For those who still dream of Greater Israel [Archive]

Communication

08-31-2003, 12:56 PM

A FAILED ISRAELI SOCIETY COLLAPSES WHILE ITS LEADERS
REMAIN SILENT
By Avraham Burg, Labor Party Knesset member
The FORWARD
August 29, 2003 Issue

The Zionist revolution has always rested on two
pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership.
Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli
nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and
on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such,
the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our
doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the
last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish
state here, but it will be a different sort, strange
and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is
needed is a new vision of a just society and the
political will to implement it. Nor is this merely an
internal Israeli affair. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel
is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed
and speak out. If the pillar collapses, the upper
floors will come crashing down.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with
Arik Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain
silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has
suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to
say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we
have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvelous
theater and a strong national currency. Our Jewish
minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the
Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish
people did not survive for two millennia in order to
pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or
anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light
unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish
survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by
an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf
both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state
lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis
are coming to understand this as they ask their
children where they expect to live in 25 years.
Children who are honest admit, to their parents'
shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end
of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank
settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical
landscape is charming. From the window you can gaze
through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see
the occupation. Traveling on the fast highway that
takes you from Ramot on Jerusalem's northern edge to
Gilo on the southern edge, a 12-minute trip that
skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian
roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating
experience of the despised Arab who must creep for
hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to
him. One road for the occupier, one road for the
occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads
and swallow their shame and anger forever, it won't
work. A structure built on human callousness will
inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment
well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing
like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen
continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars
below are collapsing.

We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of
the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don't hear
the cries of the abused woman living next door or the
single mother struggling to support her children in
dignity. We don't even bother to count the women
murdered by their husbands.

Israel, having ceased to care about the children of
the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they
come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the
centers of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves
to Allah in our places of recreation, because their
own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in
our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites,
because they have children and parents at home who are
hungry and humiliated.

We could kill a thousand ringleaders and engineers a
day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders
come up from below from the wells of hatred and anger,
from the "infrastructures" of injustice and moral
corruption.

If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and
immutable, I would be silent. But things could be
different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

Here is what the prime minister should say to the
people:

The time for illusions is over. The time for decisions
has arrived. We love the entire land of our
forefathers and in some other time we would have
wanted to live here alone. But that will not happen.
The Arabs, too, have dreams and needs.

Between the Jordan and the Mediterranean there is no
longer a clear Jewish majority. And so, fellow
citizens, it is not possible to keep the whole thing
without paying a price. We cannot keep a Palestinian
majority under an Israeli boot and at the same time
think ourselves the only democracy in the Middle East.
There cannot be democracy without equal rights for all
who live here, Arab as well as Jew. We cannot keep the
territories and preserve a Jewish majority in the
world's only Jewish state not by means that are humane
and moral and Jewish.

Do you want the greater Land of Israel? No problem.
Abandon democracy. Let's institute an efficient system
of racial separation here, with prison camps and
detention villages. Qalqilya Ghetto and Gulag Jenin.

Do you want a Jewish majority? No problem. Either put
the Arabs on railway cars, buses, camels and donkeys
and expel them en masse or separate ourselves from
them absolutely, without tricks and gimmicks. There is
no middle path. We must remove all the settlements all
of them and draw an internationally recognized border
between the Jewish national home and the Palestinian
national home. The Jewish Law of Return will apply
only within our national home, and their right of
return will apply only within the borders of the
Palestinian state.

Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the
greater Land of Israel, to the last settlement and
outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to
everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will
be that those who did not want a Palestinian state
alongside us will have one in our midst, via the
ballot box.

That's what the prime minister should say to the
people. He should present the choices forthrightly:
Jewish racialism or democracy. Settlements or hope for
both peoples. False visions of barbed wire, roadblocks
and suicide bombers, or a recognized international
border between two states and a shared capital in
Jerusalem.

But there is no prime minister in Jerusalem. The
disease eating away at the body of Zionism has already
attacked the head. David Ben-Gurion sometimes erred,
but he remained straight as an arrow. When Menachem
Begin was wrong, nobody impugned his motives. No
longer. Polls published last weekend showed that a
majority of Israelis do not believe in the personal
integrity of the prime minister yet they trust his
political leadership. In other words, Israel's current
prime minister personally embodies both halves of the
curse: suspect personal morals and open disregard for
the law combined with the brutality of occupation and
the trampling of any chance for peace. This is our
nation, these its leaders. The inescapable conclusion
is that the Zionist revolution is dead.

Why, then, is the opposition so quiet? Perhaps because
it's summer, or because they are tired, or because
some would like to join the government at any price,
even the price of participating in the sickness. But
while they dither, the forces of good lose hope.

This is the time for clear alternatives. Anyone who
declines to present a clear-cut position black or
white is in effect collaborating in the decline. It is
not a matter of Labor versus Likud or right versus
left, but of right versus wrong, acceptable versus
unacceptable. The law-abiding versus the lawbreakers.
What's needed is not a political replacement for the
Sharon government but a vision of hope, an alternative
to the destruction of Zionism and its values by the
deaf, dumb and callous.

Israel's friends abroad Jewish and non-Jewish alike,
presidents and prime ministers, rabbis and lay people
should choose as well. They must reach out and help
Israel to navigate the road map toward our national
destiny as a light unto the nations and a society of
peace, justice and equality.

Translated by J.J. Goldberg.

Avraham Burg was speaker of Israel's Knesset from 1999
to 2003 and is a former chairman of the Jewish Agency
for Israel. He is currently a Labor Party Knesset
member. This essay is adapted by the author from an
article that appeared in Yediot Aharonot.

Communication

08-31-2003, 04:45 PM

Separation now

By Amram Mitzna

It's hard to say that the liquidation of an
arch-terrorist causes anyone in Israel to shed a
tear. They are despicable, balking at nothing to
murder innocent Israelis, and therefore they
deserve to die. But that is not the question. The
only question we should ask ourselves is, what is
best for us. Is the government's campaign of
assassinations now being waged against the
terrorist organizations serving the Israeli
interest and contributing to the enhancement of

security?

Voicing the slogan we all
remember, "Make it possible for
the IDF [Israel Defense Forces]
to win," Ariel Sharon assured
the public that he was the only
one capable of defeating
terrorism. He won the elections
but has not won against the
terrorists. Nor has the IDF. On

the contrary: Over the past three years, the
security of Israel's citizens has deteriorated
to a level that is without parallel in the
country's history. This is the reality - but it
doesn't have to be that way. Leaders are
elected in order to change the reality, in
order to lead, not to yield to the dictates of
someone else, least of all terrorist
organizations. But that is just what Sharon has
done.

The national interest of the State of Israel -
and there are now those on the right who admit
this - is separation from the Palestinians.
This is the only way to ensure that Israel will
be able to remain a viable Jewish state. We are
currently at a critical point that will decide
whether Israel will continue to exist as a
democratic Jewish state or become a binational
state in which there will be an Arab majority
within a few years.

The original sin of indecision can be traced to
1967. The Six-Day War was a tremendous military
victory but a total political-security failure.
The first person to grasp this was David
Ben-Gurion. He, like many others, was thrilled
and moved at the return to the lands of our
forefathers. However, as a leader bearing
national responsibility for the security of
Israel and the future of the Zionist movement,
Ben-Gurion was able - in contrast to all the
leaders since - to look beyond the horizon, and
called on the government of Israel to leave the
new territories.

Years passed and Israel became ever more mired
in Judea, Samaria and Gaza. By now we are so
mired that we are no longer capable of lifting
our heads and understanding the reality in
which we are living. For years, successive
governments deceived the public by leading it
to believe that holding onto Judea, Samaria and
Gaza is a security necessity, that the
territories are a national asset and that any
concession in them will be detrimental to
security. Yitzhak Rabin decided to snap us out
of this illusionary dream. Rabin was hardly a
member of Peace Now, but he understood what the
terrorist organizations also understand and
what, unfortunately, the government of Ariel
Sharon has yet to understand: that the
continued confrontation with the Palestinians
and the continued Israeli control of Judea,
Samaria and Gaza means the liquidation of
Zionism and the end of the Jewish state. He
understood that control of Judea, Samaria and
Gaza is not an asset but a burden that is
putting our continued survival at risk.

It follows that agreement to the establishment
of a Palestinian state is neither a concession
nor a surrender. It is an asset. There will be
no Jewish state without the existence of a
Palestinian state alongside it. This has to be
the goal and any government policy has to be
examined in its light - including the policy of
targeted assassinations, which, I regret to
say, is the only policy now guiding the
government of Israel.

There is no doubt the cold-blooded murder of
children and of innocent civilians is maddening
and infuriating and that one's primary instinct
is to react. To take revenge. To teach them a
lesson. To make them as afraid as we are. To
make them run. But this is no more than a
dream. In reality, every liquidation engenders
a terrorist attack and more casualties. Instead
of looking ahead, as true leaders should, and
acting to advance the Israeli interest -
namely, separation from the Palestinians - the
government is being sucked into the vicious
circle of terrorism-reaction-terrorism.
Amazingly, however, the policy of liquidations
has not succeeded in vanquishing the
terrorists. In the test of practicality, the
security of Israel's citizens has not improved.
The policy of targeted assassinations has
failed and the time has come to admit it.

We have reached the moment of decision. I expect
Sharon to behave like a leader and understand
that the responsibility for the fate of Israel
rests on his shoulders. Separation from the
Palestinians is the only goal that should be
dictating Israeli policy, and we have no time
to amuse ourselves with the thought that we
will succeed in defeating terrorism by means of
military force. Anyone who says we will is
deceiving the public. If Sharon is right and
"there is no one to talk to" on the other side,
then we have to separate unilaterally, and the
sooner the better.

The writer is a Labor member of Knesset.

