Where are the "good" Arabs?

[NewsGuy]

Despite the hard feelings, there are of course plenty of Palestinians who want peace and are willing to live as good neighbors alongside Israel. Many of our readers may not realize that in many places in Israel (and elsewhere) there are good friendships on a personal level between Israelis and Palestinians.

Many Palestinians, as well, say that they would much rather live in Israel, even under the rule of the Sharon government, than go live under the corrupt and brutal Palestinian dictatorship.

The big question is where are those “good” Palestinians who oppose Islamic extremism and terrorism? Why are they never heard from publicly and why is there no Palestinian peace movement? Why does the Palestinian and Arab community never cast out its extremists, or publicly dissociate from the so-called religious leaders who incite to violence and hatred?

[L@mplighterM]

One of the good (don't like that word) Palestinians was dragged through town the other day. I think that there were seven Palestinaians executed.

Helping Jews for $$$$$ or otherwise is not healthy in that neck of the woods. What good is money if you can't live to spend it.

The guy that was dragged through town had several sisters that are going to remain maidens. The father lost his job.

And life goes on................................................ ....

Anyways it sends a clear message to the Palestinian community.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Helping Jews for $$$$$ or otherwise is not healthy in that neck of the woods. What good is money if you can't live to spend it.
...
Anyways it sends a clear message to the Palestinian community.

Sure, but you have to wonder about the Arab societies in which no one speaks out against terrorism publicly, not even in the Arab community in the US and in Europe, where there is no threat of violence.

[L@mplighterM]

The fourth plane was supposed to have crashed into the White House and most likely the aim was to kill the President of the US.

Islamic Fundamentalism has its evil fingers everywhere in the world. I honestly believe that world leaders are afraid of the fanatics and so a truce of sorts is created. Leave me alone and I?ll leave you alone.

With enough determination anyone could be assassinated in the world. For the most part I for one do not believe that Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia or any of the countries give two hoots in hell about Israel.

Sure they might condemn it but so what even a mass murderer can say he?s sorry. As far as I?m concerned the whole world is in deep trouble and most people don?t even realize it. Islamic fundamentalists are bound by their holy book to conquer the world and we have all witnessed their style.

Will they succeed?

Well there?s been an influx of these fanatics everywhere in the world and considering where technology is heading they might. It?s a frightening thought to think that our womenfolk will be treated like dirt.

Is this the beginning of the end for personal freedoms and democracy?

I think so because the balance between economic collapse and a stable society is very fragile. Currently it is a few countries that act as a glue holding democracy and civilization together. At any given time anarchy is just around the corner. A few thermonuclear devises in New York, Los Angeles and London and there would most likely be an economic collapse.

It wasn?t very long ago that many were worried about a biological attack and that threat is still there. Will it ever happen? Just a matter of time!!!!!!

[bakuda]

L@mplighterM, it's early in the morn, and already you've managed to depress me. But you are right, it is just a matter of time before another WC-type disaster happends. Terrorists have the upper hand... they controle when and how they strike. I think that the general public as well as governments fail to the gravity of the situation. It seems better to just cover one's eyes sometimes and pretend you don't see the monster looming over you.

As to why the 'good' arabs don't talk? There is such a rift between Jews and Arabs that for an arab to IMPLY that he agrees with a jew, no matter on what issue.... ....that arab would be ostrosized.

[L@mplighterM]

Yes it is depressing when you consider what might come to pass years from now.
Years ago I read about a Cobalt-Magnesium 10,000 Mega Ton Thermo Nuclear device. It’s powerful enough to wipe out all of humanity unless you were underground and remained there for the next few thousand years.

Give me liberty or give me the bomb.

I haven’t got a death wish but I sure wouldn’t want the Islamic Psychopaths to exercise control over me or mine. So if at any time in the future it starts looking like that let them eat radiation.

[bakuda]

hey, there's still mars.

(isn't that Zubrin guy jewish?)

[ibrodsky]

So where are all of those "good" Palestinians?

The most recent poll shows that 85% of Palestinian Arabs support terrorism.

The Palestinian people have wholeheartedly embraced evil.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
The most recent poll shows that 85% of Palestinian Arabs support terrorism.

Which makes the issue of "collateral damage" that would result from a full scale war on Palestinian terrorism all the more justified.

[Anti-Intifada]

Good Arabs??????

They were executed long ago by their Islamic brothers.

In Arab society anyone who calls for peace would be executed as a traitor and his body dragged through the streets to show other Arabs what will happen to them if they oppose killing Jews. That's why there's no peace movement in Arab countries.

[Jorge]

NewsGuy proposed a set of questions, namely "Where are the
"good" arabs that oppose terrorism?" and " Why they are never heard from publicily and why is there no palestinian peace movement?" In my opinion, these are quite good questions
and as such, present in the minds of most people interested in the conflict. The problem with good questions is that they
cannot usually be answered in a clear cut and straight forward way and that the answers lead to more questions. The former explains why I'll try in the following to discuss those questions
in a rather roundabout manner instead of proposing simple answers.
(to be continued)

[Jorge]

(Continuation)

It may be correct to say that palestinian voices condemning the killing of inocent israeli civilians are very seldom heard nowadays; what is not correct is to say is that they are never heard.
In fact, not so long ago in those rosy days following the
Oslo agreements, they were often heard, loud and clear.
There was then even a palestinian peace movement with close
ties to a number of PLO factions and with considerable popular support. Thus, as I said, we are led to more questions:
Why then and not now? What happened to the people that
used to hail peace?

A simple answer, frequently heard in the israeli side, is that those voices were not genuine, that it was all a big fake. This answer is rather hard to accept; in those post-Oslo days the peace pronouncements didn't come only from PLO leaders;
they were heard also in the frequent arab-israeli meetings at
all levels, from schoolchildren, students, artists, workers, writers,
journalists, etc. To think that all this was part of a premeditated scam is preposterous

[Jorge]

(I'm sorry for the interruptions, but I get logged out every
ten minutes or so and I loose what's written. Anyone knows why?)

[Jorge]

(continuation)

Another answer, more complex but worth exploring,is that in those few years there was a profound change in the palestinian society. This changed resulted not only in the transformation of former pacifists into belicists but, even more radical: from people that formerly abhored the acts of suicide bombers into ones that could contemplate those acts with indifference or even approval. It would be to follow an sterile thread to look for causes solely within the palestinian society.
In our days there is no such a thing as a closed society whose
culture evolves only due to internal factors. The changes, in all probability, were brought about by the interaction with israeli
policies and actions. It is of utmost interest to examine those causes because by so doing we might find out what was done wrong in both sides and may be to find a way to start all over again... and this time to do it right.
(to be continued)

[L@mplighterM]

I?m certainly not aware of PRO ISRALI demonstrations in the world of ISLAM.

Of course I don?t watch everything on TV and I could be wrong.

When I see Islamic Fundamentalists demonstrating for Israel?s I?ll believe that there's good Arabs.

[Mediocrates]

Maybe the moderate Palestinians were the 1000 people executed summarily by the PA w/o trial for being 'collaborators'. Usually this means someone who has prospered more than their neighbors, for whatever reason.

Why is there no Palestinian civil rights movement? Because they live under totalitarianism, that's why. And it's not a factor of poverty either. Go to a PA website or one of the many pro Palestinian 'peace' organization websites including the medical charity ones. If you look at some of the statistics they publish one thing becomes glaringly clear. Most, not all, but most Palestinians are solidly middle class by regional standards. 60% have cell phones, half own a car, 2/3rds own a washing machine and so on. The problem is that the average Palestinian woman has 7 births and 5 living children born between her 17th and 45th birthday. So in effect most Palestinians are very young and the population of children is exploding. This is not the group of people who will ever be moderates. These are the new recruits of bomb factories. The easily moulded impressionanble radicalized youg people who will march off to certain suicide for the glory of who the hell knows what.

[L@mplighterM]

The problem is that the average Palestinian woman has 7 births and 5 living children born between her 17th and 45th

So by the age of 45 two of her children have been converted into $ 50,000 less expenses of course leaving a potential of $ 125,000 for her retirement.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Maybe the moderate Palestinians were the 1000 people executed summarily by the PA w/o trial for being 'collaborators'. Usually this means someone who has prospered more than their neighbors, for whatever reason.
Well said.

[Northlander]

As far as Im concerned the whole world is in deep trouble and most people don´t even realize it. Islamic fundamentalists are bound by their holy book to conquer the world and we have all witnessed their style.

Wake up!!!!!!!! How stupid are you? Have you ever read history?
There was a time when christianity played that role in the world.
We conquered arab territories and american. Asian and african.
In the name of the holy book. It was not even considered a sin to kill a non-christian. There you have ONE reason for SOME muslims believeing the same thing. The truth is that those fundamentalists are not very powerful. When I see their expansion and influence and our way of life have to make a last stand then I will join you in your resistance.
But you live in a dream world. We have as many christian lunatics in the world today. things like WACO texas. Protestants throwing rocks at catholic school girls in N.Ireland. I have seen christians putting themselves on crosses with nails through their hands in s.America. Not to mention the hindus in India that are organized in something that is best described as something like hitlerjugend. Singing songs around campfires and propagating to build a temple in the honor of their god of war(name?), on the testsite of their nuclear arms!!! there is alot of lunatics in the world today. But how does it feel for you guys to wake up every morning being so scared? Cant you really see that apart from the most eminent threat of terrorism we here in the westernworld are in control? Its mostly people in the thirdworld that REALLY has to wake up not knowing what life will bring.

Which makes the issue of "collateral damage" that would result from a full scale war on Palestinian terrorism all the more justified.
That is fascism. The world will be a much safer place for you after that! yeah right. Choose your enemies my friend. Not all people in this world would sit still and watch such actions. You will not just fight stonethrowing arabs in eternity if you cross to many lines.

Amercian and Israeli arrogance knows no limits Im sad to hear. There are more scenarios in the future than west agains islam you know. Also there are more ways of combat the american influence in the world than open conflict. Not all european states are all to happy about american arrogance when it comes to economics and trade. That goes for other nations as Japan and China too. I must say that among the next generation that will run EU all your goodwill since WWII will finally be gone. You can already see this in the statements from EU politicians. Its no longer automatically wrong to critisise Israel OR USA. Cross the lines and do what you so obviously want to do, the final ethnical cleansing of all arabs in Palestine. Then you will at last create a full scale european embargo against you. USA will run for cower and you will be isolated.
"collateral damage" it makes me sick. You are so naive. Its really not all people in the world that accept it the way americans do after their great loss of 11th sept.
Its things like that that makes you so provocative.
Economic strenght are more powerfull in the long run. And Israel is without america really a small not very strong nation, not at all capable of taking on the whole world under economic sanctions.

