Have we reached the turning point?

[ibrodsky]

Today may have been a turning point. The Arab Summit has been a complete failure: only half of the Arab leaders showed up, and both the Palestinians and some Saudis have reportedly left. These people never really say anything new, and even they are coming to realize it. (The Saudi peace proposal is basically what the Palestinians demanded; the only thing "new" is that they offer "normal relations" if Israel cooperates by committing suicide.)

And today, one of Arafat's terrorists has killed at least 15 Israelis -- with many in critical condition. The final death toll could exceed 20.

Should Israel end its policy of restraint? Should Israel prosecute this war to the fullest?

I think the time has come.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Today may have been a turning point. The Arab Summit has been a complete failure: only half of the Arab leaders showed up, and both the Palestinians and some Saudis have reportedly left.

And today, one of Arafat's terrorists has killed at least 15 Israelis -- with many in critical condition. The final death toll could exceed 20.

Should Israel end its policy of restraint? Should Israel prosecute this war to the fullest?
I am starting to think the very same thing.

Unless Israel goes about the business of saving its own people through any means necessary, the world would be pleased to keep quiet while thousands, perhaps evetually millions of Israelis are slaughtered in the streets of the Jewish homeland.

Already Israelis are hostages to the fear of Islamic terrorism in their own land, like much of the rest of the world. Life is no longer anything even close to normal and every day the dead are piling up and the wounded are overwhelming hospitals in all major Israeli cities.

Yet, time and time again, no matter what the Arab attrocity against the Jews might be, and no matter how many dead Israelis line the streets, the "civilized" world makes sure that Israel is forcibly prevented from defending its own citizens and putting an end to Islamic terrorism.

I hope that the Israeli government will finally understand that the rest of the world's opinions on Israeli restraint are simply not nearly as important as survival.

It's not a question of whether to start a full-scale war against the Palestinians, but how to respond to the full-scale war that the Palestinians have started already.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

It's not a question of whether to start a full-scale war against the Palestinians, but how to respond to the full-scale war that the Palestinians have started already.

Yes, and the Palestinian people have demonstrated through polls showing up to 85% support suicide bombings, that they are collectively guilty .

While Israel must try to minimize civilians casualties, never has a country been more justified in not letting that inhibit massive use of lethal force.

It would be a terrible mistake for Israel to respond to today's attack in a restrained manner. The response must be so swift and powerful that the message to the Palestinians will be "Think carefully before striking again; your next terrorist attack may be the end of any hopes for a Palestinian state."

[L@mplighterM]

Conduct a poll in all Islamic nations and I believe it would average in the 80 percentile.
There’s no way that the average Arab will ever like a Jew. Sure they like to use them for target practice and that’s about it.
I’ve been saying that Sharon is a pussycat for years now and Peres has no ____.
How are they going to retaliate? Blow up a few dumpy buildings worth a few hunded thousand dollars. What does that work out to 5,000, 10,000, 20,000 dollars per Jew?

That kind of retaliation is just a waste of time and money.

[alexbmn]

Do you honestly think that a death of mere 15 Jews would mean that that the country has reached turning point? How are they different from the hundredh that were murdered in the previous 18 months. No my friends the oucome is quite a bit more pessimistic then you realize. Just look at some of the quotes made by memebrs of the Israeli government today.

Raanan Gissin, a Sharon adviser, said the attack "will require us to reevaluate our overall policy."

"We are still working to achieve a cease-fire to which we are fully committed, but if the Palestinians have decided to choose the road of terrorism ... then we have to decide what measures we will take," Gissin said.

Do these sound like the words of government who is ready to wage a decisive war against murderous enemy and to protect its people? If there is any place on earth where Jews are still enslaved, that is Israel Only there are women and children are murdered with impunity and the negotiaions are held with their murderers.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by alexbmn

Do these sound like the words of government who is ready to wage a decisive war against murderous enemy and to protect its people? If there is any place on earth where Jews are still enslaved, that is Israel Only there are women and children are murdered with impunity and the negotiaions are held with their murderers.

