For those who still dream of Greater Israel [Archive]

Communication

08-31-2003, 12:56 PM

A FAILED ISRAELI SOCIETY COLLAPSES WHILE ITS LEADERS
REMAIN SILENT
By Avraham Burg, Labor Party Knesset member
The FORWARD
August 29, 2003 Issue

The Zionist revolution has always rested on two
pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership.
Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli
nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and
on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such,
the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our
doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the
last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish
state here, but it will be a different sort, strange
and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is
needed is a new vision of a just society and the
political will to implement it. Nor is this merely an
internal Israeli affair. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel
is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed
and speak out. If the pillar collapses, the upper
floors will come crashing down.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with
Arik Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain
silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has
suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to
say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we
have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvelous
theater and a strong national currency. Our Jewish
minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the
Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish
people did not survive for two millennia in order to
pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or
anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light
unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish
survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by
an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf
both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state
lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis
are coming to understand this as they ask their
children where they expect to live in 25 years.
Children who are honest admit, to their parents'
shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end
of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank
settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical
landscape is charming. From the window you can gaze
through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see
the occupation. Traveling on the fast highway that
takes you from Ramot on Jerusalem's northern edge to
Gilo on the southern edge, a 12-minute trip that
skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian
roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating
experience of the despised Arab who must creep for
hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to
him. One road for the occupier, one road for the
occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads
and swallow their shame and anger forever, it won't
work. A structure built on human callousness will
inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment
well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing
like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen
continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars
below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of
the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear
the cries of the abused woman living next door or the
single mother struggling to support her children in
dignity. We don't even bother to count the women
murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of
the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they
come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the
centers of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves
to Allah in our places of recreation, because their
own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in
our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites,
because they have children and parents at home who are
hungry and humiliated.

We could kill a thousand ringleaders and engineers a
day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders
come up from below from the wells of hatred and anger,
from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral
corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and
immutable, I would be silent. But things could be
different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the
people:

The time for illusions is over. The time for decisions
has arrived. We love the entire land of our
forefathers and in some other time we would have
wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen.
The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no
longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow
citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing
without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian
majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time
think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East.
There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all
who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the
territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the
world's only Jewish state not by means that are humane
and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater Land of Israel? No problem.
Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system
of racial separation here, with prison camps and
detention villages. Qalqilya Ghetto and Gulag Jenin.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put
the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys
and expel them en masse or separate ourselves from
them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is
no middle path. We must remove all the settlements all
of them and draw an internationally recognized border
between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian
national home. The Jewish Law of Return will apply
only within our national home, and their right of
return will apply only within the borders of the
Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the
greater Land of Israel, to the last settlement and
outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to
everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will
be that those who did not want a Palestinian state
alongside us will have one in our midst, via the
ballot box.

That's what the prime minister should say to the
people. He should present the choices forthrightly:
Jewish racialism or democracy. Settlements or hope for
both peoples. False visions of barbed wire, roadblocks
and suicide bombers, or a recognized international
border between two states and a shared capital in
Jerusalem.

But there is no prime minister in Jerusalem. The
disease eating away at the body of Zionism has already
attacked the head. David Ben-Gurion sometimes erred,
but he remained straight as an arrow. When Menachem
Begin was wrong, nobody impugned his motives. No
longer. Polls published last weekend showed that a
majority of Israelis do not believe in the personal
integrity of the prime minister yet they trust his
political leadership. In other words, Israel's current
prime minister personally embodies both halves of the
curse: suspect personal morals and open disregard for
the law combined with the brutality of occupation and
the trampling of any chance for peace. This is our
nation, these its leaders. The inescapable conclusion
is that the Zionist revolution is dead.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because
it's summer, or because they are tired, or because
some would like to join the government at any price,
even the price of participating in the sickness. But
while they dither, the forces of good lose hope.

This is the time for clear alternatives. Anyone who
declines to present a clear-cut position black or
white is in effect collaborating in the decline. It is
not a matter of Labor versus Likud or right versus
left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus
unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers.
What's needed is not a political replacement for the
Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative
to the destruction of Zionism and its values by the
deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad Jewish and non-Jewish alike,
presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people
should choose as well. They must reach out and help
Israel to navigate the road map toward our national
destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of
peace, justice and equality.

Translated by J.J. Goldberg.

Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset from 1999
to 2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency
for Israel. He is currently a Labor Party Knesset
member. This essay is adapted by the author from an
article that appeared in Yediot Aharonot.

Communication

08-31-2003, 04:45 PM

Separation now

By Amram Mitzna

It's hard to say that the liquidation of an
arch-terrorist causes anyone in Israel to shed a
tear. They are despicable, balking at nothing to
murder innocent Israelis, and therefore they
deserve to die. But that is not the question. The
only question we should ask ourselves is, what is
best for us. Is the government's campaign of
assassinations now being waged against the
terrorist organizations serving the Israeli
interest and contributing to the enhancement of

security?

Voicing the slogan we all
remember, "Make it possible for
the IDF [Israel Defense Forces]
to win," Ariel Sharon assured
the public that he was the only
one capable of defeating
terrorism. He won the elections
but has not won against the
terrorists. Nor has the IDF. On

the contrary: Over the past three years, the
security of Israel's citizens has deteriorated
to a level that is without parallel in the
country's history. This is the reality - but it
doesn't have to be that way. Leaders are
elected in order to change the reality, in
order to lead, not to yield to the dictates of
someone else, least of all terrorist
organizations. But that is just what Sharon has
done.

The national interest of the State of Israel -
and there are now those on the right who admit
this - is separation from the Palestinians.
This is the only way to ensure that Israel will
be able to remain a viable Jewish state. We are
currently at a critical point that will decide
whether Israel will continue to exist as a
democratic Jewish state or become a binational
state in which there will be an Arab majority
within a few years.

The original sin of indecision can be traced to
1967. The Six-Day War was a tremendous military
victory but a total political-security failure.
The first person to grasp this was David
Ben-Gurion. He, like many others, was thrilled
and moved at the return to the lands of our
forefathers. However, as a leader bearing
national responsibility for the security of
Israel and the future of the Zionist movement,
Ben-Gurion was able - in contrast to all the
leaders since - to look beyond the horizon, and
called on the government of Israel to leave the
new territories.

Years passed and Israel became ever more mired
in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. By now we are so
mired that we are no longer capable of lifting
our heads and understanding the reality in
which we are living. For years, successive
governments deceived the public by leading it
to believe that holding onto Judea, Samaria and
Gaza is a security necessity, that the
territories are a national asset and that any
concession in them will be detrimental to
security. Yitzhak Rabin decided to snap us out
of this illusionary dream. Rabin was hardly a
member of Peace Now, but he understood what the
terrorist organizations also understand and
what, unfortunately, the government of Ariel
Sharon has yet to understand: that the
continued confrontation with the Palestinians
and the continued Israeli control of Judea,
Samaria and Gaza means the liquidation of
Zionism and the end of the Jewish state. He
understood that control of Judea, Samaria and
Gaza is not an asset but a burden that is
putting our continued survival at risk.

It follows that agreement to the establishment
of a Palestinian state is neither a concession
nor a surrender. It is an asset. There will be
no Jewish state without the existence of a
Palestinian state alongside it. This has to be
the goal and any government policy has to be
examined in its light - including the policy of
targeted assassinations, which, I regret to
say, is the only policy now guiding the
government of Israel.

There is no doubt the cold-blooded murder of
children and of innocent civilians is maddening
and infuriating and that one's primary instinct
is to react. To take revenge. To teach them a
lesson. To make them as afraid as we are. To
make them run. But this is no more than a
dream. In reality, every liquidation engenders
a terrorist attack and more casualties. Instead
of looking ahead, as true leaders should, and
acting to advance the Israeli interest -
namely, separation from the Palestinians - the
government is being sucked into the vicious
circle of terrorism-reaction-terrorism.
Amazingly, however, the policy of liquidations
has not succeeded in vanquishing the
terrorists. In the test of practicality, the
security of Israel's citizens has not improved.
The policy of targeted assassinations has
failed and the time has come to admit it.

We have reached the moment of decision. I expect
Sharon to behave like a leader and understand
that the responsibility for the fate of Israel
rests on his shoulders. Separation from the
Palestinians is the only goal that should be
dictating Israeli policy, and we have no time
to amuse ourselves with the thought that we
will succeed in defeating terrorism by means of
military force. Anyone who says we will is
deceiving the public. If Sharon is right and
"there is no one to talk to" on the other side,
then we have to separate unilaterally, and the
sooner the better.

The writer is a Labor member of Knesset.

Mediocrates

08-31-2003, 07:54 PM

This is nonsense. I have 4 pages of handwritten notes I'm compiling into an essay to refute this. It will take a few days and when I'm done it's going out to every policy relevant contact I can think of. The short and the long of it is that Israel must develop a policy independent of any expectations of performance by the PLO and it should formulate it strictly in accordance with following rule of law. Which translates to calling treason treason and sedition sedition. Instead of worrying about a one state or two state or fake state solution. Take the entire discussion off the table completely. Have a single message: Any terrorist attack will be met with ultimate force. Why? Res Ipsa Loquitor.

Take right of return completely off the table forever. When the perpetrator is dead then one can only go against the next best thing, and that is the family. Move all family members to border areas with all Arab states as a human buffer zone and bar them and all of their decendants in perpetuity from ever settling in Israel or Palestine ever.

Create a harsh yet finite response for every attack - say 3 days of 100% all out IDF action followed by one day in the future chosen at random. Apply the same rules to ANY state shown to actively support terrorism.

The last leg of the policy assumes a militia. For example, instead of pulling back settlements, arm the settlers. Give each one a shoulder fired rocket and a gun and when they protect themselves claim simply you can't find them. The key problem is that Palestinians have IT ALL on the line and are willing to lose it all. The Israelis have to put their very existence on the line now and have to be willing, truly willing to lose it all to save themselves. Without it Israel is slowly dying. Israel is not the Red Coats they are the Minutemen. They need to flip this argument around onthe PLO and they have to be unafraid. If it means it all goes up in flames then so be it but the alternatve is slow death.

Sharon is becoming a failure in this regard. Negotiations assume that your partner is interested in negotiating but all the mamby pambying the world attempting to show the PA as unreliable only shows the Israelis to be weak and vacillating.

More to follow. I will refine this and it will go to the MFA, the White House, PNAC and its members personally.

alexbmn

08-31-2003, 09:24 PM

posting Labor party articles? They've been marginalized even in Israel

frizzer1

08-31-2003, 10:42 PM

I don't think it's all nonsense.As a matter of fact a lot of it makes sense.
But there is the usual fatal flaw, and that is until the arabs accept Israel's right to exist,it makes no difference if Israel dismantles the settlements,withdraws to pre 1967 borders or even treats the palestinians like long lost relatives.
Once the arabs truly accept israel and forego the use of violence forever,only then can israel afford to take the steps recommended in the post.

Communication

09-01-2003, 05:30 AM

In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.

old-reb

09-01-2003, 05:48 AM

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by frizzer1
I don't think it's all nonsense.As a matter of fact a lot of it makes sense.
But there is the usual fatal flaw, and that is until the arabs accept Israel's right to exist,it makes no difference if Israel dismantles the settlements,withdraws to pre 1967 borders or even treats the palestinians like long lost relatives.
Once the arabs truly accept israel and forego the use of violence forever,only then can israel afford to take the steps recommended in the post.

Until unless - - make no difference. There is no such thing as any solution as long as the Palestinians aren't beholden to law. No one cares if they truly accept anything other responsibility for THEIR OWN actions and policies. There is NO requirement for Israel to bother with any unilateral policy or action until then.

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Communication
In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.

"They" already have. But it's a meaningless request borne of laziness and fatigue. And it's triply silly because neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will accept that.

Communication

09-01-2003, 07:40 AM

actually, the Palestinians are starting to push more and more for a bi-national state, with the right of return as an alternative. They are using Lebanon as a model, which has resulted in the emmigration of close to 900,000 Christians over the years and the naturalization of some 300,000 Syrian Muslims, thereby altering the balance of the Christian/Muslim population. All of this is happening under the guise and ideal of western "multiculturalism," which would be positive, if not for the fact that the end result is the further Islamization of the ME.

But the point is that we are at a cross-roads. Israel cannot keep the Palestinians under occupation forever and Israel is losing the PR battle. The latter is causing the Palestinians to increase their hopes for regaining all of historic Palestine, so if Israel continues to wait for the Palestinians to come to terms with its existence, they will actually decrease their chances of retaining Israel as a Jewish state.

Communication

09-01-2003, 08:03 AM

The Lebanon model. I urge you to read this to understand the parallels between the western reaction to the Lebanese conflict and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and what the future will hold if decisive action isnt taken soon to seperate the Jews from the Muslims in the territories:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/8b5/8b5040.html

abu afak

09-01-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Communication
In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.

Many Anti-semites and Anti-Israelers are already calling for a 'Bi-National State'.
(ie the Rabid Anti-semite Israel Shamir)
Understanding, of course, demographically, that the State will Be an Arab/Muslim majority in short order; Free to change the Laws constitution, open 'Israel' to even further Arab immigration .. and rather quickly force an end to Israel in any Jewish sense.. or in any Jews sense.

Lebanon has been purged of about 1 milion of it's Christians by the Muslims/Muslim-Syrian Pupppet Goverment there.
The Lebanese 'Civil War' started soon after the arrival of Arafat and co. in 1970 after their failed attempt to overthrow King Hussein and rule the other/real Palestinian state... Jordan
(see 'Black September')

Anyone proposing this 'solution' is a mental midget or someone who wants to see the end of Israel.

MGB8

09-01-2003, 01:14 PM

The problem with Mitna and his lefty co-patriots is that they DO NOT THINK ABOUT "the day after."

They think that "give them what they (say that they) want, and they will stop attacking us."

That is possible. History (and polls) tells us, however, that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

What happens if we give the PLO their state today, and we get rocket attacks tomorrow? You have to admit that this is possible...in fact, considering the mission of the PLO, Hamas, etc (the destruction of Israel) and the poll numbers which show that the vast majority of Pal-Arabs still want this, and that most Arab states also do not recognize Israel's right to exists (and most Arabs, too, regardless of nationality)....what does Israel do? Re-Invade? How many die then?

Or, what if attacks stop for a while, but with open boarders, they build up their forces (like they did in 1993 - 2000 when Israel STILL HAD MILITARY CONTROL - mostly) but with no impediments add Chemical and Biological weapons, more accurate missles, and bigger warheads?

What if they decide to rip up the "peace of paper" and attack, but claim that its just "Terrorist factions" that they couldn't possibly stop - like Pakistan/India?

What do you do then, Communication? Mitna?

And what happens as a reaction to what you do - regional war??

These scenarios are THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOMES!!!! Allowing them to come to pass is INCOMPETENCE, at best, and TRAITOROUS TO YOUR PEOPLE, at worst.

ibrodsky

09-01-2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
Many Anti-semites and Anti-Israelers are already calling for a 'Bi-National State'.
(ie the Rabid Anti-semite Israel Shamir)
Understanding, of course, demographically, that the State will Be an Arab/Muslim majority in short order; Free to change the Laws constitution, open 'Israel' to even further Arab immigration .. and rather quickly force an end to Israel in any Jewish sense.. or in any Jews sense.

Lebanon has been purged of about 1 milion of it's Christians by the Muslims/Muslim-Syrian Pupppet Goverment there.
The Lebanese 'Civil War' started soon after the arrival of Arafat and co. in 1970 after their failed attempt to overthrow King Hussein and rule the other/real Palestinian state... Jordan
(see 'Black September')

Anyone proposing this 'solution' is a mental midget or someone who wants to see the end of Israel.

Right. In fact, they call for a "secular" bi-national state--as if Islam has been reconciled with Western principles and values.

In reality, the plan is to first delegitimze Israel as a Jewish state. Then flood that state with Muslims. Then suddenly demand "true democracy" in the form of a Muslim-dominated government.

There is no lie, no ruse, no slander, and no evil act that Israel's Arab enemies won't try to destroy Israel.

Communication

09-01-2003, 02:46 PM

Ok, let's talk about our options here:

1. continue on with the road map in the hopes that we can reach an agreement with the PA.

2. transfer

3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

4. unilateral seperation.

5. Other suggestions.

Israel is receiving the most presure to pursue option number 1. I wrote a whole post on why option 1 won't work, namely that the terror groups have more credability than the PA with the Palestinian people and the PA itself is divided on what would be acceptable upon final neogtiation. If you look at the history of Oslo, the road map is a repeat of that. Both sides were urged to move forards despite breaches on each side, until we reached Camp David and then Taba, only for everything to break down and the violence started. If you look at what was achieved at Taba, where Israel went even further in their concessions to the PA, you will see that despite all the rhetoric about non-continguous land and such other excuses, the real reasons for the break down had to do with control over holy sites, but even more so, the right of return. And this is so even with Israel having granted a limlited right of return under a family reunification program. Still no deal. Why? Because Arafat did not want to be a martyr for peace. He does not want to end up like Sadat. With Nabil Shaath saying that implicit in the road map is the Palestinian right of return, is their any doubt that they are foreshadowing another break down exactly like what we saw the last time?

2. Out of the question. The world will turn on Israel the next day and Israel become even more of a pariah state than it is now.

3. International condemnation over Operation Defensive Shield, and it still didn't result in a total dismantling of the terror infrastructure. The terrorists have gone underground, and with each one that is killed, some 10+ civilians are injured. Without the hope for a better future, a new crop of terrorists will take their place.

4. Unilateral seperation involves facing the settlers. Perhaps they could be temprorarily jailed, assuming that Israel has the space for them. The wall is completed. And yes, rockets can fly over fences and then Israel still has to worry about the Israeli Arabs. However, they will be in a defensive position, once the occupation ends. They will therefore have a greater ability to defend themselves against attacks. IN addtion, Israel can take some additional land to secure itself starting around Netanya on down, including the most strategic hill locations. Israel can take land from the local Palestinians and offer them money in return for moving further out into the West Bank. Yes, Israel will receive an outcry from the world for this, but if it is done at the same time that settlements are abandoned, it will be more justifiable from a position of defense. If Hezbollah wanted to, they could probably lob over a few chemical warheads right now. At some point, it just doesn't matter how much land is salvaged.

5. Let's here them....

I'm ready to hash it out, and then afterward I want all your lazy internet hooked a$$es to work with me to send out a statement to as many news sources and political represenatives that we can. I will help work on the statement and provide all the e-mail addresses.

frizzer1

09-01-2003, 03:58 PM

I can't think of any workable solution.
To do that I would have to be able to look into the hearts and minds of the palestinians and all the arab states and even the muslims in the rest of the world.

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 04:08 PM

Option 6

Take all the other options off the table and raise the stakes of national survival up to the stratosphere, e.g. crush the terrorists utterly and then talk about the other 5 options.

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 04:11 PM

Until Israel pushes ALL of its chips into the pile and demostrates to the world they are willing to lose it all even to the point of national extinction no one will take them seriously and will take their negotiations for weakness. The world hates Israel. Get over it and move from a policy of strength. And they have to make it crystal clear that if they are going down then so are as many of those muhfukaz and they can take with them.

alexbmn

09-01-2003, 04:14 PM

ok number three has never been attempted. Operation Defensive Shield was a two week joke that left Hamas 100 percent intact.Unilateral separation can only be attempted after step three because otherwise it wouldbe a defeatist retreat. Anyway it doesnt matter .If Israel wants to survive as a Jewish state as it is it's raison d'etre it will have to remove the Arabs because in a few generations they will a majority. Not democratic not nice,no choice. By the way USA is already a good "binational",no, multinational state. No need for Israel to turn into Israstine with the pact of dhimmi intact.

humus_sapiens

09-01-2003, 09:31 PM

At this point in time we are talking about Israel's mere survival as a nation state (AKA Jewish National Home, promised to us by the League of Nations and Britain as the Mandate holder). The myth of "Greater Israel" is another Arabian fairytale to brainwash jihadees.

How do we survive in the neighboorhood where we are ostracized, in the world as ani-semitic and indifferent to Jewish blood as ever?

Whatever is the solution, it won't come from defeatist and confused Avodah. Unfortunately, Jewish leftists gave up on 2-millenia-old idea of returning to Zion. Whatever we do, we must talk from the position of strength, because we have all the rights, including moral and legal.

- Israel is a legitimate state, the other side is not, and it's not our fault. Blame those who started the war of 1948.

- Israel have absorbed Jewish refugees. The Arabs have rejected theirs. Too bad, but it's also not our fault and should not be our concern.

- Israel made peace every time when met serious partner on the other side. The Arabs made war after war and lost. It's pay up time, baby. If it is the losing side who gets the trophy, then return the territories... only after America returns the strip from CA - TX to Mexico and Russia returns Kaliningrad/Konigsberg to Germany, etc.

The first order of business is to eliminate the dead-end terrorists and destroy corrupt terrorist infrastructure. That will show both friends and the enemies, that we are DEADLY serious.

For the long term I am really in favor of Steve Metch's plan: for every attack, some pre-announced part of the disputed territory becomes ours forever.

BTW, the transfer should not necessarily be brutal and Nazi-style scene. I believe it can be compensated and humane. Populations get tranferred for less improtant reasons: dambs, roads, economics.

Equating Jews to Nazis is doubly offensive. Actually, the never-ending wars of all kinds: open, covert, guerilla/intifadah/terrorism, attrition, propaganda, boycotts, forced upon Jews, are attempts to finish the Holocaust. Israel is our best insurance against another round.

Of course, it would be nice to have secure borders from Mediterranean to Euphrates... Another globe, anyone?

Isiah 2:4

09-02-2003, 01:49 AM

If they withdrew and Hamas et al continued attacks and maybe with even bigger weapons then Israel could go in a completely destroy them. It would be a legitimate response in any ones eyes.

If attacks did continue after a military pull back from all of the territories, the world would see that it is not a Palestine they want, but a Muslim state in place of Israel, but with all the nice things israel has brought to them.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 04:12 AM

No no no. All that is, is a search for approval and you will never get it. You can't wait to be slaughtered in order to justify to the people who hate you and want you dead anyway that you're going to strike back. Israel needs to pursue it's own policy that serves it's own ends and ignore what the PA claims it will or will not do.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 04:40 AM

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enZone=Views&enDisplay=view&enPage=BlankPage&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Views^l92

Stand with Israel
By Jon Kyl August 31, 2003

Jon Kyl is a U.S. Senator from Arizona and a long standing expert on counterterrorism, defense and intelligence issues.

For a tiny country, roughly one-third the size of New York State, Israel has found itself at the center of some of the world's most difficult crises. It's a constant target of terrorist attacks. Its existence is often cited as the basis of tensions between Arab nations and the United States and, sometimes, even with countries in Europe. It's not unreasonable, therefore, for people to ask if Israel is really worth all the time and attention it's given.

