Top Jerusalem officials receive up to NIS 40,000 per month

[Communication]

They should take some of their salaries and give it to the bus drivers.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1062305444707

[Communication]

Is anyone else hopping mad about this?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/336780.html


Soldier killed in Jenin wasn't wearing ceramic vest

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service



Israel Defense Forces soldier Sergeant Gabriel
Uziel was not wearing a ceramic bullet-proof vest
that could have saved his life Thursday, sector
brigade commander Colonel Dan Hefetz told Israel
Radio on Friday.

The bullet that killed the
soldier in an ambush shooting
in the West Bank city of Jenin
penetrated the regular vest he
was wearing.

Hefetz said that simultaneous
IDF activities make providing a
ceramic vest for each soldier
impossible, and military

sources clarified that the IDF cannot afford to
provide the superior ceramic vests for
budgetary reasons.



How can these politico arseholes be making so much money to sit around in offices with their bodyguards outside their doors while sit around and push paper while they send young men into combat without proper attire because ofr budget restrictions?

Who are these people running the country? Are they even Jewish? I blame each of the bureaucrats for this man's life and I'm writing all of them letters telling them so as well as a letter to Jpost and Ha'aretz. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[minusthejihad]

Does anyone know of any charities that directly go to providing the IDF with bullet-proof vests? I know about the bullet-proof vans, but does anyone have info on this matter specifically?

I wonder what the total cost would be and I bet we could raise that in a couple of weeks.

[Communication]

http://www.sosfund.org/ipages/pr_2003_04_21.html


I don't know if they supply them with ceramic vests. We might want to ask them before we send a donation. They should have the best vests made if they are going into places like jenin.

[Mediocrates]

Vests are US $195 - $695 in units of one.

[Mediocrates]

Save our soldiers fund

http://www.sosfund.org/index.html


One Israel Fund Vest Campaign


http://www.oneisraelfund.org/projects/vest_campaign.html

[Communication]

`Here, they're out of Zionism'

By Lily Galili

The concept of two states for two peoples, recently transposed to the social arena, is very perceptible in Sderot, where many simply cannot afford to celebrate the new year holiday.

It was not surprising that this week's pre-Rosh
Hashanah meeting of the single- income mothers and
their psychologist in Sderot began with a
discussion of the birthday party for Shimon Peres
going on at that moment at Heichal Hatarbut in Tel
Aviv. The coincidental timing of these events set
off a fiery debate in Sderot. Many will say the
people of Sderot are being petty and small-minded,
and maybe they're right. But the outpouring of
emotion is definitely connected to poverty. "What
a waste!" fume the women in chorus. "If it's all
being funded by donations, why don't they hand the
money over to the poor, who really need it?"




At that point, they sat around
the table and offered
suggestions about what could be
done with the money. Even in
this forum, they managed to
inject some humor. Better be
careful about insulting those
rich people, they said,
otherwise they might follow
Shari Arison's lead and leave
the country. As they spoke,

they began pulling out of their bags slips of
paper attesting to their measly salaries,
slashed welfare payments, outstanding debts and
bills waiting to be paid. They lug all these
papers around in their handbags, prepared at
all times for some impending catastrophe - or
maybe some miracle.

"Look at this," they say, insisting that I look
at the black-on-white proof of their
misfortune. At home they go hungry, while
Shimon Peres and his guests eat this, that and
the other, they say, as they describe the menu
in minute detail. For a moment, they reminded
me of Hans Christian Andersen's Little Match
Girl, walking the streets on Christmas in the
freezing cold, secretly peering into the houses
of the rich people as they celebrate.

The concept of "two states for two peoples,"
recently transposed to the social arena, is
very perceptible here. Next, logically enough,
the conversation moved to Vicki Knafo, their
representative in Jerusalem, who was a nominee
for "Person of the Year" on Channel 2 and, as
they spoke, was preparing to attend the
festivities for Peres. Knafo, who started out
as Norma Ray, is turning into Norma Jane.

Nevertheless, the women here felt she deserved
to be Person of the Year (although they said so
without much enthusiasm). By the same token,
they think the whole town of Sderot should have
won an award in the social category. "We
deserved it," they say. "We've had it all this
year - poverty and Qassams." Neither Knafo nor
Sderot won the title, but the women here blame
the government. From their point of view, the
government is to blame for everything,
especially when things go wrong.

