Arafat cease-fire and more dead Israelis [Archive]

edaly

03-28-2002, 03:58 PM

I have to agree that Arafat is possibly one of the worst leaders I've ever seen. A truce from him doesn't mean much since he seems to have only the faintest control over the extremist groups that carry out most of the attacks.

However I don't think the recent terror attacks should prevent Israel from negotiating. A peace agreement with the PA would pave the way for the withdrawal from the occupied territories which would in turn dry up the popular support for continued attacks by the extremist groups. This is, IMO, a first necessary step towards eliminating the terror attacks.

There's a reason 80%+ of palestinians support suicide bombings - their cities are under constant siege, they are humiliated at every turn by the Israelis (how would you feel if you had to strip naked at a checkpoint every time you drove to the other side of town?), and most importantly, their own family members have been killed during IDF operations like bombings and searches for terrorists in refugee camps.

Unfortunately both sides seem to be locked in a "you go first" catch-22 situation. Neither wants to actually make any concessions without the other making theirs first. Each side is so concerned with retaliating for the last round of civilians killed on their side that they can't break out of the tit-for-tat spiral.

Here's what I think Israel should do: negotiate an immediate cease-fire with Arafat, knowing full well that there will be more terror attacks, and not letting that stop them. Because moving further down the path to peace is more important than the need for short-term retaliation.

Here's what I think Arafat should do: declare an immediate cease-fire without first getting any Israel agreement or concessions. Put the heaviest pressure he can on the militant groups - put them in jail and DON'T release them even when Israel retaliates for the recent attacks like he does every time. Take the bombings and incursions and searches and civilian causalties and LUMP it, because moving further down the path to peace is more important than the need for short-term retaliation.

Both are unlikely to happen.. but imagine if one side were to make concessions "in good faith" without getting immediate results from the other side? If they weren't destroyed by the outcry of their own people, it might actually work.

edaly

ibrodsky

03-29-2002, 03:47 AM

Originally posted by edaly
I have to agree that Arafat is possibly one of the worst leaders I've ever seen. A truce from him doesn't mean much since he seems to have only the faintest control over the extremist groups that carry out most of the attacks.

No, he is one of the most successful terrorists in history. Thanks to Western moral confusion and liberal fantasies, the Father of All Terrorists has been elevated to the position of "Noble Peace Prize" winner and statesman.

However I don't think the recent terror attacks should prevent Israel from negotiating. A peace agreement with the PA would pave the way for the withdrawal from the occupied territories which would in turn dry up the popular support for continued attacks by the extremist groups. This is, IMO, a first necessary step towards eliminating the terror attacks.

You simply don't get it. Israel has done everything conceivable to get a "peace agreement." Arafat's terrorist PA doesn't want a peace agreement, they want Israel to surrender. The idea that Arafat and groups like Hamas are opposed to each other is simply untrue, and that has been proven over and over. Arafat got an armed police force not to fight the terrorists, but to kill Jews.

There's a reason 80%+ of palestinians support suicide bombings - their cities are under constant siege, they are humiliated at every turn by the Israelis (how would you feel if you had to strip naked at a checkpoint every time you drove to the other side of town?), and most importantly, their own family members have been killed during IDF operations like bombings and searches for terrorists in refugee camps.

And why are their cities "under constant siege"? Because they engage in the most brutal and evil terrorist attacks. It isn't just a handful of extremists. The PA has turned every school, every media outlet, and every mosque in the territories into a terrorist promotion, training, and recruitment center.

It's good that you feel sorry for Palestinian families who have suffered. But what about Israeli families who have suffered? With 85% of Palestinians supporting suicide bomb attacks, IMO they bear collective rsponsibility.

(Today's attack was by a 16 year old girl. How can a 16 year old girl kill herself out of "desperation"? She has no experience. She killed herself because she was brainwashed by militant Islam to be a walking, ticking, Jew killer.)

Unfortunately both sides seem to be locked in a "you go first" catch-22 situation. Neither wants to actually make any concessions without the other making theirs first. Each side is so concerned with retaliating for the last round of civilians killed on their side that they can't break out of the tit-for-tat spiral.

Nonsense. Israel offered a Palestinian state, 96% of the West Bank, East Jerusalem as their capital. Now, if this was not a perfect offer, surely it contained major concessions. But the PA responded not with a counter offer, but a war. Really, they are the ones who are completely intransigent: they demand that Israel give in on all of their demands, particularly the right to relocate one million hostile Arabs to within Israel.

It is all just a ruse to destroy Israel.

Here's what I think Israel should do: negotiate an immediate cease-fire with Arafat, knowing full well that there will be more terror attacks, and not letting that stop them. Because moving further down the path to peace is more important than the need for short-term retaliation.

Incredible.

Zinni and Israel proposed a cease fire. The PA came back with a long list of questions. Then, while the questions were being answered they unleashed a wave of terror -- the long-planned Passover massacres.

The wave of terror was the PA's response to the cease fire proposal.

When will you get it? How many lies, how much anti-semitic propaganda, how many brutal attacks will it take?

Here's what I think Arafat should do: declare an immediate cease-fire without first getting any Israel agreement or concessions. Put the heaviest pressure he can on the militant groups - put them in jail and DON'T release them even when Israel retaliates for the recent attacks like he does every time. Take the bombings and incursions and searches and civilian causalties and LUMP it, because moving further down the path to peace is more important than the need for short-term retaliation.