Mediocrates

08-31-2003, 07:54 PM

This is nonsense. I have 4 pages of handwritten notes I'm compiling into an essay to refute this. It will take a few days and when I'm done it's going out to every policy relevant contact I can think of. The short and the long of it is that Israel must develop a policy independent of any expectations of performance by the PLO and it should formulate it strictly in accordance with following rule of law. Which translates to calling treason treason and sedition sedition. Instead of worrying about a one state or two state or fake state solution. Take the entire discussion off the table completely. Have a single message: Any terrorist attack will be met with ultimate force. Why? Res Ipsa Loquitor.

Take right of return completely off the table forever. When the perpetrator is dead then one can only go against the next best thing, and that is the family. Move all family members to border areas with all Arab states as a human buffer zone and bar them and all of their decendants in perpetuity from ever settling in Israel or Palestine ever.

Create a harsh yet finite response for every attack - say 3 days of 100% all out IDF action followed by one day in the future chosen at random. Apply the same rules to ANY state shown to actively support terrorism.

The last leg of the policy assumes a militia. For example, instead of pulling back settlements, arm the settlers. Give each one a shoulder fired rocket and a gun and when they protect themselves claim simply you can't find them. The key problem is that Palestinians have IT ALL on the line and are willing to lose it all. The Israelis have to put their very existence on the line now and have to be willing, truly willing to lose it all to save themselves. Without it Israel is slowly dying. Israel is not the Red Coats they are the Minutemen. They need to flip this argument around onthe PLO and they have to be unafraid. If it means it all goes up in flames then so be it but the alternatve is slow death.

Sharon is becoming a failure in this regard. Negotiations assume that your partner is interested in negotiating but all the mamby pambying the world attempting to show the PA as unreliable only shows the Israelis to be weak and vacillating.

More to follow. I will refine this and it will go to the MFA, the White House, PNAC and its members personally.

alexbmn

08-31-2003, 09:24 PM

posting Labor party articles? They've been marginalized even in Israel

frizzer1

08-31-2003, 10:42 PM

I don't think it's all nonsense.As a matter of fact a lot of it makes sense.
But there is the usual fatal flaw, and that is until the arabs accept Israel's right to exist,it makes no difference if Israel dismantles the settlements,withdraws to pre 1967 borders or even treats the palestinians like long lost relatives.
Once the arabs truly accept israel and forego the use of violence forever,only then can israel afford to take the steps recommended in the post.

Communication

09-01-2003, 05:30 AM

In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.

old-reb

09-01-2003, 05:48 AM

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 07:15 AM

Originally posted by frizzer1
I don't think it's all nonsense.As a matter of fact a lot of it makes sense.
But there is the usual fatal flaw, and that is until the arabs accept Israel's right to exist,it makes no difference if Israel dismantles the settlements,withdraws to pre 1967 borders or even treats the palestinians like long lost relatives.
Once the arabs truly accept israel and forego the use of violence forever,only then can israel afford to take the steps recommended in the post.

Until unless - - make no difference. There is no such thing as any solution as long as the Palestinians aren't beholden to law. No one cares if they truly accept anything other responsibility for THEIR OWN actions and policies. There is NO requirement for Israel to bother with any unilateral policy or action until then.

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Communication
In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.

"They" already have. But it's a meaningless request borne of laziness and fatigue. And it's triply silly because neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians will accept that.

Communication

09-01-2003, 07:40 AM

actually, the Palestinians are starting to push more and more for a bi-national state, with the right of return as an alternative. They are using Lebanon as a model, which has resulted in the emmigration of close to 900,000 Christians over the years and the naturalization of some 300,000 Syrian Muslims, thereby altering the balance of the Christian/Muslim population. All of this is happening under the guise and ideal of western "multiculturalism," which would be positive, if not for the fact that the end result is the further Islamization of the ME.

But the point is that we are at a cross-roads. Israel cannot keep the Palestinians under occupation forever and Israel is losing the PR battle. The latter is causing the Palestinians to increase their hopes for regaining all of historic Palestine, so if Israel continues to wait for the Palestinians to come to terms with its existence, they will actually decrease their chances of retaining Israel as a Jewish state.

Communication

09-01-2003, 08:03 AM

The Lebanon model. I urge you to read this to understand the parallels between the western reaction to the Lebanese conflict and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and what the future will hold if decisive action isnt taken soon to seperate the Jews from the Muslims in the territories:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/8b5/8b5040.html

abu afak

09-01-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Communication
In the very near future, people around the world are going to call for a bi-national state.

Many Anti-semites and Anti-Israelers are already calling for a 'Bi-National State'.
(ie the Rabid Anti-semite Israel Shamir)
Understanding, of course, demographically, that the State will Be an Arab/Muslim majority in short order; Free to change the Laws constitution, open 'Israel' to even further Arab immigration .. and rather quickly force an end to Israel in any Jewish sense.. or in any Jews sense.

Lebanon has been purged of about 1 milion of it's Christians by the Muslims/Muslim-Syrian Pupppet Goverment there.
The Lebanese 'Civil War' started soon after the arrival of Arafat and co. in 1970 after their failed attempt to overthrow King Hussein and rule the other/real Palestinian state... Jordan
(see 'Black September')

Anyone proposing this 'solution' is a mental midget or someone who wants to see the end of Israel.

MGB8

09-01-2003, 01:14 PM

The problem with Mitna and his lefty co-patriots is that they DO NOT THINK ABOUT "the day after."

They think that "give them what they (say that they) want, and they will stop attacking us."

That is possible. History (and polls) tells us, however, that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY.

What happens if we give the PLO their state today, and we get rocket attacks tomorrow? You have to admit that this is possible...in fact, considering the mission of the PLO, Hamas, etc (the destruction of Israel) and the poll numbers which show that the vast majority of Pal-Arabs still want this, and that most Arab states also do not recognize Israel's right to exists (and most Arabs, too, regardless of nationality)....what does Israel do? Re-Invade? How many die then?

Or, what if attacks stop for a while, but with open boarders, they build up their forces (like they did in 1993 - 2000 when Israel STILL HAD MILITARY CONTROL - mostly) but with no impediments add Chemical and Biological weapons, more accurate missles, and bigger warheads?

What if they decide to rip up the "peace of paper" and attack, but claim that its just "Terrorist factions" that they couldn't possibly stop - like Pakistan/India?

What do you do then, Communication? Mitna?

And what happens as a reaction to what you do - regional war??

These scenarios are THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOMES!!!! Allowing them to come to pass is INCOMPETENCE, at best, and TRAITOROUS TO YOUR PEOPLE, at worst.

ibrodsky

09-01-2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
Many Anti-semites and Anti-Israelers are already calling for a 'Bi-National State'.
(ie the Rabid Anti-semite Israel Shamir)
Understanding, of course, demographically, that the State will Be an Arab/Muslim majority in short order; Free to change the Laws constitution, open 'Israel' to even further Arab immigration .. and rather quickly force an end to Israel in any Jewish sense.. or in any Jews sense.

Lebanon has been purged of about 1 milion of it's Christians by the Muslims/Muslim-Syrian Pupppet Goverment there.
The Lebanese 'Civil War' started soon after the arrival of Arafat and co. in 1970 after their failed attempt to overthrow King Hussein and rule the other/real Palestinian state... Jordan
(see 'Black September')

Anyone proposing this 'solution' is a mental midget or someone who wants to see the end of Israel.

Right. In fact, they call for a "secular" bi-national state--as if Islam has been reconciled with Western principles and values.

In reality, the plan is to first delegitimze Israel as a Jewish state. Then flood that state with Muslims. Then suddenly demand "true democracy" in the form of a Muslim-dominated government.

There is no lie, no ruse, no slander, and no evil act that Israel's Arab enemies won't try to destroy Israel.

Communication

09-01-2003, 02:46 PM

Ok, let's talk about our options here:

1. continue on with the road map in the hopes that we can reach an agreement with the PA.

2. transfer

3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

4. unilateral seperation.

5. Other suggestions.

Israel is receiving the most presure to pursue option number 1. I wrote a whole post on why option 1 won't work, namely that the terror groups have more credability than the PA with the Palestinian people and the PA itself is divided on what would be acceptable upon final neogtiation. If you look at the history of Oslo, the road map is a repeat of that. Both sides were urged to move forards despite breaches on each side, until we reached Camp David and then Taba, only for everything to break down and the violence started. If you look at what was achieved at Taba, where Israel went even further in their concessions to the PA, you will see that despite all the rhetoric about non-continguous land and such other excuses, the real reasons for the break down had to do with control over holy sites, but even more so, the right of return. And this is so even with Israel having granted a limlited right of return under a family reunification program. Still no deal. Why? Because Arafat did not want to be a martyr for peace. He does not want to end up like Sadat. With Nabil Shaath saying that implicit in the road map is the Palestinian right of return, is their any doubt that they are foreshadowing another break down exactly like what we saw the last time?

2. Out of the question. The world will turn on Israel the next day and Israel become even more of a pariah state than it is now.

3. International condemnation over Operation Defensive Shield, and it still didn't result in a total dismantling of the terror infrastructure. The terrorists have gone underground, and with each one that is killed, some 10+ civilians are injured. Without the hope for a better future, a new crop of terrorists will take their place.

4. Unilateral seperation involves facing the settlers. Perhaps they could be temprorarily jailed, assuming that Israel has the space for them. The wall is completed. And yes, rockets can fly over fences and then Israel still has to worry about the Israeli Arabs. However, they will be in a defensive position, once the occupation ends. They will therefore have a greater ability to defend themselves against attacks. IN addtion, Israel can take some additional land to secure itself starting around Netanya on down, including the most strategic hill locations. Israel can take land from the local Palestinians and offer them money in return for moving further out into the West Bank. Yes, Israel will receive an outcry from the world for this, but if it is done at the same time that settlements are abandoned, it will be more justifiable from a position of defense. If Hezbollah wanted to, they could probably lob over a few chemical warheads right now. At some point, it just doesn't matter how much land is salvaged.

