Israelis are Amateurs

[rhodescholar]

By allowing the arabs to manipulate the media's focus onto the prisoner release, instead of the clear and obvious requirements of the written Road Map on the arabs to disarm the terrorists, which is clearly the most important inital step of the document, the israeli govt has once again pinned itself into a corner.

The israeli flaks should have started howling from day one of the road map, in unison and persistently, that the road map MUST be adhered to precisely as written, unlike Oslo. Instead, the onus is on israel to do something not even in the document when the arabs should be following thru on their obligations AS CLEARLY STATED in the Road map,

The level of incompetence of the policymakers and communications officials in israel is simply astounding. They have no ability to influence world press or commentary whatsoever.

They aborgated their responsibility and just allowed the arabs to move the focus off of themselves and onto israel's actions - just like in jenin during April 2002.

The arabs have now been allowed to open the door for idiots like Shaath to make further statements about other things not in the road map, such as those he made this week about the right of return for the arab refugees. This will continue until the israeli govt steps up and puts the focus where it should be - on arab cessation of violence and incitement.

[L@mplighterM]

I think that there’s a volcano waiting to erupt in the ME. From my perspective way too many concessions are being made by Israel.

Towns are being handed over and prisoners released right and left, what’ll happen when there’s nothing left to give?

[old-reb]

This is sad sad by true.

Tell me it is not possible that the whole world could believe the Islamic terrorist lies and not understand the position of Israel. Worst case is that most of the world is biased against Israel and cannot see the truth.

also the world and Israel wants peace so bad they will believe any lie in hopes of having peace.

I wanted to rent my old house so bad that I rented it twice for no money, only promise(lies) of money. Twice I got took to the cleaners. The next time I demanded one month rent plus a months rent deposit and the first person that came along happily took the deal. I was amazed.

old reb

[Battle Ground]

Towns are being handed over and prisoners released right and left, what’ll happen when there’s nothing left to give?



And that is why, IMO, "peace" in the area is impossible.... unless.

Unless Israel is utterly destroyed. But of course, that's not what the Pal's want. The Pals want to "inherit" an already built-just-for-them country.

All they seem to want is the Jewish Population of Israel eradicated... not their infrastructure.

Or....

Unless Israel cuts to the chase, and forcibly removes the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza, returning them to Jordan (Which, as I understand it, now occupies 80% of the Palestinian "homeland") and/or Lebanon.

The choices are cruel, to be sure... but the reality of the situation appears to be that no matter how much Israel "gives," it will NEVER be enough.

Yassir and his terrorist buddies remain afloat on a sea of blood. No matter what Israel does, as long as Israel exists, these animals will continue to attack, or manipulate others into attacking, Israel.

If Israel does what it must do to save itself, the entire world will condemn them, The entire world (including, to a greater or lesser extent, the US) will complain like cut cats.

But where has the "entire world" been when Israel has been invaded?

Israel must stop worrying so much about what the rest of the world thinks, and start focusing on what it's going to take to survive into the NEXT century.

And a continued terrorist population in close proximity to their favorite targets will never allow "peace" to happen... ever.

[Israelite-Tribe]

*clap* *clap*

Nicely said , very nicely, that's why all the Jews from all around the world rich or poor should move to Israel now and we should find solutions for water supplies and for dealing with them terrorists

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Israelite-Tribe
*clap* *clap*

__________________
The world hates us and so we shall with love give them all our hate..



I forgive you for your hatred and insult. I understand where you are coming from.

And by the way I am all for removing all terrorist from Israel including WB and Gaza.

old reb

[Chaya_G]

B"SD
Originally posted by rhodescholar
By allowing the arabs to manipulate the media's focus onto the prisoner release

Israel has been insisting persistently that the terrorist groups be taken out even before the Road Map came into being--without success. Israel's demands will always fall on deaf ears. That is a given and is part of the terrorist strategy.

Everytime a Palestinian leader gets hold of a microphone, he states that all Israeli actions taken in accordance with the Road Map are mere tokens--symbolic actions which are not in full compliance with the proposed peace plan. No matter how many prisoners have been released, the Palestinians will ALWAYS complain that not enough have been released. No matter how many settlements have been dismantled, the Palestinians will state that those settlements were only temporary camps and not true settlements.

