PA begins crackdown on militants

[sharonbn]

PA begins crackdown on militants, seals off Gaza tunnels

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/332414.html

Maybe late, but better than never.
We should see if this marks a true long period effort or just lip service.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
PA begins crackdown on militants, seals off Gaza tunnels

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/332414.html

Maybe late, but better than never.
We should see if this marks a true long period effort or just lip service.

Uh huh. Are they capturing terrorist leaders and extraditing them to Israel?

They will do the minimum required to fool eager western diplomats. Like putting terrorists in protective custody.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Uh huh. Are they capturing terrorist leaders and extraditing them to Israel?

They will do the minimum required to fool eager western diplomats. Like putting terrorists in protective custody.

You also have to remember Israel didn't dismantle the illegal settlements that sprung up in the last two years (as it was required by the roadmap). Instead of pointing out the violations of the roadmap (an utterly futile process imo), You have to see what's realistically achieavable by both sides.

The fact that PA is making actual steps to hinder operations of terror groups is a positive sign. Its not enough but it is an Israeli interest that PA will do the job of disarming the terror groups because they can do it bettr than IDF. Israel should give PA the time to show the seriousness of its intentions. If needed, Israel should aid the PA in its job, e.g. sharing intelligence, etc. This process will achieve two goals: it will build a work relationship with PA and hopefully will result in crippling of terror group and reducing of alerts and attacks.
Only time will tell if this really where we're going to, but Israel should give it a chance.

[old-reb]

When the PLA tiger changes its stripes it is for export propaganda only.

When is history has PLA ever negotiated with Israel in good faith?

They are talking peace now because they are scared sthitless of Israel retatation. It is ok for the pawns to become martayrs but not the Kings or knights

old reb

[sharonbn]

I already answered that.
Israel didn't implement what was required from it by the roadmap.
Also, Israel violated several agreements it signed with Palestinians (e.g. Oslo, Wye) So the picture is not black and white as you present it.

Israel and PA are very good at pointing out violations of the other side, and very poor at holding their end of the bargain.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn
PA begins crackdown on militants,





LOL

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by sharonbn
You also have to remember Israel didn't dismantle the illegal settlements that sprung up in the last two years (as it was required by the roadmap). Instead of pointing out the violations of the roadmap (an utterly futile process imo), You have to see what's realistically achieavable by both sides.

The fact that PA is making actual steps to hinder operations of terror groups is a positive sign. Its not enough but it is an Israeli interest that PA will do the job of disarming the terror groups because they can do it bettr than IDF. Israel should give PA the time to show the seriousness of its intentions. If needed, Israel should aid the PA in its job, e.g. sharing intelligence, etc. This process will achieve two goals: it will build a work relationship with PA and hopefully will result in crippling of terror group and reducing of alerts and attacks.
Only time will tell if this really where we're going to, but Israel should give it a chance.
As I considered responding to your postings in this thread, I thought at first of saying, "If I were a Jew or an Israeli citizen, I would fear people like you as much as the jihadists. But it quickly occurred to me that those preconditions were not necessary. I already do fear people like you as much as I do the enemies of Israel.

[sharonbn]

I will ignore your patronizing bull

if you didn't notice, unlike you, I AM an Israeli citizen, living in Israel. So if you don't have something to contribute, I suggest you stay safe wherever you are and let us Israelis handle our problems.

If you absolutely need to fear someone I suggest you take a look at your warmonger president, who fabricated intelligence reports to go to unnecessary war with Iraq, and is now bleeding there.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I will ignore your patronizing bull

if you didn't notice, unlike you, I AM an Israeli citizen, living in Israel. So if you don't have something to contribute, I suggest you stay safe wherever you are and let us Israelis handle our problems.

If you absolutely need to fear someone I suggest you take a look at your warmonger president, who fabricated intelligence reports to go to unnecessary war with Iraq, and is now bleeding there.
Patronizing was a poor word selection, but I understand that you do not like to be criticized for your views. Using your Israeli citizenship as some kind of club to fend off the opinions of those who don't live in Israel is a ridiculous rhetorical device and certainly clashes with your own "right" to criticize the President of the United States. By your own logic you would be out of line to do so.

Get a grip! Your status as "one" person living in Israel does not preclude anyone in the world from taking their own positions on the issue. Israel is not some podunk unheard of place but is on the frontburner for all intelligent people and demands the attention and considerations of nations far and wide given the effect on the people of the world that it has. Besides, with my share of tax money coming to Israel, I feel it my duty to take a stand.

The snide remark that I "should stay safe wherever I am and let you Israelis handle the problems" is hilarious. Let YOU handle the problems unchallenged? Don't you ever count on it. <deleted by moderator> . I find them to be positions that undermine Israel, a country for which I have an abiding fondness.

[Mediocrates]

So I would ask sharonb what s/he thinks is a reasonable time line? A year, five? What would sharonb think is a reasonable success criteria? 50%, 20%, 5%?


It's a little like asking a vicecop what he thinks a piece of ass should cost.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I will ignore your patronizing bull

if you didn't notice, unlike you, I AM an Israeli citizen, living in Israel. So if you don't have something to contribute, I suggest you stay safe wherever you are and let us Israelis handle our problems.

If you absolutely need to fear someone I suggest you take a look at your warmonger president, who fabricated intelligence reports to go to unnecessary war with Iraq, and is now bleeding there.


I’d like to know how you think that the PA is going to jail more than half of the Palestinians. Who’s going to throw Arafat in Jail?

I don’t think anyone in their right mind should share information with the PA. Just a short while ago this organization attempted to import millions of dollars worth of weapons to kill Israelis.

Now you claim that Israel should give the PA time to dismantle the various terrorist organizations in the WB and GS. How much time? How many Israeli lives would you be willing to sacrifice while this takes place? How about your own life?

It seems to me that MichaelC or anyone that isn’t considered a security risk has the right to visit Israel. Tourism is an industry that Israel depends on for its economic well being. Each and every Israeli citizen should expect that its government is doing it’s utmost to prevent terrorism and so should every visitor.

The PA has lied, lied, lied, lied, lied, lied…and has acted in bad faith since day one. Settlement this and settlement that what garbage! There’s no way to justify the killing of innocent civilians for land that’s practically worthless.

[sharonbn]

MichaelC,

what you said was not "criticism". You didn't say "I believe you're wrong". You said I am worse than a suicide bomber (you fear me more than you fear him.) That's not criticism. What you did was delegitimize my pov. That's why you enraged me.

I don't fend off criticism, what you said is called PROVOCATION. I expect minimal courtesy from the people I converse with. You showed utter disrespect for my pov. It says something about your discussion manners.

and keep the discussion free from personal remarks.

[sharonbn]

please don't twist my words.

I do not justify terror attacks. I want to stop these attacks asap. I believe the military option will not solve the problem.
I pointed out three things :

1) I believe that PA, once it put its mind to it, is more capable of stopping Hamas, IJ than IDF.

2) The article reported one action PA did against terror infrastructure.

3) eventually, Israel will have to sit down and negotiate with PA. It is better for Israel to identify the most moderate Palestinian leadership and aid them gain popularity and power.

Abbas is not Arafat. I believe Israel should see if maybe Abbas has made a strategic decision to stop terror. He needs some time to succeed.

we can always re-conqure GS and WB and go back to the first intifadah. If someone thinks re-conquering Palestine will solve the problems, they need a quick history lesson. To hold a foreign people by force has never succeeded. Mass transfer, a.k.a ethnic cleansing will not be permitted by the world.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by sharonbn
MichaelC,

what you said was not "criticism". You didn't say "I believe you're wrong". You said I am worse than a suicide bomber (you fear me more than you fear him.) That's not criticism. What you did was delegitimize my pov. That's why you enraged me.

I don't fend off criticism, what you said is called PROVOCATION. I expect minimal courtesy from the people I converse with. You showed utter disrespect for my pov. It says something about your discussion manners.

and keep the discussion free from personal remarks.
<deleted by moderator>

<deleted by moderator>

<deleted by moderator>

[tandem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I already answered that.
Israel didn't implement what was required from it by the roadmap.
Also, Israel violated several agreements it signed with Palestinians (e.g. Oslo, Wye) So the picture is not black and white as you present it.

Israel and PA are very good at pointing out violations of the other side, and very poor at holding their end of the bargain.
if you remember the text of the roadmap, you will see that the very first thing the roadmap says is for the palestinians to destroy the terrorist organizations, and this will be followed by an israeli withdrawl from the territories and easing restrictions on palestinians. of course, on the palestinian side, we never even went past the first step. the palestinians never cracked down on terror and they have no intention of doing so now

at first, the palestinians said "we will crack down on terror our way". remember what dahlan told the israelis? "trust me, you won't see any more buses exploding." then the palestinians said they will not confront the islamic militants by force, which is essentially what they are required to do by the roadmap since these terrorist groups will certainly not just disappear

israel on the other hand did dismantle some illegal outposts and continues to do so. of course, i will acknowledge that until now not all the outposts built since sept. 2000 have been removed, but at least some have. also, israel handed over a lot of territories to the palestinians, and was even in the process to hand over 4 additional cities in judea and samaria, including ramallah, where arafat is currently trapped. in addition to that, nearly 50,000 palestinians were allowed to return to work in israel

so, to summarize, we see the israelis making many concessions to the palestinians considering the fragile situation, but thus far the palestinian side didn't do ANYTHING to stop the terrorism. heck they didn't even went past the first step of the roadmap which the INTERNATIONAL community drafted together that OBLIGES the palestinians to crack down on the militants emenating from territories controlled by the PA. the palestinians agreed to the roadmap, but thus far have done nothing outlined in it

as for the latest crackdown, the sealing of one tunnel used to smuggle weapons: well, let's be realistic here. these tunnels need to be destroyed. all the palestinian security forces did is seal them with sand. why not blow it up with explosives like the IDF does? oh yeah, i forgot. the palestinians need to save the explosives for suicide belts. seriously sharon, this is your idea of cracking down on terrorism? lmao!! i'm at awe at how naive the left is. after all, you, the left, the ma'arachnikim, meretz, are responsible for this mess, for making deals with filth like arafat

[L@mplighterM]

Arafat refuses to relinquish control over security, causing crisis in Palestinian government

LARA SUKHTIAN, Associated Press Writer Sunday, August 24, 2003


(08-24) 07:30 PDT RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) --

Palestinian leaders were locked in a power struggle Sunday triggered by Yasser Arafat's attempt to hand over control of security forces to a loyalist in apparent hope of sidelining the U.S.-backed Palestinian security chief.

The current security chief, Mohammed Dahlan, is supported by Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, whom Arafat repeatedly tried to undermine since appointing him in April under U.S. pressure.