5. Let's here them....

I'm ready to hash it out, and then afterward I want all your lazy internet hooked a$$es to work with me to send out a statement to as many news sources and political represenatives that we can. I will help work on the statement and provide all the e-mail addresses.

frizzer1

09-01-2003, 03:58 PM

I can't think of any workable solution.
To do that I would have to be able to look into the hearts and minds of the palestinians and all the arab states and even the muslims in the rest of the world.

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 04:08 PM

Option 6

Take all the other options off the table and raise the stakes of national survival up to the stratosphere, e.g. crush the terrorists utterly and then talk about the other 5 options.

Mediocrates

09-01-2003, 04:11 PM

Until Israel pushes ALL of its chips into the pile and demostrates to the world they are willing to lose it all even to the point of national extinction no one will take them seriously and will take their negotiations for weakness. The world hates Israel. Get over it and move from a policy of strength. And they have to make it crystal clear that if they are going down then so are as many of those muhfukaz and they can take with them.

alexbmn

09-01-2003, 04:14 PM

ok number three has never been attempted. Operation Defensive Shield was a two week joke that left Hamas 100 percent intact.Unilateral separation can only be attempted after step three because otherwise it wouldbe a defeatist retreat. Anyway it doesnt matter .If Israel wants to survive as a Jewish state as it is it's raison d'etre it will have to remove the Arabs because in a few generations they will a majority. Not democratic not nice,no choice. By the way USA is already a good "binational",no, multinational state. No need for Israel to turn into Israstine with the pact of dhimmi intact.

humus_sapiens

09-01-2003, 09:31 PM

At this point in time we are talking about Israel's mere survival as a nation state (AKA Jewish National Home, promised to us by the League of Nations and Britain as the Mandate holder). The myth of "Greater Israel" is another Arabian fairytale to brainwash jihadees.

How do we survive in the neighboorhood where we are ostracized, in the world as ani-semitic and indifferent to Jewish blood as ever?

Whatever is the solution, it won't come from defeatist and confused Avodah. Unfortunately, Jewish leftists gave up on 2-millenia-old idea of returning to Zion. Whatever we do, we must talk from the position of strength, because we have all the rights, including moral and legal.

- Israel is a legitimate state, the other side is not, and it's not our fault. Blame those who started the war of 1948.

- Israel have absorbed Jewish refugees. The Arabs have rejected theirs. Too bad, but it's also not our fault and should not be our concern.

- Israel made peace every time when met serious partner on the other side. The Arabs made war after war and lost. It's pay up time, baby. If it is the losing side who gets the trophy, then return the territories... only after America returns the strip from CA - TX to Mexico and Russia returns Kaliningrad/Konigsberg to Germany, etc.

The first order of business is to eliminate the dead-end terrorists and destroy corrupt terrorist infrastructure. That will show both friends and the enemies, that we are DEADLY serious.

For the long term I am really in favor of Steve Metch's plan: for every attack, some pre-announced part of the disputed territory becomes ours forever.

BTW, the transfer should not necessarily be brutal and Nazi-style scene. I believe it can be compensated and humane. Populations get tranferred for less improtant reasons: dambs, roads, economics.

Equating Jews to Nazis is doubly offensive. Actually, the never-ending wars of all kinds: open, covert, guerilla/intifadah/terrorism, attrition, propaganda, boycotts, forced upon Jews, are attempts to finish the Holocaust. Israel is our best insurance against another round.

Of course, it would be nice to have secure borders from Mediterranean to Euphrates... Another globe, anyone?

Isiah 2:4

09-02-2003, 01:49 AM

If they withdrew and Hamas et al continued attacks and maybe with even bigger weapons then Israel could go in a completely destroy them. It would be a legitimate response in any ones eyes.

If attacks did continue after a military pull back from all of the territories, the world would see that it is not a Palestine they want, but a Muslim state in place of Israel, but with all the nice things israel has brought to them.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 04:12 AM

No no no. All that is, is a search for approval and you will never get it. You can't wait to be slaughtered in order to justify to the people who hate you and want you dead anyway that you're going to strike back. Israel needs to pursue it's own policy that serves it's own ends and ignore what the PA claims it will or will not do.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 04:40 AM

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enZone=Views&enDisplay=view&enPage=BlankPage&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Views^l92

Stand with Israel
By Jon Kyl August 31, 2003

Jon Kyl is a U.S. Senator from Arizona and a long standing expert on counterterrorism, defense and intelligence issues.

For a tiny country, roughly one-third the size of New York State, Israel has found itself at the center of some of the world's most difficult crises. It's a constant target of terrorist attacks. Its existence is often cited as the basis of tensions between Arab nations and the United States and, sometimes, even with countries in Europe. It's not unreasonable, therefore, for people to ask if Israel is really worth all the time and attention it's given.

No doubt many Americans are frustrated by repeated stories of failed efforts to reach a peaceful settlement between Israelis and Palestinians - with both sides blaming the other. But Israel has far more motivation to obtain peace in the Middle East than do its Arab neighbors, who support the Palestinians.

In fact, polls consistently show that an overwhelming majority of Israelis support the peace process and would make significant concessions to the Palestinians in order to achieve it. They don't want their children to be killed in suicide attacks while riding buses, or going to a disco, or shopping at a mall.

Still, it's hard to make peace with an entity - the Palestinian Authority - that condones terrorist attacks within your territory (the equivalent of America negotiating terms with Osama bin Laden). Or when your primary peace partner (until very recently Yasser Arafat) aids global terrorists and is allied with countries that refuse to even acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

By contrast, many Arab nations appear to lack any motivation to support the peace process, since criticism of Israel has proved an effective outlet for pent-up frustrations and resentment. Osama bin Laden became a late convert to the anti-Israeli chorus precisely because he understood how effective that rallying cry would be to his cause. Like so many before him, bin Laden blamed Israel (and its chief ally, the United States) for the misery and poverty that inflicts the Arab masses, and held Israel to blame for the chronic violence that infests the region. Much of the state-sponsored Arab media echo such claims, thus further inflaming the so-called "Arab street."

Of course, these claims are nonsense. Israel has been in existence for a little more than 50 years. Poverty, human rights abuses, and tyranny were firmly entrenched in the Arab world long before that. It was not Israel that encouraged Syria to invade its neighbor, Lebanon, or Saddam Hussein to invade its neighbors, Iran or Kuwait. Israel does not launch attacks targeted toward innocent civilians, though it does respond, as we would, to suicide attacks carried about against innocent Israeli citizens, including women and children.

But there is another reason why we must continue to stand with Israel. Israel, like the United States, represents something that our enemies cannot tolerate: a thriving democracy which, in Israel's case, is right in their midst.

Israel, in fact, is the only democracy in that region. It is the only Middle East nation that accords rights to women and elects its leaders by a true democratic vote. Israeli schools do not teach their children to root for the destruction of Arab countries, or compare the United States to Satan. The Israeli media is free to write and report what it wants. Israeli citizens can say what they think, can denounce their government policies, can state protests, can read and write whatever they please.

In short, Israel stands as a total repudiation of the practices of most every regime that surrounds it. To acknowledge Israel's right to exist, therefore, is to give legitimacy to a government that allows its people to live in freedom, in stark contrast to the oppression and persecution that many Arab citizens experience every day of their lives.

If Israel were to disappear tomorrow, the antagonism for Western values would remain. The United States, in fact, might be an even greater target of directed hatred than it is today. And many Arabs would continue to suffer under corrupt incompetent, or brutal regimes.

So it's in our interest to stand with Israel, just as it has stood with us. To abandon the Israeli people would be a concession to all those who hated the democratic values that they represent.

(Originally appeared in the Casa Grande Valley Newspaper The Enterprise)

Kapiti

09-02-2003, 04:46 AM

Communication - When you post some as challenging to the mainstream on this forum as the opening two posts you can call me an arse any time. :)

"If Hezbollah wanted to, they could probably lob over a few chemical warheads right now. At some point, it just doesn't matter how much land is salvaged" A very valid point. Does holding the land really make you more secure ?? Maybe in some small minority of areas but certainly mostly not at all.

There are many on this forum but fortunately only a small minority of Israelis who would not give up all the WB and G even if they really could be guaranteed peace and future security. The first question you should ask anyone who you ask to contribute to finding a solution is this question.

If someone says they would not be prepared to give up all the land then it will certainly make finding a solution that will keep that person happy so much more difficult. I would suggest if you are trying to brainstorm some solution the people who think this way will be a very negative influence on what ever ideas you are proposing. Finding a solution which maintains future peace and security is hard enough, let a lone a solution which caters for the extra desires of additional religious land ownership.

I am not suggesting that a final settlement must follow the 67 lines but rather any final settlement must negotiate from those 67 lines.

I don't see the importance of right of return as you do. I think also the international community would accept the impossibility or at least difficulty of this before they would accept that the land cannot go back to the 67 boundaries.

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 04:56 AM

Thank you for the invitation, Communication.

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
- We made peace every time we have met serious leader on the other side. The Arabs made war after war and lost. Pay up time, baby.

Sorry to burst your bubble, humus_sapiens, but Israel didn't rush to make peace whenever it met a serious Arab leader:
- In 1971, UN special envoy Gunar Yaring made several visits between Cairo and Jerusalem. He carried a peace proposal from the new Egyptian president, Anuar Sadat, to the Israeli gov't. The proposal included Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai in exchange for peace. This is the same agreement Israel signed with Egypt seven years later. Israeli PM Golda Meir turned down the proposal. Some historians say this decision caused the Egyptians to launch the Yom Kippur war, as Sadat saw no alternative to regain the territories he lost in 1967.

When Sadat was about to visit Jerusalem in 1977, he requested to meet with Meir. She was in the US at the time and was flown back to Israel on the same day Sadat came. When he met Meir, Sadat asked one question: "Why didn't you agree to my peace proposal back in 71?" Meir looked at him for a long time and then said "I didn't believe you were sincere"

- In 1985, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres met with Jordanian king Hussein in London. The two held secret meetings for one week. In the end, they signed the "London agreement" which stated that Israel would withdraw from the territories it took from Jordan in 1967, in exchange for peace. When Peres presented the agreement to the gov't, PM Shamir rejected it.