Trying to win the media war with terrorists won't work simply because their ultimate goal is NOT peace but disturbance of the peace. The terrorists will use even a peace plan to overthow their enemy. Israel shouldn't worry too much about winning this particular media war.

Israel CAN however win the media war with the Palestinian people themselves. The Palestinians know their own leaders very well. They know what hardships have been inflicted on them because their own leaders don't really want peace. They are just as tired as the Israelis themselves, and they have NO ONE to speak for them or protect them in the event that they do decide to speak out. I think more could be done to foster the Palestinians' dislike, mistrust, and ultimate repudiation of their own very venal leaders. They won't even need much convincing--they know very well the true nature of their leaders. What good are the hospitals that Hamas builds, if all its actions produce only more corpses? What good are the schools that Hamas runs, if children are taught that the supreme good is to die in a terrorist atack?

Taking out the terrorist leaders, while making those that survive feel hunted and vulnerable, and providing other more moderate leaders to take their place is a good plan. They musn't be given a chance to breathe or take a second look around. They must be kept running and hiding. They must feel that no place is safe. Meanwhile, other more reasonable people must take their place. The people must be weaned from these deathmongers and have their lives returned to them.

[RyaninZion]

Chaya,

You are right to a large degree. However, there is still some reason to keep up the fight in terms of the overall media war.

There are still tens of millions of potential Israel-supporing Christians and Jews in the United States who, if mobilized into one or even a handful of powerful voices, could have a real effect.

The reason being that both the average Israel and Israel's political leaders are VERY vulnerable to international public opinion. They care a lot, way too much in fact, about what others think of them.

If Israelis knew how many millions of bible-believing Christians support them in the US, and what kind of political power those millions could have by pressuring the government, they would be far more bold in their actions.

So, still something to fight for there in the media..... though it is a very tough uphill battle.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by RyaninZion
Chaya,

There are still tens of millions of potential Israel-supporing Christians and Jews in the United States who, if mobilized into one or even a handful of powerful voices, could have a real effect.

If Israelis knew how many millions of bible-believing Christians support them in the US, and what kind of political power those millions could have by pressuring the government, they would be far more bold in their actions.


Good point Ryanin Zion. But the American Jews do not need or want the help of these bible-believing Christians and make it perfectly clear every day to Christians all over the US. The American Jews on the Left mock the Christians through the media and Hollywood. The American Jews on the Right (perhaps 10-15% of the total American Jewish population) are somewhat more open minded. But on the whole, they do not need, want or trust bible-believing Christians either....for these Christians are only anti-semites waiting to be "found out" by those who have never experienced what they are trying to uncover.

So we bible-believing Christians, through our association with your American cousins, are becoming more and more agnostic about the whole Israeli-Arab fiasco.....kind of, 'let them kill each other and get it over with" approach.

Sorry to tell you of this; perhaps you (Israel) should make direct contact with the bible-believing Christians in the US, instead of going through your American cousins. Maybe you want and need our support. We are, generally on your side. At least up until lately. I believe that events in the coming year will drive Jews and Christians apart in this country.

I came to this board a stanch pro-Israeli...perhaps even a bit of a Zionist. Only to "be uncovered" that I am an anti-semite Christian by those who carry your flag over here but cannot find it in themselves to move to Israel and defend her against those who are trying to destroy her. It is much easier, I guess, to fight a war and suffer oppression vicariously while sitting in a soft easy chair in New York or Florida, or while going to law school in California.

I find it refreshing to finally speak with a real Israeli on the Israel Forum. Shalom and I hope that things go well in your country. You have it tough.

[RyaninZion]

Hi Alfred,

Actually, I too am an American Christian. I made my home in Israel several years ago and have been here ever since.

I think you are absolutely right. With the vast majority of American Jews leaning heavily to the left, and in many cases simply being assimilated, there is little hope of any kind of large-scale coming together on Israel's behalf between American Christians and Jews.

Though this kind of thing is certainly happening on a smaller scale in many areas and thanks to many fine ministries.

But, as you suggested, the real goal would be to get Israeli Jews linked up in a big way with their fervent American Christian supporters.

This is a much more doable scenario, though it too is a long road. A very large portion of Israeli Jewish society is absolutely secular, and has little or no interest in fighting for its land and rights based on biblical promises - the very thing that drives us Christians.