[ibrodsky]

Wake up!!!!!!!! How stupid are you? Have you ever read history?
There was a time when christianity played that role in the world.
We conquered arab territories and american. Asian and african.
In the name of the holy book. It was not even considered a sin to kill a non-christian.

So the past barbarism of Christianity justifies the present barbarism of militant Islam?

The difference, which you studiously avoid, is that Christianity has been modernized and the extremists are a tiny minority with very little support. Islam, in contrast, does not even contemplate separation of church and state -- let alone standard Enlightment ideas.

To wit, you paper over present day militant Islam's backwardness with complaints about a form of Christianity that all but vanished hundreds of years ago.

But you live in a dream world. We have as many christian lunatics in the world today. things like WACO texas.

Things like Waco, Texas? How does Janet Reno massacring a religious cult figure in any of this?

Amercian and Israeli arrogance knows no limits Im sad to hear. There are more scenarios in the future than west agains islam you know. Also there are more ways of combat the american influence in the world than open conflict. Not all european states are all to happy about american arrogance when it comes to economics and trade.

Your hostility towards the US and Israel -- in defense of Islam -- is revealing.

Europe has practiced protectionism for a long time. This is nothing new. Nor is Europe's glee at finding a respectable reason for lambasting Israel.

Maybe you should get your own house in order first. I am not playing the "anti-semitic card" -- the recent rise of anti-semitism in Europe is indisputable and shameful, and shows that old habits die hard.

"collateral damage" it makes me sick. You are so naive. Its really not all people in the world that accept it the way americans do after their great loss of 11th sept. .

No, certainly a large fraction of the Islamic world rejects the US' right to defend itself against terrorism. Of course, if Islamic-fascist regimes like the Taliban did not harbor and aid mass murders, we would not have had to bomb them.

You can complain about the US all you want. The fact that you see the slaughter of 3,000 Americans as no justification for use uf sufficient force to end a totalitarian regime (that murdered its own people for sport in Kabul stadium) and flush out their evil "guests" speaks volumes about your morality.

Economic strenght are more powerfull in the long run. And Israel is without america really a small not very strong nation, not at all capable of taking on the whole world under economic sanctions.

And when do you predict the "whole world" will take economic sanctions against Israel while the US quietly abandons her?

Don't look now, but Germany's Chancellor has just given a very pro-Israel speech and announced the end of a very short-lived arms embargo.

Go ahead, call us stupid. We know what you are...

[Northlander]

So the past barbarism of Christianity justifies the present barbarism of militant Islam?
no it does not.
To wit, you paper over present day militant Islam's backwardness with complaints about a form of Christianity that all but vanished hundreds of years ago.
It hasnt vanished totally. As late as during the vietnam war an american priest said "god has given us the weapons, let us use them" Numerous guerillas use christianity as a reason for fighting.
I have personal friends of mine that claims that the serbian warcrimes in bosnia was legitimate cause they are the only thing that stands between us and the great muslim invasion. It is a religous war for many serbs who sees themselves as fighters for christianity.
Christian militant fanatism is still alive. Not as videspread as militant islam maybe but it is still there. Waco was maybe a bad example but my point is that if we turned things around and only showed lets say the people of india day after day of pictures of christian lunatics. Wrote about it in a religous perspective all the time. Their picture of us here in west would be somewhat different. We never sees any peaceful arabs minding there own bussines somewhere in the Iranian countryside. It has no newsvalue here in the west. As with people here most arabs/muslims would only want to go on with there own life and live in peace. Our media here are to blame for alot of the anti-islam feelings around. Give me control of any asian countrys media and I will have them gape in wonder of the fanatical brutal christians around the world.
I dont say there is no fundametalism in Islam I just say you exaggerate it as I just exaggerated the christian. What is interesting is WHY did christianity leave this dark history and evolved? It was not by collectivly beeing the victims of "collateral damage" for year after year. More from the christian societies within. Same will happen with islam. The best way of stopping terror attacks is by letting young palestinians and others live like any normal young human. NOT in refugee camps and koran-schools.
Your hostility towards the US and Israel -- in defense of Islam -- is revealing.
US foreign politics makes me react. And not only me. I feel that USA are incredible arrogant. Our culture here are very much americanized but not in all aspects. I dont like the idea that the rules dont apply to the strongest. As is always the case when america is involved. I support their war in afghanistan but that is about the only war america has gone into since WWII that I can morally support. The millions of dead civilians after american interventions are forgotten in history as "collateral damage" In that aspect I am hostile to USA but Im not a potentional threat. I dont support violence against americans at all if they dont invade other countries. I feel its my right to react this way and I also feel that USA should try to understand that the world has different views when it comes to that countrys role in world politics today and throughout history.

Yes, I feel I have to defend Islam. It has become normal to compare Islam in general with terrorism. I dont belive in that.
I dont support terrorism apart form a few exeptions in history and I can NEVER support terrorism for any religous reasons which of course is the case with many muslim terrorist organisations.

Go on with your campains against all palestinians and you WILL get isolated. There have been discussions of economic sanctions in the debate here now. Finally. Maybe in americas eyes collective punishment of palestinians are ok but not in most people eyes here. Sad to hear about the lift of the weapon embargo of course but Im sure you know by now that israels opinion in this conflict is not widely spread. If germany sells weapons to israel they have blood on their hands.

[Mediocrates]

The beauty of having self professed ethical and moral purity and neutrality is that you leave the really difficult decisions and their consequences for the rest of us to deal with.

[ibrodsky]

It hasnt vanished totally. As late as during the vietnam war an american priest said "god has given us the weapons, let us use them" Numerous guerillas use christianity as a reason for fighting.

You must have studied logic with Takeo. The fact that one priest said something is utterly meaningless in defining official US policy. We defend freedom of speech as a basic human right -- even stupid speech.

My point, which you can't deny, is that militant Islam has the support of tens of millions of Moslems. Extreme right-wing Christianity has the support of, at most, a few tens of thousands.

More important, the Islamic world does not believe in separation of church and state. You complain that Israeli democracy is imperfect, but the Arab world flatly rejects democracy as the tool of infidels. Thus, we see militant Islam reflected in many Islamic govts. Show me a govt that bows to extreme Christianity...

Who is responsible for young Muslims going to religious schools where they are taught fanaticism? Is Israel responsible for such schools in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan?

Actually, the way to stop Islamic fanaticism is to show that it will not be tolerated, and societies that breed, glorify, or excuse terrorists will pay a heavy price.

US foreign politics makes me react. And not only me. I feel that USA are incredible arrogant. Our culture here are very much americanized but not in all aspects. I dont like the idea that the rules dont apply to the strongest. As is always the case when america is involved. I support their war in afghanistan but that is about the only war america has gone into since WWII that I can morally support. The millions of dead civilians after american interventions are forgotten in history as "collateral damage" In that aspect I am hostile to USA but Im not a potentional threat. I dont support violence against americans at all if they dont invade other countries. I feel its my right to react this way and I also feel that USA should try to understand that the world has different views when it comes to that countrys role in world politics today and throughout history.

Actually, US policy is motivated by facts, reason, and practical necessity. There is no other country that is less emotional in formulating its policy than the US. Naturally, the WTC massacre drove the US closer to Israel. If we give a wink and nod to terrorists against Israel, then we will only fuel international terrorism by sending the message that we fight terrorism on a highly selective basis -- not out of principle and conviction.

Yes, I feel I have to defend Islam. It has become normal to compare Islam in general with terrorism. I dont belive in that.
I dont support terrorism apart form a few exeptions in history and I can NEVER support terrorism for any religous reasons which of course is the case with many muslim terrorist organisations.

That is a simplistic interpretation. President Bush was quick to say our quarrel is not with Islam, that true Islam is a "religion of peace," and the US has shown zero tolerance for violence against American Muslims.

What you refuse to recognize is that a sizable minority of Muslims have incorporated "martydom" and "suicide bombing" in their version of Islam. This, not all of Islam, is what we (the US and Israel) are fighting.

Go on with your campains against all palestinians and you WILL get isolated. There have been discussions of economic sanctions in the debate here now. Finally. Maybe in americas eyes collective punishment of palestinians are ok but not in most people eyes here. Sad to hear about the lift of the weapon embargo of course but Im sure you know by now that israels opinion in this conflict is not widely spread. If germany sells weapons to israel they have blood on their hands.

The idea that Israel is waging war against all Palestinians is false. Israel offered the Palestinians a state. The PA responded not with a counter offer, but by breaking all previous agreements. Even now, the US and Israel are committed to a negotiated settlement leading to a Palestinian state.

It is Arafat and his terrorist infrastructure that is for all-out war. Arafat hoped he could ignite a regional war, but he has failed. The rest of the Arab world knows that if they act on their evil designs to destroy Israel they will have to fight not just Israel, but the US.

The EU has just come out with a condemnation against rising anti-semiticism in Europe -- which they have clearly labelled as "racist."

Your dream that the "whole world" will unite against Israel is a misguided fantasy. The only people who believe that are followers of militant Islam.

[L@mplighterM]

The best way of stopping terror attacks is by letting young palestinians and others live like any normal young human. NOT in refugee camps
and koran-schools.

What excuse would you use for other Islam countries?

[Mediocrates]

Refugee camps surrounded by other Palestinians in Area A under Palestinian dominion and run and paid for by the UN. You've got to call it as it is. Palestinian refugees are the underclass of Palestinian society and the refugee issue is little more than the PA wishing to export their unemployed and unemployable.

[Northlander]

The beauty of having self professed ethical and moral purity and neutrality is that you leave the really difficult decisions and their consequences for the rest of us to deal with.

Nonense. Cant you see that SOME of the terrorism against you are just a consequence of your previous decisions?

I really belive that the average american has no idea at all what all this is about. You guys on this forum are not representative cause you are informed and thinks about these things but many people do not. therefore i think its time to really go out with the big picture and at least start to think in what position you have put yourselves in. Can you deny that alot of people in this world has legitimate reasons for hating america? Maybe they just hate your army or airforce that made them suffer but in their minds it is your nation as a whole that becomes the problem. That the american public always seems so united and non critical of their foreign politics only strenghtens the opinion.

Consequences of YOUR decisions remember that.
Im tired of having to explain that Im not american when I travel.
In your opinion neutral is the same as coward in my its the same as objective.

[Northlander]

You must have studied logic with Takeo. The fact that one priest said something is utterly meaningless in defining official US policy. We defend freedom of speech as a basic human right -- even stupid speech.
My point, which you can't deny, is that militant Islam has the support of tens of millions of Moslems. Extreme right-wing Christianity has the support of, at most, a few tens of thousands.
I dont deny it. But my opinion is that militant islam will vanish in the same way militant christianity did when the muslim world stops getting bombed or humiliated as in the case of the palestinians. Israel is just making things worse.
They way should be more of supporting the populations in respective country. There are resistence in Iran for example. Its possible to liberate iran from within. And that definitly goes for Iraq. Obviously it was possible in afghanistan. Its not Islam that is the problem its a numerous of other things. Leaders and economical problems and so on.