Of course, he always declares a "cease fire" just after a wave of terrorist attacks and as Israel begins to take action to defend itself.

Maybe he should tell Hamas and Islamic Jihad that this time he is really mad. Yep, Yasir Arafat ain't gonna take no more from the terrorists. You know, he has dedicated his life to fighting terrorists...

Meanwhile, Arafat has been busy calling for one million martyrs (read "terrorists" to those with their eyes open).

Both are unlikely to happen.. but imagine if one side were to make concessions "in good faith" without getting immediate results from the other side? If they weren't destroyed by the outcry of their own people, it might actually work.
edaly

I can only think of one word in response: Naive.

Flame

03-29-2002, 06:06 AM

ibrodsky,

The last thing Daly is naive. For the last 2 or more years he has made a career of bombarding Jewish message boards with his pro-plo stance.... all the while calling for balance and declaring how "he is interested in learning." In 2 year you woudl think he would have learned something ... but he continues to jump from one messae board to another where he finds joy in calling Jews racist, calling for balance, and act as if he is the moral authority (in between drug rehab)... and lives in peace and comfort and safety in Vancouver CA.

This is a predetor, a liar, a stalker and a highly disturbed individual who's favorite passtime is to find where Jews gather and tell them off.

raven

03-29-2002, 07:15 AM

ibrodsky: Let me introduce jdaly to you. This guy spends night and day looking for Jewish Forums to post on. He does Post night and day on this subject only. He has a fixation first with Jews, and then with the Is/Pal. issue. He starts out pretending he doesnt know much about the subject and then increasinly that he is Pro Pal becomes clear to all.

He makes excuses for every Palistinian outrage, attack and murder, including 9/11. He tries to cover his bias by claiming he is for "PEACE". This is not true as you will learn.

He watches us bleed and this is his entertainment. This is also how he manages his stress. He uses these and other boards to keep him from taking Heroin and Alchol. (He has admitted that he is both an Alcholic and a Herioin Addict--incidently HE loves to talk about his addiction). These boards are both Fun and Therapy for HIS PROBLEM. We are so sorry about his problem but that doesnt excuse his hatred of Israel and Jews.

There is NOTHING this guy doesnt understand about the subject. Hes been at it on the BOARDS for 2 years. How long he has called and written Radio and TV in his home town and Nationally is anyones guess. Dont play his game. He knows ALL.

Just thought you ought to know.

watcher

03-29-2002, 07:25 AM

john daly also likes to post under various usernames in forum history to promote his views of terrorism... correction to promote terrorism.

ibrodsky

03-29-2002, 07:40 AM

Thanks Watcher, Raven, and Flame.

Next time I won't be so nice to him.

raven

03-29-2002, 08:03 AM

Watcher: Daly was here before as Jean Le--something or other. I told people just who he was and he went away. He hates his little "I dont know about this subject/I just wanna learn/ Im for PEAACCEE/ Act to be disturbed. ITs sick.

Our death and destruction is ENTERTAINMENT and FUN for this man.

raven

03-29-2002, 08:08 AM

While Im at it. I dated and almost married a Guy from Netanya. So I take what has happened yesterday, (was it?--loosing count already) rather personally. Have to see if I can find him, IF he is still in the US and see if his family is OK. (Ben Ami--if you read these boards, L. wants to know if your family is OK) [shot in the dark]

NewsGuy

03-29-2002, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by edaly
However I don't think the recent terror attacks should prevent Israel from negotiating.
I'm not sure how rewarding Arafat for terrorism can achieve anything at the negotiating table.

In fact, so long as Arafat thought that his terrorism would not be punished, he produced all kinds of pre-conditions and ridiculous demands to derail the negotiations with Zinni. In Arafat's mind, he was sure that he could get more out of the negotiations if he used terrorism at the same time.

But as soon as he saw the IDF tanks in massive numbers heading directly to his headquarters, he all of a sudden tried to talk about a peace plan again.

Clearly, it is a waste of time (and worse) to negotiate while terorrism is ongoing.

Hopefully, Arafat's replacement will get the message that terrorism needs to be eliminated or no rewards will be handed out.

Both are unlikely to happen.. but imagine if one side were to make concessions "in good faith" without getting immediate results from the other side? If they weren't destroyed by the outcry of their own people, it might actually work.

Well, for about 3 years Israel withdrew its troops completely from the major Palestinian urban centers and gave the Palestinians complete control by their own government over their day-to-day lives.

What did Israel get in return? More and more terrorism and continuous mass murder of Israelis.

In fact, that's extactly what toppled the dovish Barak government and got Sharon elected on the platform that he would take a harder line against Arab terrorism.

Making concessions to the Palestinians was always, unfortunately, a waste of time accompanied by loss of life.

Flame

03-29-2002, 11:20 AM

This is the point of no return.... and what do I just hear on the news????????? A call for Israel to show restrain! How many cease fires have been ignored? How many acts of terrorism has Israel endured. GO FOR IT!

raven

03-29-2002, 11:31 AM

Like I said: Israel...LOCK AND LOAD-already.