But, there is a large enough portion of Israeli society that does see things like us in this area with which we can link up to. And this too is already happening. The rest of Israeli society is likely to join up once they see how strong the Christian support can be.

Secular or not, most Israelis are very sensitive to how the world views them. If they suddenly find a large pool of millions of people ACTIVELY backing them, they will be emboldened.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by RyaninZion
Hi Alfred,

Actually, I too am an American Christian. I made my home in Israel several years ago and have been here ever since.




Ha!! I love it. Stomp, stomp, chuckle, chuckle, grabs sides with laughter.

I FINALLY meet an Israeli Jew who seems to be on the same wavelength as me with regard to their potential allies in the US, and I end up with a fellow Christian!!

I give up :)

Israel-support is too frustrating a hobby. Israel is a nation that seems hell-bent on suicide: they fight each other as much as they fight the enemy.... and they will not do what is necessary to win the war. For the most part they don't even believe in the God who gave them the land they live on.....and to top it off, their American cousins, in large measure, are trying to stamp out Christianity from any part of American public life, in the ONLY land that has ever given them a persecution free life.

Why should I waste any more emotional or monetary effort? Is it REALLY worth helping them to the tune of the tens of billions of dollars per year? Are Israelis different than their American cousins? Are they worth helping? Should we be spending more time with the Arabs to try to settle our differences? Questions, questions, questions.

Yes, yes. Much too frustrating.

I need to change hobbies.... perhaps solving world hunger. That would be easier than understanding this people.


By the way Ryanin....send me an email sometime. I am fascinated with why you are over there and what kind of reception you are getting. I imagine it is better than what you would get over here doing similar work.

Alfred, the pro-Israeli anti-semite (honorary award)

[Communication]

RyaninZion,

Before your embrace the unflattering words of your "Christian" brother, Alfred, know that this so-called Christain Morman is probably personally responsible for converting some of your long- deceased relatives in order to populate some future planet that he will personally rule over. He has spent considerable time on this board preparing for his future role in the hearafter by ordering us around and maniuplating forum members into accepting what he has to say, least he withhold support for the nation of Israel. Also know that I as a Jew, am very grateful for Christian support of Israel. What's more, I have read and understand the New Testement better than most Christians I've met, something that Alfred has had much difficulty dealing with, thus the references he made to the "Jew attending law school in California." By now, I'm sure that you have spent enough time in Israel to be familiar with the term "lashon hora," and so you can understand when I recommend that you proceed with caution when evaluating his words.

Thank you, and I wish you the best in the holy land.


Your friend,

Mira

[Frans_1]

(from Alfred's posts)

But the American Jews do not need or want the help of these bible-believing Christians and make it perfectly clear every day to Christians all over the US. The American Jews on the Left mock the Christians through the media and Hollywood. The American Jews on the Right (perhaps 10-15% of the total American Jewish population) are somewhat more open minded. But on the whole, they do not need, want or trust bible-believing Christians either....for these Christians are only anti-semites waiting to be "found out" by those who have never experienced what they are trying to uncover.

Why should I waste any more emotional or monetary effort? Is it REALLY worth helping them to the tune of the tens of billions of dollars per year? Are Israelis different than their American cousins? Are they worth helping? Should we be spending more time with the Arabs to try to settle our differences? Questions, questions, questions.

Israel is a nation that seems hell-bent on suicide: they fight each other as much as they fight the enemy.... and they will not do what is necessary to win the war. For the most part they don't even believe in the God who gave them the land they live on.....


A Chinese Christian from HongKong. I am pro Israel because I am Christian and from that moral perspective, I am strongly of the belief that Israel is in the right - even though Israel today is giving up what is right under outside pressure. Watching the lies and murder that pours out from the Arab world and their supporters just means that everyone has to take sides depending upon ones morals. I think the whole world is in some way affected by Middle East politics and therefore nobody can be completely neutral.

In my view, being Christian is really about following a set of advice, or commands, for the attitude and conduct in ones life. Biblical promises are for Whoever it was who made the statements to fufill it.

Incidentally, that is why I never particularly feel much need to defend my faith either in the online world or in the physical world. Unlike, for example, Muslims here on this board who have always leapt to "defend Islam" at the slightest opening (even in situations where the words "Islam"or "Muslims" have not been mentioned! Sometimes even without any prompting too.) or an atheist who will never pass up a valuable opportunity to attack faith. Lets say that the God I follow does not need to hide behind me.

