"Roadmap to Peace" officially dead [Archive]

MGB8

08-21-2003, 12:14 PM

The problem's with "unilateral withdrawal" are several:

(1) It would be seen as a retreat - a sign of weakness (which would still be complained against).

(2) It would allow terrorist groups to arm themselves and grow on their own, without any restraint, getting better and better weapons ... how long until WMD?

No....we need to have a 3 step plan:

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR.

Go into the WB and Gaza and kill or arrest each and every Hamas, Islamic Jihad and even Fatah member. Be brutal and ruthless. Destroy their homes. Avoid the death of non-terrorists as much as possible...

This idea that "collective punishment" is wrong is STUPID - WWII was ended by collective punishment (Firebomb of Berlin, Japan, Nukes), as was the Civil War (Sherman's March.) MOST WARS ONLY END WITH COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT!!! When the non-warriors realize that supporting the war is stupid and will lead only to more suffering. The Arabs understand this (what do you think terrorism is? Its bypassing the military and just killing innocents) - their strategy, which HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE, is to punish/kill the Israeli collective to achieve political aims.

Now, we don't sink to their level (randum bombings of mosques, etc.) - but this outrage over non-lethal collective punishment is pure BS.

Oh - back to the topic at hand - you arrest Arafat and TRY HIM.

(2) "Palestinian Funds" are used, along with international aid, to purchase part of the Sinai - say 1/3 of it. Egypt can be pressured by the US (and hopefully Europe) to sell part of their land. That land combines with Gaza to create "Palestine Proper."

As soon as the terrorists are all dead, you start the process of democratic elections in this new Palestine.

(3) As for the west bank, A road is built into it from Gaza, like the Road to Berlin. Part of the WB becomes autonomous, but under ISRAELI military control (so that Israel can fight any new terrorists that spring up, those who survived.) NO new Arab immigration to the WB - marriages yes, natural growth - sure. They can vote in the Palestine State's elections. The wall/fence remains. Israel offers incentives ($$$$) for Pal Arabs to move out of the WB into Palestine Proper - under Arab/Muslim soveriegnty, as opposed to being under local autonomy but Israeli military sovereignty.

MichaelC

08-21-2003, 12:34 PM

Tit for tat has had years to show us all that it does not work. Killing a single hamas official for the death of so many is useless. It will take many dead hamas members to have any effect at all.

End this tit for tat reaction. It doesn't work.

Lowell

08-21-2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Communication
Does anyone have a topographical map of the West Bank?

What's clear, Communication, is that the PA is committed to the destruction of Israel, or they'll die trying...

Here are some maps of Israel, topographical and others. Do you want that cup of coffee re-filled, too?

Israel topography (http://www.cartographic.com/xq/ASP/AreaID.33/RegionID.134/CategoryID.1/middle_east/israel/qx/topographic_maps.asp)

Israel topography- image (http://www.omnimap.com/cgi-bin/omni/graphic.pl?images/indexes/isr-50.gif)

from: Israel maps (http://www.omnimap.com/catalog/int/israel.htm)

Satellite images of Israel (http://www.science.co.il/Satellite_images.asp)

Communication

08-21-2003, 01:14 PM

Thanks, Lowell. The hills extend too far east to be cut off from the rest of the West Bank. :(

Lowell

08-21-2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Communication
Thanks, Lowell. The hills extend too far east to be cut off from the rest of the West Bank. :(

You're welcome. It's not every day I get to be a gofer for a lawyer. :) Doesn't it occur to anyone else that this entire 'peace process' just might be an exercise in futility? No matter what 'concessions' Israel makes the 'Palestinians' will always renege on their part of agreements, and find ways to blame Israel for the failure of the 'peace process'. The simple fact is that Israel is confronted by an implacable enemy to whom peace and co-existence with Israel are joking matters- the PA wants the entire nation of Israel as the new 'Palestinian' nation.

Communication

08-21-2003, 01:58 PM

I don't know anymore. I hate to be politicaly manipulated by fear. I think most people feel that they were manipulated that way with the war in Iraq. But I think that there is good reason to be afraid. I look around at what’s going on in the world, and in the ME in particular, and I see a growing population with dwindling natural resources and tensions over unequal distributions of wealth, and it’s all going to spill out of the ME and into places like Europe. You need democracies to get the kind of cooperation needed to face those types of challenges, but democracies are the most vulnerable to attack right now. People keep talking about “fairness” and doing the “right” thing, but if you look at what happened in Iraq this week, it becomes clear at least in my mind that some of these people are not at all interested in engaging us or even organizations that are respected in the Arab world like the UN. They exploit the vulnerabilities of our open societies, which in every other respect is our greatest strength. When the US diplomat to Jordan was killed, the Jordanian government set up checkpoints and performed door-to-door searches for militants. Curfews were imposed. And you never heard a word about it in the western media. Whenever the militants get too out of control in the Arab world, the governments go in and crack skulls. They’ve gotten away with slaughtering everybody and anybody who opposes their rule, they expel anybody they want, and countries like Saudi Arabia are allowed to spread their hatred throughout the world because they have so much oil. Israel can do none of this.

Isiah 2:4

08-21-2003, 02:25 PM

what's clear is that the PA is either unwilling or incapable of following through with their part in this road map. Rather than sit around and wait for the PA to get it together, perhaps a better approach would be to evacuate all those settlements that do not serve a startegic military purpose, keep the ones on the hilltops, and evacuate the Palestinian villages that would pose a problem in creating a contiguous fence. Pay the 12,000 or so Palestinians who would be affected by the fence fair money for the land and unilaterally say, "these are our borders." Seal off Jerusalem and offer the Palestinians living in east Jerusalem Israeli citizenship or compensation to leave and rebuild somewhere else in the territories. Evacuate Hebron. That will be our border. If the Europeans, UN, US, or other Arab countries want to then help the Palestinains build infrastructure and create a country on the rest of the land, fine. Otherwise, let them figure it out by themselves.

Of course, if you seal off the border, it makes it more difficult for the IDF to respond to future attacks on the ground and Hamas' rockets will make it over the border. But Israel can still use its helicopters in that event. But at least Israel can say, "these are our borders and this is what we are going to defend."

Thoughts, criticism welcomed, especially from opponents.

Hey! How come when i said this two months ago, every one said it wouldnt chnage a thing?

ibrodsky

08-21-2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Hey! How come when i said this two months ago, every one said it wouldnt chnage a thing?

That idea won't work. It is based on wishful thinking. The Arab world will continue to attack Israel and Jews until the price of doing so becomes too high.

At some point, Israel's leaders are going to have to make it clear to the world that Israel's citizens refuse to tolerate any more mass murder attacks.

It is clear that negotiated peace with the Arabs is impossible. The next step should be to totally annihilate the Arab terrorist groups through a sustained offensive.

If that doesn't work, stronger steps will be required.

Lowell

08-21-2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
That idea won't work. It is based on wishful thinking. The Arab world will continue to attack Israel and Jews until the price of doing so becomes too high.

At some point, Israel's leaders are going to have to make it clear to the world that Israel's citizens refuse to tolerate any more mass murder attacks.

It is clear that negotiated peace with the Arabs is impossible. The next step should be to totally annihilate the Arab terrorist groups through a sustained offensive.

If that doesn't work, stronger steps will be required.

Call me a pessimist, ibrodsky, but I fear it will not work or at least it will not work if Israel attempts the 'total annihilation' alone. I am convinced that the Arab nations are planning a second Holocaust- they intend to kill or drive out every Jew in Israel and from the ruins they plan the new 'Palestinian' state. For Israel by herself to pursue a total annihilation of terrorist groups would require a very high cost in IDF lifes, and it wouldn't even touch the Arab nations who finance and command the terrorist groups. What stronger steps might there then be- nuclear fire? I hope it does not come to that but if Israel does not act decisively and resolutely there may well be another Warsaw ghetto last ditch effort against hopeless odds, but this time in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and other Israeli cities.

alexbmn

08-21-2003, 07:29 PM

ok if there's one positive thing that has been establishe3d in this retarted war of attrition is that Palestinians cannot match the IDF as fighters at all. Before Defensive Shield Palestinians bragged that Tzahal is afraid to enter their cities camps. The Army was able to subdue the Palestinians in two weeks without using Artillery or Missiles.(most of the fighting was done by reservist infantry) Still the Pals claimed that IDF was afraid of going into Gaza which has a far greater population density , a far greater number of trained terrorists and a greater number of traps. This year there has been numerous raids into Gaza. The "score" was around 60 to 1 in favor of Israel. BUT THE BAD NEWS IS THAT DELINQUENT ISRAELI OFFICIALD DO NOT COnSIDER THE ROADMAP DEAD. However ,however Haaretz says the Army had decided on a 24 hour lull to see what will be the response to be from the PA to the assasinationof the Hamas chief. Supposedly if nothing will happen the campaign will increase in intensity with possible ground offensives into Gaza. ( a counter terror operation against Palestinians without entering Gaza is like WW2 without entering Germany.)