International mediators want Arafat to relinquish control of the security forces and allow Abbas and Dahlan to clamp down on militants in response to a Hamas bus bombing that killed 21 people in Jerusalem last week. Arafat continues to command several of the security branches, while Abbas and Dahlan supervise the rest.

Instead of giving up control over armed men, Arafat proposed Saturday to pass the supreme command to Nasser Yousef, a staunch Arafat loyalist. Such an appointment would effectively sideline Dahlan.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/08/24/international1030EDT0431.DTL

[sharonbn]

yes, I agree, Arafat is a major obstacle in starting the peace process.

I also believe Abbas would agree with me.

However, If Israel deports Arafat, he may become a sort-of martyr in the eyes of the Pals. Maybe the US and Europe can help here by applying constant pressure on Arafat to step down...

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I will ignore your patronizing bull

if you didn't notice, unlike you, I AM an Israeli citizen, living in Israel. So if you don't have something to contribute, I suggest you stay safe wherever you are and let us Israelis handle our problems.


Since I started posting on this forum, you are not the first Israeli I have heard tell an American to butt out and mind his or her own business, or, told us we are safe. Why is that? Israel has very few friends left on this planet, and fewer still, that give you tens of millions of dollars each year, and what is it we ask for in return? I can tell you, as an American, I haven't a clue what we get from you people. Yet when we go to clean out that rat's nest that was showering Scud missiles on you, during the Gulf War, and has since been working its way to acquiring nuclear weapons, you call our President "a warmonger". (BTW, Hussein didn't have to have a nuclear weapons program. He could, like so many of your other neighbors, just buy one, or more, "off the rack". As a matter of fact, I heard of a report where he was planing to do just that, and put it in a boat in an Israeli harbor.)

And in case you haven't noticed, Americans haven't been safe for long time, and I'm not talking about just the towers collapsing. It started long before that.

The towers coming down got our attention in a big way; 3,000 people dying in a very short time. How many Israelis have died in terrorist attacks; in total? It doesn't matter, really, because I'm not interested in playing a numbers game. No one should be dying of terrorist attacts, period. Our "warmonger" President is addressing that issue and spending billions of our treasure to that end. (BTW, our government doesn't create any wealth whatsoever. Every stinking penny comes from "we the people".)

So now, the vast majority of Americans understand that we have a common enemy, but you, apparently, don't see it that way, because they happen to be your neighbors. But your neighbors got on planes and crashed them into buildings in our country. Clearly, the world has gotten smaller and we're all neighbors, today, and it's only a matter of time before they resort to the same tactics they use in your cities and towns, and buses.

It seems as though some of you Israelis have a death wish, since you go out of your way to alienate the very, if not the only people that are trying to help you. That, or you're in total denial as to the ultimate objective of your neighbors.

[MichaelC]

I want everyone in this thread to know that there are many of my postings that have been fully deleted so that it will appear that they were never made.

There are some posts still here with Sharonbn's red highlighted deletions, but by totally deleting everything that I now post, she thinks to make it appear that I am no longer monitoring this thread.

She just deleted my reply to Johnny Yuma's post.

What do other posters think of this method?

[sharonbn]

Johnny Yuma,

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh towards the US.
In fact I do appriciate the strong and long lasting friendship between the two countries and I do believe we share a common enemy - Islam fundementalism.

My angry post was a response to a provocation by another person here, I regret being dragged into something I didn't wish.

I outlined my pov earlier in this thread:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=62337#post62337

the main point being that I believe eventually Israel and Palestinians will have to sit together and negotiate a compromise. That in mind, I believe it in Israel's best interest to suport the moderate Pal factions and aid them in gaining power.

[MichaelC]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Johnny Yuma,

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh towards the US.
In fact I do appriciate the strong and long lasting friendship between the two countries and I do believe we share a common enemy - Islam fundementalism.

My angry post was a response to a provocation by another person here, I regret being dragged into something I didn't wish.

I outlined my pov earlier in this thread:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=62337#post62337

the main point being that I believe eventually Israel and Palestinians will have to sit together and negotiate a compromise. That in mind, I believe it in Israel's best interest to suport the moderate Pal factions and aid them in gaining power.
As I considered responding to your postings in this thread, I thought at first of saying, "If I were a Jew or an Israeli citizen, I would fear people like you as much as the jihadists. But it quickly occurred to me that those preconditions were not necessary. I already do fear people like you as much as I do the enemies of Israel.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Johnny Yuma,

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh towards the US.
In fact I do appriciate the strong and long lasting friendship between the two countries and I do believe we share a common enemy - Islam fundementalism.

My angry post was a response to a provocation by another person here, I regret being dragged into something I didn't wish.

I outlined my pov earlier in this thread:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=62337#post62337

the main point being that I believe eventually Israel and Palestinians will have to sit together and negotiate a compromise. That in mind, I believe it in Israel's best interest to suport the moderate Pal factions and aid them in gaining power.

I understand the frustration you feel. Honestly, I do. I know it's tough being subjected to the unending and daily killings, and the destruction. I don't envy you in the least. Still, it should be obvious to you that the vast majority of these people are not for peaceful coexistence. It's obvious to me, and I don't even live there.

Look to the streets. When are the greater numbers of palestinians in the street; when they are marching for peace, or when they are marching for blood? When are they jumping for joy; when there is talk of peace, or when they have slaughtered 24 or more innocent men, women and children that are Israelis?

Abbas has stated publically, that he cannot address Hamas or the other terrorist organizations, and cannot bring them under control, lest there be civil war. And the last time I checked, it took feet on the ground to have a civil war, and they're not including Israeli feet. That means there are a large number palestinian supporters of Hamas and Islamic Jihad (to name just two) that are not included in that number that comprise those who want peace with Israel.

So I fail to see your rationale about how the PA can moderate with Hamas, since they themselves have stated they cannot. I'm puzzled by this.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
You also have to remember Israel didn't dismantle the illegal settlements that sprung up in the last two years (as it was required by the roadmap). Instead of pointing out the violations of the roadmap (an utterly futile process imo), You have to see what's realistically achieavable by both sides.

Sorry, but I don't agree to the Arab demand for a Jew-free West Bank.

Plus, Israel has dismantled some so-called "illegal settlements."

The bottom line is you try to convince yourself that Israel must have done *something* wrong. Because only by believing that can you maintain the illusion that peace with the Palestinians is possible.

The fact that PA is making actual steps to hinder operations of terror groups is a positive sign. Its not enough but it is an Israeli interest that PA will do the job of disarming the terror groups because they can do it bettr than IDF. Israel should give PA the time to show the seriousness of its intentions. If needed, Israel should aid the PA in its job, e.g. sharing intelligence, etc. This process will achieve two goals: it will build a work relationship with PA and hopefully will result in crippling of terror group and reducing of alerts and attacks.

The PA has had ten years to fight terrorist groups--or have you forgotten why Israel helped them build a 20,000-man police force during the Oslo "peace process"?

I know it's hard to face the truth, but everything the Palestinians have done has been designed to fool the West in general and disarm Israel in particular.

This is how evil people operate. They do not announce "Lo, I am evil and will mass murder women, children, elderly, and other defenseless people."

Instead, they blame the victims, claim they regret having to kill but they have no other choice, or say it is a few fanatics that they can't control.

Lies, lies, and more lies.

Only time will tell if this really where we're going to, but Israel should give it a chance.

Every time Israel gives the Palestinians a chance more Jews are massacred. How many decades of chances are required? How much evidence of soothing words in English followed by calls for "one million martyrs" in Arabic? How many more lies from the 10,000 Palestinian 'Comical Ali's must we listen to?

Sharonbn, wake up.

Islamism = 21st century Nazism.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Maybe the US and Europe can help here by applying constant pressure on Arafat to step down...

pssst, Sharonbn

Wake Up!

[sharonbn]

Johnny Yuma,

Palestinian public opinion changes with the current events, just like the Israeli and American ones. So, support for the terror groups may shift if the ordinary people feel there's some hope for a progress in the near future.

PA proved in the past that it CAN deal with the terror groups. During Netanyahu's term, the region was quiet for more than two years.

Besides, I really don't see an alternative, we can re-conqure the terrotiroes - and then what? we can't rule the Palestinians because they resist it. We can't mass transfer 3.5 million people because there's nowhere to put them and I don't believe the western world will alow this (remember Bosnia)

So at some point we'll HAVE to sit and talk. In my eyesm its inevitable. I want this to happen asap. I believe Palestinians are tired of the violence. If Israel shows the Palestinians that there is some diplomatic horizon, some hope of an end to the cycle of violence - they will begin leaving the extremists and the violence will die down.

It requires patience and long term vision. but I think there's simply no other realistic way.

[ibrodsky]

Notice the four Hamas barbarians killed today by the IAF were sitting in a vacant lot right next to a PA security post.

I guess Abbas' men are trying real hard to dismantle the terrorist groups.

[sharonbn]

well, what do you suggest?
do you think re-conquering the territories will end the terror attacks?
Maybe it will cause even more people to join the extremist groups?

what do you want to do?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
PA proved in the past that it CAN deal with the terror groups. During Netanyahu's term, the region was quiet for more than two years.



That was because Netanyahu made it clear that if there were more terrorist attacks he would make the Palestinians pay more than they bargained for.

Knowing that "infidels" hold elections and change leaders every few years, the Palestinian mass murderers decided to wait for Netanyahu to be replaced with someone less clear-sighted.

Or do you imagine it was because they felt Netanyahu was more sympathetic to their goals that they decided to put a lid on terrorism for two years?

[sharonbn]

do you think Ariel Sharon is being soft on the Pals?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
well, what do you suggest?
do you think re-conquering the territories will end the terror attacks?
Maybe it will cause even more people to join the extremist groups?

what do you want to do?

The only possible solution to this type of conflict is for one side to defeat the other militarily.

Your understanding of human nature is quite different from mine. I find that people do things they believe are working or will work. The Palestinians believe that decades of terrorism (and an incredibly high Arab birth rate) will cause Israelis to emigrate elsewhere--causing either Israel to collapse or Israel + the territories to become predominantly Muslim.

If the Palestinians were dealt the military defeat they so richly deserve, and saw that members of terrorist groups are relentlessly hunted down and killed, that would not encourage more Arabs to become terrorists. Quite the opposite.

You tell me why there was less terrorism under Netanyahu. Was he soft on terrorism?

What "causes" Arabs to join terrorist mass murder groups is the prospect of evil triumphing. Many Arabs and Muslims believe that despite the Taliban and Saddam being deposed, they are winning. After all, both Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein are still alive. Both the US and Israel are under attack.

The Islamists believe--with good reason--that the West lacks the will to fight all the way to victory. The Islamists know that they are willing to commit any atrocity to get their way (because they place no value on life). More importantly, their strategy is to force the West to commit atrocities in order to defeat them, because they know most western leaders would rather lose than do that.