No doubt many Americans are frustrated by repeated stories of failed efforts to reach a peaceful settlement between Israelis and Palestinians - with both sides blaming the other. But Israel has far more motivation to obtain peace in the Middle East than do its Arab neighbors, who support the Palestinians.

In fact, polls consistently show that an overwhelming majority of Israelis support the peace process and would make significant concessions to the Palestinians in order to achieve it. They don't want their children to be killed in suicide attacks while riding buses, or going to a disco, or shopping at a mall.

Still, it's hard to make peace with an entity - the Palestinian Authority - that condones terrorist attacks within your territory (the equivalent of America negotiating terms with Osama bin Laden). Or when your primary peace partner (until very recently Yasser Arafat) aids global terrorists and is allied with countries that refuse to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

By contrast, many Arab nations appear to lack any motivation to support the peace process, since criticism of Israel has proved an effective outlet for pent-up frustrations and resentment. Osama bin Laden became a late convert to the anti-Israeli chorus precisely because he understood how effective that rallying cry would be to his cause. Like so many before him, bin Laden blamed Israel (and its chief ally, the United States) for the misery and poverty that inflicts the Arab masses, and held Israel to blame for the chronic violence that infests the region. Much of the state-sponsored Arab media echo such claims, thus further inflaming the so-called "Arab street."

Of course, these claims are nonsense. Israel has been in existence for a little more than 50 years. Poverty, human rights abuses, and tyranny were firmly entrenched in the Arab world long before that. It was not Israel that encouraged Syria to invade its neighbor, Lebanon, or Saddam Hussein to invade its neighbors, Iran or Kuwait. Israel does not launch attacks targeted toward innocent civilians, though it does respond, as we would, to suicide attacks carried about against innocent Israeli citizens, including women and children.

But there is another reason why we must continue to stand with Israel. Israel, like the United States, represents something that our enemies cannot tolerate: a thriving democracy which, in Israel's case, is right in their midst.

Israel, in fact, is the only democracy in that region. It is the only Middle East nation that accords rights to women and elects its leaders by a true democratic vote. Israeli schools do not teach their children to root for the destruction of Arab countries, or compare the United States to Satan. The Israeli media is free to write and report what it wants. Israeli citizens can say what they think, can denounce their government policies, can state protests, can read and write whatever they please.

In short, Israel stands as a total repudiation of the practices of most every regime that surrounds it. To acknowledge Israel's right to exist, therefore, is to give legitimacy to a government that allows its people to live in freedom, in stark contrast to the oppression and persecution that many Arab citizens experience every day of their lives.

If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, the antagonism for Western values would remain. The United States, in fact, might be an even greater target of directed hatred than it is today. And many Arabs would continue to suffer under corrupt incompetent, or brutal regimes.

So it's in our interest to stand with Israel, just as it has stood with us. To abandon the Israeli people would be a concession to all those who hated the democratic values that they represent.

(Originally appeared in the Casa Grande Valley Newspaper The Enterprise)

Kapiti

09-02-2003, 04:46 AM

Communication - When you post some as challenging to the mainstream on this forum as the opening two posts you can call me an arse any time. :)

"If Hezbollah wanted to, they could probably lob over a few chemical warheads right now. At some point, it just doesn't matter how much land is salvaged" A very valid point. Does holding the land really make you more secure ?? Maybe in some small minority of areas but certainly mostly not at all.

There are many on this forum but fortunately only a small minority of Israelis who would not give up all the WB and G even if they really could be guaranteed peace and future security. The first question you should ask anyone who you ask to contribute to finding a solution is this question.

If someone says they would not be prepared to give up all the land then it will certainly make finding a solution that will keep that person happy so much more difficult. I would suggest if you are trying to brainstorm some solution the people who think this way will be a very negative influence on what ever ideas you are proposing. Finding a solution which maintains future peace and security is hard enough, let a lone a solution which caters for the extra desires of additional religious land ownership.

I am not suggesting that a final settlement must follow the 67 lines but rather any final settlement must negotiate from those 67 lines.

I don't see the importance of right of return as you do. I think also the international community would accept the impossibility or at least difficulty of this before they would accept that the land cannot go back to the 67 boundaries.

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 04:56 AM

Thank you for the invitation, Communication.

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
- We made peace every time we have met serious leader on the other side. The Arabs made war after war and lost. Pay up time, baby.

Sorry to burst your bubble, humus_sapiens, but Israel didn't rush to make peace whenever it met a serious Arab leader:
- In 1971, UN special envoy Gunar Yaring made several visits between Cairo and Jerusalem. He carried a peace proposal from the new Egyptian president, Anuar Sadat, to the Israeli gov't. The proposal included Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai in exchange for peace. This is the same agreement Israel signed with Egypt seven years later. Israeli PM Golda Meir turned down the proposal. Some historians say this decision caused the Egyptians to launch the Yom Kippur war, as Sadat saw no alternative to regain the territories he lost in 1967.

When Sadat was about to visit Jerusalem in 1977, he requested to meet with Meir. She was in the US at the time and was flown back to Israel on the same day Sadat came. When he met Meir, Sadat asked one question: "Why didn't you agree to my peace proposal back in 71?" Meir looked at him for a long time and then said "I didn't believe you were sincere"

- In 1985, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres met with Jordanian king Hussein in London. The two held secret meetings for one week. In the end, they signed the "London agreement" which stated that Israel would withdraw from the territories it took from Jordan in 1967, in exchange for peace. When Peres presented the agreement to the gov't, PM Shamir rejected it.

In this agreement, king Hussein accepted the role of official representative of the Palestinian people before Israel. I believe Hussein is infinitely better for Israel than anyone else Israel dealt with ever since. king Hussein accepted the "headache" of ruling and dealing with the Palestinians (Something Sadat was unwilling to undertake). king Hussein displayed in the past he is better suited than Israel in dealing with Palestinian terrorism. Up until London agreement, Jordanian gov't maintained official representation in WB. Jordanian gov't administrated the education and welfare systems in WB. After the rejection of the London agreement, Hussein closed all his offices in WB and ceased his involvement in the Palestinian issue.

- Israel didn't implement all the requirements it took under the Oslo agreement. Mainly a three phase withdrawal. In fact, Wye agreement from 1997 is just rescheduling of Oslo requirements which Israel failed to implement on time. and if you think Israel implemented Wye agreement – guess again. PM Ehud Barak negotiated a deal with Arafat that discarded Wye agreement in favor of pushing for the permanent agreement.

So you see: Israel does have bad credit history when it comes to diplomatic agreements, (just like the Palestinians).

On a general note, I wish to say I object to the historical view expressed by humus_sapiens and others here that Palestinians are blood thirsty monsters seeking to kill every single Jew and Israel only wanted peace and wouldn’t hurt a fly. In the twenty years between the 67 war and the first Intifadah, the Palestinians were relatively quiet, yet Israel made absolutely no serious attempt at resolving their problems. Israelis simply believed they can truly rule a foreign people forever. Just like the French believed in Algeria, the British in Ireland, the Belgians in Kongo, etc.

History shows us that in the vast majority of cases, it is an uprising of the oppressed that drives away the foreign empire. Governments simply don’t like to withdraw from occupied territories on their own initiative. They do manage to make up very creative excuses for remaining in place.

If the Palestinians didn’t start the first Intifadah in Dec. 1987, would Israel propose a partition of the land? would Israel make any proposal to solve the problem of 3+ million refugees living in impossible conditions under its rule? I don’t think so. Like humus_sapiens said, “its not our concern”.

According to the Oslo agreement, a Palestinian state was supposed to form in 1999. A year later, in 2000, the Palestinians are still negotiating with Israel about their state. I don’t say its all Israel’s fault and I don’t justify the second Intifadah and terror attacks. I just wish Israelis would come off their self-righteous view which blinds them from seeing and understanding the other side.

I believe this distorted, one sided view, the de-humanization of the other side and inability to understand the problems and concerns of ordinary people on the other side is the greatest obstacle in making progress. This is true for Israelis and Palestinians alike. The leaders of both sides, for their own agenda, only feed and intensify the distortion and blindness.

old-reb

09-02-2003, 05:12 AM

I seem to recall that when the Israelis armed the palestine police they used those same weapons against Israel and I read of many partrols where a Jew and Palestine went on patrol and only the Palestine came back, the Jew has been shot in the back.

I don't think Jews are without sin but the Palestine terrorist are far worse. They wage war on the civilians of Israel because they believe their enemys have no civilians.

old reb

Isiah 2:4

09-02-2003, 07:52 AM

Sorry Sharonbn, wasn't it Nasser who headed the 67 war, not Sadat? :confused:

old-reb

09-02-2003, 08:01 AM

King Hussein and Sadat are men of honor.

Arafat is a liar, and cheat, not a man to keep his word even for 30 seconds.

old reb

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Sorry Sharonbn, wasn't it Nasser who headed the 67 war, not Sadat? :confused:
It would be nice to know to which sentence you're responding.
I assume you mean "Sadat saw no alternative to regain the territories he lost in 1967". I meant "he" as an Egyptian, not as the president. anyway, if this is all you could say of my post, then you really shouldn't have bothered

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by old-reb
King Hussein and Sadat are men of honor.

Arafat is a liar, and cheat, not a man to keep his word even for 30 seconds.

So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

old-reb

09-02-2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

Egypt and Israel are at peace because Israel gave back the Sinai.

Any peace offering by Hussein that requires Arafat to keep up his part is no peace offering but surrender to death.

If Israel is to survive it must be able to defend itself. They can't depend on the kindness of Arafat to protect their peace.

Arafat is always attacking Israel and any weakness will be taken advantage of to kill more Israelis. The man is a hate filled racist out to exterminate Jews.

old reb

Isiah 2:4

09-02-2003, 08:34 AM

Sharonbn, I was just asking a question man!

Old-reb, it isnt just the sinai. Its also because America pays them 1.5 billion dollars of aid a year. Each. ;)

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 09:19 AM

Why do you personalize everything? Countries behave in accordance with what they think is in their national interest at the time. It has little if anything to do with personalities.

Mercury

09-02-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Communication
Ok, let's talk about our options here:

1. continue on with the road map in the hopes that we can reach an agreement with the PA.

2. transfer

3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

4. unilateral seperation.

5. Other suggestions.

4. Unilateral seperation involves facing the settlers. Perhaps they could be temprorarily jailed, assuming that Israel has the space for them.

Communication, I fully agree with you that the first three options are highly problematic (if not catastrophic). However, about the fourth... Look, I'm the last person who would sympathize with "Gush emunim", but jail them? We are not living in North Korea to jail 4% of our population. Knowing you I'm very surprised by this suggestion.

And yes, rockets can fly over fences and then Israel still has to worry about the Israeli Arabs. However, they will be in a defensive position, once the occupation ends. They will therefore have a greater ability to defend themselves against attacks.

In the modern times defence is no longer the best way of combat. In fact Israel is already largely on the defence.

Israel can take land from the local Palestinians and offer them money in return for moving further out into the West Bank.

Any palestinian who will agree to that would be killed.

IN addtion, Israel can take some additional land to secure itself starting around Netanya on down, including the most strategic hill locations. Yes, Israel will receive an outcry from the world for this, but if it is done at the same time that settlements are abandoned, it will be more justifiable from a position of defense.

As far as countries like France are concerned it doesn't matter much how large are the israeli concessions unless arab countries say they are big enough (=Messiah comes). Did their attitude to Israel change after the withdrawl from Lebanon?

If Hezbollah wanted to, they could probably lob over a few chemical warheads right now. At some point, it just doesn't matter how much land is salvaged.

You are right, the land by itself has a limited security value today. What does matter is the deterrent power. By unilateral withdrawl Israel signs an invitation for further attacks.

I'm sorry if I'm disappointing you by my reply. The reality here is disappointing also. I wish I knew a fifth way how to fix the problem, but I honestly say that I don't. Hope you'll find it eventually.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 10:04 AM

ha HA HA THE <edited by moderator> here has a very poor knowledge of his country's history. In fact he twists it around completely One can very easily forgive the Israelis for not trusting their enemies, for not wanting to relinquish 100% of the newly won lands to the enemy who had so frequently stated that "what was lost by force will be regained by force"And no it wasnt only the Sinai Sadat wanted, even in 1977 when he came to Israel he wanted Israel to give up everything apparently forgetting which side was victorious. And when he came to Jerusalem IT WAS GOLDA MEIR WHO ASKED HIM "WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG?" In fact right after the war Israeli leaders were saying that they are "waiting for the phone ring ", so peace negotiations may be started. Instead they got the "three no's'

hmm I wonder why would King Hussein ever need the Palestinians after they tried to overthrow him in 1970 and after he killed 30000 of them ?(yeah I admit I dream about the day Israel deals with the Palis insuch a manner) Oh yeah he needed something to destabilize his kingdom..

Israel didnt implement its agreements under Oslo? It gave the Palis 42 percent of the West Bank, 90 percent of Gaza ,armed them so they would have a police force, and instilled a deluded sence of peace and love for the enemy into its citizens. What did the Palis do? Ah they engaged in suicide bombing killing more people in next seven years then were killed in the previous 15.They indoctrinated their population into a death cult. They saturated their culture with Nazi like antisemitism.So both sides are equally to blame?

Oh by the way immediately in 1967 Israel summoned West Bank notables asking them about self rule.Palestinians had no idea about self rule, and those who lived outside the country totally opposed the idea. Then again in 198o Begin had plans for a Palestinian atonomous rule in some parts of the West Bank. They chose terrorism instead.Oh and by the way my deluded friend there was an uprising in GaZA in 1970 put down fairly brutally and quickly(just the way it should be) by the same Ariel Sharon back when he had balls.

By the way the first Intifada didnt force Israel to the negotiating table. It was arm twisting by the Americans in the Madrid Conference.

There was no Palestinian state by 1999 because the "piss process" wasnt working.A people who blow up children in buses dont deserve a state. Palestinians always wanted Palestine from "the river to the sea".And even when Barak tried to force the issue by total appeasement it still didnt work.

Anyway I dont care what our <edited by moderator> tells me in responce. I just needed to respond to the lies he posts here.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 10:50 AM

>
3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

You say this is catastrophic? It has to be catastrophic. It's the only way it works. The PA public front impresses the world with it's willingness to risk EVERYTHING to get what they want. That is, at the heart of it what the 'liberals' admire so much. "They must be right if they are willing to die for it."

What Israel has to do is very simple. It has to risk everything. Even it's survival to get what it wants and needs. It's the only way to gain any traction. It's the only way to make clear to the world how high the stakes are. The world hates Israel, and even her friends are sick of her. Half of Amercian Jewry today couldn't care less. So Israel has to increase the stakes and she has to mean it, seriously mean it.

Please don't mistake this for lefteward mamby pambying. Risking everything is the opposite of surrender and hoping for the best. Risking everything is not simply allowing all the Palestinians in to Israel and never shooting back and giving in to every demand and praying they don't kill everyone.

No risking everything means literally putting your money where your mouth is. It means risking any international, political, economic or military backlash. It means risking even the abandonment of the US. It means risking being truly alone in the world and fighting to the last.

The only thing PLO understands is being the last man standing. The only thing. What Israel must do and it must do it quickly is this:

1 Bang out a policy of absolutism.

Terrorism from ANYONE ANYWHERE FOR ANY REASON will be met with ferocious deadly force every single time. Since bombers kill themselves they will go after all the people who supported that operation and kill or arrest every single one down to the weeping mama holding the death videotape camera.

Israel must stay on message, only this message, this single message and bang it in over and over, a million times if need be. The PA is masterful at one simple message: "It's the Jews fault". Israel needs to repeat the same message over and over again even if no one is listening. "It's terrorism." The MFA should immediately mount a campaign to map every word of Bush's speeches about terrorism to Israel, line by line.

2 No negotiation - EVER.

There is no negotiating with a treasonous seditious violent murdering criminal gangs. Never. Not with Arafat, Abbas or Hamas or anyone else at any time for any reason.

3 All other items off the list until Israel says they are not off list.

No blackmail no extortion no prisoner exchanges no conferences. No incrementalism and no actions of any kind that can't be quantified. Any objection to that is met with a door in the face.

4 Rule of Law

If PLOistanian police can't get the job done immediately then the IDF will and the army is not a sharp knife when dealing with these things. People will get hurt and things will get broken. Either the PA does it or they are crushed. Anyone captured and convicted of assisting terrorism in any way is expelled from both Israel and any potential PA lands for eternity including all of their decendants. Violating this policy results in life imprisonment.

5 No land for peace - EVER.

No other issues on the table at all including the big three land, repatriation and Jerusalem at all until an undefined time in the future if ever. Anyone who can't accept that knows which way the borders are so pack for a long long trip. There is no right of return in fact the PA has no rights on Israel or Israelis at any time on any subject for any reason. Jerusalem will remain as is. The PA can build its capital in Ramallah or anywhere else. There will be no discussion of a two state, one state, merged state or any other variation on this until some time in the undefined future if at all. Any discussions that are held on this subject are nonbinding and subject to change at any time.

6 No expectations of performance.

Whatever any body be it the PA, Hamas etc. does, says, says they will do, is irrelevant and has no bearing on Israeli policy decisions or their execution. At no time will it be necessary to interlock with anything the PA says or does and the expectation is that the PA will no nothing. Whether they do nothing or not is their concern and has no bearing on the national interests of Israel or the policies or actions on those policies that further them. Conversely no performance of any kind will be expected or assumed by Israel to be carried out, begun or attempted by the PA or whatever Palestinian authority or authorities that claim governance at that time.

7 Armed militia

All Israelis living and/or working inside Yesha or near the line will be armed. All settlements will mount a militia that is accountable to itself, but administered and supplied by the IDF. Actions my the militia are considered to be military in nature in a war zone. Perimeters to Jewish conclaves in Yesha will be deemed free fire zones. People's militias armaments will include shoulder fired missiles and anti personnel mines to be deployed by the militias under their control in and around Jewish perimeters.

So you see what Israel has to do is raise the stakes sky high. For too long she has been dying because she is unwilling to risk dangerous chemotherapy. But we all live and we all die and slow strangulating failure is what she has now. If Israel is to survive it must be conclusive and final. If not, then not. But if not then they must bring it all down. Israel is already a pariah nation. The only way to change that is to change the perception from one of being the Red Coats to one of being the Minutemen. Israel and Jews are already hated. Making friends is nonsense and isn't going to happen ho matter how miserable you feel about them, you or anyone else. Israel has to risk its very existence to insure its survival. She has to be ready willing and able to die fighting or she will die in the dust.

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Communication
Ok, let's talk about our options here:

1. continue on with the road map in the hopes that we can reach an agreement with the PA.

2. transfer

3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

4. unilateral seperation.

5. Other suggestions.

OK, I would go for option #1. Mainly because I believe its the only viable solution.

Option 2 is out of the question. No one in modern history successfully displaced millions of people.
So the Palestinians are here to stay.

Option 3 - we are trying this for the last three years, with little success. PA is the most suited body to do this job. All we need is persuade them to actually do it.

Option 4 is very popular in Israel now. The defense wall is a step in that direction. but this is no long term solution, because:
1) The Palestinians will not see themselves binded to a solution imposed on them by Israel. This means they will feel its their "right" to continue terror attacks until a bi-lateral agreement is reached.
2) the defense wall, in its current plan, makes the lives of a lot of Palestinian civillians impossible. It separates villagers from their lands and it cuts through roads and pathways. The Palestinians will make the wall itself a target for attacks. I see breaching of the wall becoming the next popular news item in coming years.
So, a final permanent solution, imo, will only be reached by an agreement in which both sides will feel they got the best deal.

The roadmap does not state what that agreement will be, it only attempts to show a way for a cease fire and setup the right atmosphere so such an agreement may be reached. It will probably take longer than 2005 to see the end of the conflict, but the roadmap does indeed state what is required from both sides to get there.

I believe Abbas indeed wants to lead his people in the right direction. He needs first to shake Arafat off his back, and then he can demonstrate how he deals with the terror groups and other requirements set forth by the roadmap.

In another thread, I posted a news item (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3604) about the Pal gov't starting to make reforms in their education system. They also made some actions against the terror groups (sealed tunnels between GS and Egypt), so not all is black.

Communication, regarding Palestinian support of terror groups:
As I said before, public opinion is a changing thing, as is evidence from the last four elections in Israel. It is true that Palestinian society is less diverse and less dynamic in its political facet, but believe it or not, its not just Hamas, IJ, et al. Loud extremists exist on both sides, so does a silent majority. The majority of people on both sides want an end to the violent cycle of terror attacks and missile attacks and revenge and retaliation etc. They will support Abbas only if they see he has influence in Israel. This means that if Israel starts implementing the roadmap, public opinion will shift in Abbas' favor.

As I said elsewhere, it is expected that the terror groups will do their utmost to break the cease fire. For that, Israel gov't needs vision, persistence and courage to work with Abbas, until the terror groups will lose the support thay have.

I don't see any other way to solve this issue once and for all.

Communication

09-02-2003, 12:58 PM

wow! a lot of ground has been covered here. I will post something more later. I am wondering if anybody knows aproximately what the percentage is of people who actually respond when they are called up for reserve duty. From what I understand, the numbers were very high during Operation Defensive Shield.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by sharonbn
So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

Well sharonbn .. why don't you tell us what it says about Israel...
Or what you mean to say about Israel.

First you recite a one-sided histiry of the Peace agreements that looks like something from electronicintifada,
Then want to imply Isreal is Dishonorable or doesn't want Peace.

Then you use your censorious moderator Button, Again, on alexbmn.

1. What the Hell are you doing here?
2. Why in God's name would anyone let a petty Chomskyite Anti-Israeler be a moderator here,
especially in light of the Abuse of that position already?

abu afak

09-02-2003, 01:35 PM

Mil

09-02-2003, 01:37 PM

Posted by Abu Afak:

First you recite a one-sided histiry of the Peace agreements that looks like something from electronicintifada,

You would be suprised but most of the political processes that deal with both Arab/Israeli and Pal/Israeli issues are all mostly pretty much pro-Israeli. Even the daunted 242 was designed in Israel's favor.

Then want to imply Isreal is Dishonorable or doesn't want Peace.

Israel is a country in the ME and acts accordingly.

1. What the Hell are you doing here?

Given that Sharonb is an Israeli and not some over-the-sea Zionist I would personally take the credability of his opinion over yours anytime.

2. Why in God's name would anyone let a petty Chomskyite Anti-Israeler be a moderator here,
especially in light of the Abuse of that position already?

This is a forum with rules. Deal with it.

Now - no fights please :) I don't want to be ignored

abu afak

09-02-2003, 01:43 PM

Mil.. aren't you the guy I straightened out who had 242 all wrong, after saying he knew it all?
(and who argued futily for more than a page)

Then didn't you deny/Lie that you had even "addressed" it?

Isn't that trashing you took from me the reason you're sticking your nose in now?

;^Þ

(If you can't remember... here:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3355&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 )

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
1. Withdraw to the 1967 Borders as the Arabs want.