Youall...CNN is presenting one Pro Pal "commentator" after the other. Weve had a steady diet of Christiane Amapour, most probably an Agent, (which or how many sides she is an agent for no one knows) for the Arabs. Now we are going to see BAY BUCHANNON and Donna Brazil. Call or write anywhere you can to tell the Israeli side to get off their behinds and demand to come onto CNN and present the Israili side. As usual they are slow on the uptake and whats said FIRST and MOST OFTEN is remembered.

raven

03-29-2002, 11:48 AM

Amapour is having a PERSONAL one on one interview with Arafat right now on CNN. She would NOT have been granted this interview IF Arafat and the Pals did not consider her ON THEIR SIDE. Object to this on CNN. Demand to have Israel represented more fairly TODAY...

raven

03-29-2002, 01:32 PM

F. I see you are here. We told the truth and we did GOOD.

Shuki

03-29-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by raven
Amapour is having a PERSONAL one on one interview with Arafat right now on CNN. She would NOT have been granted this interview IF Arafat and the Pals did not consider her ON THEIR SIDE. Object to this on CNN. Demand to have Israel represented more fairly TODAY...

Look at the last part of their exchange

AMANPOUR: Secretary of State Colin Powell has spoken to you, I understand. He has also spoken publicly. He called on you to rein in the violence. What do you make of that statement, and can you and will you rein in that violence?

ARAFAT: Are you asking me while I am under complete siege? You are a wonderful journalist. You have to respect your profession.

AMANPOUR: Mr. Arafat, I'm simply asking you a question. Are you able to rein in the violence?

ARAFAT: You have to be accurate when you are speaking with General Yasser Arafat. Be quiet! You are covering, with such questions, the terrorist activities of the Israeli occupation and the Israeli crimes. Be fair. Why do you make these certain mistakes?

Thank you. Bye, bye.

raven

03-29-2002, 02:18 PM

Amapour isnt an idiot. She has to seem to ask a couple of hard questions OR people like me will have the red meat we need to have her thrown the hell off CNN.

Dont worry, she will make up for her disrespect to Arafat next time.

All you had to do is listen to her, watch her face and her body language and listen to the specific words she chose to use. All meant to influce US Citizens into not supporting Israel. All meant to enlist sympathy for a murderer and Terrorist.

This is NOT merely a Journalist. Like Peter Arnet this woman is a Avocate at best and a Agent most probably.

raven

03-30-2002, 06:22 AM

ibrodsky and watcher: (anyone else as well) we could use your input on www.votervoices.com on the Isr/Pal. board. So few of us and so many of them-in general.

Israel Forum. com..hope you dont mind. We want as much participation in as many places as we can manage. Thanks.

raven

03-30-2002, 06:24 AM

Lamplighter --Ceruean--- You too. Please come and take a look at votervoices ...C

L@mplighterM

03-30-2002, 03:23 PM

I did take a lÂºÂºk and it seems like the site would take a bit getting used too.

Thanx

raven

03-31-2002, 07:37 AM

Lamp_ right now there are three or four Nazi types...real ones--posting over there. They dont even TRY to hide their feelings. As you can see there are lots of subjects covered. THe Pal/Isr. Board and the Terrorism Board is very active. They keep having to Archive them cause there is so much.

Anyone know if CNN has closed down its Isr/Pal Board? I cant seem to get on. There must be a place to Post there. Anybody going THERE and posting? Please leave address so I can get on.

CNN has made itself a party to the hositilities and I think we need to comment on it. They made is possible for a DELEGATION of Europeans to get to Arafat. It made a good story for them. The CNN Newspeople ran interference for the Delegation and set up the story that they keep reporting on.

****I say to Israel, KEEP YOUR OWN CAMERAS running. You will need to have pictures of eveything you do as CNN is now solidly on the side of the poor, Palistinians. You cannot depend on images produced by this squewed so called News Organization. They are hot to produce images of a "war crime" so be ready to counter that so called story.

L@mplighterM

03-31-2002, 08:05 AM

Neo-Nazis and anti-semites are everywhere around the world. It would be nice if they were all losers* but that isn?t the case. I?ve infiltrated chats; Arabic, Pakistani and Turkish chats and for the most part the people there had the same ideology. Oh! I know how Turks are supposed to be moderate but I didn?t find it that way on chat.
News organizations are openly supporting Palestinians since Israel?s latest incursion into the occupied territories. Reporters are no longer remaining neutral on BBC and CNN. Psychopaths are good at manipulation and Arafat is a master.

* there are people in high positions of power such as former Presidents and Graham.

Negev

03-31-2002, 08:30 AM

to raven and flame:

that votervoices sux. there aren't even different threads. it's just one big mush full of mentally ill nasty people shouting at each other and i don't know why you or anyone else bothers with it. who cares what a nazi or two thinks on that crabby site.

I come to this forum to get away from all the nastiness and shouting on sites like voter voices.

for my dime i'd rather discuss with people like newsguy, ibrodsky, sharonb, anti-intifada, ezra, gev, bakuda, even lamplighter has some good stuff to say and victot's a nice kid. and even takeo and a-palestinian have interesting stuff to say. with me that's already a dozen people who blow away the losers on almost every other board on the internet and every day there are more.

and the cnn board like the yahoo boards scrolls too fast for anyone to follow the discussions and it's always the last post that is who has the last word. like i said, who cares.

just take it easy and keep to the facts. and don't bother to do recruiting for those lousy sites. it would work out much better if you privately invite the better members from those sites to visit here instead.

raven

03-31-2002, 08:50 AM

Lamplighter: You are absolutely right. To think that Antisemites are uneducated, uninformed Yahoos...is a big mistake. It has always been a misstake. This hatred shows itself in all groups and all income and educational levels. Each group fiends benefits to itself from holding antisemetic views. Weve just seen evidences of it at the highest income and social level in GB. where at gatherings these hi level people now feel comfortable in expressing their hatred of Israel and JEWS outloud.

