in the Jewish sense.

At the moment i still regard myself as a humanist, but gradually, with my studies in philosphy and religion, i can feel myself gravitating towards religious beliefs. I know already that i will maybe make aliyah to Israel. And the day i step off the plane will be the happiest day of my life, and certainly the most spiritual. The feelings that propel me to do this and to anticipate it are inexplicable, and the only way i can expalin it, is that there is attraction to Israel being induced by something spiritual.

Where are you studying and what? I'm having the same experience. I may have had more religious training growing up, but it's just now starting to really affect who I am. It started in the last two years when I took a class in Jewish philosophy and then I took a class just on Jewish literature. Then, I started studying Jewish history more and more and each one enhances the others. When I'm in a small group arguing over the talmud and interpreting torah, I sometimes feel like I'm over 5000 years old. There's something very mystical about it. I feel connected to Jews from all ages now. And when I was in Israel last year for the first time, I was swimming in the Kinneret and I saw all these other Jews wading in the distance, and I could hear them laughing and speaking hebrew. It was so overwhelming. We are a timeless people.

[Chaya_G]

B"SD
Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Winning and loosing is sort of like two states and it can be difficult to define

Your questions are excellent. Hitler's rise was made possible by the unsolved problems left over after WWI. I would say, however, that the Islamist Revolution (it's not entirely Islamic yet) was made possible not by WWII, but by the US own support of Islamic groups against the Soviet Union.

Nevertheless, while Hitler managed to slaughter millions of people, his ultimate goals--an Aryan super-power and the destruction of the Jewish people--were quite definitely NOT achieved, as Bin Laden's goals also will not be achieved. Rather, a good will come about that is radically different from whatever he envisioned, as it happened in Hitler's case. Israel will be strengthened now, even as it was then, although at the time, the opposite appeared to be true.