This meeting at the Sderot office of YEDID, the
Association for Community Empowerment, was
called for two reasons: to toast the Jewish New
Year and meet for the fifth time with Sharon
Dreyfus, a psychologist who has been working
with the women since July. That, too, is a sign
of the times. The only thing that can be done,
in the absence of any other solution, is to
offer these people psychological help.

"Ventilation," Dreyfus calls it - "talking
things out." Liz Elizorov, the coordinator of
YEDID in Sderot, says that the request for
psychological assistance came from the women
themselves in July, when they began to feel the
cuts in welfare. The association, collapsing
under the deluge of callers, organized a
professional workshop on budget management.
Elizorov felt that it wasn't helping. The women
kept asking what they could possibly cut back
on, wondering how one manages a budget that
consists of nothing.

At one of the sessions, the whole business blew
up. Yaffa Ohana, a mother of four, got up and
shouted: "We need a psychologist. We're out of
air. We can't breathe." Elizorov complied. In
psychological lingo, Dreyfus explains what can
be done. "We use these sessions to channel
anger into a capacity for change. Together we
have gone through a process that has progressed
from learning how to breath properly to
proposing ideas for a joint project. The girls
have come up with all sorts of suggestions:
running a clothing distribution center they
will manage themselves, opening a dining hall
that will sell food prepared by the girls
themselves for a token fee, and so on."

Holiday canceled

As one might expect, the workshop has gradually
developed into a kind of support group. Among
the participants are veteran and new immigrants
from the former Soviet Union, especially olim
from the Caucasus, of whom there are many in
Sderot. "The girls," as they are called here,
attend the sessions religiously and have
learned to get the most out of them.

Says Bella, a mother of four: "I never thought
I'd get to the state where I needed a
psychologist, but lately I've been taking
things out on the kids. I'm ashamed of myself."
Her friends quickly assure her she has nothing
to be ashamed of. The ones who should be
ashamed are those who brought her to this. The
trouble is that the two goals of the meeting
this past Sunday were not really achieved.
Maybe it was actually the approach of Rosh
Hashanah, with the threat of further economic
decrees hanging over their heads, that stamped
out the holiday spirit. It was as if Rosh
Hashanah 5764 had been canceled until further
notice due to the situation.

Twelve women, some of them single parents,
others working themselves to the bone to keep
bread on the table, sat together, each with her
own private woes. The meeting with the
psychologist began, not by chance, with a
report on the holiday gift packages they had
organized for the needy of Sderot. They
contacted kibbutzim and made the rounds of
factories to collect food items for these
packages. With unconcealed pride, they reported
that they had assembled enough goods for 20
packages, and hoped that with a little extra
effort, they could bring that number to 25.

[Communication]

This project has therapeutic value, of course,
in that doing something for others enhances
one's own self-esteem. At this stage, the
atmosphere in the room was still pleasant: a
women's get-together that sometimes bordered on
stand-up comedy, with lots of mutual
ego-patting. Only when Dreyfus asked about
their preparations for the holiday did a cloud
of gloom suddenly settle over the room.

"I don't feel the holiday at all this year,"
responded Bella. "Usually I go crazy, cleaning
and shopping. This year I haven't done
anything. I don't have the money and I'm not in
the mood." Yaffa Ohana shares these sentiments:
"Every day I say I'll do the shopping
tomorrow," she says, "but inside, I know I'm
fooling myself. I won't go shopping or do
anything at all. I'm totally dependent on care
packages. It's disgusting that my 21-year-old
son, who just got out of the army, has to wait
for handouts."

Some of the women agree to having their full
name published, but others insist on using only
their first names. Yaffa Ohana actually wants
her full name in the paper, "so the folks over
in Jerusalem will hear it." H. refuses to have
her name mentioned at all, because her son, who
is serving in a combat unit, is ashamed.

Dreyfus, concerned that the conversation could
take an unpleasant turn, suggested that each
participant describe one good thing that had
happened to her that week. The women looked at
one another helplessly. "Even a little thing,"
Dreyfus pleaded. The women continued to stare
blankly at one another. "OK, so something good
that happened this year," said Dreyfus,
broadening the time frame, "and tell us what
you would like for yourselves in the coming
year."