In this agreement, king Hussein accepted the role of official representative of the Palestinian people before Israel. I believe Hussein is infinitely better for Israel than anyone else Israel dealt with ever since. king Hussein accepted the "headache" of ruling and dealing with the Palestinians (Something Sadat was unwilling to undertake). king Hussein displayed in the past he is better suited than Israel in dealing with Palestinian terrorism. Up until London agreement, Jordanian gov't maintained official representation in WB. Jordanian gov't administrated the education and welfare systems in WB. After the rejection of the London agreement, Hussein closed all his offices in WB and ceased his involvement in the Palestinian issue.

- Israel didn't implement all the requirements it took under the Oslo agreement. Mainly a three phase withdrawal. In fact, Wye agreement from 1997 is just rescheduling of Oslo requirements which Israel failed to implement on time. and if you think Israel implemented Wye agreement – guess again. PM Ehud Barak negotiated a deal with Arafat that discarded Wye agreement in favor of pushing for the permanent agreement.

So you see: Israel does have bad credit history when it comes to diplomatic agreements, (just like the Palestinians).

On a general note, I wish to say I object to the historical view expressed by humus_sapiens and others here that Palestinians are blood thirsty monsters seeking to kill every single Jew and Israel only wanted peace and wouldn’t hurt a fly. In the twenty years between the 67 war and the first Intifadah, the Palestinians were relatively quiet, yet Israel made absolutely no serious attempt at resolving their problems. Israelis simply believed they can truly rule a foreign people forever. Just like the French believed in Algeria, the British in Ireland, the Belgians in Kongo, etc.

History shows us that in the vast majority of cases, it is an uprising of the oppressed that drives away the foreign empire. Governments simply don’t like to withdraw from occupied territories on their own initiative. They do manage to make up very creative excuses for remaining in place.

If the Palestinians didn’t start the first Intifadah in Dec. 1987, would Israel propose a partition of the land? would Israel make any proposal to solve the problem of 3+ million refugees living in impossible conditions under its rule? I don’t think so. Like humus_sapiens said, “its not our concern”.

According to the Oslo agreement, a Palestinian state was supposed to form in 1999. A year later, in 2000, the Palestinians are still negotiating with Israel about their state. I don’t say its all Israel’s fault and I don’t justify the second Intifadah and terror attacks. I just wish Israelis would come off their self-righteous view which blinds them from seeing and understanding the other side.

I believe this distorted, one sided view, the de-humanization of the other side and inability to understand the problems and concerns of ordinary people on the other side is the greatest obstacle in making progress. This is true for Israelis and Palestinians alike. The leaders of both sides, for their own agenda, only feed and intensify the distortion and blindness.

old-reb

09-02-2003, 05:12 AM

I seem to recall that when the Israelis armed the palestine police they used those same weapons against Israel and I read of many partrols where a Jew and Palestine went on patrol and only the Palestine came back, the Jew has been shot in the back.

I don't think Jews are without sin but the Palestine terrorist are far worse. They wage war on the civilians of Israel because they believe their enemys have no civilians.

old reb

Isiah 2:4

09-02-2003, 07:52 AM

Sorry Sharonbn, wasn't it Nasser who headed the 67 war, not Sadat? :confused:

old-reb

09-02-2003, 08:01 AM

King Hussein and Sadat are men of honor.

Arafat is a liar, and cheat, not a man to keep his word even for 30 seconds.

old reb

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by Isiah 2:4
Sorry Sharonbn, wasn't it Nasser who headed the 67 war, not Sadat? :confused:
It would be nice to know to which sentence you're responding.
I assume you mean "Sadat saw no alternative to regain the territories he lost in 1967". I meant "he" as an Egyptian, not as the president. anyway, if this is all you could say of my post, then you really shouldn't have bothered

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by old-reb
King Hussein and Sadat are men of honor.

Arafat is a liar, and cheat, not a man to keep his word even for 30 seconds.

So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

old-reb

09-02-2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by sharonbn
So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

Egypt and Israel are at peace because Israel gave back the Sinai.

Any peace offering by Hussein that requires Arafat to keep up his part is no peace offering but surrender to death.

If Israel is to survive it must be able to defend itself. They can't depend on the kindness of Arafat to protect their peace.

Arafat is always attacking Israel and any weakness will be taken advantage of to kill more Israelis. The man is a hate filled racist out to exterminate Jews.

old reb

Isiah 2:4

09-02-2003, 08:34 AM

Sharonbn, I was just asking a question man!

Old-reb, it isnt just the sinai. Its also because America pays them 1.5 billion dollars of aid a year. Each. ;)

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 09:19 AM

Why do you personalize everything? Countries behave in accordance with what they think is in their national interest at the time. It has little if anything to do with personalities.

Mercury

09-02-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Communication
Ok, let's talk about our options here:

1. continue on with the road map in the hopes that we can reach an agreement with the PA.

2. transfer

3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

4. unilateral seperation.

5. Other suggestions.

4. Unilateral seperation involves facing the settlers. Perhaps they could be temprorarily jailed, assuming that Israel has the space for them.

Communication, I fully agree with you that the first three options are highly problematic (if not catastrophic). However, about the fourth... Look, I'm the last person who would sympathize with "Gush emunim", but jail them? We are not living in North Korea to jail 4% of our population. Knowing you I'm very surprised by this suggestion.

And yes, rockets can fly over fences and then Israel still has to worry about the Israeli Arabs. However, they will be in a defensive position, once the occupation ends. They will therefore have a greater ability to defend themselves against attacks.

In the modern times defence is no longer the best way of combat. In fact Israel is already largely on the defence.

Israel can take land from the local Palestinians and offer them money in return for moving further out into the West Bank.

Any palestinian who will agree to that would be killed.

IN addtion, Israel can take some additional land to secure itself starting around Netanya on down, including the most strategic hill locations. Yes, Israel will receive an outcry from the world for this, but if it is done at the same time that settlements are abandoned, it will be more justifiable from a position of defense.

As far as countries like France are concerned it doesn't matter much how large are the israeli concessions unless arab countries say they are big enough (=Messiah comes). Did their attitude to Israel change after the withdrawl from Lebanon?

If Hezbollah wanted to, they could probably lob over a few chemical warheads right now. At some point, it just doesn't matter how much land is salvaged.

You are right, the land by itself has a limited security value today. What does matter is the deterrent power. By unilateral withdrawl Israel signs an invitation for further attacks.

I'm sorry if I'm disappointing you by my reply. The reality here is disappointing also. I wish I knew a fifth way how to fix the problem, but I honestly say that I don't. Hope you'll find it eventually.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 10:04 AM

ha HA HA THE <edited by moderator> here has a very poor knowledge of his country's history. In fact he twists it around completely One can very easily forgive the Israelis for not trusting their enemies, for not wanting to relinquish 100% of the newly won lands to the enemy who had so frequently stated that "what was lost by force will be regained by force"And no it wasnt only the Sinai Sadat wanted, even in 1977 when he came to Israel he wanted Israel to give up everything apparently forgetting which side was victorious. And when he came to Jerusalem IT WAS GOLDA MEIR WHO ASKED HIM "WHAT TOOK YOU SO LONG?" In fact right after the war Israeli leaders were saying that they are "waiting for the phone ring ", so peace negotiations may be started. Instead they got the "three no's'

hmm I wonder why would King Hussein ever need the Palestinians after they tried to overthrow him in 1970 and after he killed 30000 of them ?(yeah I admit I dream about the day Israel deals with the Palis insuch a manner) Oh yeah he needed something to destabilize his kingdom..

Israel didnt implement its agreements under Oslo? It gave the Palis 42 percent of the West Bank, 90 percent of Gaza ,armed them so they would have a police force, and instilled a deluded sence of peace and love for the enemy into its citizens. What did the Palis do? Ah they engaged in suicide bombing killing more people in next seven years then were killed in the previous 15.They indoctrinated their population into a death cult. They saturated their culture with Nazi like antisemitism.So both sides are equally to blame?

Oh by the way immediately in 1967 Israel summoned West Bank notables asking them about self rule.Palestinians had no idea about self rule, and those who lived outside the country totally opposed the idea. Then again in 198o Begin had plans for a Palestinian atonomous rule in some parts of the West Bank. They chose terrorism instead.Oh and by the way my deluded friend there was an uprising in GaZA in 1970 put down fairly brutally and quickly(just the way it should be) by the same Ariel Sharon back when he had balls.

By the way the first Intifada didnt force Israel to the negotiating table. It was arm twisting by the Americans in the Madrid Conference.

There was no Palestinian state by 1999 because the "piss process" wasnt working.A people who blow up children in buses dont deserve a state. Palestinians always wanted Palestine from "the river to the sea".And even when Barak tried to force the issue by total appeasement it still didnt work.

Anyway I dont care what our <edited by moderator> tells me in responce. I just needed to respond to the lies he posts here.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 10:50 AM

>
3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

You say this is catastrophic? It has to be catastrophic. It's the only way it works. The PA public front impresses the world with it's willingness to risk EVERYTHING to get what they want. That is, at the heart of it what the 'liberals' admire so much. "They must be right if they are willing to die for it."

What Israel has to do is very simple. It has to risk everything. Even it's survival to get what it wants and needs. It's the only way to gain any traction. It's the only way to make clear to the world how high the stakes are. The world hates Israel, and even her friends are sick of her. Half of Amercian Jewry today couldn't care less. So Israel has to increase the stakes and she has to mean it, seriously mean it.

Please don't mistake this for lefteward mamby pambying. Risking everything is the opposite of surrender and hoping for the best. Risking everything is not simply allowing all the Palestinians in to Israel and never shooting back and giving in to every demand and praying they don't kill everyone.

