Secrets the Arabs don't want you to know

[NewsGuy]

Seeing further reports this weekend from US and Israeli intelligence officials about a secret arms and financing agreement between Iran and the Palestinians, made me think of this and other “secrets” that the Arabs don’t want the world to know.

Generally speaking, the Arabs tend to conceal a few topics from the Western world:

1. Arab vs. Arab violence. (See Photos (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3054))

2. Government repression of Arab populations.

3. Arab countries’ development of weapons of mass destruction.

4. Basic Arab hatred of the US and the West in general and
overwhelming popular support for terrorism against Israel and the West. (See Photos (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3070))

5. Arab popular and official racism and religious repression towards Jews and Christians.

6. Terrorism-supporting activities of Arabs living in Western countries.

7. The organized effort paid for by Arab governments to spread anti-Semitism around the world.

8. Modern-day slavery that still exists in some Arab countries.

Please keep in mind that this is not an attempt to engage in baseless Arab-bashing. Rather, in this thread, I invite our readers to discuss these topics as they affect the Israeli/Arab conflict, as well as how these factors affect Arab relations with the West. As usual, we encourage feedback from our Arab readers, as well.

[Anti-Intifada]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

4. Basic Arab hatred of the US and the West in general and
overwhelming popular support for terrorism against Israel and the West.


Most Americans have no idea that every day the US flag is burnt in the Palestinian streets and the Arabs shout "Death to America."

The foreign reporters have their lives threatened by Arafat that if those pictures are shown then the reporters will be killed Arab style like Danny Pearl.

They hate the US not becuase of Israel but because the US has freedom and democracy which is exactly opposite what the Arab society believes in.

[Roland]

Has anything changed yet?

[andak01]

Can I respond?

Seeing further reports this weekend from US and Israeli intelligence officials about a secret arms and financing agreement between Iran and the Palestinians, made me think of this and other “secrets” that the Arabs don’t want the world to know.

Generally speaking, the Arabs tend to conceal a few topics from the Western world:

1. Arab vs. Arab violence. (See Photos (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3054))

How is this a secret? It isn't, so don't make it a point that Arabs conceal it.

2. Government repression of Arab populations.

Again, you have dissidents writing in every newspaper about that. It's common knowledge. So why are you saying it's a secret?

3. Arab countries’ development of weapons of mass destruction.

That one would be a secret, because that sort of thing is always a secret. The one's like North Korea that actually are close to developing WMDs like to tout it as a point of national defense. They know that we do not attack countries that actually have WMDs and we never have.

4. Basic Arab hatred of the US and the West in general and
overwhelming popular support for terrorism against Israel and the West. (See Photos (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3070))

Overwhelming? That's an exaggeration. And if it were true, I'd think you'd want to encourage the minority rather than put them in a position that they feel as threatened as the terrorists.

5. Arab popular and official racism and religious repression towards Jews and Christians.

I think it's quite a real problem. Pressure is being put upon those states to cease and desist. And there have been some victories, but a ways yet to go. On the other hand, having travelled in several Arabic countries as a Christian and even now being mistaken for one, I can say that you don't get killed in the street or beaten up for admitting your religion. There is an exaggeration of a very real problem, and that's not helping to resolve things.

6. Terrorism-supporting activities of Arabs living in Western countries.

I assume this has been pretty much of a failure since we aren't actually witnessing activity but rather foiled plots and arrests.

7. The organized effort paid for by Arab governments to spread anti-Semitism around the world.

Whereas, there hasn't been any converse activity among Jews to spread anti-Arab sentiment around the world?

8. Modern-day slavery that still exists in some Arab countries.

Whereas, modern-day slavery doesn't exist in non-Arab nations in the form of sex slavery and sweat shops???

Please keep in mind that this is not an attempt to engage in baseless Arab-bashing. Rather, in this thread, I invite our readers to discuss these topics as they affect the Israeli/Arab conflict, as well as how these factors affect Arab relations with the West. As usual, we encourage feedback from our Arab readers, as well.

OK, I'm discussing. Two problems with the subject of this thread. These issues aren't secret and they aren't unique to Arabs.

[Soummoud]

Please keep in mind that this is not an attempt to engage in baseless Arab-bashing. Rather, in this thread, I invite our readers to discuss these topics as they affect the Israeli/Arab conflict, as well as how these factors affect Arab relations with the West. As usual, we encourage feedback from our Arab readers, as well.