L@mplighterM

08-21-2003, 08:13 PM

I think this will just be a little detour in the Roadmap to Peace. Powell issued a statement today to the effect that the peace process should continue or that he believes that it should continue.

As things stand right now the WB and GS are considered captured or occupied territories by the world body and I believe that is the crux of the problem. I believe that Israel should hand over the parts of the WB and GS that it doesn’t require for security immediately. Right now! With Israel out of the way they would turn on each other at some point.

I believe that a civil war would most likely break out in the WB and GS, if Israel took such an action. Sit back and relax and let the Arabs kill each other for a year or two. Who cares! Conditions seem to be ripe for the two sides to slug it out, let them.

Where’s the loss? I would even consider donating bullets to the Palestinians.

If the terrorist organizations win Israel could finish them off.

ibrodsky

08-22-2003, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

As things stand right now the WB and GS are considered captured or occupied territories by the world body and I believe that is the crux of the problem. I believe that Israel should hand over the parts of the WB and GS that it doesn’t require for security immediately. Right now! With Israel out of the way they would turn on each other at some point.

Let's imagine Abbas really wanted to fight the terrorists. He wouldn't have a chance. There are far more Palestinian terrorists. Thousands turned out for the funeral of Hamas' mass murderer (another missed opportunity for the IAF).

It is absolutely pathetic that Israel is "pausing" to see if the PA will fight the terrorists. This is being done under pressure from the U.S.

Colin Powell is America's Neville Chamberlain. On the surface he seems less naive, but that is simply because the lessons of history are impossible to ignore. Today's politicians have come up with more sophisticated reasons for appeasing evil and trying to make "peace" with enemies who laugh at them behind their backs.

The Palestinian people overwhelmingly support terrorism against Israeli civilians. And the media goes out of its way to hide how barbaric they are: after Israel kills one of their terrorist leaders a crowd forms in the street to retrieve body parts (which for some bizarre reason they proudly wave) and dip their hands in the terrorists' blood.

The only way to defeat Islamist terrorism is to use shocking force. It must be made clear to the Muslim world that if they do not ruthlessly hunt down and capture/kill the terrorists in their midst they will face horrendous losses.

To borrow a phrase from Thomas Jefferson, "I tremble for" the West knowing that many would rather lose this battle than use tactics that were commonplace in past wars.

The allies firebombed Dresden and the U.S. nuked two Japanese cities to end the war. If we do not have the courage to make it clear we will not stand for Islamist mass murder attacks, then we can only expect more of them.

abu afak

08-22-2003, 02:09 PM

ROAD MAP, R.I.P.

By JOHN PODHORETZ

August 22, 2003 -- WHEN it comes to the Is raeli-Palestinian con flict, you can forget the term "road map." It doesn't mean anything, and it never did. The words are just another synonym for "Middle East peace process."
And once again it seems that the term "Middle East peace process" is just a synonym for "Jews getting killed whenever Israelis make concessions to Palestinians."

The twisted wreckage of the Jerusalem bus in which scores of children were massacred or injured on Tuesday brings to an end the mild optimism that greeted the end of the Iraq war — the sense that now, finally, at last the Palestinians might understand that America was committing itself to the democratization and pacification of the Middle East.

The tragedy is that some Palestinians — even the newly installed prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas — showed signs they did understand the rules had changed. But the circumstances of the past two days have forced them to choose sides between a democratic future and a present dominated by terror and murder.

And they have implicitly chosen the terrorists and their murderous anarchy over the admittedly tricky and unpredictable path to peace.

Abbas and the Palestinian Cabinet say they'll crack down on "military displays" by the terrorists. That was about all Abbas got out of his colleagues, who wouldn't otherwise agree to arrest terrorists, to disarm terrorists or to do much of anything — except, doubtless, gloat privately at the sight of weeping Israelis.

And when Israel, after waiting 24 hours for Abbas to act, finally took matters into its own hands and assassinated a Hamas leader, Abbas attacked Israel — needless to say.

The ceasefire to which Palestinian terrorist groups supposedly agreed two months ago is now officially over. Of course, it was violated more than 200 times when it was still in force, but let's overlook that, shall we?

Instead, let's focus on the fact that Abbas and the Palestinians spent much of the time during the ceasefire complaining to the United States about Israel's construction of a security fence — the most passive form of defense imaginable against terrorism.

Abbas and the Palestinian "leadership" hadn't made an issue of the fence before. In essence, they were creating a new grievance, a new reason to whine about Israel. The fence nonsense was simply a new excuse for not doing what the Palestinians needed to do to reach President Bush's capacious and optimistic vision of a two-state future for Israel and Palestine.

Bush revealed that vision on June 24, 2002, changing the terms of Israeli-Palestinian politics forever: "When the Palestinian people have new leaders, new institutions and new security arrangements with their neighbors," he said, "the United States of America will support the creation of a Palestinian state."

But those changes alone would not be enough, according to Bush. "The United States will not support the establishment of a Palestinian state until its leaders engage in a sustained fight against the terrorists and dismantle their infrastructure," Bush said.

This is the stated policy of the United States government, though Secretary of State Colin Powell continues to muddy the waters with statements and documents that contradict Bush's stated goals.

First, there was the "road map" to a Palestinian state in three years' time. The U.N., Russia and the European Union devised the road map, and Powell foolishly championed it in part because he thought it might drum up support for the Iraq war.

The road map is already yesterday's news — many of the dates and timetables featured in it are long since past. But Powell still clings to the term like a child to a security blanket that has been ripped apart by a pit bull.

"We will continue to move forward on the road map, " Powell said on Tuesday. "We will not be stopped by bombs, we will not be stopped by this kind of violence."

These were mind-boggling words, and they represented a direct contradiction of the president's policy.

Bush has made it clear there will be no Palestinian state — which is the end goal of the road map — in a world in which Palestinian terrorists run rampant and Palestinian leaders are either powerless or unwilling to stop them.

You won't hear President Bush explicitly denouncing his own secretary of State — especially not after the ridiculous business the other week about how Powell might quit in 17 months' time. (Or was it he'd quit the next time Halley's Comet flies by, or when he wins the lottery? I can't remember exactly.)

But Bush is the president. Powell isn't. And Bush doesn't change his tune. What matters now is whether Abbas can pull out of his downward spiral. If he can't, then the United States will make it clear we can wait until the Palestinian leaders heal themselves of their dementia and find the road map — the road map to civilization.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/3802.htm

alexbmn

08-22-2003, 05:02 PM

John Podhoretz should read Jerusalem Post or Haaretz. The Road Map is alive.

L@mplighterM

08-22-2003, 07:29 PM

Snips:

GAZA CITY, Gaza (CNN) -- Thousands of Palestinians packed the streets of Gaza City on Friday to mourn the death of top Hamas leader Ismail Abu Shanab and denounce Israel for killing him.

Many of the Palestinians fired gunshots into the air, and chanted angry messages against Israel, which remains on high alert, fearing a retaliatory attack for Abu Shanab's death. CNN correspondent Michael Homes estimated the crowd at around 50,000 people.

Speakers used public address systems to urge the Palestinian Authority to break off talks with Israel. Crowds chanted "The road map is dead," "It is time for martyrdom," and "It is time for revenge."