Turkish Sites TOO? Im surprised. Well not all THAT surprised. Im sorry to hear it.

--------------

Negev. I like to use Caps. Skip over it if you dont care for them.
Outrage is the appropriate reaction to what is happening. Thats the normal human reaction and I dont moderate my reaction to please the others that are watching. Jews do too much of that already.

raven

03-31-2002, 09:00 AM

Negev: I feel that we should make an effort to have an input in CNN. CNN is framing the storyline right now. Reality has nothing to do with the situation, according to CNN. If we dont have our input, whatever CNN SAYS the situation is...will be the reality for most of the world.

I know CNN scrolls very fast. Very bad for me. BUT I would like to say what I know is true, sometimes countering CNN, for all to see.

You can see CNN trying to construct an Isralai "war crime" to present to the audience, as we speak. Israel has to be ready for that. It is done to discredit Israel and balance the so called story.
They MUST present Israel as much as the bad guy as the Palistinians. True or NOT they are going to attempt to do this.

Jews seems to never recongnize the debth of hatred of others. I wish it was not true but it seems to be.

All the best to you in this stressful time. And it is stressful.

L@mplighterM

03-31-2002, 09:33 AM

Anti-Semites and Neo-Nazis are everywhere my wifeâ€™s ex-doctor whoâ€™s a _______ Jew even has strong pro-Palestinian views. His opinions have been published in newspapers from time to time.

What drives Bush is difficult to figure yesterday he seemed to do an about turn regarding the middle-east situation. Itâ€™s good that people can change midstream but I really feel that itâ€™s been a stop go type of a situation with him. Is it Senators and Congressmen that have pressured him?

Powel I donâ€™t like and I newer have.

Many of the Turks on chat are pigs the way they talk about western women. Since 9/11 I havenâ€™t visited any Moslem sites much (just the odd time). As a matter of fact I used to chat one on one with many people from Europe but they have been eliminated from my ICQ because of their political views. Occasionally I still drop by for a Hello on live chat but I avoid people that have philosophical opinions that differ to greatly from mine.

Whenever I went on chat I always pretended that I was one of them and that I couldnâ€™t write the language because I was brought up in the US.

raven

03-31-2002, 09:55 AM

Lamp: Heres what I THINK? about Bush. He himself, has a natural affinity for Israel, a Democracy, a fit for his Born Again type of Christianity. BUT...we all know very well, that what he thinks and feels is not going to be the policy of the Country. You can first look to his Dad, the former President, who is part of the American Community that has been involved with the Arab World for at least 4 generations. (I can tell you about a book that tells the entire story of this involvement). Daddy Bush and and the Politos that he surroundred himself with were particularly pro Arab, thus Pro Pal. and at the time time, very..very..anti Israel. Thats just the facts of the situation. Most of those very same people were either State Dept People or Security/Defense People that are called "Arabists". They work in and out of Government supporting the Arab View.

I surmise, that little Bush reacts to the reality of the situation, opens his mouth, then the Dad and the Advisors come in (Advisors are Dads Friends and Associates that ARE essentially the President) and little Bush is made to backtrack. I assume they tell him that he doesnt have the experience to know the rammifications of what he wants to do.

As for Powell. We all knew what he was about. This is before the election. We are in this mess we are with Iraq, because of Powells and others infludence on the then furious Big Bush. In the end, it is "Dont anger the Arabs"..or else. So they didnt. and so we now have Iraq woking on Bateriological and Nuke Bombs- unchecked.

This is SO important for America and its future. If you wobble and parse the meaning of Terrorism in respect to Israel, we wont be able to have clarity on that subject right here. It will be a disasterous mistake to try to fiddle around with that concept...just to appease the Arab World. This CAN stop. If America means business and the Arab world knows that most of America means to demonize their barbarous actions, then it WILL stop. If they think their payed lobbyiests are getting somewhere by "muddying the waters" on this issue, it wont stop. In fact, it will begin right here with all SORTS of Groups with all sorts of issues.

L@mplighterM

03-31-2002, 10:24 AM

Yes I think you have it down to a T.

From time to time I wonder what it would be like with Gore at the helm.

Would he have reacted in the same manner after 9/11? What position would he be taking in the current middle-east crisis?

Would everything he said and did be placed under a microscope by the Arab world and the EU (because his vice-president was Jewish)?

How could Lieberman act as an emissary in the Arab world?

raven

04-01-2002, 08:19 AM

Lamp: Heres what I know about this subject in general. Im born and brought up in Washington, DC and have been around Government and Politics all my life. Here in the DC area Government and Politics are a "hobby" for everyone. It goes 24/7 for our citizens around here. Most families either are themselves or have relatives in Govt and Politics so there is a body of knowledge that is more complete than citizens in other cities. (people who live in LA know more about Show Biz and inside poop on it than people who live in other cities--people in DC know more about Politics and Govnt just cause we are here with alot of inside info)

This is something most people might not know. Foreign Policy is made by the State Dept. and the State Dept in coordination with the Defense Dept and the Security Agencies. It is their area of Power. Most of the time the President, whoever he is, follows their lead. It takes a very strong President to push aside their recommendations and make his own policy. (only Truman so far) So you would have seen the same information (true or not)comming to Gore as you are with Bush. With the complication of Lieberman. I DID and DID NOT want Lieberman for the reasons you said. He would have had to "bend over backwards" to SHOW...he wasnt biased. That would have been a distortion.

