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Revkha
08-24-2003, 04:59 PM
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1061697085504

Aug. 25, 2003
That old-fashioned Jew-hatred by Alan M. Dershowitz

When does anti-Zionism cross the line into anti-Semitism? That is a question roiling college and university campuses across the world.

Harvard's President Lawrence Summers helped to stimulate constructive debate about this issue when he urged students and professors to challenge "vigorously" Israeli policies with which they disagree, but he condemned as "anti-Semitic in their effect if not their intent" calls to single out only Israel for such extreme sanctions as divestment and boycott.

New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman joined this debate by writing that "Criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic, and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

I too have joined this debate in my new book The Case for Israel, in which I argue that "It is important to understand that although criticism of Israel is not by itself anti-Semitism, there are certain kinds of criticism of Israel that are clearly anti-Semitic, even if the word Jew is never mentioned.

"An obvious instance is Amiri Baraka claiming in his poem that Israel and Sharon knew about the attack on the World Trade Center before it happened and warned 4,000 Israelis to stay away. Can anyone doubt that this variation on the blood libel is anti-Semitic to the core?"

Now a new blood libel against the Jews has been issued by a cardinal of the Catholic church who, according to James Carrol, who writes about Catholic matters for The Boston Globe, is "one of a small number of likely candidates to succeed Pope John Paul II."

Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Meridiaga, who is the archbishop of Tegucigalpa, Honduras, has been telling anyone who is willing to listen that "the Jews" are to blame for the scandal surrounding the sexual misconduct of priests toward young parishioners!

The Jews? How did Cardinal Rodriguez ever come up with this ridiculous idea? Here is his "logic." He begins by asserting that the Vatican is anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian. It follows, therefore, that "the Jews" had to get even with the Catholic Church, while at the same time deflecting attention away from Israeli injustices against the Palestinians.

The Jews managed to do this by arranging for the media which they, of course, control to give disproportionate attention to the Vatican sex scandal. Listen to Rodriguez's own words:
"It certainly makes me think that in a moment in which all the attention of the mass media was focused on the Middle East, all the many injustices done against the Palestinian people, the print media and the TV in the United States became obsessed with sexual scandals that happened 40 years ago, 30 years ago.
"Why? I think it's also for these motives: What is the church that has received Arafat the most times and has most often confirmed the necessity of the creation of a Palestinian state? What is the church that does not accept that Jerusalem should be the indivisible capital of the State of Israel, but that it should be the capital of the three great monotheistic religions?"

Rodriguez then goes on to compare the Jewish-controlled media with "Hitler," because they are "protagonists of what I do not hesitate to define as a persecution against the Church."
When asked whether he wanted to reconsider his attack, Rodriguez replied: "I don't repent sometimes it is necessary to shake things up."

THE PRIME media culprit is The Boston Globe, which has won numerous journalistic awards for its exposure of the sex scandal and coverup. The Globe is owned by The New York Times, which is controlled by the Sulzberger family. Hence the Jewish conspiracy.

The problem with this cockamamie theory is that the Jewish community of Boston was very close to, and admiring of, Cardinal Bernard Law, who presided over the archdiocese during the scandal. Law had built bridges between the Catholic and Jewish communities of Boston, and when the scandal was exposed by the very un-Jewish Boston Globe the Jewish community remained largely supportive of Law.

None of the leading media critics, lawyers or politicians who railed against the church was Jewish. Most were Catholic. But that didn't matter to the bigoted cardinal, who along with other classic anti-Semites believes that if there is a problem "the Jews" must be to blame for it.

As James Carrol, himself a Catholic, has characterized Rodriguez's "crackpot" mindset: "When the church has a problem here is the oldest move of all blame the Jews." Nor is Rodriguez the only current cardinal afflicted with such bigotry.

Cardinal Joseph Glemp, the primate of Poland, has blamed the Jews for Polish communism, alcoholism and collaboration with Hitler. He also accused Jews of trying to kill nuns. Other high-ranking priests, especially in Central America and Poland, have leveled similar anti-Semitic accusations against the Jews and Israel.