The logic I use with that statement is that the result is the same.
His statement and then half a million christian troops in buddist vietnam. We might not see it that way but the result is that. They have tens of millions supporters you say and we have tens of thousands. Still most wars are waged on arab soil NOT christian.
You are no logical. Historically AND today the arabs are not the aggressors.
And finally dont forget militant jews. How many supporters?
You do know that you are a militant jew? If you are jewish which I dont know. Correct me if Im wrong. But most guys here in the forum are militant, hence: militant jews.
Your dream that the "whole world" will unite against Israel is a misguided fantasy. The only people who believe that are followers of militant Islam.
Wrong. Im not a follower of militant islam. Not all of the world but most. In the end not even USA will support Israel. Yesterday in Oslo EU decided to give 1.2 billion dollars something to rebulid areas in WB. I mean, seriously!! Do you haev any idea how irritating it is for european taxpayers to pay for this and then soon again see it all destroyed by Israeil bulldozers. Searching for terrorists? Did they found any in all the houses and then decided to raze it just to prevent the terrorists to go back ot the same house? Whole areas are razed. Old ladies trying to stop bulldozers in front of their house. Some terrorists! Its nothing but harrasments and cleansing. And we pay and you destroy. Over and over again. Im telling you, people are getting tired of it.

[ibrodsky]

from Ha'aretz:

Swedish ex-pats demonstrate outside Swedish embassy in Tel Aviv, in protest at media coverage of Israel (Itim)

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Northlander


I dont deny it. But my opinion is that militant islam will vanish in the same way militant christianity did when the muslim world stops getting bombed or humiliated as in the case of the palestinians. Israel is just making things worse.
They way should be more of supporting the populations in respective country. There are resistence in Iran for example. Its possible to liberate iran from within. And that definitly goes for Iraq. Obviously it was possible in afghanistan. Its not Islam that is the problem its a numerous of other things. Leaders and economical problems and so on.

It is possible Iran will be liberated from within. And that would be preferrable, too. But the Iranian militant Islamic fascists are very involved in exporting terrorism. (Hezbollah has killed hundreds in south Lebanon and Latin America.) The rest of the world does not have to absorb such attacks until the Iranian people succeed in overthrowing the Ayatollahs -- which may never happen.

Islam isn't the problem. Militant Islam is the problem.

The logic I use with that statement is that the result is the same.
His statement and then half a million christian troops in buddist vietnam. We might not see it that way but the result is that. They have tens of millions supporters you say and we have tens of thousands. Still most wars are waged on arab soil NOT christian.
You are no logical. Historically AND today the arabs are not the aggressors.
And finally dont forget militant jews. How many supporters?
You do know that you are a militant jew? If you are jewish which I dont know. Correct me if Im wrong. But most guys here in the forum are militant, hence: militant jews.

I didn't say we have tens of thousands of supporters. I said that militant Islam is a very sizable movement, while the Christian extremism you complain about is tiny and insignificant.

Where do you get the sweeping statement that "most wars are waged on Arab soil"? Thanks to militant Islam, these are certainly current flashpoints. It would be more accurate to say that, historically, most Arab wars have been fought on foreign soil, as Islam has a history of conquest, extending well into southern and even central Europe.

When I refer to "militant Islam" I am not referring to Muslims who would fight to protect their homes and way of life. I am referring to Muslims who, like Osama bin Laden, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad, believe that the West must be destroyed.

If you define "militant Jews" as people who are determined to defend Israel then, yes, many of us (if not most) are militant Jews. If you are referring to Jews who espouse killing Arabs simply because they are Arabs, you will find that there are very few. And unlike the PA, which encourages militant Islam, Israel has outlawed such militant Jewish groups.

Wrong. Im not a follower of militant islam. Not all of the world but most. In the end not even USA will support Israel. Yesterday in Oslo EU decided to give 1.2 billion dollars something to rebulid areas in WB. I mean, seriously!! Do you haev any idea how irritating it is for european taxpayers to pay for this and then soon again see it all destroyed by Israeil bulldozers. Searching for terrorists? Did they found any in all the houses and then decided to raze it just to prevent the terrorists to go back ot the same house? Whole areas are razed. Old ladies trying to stop bulldozers in front of their house. Some terrorists! Its nothing but harrasments and cleansing. And we pay and you destroy. Over and over again. Im telling you, people are getting tired of it.

Perhaps the EU should be irritated that PA leaders take such aid and use it to 1) line their own pockets, and 2) fund terrorists rather than buy food, build schools, etc.

Europe proved in the former Yugoslavia that it cannot even police its own backyard without US help. Most of the threats coming out of the EU are simply designed to dissuade the Arab oil states from denying them oil.

Given the alarming rise in anti-semitic attacks in Europe, the EU is also under pressure to stop acting like Israel is the only guilty party.

There may be Israel-haters throughout the world, but the "whole world" isn't going to support sanctions against Israel. Because there are also people all over the world who know that militant Islam and terrorism against civilians are the real problem.

In case you haven't noticed, miltant Islamic suspects have been rounded up throughout not just the US and the (legally captured) Palestinian territories, but Europe as well.

[thrud]

Originally posted by Northlander


In the end not even [the] USA will support Israel. Yesterday in Oslo [the] EU decided to give 1.2 billion dollars [...] to [rebuild] areas in [the] WB. I mean, seriously!! Do you [have] any idea how irritating it is for [European] taxpayers to pay for this and then soon again see it all destroyed by [Israel] bulldozers. Searching for terrorists? Did they [find] any in all the houses and then decided to raze it just to prevent the terrorists [from going] back [to] the same house? Whole areas [were] razed. Old ladies [were] trying to stop bulldozers in front of their house[s]. Some terrorists! Its nothing but [harassment] and cleansing. And we pay and you destroy. Over and over again. [I¡¯m] telling you, people are getting tired of it.

In this section of your rant I see two points:

1) The US will eventually cut off Israel.

2) You are a financial conservative tired of taxes and so blame the Jews.

To discuss point one, I think the only way for the US to drop support for Israel is if Sharon (or any Israeli leader) went completely insane and ordered a missile attack on an Islamic holy site. I think no one in their right mind would support Israel then (including most of the Jews in Israel), but I do not think that will ever happen. It would be far worse than what the Taliban did in Afghanistan. I think Israel will continue to live with US support (monetary, emotional, and political) for many generations.

Part two is equally stupid. I think you can blame your high taxes on living in a perpetual welfare state. Stop supporting socialism, close down all the redundant programs, and put everyone to work. Do these things and I promise you that your taxes will go down. Do not blame the Jews for European financial failings! I think point two is an internal problem and does not have anything to do with international support.

If American conservatives can shell out the green to defend Israel, then it must not be that expensive or it must be very important (money demands legitimacy).

Grow up bud. Blame yourself for your own failings and not anyone else.

[Mediocrates]

The EU pays about $415 million (US) per year to manage the Palestinian refugee camps inside of Palestinian controlled areas of the West Bank. I can appreciate their frustration with what amounts to basically flushing money down the loo. So here's what you should do - hold the PA accountable for the money you send them, get an audit, have them make a budget and make them tell you where they spent the money. Like most 'aid' projects there are probably 500 under junior assistant deputy vice ministers of nothing in particular. Figure the usual 25% baksheesh (hey we're Arabs you know - it's our culture!!). And if it irks you that terrorists sometimes have their houses blown up, maybe you could ask them nicely to stop shooting long enough to put up a few homes.

And then you can roll over, go back to sleep and be grateful that unwashed horde isn't burning down your neighborhood in the name of freedom and peace.

[Vic]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
So where are all of those "good" Palestinians?
The most recent poll shows that 85% of Palestinian Arabs support terrorism.

The 15% who don't?

[Batman]

If there are any Arabs who would dare to think that terrorism is not such a great Islamic idea and think independently of what the Islamic religious leaders are preaching straight form Quaran to kill the "infidels" (non Moslems,) then nontheless they could be slightly influenced by the gory sights of collaborators being savagely killed. See:

http://www.rootofevil.com/tyranny/default.php?image=3


It's common for the tyrannical governments of the Arab nations to crack down on any disagreeing voices. However, it's almost amazing that instead of the Arab people rising against this, there seems to be a need to join this dictatorial and savage mentality.
Even in the more 'moderate' countries the Arab people have become more radicalized.

Why? Why not rebel against the true tyrants, the Arab governments? Why has the population become anti-west tyrants? Why do they follow their abusive leaders' manipulations of the masses? Is it really fear? Is it convenient? Is it a culture of death? Or has it always been the case and only now it's becoming apparant?

[elke]

Moderate is as moderate does. Propaganda is a very powerful weapon.

In effect, I think that the situation in the Arab world today is reminiscent of Germany in 1930's. Abject poverty, hopelessness, feelings of humiliation, perception of powerlessness and of being wronged. The leadership in the Arab world, like the Nazis before them, do not need to look far for the scapegoat for these misfortunes. Conveniently located at locations near you, - Jews, of course. Except, unlike in 1930's Germany, these Jews are actually armed and capable of successfully defending themselves.

The "moderate" Arab regimes, i.e. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, - are quick to suppress any activists that work to dislodge them, so that a "normal" Arab has no desire to do anything anti-government. The only ones that try anymore are the flakes like Islamic Jihad. Or so it seems. It may not be quite as simple as that. Do we really know all about the people tortured and killed in Egypt, for instance, under the guise of "Islamic militants"? It may be worth investigating...

[Northlander]

The leadership in the Arab world, like the Nazis before them, do not need to look far for the scapegoat for these misfortunes. Conveniently located at locations near you, - Jews, of course.

Bla bla bla. Always those arguments about everybody hating jews. Even though alot of arabs want to get rid of israel as a state there are numerous reasons for that other than the fact that most israelis happens to be jews. Had Israel been full of catholics and that country acted the same way as Israel have done, I can easily imagine that it would have been attacked too. I do think many arabs feel USA have much to answer for when it comes to their regimes and poverty which of course is true.
successfully defending themselves.
well, I dont agree to that. Is israel safe? In the same way as european countries or many asian countries? Even as USA are apart from 9-11? Israel are safe from being invaded yes, but still israelis dies in attacks. Civilians and soldiers. Israels politics have not solved anything. The more effort they put on a military sollution the more israelis will die. Its as simple as that. Start using diplomacy. I could put it this way: someone that is depending on another person is in a weak position. Without USA, Israel would be in a load of trouble. Its better to strengthen the positon in the region and prepair for a situaton when USA is backing of. The absolute most necessary step to take is to let a palestine state be created.

[Mediocrates]

"Bla bla bla. Always those arguments about everybody hating jews. Even though alot of arabs want to get rid of israel as a state there are numerous reasons for that other than the fact that most israelis happens to be jews. Had Israel been full of catholics and that country acted the same way as Israel have done, I can easily imagine that it would have been attacked too."