The first part of Dreyfus' request was complied
with begrudgingly, almost as a favor to the
psychologist, of whom they are clearly fond.
One woman said she had a new grandchild and
another said she had a new nephew. The son of a
third woman finished the army, after everyone
predicted he would be like his father, who
didn't serve. In fact, he had been a good
soldier. This woman said she wasn't sure it was
actually a "good thing" because she couldn't be
proud of a country that took a kid for three
years and then left him high and dry.

Mushroom cloud

The second part of the request, which called
for the women to say what they wished
themselves for the new year, went unanswered.
The women of Sderot don't even have enough
imagination anymore for wishful thinking. Only
Etti (not her real name), who walked in late,
just as this question was being posed, had a
wish. She sat down heavily in her chair, her
skin burned a deep red from the fierce desert
sun.

When it was her turn, she spoke quietly, as if
reporting some trivial incident: "For every
slice of bread, I ran myself ragged in the sun.
Now I'm sick. I got the biopsy results today.
Now it's a matter of life and death. What I
wish for myself in the coming year is that
whatever happens to me, the kids grow up
properly. That's it." Etti's announcement that
she has cancer hovers in the air like the
mushroom cloud of an atomic bomb. What can one
say to a 24-year-old unemployed divorc?e with
three children, one of them a 5-month-old baby,
when she is being threatened with eviction from
her rented apartment because of a NIS 4,000
debt, and has just received a diagnosis of
cancer?

Like radioactive fallout, Etti's words settle on
everyone in the room. As often happens when
danger looms, all inhibitions disappear. "This
morning, I got my little girl's schoolbag ready
and she asked where the sandwich was," Lydia
burst out. "I said: I have none. What should I
do? Go out and steal? My kids, poor things, get
one meal a day. I don't even let them out of
the house because every time they go out, they
want something - Bamba, candy. And I can't give
them any. I make NIS 2,000 a month and it all
goes on the mortgage."

She goes on with her chilling confession,
stifling a sob and then openly weeping. After
Lydia comes Anna, who immigrated from the
Caucasus 13 years ago. A month ago, she joined
Vicki Knafo on her march to Jerusalem and
stayed there for two days. Anna has five
children and a husband who was injured in a
work accident just after they arrived, when
they didn't know what their rights were.

Now she has a son who did his military service
in Hebron and Jenin, and another son serving in
a combat unit in the territories. That morning,
her older son asked to come in an hour late to
his factory job so he could see his soldier
brother, who had not been home for a month.
They said okay, but half an hour later, they
phoned up and told him he was fired.

"The Russian foreign minister was right when he
said a couple of years ago: `Go on, go to
Israel and see how the Jews treat Jews," says
Anna bitterly. "You call this a life? In Russia
we were the Zionists. Here, they're out of
Zionism." She ends her tirade and bursts into
tears. But Anna's "Zionism" has not
disappeared entirely, it turns out. She doesn't
always talk this way, she confesses. At the
successful club she runs in Sderot for elderly
immigrants from the Caucasus, currently being
filmed for a documentary, she tells the old
people that a Jewish state is the best place to
be. This is the Holy Land, she says.

They're getting on, after all, and it's better
for them to feel that way in the few years they
have left to live. Deep inside, however, she
knows that Primakov was right. Etti, setting
aside her illness for the moment, looks at her
kindly and says:

"It's not enough that the Arabs are killing us.
The government has to gang up on us, too."
Toward the end of the meeting, the women rally
together whatever energy and strength they have
left. They open a bottle of sparkling wine and
someone slices a cream cake she has baked. "To
life and a good year," they call out in unison,
all eyes on Etti, in whose honor they have made
an effort to celebrate. "In with the new year,
out with the old," they sing, laughing, but
secretly wiping away a tear.

[Communication]

http://www.freeloan.org.il/

This organization gives interest-free loans to people in need in Israel. I wrote Ha'aretz to find out if there is an additional fund to help the women of Sderot out a little until the financial conditions turn around. In the meantime, if anyone here has any information, please post it.