Generally speaking, the Arabs tend to conceal a few topics from the Western world:

1. Arab vs. Arab violence. (See Photos (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3054))

blah blah blah....
Thankfully Secret Agent NewsGuy is here to reveal these secrets the evil Arabs have concealed from the world.

Imagine, till now, no-one knew of "Arab vs Arab violence". Iraq is vitually unknown, kept quite by a small cabal of Arabs who own and control the media.

[Mediocrates]

You miss the wider point, thank you. It's not that it exists, it's that no one really cares or worries or obsesses over it the way they like to point to one dead goat and screech Jewish warcrime etc etc etc etc.

[andak01]

You miss the wider point, thank you. It's not that it exists, it's that no one really cares or worries or obsesses over it the way they like to point to one dead goat and screech Jewish warcrime etc etc etc etc.

One dead goat, several hundred civilians, whose counting? Anyway, in the case of the Iraq civil war, who would you blame and what would you do? There are numerous parties involved and they have differing motivations which change with the times. It's not that it's being ignored, but that there isn't any clear solution. A lot of good it is to say "bad Iraqis". And don't forget, this shift towards religious extremism in government was not there prior to the US invasion. Saddam was a rat bastard, but he was a secular rat bastard, not a Shiite mullah.

[Soummoud]

You miss the wider point, thank you. It's not that it exists, it's that no one really cares or worries or obsesses over it the way they like to point to one dead goat and screech Jewish warcrime etc etc etc etc.

Yes, yes, yes, no one "worries or obsesses" over Iraq.

The BBC is not worried, here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6039626.stm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6038990.stm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6037243.stm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6034975.stm), here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6032929.stm) or here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6035411.stm). That's from today and yesterday.

Care to enlighten us further?

Please resume your seat.

[Mediocrates]

Again though - no one's really listening. Arab on arab violence is like telling your kids to eat all their green vegetables because children in Asia are starving. I'm not sure if that's good or bad if we all plan to do nothing about it at all but in either case it's awfully selective. From the point of view of our 'opinion leaders' in media, politics and the everpresent NGO's it's as if Arab on Arab violence is like the public health differences between rich white people and poor black people.

So who would I blame? I wouldn't blame anyone. There'e no point in it. The British army was there for 37 years; a lot of damn good that did. They understood that colonialism implies your colonies are as fundamentally ungovernable as your will to spend your treasure overlording them. Every government they've ever had was because one maniac killed the last maniac. So on we go looking at them from out the windows of the bus wondering what on God's Grey Earth the point of it is. I just wish sometimes people, our opinion leaders would put it in perspective. OK so let's focus our every effort, every though on reinventing one tiny country with fewer people in it than London. And let's ensure that they are politically beat over the head thousands of times for decades and decades. But there's clearly something else at play when we can afford to ignore everything else.

[Sumud]

Again though - no one's really listening. .
It's a big secret.....uh, it's not but, it's not widely reported.....oh, it is widely reported, but no one really notices.....

It's that damn cabal of rich Arabs controlling the world media that I blame......:D

[NewsGuy]

How is this a secret? It isn't, so don't make it a point that Arabs conceal it.
It's always interesting to see how things have changed (or not) over the course of a few years.

I started this thread in 2002, and most, if not all of it is still relevant 4 years later.

Referring to Arab vs. Arab violence, things have changed slightly, but not all that much. Much of what used to be a guarded secret of the totalitarian Arab regimes has been splashed all over the TV screens in the past few years.

In 2002 it was concealed, but now we see each day the incredible savagery of Muslims bombing each other's mosques, markets, beheading each other by the hundreds, and throwing each others' dismembered, tortured bodies in middle of the streets.

In the past year alone, we've seen outrageous scenes from the Muslim world: From the train bombing in Mumbai (which had plenty of Muslims on it), to Shia-Sunni slaughter in Baghdad, Kirkuk and Karachi, to the ongoing genocide in Darfur and elsewhere in Asia and Africa. We've also been exposed to the Palestinian method of crowd control, which consists of firing live ammunition into the crowds of their own Muslim brothers.

We also saw College dorm rooms covered wall-to-wall with the blood of Muslim students in Iran, for daring to ask for something other than a Muslim dictatorship.