You're almost there - - the correct interpretation is that anything not Arab Muslim is anathema to them therefore is intolerable and must be eradicated. There are two state condtions in Arab culture and politics:

1) 100% hegemony and purity
2) Warfare

"Israels politics have not solved anything. The more effort they put on a military sollution the more israelis will die. Its as simple as that. Start using diplomacy. I could put it this way: someone that is depending on another person is in a weak position. "

Which reinforces the same point. All the Israelis need to fear is being Israeli, yes? If only they were just another Arab state the Arabs would be so much happier.

[elke]

"Bla Bla Bla" is a powerful argument, no contest. Blood in the Hamantashen is also a rational argument.

I did not say that Israel was safe. I said that Jews are successfully defending themselves in Israel - meaning that Israel is still there, against all odds.

Coexistance and cooperation in the region would indeed be preferable for all sides, I am sure. However, given the reality of the situation, it's not likely to happen until deeds, and not just words to that effect, are put into practice.

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by Northlander


Israels politics have not solved anything. The more effort they put on a military sollution the more israelis will die. Its as simple as that. Start using diplomacy. I could put it this way: someone that is depending on another person is in a weak position. Without USA, Israel would be in a load of trouble. Its better to strengthen the positon in the region and prepair for a situaton when USA is backing of. The absolute most necessary step to take is to let a palestine state be created.

You're right. Israels policy of appeasement since Oslo has only made the situation worse. Israel's authorizing the PA only created a protected pocket where terrorists nests could fester and grow. Arafat was too weak or incompetent to really lead and root out the extremists and terrorists, his part of the bargain. Instead, he chose to ally himself with the terrorists he was supposed to eliminate or control.

Let's go back in time. What if right after Oslo, Arafat had gone around giving speeches to rally his people in support of the plan and at the same time used his newly armed-by-the-west security forces to eliminate the terrorists or put them in prison. At that point, if it were too great a task he could have asked for and gotten plenty of help from the US and Europe. If that request were made for the sole purpose of cleaning out the terrorists, I'm certain Israel would have gone along. The PA could have consolidated control, established a solid credible government to continue the peace process. We would probably have a PA state today.

But he chose terrorism instead. And now his PA, which could have formed the foundation of a stable Palestinian State, is merely an extention or even competitor of the other terrorist organizations. And you expect Israel to hand the keys to her security over to that?

[Northlander]

I just saw a documentary about the Israeli peacemovement.
Jews! Relious people. Educated and well informed. Soldiers or ex soldiers. All kinds of people. They all used the same arguements that I or Takeo and others have been using here. Still you just call us anti-semits. I guess it must be harder to call an israeli that.
They were not typical left-wing activists either. Some really ordinary israelis and some really patriotic. Some soldiers refused to serve on occupied territory but still wanted to DEFEND israel. That is a morally strong statment and something that could solve alot of problems for israel and jews all over. They testified about what crimes they was forced to do in the army and as always it takes guts to say no. What is clear is that they see the conflict as you fail to do, NOT as solely an israeli security issue.
If we stop all this islamistic nonsense for a while and concentrate on the conflict and on israel instead. First, the occupation is ILLEGAL. War crimes are illegal!!. You say that the law dont apply to Israel cause the security is more important and that you can belive but it doesnt make it morally right OR legally right. Do you guys belive in the american legalsystem? Do you belive that it serves it purpose? Just because a murderer doesnt feel the law is in his liking, doesnt give him the moral right to kill anybody does it? He can give himself moral right fine, but he should still be punished, right? If you dont belive that you must belive in total anarchy. Its not any better just because the palestine terrorists uses just as morally or legally wrong methods.
All warcrimes commited by Israelis should be dealt with. By israeli courts or, since that is not happening, international courts.
The situation in Jerusalem is nothing but apartheid.
The arabs in israel doesnt have the same rights as jews.
Your arguements about the rest of the arabworld are not relevant. Equal rights for ALL inhabitants. Equal rights!! To hear especially americans defending this is sad. How can you guys morally defend that a group, based on race and religion, dont have the same rights as other in a democratic state? Is it democratic? No matter what security reasons its morally wrong and its ALL israelis responsibilty. All those indifferent are guilty by not objecting. This is what happend in germany before the war. People knew what was starting to happen and no one cared. Instead they came up with historical reasons, economical, whatever! Torture was even legal in Israel up to recently.
All those crimes against humanity just for the security. Is it morally right? No its not. Is is working? No its not.
When the whites in s.africa finally gave in and stopped with their crimes on the black population they had been screaming about that their lifestyle would end. The end for s.africa as a nation. What happened? Nothing. What harm would come for israel to comply to international laws? To stop warcrimes? To stop this rasist treatment of arabs in israel? Morally there are a few bad guys here. The suicide bombers that taget innocent civilians. Also without any doubt some people within PA. The israeli government and some people within IDF. AND all those israelis well informed enough to know what their nation are really doing. Something that no other western country would get away with. Its incredible that so many israelis have fallen for this big lie. Security for israel as a state!
Who will invade you? Syria or iraq? What bad would happen if arabs in Israel had the same opportunities as jews? Stop whining and just do what has to be done. And remember that everybody that knew what was going on and didnt do anything are all guilty.

As an israeli from Tel Aviv said "200 000 people are determining the future for 6 million. What I would like to see is an israeli leader that is not wondering HOW we should leave the settlements, but just told the settlers which day we are withdrawing the army."

Personally I think the oslo plan is laughable. 70 percent of WB to israel and the autonomous palestinian areas separeted. With israeli securitycontrolled areas between. I dont think anyone can claim that is fair.

[Northlander]

I forgot the sollution to the conflict.
Give the palestinians something to live for and you will finally see an end to those bombings. Continue to terrorise them and you will not. The ONLY sollution to prevent terrorism.

If Israel continues like this they will have to kill every single palestinian alive. Everyone. If not, always some will feel their only choice is to use terrorism. Stop this state terrorism from Israel and the counter terrorism will stop too.
Do you guys here understand the difference between state terrorism and the terrorism conducted by small groups of desperate extremists?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
They were not typical left-wing activists either. Some really ordinary israelis and some really patriotic.[QUOTE]
Curiosity, what is a typical left-wing activist like?

[QUOTE]Some soldiers refused to serve on occupied territory but still wanted to DEFEND israel. That is a morally strong statment and something that could solve alot of problems for israel and jews all over.
By any chance, did your Northlander TV station explain that these army sabateurs and cowards account for less than one-thousandth of a percent? Did your TV station report that there has been a huge increase in the number of Israeli soldiers volunteering for elite-combat service against the Palestinian centers of terrorism?

Probably not. After all, we are talking about Europe, where every night, the TV news station interviews the extreme minority of Israelis and deceives its audience into believing that those extremists and traitors actually represent the Israeli population. That is of course false, but very popular indeed with the local Arab and neo-Stalinist audience.

It would be as if American TV decided to interview a rapist in a Swedish jail and then when the rapist blames his childhood abuse, then the American TV station presents that most Swedish citizens were abused as children. Of course this is total nonesense, just like the show you are referring to -- the tiny minority falsely presented as a picture of typical society.

The majority of Israeli society, which apparently doesn't interest European TV at all, will say that they support a Palestinian state but not while terrorism is going on. And this message of peace and reasonableness is what your TV tries to conceal from its viewers.

Its not any better just because the palestine terrorists uses just as morally or legally wrong methods.
No, but how much time did your TV show devote to Palestinian crimes against humanity? Come on, please enlighten us on this point, before giving us your moral superiority attitude.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Northlander
Do you guys here understand the difference between state terrorism and the terrorism conducted by small groups of desperate extremists?

State terrorism in Israel, WB, and GS is ordered and orchestrated by Arafat as a matter of fact he’s the purveyor of ALL terrorism in that region.

[Northlander]

Every single terrorist attack in israel are reported here belive me.
We sees it and condemn it. But didnt you read my post?
I didnt say anything about the numbers of israelis that are against the occupation and colonial politics. As far as I know sharon has large support. My point is that since Israel clearly has a government that does not care the slightest about human rights at least the soldiers should show civilcourage. Cowards? A real man doesnt need to to prove himself in an occupation army. IDF stands for "defence" right? It should be in my oppinion.
The large support for Israels politics in Israel doesnt make it legal you know. It only shows that your propaganda machine has succeded in fooling people that the occupation is there to protect israel. Of cource it is not. Everyone that is supporting these politics will by the afterworld be judged as cowards and as guilty as the perpetutors. I think most people understand by now that its Israels humiliation and crimes against the palestinians that are causing this terrorism. Even people in israel I think, but its easier to just go on and pretend its for a juste cause. Well, its not. Its ethnic cleansing and state terrorism and no excuse is good enough. More israelis should refuse to take part.
Elite combat service in Israel are probably the most pathetic thing Ive ever heard of. What special training did they get to shoot stonethrowers. Come on! They didnt even have the guts to disarm the traps in Jenin without using palestinian children for it.
What combat? Do you call anything of that that has happened recently for combat????? From time to time palestinian police officers get involved in shooting with . Maybe with a little fantasy you could get that to real combat. Attackhelicopters and tanks against ak47s. Real heroes. Just leave the occupied territories for starters and then you could at least have the moral right to object to terrorists. Where the germans right to call the french resistence terrorists? Get real. OCCUPATION!!! Do you understand the word? "The occupation of poland" The occupation of kuweit" Stop it THEN expect the terror to end.

USAs war against terrorism has not helped them the slightest and their resources are somewhat bigger than israels. did they find osama? no. Are they even more threatend now. probably.
In some occasions force is necessary but Israel cant even understand the most basic thing of all, that these guys are not blowing up themselves for fun. Take them out who does, fine, but
Israel has created this problem by expanding settlements, occupy....etc. Its BS that all this is to find terrorists. It doesnt work!! Preventing pregnant women from getting medical aid is not helping. Isolate whole villages and preventing them from reaching their jobs doesnt help. I saw a document that IDF had confiscated 22 fishing boats in Gaza because the enginesize was against "regional regulations" 22 families that lives from fishing can fish. What happens? Come on here. a little fantasy. At best what happens with those families? Who will they hate for not getting food. They know just as you and I know that its not about war against terror. Those "regional regulations" are made up. Its nothing else than a planned long term method of terrorising them in every different situation thinkable. To get them to leave at best or just stop resisting at second best. What probably happens is that they learn to hate and when the children of the families get big enough to understand how unfair it really was and how little they can do to then Israel has created a problem. It doesnt take much more. How much evidence does the public opinion in israel need to see that this kind of hatred doesnt just pop up by itself? Not one single country in the west does anything near what israel does. Have you even thought of why?
Do you think britain does anything on n.ireland that can even slightly remind of that IDF does? Still even britain can never be totally sure that a bomb wont go of. They didnt solve their problems only by fighting IRA. Also their occupation can hardly be called an occupation anymore since a majority of n.irelands population want to be a part of britain.