No risking everything means literally putting your money where your mouth is. It means risking any international, political, economic or military backlash. It means risking even the abandonment of the US. It means risking being truly alone in the world and fighting to the last.

The only thing PLO understands is being the last man standing. The only thing. What Israel must do and it must do it quickly is this:

1 Bang out a policy of absolutism.

Terrorism from ANYONE ANYWHERE FOR ANY REASON will be met with ferocious deadly force every single time. Since bombers kill themselves they will go after all the people who supported that operation and kill or arrest every single one down to the weeping mama holding the death videotape camera.

Israel must stay on message, only this message, this single message and bang it in over and over, a million times if need be. The PA is masterful at one simple message: "It's the Jews fault". Israel needs to repeat the same message over and over again even if no one is listening. "It's terrorism." The MFA should immediately mount a campaign to map every word of Bush's speeches about terrorism to Israel, line by line.

2 No negotiation - EVER.

There is no negotiating with a treasonous seditious violent murdering criminal gangs. Never. Not with Arafat, Abbas or Hamas or anyone else at any time for any reason.

3 All other items off the list until Israel says they are not off list.

No blackmail no extortion no prisoner exchanges no conferences. No incrementalism and no actions of any kind that can't be quantified. Any objection to that is met with a door in the face.

4 Rule of Law

If PLOistanian police can't get the job done immediately then the IDF will and the army is not a sharp knife when dealing with these things. People will get hurt and things will get broken. Either the PA does it or they are crushed. Anyone captured and convicted of assisting terrorism in any way is expelled from both Israel and any potential PA lands for eternity including all of their decendants. Violating this policy results in life imprisonment.

5 No land for peace - EVER.

No other issues on the table at all including the big three land, repatriation and Jerusalem at all until an undefined time in the future if ever. Anyone who can't accept that knows which way the borders are so pack for a long long trip. There is no right of return in fact the PA has no rights on Israel or Israelis at any time on any subject for any reason. Jerusalem will remain as is. The PA can build its capital in Ramallah or anywhere else. There will be no discussion of a two state, one state, merged state or any other variation on this until some time in the undefined future if at all. Any discussions that are held on this subject are nonbinding and subject to change at any time.

6 No expectations of performance.

Whatever any body be it the PA, Hamas etc. does, says, says they will do, is irrelevant and has no bearing on Israeli policy decisions or their execution. At no time will it be necessary to interlock with anything the PA says or does and the expectation is that the PA will no nothing. Whether they do nothing or not is their concern and has no bearing on the national interests of Israel or the policies or actions on those policies that further them. Conversely no performance of any kind will be expected or assumed by Israel to be carried out, begun or attempted by the PA or whatever Palestinian authority or authorities that claim governance at that time.

7 Armed militia

All Israelis living and/or working inside Yesha or near the line will be armed. All settlements will mount a militia that is accountable to itself, but administered and supplied by the IDF. Actions my the militia are considered to be military in nature in a war zone. Perimeters to Jewish conclaves in Yesha will be deemed free fire zones. People's militias armaments will include shoulder fired missiles and anti personnel mines to be deployed by the militias under their control in and around Jewish perimeters.

So you see what Israel has to do is raise the stakes sky high. For too long she has been dying because she is unwilling to risk dangerous chemotherapy. But we all live and we all die and slow strangulating failure is what she has now. If Israel is to survive it must be conclusive and final. If not, then not. But if not then they must bring it all down. Israel is already a pariah nation. The only way to change that is to change the perception from one of being the Red Coats to one of being the Minutemen. Israel and Jews are already hated. Making friends is nonsense and isn't going to happen ho matter how miserable you feel about them, you or anyone else. Israel has to risk its very existence to insure its survival. She has to be ready willing and able to die fighting or she will die in the dust.

sharonbn

09-02-2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Communication
Ok, let's talk about our options here:

1. continue on with the road map in the hopes that we can reach an agreement with the PA.

2. transfer

3. attempt to destory the terrorist infrastructure.

4. unilateral seperation.

5. Other suggestions.

OK, I would go for option #1. Mainly because I believe its the only viable solution.

Option 2 is out of the question. No one in modern history successfully displaced millions of people.
So the Palestinians are here to stay.

Option 3 - we are trying this for the last three years, with little success. PA is the most suited body to do this job. All we need is persuade them to actually do it.

Option 4 is very popular in Israel now. The defense wall is a step in that direction. but this is no long term solution, because:
1) The Palestinians will not see themselves binded to a solution imposed on them by Israel. This means they will feel its their "right" to continue terror attacks until a bi-lateral agreement is reached.
2) the defense wall, in its current plan, makes the lives of a lot of Palestinian civillians impossible. It separates villagers from their lands and it cuts through roads and pathways. The Palestinians will make the wall itself a target for attacks. I see breaching of the wall becoming the next popular news item in coming years.
So, a final permanent solution, imo, will only be reached by an agreement in which both sides will feel they got the best deal.

The roadmap does not state what that agreement will be, it only attempts to show a way for a cease fire and setup the right atmosphere so such an agreement may be reached. It will probably take longer than 2005 to see the end of the conflict, but the roadmap does indeed state what is required from both sides to get there.

I believe Abbas indeed wants to lead his people in the right direction. He needs first to shake Arafat off his back, and then he can demonstrate how he deals with the terror groups and other requirements set forth by the roadmap.

In another thread, I posted a news item (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3604) about the Pal gov't starting to make reforms in their education system. They also made some actions against the terror groups (sealed tunnels between GS and Egypt), so not all is black.

Communication, regarding Palestinian support of terror groups:
As I said before, public opinion is a changing thing, as is evidence from the last four elections in Israel. It is true that Palestinian society is less diverse and less dynamic in its political facet, but believe it or not, its not just Hamas, IJ, et al. Loud extremists exist on both sides, so does a silent majority. The majority of people on both sides want an end to the violent cycle of terror attacks and missile attacks and revenge and retaliation etc. They will support Abbas only if they see he has influence in Israel. This means that if Israel starts implementing the roadmap, public opinion will shift in Abbas' favor.

As I said elsewhere, it is expected that the terror groups will do their utmost to break the cease fire. For that, Israel gov't needs vision, persistence and courage to work with Abbas, until the terror groups will lose the support thay have.

I don't see any other way to solve this issue once and for all.

Communication

09-02-2003, 12:58 PM

wow! a lot of ground has been covered here. I will post something more later. I am wondering if anybody knows aproximately what the percentage is of people who actually respond when they are called up for reserve duty. From what I understand, the numbers were very high during Operation Defensive Shield.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by sharonbn
So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

Well sharonbn .. why don't you tell us what it says about Israel...
Or what you mean to say about Israel.

First you recite a one-sided histiry of the Peace agreements that looks like something from electronicintifada,
Then want to imply Isreal is Dishonorable or doesn't want Peace.

Then you use your censorious moderator Button, Again, on alexbmn.

1. What the Hell are you doing here?
2. Why in God's name would anyone let a petty Chomskyite Anti-Israeler be a moderator here,
especially in light of the Abuse of that position already?

abu afak

09-02-2003, 01:35 PM

Mil

09-02-2003, 01:37 PM

Posted by Abu Afak:

First you recite a one-sided histiry of the Peace agreements that looks like something from electronicintifada,

You would be suprised but most of the political processes that deal with both Arab/Israeli and Pal/Israeli issues are all mostly pretty much pro-Israeli. Even the daunted 242 was designed in Israel's favor.

Then want to imply Isreal is Dishonorable or doesn't want Peace.

Israel is a country in the ME and acts accordingly.

1. What the Hell are you doing here?

Given that Sharonb is an Israeli and not some over-the-sea Zionist I would personally take the credability of his opinion over yours anytime.

2. Why in God's name would anyone let a petty Chomskyite Anti-Israeler be a moderator here,
especially in light of the Abuse of that position already?

This is a forum with rules. Deal with it.

Now - no fights please :) I don't want to be ignored

abu afak

09-02-2003, 01:43 PM

Mil.. aren't you the guy I straightened out who had 242 all wrong, after saying he knew it all?
(and who argued futily for more than a page)

Then didn't you deny/Lie that you had even "addressed" it?

Isn't that trashing you took from me the reason you're sticking your nose in now?

;^Þ

(If you can't remember... here:
http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3355&perpage=15&pagenumber=2 )

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
1. Withdraw to the 1967 Borders as the Arabs want.

2. Have an Adusted 1967 line as Resolution 242 foresaw, inluding
mountain ridges of Judea and Samaria.¹

3. Transfer.

No simply take all three off the table. It's ludicrous to discuss anything while you worry about what the Palestinians, might, might not, say they will, say they will not no.

Any unilateral action that acceeds this is insane. If you're going to act unilaterally then act to your own advantage. The world isn't going to give Israel a big fat kiss because it does anything. The world will just have another set of demands and requirements for Israel and none for the PA. What does it take for you people to understand that?

Holy moly look at Honest Reporting. Half the newspapers in America don't even call the last bus bombing terrorism and they barely restrain their outright glee.

It's not about land - don't you get that. It's about destroy Israel and no more. That's it. Destroy Israel. Boil it all down to that. It's not about borders 500 meters on this side of this line or the other. It's not about how many PA flags get to fly over how many blocks in Jerusalem. It's not even about how many underclass Palestinians are going to be frogged marched into Israel (because let's admit it that's what it would take - there would be riots and those Pals would be killed and chased off.). It isn't about any of that. To the Pals it's about what it will take and how many of them have to die to destroy Israel. Period.

Don't you understand that 242 is just the opening gambit? It's just the first non-reversible demand. The next one is after that and the other and the other and the other.

Do you delude yourselves into pretending that even if Israel retreated to 1948 borders and the attacks held up that anyone would care? Let alone NOT condemn them for self defence?

That's what it is, delusional. And if you thought about for longer than it takes to blow the foam off your lattes you'd understand that.