In response to the suicide bombing, President Bush designated six Hamas leaders and five European charities that the United States believes support the militant group as "specially designated global terrorists," a move that freezes their assets in the United States and prohibits U.S. nationals from conducting transactions with them, according to the U.S. Treasury Department. (Full story)

Palestinians put crackdown on terror 'on hold'
Referring to those plans, according to an aide to Palestinian Authority security chief Mohammed Dahlan, the missile strike came shortly before Palestinian police intended to launch raids on Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Elias Zananiri, Dahlan's spokesman, said Palestinian security forces had been given new rules of engagement, which would have allowed them to arrest militants and confiscate weapons. He said the new measures would have stripped Hamas and Islamic Jihad of their military wings.

"Now everything is put on hold," Zananiri said.

Meanwhile, President Bush on Friday said he directed the Treasury Department "to block and freeze the assets of six top Hamas leaders and five non-governmental organizations that I am advised provide support to Hamas."

In a written statement, Bush said that, "By claiming responsibility for the despicable act of terror on August 19, Hamas has reaffirmed that it is a terrorist organization committed to violence against Israelis and to undermining progress toward peace between Israel and the Palestinian people."

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/22/mideast/index.html

What roadmap to peace?

Give them the WB and GS then kill them all in self-defense.

I’m beginning to think that Bush is suffering from senile dementia; he seems to be repeating himself lately.

First it was “Arafat must do better” over and over and over again. Lately it’s been that there are elements in the WB, GS and Iraq that are enemies of peace. No kidding!

When you get 50,000 screaming psycho Palestinians marching down the street protesting the death of a terrorist, it becomes evident that they must all be destroyed before peace can ever be a reality.

Who’s ****** kidding who? There’s no way that they’ll give up their demand for Jerusalem. No way!

What do they want? The same that they wanted in 1967 “the death of every Jew in Israel.”

What else do they want? They want the word of Allah to dominate the world.

Who are they? They believe that they are messengers of G_d.

L@mplighterM

08-22-2003, 07:31 PM

Friday Palestinian Sermons:

B. Friday Sermon on PA TV (Praising Shahids)

On August 15, 2003, Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiris delivered a sermon extolling Shahids at the Sheikh Ijlin Mosque in Gaza City. "…Blessings to you, [sons of] the Palestinian people, people of Jerusalem who sacrifice Shahids in order to preserve the identity of the blessed Al-Aqsa Mosque and its Islamic and Arab identity… The residents of Palestine and Jerusalem are the ones who preserve the existence of the Al-Aqsa Mosque… We bless you, we bless everyone whose blood flows upon this good and pure land.

"If a prayer at the Al-Aqsa Mosque is worth 1,000 prayers at another mosque, then know that a Shahid [who falls] on this land is considered more than one Shahid someplace else. Yes, there are traditions according to which a Shahid here is worth 70 Shahids somewhere else… Every wounded person on this land is comparable to hundreds of wounded [somewhere else]…

"The Palestinian people today needs Omar bin Al-Khattab,[19] whose soul was inflamed every time he read Surat Al-Israa [Koran Chapter 17]. Every time he read the verse: 'Holy is He who took his servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Distant Mosque [17:1]', he felt that Al-Aqsa Mosque was asking for his help. And then he organized his army and turned from there [Al-Medina] to here, to Al-Sham [Syria] and to Jerusalem, with the closest companions of the Prophet, in order to liberate the Al-Aqsa Mosque. He liberated it from the Christians who had defiled it. He liberated it, but gave them [the Christians] security, with what was later called 'The Pact of Omar.'

"Notice, oh worshippers of Allah, the Jews are the most loathsome creatures on the face of the earth. For the Christians, despite their abominations, asked of Omar bin Al-Khattab one condition from among four – not to permit the Jews to live in Palestine. We want people like Salah Al-Din Al-Ayyoubi [Saladin],[20] we want a Salah Al-Din to liberate the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Al-Aqsa Mosque, that Salah Al-Din liberated when he heard the cries of the people of Palestine and the people of Syria when they were subject to massacres and abuses…

"Since Salah Al-Din liberated Al-Aqsa Mosque and the land of Palestine, this land has been subject to the greed of invaders, until the imperialist attack came, and Palestine was conquered. It was conquered by the British [and because of this] we have relations of blood vengeance. Between Britain and us, there is a lengthy reckoning of blood vengeance that has not been forgotten, even though politics requires it. Was it not Britain that gave what it did not possess, to those who had no right to it? Was it not Britain that gave the Jews a right to establish a state on the land of Palestine, and at the expense of the Palestinian people? Palestine and its holy places are subject to constant aggression…

"Hasn't the world heard of the Palestinian detainees who suffer in their [Israel's] jails, when yesterday they were served poisoned meals, because of which perhaps dozens of our imprisoned sons will die? Your brothers in the prisons are subject to the ugliest of Zionist attacks. They are subject to the ugliest of tortures and abuses. You have heard, and all the world has heard, that two days ago our brothers in the houses of detention were served poisoned meals and that more than 50 prisoners are in serious condition because they were given poisoned food…"[21]

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SR2003

L@mplighterM

08-22-2003, 07:32 PM

Glorification of Shahids in the Press:

1. Obituaries for the Bus Bomber in Jerusalem and the Kfar Yabetz (Near Tel Aviv) Bomber

Three Palestinian Authority dailies,Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Al-Ayyam, and Al-Quds, published obituaries for Abd Al-Mu'ti Muhammad Salleh Shabana Al-Tamimi, who blew himself up on the No. 14 bus in June 2003 in Jerusalem's Jaffa Road. These obituaries were in the accepted format for such notices, glorifying the bomber and his deed in Islamic terms.[22] The obituary in the PA dailies Al-Hayat Al-Jadida and Al-Ayyam was as follows:

"'Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah: of them some have completed their vow [to sacrifice themselves for Allah in battle], and some (still) wait [to fulfill their vow]: but they never changed it [Koran 33:23].'"

'Announcement of a Shahid's Death'

"Palestine-Hebron: The Shahid's brothers and the entire Shabana Al-Tamimi family, in the homeland and outside it, announce to the two nations – the Arab and Muslim nation in general and our Palestinian people, at the battlefront, in particular –
the [death] of the Hero ShahidAbd Al-Mu'ti Muhammad Salleh Shabana Al-Tamimi (age 18) who carried out the heroic act in Jaffa Road - June 11, 2003.We pray to Allah to accept him among the prophets, the saints, and the Shahids in whose company it is good to be.

"'To Allah we belong and to Him we return' [Koran 2:156]
Congratulations on [the death of] the Hero Shahid will be received at the cultural center named for the Companion of the Prophet Tamim Al-Dari, at Mount Abu Ruman, Hebron,
for three days beginning yesterday, Thursday, from 16:00 to 19:00."

The PA daily Al-Ayyampublished an obituary placed by the Islamic Jihad organization for Ahmad Khairi Fat'hi Yahyah, who carried out the July 7, 2003 suicide bombing at Kfar Yabetz after the declaration of the Hudna. The following is the announcement:

"Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah: of them some have completed their vow [to sacrifice themselves for Allah in battle], and some (still) wait [to fulfill their vow]: but they never changed it [Koran 33:23].

"Announcement of the Death of a Hero Shahid Palestine-Jenin: The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine views with pride and glory the Hero Shahid who is with Allah Ahmad Khairi Fat'hi Yahyah son of Ra'i Village of the Jihad the Shahid who carried out the operation northeast of Tel Aviv last Tuesday, July 7, 2003. We ask Allah to cover him with His great mercy and to lodge him in His Paradise. We announce to our Jihad-fighting people and to our Arab and Muslim nation about the Hero Shahid, and we promise him and all the pure Shahids that we will follow in their path. Jihad [is] either victory or Shahada."[23]

2. Poems Glorifying Shahids in the Palestinian Press

The Palestinian daily Al-Qudspublished an article by Sa'id Muhammad Sa'ada that reviewed a collection of poems, Here We Were and Here We Will Be, by Palestinian poet Lutfi Zaghloul. In his article, Sa'ada quotes Zaghloul's qasida (Arabic poem), “Before You, Oh Homeland," that says: "…To you, oh homeland, we drink the cup of death How sweet the cup, how sweet the drink With every additional Shahid, We draw closer to you."