Of course, there's more "secret" violence by the Syrian, Saudi Arabian, and Egyptian governments against their local "Muslim Brotherhoods," and of course, the run-of-the-mill Muslim honor killings and forced clitorectomies.

In 2002, the media did not broadcast much of this type of violence. While Muslim vs. Muslim savagery was known to exist, I can tell you that I personally never came across anyone other than Americans talking about it, and even so, it was very sparingly.

The only Arab vs. Arab violence that was widely discussed, was the Lebanese massacre of their own countrymen, which they blamed on Ariel Sharon -- not Samir Geagea. It was practically a secret that the slaughter was committed by Arabs against other Arabs, and there was nearly never a discussion about the Palestinian slaughter of the Christian Arabs that preceded that event.

Anyway, there was never discussion about any Arab vs. Arab massacre that I recall.

What's changed in 2006? Well, there now is a great desire to portray the Bush administration as losing in Iraq, so the sectarian violence is being broadcast nightly (which is actually the right thing to do, but not for the right reason).

We now also have an explosion in the number and popularity of personal blogs, which were not so prevalent in 2002, and we now see the beginning of Arab expatriates criticizing their totalitarian regimes form the safety of their new non-Muslim countries.

Still, what has not changed is that we never see much discussion or criticism from the Muslims about bombings in mosques, nor even about the genocide in Darfur. The only outrage is voiced against the Danish anti-Muhammad cartoons. While there is no more secrecy these days about Arab savagery, there still is no big discussion or outcry that has any impact on Muslim society, which still glorifies violence and hatred like no other society. So, much of this is no longer a secret – there’s just a loud silence.


OK, I'm discussing. Two problems with the subject of this thread. These issues aren't secret and they aren't unique to Arabs.
I intend to address the other points you made, but for lack of time at this moment, I'll just focus on the main ones, including your conclusion. I think that much of these topics are not secrets among two people, but they are subjects that are certainly not being discussed at all, or if they are being discussed, they are marginalized. The Arab and Muslim world is to preoccupied with its hatred of Jews and Christians to deal with its own savagery. Yes, a handful of dissidents dares to point out the failings of their former governments and that's an improvement. But, in general, the Muslim culture still glorifies violence and Jihad and the Muslim world is silent and secretive about its own brutality, Jihads and genocide.

To be sure, violence and savagery are not unique to the Muslim world. It exists in every country and every city. But nowhere is the situation as prevalent and on such a large-scale as in the Muslim world.

[andak01]

It's always interesting to see how things have changed (or not) over the course of a few years.

I started this thread in 2002, and most, if not all of it is still relevant 4 years later.

And in the past 4 years we've see thousands die in terrorist attacks, and over 100,000 civilians killed by non-Muslims. Yesterday's report from the Lancet says that over 600,000 Iraqis have died since the preemptive invasion. That includes those who couldn't receive even rudamentary medical treatment that would have been available under Saddam. You know, Saddam Hussein is a pretty damn low bar to come up to on a humanitarian scale. The US has failed even that miserable mark.

And that's just Iraq. Don't even bother to count the innocents killed in Afghanistan and the wedding party blown away at the border of Pakistan. All of that violence should be ignored, because we are really interested in what all those violent Arabs are up to.

Forget the fact that many of those Arabs on Arabs are firing American made weapons and using hand-me-down urban fighting methods they learned via the CIA and the Mujjahideen. And let's focus our attention on Clinton and forget that Reagan was selling WMDs to Saddam and arming Iran at the same time! Let's forget that Reagan held the Mujjahideen up as the moral equivalent of the founding fathers of America.

No. Let's begin at zero, where the people on the ground shooting at planes are the violent ones and those invasion forces with their bombs are conveniently erased out of the picture. Let's focus on Arab systems of government and their lack of democracy and forget that the democratically elected Mossadegh was removed from office by a CIA project and Saddam was put in by another and the democratically elected Aristide was ousted by rebels in American helicoptors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax

No. Let us begin at zero. The Arabs have no history, no possessions that cannot be seized and no land. Dispite the ziggurats on one horizon and the sky scrapers on the other, they have no civilization, have made no contributions and have suffered from noone. Let us tell the story that way, beginning at zero and dehumanize them in the manner of the American Indian while invading and seizing their assets. They are the irrational savages for not accepting their manifest destiny.