[Northlander]

State terrorism in Israel, WB, and GS is ordered and orchestrated by Arafat as a matter of fact he’s the purveyor of ALL terrorism in that region.

When IDF makes a "likvidation" its a political murder.
That must be terrorism cause when lets say RAF in germany or red brigades in italy makes it, its called terrorism.
IDF are controlled by the Israeli state. Hence "state terrorism".
Do you deny Israel kills people within PA? Do you deny they have ever done that? Do you deny they have used explosives to kill palestinians. that is the backbone of all terrorism. Long range striking capability if you like. Without B52s. Kill without being there. The whole terrorist arsenal has and is being used by israel too. Whats wrong with you guys? Do you actually dont know Israel uses this methods?
By the way israeli terrorists killed my fellow countryman Folke Bernadotte when he was working for UN in the 40th.
That was not state terrorism but the same kind of terrorism you hate so much now.

[Mediocrates]

Just because you can't determine a consequential event called Victory doesn't mean you don't have success. Police forces don't simply eradicate all crime and then go home, do they? It's called maintaining a stasis against the forces that want to kill you.

[L@mplighterM]

Bold by Northlander

Every single terrorist attack in israel are reported here belive me.
We sees it and condemn it. But didnt you read my post?
I didnt say anything about the numbers of israelis that are against the occupation and colonial politics. As far as I know sharon has large support. My point is that since Israel clearly has a government that does not care the slightest about human rights at least the soldiers should show civilcourage. Cowards? A real man doesnt need to to prove himself in an occupation army. IDF stands for "defence" right? It should be in my oppinion.
The large support for Israels politics in Israel doesnt make it legal you know. It only shows that your propaganda machine has succeded in fooling people that the occupation is there to protect israel. Of cource it is not. Everyone that is supporting these politics will by the afterworld be judged as cowards and as guilty as the perpetutors. I think most people understand by now that its Israels humiliation and crimes against the palestinians that are causing this terrorism. Even people in israel I think, but its easier to just go on and pretend its for a juste cause. Well, its not. Its ethnic cleansing and state terrorism and no excuse is good enough. More israelis should refuse to take part.
Elite combat service in Israel are probably the most pathetic thing Ive ever heard of. What special training did they get to shoot stonethrowers. Come on! They didnt even have the guts to disarm the traps in Jenin without using palestinian children for it.
What combat? Do you call anything of that that has happened recently for combat????? From time to time palestinian police officers get involved in shooting with . Maybe with a little fantasy you could get that to real combat. Attackhelicopters and tanks against ak47s. Real heroes. Just leave the occupied territories for starters and then you could at least have the moral right to object to terrorists. Where the germans right to call the french resistence terrorists? Get real. OCCUPATION!!! Do you understand the word? "The occupation of poland" The occupation of kuweit" Stop it THEN expect the terror to end.
Tune to the white mans TV Station when you watch Svensk TV from now on. Don’t pay to much attention to the Arab station. As always your posts contain Arab propaganda and fabricated nonsense. I know exactly what is happening in the Scandinavian countries and the day is coming when the electorate isn’t putting up with you people’s nonsense, you’ve gone too far and they are putting their feet down.
I don’t think that you even have an elementary understanding of the conflict in the ME. Children to disarm traps LOL , what utter nonsense. I guess you’re one of the NUTS that think Jews drink children’s blood.



USAs war against terrorism has not helped them the slightest and their resources are somewhat bigger than israels. did they find osama? no. Are they even more threatend now. probably.
In some occasions force is necessary but Israel cant even understand the most basic thing of all, that these guys are not blowing up themselves for fun. Take them out who does, fine, but
Israel has created this problem by expanding settlements, occupy....etc. Its BS that all this is to find terrorists. It doesnt work!! Preventing pregnant women from getting medical aid is not helping. Isolate whole villages and preventing them from reaching their jobs doesnt help. I saw a document that IDF had confiscated 22 fishing boats in Gaza because the enginesize was against "regional regulations" 22 families that lives from fishing can fish. What happens? Come on here. a little fantasy. At best what happens with those families? Who will they hate for not getting food. They know just as you and I know that its not about war against terror. Those "regional regulations" are made up. Its nothing else than a planned long term method of terrorising them in every different situation thinkable. To get them to leave at best or just stop resisting at second best. What probably happens is that they learn to hate and when the children of the families get big enough to understand how unfair it really was and how little they can do to then Israel has created a problem. It doesnt take much more. How much evidence does the public opinion in israel need to see that this kind of hatred doesnt just pop up by itself? Not one single country in the west does anything near what israel does. Have you even thought of why?
Do you think britain does anything on n.ireland that can even slightly remind of that IDF does? Still even britain can never be totally sure that a bomb wont go of. They didnt solve their problems only by fighting IRA. Also their occupation can hardly be called an occupation anymore since a majority of n.irelands population want to be a part of britain.


If Palestinians cant use their motorboats I guess they better learn to row. Arafat needs to loose some weight in any case. Boats are used to transport weapons and several been destroyed. Instead of posting your Arab propaganda and wasting your time get a spare time job so you can buy some fishing poles to send to your brethren.
No these guys are not blowing themselves up for fun they do so to make $ 30,400.00 US for their daddies and mommies. They also believe there’s 72 ugly virgins wrapped in old blankets or potato sacks waiting for them in hell.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
When IDF makes a "likvidation" its a political murder.
That must be terrorism cause when lets say RAF in germany or red brigades in italy makes it, its called terrorism.
Naturally, what you have left out is who exactly is being liquidated. In Israel's case, they liquidate armed Palestinian terrorists, who are directly involved in perpetrating terrorism against Israeli civilians, and that is considered a military operation in self-defense.

On the other hand, when the Palestinians strap explosives to their bodies, after packing the explosives with nails, and go into a restaurant or a shopping mall and mass murder Israeli civilians, then that is terrorism.

And, similarly, when the RAF or other British troops shoot and kill al Qaeda and Taliban members in Afghanistan, then that is a military operation, too, even if there are unintended innocent afghanis killed in the process.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
Everyone that is supporting these politics will by the afterworld be judged as cowards and as guilty as the perpetutors.[/B]No, my bet is that the European oil-slave governments and deluded Euro-Leftists will be judged for their role in financing and providing political cover for the Palestinian mass murderers. I think that Nuremberg would be a perfect place to put the European supporters of Arab terrorism on trial.

I think most people understand by now that its Israels humiliation and crimes against the palestinians that are causing this terrorism.
Actually, most people I know understand very well, especially after 9-11 that it is Arab terrorism that is the global problem and that the only solution to Arab terrorism is an all-out war to destroy the terrorist infrastructure. Even most Palestinians understand by now that their murderous government's crimes against humanity have brought national disaster on them. Maybe soon even the Europeans will awaken from their terror-supporting delusion.


What special training did they get to shoot stonethrowers. More fantasies of tanks vs. stonethrowers, ignoring of course the handgrenades, anti-tank missiles & missile factories, RPGs, Kalachnikovs, TNT, C-4, pipe-bombs, and land-mines used by the Palestinians against unarmed Israeli civilians and against the IDF.

But all this Palestinian arsenal doesn't fit neatly into the "stones vs. tanks" fantasy. Too bad, Northlander, because it is the truth that scares you most. If you admit the truth, then you have no more cause to fight and what would your life be like then?

USAs war against terrorism has not helped them the slightest and their resources are somewhat bigger than israels. did they find osama? no. Are they even more threatend now. probably.
You are wrong about that. I am sorry that al Jazeera presented it that way to you. In fact, there is now no Islamic government that will knowingly allow al Qaeda to operate, because they learned the Taliban lesson.

But on the other hand, the U.S. is indeed failing to finish the war against Islamic terrorism, because the U.S. has not yet confronted the rest of the sources of Islamic terrorism like Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian Authority. Until the U.S. confronts those terrorism-sponsoring countries, you are correct, that Islamic terrorism will live on.

[Northlander]