In his analysis of the poem, Sa'ada wrote, "The poet Lutfi Zaghloul loved his homeland with a fierce love. The ardency of his love increased because of the desecration of the homeland by plundering, occupation, destruction, and killing. Therefore, the poet – like any other inhabitant of the homeland – did not refrain from offering his soul to redeem the homeland, without fearing the enemy and his murderous deeds. It is to this that we refer when we say that the fierce love in the soul of the poet Zaghloul deviated from the purely moral framework perceived through the senses and moved on from saying theoretical words to actual implementation of this fierce love. The implementation of the emotion was manifested in fighting and defending the homeland, so that it would again be a homeland over which fly the banners of liberation, freedom, and victory, whatever the price in Shahids."[24]

Al-Qudsalso published the lyrics to a song by Zaghloul called "A Song of Palestine," which had won first prize at the International Festival of Arab Song in Dubai:

"…May my banner fly high,
I will redeem you with the gushing of my blood
I have a homeland, I have a home, I have a people with sublime ambitions

With the blood of Shahids, I sketch out my tomorrow.
Blessed be the righteous martyrs
How noble is the free fedai. He is still imprisoned

He sacrificed that which is most precious to him, oh my homeland, and the sweetest days of life
The night is neither beautiful nor sweet when the moon cannot be seen."[25]

The PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadidapublished "Between Seasickness and the Dew on the Window" by Druze poet Sleiman Daghash, who lives in Israel. The following are excerpts:

"… Stretch your two fingers in the V-sign
Above his grave. Death is smaller than his Shahada, which rises up as high
As the minaret of resurrection at dawn prayers…
This is the ancient wisdom of death:
The Shahids will awaken like anemones
at dawn
Bathing themselves in blood, in the birth pangs of the Earth
Stretch out your two fingers like two strokes of lightning and like two shots
And finally, the infant will emerge."[26]

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SR2003

L@mplighterM

08-22-2003, 07:34 PM

Reports and Articles Glorifying Shahids

In an interview with Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Nuzhah Ziyadeh, also known as Umm Souheil, a 55-year-old woman from the Jebaliya refugee camp who had "sacrificed two of her sons as Shahids for the sake of Allah," expressed "pride and a sense of honor that Allah had honored her with the martyrdom of her two sons Souheil and Muhammad, and made their wish come true." The paper called Umm Souheil "Al-Khansaa" – referring to the mother of Shahids in Islamic history.[27]

The paper quoted Umm Souheil, (mother of Souheil), as saying in the interview, "Souheil was a paragon of sacrifice and love of the homeland to be imitated. He went out at noon on a Thursday in May 2002, after refusing to eat the lunch I prepared for him. He was wearing his weapon and his bag, and he went to eastern Gaza. He fought the enemies of Allah until he martyred himself after evening prayers… I awoke suddenly at 11 at night, and saw my sons Maher and Muhammad perturbed. I tried to extract information from them, but I was not successful. I prayed to Allah until Muhammad came to me and told me the news. I broke into cries of joy and turned to my daughters so they could congratulate their brother Souheil on his Shahada…

"[Souheil] was known for his courage and resourcefulness. He never missed a chance to confront the infidels. He participated in destroying an armored personnel carrier in the area of Beit Lahiya. He also participated in the operation in which the nuclear researcher was killed in the Elei Sinai settlement. [Souheil] had great experience in preparing bombs, guided bombs, and missiles… We have no honor except in Jihad and martyrdom. We have no honor except in self-sacrifice, persistence, and steadfastness…"

The newspaper report continued, "Umm Souheil went on with the stories of the heroism and sacrifice, and said that her second son Muhammad would entreat his brother Souheil to agree to send him to carry out a martyrdom operation, and he even complained to those responsible for him that his brother was preventing him from fulfilling his wish. Souheil's response was that he could not send him and could not prevent him, and that he needed his mother's permission. Umm Souheil added, 'I tried to persuade him at first to change his mind, but he insisted, and then I told him: Do what you want, I cannot prevent you.' She added that Muhammad died a martyr's death on July 14, 2002, that is, two months after his brother was martyred: ‘He died on the roof of the home of a group of friends who were carrying out their daily preparation of explosives. Suddenly I heard the sound of a powerful explosion, and then two of Muhammad's friends emerged carrying him, with blood covering his face. After a few meters he fell from their hands onto the ground. When I realized that he had martyred himself, I turned to him, kissed him, and praised Allah that he had gained the Shahada he had sought. He had participated in all the confrontations with the occupation forces.'"[28]

In an article for the PA daily Al-Quds,Palestinian Legislative Council member Imad Al-Hamid Al-Falouji mentioned Al-Khansaa in the same breath as national Palestinian icons such as Arafat and Fares 'Ouda:[29] "… At the forefront of our [Palestinian] people are [those] like the ShahidFares 'Ouda and [other] Shahids,and [like] the leader [Arafat] standing at the battlefront in times of peace and times of siege… [and like] the prisoners standing, with empty stomachs, against the jailors as models of determination, facing the challenge, and standing with pride, and the Palestinian women like Al-Khansaa, giving birth to these heroes as in their eyes appears the determination to remain and endure life's hardships…"[30]

The PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadidapublished an article by Tarek Daraghma, head of the Association of Families of Shahids in the Tubas district, in which he wrote: "… If it is true to say that the Shahids are the most honorable people, and that there is no argument or doubt about this, then why do we not wish their sons, daughters, wives, fathers, and mothers well? Why do we not understand the sensitivity of the situation?… The family of the one whom Allah loves and whom He has chosen [to carry out] Shahadaneeds a great deal of [assistance]… Do not, whether intentionally or unintentionally, make those who sacrifice their sons and daughters for the homeland go door to door in search of food…"[31]

4. Cartoons: Anti-Israel (and Anti-American), and Encouraging Suicide Operations

Following the Aqaba summit, the Palestinian press continued to publish anti-Israeli (and anti-American) cartoons, as well as cartoons encouraging suicide attacks. Examples of such cartoons are those by Omayya Juha, a cartoonist for the PA daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, while her husband was, until his death, an activist for the military wing of Hamas, Iz Al-Din Al-Qassam Brigades.[32]

Juha is the most popular Palestinian cartoonist, and her website, http://www.omayya.com, was recently chosen as "Best Arab Cartoon Website."[33] For years, Juha has produced anti-Israel (and anti-American) cartoons showing, for example, Israel (and the U.S.) as snakes and Sharon (and Bush) murdering children in cold blood, as well as cartoons glorifying suicide bombings. Since the Aqaba summit, Juha has continued to produce these cartoons, and Al-Hayat Al-Jadida continues to publish them. Examples include one that appeared the day after the No. 14 bus suicide bombing in Jerusalem, showing the torn body parts of a man who was blown up; Israel in the form of a spider; the U.S. as an octopus strangling Saddam Hussein and killing his two sons Uday and Qusay; Sharon as a child-murderer under the aegis of the U.S.; Israel as a child murderer; and an antisemitic cartoon: Israel, as represented by a bloodstained man wearing a skullcap, participates in an economic conference (see Appendix III).

Other media also publish cartoons that incite violence. The Palestinian daily Al-Qudsprinted an antisemitic cartoon showing a crucified Palestinian and Iraqi, to stress that the Jews were crucifying them like they had allegedly crucified Jesus (see Appendix III). The official Palestinian Authority information website, http://www.ipc.gov.ps, posted photos of children carrying weapons,[34] and pictures of armed "resisters to the occupation (see Appendix IV)." The site also provides links to "important Palestinian sites" such as the main publication of the Fatah movement http://www.yafa-news.com, which is headed by the motto "Arab Palestine, from the Sea to the River," and the site http://www.palestine-info.info, identified with the Hamas movement.

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SR2003

abu afak

08-22-2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by alexbmn
John Podhoretz should read Jerusalem Post or Haaretz. The Road Map is alive.

Well according To Lamplighter's post, even the Palestinians think it's dead.

and Podhoretz is right..

"Roadmap" is a just a New name for "Peace Process" which didn't work and Killed Jews..