These blood libels demonstrate that the Vatican still has a problem with anti-Semitism at the top levels of its hierarchy, even after Vatican II declared anti-Semitism to be "a sin." How can serial sinners like Cardinals Rodriguez and Glemp retain their statures as princes of the Church while continuing to preach blood libels against the Jews?

Would a cardinal who advocated gay marriage or abortion not be defrocked? Why not defrock those cardinals who themselves commit the sin of anti-Semitism? This age-old problem will not go away unless the Vatican takes action to enforce its parchment protest against anti-Semitism.

The writer's latest book is The Case for Israel.

abu afak
08-24-2003, 06:55 PM
Good article... but has -0- to do with the 'Roadmap' section you put it in.

"Tackling Anti-semitism" a clear first choice..
"Religion and Culture a distant # 2.

"Roadmap"-- off the chart

old-reb
08-26-2003, 08:51 AM
On jew hatred:

I was reading a Russian/American saying that he supported Israel because of all the Russians there but he didn't like Jews because they helt a disportinate amount of Russia's wealth.

I feel like the old teastament/Tora represents the Jews as a brutal people. It is a history that is off the map and no longer relevant but every time one reads of the old massacres, the Jews get a propaganda black eye, delivered by themselves.

old reb

Mediocrates
08-26-2003, 09:14 AM
Why brutal? It's part the history of victory, part the history of the Diaspora and part all sorts of other things. People want to read Torah context free and come to some conclusions abou the 'real' meaning. That is a mistake.

old-reb
08-26-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Mediocrates
Why brutal? It's part the history of victory, part the history of the Diaspora and part all sorts of other things. People want to read Torah context free and come to some conclusions abou the 'real' meaning. That is a mistake.

Ok, I must agree with that.

old reb

Communication
08-26-2003, 02:27 PM
Two points:


First: whoose perfect and how much can you learn from "perfect' people?


Second: look at the world today and tell me the torah is no longer relevent because it is too violent.

old-reb
08-26-2003, 06:54 PM
The Tora is the greatest book ever!!! I am forever greatful for having studied it for a little while.

It was just a harsh god. But then that is what I was taught.

old reb

Da Chuckstar
08-27-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by old-reb
On jew hatred:

I was reading a Russian/American saying that he supported Israel because of all the Russians there but he didn't like Jews because they helt a disportinate amount of Russia's wealth.

I feel like the old teastament/Tora represents the Jews as a brutal people. It is a history that is off the map and no longer relevant but every time one reads of the old massacres, the Jews get a propaganda black eye, delivered by themselves.

old reb

Hehe, the three richest Russians are all Jewish. :p

But anyway, does anyone know what happened to the Canaanites and the Philistines? Did they assimilate in with the Jewish people?

And one more thing, what happened between the time the Romans conquered Israel and the Muslims invaded and took over Israel? Did they take it from the Romans, or had the Romans already left leaving Israel ripe for the taking?

Mediocrates
08-27-2003, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by old-reb
The Tora is the greatest book ever!!! I am forever greatful for having studied it for a little while.

It was just a harsh god. But then that is what I was taught.

old reb


Yes that is one of the 13 attributes of God.