Sorry to say that you're right about this.

I don't think that the Israeli government truly understands that it is already at war and needs to start shooting back immediately before there is no more nation to defend.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by alexbmn
Do you honestly think that a death of mere 15 Jews would mean that that the country has reached turning point? How are they different from the hundredh that were murdered in the previous 18 months. No my friends the oucome is quite a bit more pessimistic then you realize. Just look at some of the quotes made by memebrs of the Israeli government today.


Yes, these quotes are very foolish. It sounds like Sharon and Bush have both surrendered to terrorism.

The only Israeli leader who I think would know what to do is Netanyahu. But I don't know enough about the workings of Israel's democracy to know whether he could be brought in quickly enough.

I think the problem is that making Netanyahu PM will require a new Knesset. Am I correct?

Do others feel Netanyahu is the best man for the job?

[L@mplighterM]

I’m a byproduct of the old school and I realize that peace will never be a realistic option in Israel.

The leadership in the US is not helping with the situation and most likely never will. This I believe is due to the fact that they don’t have a clear definition of the enemy.

How many times have we heard from the US administration that “Arafat must do better”?

Check the closest following number:

[] 10 TIMES [] 100 TIMES [] 500 TIMES [] 1000 TIMES


Just this morning I read Arafat’s fighting words on CNN (They disappeared quickly)

Bush is deaf, dumb, stupid and hopelessly clued out about the situation. Perhaps his advisors are Islamic Fundamentalists or close too it.

I don’t know about anyone else but I’m ______ off hearing that phrase time and time again. It’s unbelievable that a two-bit Arab like Arafat can cause this much grief.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
I think the problem is that making Netanyahu PM will require a new Knesset. Am I correct?

Do others feel Netanyahu is the best man for the job?

Netanyahu is definitely the best man for conducting a military campaign that will serve as a deterrent to the Arabs. He is also the best man for Israeli PR and mass media representation.

But he is not the best man to get through the impossible maze of Israeli inter-party politics, where the system lets his political opponents constantly threaten to bring down the government, as they did during his last tenure.

Despite his political trials and tribulations, if Israelis went to the polls now, analysts predict that Netanyahu would stand a very good chance of defeating Sharon for the position of PM.

But the mechanism for Israeli elections is very time-consuming and cumbersome. The quickest I remember elections being conducted was 90 days after a no-confidence vote was cast. And even after the election, there is an extended period of political horse-trading that takes place to form a ruling coalition.

Netanyahu would not be required to swap out the knesset, per se, but in practice he would need to put together a coalition government that would be, IMO, very different than Sharon's today. The players would be reshuffled. I would be shocked if the process would take less than 120 days to complete.

But for the time being, there hasn't even been a no-confidence vote cast, so it looks like Sharon will remain in office for the time being. I hope he is able to break free of the US and EU pressures on him not to defend Israel.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
How many times have we heard from the US administration that “Arafat must do better”?

Check the closest following number:

[] 10 TIMES [] 100 TIMES [] 500 TIMES [] 1000 TIMES

No doubt it's closer to 1000 and can go on forever unless Israel ignores the US pressure and takes care of business the way they know how.

In the long-run, the US interests will be much better served by Israel destroying the terrorist infrastructure that threatens both Israel and the US.

[Flame]

Is it my imagination or is there just a limited pool of politicans that jst get re-cycled in Israel? I seem to remember that people weren't happy with Netanyahu... but I don't remember why... (((( other than how every leader handles the arab problem.)

And where is the security at all these public places? Why do businesses keep hiring arabs? The report is, that the 2 new arab guys hired 2 weeks earlier had a hand in today attack.

I think some more arab PR (short for propaganda?) will be aired tonight on NBC... some interview or something.

[L@mplighterM]

I believe that they hire Arabs because they are a necessity of life in Israel.

[ibrodsky]

My fear is that Ariel Sharon wants to shake the militant Islamic charge that he is a "war criminal." So he wants to be remembered as showing restraint. Unfortunately, Israel can't afford that anymore.