I have a better name/method for the "Roadmap"/Peace Process:

TRANSFER

MichaelC

08-22-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Palestinians put crackdown on terror 'on hold'
Referring to those plans, according to an aide to Palestinian Authority security chief Mohammed Dahlan, the missile strike came shortly before Palestinian police intended to launch raids on Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Elias Zananiri, Dahlan's spokesman, said Palestinian security forces had been given new rules of engagement, which would have allowed them to arrest militants and confiscate weapons. He said the new measures would have stripped Hamas and Islamic Jihad of their military wings.
What a crock!!!

That is the approach grade school children take when they are thwarted in their plans.

Something these people have not only NEVER made so much as a brief effort at, but have also categorically refused to do, they now claim they were about to do..........except that now that those dastardly Israelis have gone and done it, well....they're taking their ball and going home.

Takeo is the perfect spokesman for these liars. He and they are so similar in their logic.

L@mplighterM

08-22-2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
Well according To Lamplighter's post, even the Palestinians think it's dead.

and Podhoretz is right..

"Roadmap" is a just a New name for "Peace Process" which didn't work and Killed Jews..

I have a better name/method for the "Roadmap"/Peace Process:

TRANSFER

Well I don’t know what dimension that the Palestinians live in but they seem to be out of step with much of the world. Of course when you have a Muslim like Kofi Annan (Secretary General of the UN) criticizing Israelis actions in killing a Hamas leader it adds fuel to the fire.

50,000 Palestinians protesting Israel’s actions really say a lot. Up to now the squeaky wheel has gotten the oil and that can be seen by Israel’s release of prisoners. What exactly has Israel gotten in return except the killing of its children and citizens?

I’m afraid that your position is one that’s more moderate than mine. I think the current situation can only be solved with an all out bloody messy war that drives the terrorists into a corner. When they are cornered there should be no surrender, kill them.

A Yo-Yo war will not solve this situation, that being one where the IDF enters the WB and GS, kills 50 or so terrorists and loose half that of their own.

I don’t think that will happen because Sharon seems to have lost his balls and should retire.

If I was offered the job of settling the situation I would accept, I don’t believe that I could do worse than this latest fiasco.

L@mplighterM

08-22-2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by MichaelC
What a crock!!!

That is the approach grade school children take when they are thwarted in their plans.

Something these people have not only NEVER made so much as a brief effort at, but have also categorically refused to do, they now claim they were about to do..........except that now that those dastardly Israelis have gone and done it, well....they're taking their ball and going home.

Takeo is the perfect spokesman for these liars. He and they are so similar in their logic.

Crock is right, but there will be those (right around now I have Bush and Powell in mind) that pretend to believe it or perhaps they do believe it. Lying works!

I’m surprised that Bush didn’t say that Abbas should do better. I’m certain that Abbas thinks that the American Administration is run by idiots and he isn’t far from the truth.

L@mplighterM

08-23-2003, 07:39 AM

Bush road map runs into trouble as hawks urge action on terror
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 22/08/2003)

The Bush administration's Middle East policy was at a major turning point yesterday after Hamas and Islamic Jihad both repudiated the ceasefires they had declared under the US-sponsored "road map" peace plan.

American policy had gambled that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, would crack down on terrorists - an optimism that appeared fatally wounded.

If Colin Powell, the administration's leading advocate of a diplomatic solution in the Middle East, sounded apocalyptic yesterday, it was because he knows how high the stakes now are.

"The end of the road map is a cliff that both sides will fall off," Mr Powell said. For Palestinians, failure to rein in terrorists might "let those who have no interest in a Palestinian state win".

Letting the road map die was "not an acceptable outcome", he said. "The alternative is what? Just more death and destruction?"

Some of President George W Bush's loyal supporters called for America to take the fight directly to Hamas and Hezbollah, and even their sponsors in Syria and Iran.

The road map endorsed by Mr Bush has long attracted loud criticism from sections of the Right, notably the Christian Right, which believes that the West Bank and Jerusalem were biblically covenanted to the Jewish people by God.

But less noticed was the way in which his neo-conservative allies - intellectuals and officials who believe that the Middle East can and must be remade as a secular, democratic region - quietly put aside their misgivings over the road map, precisely because Mr Bush's hopes for it were so modest.

Within the Bush administration, the key to the road map was that it should not lock Israel into painful concessions if the Palestinians paid only lip-service to their side of the bargain.

Daniel Pipes, a leading neo-conservative commentator on the Middle East, said: "Before diplomacy can be effective, there has to be a fundamental shift on behalf of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have not yet concluded, as a body politic, that violence is the wrong way to go."

Many Washington conservatives go further - demanding not just fundamental change from Palestinians, but from Syria and Iran, nations identified by Mr Bush as promoting Islamic terrorism.

Lawrence Eagleburger, a former secretary of state and eminence grise among neo-conservatives, yesterday urged the administration to take the fight to Hamas and Hezbollah, their havens in Lebanon and their sponsors in Damascus and Teheran.

"They're terrorists," he told CNN television. "The Bekaa valley just beckons to us to go in there and drop a few bombs and see if we can't get a few people out of the way."

President Bush never allowed himself to be carried away by the Middle East ceasefires, even before Tuesday's bombing in Jerusalem.

Heading to a golfing game near his Texas holiday ranch earlier that same day, he told reporters: "Here's my view on ceasefires. I'm happy there's calm and I think that's important.

"The ultimate solution, and this can happen quickly in my judgment, is to find those who believe killing is the best approach to dealing with the very difficult problems in the Middle East."

At the time, his scepticism sounded strikingly downbeat, almost dismissive. A few hours later, it appeared horribly prescient as a score of men, women and children, five of them Americans, lay dead in the wreckage of their bus.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/08/22/wmid222.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/08/22/ixnewstop.html

I don’t know whether Bush has been listening to Jack Daniels or what the hell is going on between his ears, but he ought to have known that you can’t reason with Islamic terrorists.

Fire Powell and the rest of his doves and let the killing begin.

ibrodsky

08-23-2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

Fire Powell and the rest of his doves and let the killing begin.

There are some small but hopeful signs that Israel's patience has run out. The recent bus massacre was for some apparently the last straw.

The bad news is that Sharon's government has said they won't be the ones to jettison the Roadmap because the Roadmap, unlike Oslo, does not require Israel to do anything until the other side fulfills its obligations.

The problem with this thinking is that the Palestinians have always used the "peace process" as a cover--a way to freely encourage terrorism, recruit terrorists, plan terrorism, and conduct terrorism while getting others to pressure Israel to not endanger the precious "peace process" by waging war.

The administration shows how deluded it is when it says "Israel has the right to defend itself."

Isreal has more than the right to wait for its citizens to be mass murdered and then try to prevent the next attack. Israel has the right to wipe Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, the PA, and other Islamist-Nazis off the face of the earth.

ibrodsky

08-23-2003, 09:00 AM

Please also note the change in my signature. I now totally reject any possibility of peace with the Palestinians. Their entire society is based on terrorism.

The only solution is military victory.

ibrodsky

08-23-2003, 10:38 AM

Now the Palestinian terrorists are demanding that Israel sign a cease-fire agreement--as if their own signatures are worth anything.

Israel should not agree to any cease-fire. Clearly, the reason the Palestinians want a "cease-fire" is to make Israel cease-fire while they continue to mass murder.

I also want to clarify my previous post. I always saw the Roadmap as mainly a way to get the Palestinians to fight among themselves. I also believed Israel at least had to try to "make peace" if only to expose the real source of the conflict: the Islamist terrorism that pervades Palestinian society.

My view has changed in that (1) I don't believe there are enough brave and decent Palestinians to fight the terrorist-supporting majority and (2) I don't believe exposing the Palestinians for what they are will significantly alter world opinion.

It's time for all people who want the massacre of Jewish civilians to end to support Israel's war against Arab/Isamist terrorism.

old-reb

08-23-2003, 03:28 PM

Even Hamas is not responsible for Hamas bombing.
------------------------------

Sheik Yassin said Hamas would study any proposed cease-fire. But he said Hamas would avenge the killing of Mr. Abu S Sheik Yassin said Hamas would study any proposed cease-fire. But he said Hamas would avenge the killing of Mr. Abu Shanab, and he said of Mr. Abbas, "He should not accept the killing of his brother to satisfy his enemy."

Sheik Yassin defended the bombing in Jerusalem on Tuesday, saying: "This operation did not come out of nothing. It came after a series of letters and statements to the world, asking them to stop the Israeli practices.