(1) The first Adonai means God is merciful before a person sins.
(2) The second Adonai is about God's mercy for those who have sinned. Repentance alone is insufficient without God's grace and mercy. Teshuvah requires confession, regret, and resolution never to repeat the act in the future. For sins between man and man rectification is required.
(3) Then comes EIL which is another name for God denoting power.
(4) Rachum is compassionate. God feels for people and helps when he can.
(5) Chanun is grace. God is gracious even to the undeserving.
(6) Erech Apaiim is slow to anger which implies patience and understanding, forbearance and compassion. He gives them time to reflect, improve and repent.
(7) Rav chesed is abundant in kindness, or loving kindness. All that God does or commands is for the good of the world in loving kindness, even when we don't understand the reasons of Chukim which we follow because any commandment from God is good. From beneficence flows mercy. When God says that he "I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy" (33:19) it means that he will have to make a judgment to determine who gets mercy. This brings in the virtue of Justice and Judaism is always balancing mercy with justice. You should not have one without the other. God also represents Truth as he says he is abundant in mercy and truth. One would not think of God telling lies although there have been situations when the truth was shaved a bit to spare feelings.
(8) Emet (truth) encompasses reliability and faithfulness. Chesed and Emet frequently go together in which case they express God's absolute and eternal dependability in dispensing his benefactions.
(9) Notzer chesed l'alophim. God's kindness is carried over for numerous generations. Nosei means forgiveness of 3 kinds of sins:
(10) Avon is iniquity, an intentional sin which God forgives if the sinner is repentant.
(11) Pesha is willful sin is one that is intended to anger God. It too will be forgiven with repentance.
(12) Chatoah is a sin done in error or carelessness or apathy.
(13) Nakeh cleanses. God cleanses the sinner of the sin with proper repentance and some form of restitution. Divine forbearance does not, however, mean that sinners can expect to escape the consequences of their misdeeds. God does not whitewash sin because that would remove the distinction between good and evil and it would encourage evildoers to act with impunity for there will be no retribution. Visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children is interpreted by Rashi as punishment if they follow the example of evil doings of their ancestors.

http://www.vbs.org/religious/libminyn/pesach_bot.htm

Which is taken from a Conservative Congregation.

old-reb
08-27-2003, 08:26 PM
The Jews take blame for something that happpened before there was a way of dating time.

The second slaughter is justified by the first one in Deuteronomy 20:16

Now if you were a Hague Judge or a federal judge or a Sate Judge or a Juror in Court and the Jews said they commited a slaughter and it was recorded to be read all over the world through all time, how would you judge them? Could you find them not guilty?

Now if you had to judge the Muslims after a slaughter that happend in history or just last week but they said they it never happpened, and if it did then the Jews did it too. Or, they often say it was done by an off branch of the military that they were not responsible for.
How would you judge the Muslims? Could you find them not guilty?

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Deu 20:13 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: Deu 20:14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee. Deu 20:15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities [which are] very far off from thee, which [are] not of the cities of these nations. Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth: Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: Deu 20:18 That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God. Deu 20:19 When thou shalt besiege a city a long time, in making war against it to take it, thou shalt not destroy the trees thereof by forcing an axe against them: for thou mayest eat of them, and thou shalt not cut them down (for the tree of the field [is] man's [life]) to employ [them] in the siege: Deu 20:20 Only the trees which thou knowest that they [be] not trees for meat, thou shalt destroy and cut them down; and thou shalt build bulwarks against the city that maketh war with thee, until it be subdued.

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Here Mohammand quotes the Tora as an excuse to slay the Jews
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One night the army of the Confederates melted away. At noon on the same day, Gabriel came to the Prophet telling him: "O Messenger of God. The Angels have not laid down their arms, and return from pursuing the foe. God... commandeth thee to go against the Qurayzah..."26

A thousand Muslims besieged the fortress of the Bani Qurayzah for 25 days when the Jews eventually opened their gates and threw themselves on Muhammad's mercy. They agreed to a chieftain of a Medinan tribe, Sa'd ibn Muadh, judging them for their treachery to the young Islamic state. The Mosaic law applied to the Jews and their punishment should have been total extermination: "thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" (Deuteronomy 20, 16). Allah was more merciful than Jehovah however (33:26) and Sa'd's adjudication was to slay the men and take the women and children into captivity. The Prophet was pleased and replied to Sa'd: "Thou hast judged with the judgement of God from above the seven heavens."

In the morning Muhammad ordered long, deep and narrow trenches to be dug in the market place. The seven hundred or so men from Bani Qurayzah were brought in small groups to kneel beside the trench. Then the younger and stronger believers cut off the Jews' heads each with a stroke of a sword. The last to die were beheaded by torchlight.

The women, children and property were divided amongst those who had taken part in the siege. The Bani Nadir ransomed many of their kin but Muhammad kept for himself, as concubine, a beautiful Jewess named Rayhanah.

Communication
08-28-2003, 07:47 AM
It's funny, I was never perplexed about the invasion of the Canaanite cities when I was a kid, I suppose because my understanding was that the ancient hebrews lived in a brutal time and they needed to isolate themselves from the surrounding tribes that worshiped multiple gods and engaged in practices forbidden to the Israelites. I didn't know anything about archeology or the time frame in which the hebrew nation was established.