Tune to the white mans TV Station when you watch Svensk TV from now on. Don’t pay to much attention to the Arab station.
I dont have any arab station sorry. Never had. Obviously a PA TV station wouldnt be anymore trustworthy than an israeli. Its all about the truth. We all know that the palestininan terror is hard and cruel. No one in europe is denying that. Its never a discussion about if it exist or not. however when it comes to Israeli terror that is clear and obvious for every big western newspaper and TV station, WESTERN, not arab, then people start denying things. Its like in germany like I told you. Dont pretend you didnt know what was going on!! As Ive been told from friends in USA their newsreport are somewhat twisted but things have improved lately.Still if you speak to many americans people dont even know that PA doesnt have a regular army. They think its a war etc. they dont know about the occupation etc. There its more a terrorsit debate when it should be a debate about a people denyed of all and a strong israel. the journalist traditions in many countries in europe is strong and independent. They are not questionable in many cases as you guys dont know.
Boats are used to transport weapons and several been destroyed. Instead of posting your Arab propaganda and wasting your time get a spare time job so you can buy some fishing poles to send to your brethren.
This was actually a hebrew document and an israeli translated so... It was fishingboats. Search them, take the weapons and put the terrorists or smugglers on trail. Have you heard about the democratic ways of solving things? Like all armies and policeforces in west do? do you want a crashcourse in how to "not taking away everything for innocent people and leave them to starve and therefore creating suffering and resistance"?
In Israel's case, they liquidate armed Palestinian terrorists, who are directly involved in perpetrating terrorism against Israeli civilians,
directly involved??? wake up!!! Just because IDF succesfully kills a few real terrorists doesnt mean every target is legitimate. If you start operations like that it will eventually turn or yourself.
You seize to be a democratic functioning country and becomes a military controled country when everything is solved without ant regards to law and order. what guarantee that the same organisations that murders for political reasons against terrorists doesnt change objectives. Maybe the next time they start target other people not wanted for israel. Like the waffen SS compared to more specialised SS units. The confict with the palestinians are dirty. From both sides. By denying that israel is fighting a dirty war you are just being naive and ignorant. I have on the other hand heard people knowing exactly what IDF and mossad etc does but still defending what they do cause it benefits israel. It least I can repspect that opinion cause its not stupid and ignorant but total denial??? in a democratic state there has to be a trail before execution. It is just so. If you dont like it go join a club for fascist regimes elsewhere but dont think you will ever get treated like a normal western country. Someone needs to take the whole Israeli goverment and educate them in basic democratic rules. Courts!! Laws!! Evidence!!
And, similarly, when the RAF or other British troops shoot and kill al Qaeda and Taliban members in Afghanistan, then that is a military operation, too, even if there are unintended innocent afghanis killed in the process.
You cant be serious to compare the US/british operations in afghanistan to IDFs on WB? When you surround a palestine village and prevents medical personel from going in and people from going out its nothing else than cold blooded murder. Old ill people are not terrorists and should not be detained. Pregnant women are not terrorsits! Arab doctors should not even be capt out but when IDF officers refuse israeli doctors?? That is not military operations against terrorist networks. Its a brutal act against civilians aimed at terrorising them and to humiliate them.
Its not PAs incompetence that kills those people in need of medical aid its IDF. Its wrong,wrong,wrong no matter how many suicide bombs that goes of in Israel. and thats just one example of Israeli murders on civilans. then we have numerous shootings of women and children. Dont compare it to US/british soldiers in afghanistan. they dont execute people on the spot for being neigbours to al-qaeda soldiers. Or for being family. Have you even seen that they have prisoners on guatanamo? trails!! justice!! controlled courts with full international cooperation.
the difference even between USA and Israel is so big you shouldnt mention them in the same sentence. And I am usually very critical against US ways of solving military issues.
No, my bet is that the European oil-slave governments and deluded Euro-Leftists will be judged for their role in financing and providing political cover for the Palestinian mass murderers. I think that Nuremberg would be a perfect place to put the European supporters of Arab terrorism on trial.
We are not supporting arab terrorism. We are against Israels state terrorism AND arab.
Actually, most people I know understand very well, especially after 9-11 that it is Arab terrorism that is the global problem and that the only solution to Arab terrorism is an all-out war to destroy the terrorist infrastructure.
That is nonsense. Terrorism itself is based on the lack of infrastructure. Its not possible to destroy the terrorist infrastructure. All military experts know this very well. For every al-qaeda fighter prisoned or killed in afghanistan they created a new one. Exept from Iran iraq or afghanistan there are not many more countries you can invade like that. If lets say al-qaeda have a few members in sweden, its not impossible. they dont need much to live as ordinary people in the states or in europe. If USA bombs sweden and goes in with troops in sweden with the excuse of "war against terrorism" we would still see it as a invasion and we would be forced to strike against USA as well.
You cant invade every nation in the world where there might be a terrorist cell that are making explosives or planning attacks. Its just not possible. This is not possible. So if military experts knows all this why are they doing it? Well, that is interesting debate but I would say that president bush has mainly other political reasons
USA will never ever again be safe from terrorist attacks. Thats the fact. All it takes is motivation and you or I or anyone could cause total havoc. To fight terrorism all means BUT the military are effective. You will understand what I mean in 30 years when this war against terror have failed and 9-11 is just one of many attacks. I hope Im wrong and that Israel and USA have solved its problems by other means but as it seems now they will continue to do it this way. I think al-qaeda will have to reform their organisation somewhat. That is a result from afghanistan. Its not necessary with kalashnikovs in training camps anymore. Knowledge in english and university degrees in chemistry is more effective. they dont need to live in a cave to plan attacks, they will probably figure that out soon after the american attacks and then they will plan it from suburbs to london or in new jersey.
The motivation has to been taken away not the means. My little brother has the means to use terrorism. What infrastructure are you talking about? Money? Then bombs wont help.
More fantasies of tanks vs. stonethrowers, ignoring of course the handgrenade, anti-tank missiles & missile factories, RPGs, Kalachnikovs, TNT, C-4, pipe-bombs, and land-mines used by the Palestinians against unarmed Israeli civilians and against the IDF. When they use it against civilians its a warcrime and they should be punished. But as long as Israel are occupying
their territory they have the right to attack the occupation army.
Its called resistance. Why dont you just stop the occupation if you dont like it?

[Mediocrates]

no matter how many suicide bombs that goes of in Israel.

no matter how many suicide bombs that goes of in Israel.

no matter how many suicide bombs that goes of in Israel.

no matter how many suicide bombs that goes of in Israel.


---do I have it right yet?, that's pretty much the predicate of everything you've ever written on this board. An unlimited number of Jews have to die to make sure your lights stay on at night and your internet connection works.

[elke]

Terrorism itself is based on the lack of infrastructure. Its not possible to destroy the terrorist infrastructure.

Are you trying to say that the suicide bomb belts, AK47's, and mortars are easily available at a location near you? Are you trying to say that young people, on their own, just one day decide to commit suicide while killing as many as they can of other young (or elderly)?

In fact, this is baloney: a couple of days ago, some young boys decided to attack an Israeli check point - all by their lonesome; and Hamas got up in arms about it. I will a link for that article for you a little later.

The terrorist infrastructure consists, among other things, of the following:
1. Bomb factories (like the one found in Bethlehem, near the Church of the Nativity, etal)
2. Arms caches (like the ones found in Jenin refugee camp, etal)
3. Secret routes of arms smugglers (like the tunnel in Gaza, etal)
4. All of the above hiding in the civilian population centers.

THAT's terrorist infrastructure.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
No, my bet is that the European oil-slave governments and deluded Euro-Leftists will be judged for their role in financing and providing political cover for the Palestinian mass murderers.
NewsGuy, sorry, you are wrong. Anti-Israel tendencies are not limited to the Left in Europe. There are hardly reliable statistics on that, but just look at Jacques Chirac...
My guess is that such sentiments (and with them direct or indirect support for Palestinian terrorism) are spread more or less evenly throughout the political landscape.
The economic side of it - it's not just oil. It's a large export volume, investments on both sides etc. The currently most prominent anti-Israel politician in Germany is head of the Liberal Party and as such not exactly a leftist. On the other side he happens to head a "German-Arabic society" and is as rumors go, he is greatly involved in business dealings with Arab countries, acting as their semi-official lobbyist.

[Pathfinder]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Northlander

All military experts know this very well. For every al-qaeda fighter prisoned or killed in afghanistan they created a new one.

Baloney!

If USA bombs sweden and goes in with troops in sweden with the excuse of "war against terrorism" we would still see it as a invasion and we would be forced to strike against USA as well.

If the Swedish govt. is supporting, harboring, or financing terrorism, so be it.

You cant invade every nation in the world where there might be a terrorist cell that are making explosives or planning attacks. Its just not possible.

Thats not the point. Only nations that clearly support Terrorism must fear US or Allied action.

To fight terrorism all means BUT the military are effective. You will understand what I mean in 30 years when this war against terror have failed and 9-11 is just one of many attacks. I hope Im wrong and that Israel and USA have solved its problems by other means but as it seems now they will continue to do it this way.

Well..., lets see, if terrorism is so effective what has it accomplished in the last 30 years? Why would the next 30 be different?

I think al-qaeda will have to reform their organisation somewhat. That is a result from afghanistan. Its not necessary with kalashnikovs in training camps anymore. Knowledge in english and university degrees in chemistry is more effective. they dont need to live in a cave to plan attacks, they will probably figure that out soon after the american attacks and then they will plan it from suburbs to london or in new jersey.
The motivation has to been taken away not the means. My little brother has the means to use terrorism.

Northlander, you have a hidden talent. Sounds like you might apply for the job writing the next jihad manual. After all if you have been watching the news Al Quaeda has lots of current openings in their leadership ranks. Same with Al aksa etc.

But as long as Israel are occupying
their territory they have the right to attack the occupation army.
Its called resistance.

If they are freedom fighters as you say, this is their only morally justifiable action. Wow, combatants against combatants, what a concept!
:)

[Northlander]

---do I have it right yet?, that's pretty much the predicate of everything you've ever written on this board. An unlimited number of Jews have to die to make sure your lights stay on at night and your internet connection works.
my god you are stupid. How many suicide bombs went of before the occupation? Sharon chooses to let more israelis die by not ending the occupation. And politicians before him.

And elke. I know what they are aiming for. But all it takes really is to have a decent knowledge in chemistry and of you go. Any university has the components. Even if USA bombs all islamic countries they will take out revenge on the western population with new attacks. All it took for 9-11 was a couple of razors.
Cant you really see that it is impossible to prevent attacks if the terrorists are determined enough. And in these days with more and more powerful weapons. Israel is basically playing a risky game with all its inhabitants by sticking to this illegal occupation.
Just end it and alot of your problems will dissapear.
If the Swedish govt. is supporting, harboring, or financing terrorism, so be it.
But no state can guarantee that terrorists are not hiding and living there. For osama personally its hard maybe but I would guess some of his groups are living in europe and even in the states. How will USA solve that with military operations?
By the way, according to you guys PA are nothing than terrorists and we in europe are donation huge amounts of money to them so maybe we are supporting terrorists. You are welcome to bomb us any time you like.
Thats not the point. Only nations that clearly support Terrorism must fear US or Allied action
hahaha thats a new one. All countries invaded and bombed by usa have been harboring terrorists, yeah right.
Well..., lets see, if terrorism is so effective what has it accomplished in the last 30 years? Why would the next 30 be different?
You have to look for the reasons why they are doing it. Its obviously desperate. A more peaceful country than USA would not get an attack as 9-11. Russia gets them too and its no wonder. Britain got them during the occupation of n.ireland.
Israel gets them. The only countries that gets this kind of attacks are countries with a colonial history or that are still occupying or terrorising another people.
If they are freedom fighters as you say, this is their only morally justifiable action. Wow, combatants against combatants, what a concept!
As I said I belive they should be punished when they target civilians. But by democratic means. Not killed without trails etc.
But they can rotten slowly in prison as far as im concerned. Thats not the question. We are all against terror on civilians. But just as convinced you are that USA had the right to defend against the japanese after Pearl Harbour, as convinced am I that the palestinians has the right to defend against Israeli occupation. Morally its no different than when the americans launched the airraid on Tokyo soon after PH killing civilians. It was aimed at lowering the boosted japanese moral and showing that this war was going to be costly for them too. Wrong? Yes I think these kinds of bombings of civilians are wrong. As I think the bombs inside israel are wrong. But they still have the right in my opinion to target every single israeli soldier on occupied territory. If you dont want that to happen just pull out. Pull back you army. Its easy really. Do you want all this to end? Just end the occupation.

[Mediocrates]

So all war of any kind is justified against any suffciently large and-or mismatched opponent. That's good to know, now any country that wants to win should simply pick on the biggest country using the puniest force, children preferably and you have a defacto victory. Therefore any act of terrorism, however you define it is not only justified but victorious.

Is there even such a thing as crime or should we seek for reasons to blame the victim?

[Mediocrates]

"We are all against terror on civilians"
<obligatory statement of outrage over terrorism here>

Well some of us are at any rate. Most of you seem to abhor it in the same breath that you justify it. Actually you in particular give little more thought to dead Israelis than you would to the kind of milk you put in your coffee. I wouldn't call it hate, just a demonic kind of indifference.

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by Northlander

Its easy really. Do you want all this to end? Just end the occupation.

Ok, Northlander, lets play. Tomorrow, Sharon decides to take your advice and orders all his forces back behind the green line. We'll even throw in a bonus. He forces all Israelis living in those areas to abandon their homes in Judea, Samaria and Gaza to move to Tel Aviv.