So yes, I believe reconquering the WB and Gaza would be an important first step. But it must be followed up quickly with a ruthless assault on Palestinian mass murder groups.

Terrorist bombings that massacre 20+ people require planning, money, resources, organization, and a network of support. It is naive to think a string of such attacks is the work of a few extremists. The good news is that if terrorist organizations are truly disrupted they will be reduced to individual shootings and knifings which are much easier to defend against.

[old-reb]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sharonbn
[B]Johnny Yuma,

Palestinian public opinion changes with the current events, just like the Israeli and American ones. So, support for the terror groups may shift if the ordinary people feel there's some hope for a progress in the near future.

Sharonbn,

There is something you don't understand. US public opinion comes from the bottom up.

While Pls opinion comes from the Mosque. Anyone that disagrees with Arafat may be drawn and quartered ( have read of this happening).

old reb

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn
well, what do you suggest?
do you think re-conquering the territories will end the terror attacks?
Maybe it will cause even more people to join the extremist groups?

what do you want to do?


No Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims = No Islamic fundamentalist terrorists.

Before anyone flies off the handle I’m not advocating killing every Muslim in the world. The terrorists and supporters should be eliminated!

[old-reb]

Originally posted by sharonbn
well, what do you suggest?
do you think re-conquering the territories will end the terror attacks?
Maybe it will cause even more people to join the extremist groups?

what do you want to do?

MGB8 has a plan whose time has come.
---------------------------------------
MGB8
Senior Member

The problem's with "unilateral withdrawal" are several:

(1) It would be seen as a retreat - a sign of weakness (which would still be complained against).

(2) It would allow terrorist groups to arm themselves and grow on their own, without any restraint, getting better and better weapons ... how long until WMD?

No....we need to have a 3 step plan:

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR.

Go into the WB and Gaza and kill or arrest each and every Hamas, Islamic Jihad and even Fatah member. Be brutal and ruthless. Destroy their homes. Avoid the death of non-terrorists as much as possible...

This idea that "collective punishment" is wrong is STUPID - WWII was ended by collective punishment (Firebomb of Berlin, Japan, Nukes), as was the Civil War (Sherman's March.) MOST WARS ONLY END WITH COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT!!! When the non-warriors realize that supporting the war is stupid and will lead only to more suffering. The Arabs understand this (what do you think terrorism is? Its bypassing the military and just killing innocents) - their strategy, which HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE, is to punish/kill the Israeli collective to achieve political aims.

Now, we don't sink to their level (randum bombings of mosques, etc.) - but this outrage over non-lethal collective punishment is pure BS.

Oh - back to the topic at hand - you arrest Arafat and TRY HIM.


(2) "Palestinian Funds" are used, along with international aid, to purchase part of the Sinai - say 1/3 of it. Egypt can be pressured by the US (and hopefully Europe) to sell part of their land. That land combines with Gaza to create "Palestine Proper."

As soon as the terrorists are all dead, you start the process of democratic elections in this new Palestine.

(3) As for the west bank, A road is built into it from Gaza, like the Road to Berlin. Part of the WB becomes autonomous, but under ISRAELI military control (so that Israel can fight any new terrorists that spring up, those who survived.) NO new Arab immigration to the WB - marriages yes, natural growth - sure. They can vote in the Palestine State's elections. The wall/fence remains. Israel offers incentives ($$$$) for Pal Arabs to move out of the WB into Palestine Proper - under Arab/Muslim soveriegnty, as opposed to being under local autonomy but Israeli military sovereignty.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
do you think Ariel Sharon is being soft on the Pals?

I think the Palestinians have been amazed by several developments:

1. Despite decades of terrorist mass murder, many western "peace activists" and even elected leaders remain or have become sympathetic to the Palestinian cause.

2. The US has restrained Israel from fighting terrorists.

3. Despite the PA breaking every agreement, despite the Arab world's determination to destroy Israel by hook or by crook, Israel is still willing to "sit down and negotiate."

Furthermore, we must remember that the Arabs have succeeded in branding Ariel Sharon a "war criminal." The Europeans are all too happy to believe this as it vindicates their harsh treatment of Jews in the past.

My point is that Ariel Sharon does not want to be remembered by history as a "war criminal." So he has gone out of his way to engage in a "peace process" despite knowing its chances of bearing fruit were very slim to nil.

So yes, I think Sharon has been too patient, too willing to believe Abbas could form an independent gov't, too willing to believe that Abbas the Holocaust-denier would be a force for compromise and reconciliation, and so on.

However, Sharon is also under pressure from his own party, the families of victims, and probably the military to at least draw some red lines.

I don't think Sharon has been a complete pushover by any means. But I do think he is reluctant to be the one to finally defeat the Palestinians. I think he wants his term in office to disprove the lie he is a mass murderer. He is being tempted day in and day out to inflict much heavier casualties on the Palestinian... I think when he is turned out of office he will be relieved to let someone else actually finish the job.

[Communication]

Sharon,

With each incident of violence that occured after both parties agreed to the Road Map, Abbas and Dhalan came out with public statements that there was nothing they could do other than warn the terror groups not to violate the hudna. And yet, the PA seemed to have no problem going after the people who placed a bicycle packed with explosives that detonated outside PA headquarters, killing the perpetrators inside their homes. As is typical of Arab governments, they never act until their chickens come home to roost.

The terror groups placed demands on Israel knowing well in advance that Israel would be unable to commit to them, such as the release of 5000 prisoners, many who were responsible for the death and injuries of thousands of Israeli citizens. With each concession by Israel came a new demand and thus a new excuse for why the PA couldn't move forward with their part under the road map. Not only did some of the offshoots of the various gangs state publicly that they never agreed to the hudna, but after numerous goodwill gestures made by Israel, Nabil Shaath came out with the provacative statement that implicit in the terms of the road map was a Palestinian right of return, thereby foreshadowing yet another future breakdown in the peace process as a reward for Israeli concessions.

If there is going to be a Palestinian state, then the terror groups must go. There really is no way around it. Israel must negotiate with one party and not a half dozen murderous gangs. If the Palestinians want a country of their own, then they need to stop being pawns for every other Arab government and they need to start supporting the actions of a legitimate and accountable government of their own. They can't keep playing the oppressed victim card when the possability of acheiving an independent state is so close and within reach. And Jews need to get over their collective guilt for the price that was exacted from the Palestinians in the creation of Israel.

If I may make a suggestion, I would recommend that the PA take care of the terror groups in those territories that Israel has recently relinquished control of. It appears that they do have the ability to go after them and that they have made some efforts in the past few days. Let them continue. And it's not for Israel that they do any of this but for themselves. At the same time, Israel should be allowed to take care of the terror groups in those areas where they maintain control. Israel has the better resources, so together, maybe they can dismantle those groups once and for all. If it's not possible because the people back the terror groups over the PA, then we are dealing with the wrong people and the Palestinian people should be heard. If Hamas is truly the legitimate ruling gang over the Palestinian people, then the Palestinian people are not yet ready to join the world community as a member nation. In that case, Israel will have to think long and hard on what it wants to do. I would recommend taking as much land as needed for your own security, end the occupation, build your wall and take up a defensive position. If Israel is attacked, then they you retaliate as any nation would without the stigma of being an occupying force.

[L@mplighterM]

According to a spokesperson for the PA, Israel stopped a crackdown on terrorist groups because they killed a leading Hamas figure the other day.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ibrodsky

3. Despite the PA breaking every agreement, despite the Arab world's determination to destroy Israel by hook or by crook, Israel is still willing to "sit down and negotiate."



That’s part of the problem in my opinion, there’s no real bad consequence if the terrorist organizations continue their killing and destruction. It doesn’t really matter what they do or how many Jews they kill, it could be 1,000, 10,000 or 100,000 and eventually Israel would let bygones be bygones and agree to a ceasefire. A precedent was set when convicted criminals were released a couple of weeks ago.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Johnny Yuma,

Palestinian public opinion changes with the current events, just like the Israeli and American ones. So, support for the terror groups may shift if the ordinary people feel there's some hope for a progress in the near future.

PA proved in the past that it CAN deal with the terror groups. During Netanyahu's term, the region was quiet for more than two years.

Besides, I really don't see an alternative, we can re-conqure the terrotiroes - and then what? we can't rule the Palestinians because they resist it. We can't mass transfer 3.5 million people because there's nowhere to put them and I don't believe the western world will alow this (remember Bosnia)

So at some point we'll HAVE to sit and talk. In my eyesm its inevitable. I want this to happen asap. I believe Palestinians are tired of the violence. If Israel shows the Palestinians that there is some diplomatic horizon, some hope of an end to the cycle of violence - they will begin leaving the extremists and the violence will die down.

It requires patience and long term vision. but I think there's simply no other realistic way.

I guess my next question is how much patience and how long of a term are you willing to wait? I know that given infinite time no possibility can go unrealized, but at some point you have to pull Ocham's Razor out of your shoe and start slashing, else you can intellectualize, infinitely.

I don't think there is a chain of evidence to justify believing that the palestinians will begin leaving the extremists and the violence will die down, if Israel shows them there is some diplomatic horizon. Quite the contrary. There is long chain of evidence that it is more likely to be true that the palestinian violence will increase with time, regardless of any peace proposals. "Oslo" and "The Road Map" have both failed.

There's an old Irish proverb: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

[alexbmn]

if anyone wants to know why Israelis havent been able to muster the resolve to destroy their enemy, why they have allowed their children to be murdered with impunity why they no longer feel any outrage or anger over maimed infants one doesnt have to look much farther then our resident PA spokesman SharonB. In his opinion Israel is either wrong or at best equally is guilty as the PA. See I think his point of view was still tolerable before Camp David 2000 but right now I dont believe his view even deserves a response. He suffers from permanent leftist delusions which have infected a big part of the Israeli population. And one doesnt refute a desease .

[abu afak]

sharonbn

before you RESIGN and/or are Justifiably Fired, I suggest you read this string as to who is following the Roadmap more closeley.
(not to mention the gratuitous prisoner release)

"Palestinians and Bush Not Following Roadmap"

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3355


The PA is doing little to nothing to stop terror or arrest it's leaders-- Nor can they without starting The Necessary Civil War.

Elections and a new legitimized Government were called by Bush in the Roadmap so that Israel would have someone to negotiate with. .. Instead we have a Leader who's afraid to act and often concedes Arafat is still in charge-

The 'Roadsplat' is a Peace process in reverse, First a state and then an agreement what it's boundaries after.
and now even it's governmnet after.
This is no agreement at all.

Nothing has changed, Oslo was a Give away-- the PA got arms, legitimacy and control over alot of territory, and abused it.
Israel got terror....
Barak offered yet more... Israel got yet more terror.
Netanyahu was tough... Israel got relative peace.

I see the Intifada has worked on you at least, as you are ready to 'Cave' again and get nothing in return but death.