The conquering of Canaan comes up much more today, it seems, because of the situation in Israel today with the Palestinians. I can't see any other reason, since the Jewish God is the same God as the Christian God, and thus, I would assume that Christians must also struggle with the OT text as we do. Where the NT seems to focus more on God's attribute of mercy rather than justice, such is also the focus in rabbinical Judaism throughout the Talmud.

Here is some of the historical background of the development of the hebrew nation. In it, you will find some information that may help to fill in some of the gaps in the biblical passage:

www.wsu.edu/~dee/TEXT/hebrew.rtf


It's very long, but a good read. It's historical, based on what little we have been able to gleam from archeological discovery. It might not help with any moral dilemmas that the passage poses for you, but it will help put the passage into context. Perhaps the meaning, in a religious sense, will become more clear in time.


Let me know what you think, and then maybe we can discuss modern Jewish and Christian perceptions of God's justice and mercy.

old-reb
08-28-2003, 08:14 AM
Hello Communication,

I have no problem with the historical facts but Mohammand used it as an excuse to kill Jews and I am sure Islamics and Nazis used it as an excuse to destory a military defensless but finiancial strong people in their midst. Today Jews are allowed to live in Israel only because of military strength. But then most countrys survive only as long as they have a strong military.

The USA had worse atrocitys towards Indians but we are not held accounable throughout time mabe because we are strong.

The Christains removed themselves from guilt by starting a new branch off Judism. It would be impossible to delete the offending history.

old reb

Communication
08-28-2003, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Communication,

I have no problem with the historical facts but Mohammand used it as an excuse to kill Jews and I am sure Islamics and Nazis used it as an excuse to destory a military defensless but finiancial strong people in their midst. Today Jews are allowed to live in Israel only because of military strength. But then most countrys survive only as long as they have a strong military.

The USA had worse atrocitys towards Indians but we are not held accounable throughout time mabe because we are strong.

The Christains removed themselves from guilt by starting a new branch off Judism. It would be impossible to delete the offending history.

old reb


You can't prevent people from distorting text for their own political agendas. Christians, Jews and Muslims are all equally guilty here. Many Christians marched off to foreign lands chanting, "Onward Christian soldier" enslaving and slaughtering the heathens, Muslims the same, and there are those Jews who even today, model themselves after the biblical Joshua. Did the Christians really removed themselves of guilt by starting a new branch of Judaism? Are those not still the true words of God?

old-reb
08-30-2003, 11:18 AM
I have been vacationing in Vancouver, Washington, the land of the liberals and this what I woke up to in "the Columbian" (liberal news paper).






http://www.ucomics.com/patoliphant/2003/08/26/

RichardP
08-30-2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by old-reb
I have been vacationing in Vancouver, Washington, the land of the liberals and this what I woke up to in "the Columbian" (liberal news paper).
http://www.ucomics.com/patoliphant/2003/08/26/

Washington is one beautiful state. Unfortunately it also polluted with liberals, left-wing tree huggers et al!

old-reb
08-30-2003, 03:02 PM
Hello Richard,


I would be a liberal too, if all I read was local biased liberal news. My English girlfriend just watches BBC and she is so biased that she is hopless. When I tell her the truth, she thinks I am just making things up. How can you argue with someone who has BBC as their god.

The power of the press is immense.

old reb

RichardP
08-30-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Richard,


I would be a liberal too, if all I read was local biased liberal news. My English girlfriend just watches BBC and she is so biased that she is hopless. When I tell her the truth, she thinks I am just making things up. How can you argue with someone who has BBC as their god.

The power of the press is immense.

old reb

So true, ol' reb... the power of the press cannot be exaggerated. The media are well aware of their influences on the majority of viewers/readers. Our BBC clone, the CBC is the same... I think their 'jingle' is, the news you can trust! My wife is English but agrees with me, but then she has been in the colonies for a few decades! BBC should stick to dramas and some documentaries.
Good Luck!!