The State Dept has had a 70 year record of flat out Antisemetic and then AntiIsrael attitudes. The Bushes and the people in their social and business and political group ARE essentially people from the State Dept and the Security Agencies. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that as soon as little Bush reacts to the real facts and makes a statement, there is a flurry and within a few days, he backtracks. He IS going to be told that he will NOT be allowed to do what he wants. Thats all there is to it. He really isnt the President and all of us know that. That IS one of the reasons I objected to him taking office. We have no idea who is really making the decisions right now.

Who little Bush is...makes a difference. You can come into his office and tell him that he doesnt understand the full implications of his so called Policy and get away with it...with Gore, they couldnt do that. That particular game couldnt have been played on Gore. SO...the State Dept would have probably played another game- to get their way-using Lieberman, maybe.

It is a shock that America all of a sudden, depite the American Peoples wishes for 30 years is supporting a Pal. State. I have to look on this as quite a serious matter. All American Citizens need to ask why our consistant wishes and votes are being swept aside. If it happens on this issue it will happen on the NEXT issue.

raven

04-01-2002, 08:34 AM

Lamp: Sorry to be so long winded...I did want to bring up a story that has been reported in detail several times but seemed not to alarm the American Public.

It has been definately reported that while Little Bush was making policy his DAD was on the phone, in his presence, to the Saudis, and assuring the Saudis, that his "boy" would "do the right thing". This is outrageous. Who the hell is our President? We threw out Daddy Bush. This is no way for a Democratic Country to do business.

There has been absolutely no reaction to this story. A thrown out President sitting in the WH and contradicting the sitting President's policy while the sitting President is 20 feet away. Its amazing. Its also worrysome.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 09:44 AM

Advisers as you say dominate American foreign policy. While the latest terrorist attacks are fresh in peoples mind I think that Bush had to back Israel for the time being at least. His speech wasnâ€™t a fiery and it seemed like he was presented it with great reluctance.

In the changing scenery of the world it will not take people long to forget the horrid events caused by suicide bombers. What if they stop their attacks for a week or two?

Israel will be deeply entrenched in the West Bank and Gaza Strip fighting an invisible enemy and the terror that it faced will be long forgotten by the rest of the world. That is if they really cared in the first place.

As I sit and write this a conference is/has taken taking place in Malaysia the whole article can be found on www.post.com but Iâ€™ll post a paragraphs from it.

(18:00) Muslim conference: Are suicide bombers terrorists?
By Hamza Hendawi, The Associated Press

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia - Islamic countries meeting to find a definition for terrorism agreed today that Israel's latest offensive in the West Bank qualifies, but split on whether it should also cover Palestinian suicide bombers.

Presumably that means that if I were Palestinian suicide bomber it would be all right to some member of the conference if I were to enter a maternity ward and detonate my bomb.

I think that at this point the best thing is to contact Bush, Cheney and Powell (Barf) and let them know that you support the current stance taken by the US. I have done this.

I suppose that contacting members of the Israeli government showing support for their actions is also in order.

raven

04-01-2002, 10:37 AM

You are absolutely right about the span of time..An incident happens, it looks BAD ...NOT.... to be outraged and condemn it, but they do know that the more these inicidents happen, the more the world "gets used to it" and the outrage of it...looses steam. People just get used to it and there isnt any outrage any more.

All the people who mean Israel ILL, have to do, is wait a little. Soon the bombings will be "old news" and they will be able to glom onto any kind of "hook" - (an incident by Israel that they can use to say that "Israel went too far") to trash Israel and put presssure on Israel to pull back and pull out.

I am aware that they are transforming the meaning of the word "Terrorism". Doing this right before our eyes. This is bought and payed for PR. It will be interesting IF the US clearly condemns this playing around with the term "Terrorist". It has implications for America.

Im hearing another tack they are taking. They dont want to criticize Israel cause she has a RIGHT to defend herself...BUT...BUT...(there is always a BUT) It Isnt Working. The "It isnt working" mantra started big time yesterday.. After the "it isnt working" will naturally flow, "you really should STOP it because, it isnt working".

Heard the first echoes of "oil embarge" scare tactics today. Lets see if it gets louder.

If that doesnt work, the forces FOR a Pal. State will try another tack. And if that doesnt work, they will do another.

I honestly dont know what they are going to do with this problem WORLD WIDE, if they fool around with the definition of this basic right and wrong. Terrorism is a specific type of action and is wrong. (I thought) Israel isnt the only place where this is happening. Europe, Africa, India, South Asia, Russia, ...all these places are being threatened by this type of behavior. All these places have to watch Islam (sadly) as they seem to be on the march again. What can I say...it is the reality.

Sorry...for such long diatribes...am particularly upset as I see what is happening over there.

raven

04-01-2002, 10:50 AM

I wrote my Senator and Sen. Feinstein and am in the process of writing my Congressperson. I have to calm the hell down before I dare to write the White House. Im not sure exactly what to say to them there. What the HELL is their policy? Today Arafat bad, tomorrow Arafat, sort of...bad...Tomorrow what? Have to be careful NOT to politicize the issue. The Arabs would love it. It would go far to split American Public Opinion and this is just what they want. (Im such a Political Animal...please excuse)

If you go to Feinsteins Web Page, she has the Bill that she is Sponsoring with Mitch McConnell (think it is he) that will close down the PLO offices here. They use the PLO Offices as Pseudo Embassys.