But I do not kid myself about what Alfred says either. I've never had to ask for I know that Jewish people are going to be suspicious of me because I am Christian, doubly suspicious because I am a Christian who is pro Israel. The thought at the back of their minds will probably be along the lines of "Christian = Nazi " and "pro Israel Christian = Apocalyptic Nazi Evangelical" . Christians, I think, ultimately rank far lower on that scale than the Muslim Arab who is shrieking for the destruction of the¡§Jews¡¨

What other people think of me isn't going to change my position of course. Knowing that simply makes me guarded. In simple terms, while someone dislikes you is not a reason to abandon a principle, it is probably reason to avoid doing lunch ¡V though you fully support that person's rights because of your moral outlook .

I've been pro Israel all my life. (No member of my family is, nor any of my peer group, anyone i have ever worked with or done business with, or almost anyone i have ever met in the physical world.) But that I stress is the moral perspective. If Israel really were the fascist genocidal state her enemies claim, it would be totally different. But perhaps, the role of Israel¡¦s friends and enemies will also be totally reversed.

Israel-support is too frustrating a hobby.

Now I can have a hobby - which can be judged alternately by frustration and fun. But one surely does not make a hobby of things such as morality .

As for Israel monetary support, I'd like to buy Israel goods, if there was an equal choice, but that is usually a hard product to find here in HK. Not sure why. You can buy Yugoslavian Republic chocolate here though.

Lies and truth are indeed turned upside down. End of the day, it is really up to the Jewish people how they want to handle this ¡V as a conflict between two peoples which can hopefully be settled by bargaining or what it really is, a larger struggle for Arab hegemony, another war of Arab invasion, since the advent of Islamist Imperialism which has dominated the Middle East for 14 centuries .

[Communication]

All sarcasm aside, frans_1, you are making a very important point. There are many people who claim to be "Christians." But what can be said of someone who threatens to withhold their support if you do not agree with their views? That doesn't sound very "Christian" to me, never has. There are many Jews who I personally don't care for as individuals, but I still feel responsible for them nonetheless. When Jews are in pain, wherever they may be in the world, I am in pain, physically, mentally, I become ill. When a Christian feels the same way about Jewish suffering, then I consider them to be a member of my family. And I will be happy to share my joy with them as well.

[RyaninZion]

Hi Communication,

Not to worry, I am always wary of other people's words and claims. Even coming from declared pro-Israel American Christians. I know that many of them either don't really understand what is going on, or are in to supporting Israel for their own purposes and will only do so when convenient to them.

From my point of view, true bible believers have no choice but to support and stand beside Israel and the Jews - but must do so out of love for God and His word. If we can so easily toss aside our affection and support for Israel, then our faith is worthless.

God chose Israel for a specific purpose, and it is not our place to decide his choice was too inconvenient for us... It is only our place to accept His decisions and follow Him.

Regarding America's Jewish community - I do know that there are a great many who still love and support Israel, and recognize us Christian Zionists as true friends. For them I am truly grateful. For the others, I continue to pray God will open their eyes.

[Alfred]

Now that I have gotten everybodies attention...... and I believe Communication is upset with me :)


I have said the above to shock some of you out of your intellectual superiority. You can afford to be elitest because you are NOT on the front lines dying everyday.

Israel is dying.
Israel is on the ropes.
Israel is surrounded by what will soon be nuclear Arab powers.
Israel has become that "XXXX little country" for most Europeans.

The time for talking, arguing, pontificating and intellectualizing is finished. Or Israel will be finished.

This is an emergency situation, which is why I jumped all over some of you. A few of your understand what I am doing, and thank you for your kind private words.

RyaninZion is right. There is a large pool of potential support for in the USA for Israel. This support is pretty strong but can go away with friction between the Christian and Jewish communities in America. If that support died in the USA, where would Israel be? This may shock Communication, but people tend to support people they like, and tend to not support people they do not like. They don't have to share their soda without wiping the top, but they cannot hate each other or be fighting all the time and still support a common goal.

That is my point. And that is the point behind my Mel Gibson thread.