2. Have an Adusted 1967 line as Resolution 242 foresaw, inluding
mountain ridges of Judea and Samaria.¹

3. Transfer.

No simply take all three off the table. It's ludicrous to discuss anything while you worry about what the Palestinians, might, might not, say they will, say they will not no.

Any unilateral action that acceeds this is insane. If you're going to act unilaterally then act to your own advantage. The world isn't going to give Israel a big fat kiss because it does anything. The world will just have another set of demands and requirements for Israel and none for the PA. What does it take for you people to understand that?

Holy moly look at Honest Reporting. Half the newspapers in America don't even call the last bus bombing terrorism and they barely restrain their outright glee.

It's not about land - don't you get that. It's about destroy Israel and no more. That's it. Destroy Israel. Boil it all down to that. It's not about borders 500 meters on this side of this line or the other. It's not about how many PA flags get to fly over how many blocks in Jerusalem. It's not even about how many underclass Palestinians are going to be frogged marched into Israel (because let's admit it that's what it would take - there would be riots and those Pals would be killed and chased off.). It isn't about any of that. To the Pals it's about what it will take and how many of them have to die to destroy Israel. Period.

Don't you understand that 242 is just the opening gambit? It's just the first non-reversible demand. The next one is after that and the other and the other and the other.

Do you delude yourselves into pretending that even if Israel retreated to 1948 borders and the attacks held up that anyone would care? Let alone NOT condemn them for self defence?

That's what it is, delusional. And if you thought about for longer than it takes to blow the foam off your lattes you'd understand that.

Mil

09-02-2003, 02:01 PM

Posted by Abu Afak:

Mil.. aren't you the guy I straightened out who had 242 all wrong, after saying he knew it all?
(and who argued futily for more than a page)

Apparently you considered that "straightning out."

Then didn't you deny/Lie that you had even "addressed" it?

Actually I did not deny or lied or anything. If you read those posts I didn't say much.

Isn't that trashing you took from me the reason you're sticking your nose in now?

No. I just don't like the way you address certain posters who do have a non-extremist opinion.

ÆÎÏÀ
;^Þ

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No simply take all three off the table. It's ludicrous to discuss anything while you worry about what the Palestinians, might, might not, say they will, say they will not no...........

Medio ???

None of the above 3 are above or below Negotiation.

We are discussing possible solutions.

What are yours, assuming you don't want to wipe out the Arab World?

Mil

09-02-2003, 02:05 PM

What are yours, assuming you don't want to wipe out the Arab World?

So it appears that yours is to wipe out 1 billion people.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Mil
What are yours, assuming you don't want to wipe out the Arab World?

So it appears that yours is to wipe out 1 billion people.

Mil .. that's an idiotic conclusion (as usual)..

and kindly stop harassing Me/the-Thread, while I and others are trying to have a serious discussion.

Thank you

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by sharonbn
So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

Sharon, it says as you say that Israel has made a lot of boneheaded decisions in the past & will in the future.The quality of the governments Israel has had and has now certainly don't fill me with great confidence.
But I think you are being a bit unfair here. You're not seriously suggesting the old "both sides are at fault" argument, are you?
Surely to some extent, but equally?
I do agree that had the first intifada not happened, Israel would likely have accepted the staus quo & done nothing to help the palestinians. But it did happen and Israel is committed to peace with them now, no?
And Golda meir imo had it right.Israel should have been very wary of any arab leader at that time.And the fact that eventually she ( Israel) did put her trust in Sadat was a great leap of faith and a major risk too, with the sinai gone, wasn't it? So Why the criticism?
Don't know about you, but I'm not an oracle.

( Just reminded myself that I bought that crummy stock & lost a fortune :( )

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 02:20 PM

I just told you. Twice.

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly. Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons. And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

Assassinate Arafats's wife and 'child' in Paris, go after his mother in law too. End all payment transfers to the PA and block all Pal movement back into Israel at every check point. Not delay it - end it. If Abbas can't get anything done then indict him as a collaborator and put a price on his head. Declare open season on every idenitified Hamas operative wherever they are and whomever is standing next to them at the time. End all prisoner transfers forever and end all family visits forever or until their release. Tell the Haredi that they have to get with the program or they lose subsidies. Remove any Arab Knesset member with ties to the PA or to any other terrorist organization . Stop calling rock and bomb throwing 16 year olds childen and arrest all rioters down to the age of 13. Target Hamas funerals for missile strikes and announce it ahead of time.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I just told you. Twice.

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly. Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons. And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

Assassinate Arafats's wife and 'child' in Paris, go after his mother in law too. End all payment transfers to the PA and block all Pal movement back into Israel at every check point. Not delay it - end it. If Abbas can't get anything done then indict him as a collaborator and put a price on his head. Declare open season on every idenitified Hamas operative wherever they are and whomever is standing next to them at the time. End all prisoner transfers forever and end all family visits forever or until their release. Tell the Haredi that they have to get with the program or they lose subsidies. Remove any Arab Knesset member with ties to the PA or to any other terrorist organization . Stop calling rock and bomb throwing 16 year olds childen and arrest all rioters down to the age of 13. Target Hamas funerals for missile strikes and announce it ahead of time.

Assassinate his wife??
Kidding, right?
Anyway,lets say the rest will work..2 questions.Would the israelis themselves agree with your proposals. and
what if the US cut off all support including funding and hence Israel would have not a single friend left in the world? You think Israel could carry on as if nothing happened?

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I just told you. Twice.

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly. Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons. And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

So your solution is no Palestinian state- Transfer-- or "Proceed to and take Baghahd" or as far as possible and Kill as many Terrorists and the countries that house them as possible.
.. or er.. everyone near them and their relatives.
(We certainly have both sides of the spectrum moderating here)

I didn't think there were that many people here to my 'right' ;^)

I already said that no matter which solution is taken, fighting terror has to be done anyway.
I've even said Sharon hasn't gone far enough or reacted quick enough to the Intifada.

I've also kept my "Transfer- Get Used to it" string going here for 9 months and have argued that as well.

So you haven't Told me any solution -- just a method on the way to a solution...

whenever you're ready.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
1. What the Hell are you doing here?
2. Why in God's name would anyone let a petty Chomskyite Anti-Israeler be a moderator here,
especially in light of the Abuse of that position already?

He is neither a chomskyite nor an anti-israeli.
He wants an end to the violence just as much as anyone else here.
He is entitled to his opinions.
And if he is following the rules he has every right to be a mod here.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
He is neither a chomskyite nor an anti-israeli.
He wants an end to the violence just as much as anyone else here.
He is entitled to his opinions.
And if he is following the rules he has every right to be a mod here.

I disagree.

She has put up many Anti-Israel posts here.
She has used the Moderator button in a personal and indiscriminate way and caused MichaelC to leave the board.
(Recent Strings to that effect with many posts have been removed/Censored)
After 120 Posts here you presume to know something you just don't.

MGB8

09-02-2003, 02:54 PM

One point - we don't know that Hezbollah has any usable chemical weapons. More importantly, they KNOW that Israel would RE-INVADE lebanon if that happened....and they can't yet hit Haifa....

However...the Pal Arabs ARE NOT the Lebanese (well, actually they are...but they claim not to be)....They have shown a willingness to push the limits MUCH MORE than Hezbollah has....

Communication...you still never answered my question - what happens the day after - if the PLO does exactly what it did in Oslo, take the gains and then continue attacking, while claiming that "its not them...its the terror organizations" - or even if that was fact, and it was simply an unwillingness to stop the organizations, ala Pakistan?

Answer the question, communication.

BTW _ WE NEVER went all out to destroy the terrorist organizations. NEVER. We were stopped by Oslo and by "international opinion." But slowly, slowly, the gloves are comming off.

We have NOT tried to eliminate the terrorist infrastructure. Anyone who says we has IS LYING. BLATANTLY.

We need to do it - now.

Defensive shield - it was A START.....but still limited...we did not go after the HIGH LEVEL people....we distinguished between "political" and "military"...and when we did go after them, btw....TERRORISM WAS SOON REDUCED! First there would be a slight uptick (as with Iraq after the deaths of the Saddam boys...) and then a calming (which has yet to happen in Iraq....but shows signs of happenning..plus, the US hasn't been as effective as Israel was ... too big a territory...)

I've already presented my plan, too...

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR ON TERROR...take back ALL of the WB and Gaza and arrest or kill (preferably the former) all leaders/members of Hamas, Jihad, and Fatah...

(2) Set up a Pal Arab state...sovereign in the Gaza..hopefully purchase a part of the Sinai to add to this...create a "Palestine Proper"

(3) Autonomy in the WB, with Israeli military control but Arab elections and local control/taxes...and voting in Palestine proper elections too...

The future of the WB part of this Palestine is put on hold for 20 years...limited immigration/incentives for Arabs to leave, no expulsion, however (unless minor terrorists or terrorist support)...but, given Arab Birth rates...some of the land will eventually need to become Arab sovereign.

Communication

09-02-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by MGB8

Communication...you still never answered my question - what happens the day after - if the PLO does exactly what it did in Oslo, take the gains and then continue attacking, while claiming that "its not them...its the terror organizations" - or even if that was fact, and it was simply an unwillingness to stop the organizations, ala Pakistan?

Answer the question, communication.

BTW _ WE NEVER went all out to destroy the terrorist organizations. NEVER. We were stopped by Oslo and by "international opinion." But slowly, slowly, the gloves are comming off.

We have NOT tried to eliminate the terrorist infrastructure. Anyone who says we has IS LYING. BLATANTLY.

We need to do it - now.

Defensive shield - it was A START.....but still limited...we did not go after the HIGH LEVEL people....we distinguished between "political" and "military"...and when we did go after them, btw....TERRORISM WAS SOON REDUCED! First there would be a slight uptick (as with Iraq after the deaths of the Saddam boys...) and then a calming (which has yet to happen in Iraq....but shows signs of happenning..plus, the US hasn't been as effective as Israel was ... too big a territory...)

I've already presented my plan, too...

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR ON TERROR...take back ALL of the WB and Gaza and arrest or kill (preferably the former) all leaders/members of Hamas, Jihad, and Fatah...

(2) Set up a Pal Arab state...sovereign in the Gaza..hopefully purchase a part of the Sinai to add to this...create a "Palestine Proper"

(3) Autonomy in the WB, with Israeli military control but Arab elections and local control/taxes...and voting in Palestine proper elections too...

The future of the WB part of this Palestine is put on hold for 20 years...limited immigration/incentives for Arabs to leave, no expulsion, however (unless minor terrorists or terrorist support)...but, given Arab Birth rates...some of the land will eventually need to become Arab sovereign.

I'll try and answer your questions in my next post. I'm not sure I can answer them to your satisfaction and if not, then go ahead and ask me again.

Communication

09-02-2003, 04:06 PM

Based on what I've read so far and my own thoughts on the matter, this is where I am presently at in this thread:

1. Medio, I was asking about how many reservists respond to the call for duty for the reason that what I am trying to ascertain is where the Israeli mindset is. Regardless of those numbers, I think common sense tells me that when it comes to ideology, the Palestinians have the Israelis beat. Despite the fact that Palestinians stand a chance to gain an independent state in at least a portion of their historic homeland, they are raised to believe that they have nothing left to lose. Add to that, the fact that religion has become increasingly infused into their political struggle, and you have the one-two punch. If they acquired better weapons, we wouldn't have the luxury of having this conversation. Israelis, on the other hand, are at a different stage in their national development. They have built their nation, they are tired of war, and they are at the point where they want to mold what is already in place.

I also read today that Morocco is seriously interested in normalizing relations with Israel again. Countries like Morocco, Jordan and Egypt have a better chance of instituting reforms in their countries and creating the type of economic interdependence with countries like Israel that would lead to genuine peace in the future. Unlike countries like Saudi Arabia, Ian and Iraq, they have to reform their societies because their future success is dependent on human capital rather than oil.

2. In terms of unilateral separation, I'm now leaning against that, mainly because as some have pointed out, it would only be perceived as a victory by the terror groups, as was the case with Lebanon.

The article that Sharonbn pointed to about how the PA is beginning the process of reforming their educational system is also interesting. As far as the PA is concerned, they should have been doing this all along. They never even took the inflammatory caricatures off their website, something that could have been easily done with no excuses. But they didn't. It wasn't until the IDF responded to the latest successful suicide mission that the PA actually started to follow through with some of their commitments under the road map. That means that the road map alone and the US commitment to an independent Palestinian state with provisional border by 2004 will not by itself be enough to get them to act if they think that they have any opportunity to create an excuse. But it also shows that when pressed, they will act. So how do we get them to act?

A. I don’t know whether the territories that Israel handed over to the PA are still under PA control, but if they are, perhaps Israel can demand that the PA dismantle the terror infrastructure in those territories. At the same time, Israel will continue to dismantle the terror infrastructure in those areas where it retains control. If the PA succeeds in an area, then Israel will hand them another, at the same time dismantling any settlements that impede contiguous areas that come under PA control where terror has been rooted out.

B. I have no idea how to deal with the fact that there still appears to be a divide between the expectations of both sides in terms of a final settlement, especially in terms of the Palestinian expectation of a right of return. Should that be left until the end? On one hand, I would hate to see us get close to the end only to see negotiations fall apart for the same reasons why they fell apart last time. On the other hand, perhaps if the process is managed better than before, the Palestinians will have a more viable state at that point, and thus more incentive to accept compensation and a right of return to a Palestinian state. I’m not sure.

C. We really need to work on a more effective hasbara strategy. Israel’s greatest strength, the fact that they have an independent media and thus the means for self-criticism, is also their greatest weakness when it comes to influencing world public opinion. More often than not, when someone engages me in a debate over Israel, they use articles from Israeli news sources and human rights groups to prove their case. Nothing like this exists on the Palestinian side. People do not understand the inner-workings of the PA and so they have very little information to go on in terms of accessing PA accountability to both Israel and the Palestinian people. By default, the criticism falls more heavily on the side that we do know about.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
Assassinate his wife??
Kidding, right?

No.

Anyway,lets say the rest will work..2 questions.Would the israelis themselves agree with your proposals.

Maybe they won't have a choice.

and
what if the US cut off all support including funding and hence Israel would have not a single friend left in the world?

So?

You think Israel could carry on as if nothing happened?

They will die in my lifetime at this rate.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
So your solution is no Palestinian state- Transfer-- or "Proceed to and take Baghahd" or as far as possible and Kill as many Terrorists and the countries that house them as possible.
.. or er.. everyone near them and their relatives.
(We certainly have both sides of the spectrum moderating here)

I said take all those other things off the table and crush terrorism utterly. And then begin anew and put whatever issues you want back on the table at that point. Its about control. I couldn't care less about Baghdad. I care about Yesha. When and if terrorism abates then Israel can drag their bloody cracked skulls to the bargaining table.

I didn't think there were that many people here to my 'right' ;^)

I'm the pacifist in my family. My wife makes me look like Martin Luther Gandhi.

I already said that no matter which solution is taken, fighting terror has to be done anyway.
I've even said Sharon hasn't gone far enough or reacted quick enough to the Intifada.

Yeah but all this half measure garbage is waste of time and lives. Sharon needs to be Judah Maccabee and he needs to smash them until they give up, die or leave. Then that's over we can talk about rule of law.

America will abandon Israel soon anyway. America is sick of Israel and American Jews are too. Look around kids, you can only get maybe 50% support in your own communities for Israel. Even Israel is sick of Israel.

So you haven't Told me any solution -- just a method on the way to a solution...

That's right. They tried unilateral negotiations for 50 years. So enough of that. If crushing terrorism takes 3 years then it takes three years. Then as I said they can revisit a solution. You don't need to hold out a carrot. It's like what we talk about Rule of Law. That's fine. Here is the law: we will crush anyone who wages war. That's the Law, no go deal with that and bang your heads against the Wall until one of them breaks.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Communication
C. We really need to work on a more effective hasbara strategy. Israel’s greatest strength, the fact that they have an independent media and thus the means for self-criticism, is also their greatest weakness when it comes to influencing world public opinion. More often than not, when someone engages me in a debate over Israel, they use articles from Israeli news sources and human rights groups to prove their case. Nothing like this exists on the Palestinian side. People do not understand the inner-workings of the PA and so they have very little information to go on in terms of accessing PA accountability to both Israel and the Palestinian people. By default, the criticism falls more heavily on the side that we do know about.

No, that's reactive and responsive. You need to attack attack attack attack attack and then escalate. Israel needs to flatten the world with one message.

It's terrorism. Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism. Over and over and over and over a million million times. They need to bang this message and they need to point to it in response to every and any criticism, point, diatribe, PA spokesmodel, over and over and over. Don't even asknowledge the critic or anything he or she is saying, Don't even engage in any debate with what they say. Debate is for debate club. Hasbara failed because it wants to 'dialog' with haters. Waste of time. We need a screeching mob. We need to congregate outside ISM meetings and shout them down over and over and over and what's the response to their complaint?

It's terrorism.

We need bullhorns, we need to block entrance to Palestinian meetings just like the technique right to lifers use. We need to have a loud uncivilly disobedient yelling mob outside whatever 'official' PA missions there are in the west 24 hours a day and we need to be carted off to jail. We need to start boycotting universities and we need to start arm twisting our boosters to stop funding them. We need to sue each of the states that supports any state university that condones terrorism. We need to sue private universities under Federal hate crimes laws. We need to report each ISM and similar meeting to Congress and to the Department of Homeland Security as a national terrorism risk. We need the names of every foreign national in those organizations and we need to get them deported or imprisoned or officially disappeared.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
I disagree.
After 120 Posts here you presume to know something you just don't.

Not just here. I've been reading Sharon's posts at ummah.com for some time.
They more or less call him a zionist murderer & a muslim hater over there.
So between that and being called a chomskyite here, I would suggest he probably deserves to be called a moderate, or at least a centrist.
and BTW HE is male not female...I made that same mistake because of his name a while ago.

As to the incident with Michael c..I didn't follow all of that.I said that IF he followed the rules he has the right to be a mod here. If he abused the rules, then obviously he shouldn't.

Communication

09-02-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No, that's reactive and responsive. You need to attack attack attack attack attack and then escalate. Israel needs to flatten the world with one message.

It's terrorism. Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism. Over and over and over and over a million million times. They need to bang this message and they need to point to it in response to every and any criticism, point, diatribe, PA spokesmodel, over and over and over. Don't even asknowledge the critic or anything he or she is saying, Don't even engage in any debate with what they say. Debate is for debate club. Hasbara failed because it wants to 'dialog' with haters. Waste of time. We need a screeching mob. We need to congregate outside ISM meetings and shout them down over and over and over and what's the response to their complaint?

It's terrorism.

We need bullhorns, we need to block entrance to Palestinian meetings just like the technique right to lifers use. We need to have a loud uncivilly disobedient yelling mob outside whatever 'official' PA missions there are in the west 24 hours a day and we need to be carted off to jail. We need to start boycotting universities and we need to start arm twisting our boosters to stop funding them. We need to sue each of the states that supports any state university that condones terrorism. We need to sue private universities under Federal hate crimes laws. We need to report each ISM and similar meeting to Congress and to the Department of Homeland Security as a national terrorism risk. We need the names of every foreign national in those organizations and we need to get them deported or imprisoned or officially disappeared.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/336100.html

Perhaps protests should be organized in New York, SF and the European countries to suuport this, or at least write your UN reps supporting Israel's position?

I believe this is the right e-mail address to contact JOHN NEGROPONTE: usa@un.int; fax: 212-415-4053

and for more background on how the UN:

"The Kirkpatrick Commission" by Allan Gerson

"A Mandate for Terror: The PLO at the UN" by Harris Schoenberg

____________________

I realize this is a side point, but I saw the article and decided to post it here. I don't mean to detract from the thread.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Communication
Perhaps protests should be organized in New York, SF and the European countries to suuport this?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/336100.html

Years ago my cousin chained herself to the railing on the steps of the Soviet Embassy to protest the treatment of Soviet jews.She was arrested & carted off to jail.
But it got publicity..and it did work..the soviets usually let a few jews out after each event.
Seems to me tho, that the american/canadian jewish community is much too apathetic to show up to one of those demonstrations in significant numbers.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 06:32 PM

The venue really doesn't matter. We don't care what resolutions get passed. The UN IS RACIST MURDERING GARBAGE. The message to them is the same.

It's terrorism. Terrorism Terrorism.

Get loud and get ugly at the UN, at the PA 'mission' wherever that is, in Washington DC, at the EU Parliament in Brussels. If a Pro Palestinian mob shows up to bullyboy it, beat them down. If the ISM lurches out to counter protest shout them down, if they want to mix it up, club them. And after that, break into their offices and trash them. It worked for Father Berrigan it can work for us.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 06:35 PM

So medio..

I'm still waiting .

Crush terror. .. Yeah ... and

What's the solution?
What platform/territory shall Israel operate from?

3 Years from now/... 5? 10?

We agree on crushing terror.. but you're angrily (if also righteously and with justification) having a fit and refuse discuss solutions.

Communication

09-02-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
Years ago my cousin chained herself to the railing on the steps of the Soviet Embassy to protest the treatment of Soviet jews.She was arrested & carted off to jail.
But it got publicity..and it did work..the soviets usually let a few jews out after each event.
Seems to me tho, that the american/canadian jewish community is much too apathetic to show up to one of those demonstrations in significant numbers.

what are you talking aboot? :D

Over 100,000 Jews marched in support of Israel last year in Washington DC. And if I didn't succeed in killing off all support from the Christian Right in the Gibson thread, we have all the support we need. It can be done. These are things that we can do. What I really want to acheive in this thread is some way to alleviate the constant battle and confusion that I go through every day over where I stand with all this. Ultimately, I stand by Israel and so whatever course of action they take, I am for them. I also realize that I'm just a very small person in the scheme of things, but I want to hash this out with everyone here so that I then can be clear in my purpose when I do whatever I do to promote Israel in my daily life.

Communication

09-02-2003, 06:40 PM

Hey Medio....

I happen to know someone who knows where Arafat's wife lives in Paris....you can PM me and I will see to it that the fat man walks alone.... ;)

abu afak

09-02-2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
Not just here. I've been reading Sharon's posts at ummah.com for some time.
They more or less call him a zionist murderer & a muslim hater over there.......
If you tell the truth and are truly a Zionist they'll throw you off Ummah.
I should know.. I was chucked .. Twice
So I'm not impressed with anyone who can kiss enough @ss to stay there.

....As to the incident with Michael c..I didn't follow all of that.I said that IF he followed the rules he has the right to be a mod here. If he abused the rules, then obviously he shouldn't. [/B]
Yes.. well I did follow the incident with MichaelC, a True friend of Israel (and mine), who had his posts systematically and abusivey 'edited' by sharonbn in a personal dispute that should have been defended like all the rest of us have to defend.. fairly

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 06:56 PM

Are you a lawyer? Do you work with the law? Here are the basic assumptions you need to believe in if you do:

There is a rule of law that is meaningful to everyone involved.

Consequences are imposed, whether they are embraced or not.

Without both parties involved you're making pronouncements not law.