[NewsGuy]

Can I respond?
Again, you have dissidents writing in every newspaper about that. It's common knowledge. So why are you saying it's a secret?
In the Arab press there are no dissenters discussing Arab vs. Arab misdeeds, because it is not a free press that supports dissenters -- it is a state-run system of propaganda that only criticizes Israel and the U.S.

Internal abuses and sectarian violence, along with the rest of the poverty and turmoil in the Muslim world is largely hidden in most Arab countries.

There are a few independent Arab newspapers, protected by their Western hosts, but those newspapers are never distributed in Arab countries.

That one would be a secret, because that sort of thing is always a secret. The one's like North Korea that actually are close to developing WMDs like to tout it as a point of national defense. They know that we do not attack countries that actually have WMDs and we never have.
Regarding WMD, the Arabs keep it a secret because their arsenal of chemical and biological weapons violates international law.

As for not attacking countries with WMD, the US attacked Iraq and Libya, both of which had WMD, including chemical and nuclear weapons in progress. Saddam was smart enough to hide them by the time of the US invasion, but I think that the people of Halabja can attest to his WMD.

btw - Why was the Muslim world so hush-hush about the 500,000 bodies unearthed in Iraq? Or about halabja for that matter? Compare the amount of ink dedicated by the Arab press to complain about Israel vs. the amount of coverage given to the Halabja incident or to Saddam's 500,000 Muslim victims. Your conclusion?



I can say that you don't get killed in the street or beaten up for admitting your religion. There is an exaggeration of a very real problem, and that's not helping to resolve things.
Not if you ask Daniel Pearl's widow...


I assume this has been pretty much of a failure since we aren't actually witnessing activity but rather foiled plots and arrests.
Not in London and Madrid.

And the reason that so many terrorist plots are foiled is because Western countries are forced to spend a big chunk of their national budgets to protect against Islamic terrorism.


Whereas, there hasn't been any converse activity among Jews to spread anti-Arab sentiment around the world?
There are certainly Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc. who express negative opinions about Arabs.

But there is no institutionalized anti-Arab indoctrination, as there is anti-Semitic and anti-Christian indoctrination in the Muslim world. None of the Jews I've ever met was ever raised to hate Arabs -- even those who had every reason to do so. In fact, for me, as child growing up in Israel, I was always taught "Respect and suspect" Israeli and Palestinian Arabs.

Of course, after 9-11, seeing the incredible danger so many Arabs pose to every country in which they they live, from the US to Europe to Africa to Asia, many people of all religions have come to view Arabs negatively. Some of this is justified and some is not. But the negative view of the Arabs is due to the actions of their fellow Arabs and the failure of their society to disengage from the terrorists. It is no one else's fault, though the situation is unfortunate.

Whereas, modern-day slavery doesn't exist in non-Arab nations in the form of sex slavery and sweat shops???
Sweat shops are not slavery. They're a different issue.

In other countries, slavery is illegal and carries heavy penalties. In much of the Muslim world, it is accepted as a way of life.

[andak01]

Sweat shops are not slavery. They're a different issue.

In other countries, slavery is illegal and carries heavy penalties. In much of the Muslim world, it is accepted as a way of life.

I was in New York when they busted sweat shops in Chinatown where the women were literally chained to their chairs.

The Chinese Staff and Workers Association (CSWA), a New York-based watchdog group, contends that shop owners regularly withhold wages and overtime for the workers there because they know that the Chinese-speaking immigrant workforce is largely unable or unwilling to complain to officials.

Chinatown shop owners pay their garment assembly workers only some three dollars an hour, more than two dollars an hour below the legal minimum, says CSWA Executive Director Wing Lam. "Chinatown is 90 percent unionized, but 80 percent of those workers (in both union and non-union shops) make below minimum wage," Lam says.
...
In recent years, however, dozens of cases have drawn attention to the persistence of sweatshops. A 1995 federal raid on an isolated plant in El Monte, California, found dozens of young Thai women working in locked quarters under conditions that investigators compared to slavery.