I believe that the American Jewish community needs to make some hard choices. Is it more important to maintain good relations between American Christians and American Jews...and thereby with Israel; or is it more important to remove the Ten Commandments from every public building? Or kill the Mel Gibson movie about Jesus, which events every Christian child already knows by heart? Or to insist that all Christian traditions, celebrations etc. (which have been going on in one form or another for 200+ years), be taken out of public life. Or to insist that a strong Christian is not worthy to sit on the Federal bench because of his "preconceived biases."

My point is that support for Israel within the Christian community is not limitless or without some quid pro quo. If you (and Israel by extention) are seen as being anti-Christian, how in the world can you expect continued support for Israel over the long run?? Isn't that a bit much to ask of any community?

And no Communication. I am not trying to convert Jews to Jesus. Our church for 150 years has specifically said that our missionary work is not to be directed toward the Jews. Jews have their own path to their God ahead of them. At some point the two camps will merge during Armaggedon. So feel at ease that the dreaded white-shirts will not purposefully come to your door. Now, the Southern Baptists may; but they are good people, so give them a listen.

I only talk about our doctrine as it relates to the future of Israel, or when asked. I am trying to explain why some Christians are so interested about the future of Israel. Sorry if you think I am trying to convert you. I am not. I am trying to educate you, and you love education you say.

And dear Communication. The world does not need another liberal lawyer....please reconsider. Especially one with a missionary zeal to convert the world. You are too nice of a person to descend into the dark side.

[Communication]

Alfred, I never accused you of trying to convert anyone here. You wouldn't be successful even if you tried. I never said that Mel Gibson couldn't make his movie, in fact, I said that he should be able to do it. I only pointed out some of the ramifications of his portryal, questioned the timing, and argued about the historical accuracy of his vision. If you consider yourself a member of the House of Israel, and I assume most Christians do, then stop trying to stifle debate.

I also can't recall a single person on this board, and I may be wrong, claiming that the Ten Commandments should be removed from a public place, or Christian traditions for that matter, or that a devout Christian isn't qualified to sit on the bench as a federal judge.

Stop making inflamatory statements, stop pushing us around, stop the threats, stop whining, and stop insulting our intelligence, and suddenly...as if by magic...your fears involving anti-Christian Jewish forum members will disappear.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Alfred

That is my point. And that is the point behind my Mel Gibson thread.

I believe that the American Jewish community needs to make some hard choices. Is it more important to maintain good relations between American Christians and American Jews...and thereby with Israel; or is it more important to remove the Ten Commandments from every public building? Or kill the Mel Gibson movie about Jesus, which events every Christian child already knows by heart? Or to insist that all Christian traditions, celebrations etc. (which have been going on in one form or another for 200+ years), be taken out of public life. Or to insist that a strong Christian is not worthy to sit on the Federal bench because of his "preconceived biases."

My point is that support for Israel within the Christian community is not limitless or without some quid pro quo. If you (and Israel by extention) are seen as being anti-Christian, how in the world can you expect continued support for Israel over the long run?? Isn't that a bit much to ask of any community?


Hello Alford,
I assume you are complaining TO people on this board ABOUT actions of ACLU or what ever it is that is fighting to have the ten commandments removed from someplace in Alabama and to stop the Mel Gibs movie, also Jewish orginazation that stops prayer in school.

old reb

[Communication]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Alford,
I assume you are complaining TO people on this board ABOUT actions of ACLU or what ever it is that is fighting to have the ten commandments removed from someplace in Alabama and to stop the Mel Gibs movie, also Jewish orginazation that stops prayer in school.

old reb


Hi old reb. For reasons stated in the Gibson thread, there are actually more Catholics concerned with Gibson's work than Jews. Also, I don't know how the ACLU became a Jewish organization. Finally, I don't see why Jews are singled out for any of the other problems mentioned involving prayer in school, the Alabama case or anything else you want to throw out there. We are a very diverse group of people. Just like Christians.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Communication
Hi old reb. For reasons stated in the Gibson thread, there are actually more Catholics concerned with Gibson's work than Jews. Also, I don't know how the ACLU became a Jewish organization. Finally, I don't see why Jews are singled out for any of the other problems mentioned involving prayer in school, the Alabama case or anything else you want to throw out there. We are a very diverse group of people. Just like Christians.