I want to suggest something that many people may find abhorrent... but I think it may be a necessary option. (Though I think it is extremely unlikely.) Maybe what Israel needs right now is a military coup.

Let the IDF take over. Then every decision will be based on winning the war. No more worrying about diplomacy. No more worrying about trade. None of these things matter if you are dead, anyway.

Look at Mussharef in Pakistan. The US doesn't have any trouble dealing with him, though he came to power through a coup.

Am I crazy? What good is a gov't that refuses to "get" that militant Islam doesn't want a cease fire with Israel, they want (as Netanyahu would say) a cease fire without Israel.

Please, someone tell me why I shouldn't think a military coup would be the best thing for Israel right now. Never thought I would even come close to thinking such a thing...

[Flame]

Frankly, I'm surprised more citizens haven't gone berzurk... like that (rabbi??? forgot his name) who lost it and went on a shooting spree. I would not trust myself to visit Israel... I for sure would go nuts... and I've never even hit a person in my entire life.

[alexbmn]

Israel's best general is traumatized after Lebanon and it has rendered him useless as a Prime minister.And regarding the people of Israel ,I really dont know whether they are suicidal or what.Do they like being blown up at random? How about a huge demonstration demanding that the government do something.

[L@mplighterM]

Sharon is not a cold-blooded killer. He?s just an old man who has run out of testosterone and has become Arafat?s puppet. Arafat cries help to the US and the EU and they come down on Israel.

Guerrilla warfare is better than a coup de tat by the IDF. With the military there?s always going to be accountability, guerillas just fade into the woodwork and disappear. That?s why the Palestinians are winning right now if indeed there is such a thing.

Vengeance is a powerful tool in the hands of many people and I would certainly be one that would be looking for vengeance.

But the way the situation currently stands is that there?s a civilized government in place there and cool heads must prevail. If the government participated in ethnic cleansing it would spell the end to the state.

It?s a tough nut to crack.

[McSceptic]

Yup, L@mplighterM is right. Israel is able to get away with a lot less than, say, Iraq or Syria has. We seem to hold our own to account a lot more than the others.

To put it in American terms, the conflict isn't something nice and simple like the US vs. Mexico (or even Canada), but more like black Americans vs white Americans, or Protestants vs Catholics.

It would take a lot of effort over many years to seperate the two populations.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by McSceptic

To put it in American terms, the conflict isn't something nice and simple like the US vs. Mexico (or even Canada), but more like black Americans vs white Americans, or Protestants vs Catholics.


No, the US versus Mexico is an excellent comparison. Not that Mexico is an enemy, but in that there are Mexicans living both here and in Mexico.

Israel can, and must, retake all of the West Bank and Gaza and then hunt down and kill all Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al Aqsa Brigades members. Take no prisoners!

Let the rest of the world complain. Maybe what Israel needs is to first announce to the world that no country can let this happen without using all of the force it can muster to fight it. If civilians are going to die in droves, let them be Palestinian civilians.

[gev]

I think that there should have been fences and mines between us and the occupied terretories a long time ago.

the only possible argument against it, is that if we do it under the pressure of terror attacks, then terror organisations will gain strength because they will claim that under this pressure, Israel has retreated, and more can be gained using Terror.

I think Israel should first go to a big operation of hunting down all terrorists on all the West Bank and Gaza. but then the end of the operation would have to be a retreat and implementaton of the Seperation plan - evacuation of several settlements and building a secured border.
This has several advantages:
- Terror Attacks will not be as easy as today, in fact from very hard to impossible.
- Palestanian excuse of Terror attacks as a way to fight occupation will be gone (Israel has retreated from the area), if played right All palestanian struggle will lose its support internationally.
- after understanding that terror got them no where, and the region will be quite for some time, Palestanian People Majority will support talks for the end of the conflict.

[Shuki]

Settlers and settlements will be the death of us all if we are not careful. I agree with your suggestion about separation, but it is not a long term solution.