Last month a court in American Samoa ordered a garment factory to pay $3.5 million to 270 workers from China and Vietnam. The court described workers cheated of wages, beaten and deprived of food, something that should never have occurred anywhere, much less on American territory. But while the exploitation in the Daewoosa factory was egregious, it is not isolated. On Saipan, the largest island of the American Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas, federal investigators have documented mistreatment of workers.

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/9711a/nysweat.html

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/investigative/2001/sweats.shtml

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/saipan/43.html

Human traf

Main article: Traffic in human beings
Traf in human beings, sometimes called human traf, or sex traf (as the majority of victims are women or children forced into prostitution) is not the same as people smuggling. A smuggler will facilitate illegal entry into a country for a fee, but on arrival at their destination, the smuggled person is free; the traf victim is enslaved. Victims do not agree to be trafficked: they are tricked, lured by false promises, or forced into it. Traffickers use coercive tactics including deception, fraud, intimidation, isolation, threat and use of physical force, debt bondage or even force-feeding with drugs of abuse to control their victims. Whilst the majority of victims are women, and sometimes children, forced into prostitution, other victims include men, women and children forced into manual labor.

Due to the illegal nature of traf, the exact extent is unknown. A US Government report published in 2003, estimates that 800,000-900,000 people worldwide are trafficked across borders each year. This figure does not include those who are trafficked internally.


This is slavery. It is a worldwide problem and one that Muslims and Arabs can become part of a coalition against. Muhammad (SAW) proscribed the freeing of slaves through manumission (buying their freedom) which he practiced himself. He also encouraged Muslims to marry and provide for slaves rather than keep them as chattle. He married at least one slave. I will mention that Thomas Jefferson owned around 200 slaves. He did not marry any of them. He did at least free the children he bore by them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Slavery_today

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/slaves/stanton.html

[andak01]

Newsguy,

I'm sure you think of yourself as insightful and I don't mean to rain on your parade, but you seem to be stuck in this notion -- and if you think about it, it's a very racist notion -- that the main problem are Arabs, rather than Islam. How many Christian Arabs (no matter how much they would hate Jews) have you seen blow themselves up in front a crowd, waiting in line outside a Tel Aviv nightclub?

No. But they used to strap bombs to other people and make them drive into buildings in Northern Ireland. The Basque Separatists are Christian. The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is Christian.

And as for the main problem being Islam rather than Arabs, go back before Islam. The Jews didn't have any trouble THEN did they? And take the Arabs completely away from medieval history, you'd still be wearing yellow stars in Prague and be evicted from England, from France. You'd still have that thing...the Holocaust, without Arabs or Muslims. One of the biggest problems I see is that European anti-semitism translated so well to the Arabs, not that Arab anti-semitism was unique, it wasn't and isn't.

In the US, where people love the Jews, the highest incident of hate crimes by far is against Jews.

[Hebrew Swede]

No. But they used to strap bombs to other people and make them drive into buildings in Northern Ireland. The Basque Separatists are Christian. The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda is Christian.

This will be about the 20th time you repeat that dull argument. What you're rambling about is regional terrorism, not global terrorism that is spawned and supported by a totalitarian political/religious doctrine.

And as for the main problem being Islam rather than Arabs, go back before Islam. The Jews didn't have any trouble THEN did they?

Islam came into existence to end Arab tribal warfare and savagery and unite them under All-h. The problem is that the inventor of Islam, Muhammad, was an Arab himself and was raised with the same Arab savage mentality. Hence, Islam has inherited ancient Arab savagery. This is unfortunate, since I believe that all peoples that have had a savage past can progress and become civilized. But Islam makes this impossible and is holding Arabs back. Wafa Sultan stands out as a good example, how civilized an Arab can become if they turn away from Islam.

And take the Arabs completely away from medieval history, you'd still be wearing yellow stars in Prague and be evicted from England, from France.

It's funny you should mention the 'yellow badge,' since it was first introduced by a caliph in Baghdad in the 9th century and then later spread to the West.

You'd still have that thing...the Holocaust, without Arabs or Muslims.

Yes, and Nazism is a totalitarian ideology just like Islam. Usama bin Laden has been granted a fatwa by a Muslim cleric to kill up to 10 million Americans, including women and children. You wouldn't have that thing without Islam, would you?

One of the biggest problems I see is that European anti-Semitism translated so well to the Arabs, not that Arab anti-Semitism was unique, it wasn't and isn't.