If you have no nerve to hold out for something substantial, don't whine that You're the 'real Israeli'... Just Leave

In fact, I suggest you just Leave the board as well for similar weakness and Lack of Nerve.. namely you're Abuse of duties and multiple counts thereof for virtually no reason but you were angry.

(No answer necessary)

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by ibrodsky

2. The US has restrained Israel from fighting terrorists.



I keep hearing this complaint. Mediocrates had a version of this as a signature line for quite some time; "America can fight terrorists but Israel can't? What the F?", or something like that. So I ask you, what do you think the reason the US government asks for restraint from Israel? Do you think it is for malevolent reasons? Do you think, seriously think, it's because the United States has a double standard? Isn't it more reasonable to believe that it's for a similar reason to that asked for during the Gulf War?

Give me your views.

[Mediocrates]

Not my tagline - never was.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I keep hearing this complaint. Mediocrates had a version of this as a signature line for quite some time; "America can fight terrorists but Israel can't? What the F?", or something like that. So I ask you, what do you think the reason the US government asks for restraint from Israel? Do you think it is for malevolent reasons? Do you think, seriously think, it's because the United States has a double standard? Isn't it more reasonable to believe that it's for a similar reason to that asked for during the Gulf War?

Give me your views.

I think that the current US administration has had a stop/go type of policy in allowing Israel to combat Islamic fundamentalism. Presumably that demand was to tame the Muslim world, perhaps hoping it would buy love and administration.

If I recall correctly Powell/Bush was trying to buy support for the war on Iraq by promising a Palestinian state to Islam. Considering the position of the terrorist’s organizations in the WB/GS I would classify that as selling the Israelis down the road.

An Islamic terrorist is an Islamic terrorist and they must be illuminated from the face of this earth. It has become abundantly clear that the US can’t go at this alone, it needs help.

Israel should be given the GREEN LIGHT by Bush, to conduct whatever action it wants to combat terrorism. Never mind the BS of giving them approval and then when they are in the middle of a war demand that they withdraw. That’s plain wrong!

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Not my tagline - never was.

I apologize. I mistook you for another... Must have hallucinated that... Someone will remember whose it was, I'm sure.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I think that the current US administration has had a stop/go type of policy in allowing Israel to combat Islamic fundamentalism. Presumably that demand was to tame the Muslim world, perhaps hoping it would buy love and administration.

If I recall correctly Powell/Bush was trying to buy support for the war on Iraq by promising a Palestinian state to Islam. Considering the position of the terrorist’s organizations in the WB/GS I would classify that as selling the Israelis down the road.

An Islamic terrorist is an Islamic terrorist and they must be illuminated from the face of this earth. It has become abundantly clear that the US can’t go at this alone, it needs help.

Israel should be given the GREEN LIGHT by Bush, to conduct whatever action it wants to combat terrorism. Never mind the BS of giving them approval and then when they are in the middle of a war demand that they withdraw. That’s plain wrong!

I agree, that Israel has the right to do whatever it wants to combat terrorism, as long as they stay out of the United States with their Uzi's and bulldozers. Any other country is okay, but not here. That's where I draw the line.....

[Donna]

Minusthejihad.


Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I apologize. I mistook you for another... Must have hallucinated that... Someone will remember whose it was, I'm sure.

[Johnny Yuma]

One last thing, about the GREEN LIGHT... since when did the Israelis need permission? Why not just do it? What's stopping them?

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by Donna
Minusthejihad.

Thanx. Sorry about that, Medio. I knew it began with "M"..... :D

[Lowell]

Originally posted by sharonbn
You also have to remember Israel didn't dismantle the illegal settlements that sprung up in the last two years (as it was required by the roadmap). Instead of pointing out the violations of the roadmap (an utterly futile process imo), You have to see what's realistically achieavable by both sides.

The fact that PA is making actual steps to hinder operations of terror groups is a positive sign. Its not enough but it is an Israeli interest that PA will do the job of disarming the terror groups because they can do it bettr than IDF. Israel should give PA the time to show the seriousness of its intentions. If needed, Israel should aid the PA in its job, e.g. sharing intelligence, etc. This process will achieve two goals: it will build a work relationship with PA and hopefully will result in crippling of terror group and reducing of alerts and attacks.
Only time will tell if this really where we're going to, but Israel should give it a chance.

What illegal settlements? Do you mean the farms and isolated homes where Jews live within the 'Palestinian' occupied areas of Israel? Since when is it illegal for Jews to live on Israeli land, despite the illegal occupation of the land by Arabs? Do you suggest making the 'Palestinian territories' judenrein? If so shouldn't all Arabs leave Israel?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
One last thing, about the GREEN LIGHT... since when did the Israelis need permission? Why not just do it? What's stopping them?

Theoretically Israel doesn’t need a green light, but I guess when the US cracks it whip you jump especially when that country is your trading partner.

The advantage of being the biggest fish is that you can dictate smaller countries foreign policy and sometimes that’s good and sometimes it isn’t.

[tandem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
the main point being that I believe eventually Israel and Palestinians will have to sit together and negotiate a compromise. That in mind, I believe it in Israel's best interest to suport the moderate Pal factions and aid them in gaining power.
for now the word "compromise" does not exist in the palestinian dictionary. did you ever look at the fatah charter? if not, let's see how willing the palestinians are to achieve a two-states solution living side by side in peace

chapter one, the movement's essential principles and goals (http://www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm):

"Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence."

should israel sign a peace agreement with the palestinians, will it bring an end to terror? not according to this commitment:

"Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated."

the ONLY way there can be peace between israel and the palestinians is for the entire fatah movement to be dissolved, and the complete elimination of militant organizations. only then, when sane arab moderates are in charge, we can begin to talk about peace. until then, sharon, i suggest you come to grips with reality and grasp the damage the leftists in israel have done

and for the record, the reason why there was relative quiet at some point when bibi was in charge was because under bibi the palestinians suffered serious retaliations for terrorist attacks. but there were other reasons

the americans and the europeans were pumping in a lot of money to build the palestinian security force and civilian infrastructure. in order to receive this money, the palestinians had to crack down on terrorist groups. as is well-known nowadays, arafat kept a lot of this money for himself, so it was important for him to see more money come in. his personal fortune depended on it. that's why he cracked down on terror. it served in his interest to do so. just like it served in his interest to release all the militants from prison shortly after the second intifada erupted and have them wage a murderous campaign of terror against israelis which he hoped would put internal pressure on the israeli government who would eventually agree to palestinian demands. in essence, arafat was forced by the europeans and the americans to crack down on the militants. he didn't do it because he wanted to do it or to honour his commitments to the oslo accords

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Theoretically Israel doesn’t need a green light, but I guess when the US cracks it whip you jump especially when that country is your trading partner.

The advantage of being the biggest fish is that you can dictate smaller countries foreign policy and sometimes that’s good and sometimes it isn’t.

Well... let's say for the sake of argument that the US gave Israel the green light to pounce on the pals and basically leave them with scorched earth. It'd be a logistical nightmare for the US to, 24/ 7, waiting around to support the operation or defend Israel in the aftermath; not to mention the blow-back.

What do you think the repercussions would be?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. Even though it's heresy on an Israeli site to use the word "eradicate", I'm for doing the biblical thing and killing every last one of them, including all their animals. The discussion about whether or not to move on them is predominately mental gymnastics, for me. If I were leading Israel you could stick a fork in the palestinians ass, 'cause they'd be done.....

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Well... let's say for the sake of argument that the US gave Israel the green light to pounce on the pals and basically leave them with scorched earth. It'd be a logistical nightmare for the US to, 24/ 7, waiting around to support the operation or defend Israel in the aftermath; not to mention the blow-back.

What do you think the repercussions would be?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. Even though it's heresy on an Israeli site to use the word "eradicate", I'm for doing the biblical thing and killing every last one of them, including all their animals. The discussion about whether or not to move on them is predominately mental gymnastics, for me. If I were leading Israel you could stick a fork in the palestinians ass, 'cause they'd be done.....

Islam will never love the US and as we speak I’m 100% certain that Islamic fundamentalists are planning the destruction of the US. The only thing that will solve the problem is the elimination of Islamic terrorists; unfortunately innocent civilians will die in the process.

Wipe out NY and/or LA with a nuclear bomb and there goes the US. The economy would collapse and there wouldn’t be enough money left to wage war against San Marino. These are dangerous times!

I expected Baghdad to be nuked followed by Damascus or Tehran. Wipe out their major cities and then see if they are willing to talk, if not kill them. To hell with liberation if they want to be liberated let them do it themselves. No American lives should be lost to liberate Muslims.

There should be zero tolerance for terrorism in this world.

I seem to recall that Israel was going to declare war against Syria back in 2002 but the US wouldn’t allow that.

In other words burn the WB and GS for starters and see what develops.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Communication
If I may make a suggestion, I would recommend that the PA take care of the terror groups in those territories that Israel has recently relinquished control of. It appears that they do have the ability to go after them and that they have made some efforts in the past few days. Let them continue. And it's not for Israel that they do any of this but for themselves.

I fully agree.

Originally posted by Communication
At the same time, Israel should be allowed to take care of the terror groups in those areas where they maintain control. Israel has the better resources, so together, maybe they can dismantle those groups once and for all. If it's not possible because the people back the terror groups over the PA, then we are dealing with the wrong people and the Palestinian people should be heard. If Hamas is truly the legitimate ruling gang over the Palestinian people, then the Palestinian people are not yet ready to join the world community as a member nation. In that case, Israel will have to think long and hard on what it wants to do. I would recommend taking as much land as needed for your own security, end the occupation, build your wall and take up a defensive position. If Israel is attacked, then they you retaliate as any nation would without the stigma of being an occupying force.

Basically, I agree with you Communication. Like me, you say that Palestinian society is under "test" to see if they may function as a member of the world community. I do believe that the ordinary Palestinian does not wish to see the destruction of Israel and slaughter of every Jew. Israel needs to show these people that there is a future for them - and they will rise to dominance.

I want to add to your words that I believe Israel needs to help the moderate Palestinian factions by showing restraint and not giving the extremists excuses to perform their atrocious attacks. The cycle of terror attack, retaliation, revenge, retaliation must be broken.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
Well... let's say for the sake of argument that the US gave Israel the green light to pounce on the pals and basically leave them with scorched earth. It'd be a logistical nightmare for the US to, 24/ 7, waiting around to support the operation or defend Israel in the aftermath; not to mention the blow-back.
I agree, Johnny Yuma.
Furthermore, I believe Ariel Sharon himself and the Israeli gov't know perfectly well that heavy military action and "scorched earth" straetgy is not realistic today, given the overwhelming power of world public opinion.
US support of such strategy may cause immense instability at home - remember public opposition during Vietnam.