With your wisdom, tell me how Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah etc. will react to this wonderful turn of events? :rolleyes:

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic

NewsGuy, sorry, you are wrong. Anti-Israel tendencies are not limited to the Left in Europe. There are hardly reliable statistics on that, but just look at Jacques Chirac...
I actually wrote "the European oil-slave governments and deluded Euro-Leftists... "

But you're certainly correct that French President Abu Chirac is a pro-Arab terrorism apologist. In fact, the Arab Republic of France is home to numerous anti-Israel hypocrites and anti-Semites across the political spectrum.

Just as a point of reference, though, for me as an American, a socialist like Chirac would be considered left-wing in my book.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Just as a point of reference, though, for me as an American, a socialist like Chirac would be considered left-wing in my book.
Chirac a SOCIALIST??? He'd sue you for libel, if he knew :-)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
We all know that the palestininan terror is hard and cruel. No one in europe is denying that. Its never a discussion about if it exist or not...
That's right -- there's never a discussion about it in Europe. Finally something that is starting to make sense from Northlander.

So now, please tell us how many anti-Palestinian demonstrations have you seen in your own country of Sweden, for example?

Has your hypocritical prime minister or snake-lady Anna Lindh proposed a UN resolution to condemn the Palestinian terrorism? Of course not, because that would be way too honest for a country which has no idea about terrorism and where the worst conceivable national problem is its citizens running out of Glog on Christmas Eve.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic

Chirac a SOCIALIST??? He'd sue you for libel, if he knew :-)
For my POV, France is a socialist country, with Abu Chirac only a hair less socialist than Jospin.

[Vic]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

For my POV, France is a socialist country, with Abu Chirac only a hair less socialist than Jospin.
Umm... just for the sake of definitions: is there a single French (or European) politician you woudn't call a socialist?

[Vic]

"Sometimes I really envy the Palestinians. Now, for example, there is a demand for them to institute democratic reforms that will create a transparent, responsible regime and carry out all sorts of really important measures that are vital if they want to have a truly democratic state. Has anyone demanded that we introduce similar changes? Has anyone dared to come out openly in favor of such changes? Can you possibly imagine President [George W.] Bush telling the Saudis, for example, that they must alter the structure of their economy and that they must see to it that their economy is transparent so that it will be possible to discover what happened to all the fat fees that American and European industrialists handed over to the princes of that kingdom? Has anyone demanded that Syria or Egypt embark on democratic reform? In the final analysis, Palestine will be the world's only democratic Arab state, simply because it was forced to establish a democratic regime. The citizens of every other Arab state will look on in envy at that truly great accomplishment."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=165288&contrassID=2&subContrassID=5&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

[Batman]

Original post by Northlander:

The situation in Jerusalem is nothing but apartheid. The Arabs in Israel doesn't have the same rights as Jews
The Middle East conflict is not about Israel's occupation of the territories. It is about the refusal of the Arabs to make peace with Israel, which is inevitable by-product of their desire to destroy it.

In 1920s the British and French created the states that now define the Middle East out of the ashes of the empire of the defeated Turkish Empire. They drew the boundaries of new states, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. The British had previously promised the Jewish Zionists a "national home" in the remaining area, known as Palestine Mandate. In 1921 the British separated 80% of the Mandate, east of Jordan River and created the Arab kingdom:"Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian peninsula and he lacked a seat of power. Abdullah's tribe was Hashemite while the vast majority of Abdullah's subjects were Palestinian Arabs.

What was left of the original Palestine Mandate-between the west bank of Jordan and the Mediterranean sea had been settled by Arabs and Jews. The Jews, continuously lived in that area for 3,700 years, even after the Romans destroyed their state in 70A.D. Arabs became a dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century A.D. as a result of the Muslim invasions. These Arabs were largely nomads who had no distinctive language or culture to separate them from other Arabs. In all the time since, they had made no attempt to create an independent Palestinian state west or east of the Jordan and none was ever established.

The Nazi Holocaust created great pressure for a Jewish homeland since not even the US or Britain opened their borders for the Jews to escape from Nazi Europe.

Under the partition plan the Arabs were given the Jews' ancient home in Judea and Samaria- not known as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip on the border of Egypt. The Jews were allotted 3 slivers of disconnected land along the Mediterranean and the Sinai desert. They were also given access to their holy city of Jerusalem but as an island cut off from the slivers, surrounded by Arab land and under international control. 60% of the land allotted to the Jews was the Negev desert. the entire portion represented only about 10% of the Palestine Mandate. Out of these unpromising parts, the Jews created a new state, Israel, in 1948. At this time - the idea of a Palestinian nation, or a movement to create one did not even exist.

Thus, at the moment of Israel's birth, Palestinian Arabs lived on roughly 90% of the original Palestine Mandate- in Tran Jordan and in the UN partition area, but also in the new state of Israel itself. There were 800,000 Arabs living in Israel alongside 650,000 Jews. At the same time Jews were legally barred from settling in the 35,000 square miles of Palestinian Tran Jordan which eventually was renamed simply as Jordan.

The Arab population in the slivers called Israel had actually more than tripled since the Zionists first began to settle the area in the 1880s. The reason for this was because the Jewish settles had brought industrial and agricultural development with them, which attracted Arab immigrant.

If the Palestinian Arabs had been willing to accept this arrangement in which they received 90% of the land in the Palestine Mandate, and under which they benefited from the industry, enterprise and political democracy the Jews brought to the region, there would have been no Middle East conflict.

But they were not.

Instead...the Arab League- representing 5 neighboring Arab states, declared war on Israel on the day of its creation and 5 Arab armies invaded the slivers with the aim of destroying the infant Jewish State. During the fighting according to the UN mediator on the scene, an estimated 472,000 Arabs fled their homes and left the infant state. Some fled to escape dangers, others were driven out by the heat of the war. They planned on returning after an Arab victory and the destruction of the Jewish state-an outcome their leaders promised.[QUOTE]Northlander Comment: The situation in Jerusalem is nothing but apartheid. The Arabs in Israel doesn't have the same rights as Jews

[Batman]

Continued from above re:

Original post by Northlander:

The situation in Jerusalem is nothing but apartheid. The Arabs in Israel doesn't have the same rights as Jews


But the Jews-many of them recent Holocaust survivors-refused to be defeated. Instead, the 5 Arab armies that had invaded their slivers were repelled. Yet, there was no peace. even though their armies were beaten the Arab states were determined to carry on their campaign of destruction and to remain formally at was with the Israeli state. After the defeat of the Arab armies, the Palestinians who lived in the Arab area of the UN partition did not attempt to create a state of their own. Instead, in 1950 Jordan annexed the entire West Bank and Egypt annexed the Gaza strip.
There were n protests.

As a result of the annexation and the continued state of war, the Arab refugees who had fled the Israeli slivers did not return. There was a refugee flow into Israel, but it was a flow of Jews who had been expelled from the Arab countries. All over the Middle East, Jews were forced to leave lands they had lived on for centuries. Although Israel was a tiny geographical area and a fledgling state, its government welcomed and resettled 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab countries. No Arab country welcome Palestinian refugees or allowed them to become citizens.

At the same time, the Jews resumed their work of creating a new nation on what was now a single sliver of land. Israel had annexed a small amount of territory to make their state defensible, including a land bridge that included Jerusalem.

In the years to follow Israel made their desert bloom. They built the only industrialized economy in the entire Mid East, the only liberal democracy in the Middle East. They treated the Arabs who remained in Israel well. To this day the very large Arab minority which lives inside the state of Israel has more rights and privileges than any other Arab population in the entire Middle East. There is no Arab country in the Middle East for example, whose Arab citizens can vote.

This is especially true of the Arabs living under Yasser Arafat's corrupt dictatorship, the Palestinian Authority, which today administers the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and whose Arabs subjects have no human rights. In 1997 in a fit of pique against the Oslo accords, Palestinian spokesman Edward Said himself blurted this out calling Arafat" Our Papa Doc"- after the sadistic dictator of Haiti- and complaining that there was a "total absence of law or the rule of law in the Palestinian autonomy areas."

The present Middle East conflict is said to be about the "occupied territories"- the West Bank o f the Jordan and the Gaza Strip- and about Israel's refusal to "give them up." But during the first 20 years of the Arab-Israeli conflict, Israel did not control the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. When Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt annexed the Gaza Strip after the 1948 war, there was no Arab outrage. But the war against Israel continued.

One reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation of the West Bank was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following Jordan's annexation of the West Bank, the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incite this claim. The idea that the current conflict is about "occupied territories" is only on of the many large Arab deceits- now widely accepted- that have distorted the history of the Middle East wars.

In 1967 Egypt, Syria and Jordan- whose leaders never ceased to call for the destruction of Israel- massed hundreds of thousands of troops on Israel's borders and blockaded the Straits of Tirana, closing the port of Éclat. Israel's only opening to the East. This was an act of war. Because Israel had no land mass to defend itself from being over-run, and to avoid destruction, Israel struck the Arab armies first and defeated them for the second time. It was in repelling these armies that Israel came to control the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as well as the oil-rich Sinai desert. Israel had every right to annex these territories captured from the aggressors- a time honored ritual among nations, and in fact the precise way that Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Jordan had come into existence themselves. But Israel did not do so. On the other hand, neither did it withdraw its armies or relinquish control.

The reason was that the Arab aggressors refused again to make peace. Instead they declared themselves still at war with Israel, a threat no Israeli government could afford to ignore. By this time, Israel was a country of 2-3 million surrounded by declared enemies whose combined populations numbered over 100 million. Geographically, Israel was so small that at one point it was less than ten miles across. No responsible Israeli government could relinquish a territorial buffer while its hostile neighbors were still formally at war. This is the reality that frames the Middle East conflict.

In 1973 six years after the second Arab war against the Jews, the Arab armies again attacked Israel. The attack was led by Syria and Egypt abetted by Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and 5 other countries who gave military support to the aggressors, including an Iraqi division of 18,000 men. Israel again defeated the Arab forces. Afterwards, Egypt- and Egypt alone- agreed to make formal peace.

the peace was signed by Egyptian president An war Sad at who was then assassinated by Islamic radicals paying his statesmanship with his life, Sadat is one of the 3 Arab leaders assassinated by other Arabs for making peace with the Jews.

Under Camp David accords that Sadat signed, Israel returned the entire Sinai with allots oil riches. This act demonstrated once and for all that the solution to the Mid East conflict was ready at hand. It only required the Arabs to agree.

Even to this day, the Arabs claim that Jewish settlements in the West Bank are an obstacle to peace. But there are Arab settlements in Israel- they are actually called "cities"- they are not a problem for Israel so why should Jewish settlements be a problem for Arabs?