Arab and European anti-Semitism both feed off each other, but Arab anti-Semitism seems to be somewhat less focused on racial characteristics of Jews.

In the US, where people love the Jews, the highest incident of hate crimes by far is against Jews.

You must think I'm stupid. Am I to believe that Jews are bashed worse than Blacks, Chicanos or Gays in America? Secondly, anti-Semitism in America differs by region. Are you really saying that a Jew should feel less safe in L.A. than Pakistan? And what constitutes a hate crime? A Mel Gibson DUI speech? The latest and most severe anti-Semitic crime I saw in America was a Muslim Pakistani walking into the Jewish Federation bldg in Seattle and blasting a gun at innocent women, killing one and injuring six.

[andak01]

In the US, where people love the Jews, the highest incident of hate crimes by far is against Jews.

You must think I'm stupid. Am I to believe that Jews are bashed worse than Blacks, Chicanos or Gays in America?

I do think you are stupid, but in this case, I owe you a correction. That should have read: In the US, where people love the Jews, the highest incident of religiously motivated hate crimes by far is against Jews. Meaning that where there are almost no Muslims, Jews are still the greatest victim of religiously motivated hate crime. Don't worry, Muslims are catching up.

Of the 1,480 reported offenses within single-bias incidents that were motivated by the offender’s religious bias, 67.8 percent were anti-Jewish, 13.0 percent were anti-Islamic, 3.9 percent were anti-Catholic, 2.9 percent were anti-Protestant, and 0.5 percent were anti-Atheism or Agnosticism. Bias against other (unspecified) religions accounted for 9.5 percent of the hate crime offenses motivated by religious bias, and bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group) accounted for 2.5 percent.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/section1.htm

Secondly, anti-Semitism in America differs by region. Are you really saying that a Jew should feel less safe in L.A. than Pakistan?

No. I didn't say that. But, depending on the neighborhood, it could be true. :rolleyes:


And what constitutes a hate crime? A Mel Gibson DUI speech? The latest and most severe anti-Semitic crime I saw in America was a Muslim Pakistani walking into the Jewish Federation bldg in Seattle and blasting a gun at innocent women, killing one and injuring six.


I haven't seen the statistics from 2006, but based on 2004, murder is a pretty unusual type of hate crime. In 2004 there was only one religious bias murder against an atheist (guess that's a religion).

Most anti-Jewish hate crimes fell into the category of intimidation or crimes against property. I myself am a victim of property crime, since the mosque that I worship at was vandalized.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/hctable4.htm

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2004/section1.htm

[Hebrew Swede]

Andak,

Comment my entire post, instead of rambling excessively about one issue.

[andak01]

This will be about the 20th time you repeat that dull argument. What you're rambling about is regional terrorism, not global terrorism that is spawned and supported by a totalitarian political/religious doctrine.

It might be a dull argument to you. It's quite inconvenient when you are trying to portray Muslims as the world's only terrorists. There are many non-Muslim terrorist groups that kill innocent women and children around the world. The Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka is one. Aum Shinriko, if they had had their way would have used anthrax on downtown Tokyo.

Islam came into existence to end Arab tribal warfare and savagery and unite them under All-h. The problem is that the inventor of Islam, Muhammad, was an Arab himself and was raised with the same Arab savage mentality. Hence, Islam has inherited ancient Arab savagery.

So he was subject to some sort of genetic savagery? That's not racist... NOOOOOOOOO. How about this, since Islam's predecessor was the religion of Joshua, perhaps they inherited their savagery from his example of killing men, women, children and even cattle and seizing their assets.

This is unfortunate, since I believe that all peoples that have had a savage past can progress and become civilized.

What is your definition of civilized?

But Islam makes this impossible and is holding Arabs back. Wafa Sultan stands out as a good example, how civilized an Arab can become if they turn away from Islam.

What has she achieved that is so civilized? On the contrary, we have a Nobel Peace Prize to a Muslim founder of the Gameen Bank that permits third world women to obtain loans. That's civilized, not becoming a beacon of hatred.

It's funny you should mention the 'yellow badge,' since it was first introduced by a caliph in Baghdad in the 9th century and then later spread to the West.

If that's true, and I'm not sure it is, then it took pretty well. That anti-semitism has endured in Europe through the Crusades to the Holocaust and on to neo-Nazis. But total expulsion of the Jews and seizing their assets, that's a European invention. Baking them by the millions, the West invented that system.