You might be able to find the bill on AIPAC. I am in process of writing whoever I can think of on the Hill that I am in favor of closing down these Pseudo Embassys...and all the perks and respectability that goes with them. This action will have more negative implications for Arafat--so it is rather important for it to pass.

Way more than enough from ME...sorry for the "Books" im writing.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 11:44 AM

At one time diplomacy was non-existent in my vocabulary. In a situation like the current one unfolding in the middle east where I have a clear well defined view of the situation in my mind itâ€™s difficult to bite my tongue. I have had a few posts deleted or censored and Iâ€™m trying to do better.

That any nation could even condone suicide bombings against private individuals is abhor able to me. Not only that I think itâ€™s a treat to the fibers that hold the civilized world together.

The flip flop actions of the US administration is difficult to understand even if you know the circumstances behind it all. Every morning that I wake up I expect to awaken to news that Bush has again ordered Sharon to withdraw.

The PLO should be considered a terrorist organization and I hope that soon that will be the case. I find it encouraging that many Senators and Congressmen view Arafat as a terrorist and recognize Israelis rights to defend it self.

I do believe that demonstrations supporting Israel and writing campaigns have the possibility of increasing US support for Israel. The odd letter, fax, phone call or email by them selves wonâ€™t add up to much but if enough people engage in this action it may help.

raven

04-01-2002, 11:53 AM

Good G-d: If the PLO isnt a Terrorist Organization, then there is no such thing as a Terrorist Organization.

This is a dangerous slippery slope for America to go down. Im hoping that someone around Bush can take over for him (he really doesnt have the experience and background and he knows it) and can fight the State Dept People and his own Dad. This will have ramifications for America forever... not overstating this. Glad you agree.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 12:00 PM

What's not to agree?

I'm sorry to say that there's been another suicide bombing in Jerusalem. Reports are that there are three casualties.

Flame

04-01-2002, 02:35 PM

Raven, maybe you already saw the article Lamp was talking about?

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/020401/1/2nb6z.html

What ever the point is came of to me as convaluted and scattered. But... from the little that was clear... if the defination of terrorism does not apply to pals because they are fightng for their land... the I suppose from now on, any nation defending itself from what we see as terrorism... will be the terrorists... too much double speak, inside out, upside down nonlogic and convaluted rheroric.

The entire thing has my head spinning... do more arafat... kaboom... defending yourself Israel is ok... well, no its not... oh wait... you're the terrorist.... arafat... do more...kaboom... what the hell has arafat even done other than incite more violence for all these years? A terrorist with a nobel peace prize... can't get any more bizarre than that.

He also made some disgusting remark how he is still working toward peace with his dear old friend Manachim... that somehow his spirit was with him.

raven

04-01-2002, 02:35 PM

Just turned the TV back on. Had to stop for a while. I see the pattern emerging. Each day there will be a list of Israeli "War Crimes" by Palistinian Activists of all kinds.

Some will be exaguations of incidents and some will be outright lies. Cnn will pretend that they cannot know "in the fog of war" whats true or what isnt, but they will contend that it is their responsibility to report ANYTHING that is said.

Meanwhile, true or not, this negative reporting of so called War Crimes will have an accumulative effect and the support for Israel will diminish. These stories are DESIGNED to hurt Israel.

They KNOW this. I think we can prove the Media, CNN especially, knows exactly what it is doing and even how long a time period it will take for these false stories to have an injurious affect on Israel. THats...really a "conspiracy to:(fill in the appropriate legal term here)......" That might be actionable.

raven

04-01-2002, 02:39 PM

"a second Holocaust-with Arabs as the Victims" GAG ME...for G-d Sakes. Discusting.

Flame

04-01-2002, 03:01 PM

Here's the latest

_________________________

HonestReporting members have asked for evidence of Palestinians using ambulances in military operations.

On March 27, a Palestinian Red Crescent ambulance driver was caught transporting an explosive belt containing 10 kilograms of explosives of the type detonated by suicide bombers, Israel Radio reported. The ambulance was stopped and searched between Nablus and Ramallah, and soldiers found the explosive belt under a stretcher upon which a Palestinian boy was lying. The boy's family was with him in the ambulance.

The ambulance driver told interrogators he received the belt from a senior Tanzim activist working for Palestinian Authority West Bank security chief Marwan Barghouti.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said it was "shocked and dismayed" and "condemns such abuse of an ambulance and of the Red Crescent emblem."

========================

HonestReporting Communique
April 1, 2002

Dear HonestReporting Member,

Over the course of the recent war, HonestReporting has noticed that whenever Palestinian terrorists commit a horrific attack against Israeli civilians, Palestinian spokesmen quickly responded with a tale of an Israeli atrocity.

Yesterday, after two Palestinian homicide bombers attacked in Haifa and Efrat, Palestinian spokesman Nabil Sha'ath went on CNN to report that 30 Palestinian women died in labor at Israeli checkpoints. The canard joins
other Palestinian claims of Israel using radioactive ammunition, Nazi tactics, and nerve gas along with the charges that Jewish settlers tortured Palestinians -- who investigations revealed had actually died in traffic accidents.