I am very sensitive to the issue of poverty throughout the world. Honestly, I do not understand the point in having a Jewish society with such extremes between rich and poor. I think it's shameful. Really, I'm not just preaching. It's the kind of thing that breaks my heart and makes me want to move to Canada and not Israel because the rich Jews just don't understand anymore. :(

[mimil]

The issue of poverty, it goes far beyond the Jewish society. You are taught in schools that nobility has been abolished in many so-called “developed countries”. Funny that it has been replaced with bourgeoisie. Same thing different name, nobles use to pass there tittle to there descendants, the rich pass there money. The difference being that any one now can become rich. You wish, study shows that in Europe around 85% of the population stays in the same “class” as their parents. And even if you do change status, it will hardly be anything more than a leap. Of course there is counter examples, some people also used to gain noble tittles.

What I don’t understand is that we live in a society, as individuals we are probably unable to survive, and still this society preaches individualism, favours egocentricity, and honours personal wealth. It is amazingly contradictory. It is shameful to have someone making any descent amount of money complaining when it comes to pay taxes, because he could then no longer afford that product he saw on TV and wanted so much. He could argue on the way the tax money is handled and would in that case truly fulfil his duty as a citizen.

Surprisingly, it is mostly outside economic centres that you find such values as welcoming or sharing. In developing countries, in rural areas.

The most tragic is that education is often economy oriented. It doesn’t teach youngsters to think well, it teaches them to perform in an economy driven society. Lots of knowledge and ability to understand and criticise knowledge is far from being equivalent. Then we hardly follow our principles, we do “that work” because we need the money or because we are taught that we need the money, sometime the answer to any question on the issue would result in a resigned “Well one needs to make a living”.

Be concerned about wealth differences is being concerned about breach between social groups. The answer as you suggested is left in between social groups:

“I do not understand the point in having a Jewish society with such extremes between rich and poor”

Well I do not understand the point in having a society with such extremes between rich and poor.
If you are so concerned about this breach while stop at Jewish society. National identity, ethnical identity, religion if used as a closure for the resolution of social issues can only make them worse. In my opinion this is one of the reason why countries have so many difficulties resolving problems, because they want to hold on to their wealth, because the notion of propriety is in everyone’s mind.

On that specific topic, I recently received a letter by the embassy stating that from now on we need to apply for passport in advance because a new security feature has been included (Optical reading something). The passport can only be made in a certain place and delays are increasing. The reason? This security feature is now compulsory to enter the US without a VISA. I thought to myself, “stupid Americans they cannot help but impose there will to the rest of us.” Then I went to check on the embassy web site for more details. I came across something else:

Visa for domestic helpers

LIST OF DOCUMENTS TO BE SUBMITTED TOGETHER WITH A VISA APPLICATION FOR A DOMESTIC HELPER TRAVELING WITH THEIR EMPLOYER: THE DOMESTIC HELPER MUST BE PRESENT AT THE EMBASSY WHEN REQUIRING A VISA.

visa application form

1 photograph

passport

work permit (with a validity of more than two months after the date of return to Singapore)

reservation for return ticket (the domestic helper must travel with her employer or his/her spouse on both ways). Tickets are to be shown upon collection of the visa.

travel insurance

letter from employer's company stating that he will still be employed by the company in Singapore when he returns and the dates of its vacations

proof that the domestic helper has been employed for at least six months by her employer

responsibility letter to be signed by employer when applying for the visa

The processing delays may vary according to the nationalities of the applicants. It is advisable to start the process one month before departure (The processing time for Indonesia and Filipines citizens vary between 10 to 14 days). The domestic helper will have to come to the Embassy within the seven days following her return to Singapore. If she fails to do so, no visa will be issued to her in the future (or to any other domestic helper of the same employer).

It’s not much better, rather far worse, than what I complain about when it comes to the US required security feature. We are far from being a wise species, as we like to claim it.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Communication

I am very sensitive to the issue of poverty throughout the world. Honestly, I do not understand the point in having a Jewish society with such extremes between rich and poor. I think it's shameful. Really, I'm not just preaching. It's the kind of thing that breaks my heart and makes me want to move to Canada and not Israel because the rich Jews just don't understand anymore. :(

Israel has probably the highest taxes on the rich in the western world. Directly or indirectly the state takes about 2/3 of their income. It can't be pushed any higher.