Yes, and Nazism is a totalitarian ideology just like Islam.

Except that all of Islamic terrorism has managed to take out some buildings, some planes and a few trains at the cost of around 10,000 lives. Nazism took out a continent.

Usama bin Laden has been granted a fatwa by a Muslim cleric to kill up to 10 million Americans, including women and children.[quote]

Individual Muslims don't create fatwas in Sunni Islam. Perhaps an Ayatollah can do so in Shiism, but that cannot happen. You don't know what you are talking about.

[quote]Arab and European anti-Semitism both feed off each other, but Arab anti-Semitism seems to be somewhat less focused on racial characteristics of Jews.

Arab anti-Semitism is focused on Israel. It has no interest in the Jewish religion which is a Muslim's brother religion. It has no interest in Jews who follow the covenent. It is entirely focused on the Zionist Enterprise and how much of a threat it is to Arabic hegemony in the Middle East. You take the most rabid Islamofacist you want to point to, he doesn't want to kill all the Jews, he wants the Jews out of Israel. This is pure politics mascarading as religion. If any Muslim on the face of the earth hates a Jew (and I don't) it will be for one of two reasons. That Jew invoked attacks on them, or that Jew supports Israel.

Well, there is no state of Israel in the Quran. The Jews who are sanctioned there are sanctioned because they didn't honor the Sabbath or follow the covenent. Allah doesn't teach moral lessons about Israel in the Quran.


I break with the politics. I support a future for the state of Israel. But I still reserve the right to criticize those policies of a state that I find unsettling.

[Yala]

If any Muslim on the face of the earth hates a Jew (and I don't) it will be for one of two reasons. That Jew invoked attacks on them, or that Jew supports Israel.



Well by your standards Muslims hate 97% of Jews b/c let's be honest 97% of us support Israel. But I, for one, know many Muslims who have more problems with Arabs than Israelis. And although most Arabs will say they support Palestinians we all know they don't give a about them and they are looked down on. They won't even make them citizens of their countries for G-d's sake. The situation is not black and white.

You take the most rabid Islamofacist you want to point to, he doesn't want to kill all the Jews, he wants the Jews out of Israel.

Right and when Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said he is glad the Jews of the world are gathering in Israel so it will be easier to kill them he was just trying to be humorous. ;)

[andak01]

Well by your standards Muslims hate 97% of Jews b/c let's be honest 97% of us support Israel. But I, for one, know many Muslims who have more problems with Arabs than Israelis. And although most Arabs will say they support Palestinians we all know they don't give a about them and they are looked down on. They won't even make them citizens of their countries for G-d's sake. The situation is not black and white.

No, it isn't black and white. And even if someone hates you, it doesn't mean that they are going to do you harm. You can even hate someone and do business with them. It happens all the time. There are Arabs in the American military and the CIA. There are Arabs on the other side. Setting out this lie that all Arabs and Muslims are satanic Nazis is not helpful.

Right and when Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah said he is glad the Jews of the world are gathering in Israel so it will be easier to kill them he was just trying to be humorous. ;)

That's about as humerous as the five or six people saying nuke Mecca last week. Pity this guy has risen twenty percent in popularity among average Lebanese Christians and Muslims since the war.

[Yala]

Setting out this lie that all Arabs and Muslims are satanic Nazis is not helpful.

Dude, that is ridiculous, I have never said anything even close to that. I don't think all Muslims are evil at all in fact I probably have more Muslim friends then you do and some are practically family. I only say and have always said that there is a tidal wave of Anti-Jewishness in the middle east and if you don't want to face that fact, that's not my issue. And it has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with political perversions of Islam. That is my stance anyway.

Pity this guy has risen twenty percent in popularity among average Lebanese Christians and Muslims since the war.

100% of Lebanese can support Hezbollah for all I care. They will wind up destroying Lebanon and not my country so be it and good for them. They will get what they deserve.

[andak01]

I'm sorry, but your location says California. Is Israel "your country"? Are you a citizen of the United States? Because becoming a citizen requires one to swear allegiance to America, not to Israel. So I assume you must be a transplanted emmigrant, not an American citizen.