"We didn't know that this operation would lead to the killing of 20," he also said, insisting that it was conducted by the military wing of the organization, without his involvement.
,

www.nytimes.com/2003/08/24/international/middleeast/24MIDE.html?ex=1062302400&en=75fca2cb6605768b&ei=5 062&partner=GOOGLEhanab

ibrodsky

08-23-2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by old-reb

"We didn't know that this operation would lead to the killing of 20," he also said, insisting that it was conducted by the military wing of the organization, without his involvement.

Such lies are the stock-in-trade of Islamist Nazis.

Of course they don't say "Our goal is to kill as many Jews as possible -- the younger and more innocent and defenseless, the better."

They claim Israel forces them to mass murder. They claim they regret having to mass murder. They pretend they will stop if Israel stops defending itself.

Really, this is the same game the Nazis played. And it should come as no surprise, as much of the Arab ME was allied with or admired the Nazis. The Nazis even accommodated their Arab friends by creating a special racial category for them: "Non-non Aryans."

I am rapidly losing patience with the Israeli gov't. They know where many of these Palestinian barbarians live. Yet when confronted with the choice of killing these terrorists or avoiding criticism from the EU and often U.S., they opt for the latter.

Given that the Palestinian barbarians purposely kill Israeli civilians, I think Israel could be a tad less concerned about Palestinian civilians. Plus, the majority of Palestinians support mass murder of Jews; if any society was ever collectively guilty it is theirs.

If Sharon's gov't doesn't have the will to use the force needed to put a stop to massacres of Jews by Arab barbarians, then he should step aside and let someone who does have the will take charge.

old-reb

08-23-2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by MGB8
The problem's with "unilateral withdrawal" are several:

(1) It would be seen as a retreat - a sign of weakness (which would still be complained against).

(2) It would allow terrorist groups to arm themselves and grow on their own, without any restraint, getting better and better weapons ... how long until WMD?

No....we need to have a 3 step plan:

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR.

Go into the WB and Gaza and kill or arrest each and every Hamas, Islamic Jihad and even Fatah member. Be brutal and ruthless. Destroy their homes. Avoid the death of non-terrorists as much as possible...

This idea that "collective punishment" is wrong is STUPID - WWII was ended by collective punishment (Firebomb of Berlin, Japan, Nukes), as was the Civil War (Sherman's March.) MOST WARS ONLY END WITH COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT!!! When the non-warriors realize that supporting the war is stupid and will lead only to more suffering. The Arabs understand this (what do you think terrorism is? Its bypassing the military and just killing innocents) - their strategy, which HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE, is to punish/kill the Israeli collective to achieve political aims.

Now, we don't sink to their level (randum bombings of mosques, etc.) - but this outrage over non-lethal collective punishment is pure BS.

Oh - back to the topic at hand - you arrest Arafat and TRY HIM.

(2) "Palestinian Funds" are used, along with international aid, to purchase part of the Sinai - say 1/3 of it. Egypt can be pressured by the US (and hopefully Europe) to sell part of their land. That land combines with Gaza to create "Palestine Proper."

As soon as the terrorists are all dead, you start the process of democratic elections in this new Palestine.

(3) As for the west bank, A road is built into it from Gaza, like the Road to Berlin. Part of the WB becomes autonomous, but under ISRAELI military control (so that Israel can fight any new terrorists that spring up, those who survived.) NO new Arab immigration to the WB - marriages yes, natural growth - sure. They can vote in the Palestine State's elections. The wall/fence remains. Israel offers incentives ($$$$) for Pal Arabs to move out of the WB into Palestine Proper - under Arab/Muslim soveriegnty, as opposed to being under local autonomy but Israeli military sovereignty.

Hello MGB,

I buy your plan in it's entirety.

old reb

The Insider

08-27-2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
A leader of the mass murder terrorist group Hamas was killed in a missile strike on Gaza today. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have announced the "hudna" is "over"--pretending they had adhered to a ceasefire.

Meanwhile, Abu Mazen has denounced Israel's attack on Hamas. Why let Israel kill the terrorists when the PA can make phony arrests, placing terrorists in jails without locks?

The good news is that, so far, the U.S. has said only that it demands the PA fight the terrorist groups. Hopefully, we will not hear any foolish remarks from the administration or State Dept today...

rocked by an explosion that ripped through the number 2 bus, which was jam packed with families returning from their daily prayers at the Western Wall, the whole of Israel was rocked as well.
I was watching the news as the first flash came in, and the all too familiar churn in my stomach started as I waited for more information. Those who follow my postings and my site know my weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is suffering children. I was not prepared for the news reports that followed of wounded and dead children and infants on the bus.
Of the 21 people killed, 6 were children.
Fourteen of the victims were Israelis and five of the dead were American citizens. One unidentified woman was a foreign worker from Thailand. More than 110 were wounded in the attack, 40 of them children.
It was the worst of all attacks on busses in 3 years.

After the numbness of the shock started to evaporate out of my body, it was replaced by anger. I am no different than any other Israeli and no matter what my political stand point, I knew that the time had come to put our foot down.
Enough of hearing President Bush repeating to the PA that they had better disarm the terror factions, but not hearing the PA clearly saying that they would not. Enough of turning the other cheek.
Enough of turning a blind eye to the intelligence reports of who is responsible and the smuggling of arms going on right under the PAs nose.
Now we had to fend for ourselves and defend ourselves, as no one is going to do it for us.
I personally thought that the government would expel Mr. Arafat out of the country, and was disappointed that they did not seize the opportunity.
The result of the horrendous attack on Tuesday night was an immediate reprisal by Israel and the assassination of a top Hammas leader on Wednesday. The Hammas and Jihad leaders in unison called off the Hudna and said that it was Israels fault and said that they would revenge his death. It does not matter to them that no one in Israel listens anymore, as that is an automatic response from their side.
Israeli forces are back in the Gaza strip and West bank for undefined period of time. Already we have reports of ammunition factories being discovered, smuggling tunnels uncovered and would be suicide bombers stopped on their way.
It is just coincidence that the Ministry of Tourism started a campaign on Wednesday to convince tourists to start coming to Israel again. (I wonder how they are going to get round this one?)
It is sad that last week, I wrote about getting back to normal and ended with Let us pray, that sceptics like myself, will be proven wrong and that the leaders from both sides will prevail in their efforts to prolong this period and that the dream of a break will turn into an all time reality.
It seems that sceptics like myself are not just sceptics, but realists, and the reality of the Middle East that we live in is such that you have to live by the sword, and not the word.
No matter what the reality of life, let us pray that there does not have to be any more senseless killing and lets pray for the souls of those that perished.

Communication

08-27-2003, 03:34 AM

Hey, are you really "The Insider" of http://www.israelshop1.com/ ?

I bought some t-shirts from you over a year ago and I've been reading your e-mails ever since.

Welcome!

old-reb

09-06-2003, 08:39 AM

He noted that the Israelis and Palestinians have agreed to accept the terms of the peace settlement known as the "roadmap" that will bring stability to the region and eventual statehood for the Palestinians. The peace plan has been endorsed by the Quartet -- a partnership between the United Nations, EU, Russia and the United States to help bring the peace plan to resolution -- and many Arab nations also have joined in support of the roadmap.

Since the President brought the parties together at Aqaba, where they all came together to endorse the roadmap, we have made some progress down the road the peace," Powell said. "But not enough, and we need to redouble our efforts. We need to keep the pressure on both sides to do everything they can to get to that point where Israelis and Palestinians can live side by side in peace, Israelis in the state of Israel and Palestinians in a state of their own called Palestine."

The United States supports Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas' efforts to consolidate security forces to eliminate the terrorist organizations who are trying to destroy peace efforts, Powell said.

"We support Prime Minister Abbas' efforts to make sure that all financial authority and all financial resources are under his office, so they can be used to benefit the Palestinian people and not be diverted to other purposes," Powell said.

Powell said HAMAS and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and similar terrorist organizations, must be isolated and not allowed to derail peace efforts.

"The entire international community must come together to isolate them, brand them as terrorists, and do everything we can to cut off all of the funding that has been going to these organizations over the years," he said. "Unfortunately, Chairman Yasser Arafat has not been playing the helpful role. He has not been an interlocutor for peace over the years."