The main reason for social contrasts in Israel is the existance of a large mass of people looking to the state for provision, rather than trying to acquire a decent profession or often any job whatsoever. The vast majority of poor is made by two sectors where seven-eight children is a norm. Why should others provide for them?

[Communication]

Originally posted by Mercury
Israel has probably the highest taxes on the rich in the western world. Directly or indirectly the state takes about 2/3 of their income. It can't be pushed any higher.

The main reason for social contrasts in Israel is the existance of a large mass of people looking to the state for provision, rather than trying to acquire a decent profession or often any job whatsoever. The vast majority of poor is made by two sectors where seven-eight children is a norm. Why should others provide for them?

I understand your frustration. Much of the burdern rests with the government's ability to take that revenue and provide job training, child care and other incentives for people to acquire new skills while creating new infrastructure that will expand the job sector. Providing hand outs are neccessary, but ideally should be given only in times of life emergencies, as a safety net. The way I look at it, Israelis have built the nation under amazingly difficult circumstances. I am amazed at how much progress has been made in such a short time frame and under such tremendous pressure. At this point, the country needs to be molded, it's social and economic institutions refined. I can't think of a greater incentive for world Jewry than the opportunity to participate in this process by contributing our experience in business, law, diplomacy, social welfare and democracy. In return, I hope that Israelis will export organic Israeli culture to the diaspora, starting with hebrew and also film, literature, and music.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Mercury
Israel has probably the highest taxes on the rich in the western world. Directly or indirectly the state takes about 2/3 of their income. It can't be pushed any higher.

The main reason for social contrasts in Israel is the existance of a large mass of people looking to the state for provision, rather than trying to acquire a decent profession or often any job whatsoever. The vast majority of poor is made by two sectors where seven-eight children is a norm. Why should others provide for them?

I don't believe that your first statement is still true in the present, although this was the case two decades ago.

I am not sure if I completely agree with your second statement, either.

Assuredly, a considerable proportion of the "poor" is ultra-Orthodox, with a norm not of 7-8 children, but 10-12 children, with neither parent employed. However, this sector if a very small portion of the entire population of Israel.

And yes, there probably is a significant number of people very comfortable living off the dole.

However, you have omitted mentioning the huge influx of immigrants from the Former Soviet Union, and the considerable numbers who have only very recently immigrated from South America.

Like you, I definitely resent supporting the ultra-religious who irresponsibly have a dozen children whom they know they have no hope of feeding and clothing, and the loafers living on the dole.

However, what about the immigrants? What about the employers who take on cheap Palestinian workers instead of the more "expensive" Jewish laborers? What about companies with mandatory retirement in the worker's early 50s? Kibbutz privatization has caused much unemployment in small towns, which have always been burdened with high unemployment rates. What has the government done in the last three decades to promote and develop a healthy industrial infrastructure in peripheral areas with traditionally high unemployment rates?

It is not nearly as simple as you stated.

[Mercury]

To Communication:

You are very diplomatic. :) However, with me you can skip the compliments and say what you really think. I won't go berserk over someone disagreeing with me. You can just state your arguments. If I can I'll refute them and may be convince you that I'm right, if I can't I hope I'm openminded enough to change my own opinion.



To wellofvow:

Originally posted by wellofvow
I don't believe that your first statement is still true in the present, although this was the case two decades ago.



The change was more cosmetic than real. The official income tax fell by several per cent, but "healthcare tax" was invented instead, which is not really different from the income tax.
Can you name me any western country were the total tax burden is higher than in Israel?


Assuredly, a considerable proportion of the "poor" is ultra-Orthodox, with a norm not of 7-8 children, but 10-12 children, with neither parent employed. However, this sector if a very small portion of the entire population of Israel.


May be two decades ago they were a small portion but not anymore. And with 10-12 children they are bound to become a majority unless something drastic happens. Besides orthodox aren't the only sector with large families.


However, what about the immigrants?What about the employers who take on cheap Palestinian workers instead of the more "expensive" Jewish laborers? What has the government done in the last three decades to promote and develop a healthy industrial infrastructure in peripheral areas with traditionally high unemployment rates?