You don't introduce bargaining issues unless and until all of the above issues are clearly understood.

My point is this - none of those other issues are meaningful unless and until the PA or whomever can be dragged back to the table because they have other options and no strength to resist. We could just as easily be talking about teaching them to fly.

So plan is this - break them down to the point where developing ANY solution is possible. Before that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Keep the real plan in your back pocket, whatever it is; withdrawl, wall building, haggling with the French. Who really cares. That's part two. But none of that can happen until the PA knows that the repercussions for terrorism will be astonishingly terrible. They will not budge until Israel brings the fight back to them. We know the Roadmap was DOA, I said this months ago. There is no Roadmap, never was. So the real plan is this.

Step 2
Disrupt the PA infrastructure both military and civil. Offer a partial pull back in phases contingent on no terrorism. Right of return is gone. Forever. Golan is off the table forever. Saba is off the table forever.

Step 3
Move outposts back to lines closer to the Green Line in areas contiguous with the major Jewish settlements. Abandon Gaza.

Step 4
PA 'connection' between Gaza and Yesha is contingent on Jewish 'connection' between Jewish areas such as Kiryat Arba. One for one.

Step 5
Any terrorism freezes the progress for an indefinite time.

Step 6
The Wall stays unless Israel says it doesn't.

Step 7
The PA capital can be anywhere but Jerusalem, Ramallah perhaps.

Step 8
Regional issues stay regional, water for example.

Step 9
The PA is free to declare independence at some predetermined date in the future after the previous 8 conditions are met.

Step 10
Palestinians are barred from entry into Israel in perpetuity, and likewise.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 07:02 PM

That's why I often start with 'Transfer' as a proposal and why I've kept the string intentionally on the First page of the "Israel-Arab Conlict" page for 10 months. (check)

No, I'm Not a Lawyer ... just a good negotiator..
Often called 'far right' myself-- and certainly have moved so in the last few years.

Transfer is the Smart position to take from a Negotiation standpoint.
You can't start with the 1967 borders.

So what do you want? Dream wise.. . The Jordan River?

Yes, yes,.. I know... be tough... I agree.

Kindness is weakness with these Pigs... but you must have a goal.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 07:07 PM

My Dream? Israel, the Israel we all understand.

The Jordan. Of course. We would never have any battles at all if we had started from that position. We would never have an attempt to rationalize resettlement of Jews if there were 2 million souls in Yesha instead of 280,000.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
My Dream? Israel, the Israel we all understand.

The Jordan. Of course. We would never have any battles at all if we had started from that position. We would never have an attempt to rationalize resettlement of Jews if there were 2 million souls in Yesha instead of 280,000.

Finally!

thx... and a natural, as well as Biblical border it would be too.
It would have been easy as a continuation/final push of the '67 war.
Now it's a difficult proposition politically, though American Evangelical Christians and Politicans (Lott, DeLay, etc) are increasingly for it.

We recently talked about a 'Transfer with compensation' scenario here someplace.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 07:51 PM

what, SharonB, cant stomach being called a Palestinian spokesman? But thats what he is.He recycles old Palestinian lies that at best two sides are morally equavalent at worst israel is always to blame.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 07:55 PM

"nobody has ever transferred millions of people to another territory?" LOL LOL LMAO. How about millions of Sudeten Germans after WWII? How about India and Pakistan? How about Turkish and Greek Cypriots?

Mil

09-02-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly.

Okay. You do that. There are Palestinians living in US go kick some Arab butte.

Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Lets gas them.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons.

Kill little children too. That would score Israel some PR points.

And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

Yep. You got it. The only way Israel can remain on top, Med, is by remaining CIVILIZED. As soon as Israel crosses the line it would be measured with the such of Hussein or Assad or Qaddafi and the rest of the dictator gang. Are you willing to do it?

Assassinate Arafats's wife and 'child' in Paris, go after his mother in law too.

That's good.

End all payment transfers to the PA

Now it's something. Political pressure is better then killing.

and block all Pal movement back into Israel at every check point. Not delay it - end it. If Abbas can't get anything done then indict him as a collaborator and put a price on his head.

Lets say a million dollars.

Declare open season on every idenitified Hamas operative wherever they are and whomever is standing next to them at the time.

I thought you wanted full terror against the Pals?

End all prisoner transfers forever and end all family visits forever or until their release. Tell the Haredi that they have to get with the program or they lose subsidies. Remove any Arab Knesset member with ties to the PA or to any other terrorist organization . Stop calling rock and bomb throwing 16 year olds childen and arrest all rioters down to the age of 13.

In Stalin's USSR a child was criminaly responsible at the age of 12 and could have been executed under the full legal premise of the law. Lets make Israel the second USSR.

As sad as it is the only thing Israel can do is to negotiate.... there were tougher times, however, a political solution is far more noble then any murder - especially genocide - given that there is a chance. And there is a chance and as long as there is an opportunity for diplocy Israel will jump in. That's the only reason Israel has survived and prospered through the last 55 years. Israel's strength lies in the only factor - it's a civilized nation!!!!

Mil

09-02-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by alexbmn

"nobody has ever transferred millions of people to another territory?"

Nobody has physically done it - sharonb is right. The closest was Stalin's transfer of Chechnya in 1944-45 where over 750,000 people were put on trucks and trains and physically moved.

LOL LOL LMAO. How about millions of Sudeten Germans after WWII?

They were refugees who were encouraged to leave but not physically tranferred.

How about India and Pakistan? How about Turkish and Greek Cypriots?

Sure - why would not Israel do the same in the year 2003?

Communication

09-02-2003, 09:14 PM

So let me get this straight. All my suggestions are off the table now and instead you want to go straight for the jugular with the end goal being all of Yesha, knowing that with such a plan, Israel will never be able to normalize relations with her neighbors? Do you love the land so much that you are you willing to commit THEM to fighting the Arabs forever, their best and their brightest occupied with fighting for their survival rather than curing cancer and launching their astronauts into space?

Why are you trying to turn us into the Palestinians, Mediocrates? Is this how you want to fight? Are you a Jew or are you an Arab? You seem to prefer Arab rhetoric. Ask me any question about Jewish history, Zionism, the Torah, Talmud, Tosefta, and if I don’t know the answer off the top of my head, you can be certain that I know where to look. I’m saying this not because I feel the need to establish my credibility with you, but as evidence of my commitment to the Jewish people. I have all the ideology I need because I know what’s at stake. I know that America is growing tired of Israel, as are the so called Jews in the United States, and even Israelis. I see, as Alfred stated so eloquently, that “Israel is turning into a paper tiger that can die of a thousand cuts.” But in the big scheme of things, it really is just a little struggle. Turn around and you will see that the Jewish people played a prominent role in many of the major struggles involving western civilization, most of them far worse for Jews than the present situation. It’s not a punishment. It’s what we signed up for. We are a small people destined to advance human affairs. That’s why they call us “Israel.” Of course, most Jews don’t know this and when they figure it out, they want out. So let them go! Do you understand what I’m telling you? The goal is not Yesha. And we don’t need to act like Arabs to try and beat them at their own game. Let them be consumed by hatred but not us. If you sincerely believed what I am saying then you would also believe that we will win this one too.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 09:24 PM

transfer is a population exchange like the ones I mentioned.By the way Sudeten Germans left as voluntarily as did Jews from Arab lands. And whats the difference between the 1948 and 2003? Arabs didnt want Jews in the Land of israel then and they dont weant them there now. They targeted civilians back then and they still do it now.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Communication
what are you talking aboot? :D

Over 100,000 Jews marched in support of Israel last year in Washington DC. And if I didn't succeed in killing off all support from the Christian Right in the Gibson thread, we have all the support we need. It can be done. These are things that we can do. What I really want to acheive in this thread is some way to alleviate the constant battle and confusion that I go through every day over where I stand with all this. Ultimately, I stand by Israel and so whatever course of action they take, I am for them. I also realize that I'm just a very small person in the scheme of things, but I want to hash this out with everyone here so that I then can be clear in my purpose when I do whatever I do to promote Israel in my daily life.

Aboot huh? Watch out or i'll set my pet beaver on ya. :)
As to the apathy I mentioned,That was impressive and you could feel the mood on the "street" then. This is now..and it just isn't there. Do you disagree?
My feelings about Israel are complicated. We are right..simple as that..we have the right to exist as a nation. We have the right to defend ourselves.And considering what has been going on there for the last 50 years, Israel has shown unbelievable restraint and compassion in their dealings with the arabs.
But..I won't behave as the arabs do and I hope Israel never descends to that level.
For me the ends do not justify the means.If we lose our morality here we will be them....and these aren't just words. I sincerly believe that.
We have to be able to honestly justify our actions to ourselves, not to the rest of the world.
If we can't do that, what will we become of us as a nation?

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
If you tell the truth and are truly a Zionist they'll throw you off Ummah.
I should know.. I was chucked .. Twice
So I'm not impressed with anyone who can kiss enough @ss to stay there.

What was your name at Ummah? Did I know you there?
I haven't posted there in about a month and haven't decided if I will go back or not.....it's always the same there.
But Sharon did identify himself as a zionist there, and I certainly did....The only thing I didn't do was slander the religion of Islam..which I wouldn't do anywhere ( unless I really lost my cool).
When I was there I stood up for israel and for judaism which made me rather unpopular...but I took that as a compliment...and I only got banned once,so far anyway.

cerulean

09-03-2003, 12:53 AM

I don't think it's necessary to see hatred as being behind discussion of transfer strategies. It's more a question of finding a logical solution for Israel's survival. Then again, some might argue that logic is rarely the sole driver behind the best creative geopolitical solutions.

Mediocrates

09-03-2003, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Okay. You do that. There are Palestinians living in US go kick some Arab butte.

Did I say that or are you posing?

Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

See above.

Kill little children too. That would score Israel some PR points.

As opposed to what? You think 10 people out of a hundred give a damn Israel lives or dies? You'd be overestimating.

Yep. You got it. The only way Israel can remain on top, Med, is by remaining CIVILIZED. As soon as Israel crosses the line it would be measured with the such of Hussein or Assad or Qaddafi and the rest of the dictator gang. Are you willing to do it?

Yes I am. Civilized is what you got you where you are today. Whining and moaning that no one likes you, that no one's fair.
BTW, look around. (Other than Saddam, who's gone but still admired or protected by large parts of the west and Europe), the world generally has a neutral to positive view of Qaddafi and Assad. Sure we all accept that they're not such nice guys, but Libya is going to lose it's isolation status soon and today the only country that shuns Syria is the US. So don't pretend you're the world's moral compass.

The only line is in your head.

That's good.

Imagine the reaction to a car bombing in Paris that takes out Arafat Ville on the Rue de Terroristes. Culpable deniability is the key. But the real point is not the terror effect. The point is to disrupt the PA. Arafat and his 'wife' are apparently the only two people in the PA who can sign checks. Take one out, take out her mother who is Arafat's senior PR advisor as well. Make it look like a gas leak or a plane crash.

Now it's something. Political pressure is better then killing.

No, in adjunct to.

Lets say a million dollars.

No, 10. It's called bounty hunting for bail jumping. Pay someone that money to drag him back for arrest and trial for warcrimes.

I thought you wanted full terror against the Pals?

Maybe you don't read the whole sentence. I have no idea.

In Stalin's USSR a child was criminaly responsible at the age of 12 and could have been executed under the full legal premise of the law. Lets make Israel the second USSR.

No let's arrest 13 year olds and then decide whether to try them as adults for violent crimes like every other civilized modern goddamn country on earth. Or we could send you to give them all big hugs and stuffed panda bears.

As sad as it is the only thing Israel can do is to negotiate....

You have a decade, tops before there is no Israel at this rate.

there were tougher times, however, a political solution is far more noble then any murder -

Survival is noble. But if you wish I'll say Yizkor for you and your nobility. It's not murder it's war. And all the flippy flappy I'm a loveable liberal please stab me isn't going to change that one scintilla.

especially genocide

The thing that people like you all have in common is that you put words in my mouth and then claim moral superiority over them. But it's the left that always raises genocide as an issue. I'll put on my Freud hat for a sec and charge you with secretly desiring that as an outcome.

Israel's strength lies in the only factor - it's a civilized nation[/B]

So is America and they fought a revolution. They spent almost a decade fighting the English army to a stalemate. But none of that really matters does it? You want it both ways and in that respect you're the mirror image of the PA. You want instant painless victory because you think your intentions are pure and you are good people. Tell that to the young soldiers, little more than children themselves who you send out to be ground down day after day in a pointless unending battle with no strategy, no goals and no end. You think my way is the end of your society? Wrong you're already getting there on your own.

Mediocrates

09-03-2003, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by Communication
So let me get this straight. All my suggestions are off the table now and instead you want to go straight for the jugular with the end goal being all of Yesha, knowing that with such a plan, Israel will never be able to normalize relations with her neighbors?

Yes.

Do you love the land so much that you are you willing to commit THEM to fighting the Arabs forever,

WTF do you think they're doing now? Jaw dropping force is what will end this but it needs to be focused in terms they can understand. Take the fight to the enemy on their own ground and prosecute a brush war with the same randomness and brutality waged against them. Do this for as long as it takes to crush them then you can talk about all the other things you're dying to give up to placate them.

Why are you trying to turn us into the Palestinians, Mediocrates? Is this how you want to fight? Are you a Jew or are you an Arab?

I'm a survivor and survivors are not nice people. Now is the time for ruthless singlemindedness. Imagine Rudy Giuliani with an army and a cause.

You seem to prefer Arab rhetoric.

It's what the world listens to. No one cares how righteous the Israelis imagine themselves to be.

I’m saying this not because I feel the need to establish my credibility with you, but as evidence of my commitment to the Jewish people.

I have no doubt. But even Jael had to drive a tent stake through that bastard's head. Even Deborah had to kill people. You be my concience, I'll be your Judah Hasmonean.

Do you understand what I’m telling you?

I understand that people are willing to lose but they're not willing to die.

The goal is not Yesha.

The goal is to apply as much pressure so that Israel can back away as far as it wishes from that on their own terms.

And we don’t need to act like Arabs to try and beat them at their own game.

It's not 'acting like Arabs.' It's using every tool in the drawer without hesitation or regret. It's setting a policy that states simply - if you hit us, no matter how slight we will take whatever action we need to pummel and punish you without hesitation. We will do it randomly and we will ratchet up the tension until your lives truly are miserable. Either fix this problem however you wish or we will do it with brutal eficiency.

Let them be consumed by hatred but not us. If you sincerely believed what I am saying then you would also believe that we will win this one too.

It's not hatred. It's the antithesis of hatred. It's pointing to the same message over and over and over and over and over until they either get it or die. It's not even about 'scope' as some here have accused me. It's about opacity and intent. Be as ruthless as it takes and as indifferent to their complaints as they are. For 4 decades the Palestinians have gained credibility where no other terrorist gang in the world has because of two simple things:

They have nothing to lose
They have a single message

-It's almost messianic on its own. This is precisely what Israel must do.

danholo

09-03-2003, 07:11 AM

Medio:

I'm a survivor and survivors are not nice people. Now is the time for ruthless singlemindedness. Imagine Rudy Giuliani with an army and a cause.

I don't really know what the f@#$ you're on. You're ideas are getting more radical every day - or I missed something. You're "solutions" are starting to look more like those of Hitler: "Only the strong survive."

minusthejihad

09-03-2003, 07:38 AM

I personally find Medio's opinions on this matter refreshing.

My whole life my parents told me "you are a Jew, your people are Jews, we have to stick up for each other, because no one else will stick up for us."

Then I'd go to school and get jumped.

Why didn't any of these American Jews I went to Sunday school with stand up for me, help me out? Why? Because they're parents wanted them to act civilized. But what it made us look like was weak.

And that's how we look now. "What? Oh, the local Imam said that he wants us dead?" "So, they're uncivilized, everyone knows that, we won't be killed" Its this false belief that the rest of the world will see the way we act, supposedly civilized, and then respect us more for having the ability to hold back. This is the same reason Jews get beat in the streets of France.

No one cares, they're too busy watching soccer or football. These Americans here STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND what it needs to take in order to truely live in security. They think that there will be no Septrember 11ths. 9-11 was just the beginning, and every single day Israelis are faced with total destruction.

You people think that people notice Israel's civility? Read the news. Not a single mention of the stabbings, the shootings, the attacks on Israelis. Just "suicide bombing" then "Israeli response". No one here knows the difference, they see 2 peoples fighting endlessly and they stop caring who is right or wrong. What they need to see is one group win and the other lose, then revisit it in 10 years, after peace.

What are ya'll going to do for the next 10 years, ramble on about the "solutions"? While Israel's economy is destroyed and the Arab population overtakes the Jew's? Why not act, every single day, instead of hypothesize.

I'll tell you, if I saw those 9-11 posters for a commemoration event here, I'd drive up to Howell, Michigan, a hotbead for KKK and Nazi sympathisers and post them all over with the proper addresses and maps on how to get there, and then watch the action. Pitting my enemies against each other (Iran-Iraq style) and smile broadly.

Sorry for the rambles.

Communication

09-03-2003, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Medio:

I'm a survivor and survivors are not nice people. Now is the time for ruthless singlemindedness. Imagine Rudy Giuliani with an army and a cause.

I don't really know what the f@#$ you're on. You're ideas are getting more radical every day - or I missed something. You're "solutions" are starting to look more like those of Hitler: "Only the strong survive."

Hitler, no; a zealot, maybe. We are dealing with an implacable enemy that misconstrues Israeli concessions for weakness. Just look at the PA’s latest statement on their website:

In an official statement issued Monday, published by Palestine News Agency (WAFA), the Palestinian leadership stressed that such Israeli practices against the Palestinian people are intended at sabotaging all international underway peace efforts, including the road map peace plan, to achieve peace in the region.

The Palestinian people, despite such aggression, would never give up their legitimate rights including the Palestinian refugees’ right to return to their homeland, the statement pointed out.

http://www.ipc.gov.ps/ipc_e/ipc_e-1/e_News/news2003/2003-09/006.html

I propose that if the PA insists up front on making a Palestinian right of return their holy cow, that we also insist up front that Jerusalem is ours. It is ours based on the fact that it is our holiest site; it is ours for strategic purposes because Jerusalem cannot practically be divided, it is ours because the PA has proven from experience that they are incapable of safeguarding holy sites for both Christians and Jews, as evidenced most recently by the destruction of Joseph’s tomb during the current intifada, which was subsequently rebuilt as a mosque.

The Jewish people, despite such aggression, will never give up our legitimate rights, including the Jewish right to our undivided capital.

minusthejihad

09-03-2003, 07:53 AM

Or how about more simply:

The Jewish people of Israel will never give up the right to stop negotiations with terrorists or their supporters and unequivically use force as a means to dismantle the current terrorist infrastructure.

Why negotiate or pretend to under fire? Why?

I'm not impressed. I've always thought it was our intelligence and rationality that had made us so successful. Where is it now?

danholo

09-03-2003, 08:16 AM

I was a little fast as slapping Medio as a "Hitler". But that "only the strong survive" kind of talk only actually reminds me of Hitler.

However - I do find Medio's opinions refreshing with a little humor too. Oh yeah, I know he's not a Hitler.

sharonbn

09-03-2003, 08:36 AM

I fear the discussion is starting to deteriorate into name-calling.
As a rule of thumb, I suggest that calling a person ‘Nazi’ or ‘Hitler’ is taboo.

First of all, no Jew should ever be called that, for obvious historical reasons. You may proclaim someone’s opinions as radical or extremist, but comparing them to Hitler is nothing more than provocation.

Everyone on this forum is entitled to their opinion, as long as it is expressed in a rational calm manner and is not intended to incite hate or provoke flame. I ask people here to refrain from labeling others with all kinds of adjectives. Please express your opinion on the idea, not the person.

Second, you need to understand that common use of ‘Nazi’ or ‘Hitler’ in discussions trivializes these concepts. The Nazis and Hitler are one unique event in human history, unparalleled by any other period/event before or since.
There were other racist and Fascist regimes in history but none can be matched in scale of actions and coherence of ideals of the Nazis.
The Nazis and Hitler belong to a sphere on their own, incomparable to any other idea/nation/period. Only this way we can maintain the historical significance of the era.

danholo

09-03-2003, 09:00 AM

I know. I'm sorry, Medio. :(

Mediocrates

09-03-2003, 09:04 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Medio:

I'm a survivor and survivors are not nice people. Now is the time for ruthless singlemindedness. Imagine Rudy Giuliani with an army and a cause.

I don't really know what the f@#$ you're on. You're ideas are getting more radical every day - or I missed something. You're "solutions" are starting to look more like those of Hitler: "Only the strong survive."

You need to read aloud what you just wrote. Else you will wake up soon and wonder where your country went. Either way: by slow societal breakdown, apathy and economic and political problems, or the quick stab of opening the gates and calling for a Palestinian state. Every 'agreement' you make for them is another step from which they will make another demand.

Let me ask you this then. How long do you give inertia a chance to work? 5 years? 8? How many times can you afford to take one step forward and one step back? How long do you think the rest of the world will put up with it? I can tell you now point blank that if there is an anti Republican backlash in next years' election cycle you may lose your last friend. There aren't enough of us left. Now it remains to be seen if you can separate politics from reality and whether you would see it losing your only friend as a good thing or not. It may be that you see America's turning her back on you as a political advantage to you that would get Likud out and Labor back in power. But you'd better be very careful what you wish for. Or at least happy with a country that has effectively given up on steering its own destiny and policy. Because that is what you will have.

Me Radical? Damn right, you can never be too radical. Your enemies agree with me.

Mediocrates

09-03-2003, 09:09 AM

BTW I don't take offence at what any of you call me.

To me, anger management means you don't break your hand.

Mil

09-03-2003, 09:12 AM

Posted by Minus:

I personally find Medio's opinions on this matter refreshing.

My whole life my parents told me "you are a Jew, your people are Jews, we have to stick up for each other, because no one else will stick up for us."

Then I'd go to school and get jumped.

I never got "jumped" may be because I live in Chicago?

Why didn't any of these American Jews I went to Sunday school with stand up for me, help me out? Why? Because they're parents wanted them to act civilized. But what it made us look like was weak.

Be strong. Start a "strong" group. Join the IDF.

And that's how we look now. "What? Oh, the local Imam said that he wants us dead?" "So, they're uncivilized, everyone knows that, we won't be killed" Its this false belief that the rest of the world will see the way we act, supposedly civilized, and then respect us more for having the ability to hold back. This is the same reason Jews get beat in the streets of France.

History is full of racial prejudices some which you as a Jew and as minority don't care to look at.

No one cares, they're too busy watching soccer or football. These Americans here STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND what it needs to take in order to truely live in security. They think that there will be no Septrember 11ths. 9-11 was just the beginning, and every single day Israelis are faced with total destruction.

Go join the FBI.

You people think that people notice Israel's civility?

What people will notice is Israel's uncivility if such occurs.