Last week, when two international observers were killed by Palestinian gunfire in Hebron, the Palestinians issued a statement simply saying that "Israel did it." No proof, just an accusation thrown out to the media to counter the previously established facts.

Some reporters buy the Palestinian tales hook, line, and sinker. Remember the Reuters reporter who described Palestinian residents of Beit Jalla as victims of Israeli gunfire, presenting as evidence the collection of
bullet casings collected by Beit Jalla residents. Yet bullet casings, ejected from the gun, are of course found at the origin of the shooting, not the target.

* * *

As Palestinian bombers blasted innocent civilians all over Israel this week, Palestinian spokesmen produced another "Israeli atrocity" -- claiming that Israel had "executed" five Palestinians in a Ramallah office building.

Here is how three reporters covered the story:

(1) Peter Beaumont, foreign affairs editor of The Observer (UK), filed "Without mercy: Israelis execute Arafat's elite guards" (March 31). [Later, The Observer's website changed the headline to "I saw the bodies, killed by a shot to the head."] The bulk of the story, including the headlines, accepts as gospel the Palestinian side of the story. Shalabi
saw the bodies hours after the firefight; it is likely that the Palestinian never saw them.

Beaumont graces the readers with 23 words of the Israeli side of the story.

Read Beaumont's article at:
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/187.asp

(2) Similar charges were filed by The Washington Post's Daniel Williams in "Killings Raise Questions About Israeli Tactics" (March 31). Williams reveals that five Palestinian police officers "had been shot in the head or neck, yet most of the blood on the wall near them was splattered no more than two or three feet high, according to a reporter who saw the scene."

Only six paragraphs later does Williams reveal that the reporter "who saw the scene" was an Abu Dhabi reporter Shalabi. And there are discrepancies between what Shalabi told Williams and Beaumont. Williams, quoting Shalabi, wrote, "There were no signs that the Palestinians had fired from their last position." Beaumont quotes Shalabi: "I heard heavy shooting; maybe it was an exchange of fire."

Williams claims that the five Palestinians were policemen in charge of traffic and border duty. Beaumont at least saw the bodies, and he reported that the men were dressed in the uniforms of Arafat's "elite guard unit,
Force 17." The unit is a front-line terrorist organization, not a bunch of traffic cops.

Some 200 words into his story, Williams gives lip service to the Israeli side of the story: "Israeli officials said the men were killed in a 'close firefight.'"

On another point: Williams included this unequivocal legal pronouncement: "Soldiers searched the ArabCare Hospital in downtown Ramallah for weapons, and for wounded fighters. Such searches are in breach of international rules of war."

As detailed at the very beginning of this communique, Palestinians are using ambulances to transport "suicide bomber explosive belts." Perhaps that explains why Israeli troops had a responsibility to inspect the hospital. One thing is certain: Williams had the responsibility to report on the Palestinian abuse of ambulances and the Palestinian Red Crescent. A computer search of The Washington Post's reporting last week failed to find mention of the Palestinian's breach of international rules of war.

Read Williams' article at:
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/188.asp

If you wish to complain about the Williams article, write to The
Washington Post editor at:
letters@washpost.com
(include home address, and home and business telephone numbers)

Letters to the Editor
The Washington Post 1150 15th Street Northwest Washington, DC 20071

Write to The Post ombudsman, Michael Getler, at:
ombudsman@washpost.com

(3) A much different story was presented by CNN reporter Michael Holmes (March 30). Unlike Williams and Beaumont, Holmes did not depend on third-hand reports. He visited the room. He saw the bodies of five dead
Palestinian "gunmen." He saw the uniforms. And he saw evidence of a gun battle.

"There are dozens and dozens of shell casings [at the scene]," Holmes reported, citing evidence of Palestinian gunfire. "The vast majority, in fact, almost all of those shell casings are from M-16s, which is the usual weapon of the Israeli army. [HR notes: M-16s are also used by Palestinians and are visible in all Palestinian demonstrations.] We found maybe half a dozen shells from AK-47s, which is what you normally see Palestinian gunmen using... Obviously, these were, however, people who were fighting because they were wearing army uniforms..."

Unlike his colleagues, Holmes doesn't jump to biased conclusions. "It would require a forensics team to work out what exactly happened," he reported.

Read Holmes' accounts at:
http://honestreporting.com/a/r/189.asp
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/30/cst.08.html

Thank you for your ongoing involvement in the battle against media bias.

HonestReporting.com

Flame

04-01-2002, 03:05 PM

I saw that article too... suggesting that Jews didn't defeat the Germans... as if the Jews were equal in the fighting... I don't know when it all started that the P's dressed themselves in the Jews story... the people without a nation... that list goes on and on and I'm so overwhelmed with everything that I can't even remember all the rhetoric.

raven

04-01-2002, 03:12 PM

Just missed a report of atrocities by Israeli Soldiers told to LOU DOBBS...again. They figured out HE would definately be one of the reporters to concentrate on, becuse of his stated Anti Israel views. It must be on the Transcript or will be. It was complete with Dobb's facial expression of worry and horror. Once the report was over by the half hysterical and threatening( you are hurting your own FINANCIAL interests) Palistinian Official, Dobbs went right on to another story. No Israeli was invited on afteer the Palistinaian to counter the story.