The reason I didn't mention immigrants in the first place is because I'm the one myself and I didn't want to make it personal. However, let me give you my father as an example. He arrived to Israel when he was 52, so he couldn't hope much to use his degree in economics. Still he worked as a construction worker, an agricultural worker, a plumber and so on. Jobs for the cheap Palestinian workers like you said. Today he is 64, he lives in a "peripheral area" and he is still working.

The typical fashionable item on the news in Israel is to show some men, often 30-35 years of age, sitting in a cafe somewhere in Dimona and talking about the heartless goverment not providing them with a "dignified job". Hard as I try I can't feel much compassion for them.

I believe that for the new immigrants as a group the economic problems are transitionary (though not for the older generation). However, keeping the welfare policies started by the Rabin goverment will create a permanent, constantly multiplying group of professional poor.

[elke]

This is one of those universal problems, not unique to Israel, albeit exacerbated by the security situation there. Unless we, as a society, are ready to force abortions, adoptions, and/or other repressive population control methods - I think, we will be dealing with families who have too many children to support, for many decades to come. I, for one, am completely unready to force such drastic solutions on other people. I don't think there will ever be a point at which this would become an option. Therefore, solution(s) must be found to deal with the situation as it is currently.

Realistically, taking away - or slashing into insignificance - the public dole from people, would IMO create more problems than it would solve. As it is, most crime is economic in nature; so that additional individuals with nothing to lose and children to somehow feed, will find themselves wards of the state - be it Israel, US, or another country, with any sort of functional law enforcement. Needless to say, in countries without a functional law enforcement, the situation would be even more dire.

It seems to me that one of the problems with the current welfare reform projects, is that they attempt a "one size fits all" solutions. While for some single mothers, the biggest problem is day care for their small children - i.e. they are quite capable of getting a reasonable job, for others there may be a skills problem. Or, in many cases, additionally a psychological problem with self-esteem. These cases have to be handled differently! In fact, different psychological profiles have to be handled differently!

Again, it comes down to education, understood in its broadest sense, as in "raising a child" - where not only information is passed on, but psychological and moral qualities, as well as ability to survive - are nurtured. I know, one of the things I try to do with my own children, is to equip them with ability to deal with various situations that occur; and give them the confidence that they can deal with these situations. Confidence in their own ability to discern what's required, and act upon it! This is indeed a very tall order for both, the educational system and a welfare system; but nevertheless, IMO, this is the only solution to such problems.

Immigrants are yet another category, with additional sub-categories within it. Speaking of the group I know best, immigrants from the FSU, some have been - pardon the French - screwed up by the foul system that developed in USSR over the 70+ years of its existence, where they believe that good things are only possible if you know the right people, or pay bribes, or other such irrelevant issues - rather than through hard work. Others - majority, I think, - will take on any job, to get themselves out of the rut new immigrants find themselves in...

The answer is still education though; and many immigrants take full advantage of the opportunities they are given in their new countries, be it Israel or US. By and large, whether or not the older immigrants get into the swing of things in their new country, their children do.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by elke
Realistically, taking away - or slashing into insignificance - the public dole from people, would IMO create more problems than it would solve. As it is, most crime is economic in nature;

I'm familiar with a theory claiming that the social evils take root in social inequality and therefore cannot be healed without very generous funding by "the privileged". I would like to see how this theory explains some statistical facts. Lets take US this time.

With the exception of indians, may be, most asian immigrants typically come to US without good knowledge of English, money, higher education or local know-how. Therefore, according the above theory, they should be at the end of the social ladder and show worse crime statistics than local afroamericans, who at least know english and are natives of the place. But somehow even within their lives they manage to attain income higher than that of the average white man. They are also strongly UNDERREPRESENTED in crime involvement. The difference even increases in the next generation.

Interestingly black immigrants to US from Caribean area also attain higher income than the local blacks, but here the difference disappears in the next generation.

Can you explain this to me?

[elke]

Originally posted by Mercury
I'm familiar with a theory claiming that the social evils take root in social inequality and therefore cannot be healed without very generous funding by "the privileged".

This was NOT the point I was trying to make.

First of all, social evils have social inequality among their causes. It is one of many, and possibly not even a principal one. The second inaccuracy: namely, the categorical statement after "therefore", is not really a logical conclusion, based on the other points I was trying to make.