Read the news. Not a single mention of the stabbings, the shootings, the attacks on Israelis. Just "suicide bombing" then "Israeli response". No one here knows the difference, they see 2 peoples fighting endlessly and they stop caring who is right or wrong. What they need to see is one group win and the other lose, then revisit it in 10 years, after peace.

Following WWI when France and Britain were demanding on reparations and full scale revenge on the Germans America proposed civility. At the time no one listened, France and Britain got their revenge, and then WWII took place. Revenge will not lead anywhere..... it never did.

What are ya'll going to do for the next 10 years, ramble on about the "solutions"? While Israel's economy is destroyed and the Arab population overtakes the Jew's? Why not act, every single day, instead of hypothesize.

Act. Grow a beard, get yourself a nice Jewish girl, go to the Yeshiva, may be get circumcised if you already not, engage in Torah studies and start making Jewish babies!!!! Lots of them.

I'll tell you, if I saw those 9-11 posters for a commemoration event here, I'd drive up to Howell, Michigan, a hotbead for KKK and Nazi sympathisers and post them all over with the proper addresses and maps on how to get there, and then watch the action. Pitting my enemies against each other (Iran-Iraq style) and smile broadly.

And.... what's next?

Sorry for the rambles.

Too much emotions, lots of rhetoric, all little action..... Why don't you start by getting to Israel first. You know how those Israeli Jews look at us America Jews? Like we are a bunch of rich idiots who are only good for money and words who only visit Israel on those beautiful all inclusive trips to the Holy Land on a Hillel ticket - outside of that there is nothing else we can offer to them. At least Sharonb is in Israel and at least he speaks for the Israelis and not some over-the-sea Zionist.

Us, American Jews, and Israeli Jews are living in two different places. They are Israelis and we are Americans; we are two different cultures, two different languages, two different life-styles, all is different but the common heritage and religion. Deal with that.

sharonbn

09-03-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Too much emotions, lots of rhetoric, all little action..... Why don't you start by getting to Israel first.

ahm... you know what they say, mil, put your money where your mouth is...

minusthejihad

09-03-2003, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Minus:

I personally find Medio's opinions on this matter refreshing.

My whole life my parents told me "you are a Jew, your people are Jews, we have to stick up for each other, because no one else will stick up for us."

Then I'd go to school and get jumped.

I never got "jumped" may be because I live in Chicago?

Why didn't any of these American Jews I went to Sunday school with stand up for me, help me out? Why? Because they're parents wanted them to act civilized. But what it made us look like was weak.

Be strong. Start a "strong" group. Join the IDF.

And that's how we look now. "What? Oh, the local Imam said that he wants us dead?" "So, they're uncivilized, everyone knows that, we won't be killed" Its this false belief that the rest of the world will see the way we act, supposedly civilized, and then respect us more for having the ability to hold back. This is the same reason Jews get beat in the streets of France.

History is full of racial prejudices some which you as a Jew and as minority don't care to look at.

No one cares, they're too busy watching soccer or football. These Americans here STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND what it needs to take in order to truely live in security. They think that there will be no Septrember 11ths. 9-11 was just the beginning, and every single day Israelis are faced with total destruction.

Go join the FBI.

You people think that people notice Israel's civility?

What people will notice is Israel's uncivility if such occurs.

Read the news. Not a single mention of the stabbings, the shootings, the attacks on Israelis. Just "suicide bombing" then "Israeli response". No one here knows the difference, they see 2 peoples fighting endlessly and they stop caring who is right or wrong. What they need to see is one group win and the other lose, then revisit it in 10 years, after peace.

Following WWI when France and Britain were demanding on reparations and full scale revenge on the Germans America proposed civility. At the time no one listened, France and Britain got their revenge, and then WWII took place. Revenge will not lead anywhere..... it never did.

What are ya'll going to do for the next 10 years, ramble on about the "solutions"? While Israel's economy is destroyed and the Arab population overtakes the Jew's? Why not act, every single day, instead of hypothesize.

Act. Grow a beard, get yourself a nice Jewish girl, go to the Yeshiva, may be get circumcised if you already not, engage in Torah studies and start making Jewish babies!!!! Lots of them.

I'll tell you, if I saw those 9-11 posters for a commemoration event here, I'd drive up to Howell, Michigan, a hotbead for KKK and Nazi sympathisers and post them all over with the proper addresses and maps on how to get there, and then watch the action. Pitting my enemies against each other (Iran-Iraq style) and smile broadly.

And.... what's next?

Sorry for the rambles.

Too much emotions, lots of rhetoric, all little action..... Why don't you start by getting to Israel first. You know how those Israeli Jews look at us America Jews? Like we are a bunch of rich idiots who are only good for money and words who only visit Israel on those beautiful all inclusive trips to the Holy Land on a Hillel ticket - outside of that there is nothing else we can offer to them. At least Sharonb is in Israel and at least he speaks for the Israelis and not some over-the-sea Zionist.

Us, American Jews, and Israeli Jews are living in two different places. They are Israelis and we are Americans; we are two different cultures, two different languages, two different life-styles, all is different but the common heritage and religion. Deal with that.

Sharonbn does not speak for my family in Israel, that's fo sure.

What are you saying Mil? American Jews can't do anything to help out Israelis?

Second, you and I can act against terror where we currently live. This isn't just the Israeli's fight, we have terrorists here, in our country trying to cause us harm as well. Especially to Jews like you and I.

I can't join the FBI, wouldn't be able to deal with all of the rules. But believe me I have thought about it and other organizations.

And I do plan on having several children.

Unfortunately, none of you answers, whether potentially helpful or patronizing, aren't solutions that would work with me in my current state of affairs, so I ask you, please answer this question again, without the attitude and really know how I can help you and I as a people, that face extinction everyday:

What can I, a non-rich Russian-Jewish American do within the law and reason to help Israel and the Jewish people, rather than bitch and moan about what happens around us everyday?

danholo

09-03-2003, 09:38 AM

Medio:

Because that is what you will have.

No! I don't want that! What must I do?

I'm a survivor! I think.. - But I won't leave others behind!

Me Radical? Damn right, you can never be too radical. Your enemies agree with me.

And who are my 'enemies'?

sharonbn

09-03-2003, 09:53 AM

danholo,
your sig caught my eye - what do you mean by it?

danholo

09-03-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
danholo,
your sig caught my eye - what do you mean by it?

Because of all the differences that tear us apart we should examine the similarities that could bring us together. - and there are other similar explanations for that sig.

Just a bit of my infentile wisdom.

sharonbn

09-03-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Because of all the differences that tear us apart we should examine the similarities that could bring us together.

Just a bit of my infentile wisdom.

me like it :D

danholo

09-03-2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
me like it :D

Thanks. :) It's nice to hear, for a change, that someone likes what I have to say.

Mediocrates

09-03-2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Medio:

Because that is what you will have.

No! I don't want that! What must I do?

I'm a survivor! I think.. - But I won't leave others behind!

Me Radical? Damn right, you can never be too radical. Your enemies agree with me.

And who are my 'enemies'?

You can put it in quotes if you like but the PA, its supporters, the so called radical liberation movements, American sympathizers with PA inspired violence and the far far left here and abroad are your enemies. They don't even pretend otherwise.

danholo

09-03-2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
You can put it in quotes if you like but the PA, its supporters, the so called radical liberation movements, American sympathizers with PA inspired violence and the far far left here and abroad are your enemies. They don't even pretend otherwise.

You forgot the "far far right".

alexbmn

09-03-2003, 10:21 AM

Revisionist Historians who fabricated Israeli history live in Israel, so does Amira Hass and Gideon Levy and so did Israel Shahak. i guess that made them automatically right ?

Mil

09-03-2003, 10:28 AM

Posted by Minus:

Sharonbn does not speak for my family in Israel, that's fo sure.

Most of my family is in Israel as well and I don't know too many of their views.

What are you saying Mil? American Jews can't do anything to help out Israelis?

I did not say that. All I said that it is not our right to tell them what to do. We can assist them in what they do, we can provide them with resources, we can give them political legitimacy but in no way should we be the decision makers of their actions. They know best.

Second, you and I can act against terror where we currently live. This isn't just the Israeli's fight, we have terrorists here, in our country trying to cause us harm as well. Especially to Jews like you and I.

How exactly are you planning to do that? Organize a Jewish anti-terror group at the local JCC?

And I do plan on having several children.

Good. The more the marrier.

Unfortunately, none of you answers, whether potentially helpful or patronizing, aren't solutions that would work with me in my current state of affairs, so I ask you, please answer this question again, without the attitude and really know how I can help you and I as a people, that face extinction everyday:

Nobody is facing extinction!!!! Are you crazy? Show me the idiot who banged into your head that Israelis are facing an extinction? Or Jews for that matter? Hell more people were killed during 9-11 then Jews and Pals during the entire 2 and a half year of the Intifada. Hell 350 Jews died during 9-11 that's about half killed in Israel.

What can I, a non-rich Russian-Jewish American do within the law and reason to help Israel and the Jewish people, rather than bitch and moan about what happens around us everyday?

Tons. Travel to Israel, buy Israeli products (currently there are quite a few in supermarkets), buy Israeli government bonds (very profitable if you can afford them), make donations to IDF or Magen David or JUF or whatever, - the hell join the IDF if you can, become a local politician, participate in your local - state - national elections, organize marches, go out to participate on forums (internet or otherwise) - there is tons of stuff you can personally do. I give IDF $100 every month you can do it through the WEB using a credit card where any donation would do from a $1 to whatever plus any one-time donation you make for Israel or Jewish causes if over $75 is completely tax-deductible. Tons of stuff.

Mil

09-03-2003, 10:34 AM

Revisionist Historians who fabricated Israeli history live in Israel, so does Amira Hass and Gideon Levy and so did Israel Shahak. i guess that made them automatically right ?

Chomsky, Finkelstein and the rest of the gang.... live in US. Who cares. How many people in the States we have that write conspiracy theories on anything the government does? Tons. Hell we even have movies and popular sitcoms devoted to 100% government conspiracies, historical failures, national embarrassments, and the likes..... It's a normal part of any Democratic, civilized, pluralistic society and I really hope that Israel is such a society. Truth will never change even if the perception of it might.

old-reb

09-03-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by danholo
Because of all the differences that tear us apart we should examine the similarities that could bring us together. - and there are other similar explanations for that sig.

Just a bit of my infentile wisdom.

The sheep should love the wolf?

Palestine Imams preach and chant hate day and night against Israel. What good is it to love the killer? Maybe you could have a happy passing on.

Use your infentile wisdom on the Palestines and you will be able to bring about peace.

old reb

humus_sapiens

09-04-2003, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
Sorry to burst your bubble, humus_sapiens, but Israel didn't rush to make peace whenever it met a serious Arab leader

Israel made peace with Egypt and Jordan. Sinai, the territory 3 or 4 times of today's Israel lands was given away. If that's not making peace, what is?!

Who would expect Israel to "rush"? Her neighboors have consistently proven that they cannot be trusted. Sharonbn, I am wondering, what's your agenda? No country is perfect. You are definitely biased, and your criticism os often destructive rather than constructive.

Let's start from the beginning. Every single country of Galut oppressed, persecuted, expelled or simply murdered their loyal Jewish citizens. Moreover, the Jews were often squeezed between this state anti-semitism and their yesterday's long-time neighboors, suddenly turning against them. What's the legal term for "hate crime plus hope to acquire material gain, minus fear of adequate punishment"?

The whole point of restoring Israel was for this horror would not happen again.

Unfortunately, even after proving that Jews make good thinkers, workers and warriors, too many even today still have galutnik mentality...

old-reb

09-04-2003, 05:06 AM

#

LOUIS RENE BERES (Ph.D., Princeton, 1971)

"...people who feared violent death as the greatest evil were bound to appease their enemies, hence would eventually suffer violent death at the hands of those who regard [their own] violent death as a gateway to paradise".

------------------------------

Living in a world that wants to destory you requires that you sharpen your mind and body just to live.

What can you do? Hate? Hate sickens the body and mind and shortens the life and makes life miserable.

Fear? Living in Fear is destructive too.

Surrender just assures your quick demise.

Are the Israelis doing the best that can be done. They stand straight and strong, they don't cry like babies, and they don't scream hatred like Muslims do.

Nobody knows the best response to hatred but Israel should know better than the rest of the world because the wrong response could be the last response.

In the USA I live free and without fear of anyone except some person gone mad. My greatest danger is the automobile; it killed 43,000 last year including some relatives.

old reb

danholo

09-04-2003, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by old-reb
The sheep should love the wolf?

Palestine Imams preach and chant hate day and night against Israel. What good is it to love the killer? Maybe you could have a happy passing on.

Use your infentile wisdom on the Palestines and you will be able to bring about peace.

old reb

You missed the point. Don't you see not that you're only focusing on the differences? Not all Palestinians are evil you know. And hate preaching can be stopped.

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 06:17 AM

That's an entirely different problem. You don't start with love thy neighbor and then figure out how to leverage that into statecraft. You wage statecraft first and then, if it suits each and every individual on a case by case basis, you are free to sing kumbya.

Even Shimon Peres said "You don't sign peace treaties with your friends."

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 06:21 AM

sharonb - Israel didn't have to rush to make peace with anyone. That's bargaining from weakness not strength and it was Begin who got the Egyptians to sign.

When will [you, your country] learn that you don't offer, you negotiate? And if that means you have to get up and leave the table with nothing, so be it.

danholo

09-04-2003, 06:35 AM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
That's an entirely different problem. You don't start with love thy neighbor and then figure out how to leverage that into statecraft. You wage statecraft first and then, if it suits each and every individual on a case by case basis, you are free to sing kumbya.

Even Shimon Peres said "You don't sign peace treaties with your friends."

But still the other side sees the other as "evil". This is the problem. As long as the other side is perceived as "evil" there can be no negotiations in the first place.

SteveMetch

09-04-2003, 07:14 AM

old-reb

09-04-2003, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by SteveMetch
6. Peace or Land (Every Murder in Israel Results in one Sq Mile of Land Taken from WB or Gaza).

Murdering Stops = Peace
Murdering Continues = No Muslims in WB or Gaza

The problem with the Middle East is that its full of Muslims. The foundational teachings of Islam are incompatible with the modern world. Any atempt to make it compatible will cause it to not be Islam.

Until the world comes to grip with this fact we will forever be in conflict.

Hello Steve,

I see both points as equally important:

1)foundation of Islam incompatable with modern world

2)Until the world comes to grip with this fact.

Even my live in English girlfriend favors the Palestines but she is so brain washed that I could never change her mind. If I could not effect her then how would I change the world?

If you watch BBC you will see how they use propaganda instead of looking for truth. It is so easy to just believe the propaganda.

Last night they went on and on about a Iraq family that had lost a family member during the war to take Iraq. My girlfriend was almost in tears about the family. To me that is propaganda: It appeals to the emotion rather than to the intellect.

I really like (6) then they would know the price of murder and turn the tables on them.

old reb

minusthejihad

09-04-2003, 07:52 AM

Yesterday,

BBC's headline on the web said:

"Israel strikes at Lebanon"

Maybe the story mentioned why, but if someone did not read it, all the see is Israel attacking another country for no reason. It should of said:

"Israel destroys Hezbullah missle battery firing from Lebanon"

Ignorance is bliss, and even more blissful for the haters to prey upon.

old-reb

09-04-2003, 08:20 AM

Hello Minus Jihad,

It is true that world news media is as much of a problem as the Muslims themselves.

Michael,

on point (6) I would change it to read that for every Jew killed then x number of Muslims would be expelled from Israel; no emotion just a cold fact and make sure the blame is correctly placed on the murder. That would also help the following problem.

Here is a quote from an article:

Recently I have become aware of the danger of Arab overpopulation.
In 20 years the Arab population of Israel will exceed the Jewish
population. Since there are zero chances for peace, there is a real danger
of second Holocaust: extermination of 5-6 million Israeli Jews. If peace is
not achievable, and if Arab hatred is unquenchable (and it looks that way),
nothing but the most brutal measures can change the flow of things.
And if Israel cannot take care of the current pathetic "intifada",
how in the world is it going to handle that problem?

old reb

danholo

09-04-2003, 08:24 AM

minus,

That caught my eye yesterday as well. What slanted and misinformed reporting. Makes me sick.

Nobody even wonders why Hizbullah fires anti-aircraft "shells" at Israeli towns. Those AA-guns could never hit an IAF warplane even if their lives depended on it. They intentionally aim them at an angle that would hit Israeli soil and people say "they retaliated because of Israeli violation of Lebanese airspace".

What bull@#$%. And the gullible fools repeat the same mantra: "Jews are evil!"

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 08:27 AM

Never show weakness, By Shmuley Boteach

Sep. 4, 2003

It seems entirely appropriate that Israel's 30th commemoration of the Yom Kippur war should be sandwiched between the 40th anniversary of Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech and the 40th remembrance of the assassination of JFK.

In the 1960s the charisma of JFK, the speeches of MLK, and the stunning military victories of the IDF against armies promising genocide gave hope to the world that the forces of darkness could be defeated.

Since then, while admiration for King and Kennedy have entered the stratosphere, the reputation of Israel has crashed to the ground. While Kennedy and King are hailed as international icons, Israel has arguably become the most reviled nation on earth.

The fall began with the Yom Kippur War, for it was then that Israel forgot that its survival was directly linked to the awe it carried as something almost supernatural, a country that was anything but ordinary.

Pulitzer-Prize winner Theodore White wrote that no insult was greater coming from the mouth of JFK than "He's a very common man," or "That's a very ordinary type." Amid his suffering from innumerable and crippling ailments, Kennedy cultivated an air of boundless energy and superior mystique.

Likewise, while being one of the most marked men on earth, Martin Luther King famously declared that he "was fearing no man." He even included himself in a handwritten list of the 10 greatest figures of the 20th century.

Over the same period, however, Israel has made itself pedestrian. To be sure, Machiavelli's advice that it is better to be feared than loved was dismissed by Bertrand Russell as "a handbook for gangsters." But Israel went to the opposite extreme, compromising any sense of awe in an almost desperate gambit to be loved. It clamored for acceptance at virtually any cost, hunkering for legitimacy even if it endangered its citizens, and it sought peace even if meant trading away its holiest places.

No longer on a moral pedestal, even Israel's tourism advertisements today highlight the country's warm beaches and great nightlife rather than it being the place where Abraham walked and Christ taught.

Weakness was the legacy of the Yom Kippur war. Gone were the breathtaking victories against overwhelming armies that stunned the world. In its place were fickle leaders who knew, several hours before, that Israel faced certain attack on the afternoon of October 6, 1973, but held off eviscerating the stacked-up Egyptian and Syrian armies for fear of being labeled the aggressor.

Later Israel would commit its greatest military blunder when it succumbed to American pressure to release the Egyptian Third Army from certain destruction.

In 1944, Brig.-Gen. Bonner F. Fellers, chief of psychological-warfare operations for Douglas Macarthur, wrote to his boss: "An absolute and unconditional defeat of Japan is the essential ingredient for a lasting peace in the Orient. Only complete military disaster and stinging defeat and colossal losses will prove to the people that the military machine is vincible and that their fanatical leadership has taken them the way to disaster."

But Israel has failed utterly at this psychology of war. It has emboldened the Arabs through repeated and reckless concessions. Had Israel wiped out the Egyptian armies it had encircled and continued its advance to Damascus, it would have maintained its aura of military invincibility and Arab militarism would have been incapacitated for years to come at least.

Instead the Arabs claimed the Yom Kippur War as a victory, and ever since then Israel has been on the retreat. Ariel Sharon, who in 1973 electrified the world with his daring crossing of the Suez Canal, is today yet another embattled Israeli leader desperately struggling to fend off depraved terrorists.

INSECURITY IS something that can be smelled. Israel, a country once suffused with a sense of destiny, is today riddled with uncertainty and a lack of self-confidence. It has become the supplicant of nations, almost begging to be respected.

In an effort to show the world how desperately it wants peace, Israel has, over the past 30 years, given back the entire Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, entered into abortive talks with Syria to return the Golan, returned the wretched Yasser Arafat to "Palestine," and armed his men to the teeth. Now it is relying on a man whose Ph.D thesis denies the Holocaust to fight Hamas.

Do these sound like the actions of a secure government? And what has Israel received for trading in its reputation of ferocious military toughness for peacemaker-at-any-cost?

Egypt, to whom Israel ceded land three times its size with its considerable oil fields, spews more anti-Semitism through official government organs than almost any other nation on earth. Even hard-core peaceniks are not spared Egyptian odium as the April 2000 cover of Al- Arabi, with its picture of Shimon Peres in a Gestapo uniform, displayed.

To be sure, there has been no war between Israel and Egypt since Camp David. But then the same is true of Syria, and a cold peace and a cold war are nearly indistinguishable from one another anyway.

Critics of the Israeli Left like to point out that Yitzhak Rabin destroyed the Jewish state with his catastrophic concessions to Arafat. They would be more honest to acknowledge that it all started with Menachem Begin, who caved in to the horrendous pressure brought to bear upon him by Jimmy Carter, a man consistently rated by historians as one of America's least successful presidents, and a vociferous critic of Israel till this very day.

Only Yitzhak Shamir, so often reviled as a do-nothing prime minister, understood the secret of Israel's survival: Be strong and do nothing. Stand tall and stall for as long as humanly possible until the Arabs, like the Soviet Union, collapse under the weight of their own corrupt political systems and rickety economies.

As late as 1988 Arafat was denied a visa by George Schulz to even enter the United States to speak at the UN. But five years later, in September 1993, the international pariah was on the lawn of the White House hugging President Clinton and winning the Nobel Peace Prize. It was Israel who elevated this slovenly murderer from the dung heap to the status of world statesman.

The road map to peace has become a trail of burned-out buses and dismembered children. But then, did any sane person believe that a puppet Palestinian prime minister - who stated from the outset that he would not fight Hamas - could be trusted to safeguard Jewish life?

Without minimizing the horror, this is all becoming rather tiresome. Dead Jews. More concessions on the part of Israel in a desperate effort to demonstrate that it is not the obstacle to peace. Cease-fires that lead to terrorist rearmament. And then more dead Jews.

John Kennedy's first summit with Nikita Khrushchev in June 1961 ended in disaster because Kennedy came like a supplicant. He first appeased Khrushchev with talk of how he had made a "misjudgment" over the invasion of Cuba, then made the astonishing (and erroneous) admission that Soviet military strength equaled that of the US.

In the words of Robert Dallek's definitive biography of the late President, Khrushchev "seized upon Kennedy's admission of a mistake as an expression of weakness It exhilarated Khrushchev, who took it as another reason to press the case for superior Soviet morality in international affairs...."

Of JFK, Khrushchev later told his comrades, "He's very young not strong enough. Too intelligent and too weak."

Depressed, Kennedy admitted that Khrushchev had "treated me like a little boy, like a little boy." It was his projection of weakness that famously led to the Soviet leader's belief that he could deploy offensive nuclear missiles in Cuba.

But by October 1962 Kennedy had learned his lesson. With steely reserve he chillingly warned that "any nuclear missile launched from Cuba" would be regarded as "an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union."