[Yala]

I'm sorry, but your location says California. Is Israel "your country"? Are you a citizen of the United States? Because becoming a citizen requires one to swear allegiance to America, not to Israel. So I assume you must be a transplanted emmigrant, not an American citizen.

I am talking about America. What does Israel have to do with anything? Let me rephrase it so you can understand it better:

100% of Lebanese can support Hezbollah for all I care. They will wind up destroying Lebanon and not America so be it and good for them. They will get what they deserve.

Anyway I have allegiance to Israel like you have alligiance to Palestine. I have family there and they have built Israel from the ground up. Besides, the goals of Israel and America are not different, at odds or mutually exclusive. We are both working to destroy the terrorists from this planet. I really don't think it's that hard to understand. If anything it is people like you who should be worrying about allegiance to America while your precious Hamas declares war on us* in Time Magazine.

*By "us" I mean America in case any further clarification was needed lest I be accused of being an emmigrant from someone who surely does not have a history as far back in this country as mine.

[andak01]

Let me get this straight- Hezbollah is going to destroy America? Is that what you are saying? Has Hezbollah been implicated in any attacks against America or American troops anywhere? I wasn't aware of that.

Understand that I want Hezbollah to fail in favor of Lebanese democracy. But America standing by and watching as first escape routes were bombed and then civilians were told to use them and bombed while escaping has done more to destablize the region than Hezbollah themselves. And mind you, Hezbollah is bad enough. We could have taken a more moderate stance kinder to the Lebanese rather than watch them all be punished as a group.

[Yala]

Let me get this straight- Hezbollah is going to destroy America? Is that what you are saying?


Do you have a problem with English or only in regards to my post? You were saying too bad Hezbollah rose 20% in popularity in Lebanon. So I said who cares-meaning if Hezbollah controls all of Lebanon they will destroy LEBANON and NOT AMERICA. Can i say it any clearer?


Has Hezbollah been implicated in any attacks against America or American troops anywhere? I wasn't aware of that.


Understand that I want Hezbollah to fail in favor of Lebanese democracy. But America standing by and watching as first escape routes were bombed and then civilians were told to use them and bombed while escaping has done more to destablize the region than Hezbollah themselves. And mind you, Hezbollah is bad enough. We could have taken a more moderate stance kinder to the Lebanese rather than watch them all be punished as a group.

Have you not watched any American news stations during the war when almost every single history expert has said that Hezbollah was the one responsible for the bombing of the American Marine peacekeepers in Beirut killing 241 Marines???? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51133 Do you understand Bush when he says he will not deal with terrorists? America helped Lebanon in the best way possible-by pushing Syria out. And even though Lebanese will say they hate America they know deep down America did them the biggest favor of all by getting rid of the Assad Regime. If they let Hezbollah in their gov't they went against us so it is THEIR problem. And they will be the ones to pay as we saw right now in this last war and as we will see again as HA further attempts to divide Lebanese society.

[andak01]

100% of Lebanese can support Hezbollah for all I care. They will wind up destroying Lebanon and not my country so be it and good for them. They will get what they deserve.

100% of Lebanese can support Hezbollah for all I care. They will wind up destroying Lebanon and not America so be it and good for them. They will get what they deserve.

Let's put this in perspective. Hezbollah's egress was the capture of two soldiers. In return, billions of dollars in damage to the infrastructure of Lebanon, punishing ALL Lebanese people and around 700 civilians killed. Almost 10 times the civilian casualties of the Hezbollah. Why not just nuke them all? Obviously, "they'll get what's coming to them" and there won't be any consequences for Israel.

The problem is, there have been consequences for Israel and there will be. And there will be consequences for America worse than if we had intervened sooner. We are losing credibility in the Middle East and beyond, and that is a very dangerous situation to be in.

[Yala]

I disagree but you are of course entitled to your opinion.. I'm not going to discuss the war with you b/c we will never ever agree. But aside from the war Lebanese have deep-rooted sectarian conflicts which have nothing to do with Israel. They also have problems with Syria which have nothing to do with Israel. They are constantly trying to drag Israel into their muck. 2/3 of their country is secular. The other 1/3 is fanatic with all the guns. Lebanon is like quicksand and Israel doesn't want anything to do with them.

[ben Shimshon]

Congratulations Yala, you have made some perfectly valid points. Such a shame that you have wasted them on a brick wall.