Just so there was no misunderstanding regarding where I get the idea, that taking away all the assistance from the unemployed mothers of children, would lead to more crime. Having been in situations, where were it not for friends and family, I would have had no way of feeding my children, I know very well that I'd do whatever it takes to do so. If "whatever it takes" happens to be illegal, disregarding the moral qualms I would have about stealing, that's what I would have done. So, I am assuming that there are plenty of others, seemingly normal, moral people, who feel the same way. Moreover, the more experience I get, the more I realize that there are few - if any - people who would do otherwise.


I would like to see how this theory explains some statistical facts.

Sorry, it's not my theory; therefore, I cannot explain how it affects anything at all. ;)

Lets take US this time.

With the exception of indians, may be, most asian immigrants typically come to US without good knowledge of English, money, higher education or local know-how. Therefore, according the above theory, they should be at the end of the social ladder and show worse crime statistics than local afroamericans, who at least know english and are natives of the place. But somehow even within their lives they manage to attain income higher than that of the average white man. They are also strongly UNDERREPRESENTED in crime involvement. The difference even increases in the next generation.

I do not think your premise is correct: the Chinese mafia is quite strong here. Asian immigrants, like our Russians, often work for "cash", do not pay taxes, and run nefarious and semi-nefarious businesses. Therefore, there is plenty of crime in their communities as well.

However, to explain their not being "at the bottom of the heap", so to speak, - again, similar to us, - the community is quite strong, which allows the more established community members to help new arrivals. This is the essential point, which makes all the difference. Because on the other end of the spectrum, there are Mexican and other South American immigrants, whose communities are very weak, and relatively poor. Therefore, there are many on welfare rolls, as well as in prisons - again, mostly for economic crimes, such as stealing.

Interestingly black immigrants to US from Caribean area also attain higher income than the local blacks, but here the difference disappears in the next generation.

Can you explain this to me?

The African American communities in the US, are a very special situation altogether. At the risk of getting pelted by virtual rotten vegetables from every which way, here is my opinion on the subject of why their situation is as bad as it is.

IMO, it has to do with the actual principal root of poverty; which is not economic, but rather psychological. There is a view, that Moses wandered in the desert for 40 years, in order to allow the old generation, born in slavery, to die out - and so that only the new generation, born and bred in freedom, entered the Holy Land. There is much to be said for wisdom of this. In the US, after the Civil War, the African Americans were dropped in the sea, to sink or swim, as they might. Most sunk. As was to be expected, because they were not psychologically prepared for the freedom. Education in slaves was frowned upon, as was marriage, - as was personal initiative and uniting into communities.

These things are changing, - and have been changing for 100+ years. It will, however, take a few more generations, IMO, to completely wipe out the slavery experience from the genetic memory of the African Americans. Needless to say, that the vestiges of that time, in the form of segregationist laws, have not disappeared until the 1960s! Well within the personal memories of many African Americans.

[Mercury]

Originally posted by elke

Just so there was no misunderstanding regarding where I get the idea, that taking away all the assistance from the unemployed mothers of children, would lead to more crime.


I'm not saying that all the assistance should be cancelled. In my opinion providing a subsidized daycare for the children might be a good idea. However, the present situation when the mothers are given cash shouldn't continue. Since about ten years ago when the benefits were increased, the number of single mothers among native israelis increased several times. This can only be explained by a massive fraud (couples that don't register). Besides the number of working single mothers dropped strongly.


I do not think your premise is correct: the Chinese mafia is quite strong here. Asian immigrants, like our Russians, often work for "cash", do not pay taxes, and run nefarious and semi-nefarious businesses. Therefore, there is plenty of crime in their communities as well.


Certainly, there are asian criminals and like all foreign criminals they are more likely to hit the headlines. However, if you open an official report on crime in US you'll see that the asians commit crime several times less often then should correspond to their population (unlike blacks and latinos who overperform).


However, to explain their not being "at the bottom of the heap", so to speak, - again, similar to us, - the community is quite strong, which allows the more established community members to help new arrivals. This is the essential point, which makes all the difference. Because on the other end of the spectrum, there are Mexican and other South American immigrants, whose communities are very weak, and relatively poor.