What I said just came off the top of my head and included conceived notions and or prejudgues.

The point of the post was to point out my belief that Alford was not directing his criticism toward you but at actions of Jews in general.

old reb

[Communication]

Originally posted by old-reb
What I said just came off the top of my head and included conceived notions and or prejudgues.

The point of the post was to point out my belief that Alford was not directing his criticism toward you but at actions of Jews in general.

old reb

Yes, it was exactly those generalizations that I was commenting on.


Newly Released Data Shows Jewish Republicans Increasing
Republican Jewish Coalition-September 8, 2003

Washington, DC-- Newly released national exit poll data from the November 2002 midterm election confirms growing Jewish support for Republican candidates, says Republican Jewish Coalition (RJC) Executive Director Matthew Brooks. The RJC is the national grassroots organization of Jewish Republicans.

Between 2000 and 2002, the number of Jews voting Republican went up as much as 60 percent -- increasing to 35 percent from the 21 to 26 percent of Jews who voted for Republicans during previous mid-term elections, according to the exit polls conducted by Voter News Service for the Associated Press and television networks.

"This data simply confirms what we have been saying all along," Brooks said. "Jewish voters are increasing their support for the Republican Party. Like other minorities, they resent being taken for granted and ignored by the Democrats. Jewish voters increasingly support Republican leadership on foreign policy and a broad range of other issues. That is translating into more Republican votes."

Voter News Service collected the exit poll data but was unable to deliver it on election night because of computer failures. After a delay caused by having to manually input the results from more than 16,000 paper questionnaires, an independent panel of academic survey research experts concluded the information is "of comparable utility and quality to past VNS exit polls, and we recommend that it be released for public use."

Among the exit poll's highlights: More voters identified themselves as Republican and fewer as political independents than in 1998 and 1994. Women leaned more Republican than usual, as did Jews. And twice as many respondents said their House vote was intended to express support for President Bush as said it was to oppose him.

"We are seeing a major shift in American political party alliances," Brooks said "and we expect these realignment trends to continue."

[frizzer1]

It's not a question of jews refusing or not appreciating christian support.
The question is what motivates that support.
In my occupation I have had the opportunity to discuss jewish-christian relations and the arab/israeli conflict with christians for decades.I have found that the majority have always been supportive of israel,and don't need to be prompted to voice their disgust with arab behaviour.
This support is from the heart and is not a religious issue.And this is the support that I value greatly.
However the christian fundamentalists have made it clear that for Armageddon to occur, the jews must be ingathered to Israel..and at that time jesus will return & all the jews will convert..(or go to hell, I presume).And so they support Israel in it's war with the arabs.
It's true that Israel needs this support, and it may help her to survive so I value this support as well, but obviously only in that we need the help.
Should we love them when in effect they want to see Israel's destruction and that of world jewry just as the arabs do, but in a different way & a different time?
When they begin to support Israel because we have right on our side and not for their own objectives I will appreciate their support as well.

[SteveMetch]

The current wisdom is that Israel will not remove Arafat because of international pressure not to do so.

I think they are cleverer than that. Destroying Arafat and Company would initiate a true peace process.

In this gray area of tit for tat violence Israel is using its superior military and economy to gradually fence off and fill in all the remaining land of historic Israel. Following this they will then cut off and remove one Palestine hamlet at a time until all Arabs are removed from historic Israel. This process should take about ten years. As it is now any Arab nation cut off but along side Israel would only be a glorified refuge camp in which to launch continuous terrorist attacks anyway.

As such the Israelis are perfectly happy to let the fools in Europe and elsewhere continue to support Arafat and his cronies. As long as Arafat and Company continues to launch suicide bombers against them they know that their urban renewal program will continue too be seen as working within the gray area of national security. Israel expands settlements that then are attacked requiring more generous fencing to protect separating the Arabs into little disconnected refuge camps. If their was ever to arise a true peace partner on the other side who could stop all terrorist attacks either by force or persuasion the gig would be up.

As with many things when what you are doing doesn’t seem to work “supporting Arafat and company” doing the exact opposite is many times the solution. Fortunately, I think the Europeans are too stupid to realize the error of their ways and will continue to prop up and protect the terrorists until the last terrorist bomb is delivered and the last square mile is taken.