Mil

09-02-2003, 02:01 PM

Posted by Abu Afak:

Mil.. aren't you the guy I straightened out who had 242 all wrong, after saying he knew it all?
(and who argued futily for more than a page)

Apparently you considered that "straightning out."

Then didn't you deny/Lie that you had even "addressed" it?

Actually I did not deny or lied or anything. If you read those posts I didn't say much.

Isn't that trashing you took from me the reason you're sticking your nose in now?

No. I just don't like the way you address certain posters who do have a non-extremist opinion.

ÆÎÏÀ
;^Þ

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No simply take all three off the table. It's ludicrous to discuss anything while you worry about what the Palestinians, might, might not, say they will, say they will not no...........

Medio ???

None of the above 3 are above or below Negotiation.

We are discussing possible solutions.

What are yours, assuming you don't want to wipe out the Arab World?

Mil

09-02-2003, 02:05 PM

What are yours, assuming you don't want to wipe out the Arab World?

So it appears that yours is to wipe out 1 billion people.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Mil
What are yours, assuming you don't want to wipe out the Arab World?

So it appears that yours is to wipe out 1 billion people.

Mil .. that's an idiotic conclusion (as usual)..

and kindly stop harassing Me/the-Thread, while I and others are trying to have a serious discussion.

Thank you

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by sharonbn
So if Israel rejected peace offerings from the two "men of honor" what does it say about Israel?

Sharon, it says as you say that Israel has made a lot of boneheaded decisions in the past & will in the future.The quality of the governments Israel has had and has now certainly don't fill me with great confidence.
But I think you are being a bit unfair here. You're not seriously suggesting the old "both sides are at fault" argument, are you?
Surely to some extent, but equally?
I do agree that had the first intifada not happened, Israel would likely have accepted the staus quo & done nothing to help the palestinians. But it did happen and Israel is committed to peace with them now, no?
And Golda meir imo had it right.Israel should have been very wary of any arab leader at that time.And the fact that eventually she ( Israel) did put her trust in Sadat was a great leap of faith and a major risk too, with the sinai gone, wasn't it? So Why the criticism?
Don't know about you, but I'm not an oracle.

( Just reminded myself that I bought that crummy stock & lost a fortune :( )

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 02:20 PM

I just told you. Twice.

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly. Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons. And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

Assassinate Arafats's wife and 'child' in Paris, go after his mother in law too. End all payment transfers to the PA and block all Pal movement back into Israel at every check point. Not delay it - end it. If Abbas can't get anything done then indict him as a collaborator and put a price on his head. Declare open season on every idenitified Hamas operative wherever they are and whomever is standing next to them at the time. End all prisoner transfers forever and end all family visits forever or until their release. Tell the Haredi that they have to get with the program or they lose subsidies. Remove any Arab Knesset member with ties to the PA or to any other terrorist organization . Stop calling rock and bomb throwing 16 year olds childen and arrest all rioters down to the age of 13. Target Hamas funerals for missile strikes and announce it ahead of time.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I just told you. Twice.

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly. Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons. And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

Assassinate Arafats's wife and 'child' in Paris, go after his mother in law too. End all payment transfers to the PA and block all Pal movement back into Israel at every check point. Not delay it - end it. If Abbas can't get anything done then indict him as a collaborator and put a price on his head. Declare open season on every idenitified Hamas operative wherever they are and whomever is standing next to them at the time. End all prisoner transfers forever and end all family visits forever or until their release. Tell the Haredi that they have to get with the program or they lose subsidies. Remove any Arab Knesset member with ties to the PA or to any other terrorist organization . Stop calling rock and bomb throwing 16 year olds childen and arrest all rioters down to the age of 13. Target Hamas funerals for missile strikes and announce it ahead of time.

Assassinate his wife??
Kidding, right?
Anyway,lets say the rest will work..2 questions.Would the israelis themselves agree with your proposals. and
what if the US cut off all support including funding and hence Israel would have not a single friend left in the world? You think Israel could carry on as if nothing happened?

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
I just told you. Twice.

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly. Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons. And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

So your solution is no Palestinian state- Transfer-- or "Proceed to and take Baghahd" or as far as possible and Kill as many Terrorists and the countries that house them as possible.
.. or er.. everyone near them and their relatives.
(We certainly have both sides of the spectrum moderating here)

I didn't think there were that many people here to my 'right' ;^)

I already said that no matter which solution is taken, fighting terror has to be done anyway.
I've even said Sharon hasn't gone far enough or reacted quick enough to the Intifada.

I've also kept my "Transfer- Get Used to it" string going here for 9 months and have argued that as well.

So you haven't Told me any solution -- just a method on the way to a solution...

whenever you're ready.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
1. What the Hell are you doing here?
2. Why in God's name would anyone let a petty Chomskyite Anti-Israeler be a moderator here,
especially in light of the Abuse of that position already?

He is neither a chomskyite nor an anti-israeli.
He wants an end to the violence just as much as anyone else here.
He is entitled to his opinions.
And if he is following the rules he has every right to be a mod here.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
He is neither a chomskyite nor an anti-israeli.
He wants an end to the violence just as much as anyone else here.
He is entitled to his opinions.
And if he is following the rules he has every right to be a mod here.

I disagree.

She has put up many Anti-Israel posts here.
She has used the Moderator button in a personal and indiscriminate way and caused MichaelC to leave the board.
(Recent Strings to that effect with many posts have been removed/Censored)
After 120 Posts here you presume to know something you just don't.

MGB8

09-02-2003, 02:54 PM

One point - we don't know that Hezbollah has any usable chemical weapons. More importantly, they KNOW that Israel would RE-INVADE lebanon if that happened....and they can't yet hit Haifa....

However...the Pal Arabs ARE NOT the Lebanese (well, actually they are...but they claim not to be)....They have shown a willingness to push the limits MUCH MORE than Hezbollah has....

Communication...you still never answered my question - what happens the day after - if the PLO does exactly what it did in Oslo, take the gains and then continue attacking, while claiming that "its not them...its the terror organizations" - or even if that was fact, and it was simply an unwillingness to stop the organizations, ala Pakistan?

Answer the question, communication.

BTW _ WE NEVER went all out to destroy the terrorist organizations. NEVER. We were stopped by Oslo and by "international opinion." But slowly, slowly, the gloves are comming off.

We have NOT tried to eliminate the terrorist infrastructure. Anyone who says we has IS LYING. BLATANTLY.

We need to do it - now.

Defensive shield - it was A START.....but still limited...we did not go after the HIGH LEVEL people....we distinguished between "political" and "military"...and when we did go after them, btw....TERRORISM WAS SOON REDUCED! First there would be a slight uptick (as with Iraq after the deaths of the Saddam boys...) and then a calming (which has yet to happen in Iraq....but shows signs of happenning..plus, the US hasn't been as effective as Israel was ... too big a territory...)

I've already presented my plan, too...

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR ON TERROR...take back ALL of the WB and Gaza and arrest or kill (preferably the former) all leaders/members of Hamas, Jihad, and Fatah...

(2) Set up a Pal Arab state...sovereign in the Gaza..hopefully purchase a part of the Sinai to add to this...create a "Palestine Proper"

(3) Autonomy in the WB, with Israeli military control but Arab elections and local control/taxes...and voting in Palestine proper elections too...

The future of the WB part of this Palestine is put on hold for 20 years...limited immigration/incentives for Arabs to leave, no expulsion, however (unless minor terrorists or terrorist support)...but, given Arab Birth rates...some of the land will eventually need to become Arab sovereign.

Communication

09-02-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by MGB8

Communication...you still never answered my question - what happens the day after - if the PLO does exactly what it did in Oslo, take the gains and then continue attacking, while claiming that "its not them...its the terror organizations" - or even if that was fact, and it was simply an unwillingness to stop the organizations, ala Pakistan?

Answer the question, communication.

BTW _ WE NEVER went all out to destroy the terrorist organizations. NEVER. We were stopped by Oslo and by "international opinion." But slowly, slowly, the gloves are comming off.

We have NOT tried to eliminate the terrorist infrastructure. Anyone who says we has IS LYING. BLATANTLY.

We need to do it - now.

Defensive shield - it was A START.....but still limited...we did not go after the HIGH LEVEL people....we distinguished between "political" and "military"...and when we did go after them, btw....TERRORISM WAS SOON REDUCED! First there would be a slight uptick (as with Iraq after the deaths of the Saddam boys...) and then a calming (which has yet to happen in Iraq....but shows signs of happenning..plus, the US hasn't been as effective as Israel was ... too big a territory...)

I've already presented my plan, too...

(1) FIGHT AND WIN THE WAR ON TERROR...take back ALL of the WB and Gaza and arrest or kill (preferably the former) all leaders/members of Hamas, Jihad, and Fatah...

(2) Set up a Pal Arab state...sovereign in the Gaza..hopefully purchase a part of the Sinai to add to this...create a "Palestine Proper"

(3) Autonomy in the WB, with Israeli military control but Arab elections and local control/taxes...and voting in Palestine proper elections too...

The future of the WB part of this Palestine is put on hold for 20 years...limited immigration/incentives for Arabs to leave, no expulsion, however (unless minor terrorists or terrorist support)...but, given Arab Birth rates...some of the land will eventually need to become Arab sovereign.

I'll try and answer your questions in my next post. I'm not sure I can answer them to your satisfaction and if not, then go ahead and ask me again.

Communication

09-02-2003, 04:06 PM

Based on what I've read so far and my own thoughts on the matter, this is where I am presently at in this thread:

1. Medio, I was asking about how many reservists respond to the call for duty for the reason that what I am trying to ascertain is where the Israeli mindset is. Regardless of those numbers, I think common sense tells me that when it comes to ideology, the Palestinians have the Israelis beat. Despite the fact that Palestinians stand a chance to gain an independent state in at least a portion of their historic homeland, they are raised to believe that they have nothing left to lose. Add to that, the fact that religion has become increasingly infused into their political struggle, and you have the one-two punch. If they acquired better weapons, we wouldn't have the luxury of having this conversation. Israelis, on the other hand, are at a different stage in their national development. They have built their nation, they are tired of war, and they are at the point where they want to mold what is already in place.