We need to shrink our borders slightly into areas that are more easily defended. Settlements on the far reaches will probably have to be disbanded, but for the sake of safety it needs to be done. There is no point in over-extending ourselves.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Shuki
I agree with your suggestion about separation, but it is not a long term solution.

Shuki,

Why is separation not a long-term solution? Every country has international borders. Why not between Israel and the Palestinians?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by gev
evacuation of several settlements and building a secured border.

gev,

I agree that some Jewish settlements and some Arab settlements ultimately might need to be evacuated. The goal is to create a defensible international border that can be monitored effectively, as opposed to the now convoluted zig-zag lines that separate Israelis and Palestinians.

[L@mplighterM]

I hate to be a pessimist but I don’t see much room for optimism in this situation.

Hitler destroyed many buildings with his V1 and V2 rockets in London. I don’t have the exact number of civilian casualties but I’m sure they were in the hundreds.

If Israel closes one door another will just open. There’s no way that cold-blooded killers can be stopped. The orders or justification for the killing originate with the religious teachers.

I for one would not tolerate missiles being lopped in my backyard. If the Israel courts or government does not ease up on the laws to defend oneself it will never end.

On the other hand it’s not in the Jewish psyche to participate in indiscriminate killings of civilians. I could not image Rabbis counseling Jews to strap explosives on themselves and order them to kill defenseless children, women and men.

Is it the destiny of Jews to be eliminated and follow the route of other extinct species? At the moment it would seem that way. Humans have always been an easily replaceable commodity and have always been used as pawns in evil games.

If the current situation continues it’s not difficult to imagine the end of Israel as a State. The economic impact of terrorism has to be staggering to say the least. Human misery and the quality of life has to be suffering tremendously and the frustration felt by the populace due to the governments seeming inability to deal with the situation must at a all time high.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


Shuki,

Why is separation not a long-term solution? Every country has international borders. Why not between Israel and the Palestinians?

Separation does not end the problem of the hatred being taught to young Palestinians. It is only a buffer zone that may provide some relief from the terror, but it will not end it.

Until the Pals stop teaching their children to hate us we will not see an end to the violence.

[bakuda]

SHARON!!! What is he doing to stop this?!?! People elected him to do something about this, now he is doing nothing!!! Sharon... is all smoke and mirrors. NOW is the time Sharon "the hawk" should be acting... and decisively.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Shuki
Until the Pals stop teaching their children to hate us we will not see an end to the violence.

I'm not sure about that, although you're right about the separation not stopping the hatred.

At this point, I can see that this generation and maybe the next generation of Arabs will never stop hating Jews. Not great, but really no big deal.

The main thing is to just focus on preventing the Arabs from translating their hatred into murder -- not eliminating the hatred itself.

[gev]

The seperation Plan will make it hard on the Palestanians to do the terror atacks we see every day in israel. it is the answer to this problem. other threats such as Rockets, will have to be delt with differently. The threats of Rockets remains with or without the Seperation Plan, so we still gain the stopping of suicide bombers. and there will be more International support for Israeli actions after such Rockets attacks, if the land is not occupied by Israel.

altough there is ofcourse the Jerusalem issue...

[L@mplighterM]

There was once a woman that saw a half frozen snake on the sidewalk. Feeling sorry for the creature she took it inside and placed it by the fireside. When it was completely thawed it gave her a great big bite.
X X
\/ \/
/\ /\


There was once a nation that thought it could give the Palestinians land and be loved in return. The whole world felt sorry for the people that didn’t have their own land. So the nation eventually gave them land in exchange for a promise that they would change their evil ways. Eventually they ended up with their own land and developed weapons to destroy the people that gave them the land. In the end the nation that relinquished the land ceased to exist.

I for one is ______ off with Arafat’s BS. Right now he’s crying PEACE and few days ago it was a call to arms. If people can’t be nice to you when they want something they sure aren’t going to be nice to you when they have gotten when they want. If anyone thinks that isn’t the truth try returning a used car.