This time, when the US and the Soviet Union went eyeball to eyeball, it was the Soviets who blinked first.

Some will say that Israel cannot risk antagonizing its foremost ally, the US, who is currently pushing it to make further concessions to the Palestinians. They should learn from King, whose effectiveness lay in his ability to appeal to the best in the American people by reminding them of their own noble ideals: "I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal."

Let Sharon remind Bush, a righteous and courageous leader, that when he pushes Israel to make peace with those who harbor and support terror, he violates his own policies and principles.

Thirty years ago Sharon helped to save the Jewish state when he overrode the orders of well-meaning but clueless military superiors in his desperate gambit to bring the war to Egypt's home turf. Let him now disobey the orders of the leader of the free world, whose own pronouncement against terrorism was magical: "Every nation has a choice to make. In this conflict there is no neutral ground.

If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents, they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril."

The writer is a syndicated radio host on the Talk America Network. His latest book is The Private Adam: Becoming a Hero in a Selfish Age.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/PrinterFull&cid=1062646043037

Mil

09-04-2003, 08:45 AM

Posted by Danholo:

minus,

That caught my eye yesterday as well. What slanted and misinformed reporting. Makes me sick.

Nobody even wonders why Hizbullah fires anti-aircraft "shells" at Israeli towns. Those AA-guns could never hit an IAF warplane even if their lives depended on it. They intentionally aim them at an angle that would hit Israeli soil and people say "they retaliated because of Israeli violation of Lebanese airspace".

Actually the IAF very often makes over-flights over southern Lebanon in order to provoke Hizbullah and then retaliate. I wouldn't warry that much about it or how it's portrayed in the media - nobody cares.

danholo

09-04-2003, 08:49 AM

That is true - nobody does care.

But what is the reason for that tactic? Why not just leave it alone?
Or try some diplomacy with Lebanon?

Mil

09-04-2003, 08:53 AM

Posted by Mediocrates:

Weakness was the legacy of the Yom Kippur war. Gone were the breathtaking victories against overwhelming armies that stunned the world. In its place were fickle leaders who knew, several hours before, that Israel faced certain attack on the afternoon of October 6, 1973, but held off eviscerating the stacked-up Egyptian and Syrian armies for fear of being labeled the aggressor.

Later Israel would commit its greatest military blunder when it succumbed to American pressure to release the Egyptian Third Army from certain destruction.

Blah, Blah, Blah..... blah blah, blah blah.... Who writes this ?

Actually Israelis should be kissing the soles of shoes American Diplomats walked in, especially that of Kissinger, of letting them to drag the war out for as long as it did. America gave Israel all the opportunity to finish the war on the most favorable bases short of going overboard and taking up even more territory. Especially after Egypt's or rather Sadat's true intentions started to get understood at the State Department.

Communication

09-04-2003, 08:54 AM

Hi,

I'm going to be composing a satement to post on this board that can be read allowed when calling the White House regarding the road map and the US position. People should also contact their state reps. If Europeans can post their represenatives numbers, that would be great. I'm also going to ask that people add additional talking points to it. It can then be crafted generally for media reponse and I will post the media contacts [they generally don't print independent comments not related to their own articles].

Also, I am hearing a lot of "buzz" about expanding the representation on the UN Security Council to include countries represenative of all the various regions. This may or may not ever happen, but as long as people are talking about it, you would all just love the responses I get from people when I say that the answer for who the ME rep on the Security Council should be is obvious-ISRAEL! They just look at me in complete shock, as though it is so ridiculous they cannot believe I would make such a suggestion. While in this state of mind, they usually then pompt me for my reasons, since they are too overtaken by the shock to start stating all the usual propaganda. So here are the reasons I have come with so far:

Opening:
"The answer is obvious- we go with our strongest ally and democracy- ISRAEL."

Response:
"You must be joking. You want Israel to represent the ME?"

Counter:

Since most of the ME countries refuse to even recognize Israel's existence, and thus the legitimacy of the UN itself, Israel is a natural choice. It would also help to alleviate the imbalance created by the Arab block in the General Council and the fact that Israel is the only member nation that cannot otherwise rotate through the security council because the Arabs refuse to recognize it as part of the region. Finally, Israel has the strongest military in the ME and they stand the most to gain by establishing peace with their neighbors through diplomatic means, and thus they should play a prominent role in an organization that was established to promote precisely that purpose.

Anyone want to add to this?

Cheers!

SteveMetch

09-04-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello Steve,

I see both points as equally important:

1)foundation of Islam incompatable with modern world

2)Until the world comes to grip with this fact.

Even my live in English girlfriend favors the Palestines but she is so brain washed that I could never change her mind. If I could not effect her then how would I change the world?

If you watch BBC you will see how they use propaganda instead of looking for truth. It is so easy to just believe the propaganda.

Last night they went on and on about a Iraq family that had lost a family member during the war to take Iraq. My girlfriend was almost in tears about the family. To me that is propaganda: It appeals to the emotion rather than to the intellect.

I really like (6) then they would know the price of murder and turn the tables on them.

old reb

Land is the only thing that Muslims value. The don’t value their lives or their children’s lives and certainly do not value Jewish lives. I like your addition of expelling x number of Palestinians. As with any process like this it’s best to start with land acquisitions that are the least problematical and expel those that are the biggest monsters the Muslims have to offer.

I think France would be more than happy to add to their collection of terrorists. The demographics of France is going down the cr*pper and quick. Its to bad, France was once the center of Western civilization and responsible for so much of the success of the Western world.

A word of warning. All this in the world that we discuss is generally not good for relationships between men and women. Everyone must vote their conscience however misinformed they choose to be. They’ll be plenty of things of direct relevance to your immediate relationships that will be more important than wasting political capital on all this cr*p in the world.

minusthejihad

09-04-2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Danholo:

minus,

That caught my eye yesterday as well. What slanted and misinformed reporting. Makes me sick.

Nobody even wonders why Hizbullah fires anti-aircraft "shells" at Israeli towns. Those AA-guns could never hit an IAF warplane even if their lives depended on it. They intentionally aim them at an angle that would hit Israeli soil and people say "they retaliated because of Israeli violation of Lebanese airspace".

Actually the IAF very often makes over-flights over southern Lebanon in order to provoke Hizbullah and then retaliate. I wouldn't warry that much about it or how it's portrayed in the media - nobody cares.

I care. So that makes you wrong. I also talk with many people who read that news and become misinformed by it, so you should care too.

Lastly, I wrote that "what should I do?" tidbit just to see your answer. Of course I know what I should do, I do all those things already, and frankly I have some serious other ideas I wouldn't care to run by you, what, with all your sarcastic, patronizing responses and all.

I don't get what your agenda is. You seem a stanch supporter of Israel, but then you make snide comments to others who want to to something more than complain. Its not like there's billions of us. I couldn't care for most of the Jews I went to highschool with, but I know that when it comes down to it, I know where my loyalties lay, and I know what needs to be done. You want in, or not?

old-reb

09-04-2003, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by SteveMetch

A word of warning. All this in the world that we discuss is generally not good for relationships between men and women. Everyone must vote their conscience however misinformed they choose to be. They’ll be plenty of things of direct relevance to your immediate relationships that will be more important than wasting political capital on all this cr*p in the world.

Very true, My girfriend is responsible for my happnes, health and longivity. As much as I care about the oppressed in the world, my own happness comes first.

About countries supporting terrorist states: If Saudia Arabia cut off our oil we wouldn't be able to function as a nation not less as a warrior nation. But then they know that shutting off the oil would cut off their money and threaten military action on our part.

old reb

old-reb

09-04-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by minusthejihad

I don't get what your agenda is. You seem a stanch supporter of Israel, but then you make snide comments to others who want to to something more than complain. Its not like there's billions of us. I couldn't care for most of the Jews I went to highschool with, but I know that when it comes down to it, I know where my loyalties lay, and I know what needs to be done. You want in, or not?

Am I missing something? I thought that Dan was agreeing with you.

old reb

opps, I didn't fully understand the last paragraph. Now I see where you are coming from Minus.

Dan says:
Actually the IAF very often makes over-flights over southern Lebanon in order to provoke Hizbullah and then retaliate. I wouldn't warry that much about it or how it's portrayed in the media - nobody cares.

minusthejihad

09-04-2003, 09:15 AM

Sorry, that was intened for Mil. No man is an island, not even Mil.

old-reb

09-04-2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by Communication
Hi,

I'm going to be composing a satement to post on this board that can be read allowed when calling the White House regarding the road map and the US position. People should also contact their state reps. If Europeans can post their represenatives numbers, that would be great. I'm also going to ask that people add additional talking points to it. It can then be crafted generally for media reponse and I will post the media contacts [they generally don't print independent comments not related to their own articles].

Anyone want to add to this?

Cheers!

Here is a man that proposes to take action and not just flap the gums.

old reb

old-reb

09-04-2003, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by danholo
And hate preaching can be stopped.

Now that would be the greatest achivement of the history of Islam.

old reb

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Mil

Blah, Blah, Blah..... blah blah, blah blah.... Who writes this ?

It says it in the article.

Actually Israelis should be kissing the soles of shoes American Diplomats walked in, especially that of Kissinger, of letting them to drag the war out for as long as it did. America gave Israel all the opportunity to finish the war on the most favorable bases short of going overboard and taking up even more territory. Especially after Egypt's or rather Sadat's true intentions started to get understood at the State Department.

What was Kissinger planning to do otherwise to cut them short? Dr. K. pressured the Admin to withhold resupplying Israel until Israel threatened massive response eg. nonconventional response.

---and what were Sadat's true intentions?

Mil

09-04-2003, 10:20 AM

What was Kissinger planning to do otherwise to cut them short?

Short of destroying of what was left of the Egyptian army.

Dr. K. pressured the Admin to withhold resupplying Israel until Israel threatened massive response eg. nonconventional response.

Whatever..... American supplies to Israel started within days of the war.

---and what were Sadat's true intentions?

Switch sides, enforce negotiations, remap Egypt's entire political map and geo-political standing...

Mil

09-04-2003, 10:24 AM

Posted by Minus:

I care. So that makes you wrong. I also talk with many people who read that news and become misinformed by it, so you should care too.

Like who outside of the Jews community would care to pay attention?

Lastly, I wrote that "what should I do?" tidbit just to see your answer. Of course I know what I should do, I do all those things already, and frankly I have some serious other ideas I wouldn't care to run by you, what, with all your sarcastic, patronizing responses and all.

That's your business.

I don't get what your agenda is. You seem a stanch supporter of Israel, but then you make snide comments to others who want to to something more than complain.

Like what? Kill all the Muslims in the world?

Its not like there's billions of us.

There are actually around 15 million.

I couldn't care for most of the Jews I went to highschool with, but I know that when it comes down to it, I know where my loyalties lay, and I know what needs to be done. You want in, or not?

ÈÄÈ ÒÛ Â........

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 10:29 AM

you keep accusing people of secretly harboring bloodlust yet you are the only one making that claim.

anyway, anyone who wants to refight the wars that are already over, you can do that w/o me. pick out a wall and bang your head against it.

Let's give Carthage back the Carthaginians!!!

minusthejihad

09-04-2003, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by Minus:

I care. So that makes you wrong. I also talk with many people who read that news and become misinformed by it, so you should care too.

Like who outside of the Jews community would care to pay attention?

Lastly, I wrote that "what should I do?" tidbit just to see your answer. Of course I know what I should do, I do all those things already, and frankly I have some serious other ideas I wouldn't care to run by you, what, with all your sarcastic, patronizing responses and all.

That's your business.

I don't get what your agenda is. You seem a stanch supporter of Israel, but then you make snide comments to others who want to to something more than complain.

Like what? Kill all the Muslims in the world?

Its not like there's billions of us.

There are actually around 15 million.

I couldn't care for most of the Jews I went to highschool with, but I know that when it comes down to it, I know where my loyalties lay, and I know what needs to be done. You want in, or not?

ÈÄÈ ÒÛ Â........

Um, there are lots of people outside the Jew's community who pay attention. Obviously there are the haters, and they gain much of their support from headlines like "Israel bombs Lebanon". That is why it is important to call out news bias when we see it and not say, "ah, who cares".

The other people who pay attention are the people in the middle who are not pro nor anti-Israel, however, the more they see headlines like that, the more they start leaning, and you know which way. These are the people who need to hear the truth, the info behind the headlines, the history, the context, and about the intent.

When have I EVER said, "Kill all the Muslims?". Seriously? I would never, ever say such a thing. As I've said a million times, many of my closest friends are Muslim. And I am no racist or extremist.

However, I do encourage Jews and others who do not want to see people who are committed to killing all of us come to their local gathering hall and rejoice over murderers such as the "Magnificent 19". I would personally "run these crazy baldheads out of town" (Bob Marley) with some help. Of course, I know I wouldn't rely on you. You'd say, "ah, who cares" one day, the next, they're in your house, killing you becuase you are a Jew, whether indifferent or not. Yes, I am saying, violence! Call in the Vigilanties you P*ssies!

And last I heard we were almost at 18 million. Which in the grand scheme of things is roughly .3 percent of the worlds population. So, we're as I said, not in the billions.

Lastly, I didn't understand your last answer.

Mil

09-04-2003, 11:13 AM

Okay. Lets stop this. You have your views, and I know your views, I have my opinion and you know my opinion. Lets leave it at that. Dogovorilis?

danholo

09-04-2003, 11:33 AM

Why do I feel like I'm the only one that doesn't speak Russian?

minusthejihad

09-04-2003, 11:57 AM

Mil,

Da. Kaneshna.

Danholo,

You're not the only one. You're tyte though!

danholo

09-04-2003, 12:03 PM

'Tyte'?

At least I must be the only one who speaks Finnish here though. Heh. :D

MGB8

09-04-2003, 01:51 PM

Mil,

you've said some pretty controversial things (Israel intentionally tries to provoke Hezbollah shelling, Sadat was going to turn over a new leaf PRE 1973....)

Start backing them up.

Mil

09-04-2003, 01:58 PM

Mil,

you've said some pretty controversial things (Israel intentionally tries to provoke Hezbollah shelling,

That's a well known fact that IAF frequently makes overflights over Southern Lebanon.

Sadat was going to turn over a new leaf PRE 1973....)

Open any book on 1973. I recommend "Heroic Diplomacy" by Stein.

Start backing them up.

How?

MGB8

09-04-2003, 02:03 PM

You didn't say "overflights" you said - "intentionally to MAKE Hezbollah fire shells" - those shells don't have to land near Israeli population centers, Mil...or do you claim that they do?

One book is a nice start for this notion of a pre 1973 change in Sadat policy (in fact, I think you claimed pre 1967 - But NASSER was president at the time, no? So why would what Sadat want matter?)

here's the question - if Sadat (NOT in charge in 67) was changing a leaf pre-1973 - WHY DID HE ATTACK ON YOM KIPPUR ALONG WITH THE OTHER ARABS?

sharonbn

09-04-2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by MGB8
here's the question - if Sadat (NOT in charge in 67) was changing a leaf pre-1973 - WHY DID HE ATTACK ON YOM KIPPUR ALONG WITH THE OTHER ARABS?

See my post on the issue:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=63363#post63363

Mil

09-04-2003, 02:28 PM

Posted by MG8:

You didn't say "overflights" you said - "intentionally to MAKE Hezbollah fire shells"

There is no other reason why they would do it but to intimidate.

- those shells don't have to land near Israeli population centers, Mil...or do you claim that they do?

Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say where the shells have to land or that Hisbullah does not fire on Israeli population centers anyways without the over-flights. It's a war so both sides do what they do.

One book is a nice start for this notion of a pre 1973 change in Sadat policy (in fact, I think you claimed pre 1967 - But NASSER was president at the time, no? So why would what Sadat want matter?)

I don't understand you. Please rephrase the statement. There are tons of books on Nasser. I recommend "Britain, Nasser and the Balance of Power in the Middle East" by McNamara.

here's the question - if Sadat (NOT in charge in 67) was changing a leaf pre-1973 - WHY DID HE ATTACK ON YOM KIPPUR ALONG WITH THE OTHER ARABS?

A better way to rephrase the statement is to say that ALL THE ARABS ATTACKED ALONG WITH EGYPT and not the other way around. Actually Jordan refused to get involved and the such of Iraq and Libya heard about the beginning of hostilities through the news - as did the rest of the world.

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 03:58 PM

I fail to see why running military operations against a non state terrorist organization operating in a free fire zone that's been abandoned by the host country who is also occupying their neighbor next door in full view of UN observers who maintain an active observation post is a violation or a provocation of anything.

And I submit, I'm sorry to say, that anyone who does is being intentionally dense or morally obtuse or as is the case looking for a reason to hold Israel to an irrationally absurdly high standard purely to see them fail.

Mediocrates

09-04-2003, 04:00 PM

I'm not impressed by political post hoc analyses about what Sadat might have done in the future from that point on. There was a shooting war going on and anyone who wants to say that it was all fakery and complex diplomacy is a poser.

Yeah I said it.

Gilgamesh

09-04-2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by alexbmn
posting Labor party articles? They've been marginalized even in Israel

Avraham Burg is a walking JOKE!!!

He (like too many politicians in Israel, we call them "the Princes") built his career upon the memory of his father, Prof. Yossef Burg, Germeny born, left minded Jewish schooler who dominated the NRP during the great co operation with Ben Gurion's Ma'pie (Land of Israel workers party) since prehistoric times. Highly respected, old professor Burg senior (Jewish studies) was margionlised once, 1977, when his party turned rightward, and joined forces with Begin's Likud party. And then again, in the late 80's and 90's when this "turning" turned into a stamppee. Now days, NRP stands strong to the right of the Likud: i.e NRP is more militant Zionist then Sharon himself (which isn't much of a problem... Sharon, founder of the Likud is still considered an outsider, almost any Likudnik is to the right of him).

To put a long story short. Avraham Burg alone, was left in the left of the NRP, and joined the Labour party, then barricaded himself the the far left stern of the party. Burg was margionilized SEVERAL times over, he has nothing new to offer, and ZERO public contribution of his own making to prove his credability or parlementary skills. Only past glory, immpresive blood line (which still respected in our region), and slogan-ideology. Since he weres a Kippa, (skull cap ?), he considered an outsided in anti religious workers party he belongs to.

Burg political carear is over, he can only blame the reality for that. He has a PHD in something... I guss it's high time he put it in good use, and work for his living for a change, instead of utilizing each and every drop of his most respected father deep honour each and every true Zionist feels for.

Burg is a washed off. Any effort even read his "ideas" is a perfect waste of time. Better to read Marx's "Der Capital" or something...

Israel's Princes in the Knesset:
* Limor Livnat, future PM, Likud. (doughter of resistance commander)
* Uzi Landau, son of a resistance commander and former Knesset member. Likud.
* Ehud Olmert, son of a resistance commander and MK. Likud.

* Omri Sharon, the PM son.
* Benyamin "Bibi" Natanyahu, Son of prof. Ben Zion Natanyahu, Jabotinsky's personal secretary and a member of Jewish American
millioner Mishpu'che (family or clan, made their fortune in the Ores trade). Brother of Sgan Aluf (Col.) Yonatan Natayahu, fallen hero of operation Entebe, 1976.
* MD Efraim Sneh, Labour. Son of MK Dr. Moshe Sneh, leader of the Zionist-communist party, Maki.
* MD Gen. Eladad (medical corp.) , National Union, son of History Prof. Israel Eldad, leader of a resistance faction (along with Itzhak Shamir).
* Dr. Avraham Burg, Labour. Son of Yossef Burg.
* Itzhak Hertzog, Labour, son of former Gen. (Intelli corp.) and Peresident Haim Hertzog, grandson of state of Israel's first head Rabbi (Ashkenazi, Ireland born).

That's how Jewish aristocracy looks like... Being somebody's son gives one a head start, in any field. Aspecialy in public fields.

In the Media, Ya'ir Stern is son of Abraham Stern, commander of a resistance faction. Ya'akov Ahi-Meir, is son of Abba Ahi-Meir, a resistance leader. MD Raffi Kishon, Israel best known Vet, since his father Efraim Kishon, is Israel's best satire writer and film producer (five films in hebrew, three Oscar nomanee's, several Golden Globes).

"Daddy, please buy me that bank!!! ppplease..."
"Of course my child!... Daddy can never sad his beloved dougther, can he? " That's how Ted's Arison doughter, Cherry, become President of Labour's Bank, Israel second largest, practicly over-night...

"Daddy, I made a boo-boo, please buy me the police! I need it so much!"
"Well, it's a bit tricky... but why not ?! " That's how Ya'akov Nimrodi followed his son Ofer, into a bit of leagal troubles and get's off the hook, for the time beeing... . And then again, he already owned Israel second largest hebrew daily paper, Ma'ariv.
Nimrodi, persia born, was a Mossad agent and armes dealer for the Mossad (helped to establish seacret ties with Iraqi Kurds leader, Barazani, and helped the CIA in arming afaganies in the 80's.

Slivan Shalom, Now Forign Minister and candidate for PM, got remaried with Israel richest women, Suzi Shalom Nir Moses, former widow, co-owner of Yediot A'haronot, Israel largest Hebrew daily, and the Moses family printing empire. Son of a bank teller who was killed in a mis-fire during an armed robbry, is a billionire. (in USD!!! )

Mil

09-04-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Avraham Burg is a walking JOKE!!!

He (like too many politicians in Israel, we call them "the Princes") built his career upon the memory of his father, Prof. Yossef Burg, Germeny born, left minded Jewish schooler who dominated the NRP during the great co operation with Ben Gurion's Ma'pie (Land of Israel workers party) since prehistoric times. Highly respected, old professor Burg senior (Jewish studies) was margionlised once, 1977, when his party turned rightward, and joined forces with Begin's Likud party. And then again, in the late 80's and 90's when this "turning" turned into a stamppee. Now days, NRP stands strong to the right of the Likud: i.e NRP is more militant Zionist then Sharon himself (which isn't much of a problem... Sharon, founder of the Likud is still considered an outsider, almost any Likudnik is to the right of him).

To put a long story short. Avraham Burg alone, was left in the left of the NRP, and joined the Labour party, then barricaded himself the the far left stern of the party. Burg was margionilized SEVERAL times over, he has nothing new to offer, and ZERO public contribution of his own making to prove his credability or parlementary skills. Only past glory, immpresive blood line (which still respected in our region), and slogan-ideology. Since he weres a Kippa, (skull cap ?), he considered an outsided in anti religious workers party he belongs to.

Burg political carear is over, he can only blame the reality for that. He has a PHD in something... I guss it's high time he put it in good use, and work for his living for a change, instead of utilizing each and every drop of his most respected father deep honour each and every true Zionist feels for.

Burg is a washed off. Any effort even read his "ideas" is a perfect waste of time. Better to read Marx's "Der Capital" or something...

Israel's Princes in the Knesset:
* Limor Livnat, future PM, Likud. (doughter of resistance commander)
* Uzi Landau, son of a resistance commander and former Knesset member. Likud.
* Ehud Olmert, son of a resistance commander and MK. Likud.