Even assuming that the present day asian immigrants owe their success to the strength of their community, how did they acquire that strength in the first place? In the begining of past century they were just as poor as blacks or latinos were.


In the US, after the Civil War, the African Americans were dropped in the sea, to sink or swim, as they might. Most sunk. As was to be expected, because they were not psychologically prepared for the freedom. Education in slaves was frowned upon, as was marriage, - as was personal initiative and uniting into communities.

These things are changing, - and have been changing for 100+ years. It will, however, take a few more generations, IMO, to completely wipe out the slavery experience from the genetic memory of the African Americans.

The slavery in the Carribean aree was abolished not much earlier than in US, so this doesn't explain why the black immigrants from there are more enterprising. And why their children not.

[elke]

Originally posted by Mercury
[QUOTE]I'm not saying that all the assistance should be cancelled. In my opinion providing a subsidized daycare for the children might be a good idea. However, the present situation when the mothers are given cash shouldn't continue. Since about ten years ago when the benefits were increased, the number of single mothers among native israelis increased several times. This can only be explained by a massive fraud (couples that don't register). Besides the number of working single mothers dropped strongly.


To be honest with you, in the situation I was in, the day care alone would not have helped. I was working. The trouble was that my husband couldn't for a while, due to illness; and the rent - plus food - cannot be paid by day care alone. My problem was that, with the skills I had at the time, my salary wasn't adequate to support 3 people (this was when I just had my first baby). And that was including the work I brought home every day, and a second job at a pharmacy in town, 2 days a week.

This is a common problem. I've known many, many people in this situation. I knew a woman, whose husband was a self-employed contractor, making good money, adequate to purchase a house, car, etc. And then he got sick. Disability was perfectly inadequate to support the house, which they lost. Their savings went to help pay for his medical troubles, and his wife had minimal skills and only a high school education. She was working as a clerk in the insurance company I worked at, making peanuts, and at another place as well. What do you propose for situations like that?

The sad fact is, that some, like me, are able to overcome the skills and illness within minimal time and with help only from their family and friends. Others, however, cannot - either because they do not have adequate support in family and friends, or because they are psychologically different. That was my point: that the reform has to be done with thought, and tailored to the specific situation. It's a very tall order for a government program, but IMO, it is necessary to resolve this issue adequately.

Certainly, there are asian criminals and like all foreign criminals they are more likely to hit the headlines. However, if you open an official report on crime in US you'll see that the asians commit crime several times less often then should correspond to their population (unlike blacks and latinos who overperform).

Don't forget that in order to be counted in the official reports, the criminals have to be caught. Other than the mafiosos, who are involved in slave trade and other such criminal activity that leaves serious traces, the small fry - those working for cash and other such minor economic crimes - will not show up much, as it's rather difficult to detect and relatively minimal law enforcement resources go towards its detection. Nevertheless, it's still illegal activity, and it's still an economic crime.

Even assuming that the present day asian immigrants owe their success to the strength of their community, how did they acquire that strength in the first place? In the begining of past century they were just as poor as blacks or latinos were. The slavery in the Carribean aree was abolished not much earlier than in US, so this doesn't explain why the black immigrants from there are more enterprising. And why their children not.

No, they weren't! There are a couple of things that need to be considered here:
First of all, as I mentioned earlier, the psychological factors due to slavery must be taken into account. Attitudes change at a snail's pace, always, and take generations to overcome. African Americans were strongly discouraged from various highly productive things, like building communities, during slavery times, which has had an enormous effect on their lives since Civil War and abolition of slavery. Asian immigrants did not have this hurdle to overcome; but Latinos sort of do!

The second point is, that whether from Caribbean, or from Russia, or from Asia - the individuals that were able to scrape up passage money and emotional strength to emigrate, are already psychologically at an advantage. They, by definition, have a set of characteristics that allow them to succeed, even if marginally, against the backdrop of the majority of humanity. Many Latinos, on the other hand, simply walked here.

For sure, if the welfare-type programs were to be abolished, some of the individuals currently on welfare rolls would find themselves gainful employment. However, many others, IMO would find criminal - albeit gainful to them - employment also.

What I am trying to say, is that thoughtful, individualized, well-run welfare program, designed to be a stepstool, rather than simply a safety net, is what's needed to resolve these issues.