Originally posted by Johnny Yuma
I guess my next question is how much patience and how long of a term are you willing to wait? I know that given infinite time no possibility can go unrealized, but at some point you have to pull Ocham's Razor out of your shoe and start slashing, else you can intellectualize, infinitely.

Ok, the question of time.

I believe Israel and PA both didn't give the ceasefire any chance from day one. So, IMO, if we wish to test Palestinian intentions, we need one full month in which Israel does not initiate military actions at all. no assassinations, arrests, etc. During that month, Israel will take a purely defensive stance.
I believe the nation of Israel can survive this.

The test will be in two areas:

1) in Palestinian controlled areas, PA must demonstrate its constant pursue of terrorists in forms of arrests, demolishing of bomb workshops, etc. Furthermore, PA must stop incitement in the media, and prove its functioning as rational diplomatic leadership.

2) in Israeli controlled areas, the ordinary Palestinian people must demonstrate that when given hope, they abandon support for the terrorists. They must openly show opposition to extremists.

It is expected that terror groups will try their utmost to shake the test period by initiating terror attacks. Strong defense measures must be applied to counter that, but never-the-less, some attacks will succeed. Israelis and Palestinians have to understand that these are the "swan song" of terrorism, they must show restraint and not succumb to provocation.

If the test seems to be going in the right direction, trust building steps may commence, such as limited release of prisoners, hand over of control of more cities, etc.

If the test fails, if PA does not do its job and the people do not abandon their support for terrorism. then I would go for Communication's proposal of fencing the WB and GS, taking a strong defensive stance and let them rot in their hatred.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I agree, Johnny Yuma.
Furthermore, I believe Ariel Sharon himself and the Israeli gov't know perfectly well that heavy military action and "scorched earth" straetgy is not realistic today, given the overwhelming power of world public opinion.
US support of such strategy may cause immense instability at home - remember public opposition during Vietnam.

This is a straw man. No one in any position of authority is talking about a "scorched earth policy."

Though the Islamists would not hesitate to use this approach if they had the means...

I believe Israel and PA both didn't give the ceasefire any chance from day one. So, IMO, if we wish to test Palestinian intentions, we need one full month in which Israel does not initiate military actions at all. no assassinations, arrests, etc. During that month, Israel will take a purely defensive stance.
I believe the nation of Israel can survive this.

No, the Roadmap calls for dismantling terrorist groups. The Palestinians called for a "cease-fire" in order to protect terrorist groups.

You keep saying Israel did not give the "cease-fire" a chance, but the Roadmap that both sides committed to does not call for a "cease-fire."

Your belief that if only Israel stopped defending itself groups that have been committed from the beginning to destroying Israel would suddenly become peaceful and tolerant is incredibly naive.

Your belief that groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are really just waiting for signs of Israeli sincerity to stop mass murdering Jews is even more naive.

The test will be in two areas:

1) in Palestinian controlled areas, PA must demonstrate its constant pursue of terrorists in forms of arrests, demolishing of bomb workshops, etc. Furthermore, PA must stop incitement in the media, and prove its functioning as rational diplomatic leadership.

The Palestinian Authority is run by Yaser Arafat, the Father of Modern Terrorism. If the PA did any of these things, it would do so exactly as it did during Oslo--merely as a charade.

2) in Israeli controlled areas, the ordinary Palestinian people must demonstrate that when given hope, they abandon support for the terrorists. They must openly show opposition to extremists.

Why? According to you Israel should enter a "cease-fire" with the terrorists. How can Israel turn around and demand Palestinians oppose the terrorists if the terrorists are observing the "cease-fire"?

The foolishness of this position is that even you seem to vaguely understand that the terrorist groups have to be dismantled--which means their leaders killed or captured, their ranks disarmed, and their meetings and recruiting banned.

It is expected that terror groups will try their utmost to shake the test period by initiating terror attacks. Strong defense measures must be applied to counter that, but never-the-less, some attacks will succeed. Israelis and Palestinians have to understand that these are the "swan song" of terrorism, they must show restraint and not succumb to provocation.

You live in a fairy tale world. The only way these attacks will end is if the terrorist groups are crushed.

I believe that had the Palestinians formed a genuinely new government independent of Arafat, had that government undertaken a serious effort to root out terrorism, that Israel would have understood one or two terrorist attacks might occur despite the PA's best efforts.

But you swallow hook, line, and sinker PA lies. You conveniently forget that they announced right from the beginning that they had no intention of taking on the terrorist groups. The fact that Israel wa also fighting the terrorists did not make it impossible for the PA to fight the terrorists. In fact, it would have made it easier had they been interested.

If the test seems to be going in the right direction, trust building steps may commence, such as limited release of prisoners, hand over of control of more cities, etc.

That is precisely what the Roadmap was all about. You simply refuse to admit the Palestinians flunked the test.

If the test fails, if PA does not do its job and the people do not abandon their support for terrorism. then I would go for Communication's proposal of fencing the WB and GS, taking a strong defensive stance and let them rot in their hatred.

I suspect you would simply invent more fairy tales, instead. Because the worst scenario has already occurred.

What you don't understand, Sharonbn, is that nothing Israel does could possibly justify mass murder attacks targeting innocent women, children, and elderly.

The fact is that the Palestinian people support such attacks.

Decent people would never embrace such blatantly racist attitudes. You are suggesting, in essence, that the Palestinians support mass murder out of frustration with Israel's policies. But decent humans would never conclude that if someone else (allegedly) is doing wrong, they are justified in killing innocent people.

Really, the reason the terrorists keep slaughtering Israelis is because of left wing forces that invent endless excuses for not fighting them.

[Mediocrates]

What I see is a Viet Nam syndrome but not in the way you might think. If any operation has to push the 'go' call up the chain for approval then things go horribly wrong. This is what ended up happening in VN; every target had to be individually approved by military/civilian command on a day by day basis, typically for reasons that did not involve military logistics.

So there are some parallels. If there are some targets that are off limits and some that are not, then fine. Set all of that out ahead of time and create an operational doctrine that spells it out. If terrorists strike from their hidey holes and then creep back to protected areas under PA 'control' then so be it. Leave that job up to the PA to deal with; either they will or they won't but no one can really control that anyway so the IDF is rather powerless if it moves into those areas anyway. For all the areas not under PA 'control' the IDF should be free to prosecute however they need to S.O.P. The Israelis can always control the pieces on the board anyway by deciding which areas to put under PA control and which to not.

Otherwise what will happen is this big drunk monkey rodeo where army units have to stop dead and get approval before executing on anything or going anywhere. I think it's also operationally appropriate to turn over some internal checkpoints in the WB over to the PA as well. Again this can be targeted for minimum risk and maximum political and media effect. For example a checkpoint between two PA controlled areas can be phased over to PA control. The key point though is that the IDF needs to have an exit plan instead of pinpoint responses. The fact that the last mega attack was in Jerusalem from Jerusalem belies the fantasy that tanks in the crossroads somewhere else can accomplish much. What they can do is keep a lid on terrorists right there, right where they are. That way their resources can and should be deployed best where it makes the most sense to with far less political risk.

[L@mplighterM]

Baby Killers From The West Bank
By Diana West
Townhall.com | August 25, 2003


Eleven-month-old Shmuel Zargari was buried in Israel this week with only his 14-year-old brother in attendance from his immediate family. His parents and three other siblings missed the funeral, having been grievously wounded by Shmuel's murderer, a 29-year-old Muslim cleric named Raed Abdel-Hamid Mesk, who believed Allah would invite him to paradise for self-detonating a Jerusalem bus packed with the Zargaris and other young families.

Mesk's ultimate destination is debatable, but the number of people he murdered on Tuesday is not. Twenty Jews died in the wreckage, among them five Americans; scores more, including some 40 children, face recovery from injuries exacerbated by metal shards packed among the explosives. No further suffering will pain Shmuel Zargari, a murder victim before his first birthday, but the desolation of his funeral accentuates the trauma of the crime. No bright side here; no silver lining and no light at the end of the tunnel -- unless you are the killer-cleric's widow. "I thank God that my husband has become a martyr," said pregnant Arij Mesk, who is also the mother of the couple's two- and three-year-old children. "God gave Raed something he always dreamed of. All his life he dreamed of being a martyr."

We may expect celebrations of such murderers in the Arab world -- Reuters reported on one in Lebanon this week in which hundreds of Palestinian men took to the streets to celebrate the bus attack -- but that doesn't happen here, right? Following the bus bombing, however, SoundVision.com, an avowedly Muslim Web site originating in Bridgeview, Ill., some presumably young and presumably North American Muslims mainly blogged approval of, and even sadistic delight in, the Jerusalem carnage.

Most chilling was the theological justification for "martyrdom operations" that cropped up on the Web site. A blogger from Canada identified as "Egyptian Guy" (with a Hezbollah logo) quoted at length from a fatwa originating from an organization of Islamic scholars called the European Council for Fatwa and Research. "Martyrdom operations are not suicide and should not be deemed as unjustifiable means of endangering one's life," wrote the council's Sheik Faysal Mawlawi. Indeed, they "are a sacred duty carried out in form of self-defense." (Self-defense against 11-month-old bus passengers?) "Whoever is killed in such missions," concluded the sheik, "is a martyr, may Allah bless him with high esteem."

Not exactly what I would bless him with, but there's more. The Middle East Media Research Institute (www.memri.com) reports that the European Fatwa and Research Council hunkered down in Stockholm this summer to discuss "Jihad and Denying Its Connection to Terror." It all depends, it seems, on what the meaning of terror is. According to the council's Sheik Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, one of the leading figures in Sunni Islam, "martyrdom operations ... are not in any way included in the framework of prohibited terrorism, even if the victims include some civilians." ("Some" civilians.) The sheik listed six reasons, among them the following: "It has been determined by Islamic law that the blood and property of people of Dar Al-Harb (the Domain of Disbelief where the battle for the domination of Islam should be waged) is not protected." That means non-Muslims aren't "protected" in non-Muslim lands (and it's no bed of roses in Muslim lands) -- not even by, or rather, especially not by, the loftiest religious precepts of a significant swath of Islam.

This point reminds me of a passage in one of the greatly readable primers on Islamic jihad (the historical movement, not the terrorist group), "Jihad in the West," (Prometheus Books, 1998) by Paul Fregosi. Comparing Christian and Muslim war crimes in the 16th century, Fregosi writes, "Both sides murdered and tortured equally well. But," he adds, quoting historian Jack Beeching, "'the bloody deeds done by nominal Christians went contrary to the utterances of the founder of their religion. ... The Christians guilty of such deeds must have been aware at the backs of their minds that what they did was wrong.'" Fregosi notes: "The Muslims who carried out the same deeds, and worse, felt no guilt at all. On the contrary, they felt they were obeying the will of God. Surveying the Christian scene with an unblinking eye, Beeching adds, 'From this friction between doctrine and practice might come a change for the better.