The Middle East conflict is not about Israel's occupation of the territories. It is about the refusal of the Arabs to make peace with Israel, which is inevitable by-product of their desire to destroy it.

[elke]

Personally, I don't trust any polls conducted anywhere in the Arab world, including the West Bank and Gaza.

In any totalitarian regime, the dichotomy between public speech and private thoughts exists. Looking at the "treatment" of the "collaborators", I can sympathize with a person who cannot afford to lose their life that way. As for the "Arab Streets", it's easy to fill them with whatever people you want, if you can force them out of their homes at gunpoint. I wonder just how many of those demonstrations are truly spontaneous: one of my clearest childhood memories (in USSR in the '70s) is a November 7 demonstration we were forced to attend, for fear that my father would lose his job and not be able to publish his papers, etc. What if the "penalty" was death? How much larger those demonstrations would have been?

When the Arab governments,including that in PA, perceive that real peace in the ME is in their interest, much of this incitement - and terrorism with it - will disappear.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

For my POV, France is a socialist country, with Abu Chirac only a hair less socialist than Jospin.


LOL, Chirac a socialist. Than Reagan was probably a communist ... sure, you are well informed on European politics i must say.

Chirac is one of the most capitalistic swines of today's society. He's corrupt, chauvenistic, imperialistic, and if it wouldn't have been of le pen, also jailed :D

[Northlander]

Well..., lets see, if terrorism is so effective what has it accomplished in the last 30 years? Why would the next 30 be different?

Well, maybe not the last 30 but go back just a little longer and we´ll see. I would say that terrorism has been very effective from time to time to reach goals politically. Without Israeli terrorism there probably wouldnt be any Israel at all today. And Irish etc.
Israeli terrorism by the way was very effective. I never hear any one of you here complain about that. It seems to me that the only terrorism that is bad in your eyes are the one targeted at Israel. Also a single attack 1983 against the US marines in lebanon got USA to leave the country. It has worked numerous times. Many european former colonies got their independence after terrorism/resistance whatever you call it.
Is there even such a thing as crime or should we seek for reasons to blame the victim?
I asked you? Is a warcrime not always a warcrime? Isnt international laws to be followed? Or is it ok that some is above the law?With your wisdom, tell me how Arafat, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah etc. will react to this wonderful turn of events?
With more terror? Obviosly things would improve. Some members of above organisations would probably still continue with terror to reach their goal of the final destruction of israel but they would lose most of their support. As long as you dont do anything nothing will change but the fact that even more palestinians will sign up as fighters against israel. Explain for me how it could be that Hamas turned into an organistation THIS brutal in the first place? They where nothing like this in the beginning, when Israel supported them by the way as a counter-meassure against PLO.
Has your hypocritical prime minister or snake-lady Anna Lindh proposed a UN resolution to condemn the Palestinian terrorism? Of course not, because that would be way too honest for a country which has no idea about terrorism and where the worst conceivable national problem is its citizens running out of Glog on Christmas Eve.
You dont know much about the world I hear. We have had our share of terrorism too. But what we are is the country in the world with the longest consecutive peace. In your book maybe that doesnt count for much but in my book its positive. It makes us think clear and we have a tradition when it comes to diplomacy. Our foreign and primeministers have been attacked and hated before by guys like you when out country speak out against wars. During vietnam our relations froze with US cause we didnt support them. Alot of countries followed our example after that one. It took 20 years but most people have their opinion about that war made out now. Same with s.africa. Others followed when they got the picture. Basically you cant do much about it. There are other ways than the military you know. We have had a certain big neighbour here for 500 years so we know somethings about diplomacy and defence too. You are arrogant as always over there when it comes to judging other people and countries. We knows all about the muslim countries over here belive me. We have a tradition of giving refugees from there a new chance here. But opposed to the american way of seeing things we just dont paint things in black and white, friend or enemy. We dont support Israel just because their neighbours are worse. Its very simple, even you should be able to get it. A warcrime is always a warcrime. British warcrimes are as bad as german warcrimes. Russian in afghanistan as american in vietnam.
Israeli or palestinian. Now we are focusing on this conflict. Both sides have to make compromises its time Israel understands that. Our snake-lady is just pointing out the fact that Israel is not more important and have no more special rights than the rest of the world. The palestinians have not had any rights for 50 years so its no use pointing that out.

Batman, impressive writing, you have done your sionist homework, but very subjective.
this one I like: "Israel had annexed a small amount of territory to make their state defensible, including a land bridge that included Jerusalem."

This one is lovely,hehe:"Even to this day, the Arabs claim that Jewish settlements in the West Bank are an obstacle to peace. But there are Arab settlements in Israel- they are actually called "cities"- they are not a problem for Israel so why should Jewish settlements be a problem for Arabs?"

"an estimated 472,000 Arabs fled their homes and left the infant state. Some fled to escape dangers, others were driven out by the heat of the war."
Deir Yassin, Lod/Lydda etc. You have a nice way of putting it.
Those refugees are more than welcome back to Israel now am I right??

Again comparisons between Israel and the Arabstates, why? If you ask me which country i would prefer to live and work in for a while, of the countries in ME, it would be Israel. Maybe Lebanon too but Israel most of all. Its not comparable to states as IRaq and sarabia etc. But whats the point? Do you seriously belive me to close my eyes to the fact that thousands of civilians have died on the palestinian side by israeli force? Do only Israeli casualties count because its a democracy? There lived arabs in palestine when Israel was created. Even if other arab countries attacked Israel the question of the future for all those palestinians is still there. If they attack again of course you have the right to defend.
I would give my support to israel in the event of such an attack. But it would help if you withdraw to 1967 borders and defended from there. Im not alone of that opinion. It would benefit israel from a strategic view. It would cool down the conflict with the palestinians and probably with most neighbours too. It is a step that sooner or later has to be taken anyway so the sooner the better.

hehe yes I agree to Morpheus that newsguys post of chirac shows he is...hmm..not well informed.

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by Northlander


With more terror? Obviosly things would improve. Some members of above organisations would probably still continue with terror to reach their goal of the final destruction of israel but they would lose most of their support. As long as you dont do anything nothing will change but the fact that even more palestinians will sign up as fighters against israel.


So basically Israel's reward for this huge concession would be continued terrorism until the membership of these organizations begins to diminish at some vague point in the future. You obviously agree that Arafat would not be able to control these groups even if he wanted to.

Also, this event would be nothing but a morale booster, a great victory, for these groups seeking the total destruction of Israel. A reward for evil. It would probably only encourage them to greater effort, greater violence, more innocent deaths.

So, yes, you are correct things would improve for palestinians and terrorists. What benefit for Israel? More fear. Less security. A vague promise that eventually fanatics will give up their evil since Israel is giving what they demand.

There must be something in it for Israel other than making themselves more vulnerable. There must be leadership or organization among the palestinians that is both willing and capable of eliminating those groups. Until then Israel would be a fool to accede to these demands.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Vic
Umm... just for the sake of definitions: is there a single French (or European) politician you woudn't call a socialist?
Maybe the UK is somewhat less socialist than the rest.

From my POV (and I'm definitely NOT concerned with European self-definition), European countries all have a huge socialist component, from large-scale subsidies to a huge amount of government intervention in national and international trade, not to mention the socialist income tax rates of 50%-70%.

Of course, the U.S. also has social programs and an exaggerated tax burden, but the Europeans have really outdone themselves in socialist interventionism in business.

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
[B]
Maybe the UK is somewhat less socialist than the rest.

B]


OK, com'on, stop BS'ing Newsman, where were you at the latest elections in France, Holland? Don't you see socialism is dead? Holland has voted against socialism, so had France, Italy did it a while ago and Germany will most likely continue this new wave of rightwingers.

The ONLY country which still has a socialist majority IS THE UK. Facts facts facts .... :o

[Batman]

Original quote by Northlander:

The situation in Jerusalem is nothing but apartheid. The Arabs in Israel doesn't have the same rights as Jews


The Middle East conflict is not about Israel's occupation of the territories. It is about the refusal of the Arabs to make peace with Israel, which is inevitable by-product of their desire to destroy it.



What was left of the original Palestine Mandate-between the west bank of Jordan and the Mediterranean sea had been settled by Arabs and Jews. The Jews, continuously lived in that area for 3,700 years, even after the Romans destroyed their state in 70A.D. Arabs became a dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century A.D. as a result of the Muslim invasions. These Arabs were largely nomads who had no distinctive language or culture to separate them from other Arabs. In all the time since, they had made no attempt to create an independent Palestinian state west or east of the Jordan and none was ever established.

Under the partition plan the Arabs were given the Jews' ancient home in Judea and Samaria- not known as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip on the border of Egypt. The Jews were allotted 3 slivers of disconnected land along the Mediterranean and the Sinai desert. They were also given access to their holy city of Jerusalem but as an island cut off from the slivers, surrounded by Arab land and under international control. 60% of the land allotted to the Jews was the Negev desert. the entire portion represented only about 10% of the Palestine Mandate. Out of these unpromising parts, the Jews created a new state, Israel, in 1948. At this time - the idea of a Palestinian nation, or a movement to create one did not even exist.

Thus, at the moment of Israel's birth, Palestinian Arabs lived on roughly 90% of the original Palestine Mandate- in Tran Jordan and in the UN partition area, but also in the new state of Israel itself. There were 800,000 Arabs living in Israel alongside 650,000 Jews. At the same time Jews were legally barred from settling in the 35,000 square miles of Palestinian Tran Jordan which eventually was renamed simply as Jordan.


If the Palestinian Arabs had been willing to accept this arrangement in which they received 90% of the land in the Palestine Mandate, and under which they benefited from the industry, enterprise and political democracy the Jews brought to the region, there would have been no Middle East conflict.

But they were not.

Instead...the Arab League- representing 5 neighboring Arab states, declared war on Israel on the day of its creation in 1948 and 5 Arab armies invaded the slivers with the aim of destroying the infant Jewish State. During the fighting according to the UN mediator on the scene, an estimated 472,000 Arabs fled their homes and left the infant state. Some fled to escape dangers, others were driven out by the heat of the war. They planned on returning after an Arab victory and the destruction of the Jewish state-an outcome their leaders promised. [/B]

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Morpheus
Facts facts facts .... :o
Listen, Morpheum, you're mistaken. European countries are very much socialist, no matter what the particular party name happens to be elected or defeated at any given moment.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Northlander
It makes us think clear and we have a tradition when it comes to diplomacy.Yes, of course, a tradition of never taking a firm position against Nazism, Communism, nor Islamic terrorism. Collaborate with whichever brutal, immoral regime threatens world peace, and hopefully you will be saved. Great tradition, Northlander, but not one that I'd be proud of if I were you.

During vietnam our relations froze with US cause we didnt support them...

...We have had a certain big neighbour here for 500 years so we know somethings about diplomacy and defence too. Yes, this an example of what I just wrote above.