By the International community continuing to supporting such an unworthy peace partner they provide a legitimate excuse for the continued reduction of a viable Arab state along side of Israel.

God works in mysterious ways. His folly is greater than man’s wisdom.

[old-reb]

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

I don't support the jews because of their religion or manners or how they think of me. I support them because Islam is doing the most horrible thing known to man, the genocide of a race.

old reb

[Communication]

Originally posted by old-reb
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

“First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me.”

I don't support the jews because of their religion or manners or how they think of me. I support them because Islam is doing the most horrible thing known to man, the genocide of a race.

old reb

I'll take it, old reb!

[Communication]

Oh, one more thing...SteveMetch, when the US turns into a battle zone and our schools and buses and resturants are being blown up in our cities on a daily basis, then we can revisit your theory. Maybe you're right, but I'm not convinced that Israel wouldn't trade land for peace tomorrow if the Palestinians were truly ready for it.

[SteveMetch]

Originally posted by Communication
Oh, one more thing...SteveMetch, when the US turns into a battle zone and our schools and buses and resturants are being blown up in our cities on a daily basis, then we can revisit your theory. Maybe you're right, but I'm not convinced that Israel wouldn't trade land for peace tomorrow if the Palestinians were truly ready for it.

That’s the point. They will not get Peace for the Land they trade. Enough of them know that it will merely shift the battle lines if Arafat and Company are in charge of the Arab state. If that is the case then they midst well get the land since they will be at war with these SOB as long as they practice the Islam of the Koran. At least they will have the land as a consolation for all the murders. The Jordan river will make a good barrier.

[Alfred]

Originally posted by Communication

Stop making inflamatory statements, stop pushing us around, stop the threats, stop whining, and stop insulting our intelligence.......


Are you SURE you want to be a lawyer?? If you think that I have been doing the above then you are in for a rude awakening when you hit the real world. Lawyers are more dangerous than guns in our society, they cause more pain, anquish and discord among communities than any rifle or shotgun... I hope you discover a few facts of the real world and become a bit more thick-skinned before you pass the Bar. No insult intended, just amazement.


Old-Reb:

Yes you are right, I am not saying that Communication is doing all these things. But I want to be as frank as I can be; the PUBLIC FACE on most of these anti-Christian acts happen to be Jewish; therefore it is the Jews (albeit Lefties) that will be blamed along with some Kennedy-Catholics for most of these acts. Right or wrong, that is what is happening. Most of the ACLU big shots here in Utah- and they are actually going town to town searching for two missing Ten Commandment statues that were given to local governments, who then hid them when the ACLU started suing- are Jewish. We WASP types are about ready to string them up (quasi figuratively) as this is probably the tenth anti-religious stupidity they have pulled; including a Jewish girl and the ACLU suing a high school choir for singing a song that mentioned God....one that had been sung in that school for 90 years.

Krauthammer (who is Jewish) wrote something to that effect a while ago. He is spot on.

Originally posted by Frizzer1

However the christian fundamentalists have made it clear that for Armageddon to occur, the jews must be ingathered to Israel..and at that time jesus will return & all the jews will convert..(or go to hell, I presume).And so they support Israel in it's war with the arabs.
Should we love them when in effect they want to see Israel's destruction and that of world jewry just as the arabs do, but in a different way & a different time?
When they begin to support Israel because we have right on our side and not for their own objectives I will appreciate their support as well.


Frizzer:

With all due respect, I think you misunderstand what the Christians believe. At least, I think you have drawn the wrong conclusion. The Christians believe that Armageddon WILL occur and that the Jews WILL be ingathered to Israel. I don't think many believe that they are speeding things up by getting Jews to move to Israel. If they do, they obviously think God doesn't have his own timetable. I personally believe that the Jews will be ingathered as the world becomes more and more corrupt and wicked. It is not too much of a leap to imagine Jews leaving Europe.

Most believe that when the Jewish Messiah arrives as predicted by Jewish prophets, they will discover that the Messiah happens to be Jesus. At that time everybody will be on the same team. Which is why my church has a hands off approach with regard to missionary work amongst the Jews. The Jewish Messiah and the Christian Jesus will turn out to be the same person...most Christians believe.

I think that to convert "Israel will be destroyed" to "we want Israel to be destroyed" is taking it too far. I don't think any Christian wants Israel to be destroyed....but we all see it coming. Some have gone to live in Israel perhaps to be part of the whole ugly but foretold mess.