* Omri Sharon, the PM son.
* Benyamin "Bibi" Natanyahu, Son of prof. Ben Zion Natanyahu, Jabotinsky's personal secretary and a member of Jewish American
millioner Mishpu'che (family or clan, made their fortune in the Ores trade). Brother of Sgan Aluf (Col.) Yonatan Natayahu, fallen hero of operation Entebe, 1976.
* MD Efraim Sneh, Labour. Son of MK Dr. Moshe Sneh, leader of the Zionist-communist party, Maki.
* MD Gen. Eladad (medical corp.) , National Union, son of History Prof. Israel Eldad, leader of a resistance faction (along with Itzhak Shamir).
* Dr. Avraham Burg, Labour. Son of Yossef Burg.
* Itzhak Hertzog, Labour, son of former Gen. (Intelli corp.) and Peresident Haim Hertzog, grandson of state of Israel's first head Rabbi (Ashkenazi, Ireland born).

That's how Jewish aristocracy looks like... Being somebody's son gives one a head start, in any field. Aspecialy in public fields.

In the Media, Ya'ir Stern is son of Abraham Stern, commander of a resistance faction. Ya'akov Ahi-Meir, is son of Abba Ahi-Meir, a resistance leader. MD Raffi Kishon, Israel best known Vet, since his father Efraim Kishon, is Israel's best satire writer and film producer (five films in hebrew, three Oscar nomanee's, several Golden Globes).

"Daddy, please buy me that bank!!! ppplease..."
"Of course my child!... Daddy can never sad his beloved dougther, can he? " That's how Ted's Arison doughter, Cherry, become President of Labour's Bank, Israel second largest, practicly over-night...

"Daddy, I made a boo-boo, please buy me the police! I need it so much!"
"Well, it's a bit tricky... but why not ?! " That's how Ya'akov Nimrodi followed his son Ofer, into a bit of leagal troubles and get's off the hook, for the time beeing... . And then again, he already owned Israel second largest hebrew daily paper, Ma'ariv.
Nimrodi, persia born, was a Mossad agent and armes dealer for the Mossad (helped to establish seacret ties with Iraqi Kurds leader, Barazani, and helped the CIA in arming afaganies in the 80's.

Slivan Shalom, Now Forign Minister and candidate for PM, got remaried with Israel richest women, Suzi Shalom Nir Moses, former widow, co-owner of Yediot A'haronot, Israel largest Hebrew daily, and the Moses family printing empire. Son of a bank teller who was killed in a mis-fire during an armed robbry, is a billionire. (in USD!!! )

You've seen nothing yet. Here in Chicago it's all the same tale it's just that we are all Irish.... :)

sharonbn

09-05-2003, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Slivan Shalom, Now Forign Minister and candidate for PM, got remaried with Israel richest women, Suzi Shalom Nir Moses, former widow, co-owner of Yediot A'haronot, Israel largest Hebrew daily, and the Moses family printing empire. Son of a bank teller who was killed in a mis-fire during an armed robbry, is a billionire. (in USD!!! )

just a small correction:

The richest woman in Israel is Sherry Arrison who owns Bank Hapoalim, daughter of Ted Arrison.

Wife of Silvan Shalom, Judy (not Suzi), does not hold ownership of Yediot A'haronot. Amos, son of Noah, is sole owner of the media empire.

One more price I can remember is Dan Meridor, his father was Likud MK.

Mil

09-05-2003, 04:48 AM

Sounds like some biblical story :)

Communication

09-05-2003, 06:42 AM

Sorry to break up the party, I won't be able to post my talking points until this weekend. But I just wanted to drop a line saying that there is nothing that can take the wind out of someone's sails when they are trying to defend a nation's policies faster than waking up and reading this:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=10&u=/ap/20030904/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_settlements

Before people start making comments about how these new settlements are confined to blocks within the current neighborhoods and do not actually expand the existing settlements, or that they are overcrowded, save it, because I already tried making that ridiculous argument myself to people.

This has to be the most idiotic move on the part of Israel's leadership that I have seen so far. Adding settlements right now? Don't they know that whatever the PA has done to cast a negative light on themselves is only going to be deflected by this stupid, stupid decision? I realize that it is slim pickings for Israeli leadership right now, but it doesn't take a seasoned politician to know what the other side is going to do with this.

Communication

09-05-2003, 07:20 AM

One more thing, since you guys were talking about Sadat:

He wasn't so great, not the "Last Pharoah" or whatever he was referred to in the West. In 1972, at a feast in honor of Muhammed's birthday, he stated "They shall return and be as the Koran said of them, "condemned to humiliation and misery." We shall send them back to their former state. Then the Yom Kippur happened. He was no prince. When he finally made peace with Israel he said quite clearly in his speech to the Knesset that ultimate peace depended on Israel recognizing a Palestinian right of return, knowing fully well that over time, the demographic shift would lead to Islamic rule there too too. And at the same time, the hypocrite never acknowledged all the Jewish refugees from Egypt.

Mediocrates

09-05-2003, 07:51 AM

Expanding the settlements now is a good move. That way if they have to 'remove' them it's only on paper. Think about it, 102 apartments home to perhaps 350 Jews would present such a problem to the peaceful people of Palistan. Don't know about you but in my experience that is somewhere between 1 and 4 mid sized buildings. Wow.

Well if it were me I'd simply claim that it was the 12th most holy site of Judaism or something like that. In fact that's exactly what the Sharon govt should do. They should start calling each of the 'settlements' Holy Sites that can't be disturbed or removed. Sorry duudes.

danholo

09-05-2003, 07:58 AM

Hehe...

Well, medio, I think it's the principle for the Palestinians, not the size. The house could be a cabana beach house but for the Palestinians zero Jews means zero Jews.

Mil

09-05-2003, 08:13 AM

Posted by Communication:

One more thing, since you guys were talking about Sadat:

He wasn't so great, not the "Last Pharoah" or whatever he was referred to in the West. In 1972, at a feast in honor of Muhammed's birthday, he stated "They shall return and be as the Koran said of them, "condemned to humiliation and misery." We shall send them back to their former state. Then the Yom Kippur happened. He was no prince. When he finally made peace with Israel he said quite clearly in his speech to the Knesset that ultimate peace depended on Israel recognizing a Palestinian right of return, knowing fully well that over time, the demographic shift would lead to Islamic rule there too too. And at the same time, the hypocrite never acknowledged all the Jewish refugees from Egypt.

Sadat was the greatest ruler modern Egypt could have hoped for. I don't care about his ideological convictions but as a politician he is worth something.

Communication

09-05-2003, 08:50 AM

He was just ok. It says more about the Israeli people, who cheered him for coming to Israel, than Sadat for making the visit. Sadat got back all of the Siani along with the hotels that Israel built there plus the second largest aid package ever awarded by the United States. All the Israeli people got in return was peace.

Communication

09-05-2003, 08:56 AM

I just read this statement:

"British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw: EU needs to outlaw Hamas, I think there is broad consensus to do so."

We need to encourage this.

Mil

09-05-2003, 08:59 AM

Posted by Communication:

He was just ok. It says more about the Israeli people, who cheered him for coming to Israel, than Sadat for making the visit. Sadat got back all of the Siani along with the hotels that Israel built there plus the second largest aid package ever awarded by the United States. All the Israeli people got in return was peace.

No, Sadat was one of the Greatest political figurest of the second part of the twentieth century. The way he had manipulated US, the West, USSR, Israel, and finally his friends the Arabs is on par with that of Bismark, Kissinger, Adenaour.

Communication

09-05-2003, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Mil

No, Sadat was one of the Greatest political figurest of the second part of the twentieth century. The way he had manipulated US, the West, USSR, Israel, and finally his friends the Arabs is on par with that of Bismark, Kissinger, Adenaour. [/B]

he also got shot for it. and it was an inside job.

sharonbn

09-05-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Communication
he also got shot for it. and it was an inside job.

I agree with Mil on the assessment of Anuar Sadat. He is one of the most coragous and visionary leaders in the modern era.

Sadat paid a personal price for his vision and courage. Rabin paid the same price, also from the hands of extremists anti-peace terrorists.

You have to remember that Sadat, not Israel, initiated the peace process by coming to Israel and giving a speech in the Knesset. He announced his initiative in a speech in the Egyptian parliament that shocked the Arab world and the entire world indeed. He was the first Arab leader to break the strategy of no recognition of Israel set forth in Khartom in 1968.

He went against the entire Arab world. Egypt paid a high price for that: from the position of the most prominent and influencial Arab state, it sank to almost total isolation for a period of 4 years, until his assasination.

I saw a documentary about that period: Sadat saught support from Syria and went on a visit to Damascus, three days before he was scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem. The Syrian FM said in the documentary that some of Assad's ministers told him they should arrest Sadat and prevent him from going to Jerusalem. Assad refused because he considered Sadat his visitor and its against Arab hospitality tradition to arrest or harm your visitor. But he refused to publicly endorse Sadat's initiative.

The documentary went on to describe the worries of the Egyptian security authorities about the visit to Jerusalem. They were convinced that Sadat put his life in the hands of their bitter enemy - what if Israel decided to arrest or assasinate Sadat? Head of Egyptian security authorities tried to persuade his president to hold the meeting on a neutral place, but Sadat refused to listen to him.

So you can see that Sadat was actually all alone in his quest - no support from Arab neighbors, no support from home. I'd say it takes a whole lot of conviction and courage to go againt the advice of everyone surrounding you.

He wasn't "just OK", he was a visionary. Something the ME and the world in general lack.

frizzer1

09-05-2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
I agree with Mil on the assessment of Anuar Sadat. He is one of the most coragous and visionary leaders in the modern era.

Sadat paid a personal price for his vision and courage. Rabin paid the same price, also from the hands of extremists anti-peace terrorists.

You have to remember that Sadat, not Israel, initiated the peace process by coming to Israel and giving a speech in the Knesset. He announced his initiative in a speech in the Egyptian parliament that shocked the Arab world and the entire world indeed. He was the first Arab leader to break the strategy of no recognition of Israel set forth in Khartom in 1968.

He went against the entire Arab world. Egypt paid a high price for that: from the position of the most prominent and influencial Arab state, it sank to almost total isolation for a period of 4 years, until his assasination.

I saw a documentary about that period: Sadat saught support from Syria and went on a visit to Damascus, three days before he was scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem. The Syrian FM said in the documentary that some of Assad's ministers told him they should arrest Sadat and prevent him from going to Jerusalem. Assad refused because he considered Sadat his visitor and its against Arab hospitality tradition to arrest or harm your visitor. But he refused to publicly endorse Sadat's initiative.

The documentary went on to describe the worries of the Egyptian security authorities about the visit to Jerusalem. They were convinced that Sadat put his life in the hands of their bitter enemy - what if Israel decided to arrest or assasinate Sadat? Head of Egyptian security authorities tried to persuade his president to hold the meeting on a neutral place, but Sadat refused to listen to him.

So you can see that Sadat was actually all alone in his quest - no support from Arab neighbors, no support from home. I'd say it takes a whole lot of conviction and courage to go againt the advice of everyone surrounding you.

He wasn't "just OK", he was a visionary. Something the ME and the world in general lack.

Communication, I have to disagree with you also about Sadat.It doesn't matter what he did prior to his visit to Israel, and it doesn't even matter what he said in his speech to the knesset..what matters is the he was the first to publicly break the no recognition policy of the arabs as Sharon has said.
No one should minimise the risk he took..He knew he would be a target and he did ultimately die because of it.
I remember those days.We loved sadat..all of us..I remember some of his interviews...a reporter would ask him if Israel would be difficult to deal with in a certain situation...he would puff on his pipe..give the interviewer a smile..and say "begin will be begin and Sadat will be sadat.and we will work it out,,don't worry"
He should be considered one of the great men of history.

Communication

09-05-2003, 10:01 AM

Oh fine! At least give yourselves some credit for welcoming him into Israel and giving back all the land acquired in exchange for peace.

frizzer1

09-05-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by danholo
Hehe...

Well, medio, I think it's the principle for the Palestinians, not the size. The house could be a cabana beach house but for the Palestinians zero Jews means zero Jews.

Of course it's the principle.
We have Abbas fighting for his political life (and maybe more) against Arafat ,needing all the support he can get.Israel fighting for world wide support and finally seeming to be turning a page.
And supporters ,including people like us, defending Israel's performance during the roadmap and rightly blaming the pals for it's failure,,,,and then they do THIS ?
What stupidity? Don't they know anything about PR?
They just gave the finger to the US and the rest of the world....and for what? A few crummy apartments?
Good grief...use some common sense, for heaven's sake

danholo

09-05-2003, 10:17 AM

Well. We must admit that the Israeli PR campaign is one of the worst on today's political scene. And somehow they don't even realize it.

danholo

09-05-2003, 10:20 AM

At least we're giving some credit for an Arab, which is very rare on this board. The other "good guy" would be the late King Hussein I think.

Mil

09-05-2003, 11:02 AM

Posted by Sharonb:

I agree with Mil on the assessment of Anuar Sadat. He is one of the most coragous and visionary leaders in the modern era.

Sadat paid a personal price for his vision and courage. Rabin paid the same price, also from the hands of extremists anti-peace terrorists.

You have to remember that Sadat, not Israel, initiated the peace process by coming to Israel and giving a speech in the Knesset. He announced his initiative in a speech in the Egyptian parliament that shocked the Arab world and the entire world indeed. He was the first Arab leader to break the strategy of no recognition of Israel set forth in Khartom in 1968.

He went against the entire Arab world. Egypt paid a high price for that: from the position of the most prominent and influencial Arab state, it sank to almost total isolation for a period of 4 years, until his assasination.

I saw a documentary about that period: Sadat saught support from Syria and went on a visit to Damascus, three days before he was scheduled to arrive in Jerusalem. The Syrian FM said in the documentary that some of Assad's ministers told him they should arrest Sadat and prevent him from going to Jerusalem. Assad refused because he considered Sadat his visitor and its against Arab hospitality tradition to arrest or harm your visitor. But he refused to publicly endorse Sadat's initiative.

The documentary went on to describe the worries of the Egyptian security authorities about the visit to Jerusalem. They were convinced that Sadat put his life in the hands of their bitter enemy - what if Israel decided to arrest or assasinate Sadat? Head of Egyptian security authorities tried to persuade his president to hold the meeting on a neutral place, but Sadat refused to listen to him.

So you can see that Sadat was actually all alone in his quest - no support from Arab neighbors, no support from home. I'd say it takes a whole lot of conviction and courage to go againt the advice of everyone surrounding you.

He wasn't "just OK", he was a visionary. Something the ME and the world in general lack.

Actually I wouldn't be so sentimental. The biggest thing that Saddat did was to put Egypt up front first, like a real leader should do, and all the Arab causes second. During the time of Nasser Egypt was at the front of Arab nationalism "advertising" for Arab and anti-Western/anti-colonial/anti-Israeli causes. The problem was that if Egypt kept up doing whatever it was doing nothing would be accomplished but failure. Engaging Israel militarily, as in 1967 has only brought diseaster, engaging into Arab politics brought Yemen and yet another diseater, Arab Republic fell apart, putting pressure on Iraq and Syria and other nationalistic "secular" regimes went to nothing, the economy was collapsing, population was growing and radicalizing, state expenditures were increasing at astronomical rates... Especially the Israeli issue - Egypt could not physically fight Israel for nationalistic Arab causes, at the expense of other Arabs, hence it would always loose and loose big.

The only good or may be a bad thing for that matter was the Soviet Union. However, while the Soviets could help with the weapons and political support economically they were not much help. Plus the Soviets were very interested in keeping all the conflicts going in the ME hence it gave them more political standing in the region and in the context of the Cold War and the politics of oil it was only to their benefit. At the time Syria, Iraq and Libya were already Soviet clients and all had problems with Egypt and specifically Nasser. The only other influential country that was not associated with the Soviets was Saudi Arabia but then nobody wanted to deal much with those fanatics anyways or depend on its oil-money donations. Plus Saudi Arabia would only benefit from Egypt failures since given its oil and non-secular regimes they only looked in laughter at Egypt killing itself. Anyways as one of the authors put it "Nasser's rule started with British occupation and ended with Soviet occupation." It all had to stop.

Sadat understood that playing Arab intrigues and politics for whatever the cause, including the all favorite Palestinians, would destroy Egypt at everyone elses expense and neither the West, nor the Soviets, nor the fellow Arabs would be too sympathetic if that took place. Thus the only approach left was to ask for an alliance with US. However, to be in the alliance with the US would require making peace with Israel and that's exactly what Sadat did - even if it meant the condomnation from the entire Arab world and an eventual price-tag on his head. Not that Sadat cared much for Israel or for the Palestinians for that matter but he did care about Egypt and that makes him a great leader.

Communication

09-05-2003, 11:18 AM

That's pretty good, Mil. I'm going to post that in an Egyptian forum.

Mil

09-05-2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Communication
That's pretty good, Mil. I'm going to post that in an Egyptian forum.

No prob. Thanks.

MGB8

09-05-2003, 12:40 PM

1. Hezbollah responds to flights NOT by firing at the planes but by firing at towns...THAT is the fact. We only here about things when they fire at the towns.

How is that "proportional"?

What about the fact that Hezbollah DOES NOT REPRESENT Lebanon?

Should Israel fire at Arab towns in retaliation?

What about Hezbollah's call to kidnap more Israeli's?

Or the fact that there was a deal to exchange prisoners (whom they KIDNAPP, as opposed to catch in the act of criminal operations) , but they reneged on THEIR PART after they got their men?

How about the quotes from their leadership calling for the murder of all Israeli's and the destruction of Israel?

What about UNPROVOKED attacks on Israeli towns - it IS NOT as you say, you are simply wrong (or lying) that every shelling of a town is response to overflights. You stepped back this time, but your implication before was clear - that Hezbollah is "just reacting" - when clearly it is not.

As for Sadat - the notion that he "had to" attack on Yom Kippur and go to War (as opposed to other diplomatic means - UN Pressure - and open/PUBLIC offer....not to mention the fact that Sharon's comments have been contradicted by other sources on this board....)

And the question was simple - what does Sadat have to do with Egyptian Policy when Nasser was in charge? The answer, of course, is very very little, if anything.

As for the Yom Kippur WAr - true, not all the Arab nations attacked - by other Arabs I just meant the other attackers...but you DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION...why "must" he have attacked - on Yom Kippur no less? Especially since he was such a "peaceful" man (as opposed to a Pramatist who realized that Israel was gaining US Support, getting Nukes, and that US Support was the way to go....)

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by MG8:

You didn't say "overflights" you said - "intentionally to MAKE Hezbollah fire shells"

There is no other reason why they would do it but to intimidate.

- those shells don't have to land near Israeli population centers, Mil...or do you claim that they do?

Don't put words in my mouth. I did not say where the shells have to land or that Hisbullah does not fire on Israeli population centers anyways without the over-flights. It's a war so both sides do what they do.

One book is a nice start for this notion of a pre 1973 change in Sadat policy (in fact, I think you claimed pre 1967 - But NASSER was president at the time, no? So why would what Sadat want matter?)

I don't understand you. Please rephrase the statement. There are tons of books on Nasser. I recommend "Britain, Nasser and the Balance of Power in the Middle East" by McNamara.

here's the question - if Sadat (NOT in charge in 67) was changing a leaf pre-1973 - WHY DID HE ATTACK ON YOM KIPPUR ALONG WITH THE OTHER ARABS?

A better way to rephrase the statement is to say that ALL THE ARABS ATTACKED ALONG WITH EGYPT and not the other way around. Actually Jordan refused to get involved and the such of Iraq and Libya heard about the beginning of hostilities through the news - as did the rest of the world.

Communication

09-07-2003, 05:04 PM

ROUGH DRAFT

I'm in the process of refining this. It's too long to read over the phone, although parts can be edited out. I would appreciate some help with the edits and then maybe we can all call the white house and our reps this week. I think this is going to be an important week for phone calls and I'm sure the White House will be getting plenty of calls from the other side. Also, letters would be good too. I will post all the addresses/phone numbers and e-mails that we need after we come up with a final draft. I wish I had more time to commit to this, but maybe if we all work on it just a little, we can get something together that we all feel good about sending.

Thanks Everyone.

Mr. President:

I urge you to refocus on the goals you brilliantly outlined on July 29, 2003, stating that:

“If we are ever to reach our common goal of two states living side-by-side in peace and security, leaders must assume responsibility.”

In your speech, you acknowledged that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon had begun to assume responsibility for implementing Israel’s part in the first phase of the road map.

Phase One requirements.
1. easing restrictions against Palestinians by letting fishermen go out more than 10 miles to deep coastal water fishing, opening the Gaza port, letting tens of thousands of Palestinian workers return to jobs inside of Israel, removing road blocks, lifting curfews throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip

2. releasing tax money to the PA treasury

3. removing IDF presence from much of Gaza Strip and West Bank

4. acknowledging that there would be a state of "Palestine"

5. restraint in response to terror attacks after Abbas became PM, and again after the Aqaba meeting

6. dismantling some settlements.

You then stated, “All parties agree that a fundamental obstacle to peace is terrorism, which can never be justified by any cause. The Palestinian Authority must undertake sustained, targeted and effective operations to confront those engaged in terror, and to dismantle terrorist capabilities and infrastructure.”

To its dismay, the Palestinian Authority did nothing to stop terrorism. Thus, despite Israel's full compliance with the 'road map's Phase One requirements, it was faced with resurgent terrorism and carnage.

Abbas publicly foreswore any action against Hamas, even courting them to enter his government and offering to legalize their arsenals by including them into the Palestinian Authority police force. They turned him down.

Pior to the Jerusalem bombing that killed 21 people, many of them children, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, el-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, and Hezbullah took credit for numerous attacks on Israelis since the 6/29/03 "cease fire" went into effect. In the month of July alone there were 167 attacks launched by Palestinian terrorists against Israel. Happily all but a few were aborted by Israeli intervention.

The PA has shown that when it comes to their own security, however, they can and will take action, as evidenced by the PA’s decisive military action when a bicycle laden with explosives meant for an impending attack on Israelis detonated prematurely outside PA headquarters.

Mr. President, we must not ask Israel to negotiate for a Palestinian State until the renewed terrorist attacks stop and the terrorist infrastructure is dismantled. Furthermore, we must support Israel's right to defend its citizens against such brutal acts of aggression in the face of PA non-compliance with their obligations under the terms of the road map.

Mediocrates

09-07-2003, 06:51 PM

Quote the President's own words back to him w/o being snarky. Some American's are actually deluded in projecting their own disgust with Bush and imagine that he is far less popular overseas, in other governments than he actually is. Mr. Bush's own sentiments about terrorism and fear, are, like them or not, straightforward. To the President it's not about abandoning yur allies it's about abandoning humanity itself.

Communication

09-07-2003, 08:55 PM

that's what I need help with. Does it sound "snarky?"