Powell said the roadmap is sound, and "we stand by it. And we know the travelers will get to their common destination, to peace, if they follow that map."

minusthejihad

09-06-2003, 09:26 AM

Yes David,

I also bought from your store and get your mailing list mailers as well.

Welcome to Israelforum. I am glad you are alright and I want you to know that we are all pulling for you and our families in Israel. Let us hope that Israel and the US finally get serious about ending terrorism. My condolenses go out to the families.

Enuff

09-06-2003, 11:54 AM

Its seems an appropriate time to rename “The Roadmap for Peace”(in the aftermath of its murder by terrorist hands) to “The Looking-Glass into the Transparency of Palestinian Policy.” Abbas’ tender of resignation was the last confirmation which ended a series of non-stop demands and concessions, subverting the ’roadmaps’ objectives and goals but successfully laying bare the continued objectives of terrorist organizations and exposing those who would likely hold the mantle of power with the creation of a terrorist state.

Of course…true to the ever outward pointing finger of Islam, the fault and failure lie with America and Israel policy but I doubt many can deny the ‘gig is up’ as a complete lack of Palestinian accomplishment to any of the Phase I goals is visible for all to see. I’m just thankful in the small miracle or, at least, the temporary postponement of a state whose motto could very well be , “A Nation and home for the civilly and humanely challenged. Come all who cherish chaos, turmoil, murder and terror. A nation where abject poverty, cruelty and madness abound(No Tax, Tariff or Duty on French, German or Russian goods and arms.)”

Mediocrates

09-06-2003, 12:37 PM

Aug 04, 2003

Summary

Seeking to end the risk of Palestinian attacks, Israel is building a barrier to separate Palestinians and Israelis. For the wall to work, it must be more like an iron curtain than the U.S.-Mexican border. It must be relatively impermeable: If there are significant crossing points, militants will exploit them. Therefore, the only meaningful strategy is to isolate Israelis and Palestinians. That would lead to a Palestinian dependency on Jordan that might, paradoxically, topple the Hashemite regime in Amman. If that happens, Israel will have solved a painful nuisance by creating the potential for a strategic nightmare.

Analysis

Israel, under Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, is in the process of building a wall that ultimately will separate Israelis and Palestinians along a line roughly -- but not at all precisely -- identical to the cease-fire lines that held from 1948 until 1967. The wall is far from complete, but the logic for it is self-evident: It represents Israel's attempt to impose a reality that will both satisfy the Jewish state's fundamental security needs and the minimal political demands of the Palestinians without requiring Palestinian agreement or acquiescence. It is an extraordinary attempt at applied geopolitics. The question is whether it will work.

Let's begin with the technical aspect. It is possible, with substantial effort, to create a barrier that not only stops large-scale population movements but seriously inhibits small-scale movements as well. The Iron Curtain was more than a rhetorical term: We once walked along the Austro-Hungarian border, seeing watch towers with machine guns and search lights; concertina wire; wide, clear-cut killing fields where infiltrators or exfiltrators could be observed day or night using search lights and flares, and dense mine fields. The line ran from the Baltic to the Yugoslav border. It did work -- there was certainly some movement across, but only at great risk and probable failure.

The purpose of the Iron Curtain was to prevent eastern Europeans from moving to the west and away from Soviet occupation. It was difficult to build and maintain, but it was built and it did work quite well. It was built with World War II technology. The Israeli project will involve more modern sensor technology, both human and machine. Movement will not be spotted by the luck of the flare, but with sound sensors, ground radar and unmanned aerial vehicles. The point is that from a technical standpoint, if the Iron Curtain could work, this can work. The challenge is political and military, not technical.

From the Israeli standpoint, the driving force is desperation. Suicide attacks have achieved what Palestinian planners had hoped for -- convincing the Israelis that the status quo cannot be maintained. The bombings have convinced Israeli leaders that the continued physical occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip are not an option. The problem that the Israelis have had to confront is that simply retreating and abandoning the occupation might not solve their strategic problem. From the Israeli standpoint, the problem of the Oslo accords is that they rested on a political decision by the Palestinians, who had to guarantee that they would abandon further claims -- and military operations -- against the state of Israel in return for Israeli withdrawal.

The last two years convinced Israeli leaders of two things: First, that any guarantee from a Palestinian government was unstable and could not be regarded as permanent, and second, that even if the Palestinian government was able to maintain its own commitment to an agreement, it was incapable of guaranteeing that all Palestinian factions would honor it. Israel observed the ability of the Irish Republican Army, ETA and other groups to continue operations without or against state sanctions. Since the absolute minimum concession from the Palestinians had to be the cessation of suicide bombings and related actions against Israel, this posed an insuperable problem. On the one hand, the status quo was untenable; on the other, a political foundation for withdrawal appeared to be unattainable. Israel was trapped between two impossible realities.

For Israel, the Camp David accords with Egypt provided the basic model for negotiations with Arabs. Camp David consisted of three parts:

1. Egyptian recognition that Israel could not be destroyed through military action.
2. Israeli recognition that Egypt was capable -- as in 1973 -- of carrying out military operations that were too costly for Israel.
3. Recognition that the Sinai desert could serve not only as Israel's strategic depth in maneuver warfare, but equally well as a demilitarized buffer zone large enough to prevent surprise attack.

It was on this basis that Menachem Begin, Sharon's intellectual and strategic mentor, reached agreement with Egypt to end hostilities -- an agreement that remains the strategic foundation of Israel's national security policy today. The crucial piece was that the deal did not rely on Egypt's good will: The buffer was sufficiently large that any Egyptian violation would be quickly noticed and could be responded to militarily. In other words, Israel could keep control of its fate without holding Egyptian territory.

The Oslo agreement was an attempt to apply this same principle to the Palestinian question. It was built on the Palestinian recognition that Palestinians could not destroy Israel militarily, and Israeli recognition that the cost of occupation was greater than Israel could rationally bear. What was missing -- and always has been -- was a third step. There has been no possibility of disengagement. From the Israeli viewpoint, this has meant that any settlement depended on both the continued goodwill of the Palestinian state and the absence of dissident anti-Israeli movements. Since neither could be guaranteed, no solution was possible.

Hence, the fence. It should be noted that the creation of a fixed barrier violates all Israeli military thinking. The state's military doctrine is built around the concept of mobile warfare. Israel's concern is with having sufficient strategic depth to engage an enemy attack and destroy it, rather than depending on a fixed barrier. From a purely military standpoint, Israel would view this barrier as an accident waiting to happen. The view of barriers (such as the Suez Canal) is that they can all be breached using appropriate, massed military force.

Mediocrates

09-06-2003, 12:40 PM

This is the critical point. From the Israeli standpoint, the wall is not a military solution. It is not a Maginot Line designed to protect against enemy main force; it is designed to achieve a very particular, very limited and very important paramilitary goal. It is designed to stop the infiltration of Palestinian paramilitaries into Israel without requiring either the direct occupation of Palestinian territory -- something that has not worked anyway -- nor precluding the creation of a Palestinian state. It is not the Maginot Line, it is an Iron Curtain. And this is where the conceptual problems start to crop up.

The Iron Curtain was a fairly impermeable barrier. Nothing moved across it except at very clearly defined and limited checkpoints. The traffic at these checkpoints was quite low during most of the Cold War, and there was ample opportunity for inspection and interrogation of traffic headed in either direction. Even so, these checkpoints were used by Western intelligence both to penetrate Warsaw Pact countries and to extract people. There were other points along the frontier where more informal traffic crossed, but what never took place -- particularly after the Berlin Wall went up -- was mass, interzonal traffic on a continual basis.

The Iron Curtain never looked like the U.S.-Mexican border, nor can the U.S.-Mexican border become an Iron Curtain because neither the United States nor Mexico wants that to happen. Trade is continual, and the movement of illegal labor from Mexico to the United States is informally viewed by the U.S. government as necessary. The U.S.-Mexican border is therefore a barrier to almost nothing -- virtually everything, legal and illegal, flows across the barrier. As much as it is disliked, the flow is needed.