Perhaps,' he adduced, 'this is the reason why the Christian West has never stagnated.'"

Perhaps. It is certainly true that as currently preached by many leading Islamic clerics around the world, no such friction between religious doctrine and murderous practice exists.

Killing Jews -- and by extension, Americans and other Westerners -- is doctrinally OK according to way too much of Islam. This is what must cease if ever there is to come a change for the better.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9524


I think that most people don’t know the mindset of Islam including myself. I do know that there are Muslims in the west that support the destruction of Israel and the west.

I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

All this talk about peace is so much nonsense because it’s simply not achievable, land or not. Give Muslims the moon and they’ll be back for the sun!!!

Bush had it right when he used the word Crusade because that’s exactly what’s needed to fight Islam a bloody Crusade. I’d prefer a few nuclear bombs dropped in Islamic countries because that’s less costly and quicker.

Not a liberate Iraq type of action that’s plain dumb, costly and downright dangerous. Israel has also lost its ability to fight Islamic terrorism for whatever reasons.

[danholo]

Maybe the PA and the terrorist gangs could agree on another hudna with each other so they could improve Qassam missiles even more so they'll reach Tel-Aviv. Now, magically, the Qassam missiles can almost reach Ashkelon. It was Allah who did it because Hamas was fully committed to the cease-fire.

[tandem]

Originally posted by danholo
Maybe the PA and the terrorist gangs could agree on another hudna with each other so they could improve Qassam missiles even more so they'll reach Tel-Aviv. Now, magically, the Qassam missiles can almost reach Ashkelon.
it never really posed a serious threat to ashkelon. in the latest incident it landed 6 kilometers away from the city, but nonetheless it was the deepest this so-called "missile" ever got into israel

i don't believe the palestinians are smart enough to develop rockets that can reach tel aviv. in order to reach tel aviv from gaza, there has to be some level of sophistication involved. with regards to the qassam "missile", the longer the range, the less accurate the rocket is. it's worth noting that the qassam doesn't have any kind of navigational components. but then again the qassam is neither a rocket or a missile. it's a cylinder packed with about 5 kilos of explosives and is propelled by a mixture of coconut oil and cattle manure (or so i read). it's an extremely inferior piece of hardware

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by tandem
but then again the qassam is neither a rocket or a missile. it's a cylinder packed with about 5 kilos of explosives and is propelled by a mixture of coconut oil and cattle manure (or so i read). it's an extremely inferior piece of hardware

I've been building amateur rockets for a long time. It matters little what you use for propellant. What matters is how much pressure you can develop with what you use; it's called ISP. Over the course of years, I've used everything from perchlorates to sorbital. As a giggle, I've lifted a 120 pound rocket several miles, straight up, with liquid nitrous oxide and gallo salami "grains", in a hybrid engine. However, I must say, I've never heard of using coconut oil and cow pies.... Do you have any other information on this? I'd like to see the burn rates and thrust curves. It could cut my fuel costs, if it's true.... :D

[L@mplighterM]

I could make a rocket propellant from cow manure and cooconuts but it wouldn’t be my first choice.

[Johnny Yuma]

Originally posted by sharonbn

If the test fails, if PA does not do its job and the people do not abandon their support for terrorism. then I would go for Communication's proposal of fencing the WB and GS, taking a strong defensive stance and let them rot in their hatred.



The impetus for the palestinian aggression is the complete dislocation of the Israelis from what they believe is Palestine. That translates to "all the land". So I still think your argument is flawed; because you are focusing on a false cause. You honestly believe they want to live side-by-side with the Israelis in peace.

There are a lot of women in the United States that are abused by their husbands. Some stay with them; others, sometimes, get divorced, if they survive the abuse. For those that stay, almost all of them, when asked why, say, "Because I thought things would get better.", or, "He's not really a bad guy. He want's to do the right thing. One day, he'll change."

Oftentimes, these very women that have survived abusive relationships end up right back in another abusive relationship. My mother survived just such an abusive relationship. She had the sense not to ever get back into another, because she developed a keen sense of the warning signs.

My point is that this is the way I see many in Israel: They keep going through this cycle of abuse, over and over again, saying, "One day, the palestinians will tire of the violence. They are basically good. All we have to do is show them the way to behave.", yet the abuse continues. Many just want to give them just one more chance...

[Lowell]

Couldn't agree more with JY. And remember, sharon, the 'pals' want you out of Israel, too. They find you useful, for now.

[L@mplighterM]

For the Sake of Jerusalem
by Shoshana Rubin
Aug 25, '03 / 27 Av 5763


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"For the sake of Zion, I will not be still. For the sake of Jerusalem, I will not hold my peace." So saith the Original Testament.

Our land is flooded with our tears. Our Star of David flag is in tatters. Please G-d, hear me....

My people have gone adrift; we forgot why Thou placed us here, in the middle of such human wrath. We wonder aloud, is this not Egypt again? My people have forgotten why Thou called us here, among the raging, vile, perverted, baby-killing evildoers.

Thy people do not hear the L-rd. His middle name is Revenge - this is what wakes our G-d, this is when we do see Him, do hear Him. We need to awaken, we need to seek Revenge.

"But we do retaliate," I hear you say. But there is a difference between retaliate, which is tit-for-tat in military terms, but not the way of Hashem.

Indeed, where revenge is necessary, it is a great thing. It is a great mitzvah to take the revenge of the righteous and humble from the evildoer. Whoever forgoes or rejects such an opportunity is cruel, and he denies belief in G-d. "The righteous man shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance. He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Men shall say, 'Verily there is a reward for the righteous. Verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth.'" Revenge brings G-d back to life.

"Nay, but for Your sake are we killed all the day. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Awake! Why do You sleep, O L-rd? Arouse Yourself, cast us not off forever. Wherefore do You hide Your face...?" So saith King David in the Original Testament (Ps. 44:23-25). This is the secret of the greatness and holiness of revenge. It explains why it is a mitzvah and why the righteous are joyous when they see it carried out. When injustice is done on earth, when the kingdom of evil takes control and stifles the righteous and the innocent, it is only natural for a person to ask G-d, "Where are You?"

Thus, when G-d "awakens... like a mighty man recovering from wine," and smites His enemies, when He takes the revenge of His people and of Himself, which are one, He thereby sanctifies His name, proving to the world that Israel indeed has a G-d and that He lives and endures. The victory of injustice and of wickedness is ostensible proof of G-d's absence from the world, and there is no greater shame of G-d's name. By contrast, G-d's victory and revenge over His enemies, the evildoers, prove to the world that "verily there is a G-d Who judges on earth." So saith King David (Ps. 58:12).

We must look at this hate on a very personal level. How does one human plot and plan to get on a bus in Jerusalem, with the sole intention of murdering as many Jewish children and mothers and fathers as possible, and to commit suicide? How does one do that? Only one way - he believes we are not humans. Exactly as Hitler and his gangs believed. As easily as choosing which can of bug spray to kill spiders.

I have a few questions for our leaders. Why were these PLO Nazis able to have a successful parade? This was not a funeral, by any stretch of the imagination. This was not a funeral, but a victory parade, complete with masks and banners and flags and weapons-shooting and celebrating our deaths. Yes, celebrating the horrible, burning deaths of our little children, yes - of our people. Why was this vile, perverted, evil parade not bombed? Why do we allow them to celebrate our deaths, to have a victory parade? Let their next funeral be a massive, collective funeral, which will be their very last funeral in Israel.

Have we become so impotent that we need President Bush's approval to fill those underground tunnels [between Gaza and Egypt-ed.] with cement immediately? Do we also need President Mubarak's approval to avoid the utterly predictable, negligent, certainty of more death to our people, Israel?

Why did we endure another "roadmap?" Is anyone still naive enough to believe in the hudna? Are we not guilty for being deceived again and again by the fraudulent, conniving, insulting treaties of hate and humiliation?

We must stop blaming the local and foreign media for our problems. They see our lack of revenge. This they may not articulate well, they may not even know it, but the enemy Arabs know it. They know it too well, and that is our weakness.

My people Israel, there is only one solution, and thank G-d there is still one. We must expel or kill enemy Arabs. And anything else, by any other name, is even a greater deception, fraud and chilul Hashem.


http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=2662

[L@mplighterM]

Time to Reverse Course
by Martin Wasserman
Aug 25, '03 / 27 Av 5763


The latest bus bombing in Jerusalem clearly proves (as if any more proof were needed) that making peace with the Arabs is an impossibility. There is no solution to this conflict that will be satisfactory to both sides. Therefore, the time has come for Israel to execute a complete reversal of policy.

Israel's goal must not be peace, but victory, because without victory there can never be peace. The Palestinians and their supporters seek a war of annihilation against us. We must deal with them as they deal with us. We must stop trying to differentiate between good and bad Palestinians, just as they don't make that distinction among Jews. We must recognize that this is a war between two peoples, not a war between one people and a small group of unrepresentative extremists from another people.

We must stop saying, after every terrorist atrocity, that the Arabs have to decide whether they want to live in peace with us or not. They clearly made that decision a long time ago, and the answer was "no."

We must stop saying, after every attack, that the PA must crack down on terror, or else we'll do it ourselves. The PA clearly has no intention of cracking down on terror, so why should we hesitate any longer?

We must stop saying, after each new bombing, that we'll give the PA just "one more chance" to prove its good intentions. All negotiations with the Palestinians must end. Against this type of enemy, diplomacy can achieve nothing, and can only be counterproductive. Trying to find moderate Arab leaders such as Abu Mazen to replace extremist ones such as Yasser Arafat is pure futility. All of the Arab leaders seek Israel's demise. And in a society based on violence, anger and lust for blood, the most brutal elements will always rise to the top.

We must take full possession of the entire Land of Israel, obliterate the Palestinian leadership and expel the Palestinian Arabs from the land. We must abandon the foolish notion that we don't need to do this, because the international community will somehow solve our problems or fight our battles for us.

In advocating the Jewish takeover of all the Land of Israel, and the expulsion of the Arab population, I am of course aware that victory and defeat are determined by God, and not by our own force and skill. Israel will not be able to subdue its enemies and live in peace unless it gets help from above. Therefore, we must focus our attention on making ourselves worthy of such help. We must take a hard look at ourselves and at Jewish society, and begin to correct those flaws that keep God apart from us. We must rise above all base instincts, and acknowledge that we are here to serve the Creator on His terms, no more and no less. When we do this, all of our efforts will be successful, and we'll have no need to fear any enemies.

We must not allow ourselves to be seduced by pleasant-sounding belief systems such as universal humanism, which is based on the falsehood that all people are basically good, and that all problems can therefore be resolved peacefully. Good and evil are not inherent qualities, but choices that people make. And many people choose evil over good, because they think it will bring them greater benefits. The Arabs hate us because they have chosen to hate us. They're committed to their choice, and nothing we can do can change it. All we can do, with God's help, is to drive them out before they can carry out their murderous plans.