Mediocrates

09-08-2003, 04:08 AM

No not at all - all I was suggesting was that for example you could excerpt quotes from Mr. Bush's speech - the one last night is a good example w/o laying it on too thick, to drive home the point that what we say we need to do for ourselves they should be allowed to do for themselves.

Communication

09-09-2003, 07:46 AM

So far, the only person who responded to my call for some form of action is Mediocrates. We are all busy, but making a phone call or sending out an e-mail takes no more than two minutes. You can revise what I wrote as you see fit, but PLEASE make the calls to your represenatives in Congress and Washington. The pro-Arab contingency is doing it, so at least let your voices be heard.

Right now, the PA is seeking additional concessions in the form of a cease fire from Israel without taking any reciprocal steps of their own towards fulfilling their obligations under the road map.

Any Palestinian Prime Minister Must Fight Terror! In the wake of the resignation of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, top U.S. officials this weekend said that any leader who replaces him must dismantle terrorist organizations. "Whoever becomes the new Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority must have under his control all of the security forces, and he must have a solid political mandate from the Palestinian Legislative Council in order to go after these terrorist organizations," said Secretary of State Colin Powell Sunday on ABC's "This Week" program. National Security Adviser Condoleezza echoed this sentiment, saying that the next Palestinian prime minister " is going to have to have the authority to unify the security forces and to fight terror or it won't be possible for the Palestinian people to move forward." The United States has consistently called on the Palestinian Authority to dismantle the terrorist infrastructure.

Let our officials know that we back these statements!

Here is a link that you can use to locate your represenatives in your states:

http://capwiz.com/aipac/dbq/officials/

and here is the information for the President:

E-mail: president@whitehouse.gov

Washington Office:
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, US 20500
Phone: (202) 456-1414
Fax: (202) 456-2461

Mil

09-09-2003, 08:34 AM

Sorry, Communication. You letter is nothing more then reactionary. The real way to solve the issue is to push on Europeans and Arabs to freeze funds going to Hamas, IJ, Fahta and Hisbullah - for US to put very serious political pressure on Syria and Iran. To not raise sanctions of Libya and generally to intensify the "War on Terrorism." As long as Palestinian extremists enjoy any kind of political legitimacy they will not relinquish their goals or go extinct as such. Apparently the shock to the fall of Iraq in the Arab world is gone and the the tyranical regimes in the area think that they got off easy..... Especially given the current instabilities in the world opinion as to American actions in the Arab world it's the president's job to unite all the opposition against the political intriguers (if there is such a world) of the Arab world, force them into negotiations or better off destroy them as such - as was done with that of Hussein. The only way to fight terrorism is to go at the source - and the source is the Arab world. As long as the Arab world will not change the Israeli/Pal conflict would go on, and on, and on....

danholo

09-09-2003, 08:45 AM

As long as the Arab world will not change the Israeli/Pal conflict would go on, and on, and on....

I agree.

When two totally opposite cultures collide, bad (and some good) things happen. At least that's my opinion.
Arab culture (behavior, pattern of thinking etc.) is so fundementally different than Western culture "Human rights" groups and "pro-Pal" activists do not notice - or totally ignore - this fact. This has brought us to this clash of "civilizations" and what drives us to violence.

We need an analysis of both western (christian), western Jewish, arab jewish and arab mentality.

Mil's opinion may not coincide with mine but I do get his point.

Communication

09-09-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Mil
Sorry, Communication. You letter is nothing more then reactionary. The real way to solve the issue is to push on Europeans and Arabs to freeze funds going to Hamas, IJ, Fahta and Hisbullah - for US to put very serious political pressure on Syria and Iran. To not raise sanctions of Libya and generally to intensify the "War on Terrorism." As long as Palestinian extremists enjoy any kind of political legitimacy they will not relinquish their goals or go extinct as such. Apparently the shock to the fall of Iraq in the Arab world is gone and the the tyranical regimes in the area think that they got off easy..... Especially given the current instabilities in the world opinion as to American actions in the Arab world it's the president's job to unite all the opposition against the political intriguers (if there is such a world) of the Arab world, force them into negotiations or better off destroy them as such - as was done with that of Hussein. The only way to fight terrorism is to go at the source - and the source is the Arab world. As long as the Arab world will not change the Israeli/Pal conflict would go on, and on, and on....

Look, Mil do you want to write an alternative letter, or maybe you want to just go on and on about what the world should do until we've heard the same complaints a couple hundred times?

The Europeans are freezing funds going to Hamas, and I'm sure public support helped make that possible. All of these people are elected officials and they need to know that if they make a move towards erradicating terrorism, that there are voters who back them.

Three years ago you could ask the average college student who are the Palestinians and they wouldn't have a clue. Today, many think that they are experts on the topic of the ME and they've learned everything they know about it from the Arabs. Why? because the Arabs use every opportunity they can to explain their side. Use all the opportunities we have, Mil. Whatever it is you have to say, say it, but don't just confine it to this forum. As much as I enjoy my discussions with people on this board and I will continue them, it's too easy to get comfortable talking with the same people, most who already agree with you.

BTW, if you are interested in writing letters to push the US to get serious with Syria, there is a form letter for this on the aipac website:

http://www.aipac.org/Action1.cfm

maybe you might want to start one regarding the Iranina nuclear facility:

Here is a recent article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/338082.html

you now know the addresses. I can also post all the media addresses as well.

Also, all the Europeans on this board- WE NEED YOUR HELP TOO!!!!!

Mil

09-09-2003, 09:54 AM

Posted by Communication:

Look, Mil do you want to write an alternative letter, or maybe you want to just go on and on about what the world should do until we've heard the same complaints a couple hundred times?

Listen I am not working against you. We are all on the same side where I just think that the problem has a different source and is much wider in nature. That's all.

The Europeans are freezing funds going to Hamas, and I'm sure public support helped make that possible.

Nope. It's American pressure and political necessities. If anything public support in Europe is not very friendly.

All of these people are elected officials and they need to know that if they make a move towards erradicating terrorism, that there are voters who back them.

If it was only that simple. Europe wants this conflict to be over as soon as possible since it distabilizes their own position in the ME and acts against them domestically. Hell, Shroder was 100% elected on an anti-American platform and can you tell me if this should be the platform to run on? Europe is currently in a deep economic recession - the economy is stagnant, immigration (legal and illegal) is increasing and is mostly Arab, the price of oil is going up, tourism is down, jobs are going overseas, while living expenses are rising - and public officials are running on very focused foreign policy issue dealing with the biggest ally they have? Is that normal? They all understand it's stupid and is completely counter-productive in the long run and they try to change the trend the sooner the better doing whatever including freezing funds of Palestinian extremists.

Three years ago you could ask the average college student who are the Palestinians and they wouldn't have a clue. Today, many think that they are experts on the topic of the ME and they've learned everything they know about it from the Arabs. Why? because the Arabs use every opportunity they can to explain their side. Use all the opportunities we have, Mil.

The problem that I have is that many Jews themselves don't understand of what's going on - and that's what really bugs me.

Whatever it is you have to say, say it, but don't just confine it to this forum. As much as I enjoy my discussions with people on this board and I will continue them, it's too easy to get comfortable talking with the same people, most who already agree with you.

I personally don't agree with many on this forum and find the same many - a bit gullible.

BTW, if you are interested in writing letters to push the US to get serious with Syria, there is a form letter for this on the aipac website:

http://www.aipac.org/Action1.cfm

maybe you might want to start one regarding the Iranina nuclear facility:

Here is a recent article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/338082.html

you now know the addresses. I can also post all the media addresses as well.

Also, all the Europeans on this board- WE NEED YOUR HELP TOO!!!!!

Thanks. I'll do that for sure.

danholo

09-09-2003, 10:50 AM

So, Mil, when are you going to appear on MSNBC, CNN or FOX News? You'd be great!

Communication

09-09-2003, 10:55 AM

danholo, are you going to phone the president this week? Why not?

danholo

09-09-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Communication
danholo, are you going to phone the president this week? Why not?

I hate making phone calls - that's why. I might write though.

Mil

09-09-2003, 11:14 AM

Posted by Danholo:

So, Mil, when are you going to appear on MSNBC, CNN or FOX News? You'd be great!

No. I am only brave on paper and not much of the conversationalist. Yet I would like to have a conversation with likes of Levin and Feinstein - what the hell are they thinking? I really love those Palestinian speakers against them I would.

There are only a few people which I totally appreciate when interviewed: Fareed Zacharia (Is he Jewish?), Kenneth Pollack, Lawerence Eagleburger, and of course Henry Kissinger.... all else are dull in political rhetoric.

Hey Communication - I hope you are not mad at me or anything. It's just my view, one of many on this great forum.

Communication

09-09-2003, 11:20 AM

Hey Communication - I hope you are not mad at me or anything. It's just my view, one of many on this great forum.

Where are you at on your letter regarding the Iranian nuclear facility? ;)

danholo

09-09-2003, 11:21 AM

And I thought that people think Kissinger is a war criminal.

Mil

09-09-2003, 11:27 AM

Where are you at on your letter regarding the Iranian nuclear facility?

My thoughts on how to deal with Iran are also a bit different. :) I know - I know....

Mil

09-09-2003, 11:28 AM

And I thought that people think Kissinger is a war criminal.

Too bad for those people. I recommend you read some of the books he wrote - absolutely amazing stuff that will change your perception of how to look at foreign policy all together.

Communication

09-09-2003, 12:52 PM

Ok, Mil, what do you think....naive?

the Euros may be tempted to fill the vacumn for supplying humanitarian needs to the Palestinian people as well as building infrastructure to the tune of $5 billion.

Dismantle the terror networks now! No fake "hudnas" no "ceasefires." Either the PA gets serious about implementing their obligations under the road map and they go after the terror groups or Israel does it. Once they are gone, Europe fills the humanitarian role and continues to work with the Palestinians on PA reforms to transform the organization into a viable, accountable and legitimate government. If Arafat stands in the way, then someone needs to get him out of the way. If this is done, then Israel has no excuses that it can make for not implementing their obligations under the road map either. And then hopefully, an agreement can be reached.

www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1063089928835

Mil

09-09-2003, 01:37 PM

Posted by Communication:

Ok, Mil, what do you think....naive?

You put too much faith in me :)

the Euros may be tempted to fill the vacumn for supplying humanitarian needs to the Palestinian people as well as building infrastructure

That's the thing. They are not very tempted at all. They don't want to get involved.

to the tune of $5 billion.

5 billion? The entire yearly EU foreign aid budget stands at around 700 million Euros. US alone spends over 25 billion - just for comparison (including the 15 billion dollar AIDs package takes the number wayyyy up.) Individual EU countries would want to contribute outside the EU mechanism - as Germany, France, or Britian - but even combined that number would never be 5 billion!!!! The only possible moneytary contributors in the situation are only two: United States and suprisingly Saudi Arabia. Japan and Europe are only second on my list and I have more faith in Japan.

Listen the 87 billion Bush is planning to spend reconstructing Iraq sounds to the Europeans like some astronomical number even for an economic conglamerate as represented by EU. One of the largest reasons why Europe did not want to get involved in Iraq is for strictly financial reasons - their economies simply have no comparison to that of the United States.

Dismantle the terror networks now! No fake "hudnas" no "ceasefires." Either the PA gets serious about implementing their obligations under the road map and they go after the terror groups or Israel does it.

The only way to dismantle terror networks is to do it from the outside the Palestine not on the ground.

If Israel will really go after the terror infrustructure it will be a very bloody affair and it will never be supported by neither the US, Europe or whoever else outside the Jewish community.

Once they are gone, Europe fills the humanitarian role and continues to work with the Palestinians on PA reforms to transform the organization into a viable, accountable and legitimate government.

Supposedly the above does happen. Europe will NEVER fill anything, you put too much faith into Europe. If anything Europe does not have any kind of experience and most importantly commitment to have what it takes for nation-building. All the work will put on the shoulders of the United States and may be Israel - I personally don't have too many illusions on the matter.

If Arafat stands in the way, then someone needs to get him out of the way.

Don't warry - he will die soon.

If this is done, then Israel has no excuses that it can make for not implementing their obligations under the road map either. And then hopefully, an agreement can be reached.

I actually cannot even imagine of what it will take Israel to commit to a two-state solution. Probably what you described above will do it , however, more then likely nothing like what you described above would ever take place. In my opinion the only way to resolve the issue is a 100% unilateral separation of the two states on Israel's terms - specifically the retention of the entire Jerusalem.

Communication

09-09-2003, 02:31 PM

ok, well, anotgher suicide bomber just made it into Jerusalem. I'm not sure that Isrdael is going to wait for all out war, but then you never know with them. I can't see the PA going after the terror groups, especially with Arafat in power. Remove Arafat and replace him with who? The only person I can think of who can assume that role is sitting in an Isfraeli jail, and I don't think that Marwan would be willing to go after the terror groups as long as Israel is involved in the territories.

unilateral seperation on Israel's terms? With what, that stupid fence as a barrier between them and Hamas' rockets? Does Israel evict the Palestinian residents from their villages in order to take some of the West Bank hills so that at least Hamas isn't looking down on Israeli villages when firing their rockets? And the terror groups wouldn't see that as a victory?

Mil

09-09-2003, 03:02 PM

Posted by Communication:

ok, well, anotgher suicide bomber just made it into Jerusalem. I'm not sure that Isrdael is going to wait for all out war, but then you never know with them. I can't see the PA going after the terror groups, especially with Arafat in power.

What's funny about the Palestinians is the context in which they present themselves. It sounds like they are doing everyone a favor by helping themselves!!!!

Remove Arafat and replace him with who? The only person I can think of who can assume that role is sitting in an Isfraeli jail, and I don't think that Marwan would be willing to go after the terror groups as long as Israel is involved in the territories.

Marwant will not be out of jail till its all over. That I can guarantee. It should be anything but Arafat - and I say anybody. Abu Ala, or Abbas, or whoever as long as its not Arafat.

unilateral seperation on Israel's terms? With what, that stupid fence as a barrier between them and Hamas' rockets?

Well - suicide bombers are scarrier. Whenver there will be a Palestinian state the fence will stay that's for sure.

Does Israel evict the Palestinian residents from their villages in order to take some of the West Bank hills so that at least Hamas isn't looking down on Israeli villages when firing their rockets?

Probably, as I said unilateral with no overflight rights over Israel.

And the terror groups wouldn't see that as a victory?

At least both countries will be separated.

nuttie

09-11-2003, 03:32 AM

Originally posted by Communication
In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.
And answered by Mediocrates
"They" already have. But it's a meaningless request borne of laziness and fatigue. And it's triply silly because neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will accept that.
I sometimes think that maybe Israel should annex the West Bank and offer all inhabitants Israeli citizenship. The terror gangs wouldn't accept it anyway, and would therefore make themselves a fair target by any standards. On the other hand, I have no problem with those Arabs who wish to coexist with us. Our culture is strong enough (except for Avrum Burg, as implied by his article) to accommodate this.

Communication

09-18-2003, 11:03 AM

Hey Mil!

I'm placing this news flash here because this is the thread where I mentioned the possible release of Marwan. This is the ONLY guy who could take support away from Arafat.

Channel 10: Imprisoned Tanzim leader Marwan Barghouti on list of prisoners to be exchanged in swap with Hezbollah

Ha'aretz daily-

Mil

09-18-2003, 01:08 PM

REALLY!!!!!!! I haven't seen anything yet. In any case even if Bourgutti is released he will not be in either the West Bank or Gaza.

sharonbn

09-18-2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by nuttie
I sometimes think that maybe Israel should annex the West Bank and offer all inhabitants Israeli citizenship. The terror gangs wouldn't accept it anyway, and would therefore make themselves a fair target by any standards. On the other hand, I have no problem with those Arabs who wish to coexist with us. Our culture is strong enough (except for Avrum Burg, as implied by his article) to accommodate this.

I believe that your suggestion is the worse option Israel could adopt. This step means Israel will no longer have a Jewish majority. How long do u think will it take before the Law of return will be abolished? This will spell the end of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish nation.

The only solution is an independant Palestinian state. This state will also be the homeland of all Palestinian refugees - hence the solution for the "right of return".

I personally wouldn't object if Baqa el garbia, Um el fahem and surrounding Arab settlements will be annexed to Palestine, in exchange for Jerusalem, Gush etzion, Maale edomim, etc

Palestine is where Arabs reside. Israel is where Jews reside - that the rough plan.

humus_sapiens

09-19-2003, 02:11 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
I believe that your suggestion is the worse option Israel could adopt. This step means Israel will no longer have a Jewish majority. How long do u think will it take before the Law of return will be abolished? This will spell the end of Israel as the homeland of the Jewish nation.

The only solution is an independant Palestinian state. This state will also be the homeland of all Palestinian refugees - hence the solution for the "right of return".

I personally wouldn't object if Baqa el garbia, Um el fahem and surrounding Arab settlements will be annexed to Palestine, in exchange for Jerusalem, Gush etzion, Maale edomim, etc

Palestine is where Arabs reside. Israel is where Jews reside - that the rough plan.

Sharonbn,
Sorry to disappoint you, but your solution doesn't work long term:
from http://www.psreview.org/issues/2003/july/ouma.review.html

The Population Resource Center published statistics indicating that in 2000, the total fertility rates (TFR) in the Gaza Strip were the highest in the world at 7.4 births per women, the TFR in Palestine was 5.9 while in Israel it was only 3.0. Within Israel, Jewish women have a TFR of 2.7 compared with 4.8 for Arab women.[3]

So, what are we gonna do? Convert to Islam, accept dhimmitude, or assert our right to exist as a nation in our own homeland? Oh, by the way, in case you haven't noticed: it doesn't work short term either...

Mediocrates

09-19-2003, 06:11 AM

In that scenario one could plausibly 'incite' them to eventually move over the border to their new homeland. But clearly the PLO and Arafat would never accept an independent Palestine.

That's right, Arafat will never accept an independent Palestine. Do you know why? The day there is one all the neighboring states will expel their own Palestinian populations. This is why the so called 'camps' in Jordan, in Syria and in Lebanon exist. They are queues to push all their Palestinians back across the border into Palestine or Israel or whatever the hell state exists there. This is an extension of their policies to to give up on Gaza and the West Bank. This is why Egypt and Jordan packed as many Palestinians into those areas and then incited Israel to march across the border to claim dominion over them and why those countries expressed no interest in getting those lands back.

They exported their underclass management problem to the Israelis. So the day that Arfat declares Arafatistan the 2/3rds of all Palestinians living outside Gaza and the West Bank will be marched back across the border. This will cleanse those countries of poor miserable people who have been kept in veal pens by the UN for this purpose and it will double the population of Palestine from 1.8 million to 3.5 million overnight. And that is a human rights catastrophe waiting to happen. And one which clearly the UN and its puppets in the corridors of European foreign policy are clearly ready to blame on the Israelis.

Mediocrates

09-21-2003, 07:38 AM

Setting aside for the moment whether this answers any questions or solves any real problems, here is an article from Foreign Policy magazine that attempts to map out what many people, yours truly included have talked about as a possible course of action for settlement. I think I talked about this over a year ago but my numbers were about 9% instead of 5%.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/story.php?storyID=13826#

Basically it looks at the facts on the ground. "Settlers" are overwhelmingly suburbanites on or near the Green Line. One could adjust the final borders along those parameters and emrace most of the settlers as well. The point is that they themselves would probably not resist. For the others, a much thornier problem exists though. I will say I don't understand the last map in the article though.

I will say also, that this like the thousands of proposals before it makes not a single demand and has not a single expectation of the Palestinians, but, I maintain that Israel should not have any policies that make any assumptions about the PA & co., anyway.

Communication

09-23-2003, 07:17 AM

If this is the goal, it will have to be done unilaterally. You posted an article from MEMRI, Medio, containing Abu Ala's own words about PA goals and why they could not accept the Clinton plan. They make no bones about the fact that the goal is all of Israel, even today, and that if necessary, it will be done in stages. They refuse to compromise on a right of return, they refuse to compromise on even Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem or control over the temple mount (joint control or internationalizing Jerusalem is out of the question). Abu Ala even says that the greatest accomplishment of Oslo, was the naturalization of some 150,000 Palestinians into Israel. He is VERY clear, so at least don't want until the end for the negotiations to break down.

As Jews, it should be very clear to us what the Palestinians are doing. It is a question of identity, how victimization is internalized in that identity, not wanting to accept an absolute loss, and the creation of cultural myths about redemption. In 100 years, they will still be dreaming about reconquering that land.

Anyway, here is a good article about the strategic implications of the three main settlements outlined in the map you provided:

The argument over the 2-mile detour around the Jewish West Bank town of Ariel is the main talking point. However, altogether three deviations are incorporated in the project including Beit Arieh and the Palestinian university of al Quds in Jerusalem.

For the Ariel cluster, options have been developed. It will be left outside the barrier and given boosted defenses – mobile barriers, sensors and other obstructions, and a detachment of special forces from the already stretched and under-budgeted IDF. Alternatively, the main fence will have a gap opposite the town. Neither option promises the 18,000-member community proper protection.

All three controversial fence sections lead into the country’s most densely populated heartland and are designed to impede the path of terrorists from their West Bank bases.

The ministers among themselves call the Ariel enclave “the breach”. A glance at any map shows its strategic location 12 miles inside the West Bank and opposite Israel’s narrowest and most heavily populated waist line. That line measures 10 miles across, from Green Line to the Mediterranean Sea. It hits Herzliyah, a town roughly between Netanya and Tel Aviv.

Ariel commands access to the Trans-Israeli Highway that links Israel lengthwise from north to south, Kfar Saba, Petah Tikva and Rosh Ha’Ayin 15 miles away. All these names are familiar to television viewers as the scenes of mass-casualty attacks by Palestinian suicide bombers coming in unhindered from the West Bank.

Beit Arieh to the south is less that 3 miles east of the Green Line. It is the gateway to the heavily industrialized Lod region 11 miles away, Ben Gurion international airport 10 miles away and the same distance from the big US Marine base secretly under construction at Nachshonim.

Beit Arieh is just over 5 miles from the Trans-Israeli Highway, roughly the same distance as Manhattan to Long Island.

In geographic terms the two deviations from the barrier’s Green Line’s course are tiny. However they are the keys to defending from West Bank Palestinian terrorists Israel’s most strategically vital and heavily populated and industrialized center of gravity as well as its national and international transport lifelines.

Al Quds University on the southern fringe of municipal Jerusalem has the bad fortune to straddle the roundabout routes used by terrorists from Bethlehem and Hebron heading Jerusalem.

The need for obstacles at these three entry points only arose after Palestinian killers used them repeatedly to access Israel’s homeland. The fence’s route as a whole is therefore designed not merely to protect the 18,000 residents of Ariel and its satellites, but the roughly one million Israelis living in the vulnerable population centers to the west of the barrier.

Pressure from Washington to flatten the line and eliminate the three pockets into the West Bank will place the entire defensive dimension of the security barrier in question. It would leave doors conveniently open for mass killers to reach their softest targets.

http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=568