Take me for instance. I would call myself a fairly conservative Christian. Yet I want Israel to fight back against the Arabs. That is my biggest frustration with Israel at the moment...they are acting like a bunch of old, frightened women (the governments, both Likud and Labor..they are practically the same).

And yet, I fully believe that in the near future...probably in my lifetime, that the Arabs States will surround Israel (for real), invade and destroy most of her. I fully believe that. Then the Messiah comes. Yet, I want Israel to defend herself. I am not trying to thwart Gods plan. But every man, woman and child has God-given right to defend themselves.

What I do believe however, is that unless Israel gets back to its roots, all is lost. Every time Israel has turned away from their God (not mine, but yours), they have been destroyed, banished or conquered. You have history as your guide. Assyria, Babylonia, Greece, Rome, Islam?

That doesn't mean I enjoy watching it happen....or watching the bad guys win.

So, in a nutshell, we believe that Israel has a right to be where it is, we believe that Israel has a right to defend itself, and most of us believe that Israel will be partially destroyed just prior to the arrival of the Jewish Messiah...who we happen to be a big fan of.

I have never heard any other Christian plan...so if you other Christians on the board have your own ideas, please speak up.

[Alfred]

ooops, mistake. First one this year:)

[Frans_1]

According to the Bible, the promise is that Israel will never be destroyed. But will definitely get into a huge mess, prior to the problems being solved.

[Frans_1]

That is my biggest frustration with Israel at the moment...they are acting like a bunch of old, frightened women (the governments, both Likud and Labor..they are practically the same).

The same people who thirty years ago were no wafflers are so now.

[Communication]

Originally posted by SteveMetch
The Jordan river will make a good barrier.

I don't think so. Have you actually been to Israel and seen the Jordan river?

Alfred- I'm having a hard time telling the difference between what people on this board accused andak of and what you actually do. There is a thread somewhere by abu afak on the three rules for Muslims. Read it. Other than that, why not just give it a rest?

[Communication]

Originally posted by Frans_1
That is my biggest frustration with Israel at the moment...they are acting like a bunch of old, frightened women (the governments, both Likud and Labor..they are practically the same).

The same people who thirty years ago were no wafflers are so now.

what do you propose Israel do?

[SteveMetch]

Originally posted by Communication
I don't think so. Have you actually been to Israel and seen the Jordan river?

Alfred- I'm having a hard time telling the difference between what people on this board accused andak of and what you actually do. There is a thread somewhere by abu afak on the three rules for Muslims. Read it. Other than that, why not just give it a rest?

I know its more of stream and at some points a muddy ditch do to water use. With the current population trends water maybe the next flash point in the Middle East.

[Frans_1]

what do you propose Israel do?

I really wish I could give a sincere answer. However, as I said, Israel is in a huge mess and is only digging herself deeper . I honestly don't see a way out.

When Jews are in pain, wherever they may be in the world, I am in pain, physically, mentally, I become ill. When a Christian feels the same way about Jewish suffering, then I consider them to be a member of my family.

I can only watch those young Israeli lives be wasted and destroyed with a very heavy heart. I wonder what they could do if they were allowed to be. Try as some might, they are not comparable with the person who has no thought of doing something constructive for his family or his society but just straps on a bomb belt as a quick ticket to what he thinks is heaven.

Or that person could argue that by blowing up Jews on a bus is
helping his people.

as a light aside, communication, I'm not too keen on lawyers either, considering what i've personally been through .... :)

[TheyAre]

The only reason someone needs to support Israel is logic.

What can Israel do? Israel can, at some point, figuratively give the international community the finger and finally start cleaning up the mess, or Israel can eventually be destroyed by Palestinian terror and international hand-wringing, moral relativism, and restraints placed on it by other countries who "want peace."

[Communication]

Originally posted by Frans_1
[B]

as a light aside, communication, I'm not too keen on lawyers either, considering what i've personally been through .... :)


I wanted to go to rabbinical school and I'm just being practical, or so they tell me. :rolleyes:

[Frans_1]

If you consider yourself a member of the House of Israel, and I assume most Christians do....

Communication, could you elaborate on your meaning of the phrase "House of Israel" ?