Using religious concepts as a basis for policy raises a difficult question. It is a basic tenet of Judaism that God wants us to possess the Land of Israel, and that He will help us to do so. But Islamists claim that God has rejected the Jews, and wants Muslims to destroy them. Both sides claim that God supports their cause. How can the average person know which side, if either, is telling the truth?

Thousands of years ago, Israel's prophets predicted not only the exile, but also the return. The fact that Israel exists today after all our tribulations is proof that God has not abandoned us. Also, we have not allowed ourselves to become consumed by hatred for the enemy. Even though they're forcing us to annihilate them, we continue to recognize them as human beings. This ability to see God's handiwork in every creature, and realize that each person, no matter what they do, is playing a role in the Master Plan, is a positive spiritual trait that evokes God's mercy and opens the gate to help from above.

As for the Islamist claim that God wants them to kill the Jews, it is true that those who serve God may sometimes be called on to wage war. But the servants of God do not make hatred the centerpiece of their lives. They don't allow their souls to become consumed by rage. They don't revel in slaughter, or derive pleasure from bloodshed. They don't slander their enemies with a constant stream of incendiary falsehoods, or teach those falsehoods to their children. They recognize and respect the fact that their enemies are human beings, regardless of their differences.

Whether they realize it or not, the Islamists are serving the Devil, not the Lord. They use religion as a rationalization and a mask for their true objectives, which include domination of others by force, eradication of all opponents, and also murder and bloodshed for their own sake. Suicide bombers who target innocent women and children because their teachers told them that this would earn them a place in Heaven will be extremely disappointed when they open their eyes on the other side.

http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=2663

[L@mplighterM]

All the Middle East’s a Stage
by Steven Plaut
Aug 25, '03 / 27 Av 5763



Shakespeare said that “all the world’s a stage”, but in fact it is mainly the Middle East that is a stage. It is a performance theater in which everyone is pretending and posturing and acting out parts in skits, prancing across the stage in costume and ballet tutu.

Abu Abbas pretends he is really concerned about terrorists blowing up Jewish children and is horrified by that, and then he pretends that he is doing all he can to arrest the Hamas terrorists, except Arafat is not letting him, or his militia is not large enough. And so, the whole world needs to strengthen him and help him build up his power base. Yasser Arafat pretends he does not control the Tanzim and al-Aqsa Brigade Nazis and terrorhoids carrying about the atrocities; and the whole world pretends they do not know he directly controls and commands them.

The Western media pretends that they think Israelis are mean and brutal, and that it is motivated by something other than hatred of Jews.

Meanwhile, Ariel Sharon pretends that he is acting to defend Israeli children and Israeli lives. He skirts across the stage in his tutu, on his tiptoes, pretending he is acting with military force against the savages. He conducts empty and meaningless symbolic actions, but refuses to choose military victory as a strategy. His government pretends it is conducting negotiations and dialogue with the PLO that are something other than empty stage theatrics.

The Israeli army pretends it is serious about battling the terrorists. The Israeli government pretends that it really thinks the Palestinian Authority will “crack down” on the terrorists.

The United States government and politicians pretend they are upset when the terrorists blow up Jewish children or that it thinks Israeli security is a matter of interest or importance. The White House and the State Department pretend that they really believe that creating a Palestinian state will reduce the barbarism of Arabs and result in peace, or that such a state will be used by the Arabs for something other than mass murder and genocide.

The Eurotrash pretend that the Palestinian Authority has been reformed.

The Israeli Labor Party pretends that it was not responsible for turning Israel into the Valley of the Shadow of Death. The American Jewish establishment pretends that it is interested in things other than promoting political liberalism.

The Israeli school system pretends it is educating children. So does the Israeli university system, although many professors are full-time propagandists for the PLO.

The Israeli army leadership pretends it knows what it is doing. The Israeli intelligence community pretends it discerns new moderation in the Palestinian leadership.

Israeli politicians pretend that Abu Mazen is himself not a Nazi and terrorist. The United States pretends that Middle East ceasefires obligate the Arabs as well, and pretend that they are unaware that the Palestinians violate them every hour.

And everyone pretends there is a Palestinian “people”.

The Israeli Left pretends that it seeks peace, while in reality it seeks a second Holocaust of Jews. Tikkun magazine pretends that Michael Lerner is a Rabbi. (Lerner just sent out one of his long-winded screeds, entitled “When Will Israel Stop Endangering Jewish Lives?”, explaining that Israel is responsible for all of the Arab violations of the hudna.) The Western campus Left pretends it is acting under motives other than anti-Jewish bigotry and anti-Americanism.

The Israeli political establishment pretends that there is a serious distinction between the Likud and Meretz.

Haaretz pretends it is a newspaper.

Israeli politicians pretend they still believe that demonstrations of Israeli goodwill and weakness and niceness will induce Arab niceness. They pretend there is something at the end of the “Road Map” other than a swastika.

And then, in a few more days, after all the bus children are in their graves, they will once again pretend that some new “ceasefire” is in earnest this time and will, at long last, produce reduced violence.

http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=2664

[sharonbn]

First of all, I want to say I don't think flooding the thread with articles is very productive. Someone here in the forum wrote that its beter to express your opinions in your own words than use 1,500-word article that no one will read.

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
The Israeli Left pretends that it seeks peace, while in reality it seeks a second Holocaust of Jews

This whole article is nothing more than hateful incetement against a legitimate political faction in the Israeli public. You may say we're naive and unrealistic but we don't have a hidden agenda. Israeli left is an avid Zionist group totally devoted to the Israeli cause.
I trully regret that you chose to publish such manipulative shameless provocation.

If I were you I wouldn't bath in the Israeli right justification. Just remember that it is people from the Israeli right that form terror groups and use terror means against their own people (i.e. political assasinations.)
Do you know why Netanyahu and Sharon wore bullet-proof vests under orders from the Sahabc? hint: they didn't fear an action from the Israeli left.

Originally posted by L@mplighterM

The Western campus Left pretends it is acting under motives other than anti-Jewish bigotry and anti-Americanism

Maybe we need to bring back McCarthy to purify American society from "anti-Americanism"

[Communication]

Sharon,

The other day when I heard that Israel killed four members of Hamas' military wing, one of them a senior commander, my first reaction was one of joy. ALthough I have never been a pacifist, I never had that kind of reaction before. Jews don't celebrate the deaths of our enemies. It's damaging to the soul. But I did. I still wouldn't celebrate the deaths of innocent Palestinians, especially children, but I can see how you get to a certain point where you just lose all empathy for the other side. And at that point, you understand your enemies a little bit better because you share their hopelessness.

I also read an article where someone from the PA was quoted as saying that Abbas is starting to become more withdrawn and experiencing his own feelings of hopelessness now that he is being sidelined by Arafat again. And that made me think that maybe Abbas is a good man who is in fact committed to peace. The problem is, he's weak because he doesn't have the support of the Palestinian people. The world legitimized the PLO because they seemed the most willing to deal with Israel. That, of course, is not true of every member of the PLO or PA, but we look for those members who are more moderate in their ideology. Which is why Abbas was chosen.

But there is more to selecting peace partners than people with a moderate stance towards Israel. For too many years, the PA was corrupt, they lined their own pockets rather than focusing on building a better future for the Palestinian people. And as is generally the case throughout the Arab world, the people distrust the ARab governments because they see them as tools of western imperial powers and generally indifferent to their suffering because of their own corruption. I was talking the other day with an Egyptian Muslim who said that if the people could, they would choose the Muslim Brotherhood over Mubarak. The same is true for the Palestinian people. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are well funded by Islamic governments and unlike the PA, they have been the ones feeding, clothing and educating the people in the occupied territories. That's why when one of them is killed, you see 50,000+ people pour into the streets. So why, especially given where Oslo lead them, would the people back the PA?

That's why I was in favor of Israel offering concessions to increase Abbas' standing in the community, although I didn't like it and I saw the trap from the beginning. The terror groups know full well that they have earned the good faith of the people, which is why they were so easily able to sabatoge the PA by making demands that Israel couldn't fulfill, like the release of every prisoner. Now takeo claims that Hamas et. al. are willing to negotiate with Israel and that they only want the 67 territories. But that's a lie. They fully acknowledge that they have never changed their position in regards to Israel. Plus, there are about a half dozen different gangs so it only takes one group not to sign on for the problems to continue.

I am for dismantling the various groups right now. The Palestinians have too many options and they can't see that the groups that have been the most loyal to them are not the same ones that can get them an independent country at this time. The US has stated that a Palestinian country is a reality with the creation of provisional borders by 2004. If what they want is an independent state, then it is right there for their taking. Once they get their own state and things are calm, Hamas can be replaced by outside investment and reparations. There are so many people who sympathize with the Palestinians that they could potentially have a better future than the rest of their Arab breathern. But they can't see that now.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by sharonbn



If I were you I wouldn't bath in the Israeli right justification. Just remember that it is people from the Israeli right that form terror groups and use terror means against their own people (i.e. political assasinations.)


Maybe we need to bring back McCarthy to purify American society from "anti-Americanism"

Sharon,

You must be an Islamic because any Jew would not take your position unless you had a death wish for your nation.
Islamics only want to kill or convert all Kafirs, including Jews. The won't even stop killing Jews long enough to get back the land they lost when they made a massive attack to destory Israel but failed.

Peace will only come when Islamics are tamed. <deleted by moderator for foul language>

The sad fact is that Israel must live by the sword or die by the sword.

old reb

[sharonbn]

Communication,

Once again, I find myself in agreement with most of what you say.

First of all, I would like to state that whenever Israel is operating against terrorists, I feel no grief or mercy. I also don't experience joy. I can say I feel that what was done was necessary and is justified and I can say it gives me satisfaction to know Israel is fighting back. However, sometimes I question in my mind the long term usefulness of such actions.

For instance, Israeli operations during the Hudnah are justified and even perhaps necessary, but I believe were not helpful in the long term, in a sense that they gave the terror groups a pretext to launch their attacks. (Notice I don't say that terror attacks are justified) I believe Israeli gov't and IDF didn't believe in the ceasefire from the beginning, and thus didn't give it a real chance.

I also believe we all don't give Abbas a real chance to prove he's a worthy partner for negotiations. Abbas had immense difficulties from the moment he took the position of PM. First and foremost - Arafat. Today I consider Arafat a greater threat to Israel than the terror groups. Because dealing with the terror groups is a matter of deploying the security forces and giving them the green light to arrest the group members. PA has the intelligence, the man power, everything they need - except an authority strong and stable enough to give the order. and what stops Abbas from giving the order is Arafat, with his constant mingling and interfering with the operation of the gov't, as well as he's control over large part of the security forces.
Arafat MUST be stripped from all authority and control before Abbas can operate.
Arafat is so strong (he's been the only leader of the Pals for 40 years!) that no one from within can challenge and force him to resign

That's why I believe Israel, the US, Europe - whoever - need to exert all the power they have to force Arafat to resign from office. Once that is achieved and Abbas has full control over all security forces and can appoint his own men in charge - then he will be able to operate againt the terror groups. If he will have the will power, the courage and integrity to do so - I don't know. I trully hope so.