I also read today that Morocco is seriously interested in normalizing relations with Israel again. Countries like Morocco, Jordan and Egypt have a better chance of instituting reforms in their countries and creating the type of economic interdependence with countries like Israel that would lead to genuine peace in the future. Unlike countries like Saudi Arabia, Ian and Iraq, they have to reform their societies because their future success is dependent on human capital rather than oil.

2. In terms of unilateral separation, I'm now leaning against that, mainly because as some have pointed out, it would only be perceived as a victory by the terror groups, as was the case with Lebanon.

The article that Sharonbn pointed to about how the PA is beginning the process of reforming their educational system is also interesting. As far as the PA is concerned, they should have been doing this all along. They never even took the inflammatory caricatures off their website, something that could have been easily done with no excuses. But they didn't. It wasn't until the IDF responded to the latest successful suicide mission that the PA actually started to follow through with some of their commitments under the road map. That means that the road map alone and the US commitment to an independent Palestinian state with provisional border by 2004 will not by itself be enough to get them to act if they think that they have any opportunity to create an excuse. But it also shows that when pressed, they will act. So how do we get them to act?

A. I don’t know whether the territories that Israel handed over to the PA are still under PA control, but if they are, perhaps Israel can demand that the PA dismantle the terror infrastructure in those territories. At the same time, Israel will continue to dismantle the terror infrastructure in those areas where it retains control. If the PA succeeds in an area, then Israel will hand them another, at the same time dismantling any settlements that impede contiguous areas that come under PA control where terror has been rooted out.

B. I have no idea how to deal with the fact that there still appears to be a divide between the expectations of both sides in terms of a final settlement, especially in terms of the Palestinian expectation of a right of return. Should that be left until the end? On one hand, I would hate to see us get close to the end only to see negotiations fall apart for the same reasons why they fell apart last time. On the other hand, perhaps if the process is managed better than before, the Palestinians will have a more viable state at that point, and thus more incentive to accept compensation and a right of return to a Palestinian state. I’m not sure.

C. We really need to work on a more effective hasbara strategy. Israel’s greatest strength, the fact that they have an independent media and thus the means for self-criticism, is also their greatest weakness when it comes to influencing world public opinion. More often than not, when someone engages me in a debate over Israel, they use articles from Israeli news sources and human rights groups to prove their case. Nothing like this exists on the Palestinian side. People do not understand the inner-workings of the PA and so they have very little information to go on in terms of accessing PA accountability to both Israel and the Palestinian people. By default, the criticism falls more heavily on the side that we do know about.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
Assassinate his wife??
Kidding, right?

No.

Anyway,lets say the rest will work..2 questions.Would the israelis themselves agree with your proposals.

Maybe they won't have a choice.

and
what if the US cut off all support including funding and hence Israel would have not a single friend left in the world?

So?

You think Israel could carry on as if nothing happened?

They will die in my lifetime at this rate.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
So your solution is no Palestinian state- Transfer-- or "Proceed to and take Baghahd" or as far as possible and Kill as many Terrorists and the countries that house them as possible.
.. or er.. everyone near them and their relatives.
(We certainly have both sides of the spectrum moderating here)

I said take all those other things off the table and crush terrorism utterly. And then begin anew and put whatever issues you want back on the table at that point. Its about control. I couldn't care less about Baghdad. I care about Yesha. When and if terrorism abates then Israel can drag their bloody cracked skulls to the bargaining table.

I didn't think there were that many people here to my 'right' ;^)

I'm the pacifist in my family. My wife makes me look like Martin Luther Gandhi.

I already said that no matter which solution is taken, fighting terror has to be done anyway.
I've even said Sharon hasn't gone far enough or reacted quick enough to the Intifada.

Yeah but all this half measure garbage is waste of time and lives. Sharon needs to be Judah Maccabee and he needs to smash them until they give up, die or leave. Then that's over we can talk about rule of law.

America will abandon Israel soon anyway. America is sick of Israel and American Jews are too. Look around kids, you can only get maybe 50% support in your own communities for Israel. Even Israel is sick of Israel.

So you haven't Told me any solution -- just a method on the way to a solution...

That's right. They tried unilateral negotiations for 50 years. So enough of that. If crushing terrorism takes 3 years then it takes three years. Then as I said they can revisit a solution. You don't need to hold out a carrot. It's like what we talk about Rule of Law. That's fine. Here is the law: we will crush anyone who wages war. That's the Law, no go deal with that and bang your heads against the Wall until one of them breaks.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Communication
C. We really need to work on a more effective hasbara strategy. Israel’s greatest strength, the fact that they have an independent media and thus the means for self-criticism, is also their greatest weakness when it comes to influencing world public opinion. More often than not, when someone engages me in a debate over Israel, they use articles from Israeli news sources and human rights groups to prove their case. Nothing like this exists on the Palestinian side. People do not understand the inner-workings of the PA and so they have very little information to go on in terms of accessing PA accountability to both Israel and the Palestinian people. By default, the criticism falls more heavily on the side that we do know about.

No, that's reactive and responsive. You need to attack attack attack attack attack and then escalate. Israel needs to flatten the world with one message.

It's terrorism. Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism. Over and over and over and over a million million times. They need to bang this message and they need to point to it in response to every and any criticism, point, diatribe, PA spokesmodel, over and over and over. Don't even asknowledge the critic or anything he or she is saying, Don't even engage in any debate with what they say. Debate is for debate club. Hasbara failed because it wants to 'dialog' with haters. Waste of time. We need a screeching mob. We need to congregate outside ISM meetings and shout them down over and over and over and what's the response to their complaint?

It's terrorism.

We need bullhorns, we need to block entrance to Palestinian meetings just like the technique right to lifers use. We need to have a loud uncivilly disobedient yelling mob outside whatever 'official' PA missions there are in the west 24 hours a day and we need to be carted off to jail. We need to start boycotting universities and we need to start arm twisting our boosters to stop funding them. We need to sue each of the states that supports any state university that condones terrorism. We need to sue private universities under Federal hate crimes laws. We need to report each ISM and similar meeting to Congress and to the Department of Homeland Security as a national terrorism risk. We need the names of every foreign national in those organizations and we need to get them deported or imprisoned or officially disappeared.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by abu afak
I disagree.
After 120 Posts here you presume to know something you just don't.

Not just here. I've been reading Sharon's posts at ummah.com for some time.
They more or less call him a zionist murderer & a muslim hater over there.
So between that and being called a chomskyite here, I would suggest he probably deserves to be called a moderate, or at least a centrist.
and BTW HE is male not female...I made that same mistake because of his name a while ago.

As to the incident with Michael c..I didn't follow all of that.I said that IF he followed the rules he has the right to be a mod here. If he abused the rules, then obviously he shouldn't.

Communication

09-02-2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
No, that's reactive and responsive. You need to attack attack attack attack attack and then escalate. Israel needs to flatten the world with one message.

It's terrorism. Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism Terrorism. Over and over and over and over a million million times. They need to bang this message and they need to point to it in response to every and any criticism, point, diatribe, PA spokesmodel, over and over and over. Don't even asknowledge the critic or anything he or she is saying, Don't even engage in any debate with what they say. Debate is for debate club. Hasbara failed because it wants to 'dialog' with haters. Waste of time. We need a screeching mob. We need to congregate outside ISM meetings and shout them down over and over and over and what's the response to their complaint?

It's terrorism.

We need bullhorns, we need to block entrance to Palestinian meetings just like the technique right to lifers use. We need to have a loud uncivilly disobedient yelling mob outside whatever 'official' PA missions there are in the west 24 hours a day and we need to be carted off to jail. We need to start boycotting universities and we need to start arm twisting our boosters to stop funding them. We need to sue each of the states that supports any state university that condones terrorism. We need to sue private universities under Federal hate crimes laws. We need to report each ISM and similar meeting to Congress and to the Department of Homeland Security as a national terrorism risk. We need the names of every foreign national in those organizations and we need to get them deported or imprisoned or officially disappeared.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/336100.html

Perhaps protests should be organized in New York, SF and the European countries to suuport this, or at least write your UN reps supporting Israel's position?

I believe this is the right e-mail address to contact JOHN NEGROPONTE: usa@un.int; fax: 212-415-4053

and for more background on how the UN:

"The Kirkpatrick Commission" by Allan Gerson

"A Mandate for Terror: The PLO at the UN" by Harris Schoenberg

____________________

I realize this is a side point, but I saw the article and decided to post it here. I don't mean to detract from the thread.

frizzer1

09-02-2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Communication
Perhaps protests should be organized in New York, SF and the European countries to suuport this?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/336100.html

Years ago my cousin chained herself to the railing on the steps of the Soviet Embassy to protest the treatment of Soviet jews.She was arrested & carted off to jail.
But it got publicity..and it did work..the soviets usually let a few jews out after each event.
Seems to me tho, that the american/canadian jewish community is much too apathetic to show up to one of those demonstrations in significant numbers.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 06:32 PM

The venue really doesn't matter. We don't care what resolutions get passed. The UN IS RACIST MURDERING GARBAGE. The message to them is the same.

It's terrorism. Terrorism Terrorism.

Get loud and get ugly at the UN, at the PA 'mission' wherever that is, in Washington DC, at the EU Parliament in Brussels. If a Pro Palestinian mob shows up to bullyboy it, beat them down. If the ISM lurches out to counter protest shout them down, if they want to mix it up, club them. And after that, break into their offices and trash them. It worked for Father Berrigan it can work for us.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 06:35 PM

So medio..

I'm still waiting .

Crush terror. .. Yeah ... and

What's the solution?
What platform/territory shall Israel operate from?

3 Years from now/... 5? 10?

We agree on crushing terror.. but you're angrily (if also righteously and with justification) having a fit and refuse discuss solutions.