For the Israeli security model to work, economic relations between Israel and Palestine will have to be ruptured. The idea of controlled movement of large numbers of workers, trucks and so on across the border is incompatible with the idea of the fence as a security barrier. Once movement is permitted, movement is permitted. Along with that movement will come guerrillas, weapons and whatever anyone wants to send across. You cannot be a little bit pregnant on this: Either Israel seals its frontier, or the fence is a waste of steel and manpower. If the wall is not continual and impermeable, it may as well not be there.

The geopolitical idea underlying the fence is that that it will not be permeable. If this goal is achieved, regardless of where the final line of the fence will be, then economic and social relations between Israel and Palestine will cease to exist except through third-party transit. Forgetting the question of Jerusalem -- for if Jerusalem is an open city, the fence may as well not be built -- this poses a huge strategic challenge.

Palestinians historically have depended on Israel economically. If Israel closes off its frontiers, the only contiguous economic relationship will be with Jordan. In effect, Palestine would become a Jordanian dependency. However, it will not be clear over time which is the dog and which is the tail. Jordan already has a large Palestinian population that has, in the past, threatened the survival of the Hashemite Bedouin regime. By sealing off Palestinian and Israeli territories, the Israelis would slam Palestine and Jordan together. Over the not-so-long term, this could mean the end of Hashemite Jordan and the creation of a single Palestinian state on both sides of the Jordan River.

There are Israelis -- including Sharon, in our view -- who would not object to this outcome. They have argued that the Hashemite presence in Amman has long distorted the reality in the region. The Hashemite regime was installed by Britain after World War I. In the opinion of some Israelis, Jordan ought to be the real Palestine. Therefore, if the fence results in the fall of the Jordanian monarchy and the creation of a unitary Palestinian state, these Israelis would find this a positive development. Indeed, one argument goes that a Jordan with boundaries roughly analogous to pre-1967 lines would undermine Palestinian radical movements by creating a more stable, less aggressive Palestinian nation-state.

Two other scenarios exist. In one, the Hashemites survive and drive many of the Palestinians on the east bank of the Jordan into the West Bank; the Israelis maintain their cordon sanitaire and the Palestinian nation-state becomes an untenable disaster -- trapped between two enemies, Israel and Jordan. Israel would not object to this, but the problem is that the level of desperation achieved in Palestine might prove so chaotic that it either would threaten Israeli national security or set into motion processes in the Arab world -- and among Israel's Western allies -- that would increase pressure on Israel. In other words, the Israelis would wind up strategically where they started, with the non-trivial exception of fewer or no suicide bombings.

The other scenario is that the Palestinians do merge with Jordan, but -- given the dynamics of the Arab and Islamic worlds -- the new nation-state does not moderate but instead generates, with assistance from other Arabs, a major military strike force for whom the fence represents at most a minor tactical barrier rather than a strategic force. Under this scenario, the consequences would be a return to the strategic situation of 1948-1967 (except for Egypt's participation), with a potentially more powerful enemy to the east. If Egypt were to change its policies, the outcome could be strategically disastrous for Israel.

The problem with the fence, therefore, is this:

1. If it is to be effective as a barrier, it must be nearly absolute; large-scale movement cannot be permitted.
2. If a Palestinian state is isolated, it would develop a dependency on Jordan that could topple the Hashemite regime, creating a potential strategic threat to Israel.

The fence strategy works only if the Palestinian-Jordanian relationship yields a politically moderate Palestinian state. That might happen, but there is no reason to be certain that it will. The essential purpose of the fence is to give Israel control of its security. The problem is that Israel can control the construction of the fence, but not the evolution of events after the fence is built. At some point in the process, Israel becomes dependent on the actions of others.

This is Israel's core strategic dilemma. At some point, no matter what it does, it becomes dependent on events that are not under its control. In some scenarios, solving the problem of suicide bombings leads into a massive deterioration of Israel's strategic position. Israeli leaders obviously want to avoid that, but the fence pushes out the strategic problem and paradoxically intensifies it, rather than solving it. Israeli security continues to depend on the decisions of the Palestinians. The fence is an attempt to take control of Israel's future out of Palestinian hands and place it securely in Israeli hands, but the fact is that what the Palestinians do will continue to affect Israel's security.

As is frequently the case in this world, Israel does not have good choices. It has to make some bad ones work.

old-reb

09-07-2003, 03:24 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates

The other scenario is that the Palestinians do merge with Jordan, but -- given the dynamics of the Arab and Islamic worlds -- the new nation-state does not moderate but instead generates, with assistance from other Arabs, a major military strike force for whom the fence represents at most a minor tactical barrier rather than a strategic force. Under this scenario, the consequences would be a return to the strategic situation of 1948-1967 (except for Egypt's participation), with a potentially more powerful enemy to the east. If Egypt were to change its policies, the outcome could be strategically disastrous for Israel.

The fence is an attempt to take control of Israel's future out of Palestinian hands and place it securely in Israeli hands, but the fact is that what the Palestinians do will continue to affect Israel's security.

As is frequently the case in this world, Israel does not have good choices. It has to make some bad ones work.

Hello Mediocrates,

That was a long couple of articles but the main message to me is to think each choice out to the conclusion. I hear a lot of do this and do that but not many people think too far ahead to understand the end result.

I posted Powells feel good speech about the road map and for a couple of days I was sold on it; then I went back to the fact that it was not a road map to peace at all but a road map to a peaceful surrender of Israel to Islam.

The road map was hammered out by four groups:UN, USA, Russia and the EU. I don't see Israel on that list.

About the Muslims winning the propaganda war. They control BBC and many other news media so no matter what comes out of Israel the only thing that comes to me is propaganda unless I go to the internet.

I stopped looking at BBC except to note how biased they are and I have found a competing news group I like.

http://www.itv.com/news/World.html

old reb

The Insider

09-08-2003, 01:50 AM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
A leader of the mass murder terrorist group Hamas was killed in a missile strike on Gaza today. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have announced the "hudna" is "over"--pretending they had adhered to a ceasefire.

Meanwhile, Abu Mazen has denounced Israel's attack on Hamas. Why let Israel kill the terrorists when the PA can make phony arrests, placing terrorists in jails without locks?

The good news is that, so far, the U.S. has said only that it demands the PA fight the terrorist groups. Hopefully, we will not hear any foolish remarks from the administration or State Dept today...

The old saying a cat has 9 lives can very well be reflected on the peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians, only 9 deaths would be more appropriate.
How many times does one have to declare the Road to peace a dead end, or dead, before someone actually realizes that it is no more.
True, there are few that are going to mourn for the death of the road to peace, because even the most optimistic pacifist of the lot, had to realize that until the Palestinians rid themselves of their current leadership, no external peace initiative can work.
Prime Minister Abu Mazen realized this and resigned on the weekend. His realization that he was fighting a losing battle and what was more important to him was that he was losing face by not being able to stand up to his commitments, led him to his decision, knowing full well that he himself was putting the final nails in the coffin.
Now the questions that are being asked in Israel are.
1) Do we expel Yasser Arafat?
2) Who, if anyone, do we talk to?
3) What are our allies, the Americans going to do now?
Israel is at open war with terrorism, as is the rest of the world. (Or so they claim.) On Saturday, Israel tried to assassinate the head of the Hamas, the Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, and he escaped. Afterwards, the Hamas openly stated that they would attack anywhere and anytime. Even so, the European Community needed another sitting to decide whether or not Hamas movement is a terror movement or not. (They eventually agreed on it this morning.)
Yasser Arafat on Wednesday stated that the road map was dead and yet comments that were heard from the White House and the European Union were We are very disturbed about comments being made..
The Road to Peace died the second that Abu Mazen returned from signing it in Aquaba and discovered that he was alone and that he was only a puppet in the hands of Yasser Arafat. His statements about disarming the terror factions were unrealistic and everyone knew it, but him and those optimists that wanted to believe it.
There is another old saying.
If someone says you are drunk, take care. If two people tell you are drunk, stop drinking!
For those who had any doubt, it is time to look the truth in the eyes and to admit it, there is no peace process any more.
Having written those words, I have to admit, that I am saddened by them, as I know that we are destined to live with the Palestinians and now we find ourselves again looking for the right way to go about doing it the right way.