[Lowell]

Originally posted by sharonbn
First of all, I want to say I don't think flooding the thread with articles is very productive. Someone here in the forum wrote that its beter to express your opinions in your own words than use 1,500-word article that no one will read.


I read the articles, and I find them very enlightening and thought provoking. Is it OK to express opinions in 1,500+ words?

[danholo]

BTW,

Communication wrote an exeptionally good post just now. Good work!

[danholo]

Sharonbn, good post.

So why, instead of deporting him, doesn't Israel detain Arafat and lock him up? Because of possible international outcry?

Detaining him and severing his contacts with others is the only way to marginalize this guy.

Another problem is within Israel. The people have no idea who the real enemy is. You say it's Arafat, some say it's the terror groups and some say it's both or just the usual "the Arabs want to drive us into the sea". What do you think?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by sharonbn
First of all, I want to say I don't think flooding the thread with articles is very productive. Someone here in the forum wrote that its beter to express your opinions in your own words than use 1,500-word article that no one will read.



This whole article is nothing more than hateful incetement against a legitimate political faction in the Israeli public. You may say we're naive and unrealistic but we don't have a hidden agenda. Israeli left is an avid Zionist group totally devoted to the Israeli cause.
I trully regret that you chose to publish such manipulative shameless provocation.

If I were you I wouldn't bath in the Israeli right justification. Just remember that it is people from the Israeli right that form terror groups and use terror means against their own people (i.e. political assasinations.)
Do you know why Netanyahu and Sharon wore bullet-proof vests under orders from the Sahabc? hint: they didn't fear an action from the Israeli left.



Maybe we need to bring back McCarthy to purify American society from "anti-Americanism"

I’m not as severe in my opinion when it comes to peaceniks although I do believe that they are of no use at a time of war or at any other time. Make no bones about it Israel has fought for its survival since 1948 and I’m certain that if there had been only flower children there it would have disappeared along with its little civilization long ago. I know full well that there are individuals in Israel that have Arab friends and they are entitled to that, once they cross the line and help the Arabs to achieve their goal, they must be painted with the same brush. Based on what I’ve seen you write, I don’t believe that you have crossed that line.

I don’t know whether you love your country or not, but you should count yourself lucky that there were people willing to defend it since it’s incorporation.

Don’t bother to waste your time, for my sake, telling me about the failed diplomacy and how Israel could have avoided every conflict since 1948.

[danholo]

I'm pretty sure that sharonbn will make no hesitation and be there rifle in hand against any enemy who attempts the destruction of Israel with all the rest of us - that is if any of you will volunteer to protect Israel when and if the time comes.

History has taught us that only when Jews don't get along with each other they will be destroyed by an external threat. So stop it and make up! In all seriousness you people should know that already.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by danholo
So why, instead of deporting him, doesn't Israel detain Arafat and lock him up? Because of possible international outcry?

I think its because of international outcry and also because Pals may see this as an Israeli attempt to intervene in their internal politics.
I wish Israel could deport/detain/arrest Arafat tomorrow. I fear the repecautions. We all know (I hope) that a significant part of the battle is fought in the diplomatic and propoganda arenas.

Originally posted by danholo
Another problem is within Israel. The people have no idea who the real enemy is. You say it's Arafat, some say it's the terror groups and some say it's both or just the usual "the Arabs want to drive us into the sea". What do you think?
I don't claim to hold the absolute truth or have the correct analysis of the situation. I was a true believer of the Oslo peace process and I now see the proces was doomed from the start.
My conclusion about Arafat relies upon an estimation that Abbas does want to stop terror groups or at least force them into a ceasefire. I could be wrong here. Like I've said: a) we didn't give the guy any "grace" period to prove himself and b) in the long term we really don't have any alternative (I rule out the military option for the long term)

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by danholo

So why, instead of deporting him, doesn't Israel detain Arafat and lock him up? Because of possible international outcry?

Detaining him and severing his contacts with others is the only way to marginalize this guy.

Another problem is within Israel. The people have no idea who the real enemy is. You say it's Arafat, some say it's the terror groups and some say it's both or just the usual "the Arabs want to drive us into the sea". What do you think?


It's a waste of time to attempt to divine what their leaders removal may represent or not under this or that circumstances. They are better at bending public impressions around it than you are. There is a such a thing as running your own playbook.

It is irrelevant worrying about what 'the street' wants. You can either assume everyone is the enemy and become a police state or you can absorb whatever losses you can. Does that sound cold? Yeah it does. So?

Marginalizing Arafat hasn't worked because they haven't done it yet. He still holds most of the power. So putting him in quasi house arrest in Ramallah is a complete waste of time unless they can isolate him from his power. There are several ways to do that:

1 - separate him from his money
2 - separate him from his next tier lieutenants
3 - set the next tier commanders against each other
4 - empty the Israeli prisons of the PA detainees and drop them literally by bus at his Ramallah headquarters with no advance notice preferably in the middle of the night.
5 - bombard his mother in law, the PA Minister of Propaganda with a ceaseless 24 hr per day barrage of loud public protests

[Lowell]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I think its because of international outcry and also because Pals may see this as an Israeli attempt to intervene in their internal politics.
I wish Israel could deport/detain/arrest Arafat tomorrow. I fear the repecautions. We all know (I hope) that a significant part of the battle is fought in the diplomatic and propoganda arenas.


I don't claim to hold the absolute truth or have the correct analysis of the situation. I was a true believer of the Oslo peace process and I now see the proces was doomed from the start.
My conclusion about Arafat relies upon an estimation that Abbas does want to stop terror groups or at least force them into a ceasefire. I could be wrong here. Like I've said: a) we didn't give the guy any "grace" period to prove himself and b) in the long term we really don't have any alternative (I rule out the military option for the long term)

But, sharon, isn't the 'international outcry', which is largely orchestrated by the 'Palestinians' and their sympathizers itself an interference in Israeli affairs? Israel could arrest Arafat tomorrow on charges of, for starts, murdering seven Israeli athletes in 1972 I really believe the repercussions, if any, of having Arafat in a jail cell awaiting trial are less than having him relatively free in Ramallah posing as a symbol of the "Palestinian' cause. A few pictures of Arafat in a jail uniform would do wonders to make him a joke on the Arab 'street'. As for Abbas, he had a grace period- months in fact, but about all he has done is publicly quarrel with Arafat. How about if the US removes the Arab regimes that are behind the terrorism, and Israel then removes Hamas, Jihad, etc.?

[Mediocrates]

The Israelis need to take a page out of the Rudy Giuliani playbook. Lot's of people detested him for everything he did. You know what? Who cares. He just executed on his own plan and anyone who didn't like that could go to hell.

We need to call the Wall the sticking place for Palestinian and world opinion and invite them all to bang their useless heads against it until their brains leak out.

I'd like to see every single rock ever thrown at an Israeli embedded in the wall as a monument. Call it

The Monument of Your Failed Intentions.

And write on it in big red letters

You're Not The First, You're Not Even Relevant

[Lowell]

Yoo hoo, sharon... I made a comment, in fact more than one! What kind of moderator ignores reasonable, polite comments??

[old-reb]

Originally posted by danholo
I'm pretty sure that sharonbn will make no hesitation and be there rifle in hand against any enemy who attempts the destruction of Israel with all the rest of us - that is if any of you will volunteer to protect Israel when and if the time comes.

History has taught us that only when Jews don't get along with each other they will be destroyed by an external threat. So stop it and make up! In all seriousness you people should know that already.

Debate is where everybody puts their plan or belief on the table for critizem. All ideas are appreciated. However, I can't resist attacking ideas don't like.

The truth is that Islam teaches and demands hatred and death to Jews. The rest is just smoke and mirrors. The truth is just too horrible to believe so many believe "smoke and mirrors from Islamic propagandist" They must laugh themselves to sleep every night.

I am not one to fight in my old age but I would rather die fighting than submitting to racist, Islamic terorrist.

old reb

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by sharonbn

That's why I believe Israel, the US, Europe - whoever - need to exert all the power they have to force Arafat to resign from office. Once that is achieved and Abbas has full control over all security forces and can appoint his own men in charge - then he will be able to operate againt the terror groups. If he will have the will power, the courage and integrity to do so - I don't know. I trully hope so.


Projecting western norms on the Palestinians is delusional. The Father of Modern Terrorism is not going to "resign" under pressure from Israel, the U.S. or Europe. He will have to be removed by force.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
So putting him in quasi house arrest in Ramallah is a complete waste of time unless they can isolate him from his power. There are several ways to do that:

1 - separate him from his money
2 - separate him from his next tier lieutenants
3 - set the next tier commanders against each other
4 - empty the Israeli prisons of the PA detainees and drop them literally by bus at his Ramallah headquarters with no advance notice preferably in the middle of the night.
5 - bombard his mother in law, the PA Minister of Propaganda with a ceaseless 24 hr per day barrage of loud public protests

Solution: separate his head from the rest of his body.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Solution: separate his head from the rest of his body.

Sounds good to me but I would like to see him tortured a bit first. I could go for a snuff Arafat video; I’d wear it out in a week.

[Mediocrates]

I think the most effective thing you could do is render him politically and socially impotent. But really do it, not pretend do it. This is not like England that can effect a vote of no confidence or the US which can impeach. And you really don't want to martyr him or even attempt to arrest him. We don't need another 'Bobby Sands'. The best thing I think is to make him ridiculous, but again you have to REALLY do it.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I think the most effective thing you could do is render him politically and socially impotent. But really do it, not pretend do it. This is not like England that can effect a vote of no confidence or the US which can impeach. And you really don't want to martyr him or even attempt to arrest him. We don't need another 'Bobby Sands'. The best thing I think is to make him ridiculous, but again you have to REALLY do it.

The Father of Modern Terrorism has managed to escape with his life on several occasions. I would, instead, launch a campaign to show that Arafat is a life-long terrorist. Then I would liquidate him.

I see no reason to worry whether a terrorist will become a "martyr" among terrorist supporters and apologists.

Wasn't there also talk some time ago about the U.S. issuing an arrest warrant for Arafat? Perhaps this should be revived.

The best argument I have heard for not liquidating him is that he could be replaced by a Palestinian terrorist who speaks perfect Oxford English, and it is better to have Arafat as the Palestinians' chief spokesman. I don't buy that either... he is the Father of Modern Terrorism and I don't see how a more charasmatic replacement excuses this, particularly during a World War Against Islamism.