Communication

09-02-2003, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
Years ago my cousin chained herself to the railing on the steps of the Soviet Embassy to protest the treatment of Soviet jews.She was arrested & carted off to jail.
But it got publicity..and it did work..the soviets usually let a few jews out after each event.
Seems to me tho, that the american/canadian jewish community is much too apathetic to show up to one of those demonstrations in significant numbers.

what are you talking aboot? :D

Over 100,000 Jews marched in support of Israel last year in Washington DC. And if I didn't succeed in killing off all support from the Christian Right in the Gibson thread, we have all the support we need. It can be done. These are things that we can do. What I really want to acheive in this thread is some way to alleviate the constant battle and confusion that I go through every day over where I stand with all this. Ultimately, I stand by Israel and so whatever course of action they take, I am for them. I also realize that I'm just a very small person in the scheme of things, but I want to hash this out with everyone here so that I then can be clear in my purpose when I do whatever I do to promote Israel in my daily life.

Communication

09-02-2003, 06:40 PM

Hey Medio....

I happen to know someone who knows where Arafat's wife lives in Paris....you can PM me and I will see to it that the fat man walks alone.... ;)

abu afak

09-02-2003, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by frizzer1
Not just here. I've been reading Sharon's posts at ummah.com for some time.
They more or less call him a zionist murderer & a muslim hater over there.......
If you tell the truth and are truly a Zionist they'll throw you off Ummah.
I should know.. I was chucked .. Twice
So I'm not impressed with anyone who can kiss enough @ss to stay there.

....As to the incident with Michael c..I didn't follow all of that.I said that IF he followed the rules he has the right to be a mod here. If he abused the rules, then obviously he shouldn't. [/B]
Yes.. well I did follow the incident with MichaelC, a True friend of Israel (and mine), who had his posts systematically and abusivey 'edited' by sharonbn in a personal dispute that should have been defended like all the rest of us have to defend.. fairly

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 06:56 PM

Are you a lawyer? Do you work with the law? Here are the basic assumptions you need to believe in if you do:

There is a rule of law that is meaningful to everyone involved.

Consequences are imposed, whether they are embraced or not.

Without both parties involved you're making pronouncements not law.

You don't introduce bargaining issues unless and until all of the above issues are clearly understood.

My point is this - none of those other issues are meaningful unless and until the PA or whomever can be dragged back to the table because they have other options and no strength to resist. We could just as easily be talking about teaching them to fly.

So plan is this - break them down to the point where developing ANY solution is possible. Before that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Keep the real plan in your back pocket, whatever it is; withdrawl, wall building, haggling with the French. Who really cares. That's part two. But none of that can happen until the PA knows that the repercussions for terrorism will be astonishingly terrible. They will not budge until Israel brings the fight back to them. We know the Roadmap was DOA, I said this months ago. There is no Roadmap, never was. So the real plan is this.

Step 2
Disrupt the PA infrastructure both military and civil. Offer a partial pull back in phases contingent on no terrorism. Right of return is gone. Forever. Golan is off the table forever. Saba is off the table forever.

Step 3
Move outposts back to lines closer to the Green Line in areas contiguous with the major Jewish settlements. Abandon Gaza.

Step 4
PA 'connection' between Gaza and Yesha is contingent on Jewish 'connection' between Jewish areas such as Kiryat Arba. One for one.

Step 5
Any terrorism freezes the progress for an indefinite time.

Step 6
The Wall stays unless Israel says it doesn't.

Step 7
The PA capital can be anywhere but Jerusalem, Ramallah perhaps.

Step 8
Regional issues stay regional, water for example.

Step 9
The PA is free to declare independence at some predetermined date in the future after the previous 8 conditions are met.

Step 10
Palestinians are barred from entry into Israel in perpetuity, and likewise.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 07:02 PM

That's why I often start with 'Transfer' as a proposal and why I've kept the string intentionally on the First page of the "Israel-Arab Conlict" page for 10 months. (check)

No, I'm Not a Lawyer ... just a good negotiator..
Often called 'far right' myself-- and certainly have moved so in the last few years.

Transfer is the Smart position to take from a Negotiation standpoint.
You can't start with the 1967 borders.

So what do you want? Dream wise.. . The Jordan River?

Yes, yes,.. I know... be tough... I agree.

Kindness is weakness with these Pigs... but you must have a goal.

Mediocrates

09-02-2003, 07:07 PM

My Dream? Israel, the Israel we all understand.

The Jordan. Of course. We would never have any battles at all if we had started from that position. We would never have an attempt to rationalize resettlement of Jews if there were 2 million souls in Yesha instead of 280,000.

abu afak

09-02-2003, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
My Dream? Israel, the Israel we all understand.

The Jordan. Of course. We would never have any battles at all if we had started from that position. We would never have an attempt to rationalize resettlement of Jews if there were 2 million souls in Yesha instead of 280,000.

Finally!

thx... and a natural, as well as Biblical border it would be too.
It would have been easy as a continuation/final push of the '67 war.
Now it's a difficult proposition politically, though American Evangelical Christians and Politicans (Lott, DeLay, etc) are increasingly for it.

We recently talked about a 'Transfer with compensation' scenario here someplace.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 07:51 PM

what, SharonB, cant stomach being called a Palestinian spokesman? But thats what he is.He recycles old Palestinian lies that at best two sides are morally equavalent at worst israel is always to blame.

alexbmn

09-02-2003, 07:55 PM

"nobody has ever transferred millions of people to another territory?" LOL LOL LMAO. How about millions of Sudeten Germans after WWII? How about India and Pakistan? How about Turkish and Greek Cypriots?

Mil

09-02-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates

Break the back of terrorism and every other so called issue is off the table. Take borders and return and Jerusalem off the table and respond with ultimate force, randomly.

Okay. You do that. There are Palestinians living in US go kick some Arab butte.

Raise the balance of terror up to the sky. Put their very existance on the table and dare the posing effing wankers to blink.

Lets gas them.

Restraint? Great idea, don't use the nukes yet. That's restrained. Every time there is a terrorist attack unleash the full force of the army for 3 days and arm the settlers with guerrilla weapons.

Kill little children too. That would score Israel some PR points.

And when the world comes and whines about retaliation, just say you can't find them yet but you're planning on looking into that soon. Move all the families of terrorists to borders with orther arab states for an instant human shield buffer zone.

Yep. You got it. The only way Israel can remain on top, Med, is by remaining CIVILIZED. As soon as Israel crosses the line it would be measured with the such of Hussein or Assad or Qaddafi and the rest of the dictator gang. Are you willing to do it?

Assassinate Arafats's wife and 'child' in Paris, go after his mother in law too.

That's good.

End all payment transfers to the PA

Now it's something. Political pressure is better then killing.

and block all Pal movement back into Israel at every check point. Not delay it - end it. If Abbas can't get anything done then indict him as a collaborator and put a price on his head.

Lets say a million dollars.

Declare open season on every idenitified Hamas operative wherever they are and whomever is standing next to them at the time.

I thought you wanted full terror against the Pals?

End all prisoner transfers forever and end all family visits forever or until their release. Tell the Haredi that they have to get with the program or they lose subsidies. Remove any Arab Knesset member with ties to the PA or to any other terrorist organization . Stop calling rock and bomb throwing 16 year olds childen and arrest all rioters down to the age of 13.

In Stalin's USSR a child was criminaly responsible at the age of 12 and could have been executed under the full legal premise of the law. Lets make Israel the second USSR.

As sad as it is the only thing Israel can do is to negotiate.... there were tougher times, however, a political solution is far more noble then any murder - especially genocide - given that there is a chance. And there is a chance and as long as there is an opportunity for diplocy Israel will jump in. That's the only reason Israel has survived and prospered through the last 55 years. Israel's strength lies in the only factor - it's a civilized nation!!!!

Mil

09-02-2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by alexbmn

"nobody has ever transferred millions of people to another territory?"

Nobody has physically done it - sharonb is right. The closest was Stalin's transfer of Chechnya in 1944-45 where over 750,000 people were put on trucks and trains and physically moved.

LOL LOL LMAO. How about millions of Sudeten Germans after WWII?

They were refugees who were encouraged to leave but not physically tranferred.

How about India and Pakistan? How about Turkish and Greek Cypriots?

Sure - why would not Israel do the same in the year 2003?

Communication

09-02-2003, 09:14 PM

So let me get this straight. All my suggestions are off the table now and instead you want to go straight for the jugular with the end goal being all of Yesha, knowing that with such a plan, Israel will never be able to normalize relations with her neighbors? Do you love the land so much that you are you willing to commit THEM to fighting the Arabs forever, their best and their brightest occupied with fighting for their survival rather than curing cancer and launching their astronauts into space?

Why are you trying to turn us into the Palestinians, Mediocrates? Is this how you want to fight? Are you a Jew or are you an Arab? You seem to prefer Arab rhetoric. Ask me any question about Jewish history, Zionism, the Torah, Talmud, Tosefta, and if I don’t know the answer off the top of my head, you can be certain that I know where to look. I’m saying this not because I feel the need to establish my credibility with you, but as evidence of my commitment to the Jewish people. I have all the ideology I need because I know what’s at stake. I know that America is growing tired of Israel, as are the so called Jews in the United States, and even Israelis. I see, as Alfred stated so eloquently, that “Israel is turning into a paper tiger that can die of a thousand cuts.” But in the big scheme of things, it really is just a little struggle. Turn around and you will see that the Jewish people played a prominent role in many of the major struggles involving western civilization, most of them far worse for Jews than the present situation. It’s not a punishment. It’s what we signed up for. We are a small people destined to advance human affairs. That’s why they call us “Israel.” Of course, most Jews don’t know this and when they figure it out, they want out. So let them go! Do you understand what I’m telling you? The goal is not Yesha. And we don’t need to act like Arabs to try and beat them at their own game. Let them be consumed by hatred but not us. If you sincerely believed what I am saying then you would also believe that we will win this one too.