As I write I think the same man has come on (Jabril Rajoub) with Christiane Amapour. He is claiming Isralis are using Palistianians as "human shields"...and demanding American witnesses. Christiane is calling the man by his FIRST name. Interesting, isnt it?

It IS the same man who was on with Lou Dobbs.

So far, no Isreali is invited on to counter THIS particular report either. Not in person, not by phone.

And THIS is balanced reporting. Wonder if this made Honest Reporting.

Flame

04-01-2002, 03:24 PM

What I find more than disturbing is that the entire weekend and tonigh,t NBC national news interviewed arabs exclusively. The poor arabs in the middle, the poor misunderstood pals. And folks like you know who has the nerve to come to where Jews gather and complain about a lack of balance. ... which is exactly why we have a need to gather on this topic.

Jews control the media? How is this sort of reporting possible if that is the case... and I don't understand why the Jews who do work in the media go along with this.

Looks like islam is indeed the global superpower... 50 years ago no other nation would tell America what to do and what to say. I hope they do cut off our oil. That would be the best thing. Alaska has plenty and its time to implement alternatives.

Flame

04-01-2002, 03:28 PM

Oh yeah... the reporter was saying how IDF were shooting at them and when they showed them their ID IDF shot at them more... the car or something near by... and how dare Israel block them from entering..... right... all IDF needs is herds of reporters running all about, getting in the way of highly sensitive operations, getting killed, and they that gets spun as Israels fault.

raven

04-01-2002, 03:30 PM

The same thing is going on ..on CNN. Mostly Arabs and Pro Arab Lobbyests with War Crimes charges. First there is pleading with Americans to HELLLPPP them. Then next there is warning that our own streets will be unsafe unless we take their side ...then threatening financial consequences..etc. Maybe the NEXT day, you will have a couple of pro Israel people on. TOO LATE. Whatever is said FIRST and the MOST OFTEN, true or not, is grafted onto the memory of the listener. And the News Media knows it. The Media knows exactly what they are doing and MEAN to do it.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Itâ€™s incomprehensible and shocking to me that anyone would attend a conference debating whether or whether not killing civilians is OK or not.

That reaches a level of hate thatâ€™s frightening and I suppose that the demons of 9/11 and suicide bombers subscribe to the same philosophy.
To see and know that thereâ€™s support for actions like that is scary. Most world leaders are insensitive to the plight of innocent Israelis whose lives are seriously harmed.

They seem to be more interested in whether Arafat can go potty versus the ongoing terrorist activities. Strange world this is becoming.
I
If itâ€™s all right for Palestinians or other Muslims to target civilians is that going to become a new type of warfare? Part of my philosophy is that whatâ€™s good for the goose is good for the gander. Tit for tat and so on.

I for one would refuse to take an order like that even if it meant the end of my own life. To me it really would be the end because I donâ€™t believe in life after death.

Israel has always been lacking in their PR department today Sharon asked Netanyahu to be the great explainer. Itâ€™s always been my opinion that Israel has done a lousy job of presenting its side to the world. I suppose that could be due in part to whatâ€™s seems obvious to Jews should be obvious to the rest of the world.

Flame

04-01-2002, 04:08 PM

Apparently when other nations are attacked by PLO no one has a problem seeing the mobs as terrorists....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1095000/1095221.stm
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Parliament/2587/black.html

Have all the world leaders forgotten Black September? How has it that halos have suddenly appeared on the heads of these terror groups?

raven

04-01-2002, 04:42 PM

Lamp: Ive been at this issue of Israel and the Media for years. I swear I know it inside and out by this time. Israel wouldnt understand or couldnt understand that they had to learn how to present their side. Heres what they were totally convinced of ...it was unthinkable that anyone would believe the Arab World, looking at their history and behavior all over the world all these years. They thought that most Democracies would come naturally to understand that these people were down and out murderers and liars- and Terrorists. Theyve been caught at it all over the world time and time again.

The next issue was: we, Israel, need the money for Tanks...they are likely to attack us again and since the World will come to their senses and finally understand our side, why waste the needed funds for PR. You COULD NOT impress on them that they had to get their PR act in order. They seem NOT to understand the value of this AT ALL. WHY? I have NO IDEA. No one does. In the end they thought that most decent peoples and countries could NOT but support them. Obviously, they were so wrong.

As for Jewish Reporters ...unlike other ethnic reporters and journalists...they "get the messaage" loud and clear that they better not get caught being biased towards Israel. In fact, they are encouraged to bend over backwards to favor the Pal. side. "Your kid wants to eat? Mr. Reporter, Dont be Pro Israel". "You want your job tomorrow and/or you want to progress in this business?--Be Pro Pal! "This is true. Absolutely.

Left out of all this is the intimidation of Reporters by Palistinian side. Why get murdered, especially if this isnt YOUR PEOPLE or YOUR PROBLEM...plus the honest truth of the fact that you dont particularly like one of the players in this horrible drama.

They talk about this in Honest Reporting...Glad to hear this aspect is out in the open.

With the Media and Government...just start looking for recognizable patterns. Im already seeing the Viet Nam, War Crime/Atrocity Pattern getting started in earnest. This is designed to turn off the American Public...to turn the American Public Opinion against Israel. You see this pattern when the US is doing any type of military operation. Same damn thing This time, it is more of it...more incidents of so called atrocities a day.

I say that Im waiting for a nasty treatment of a "Nanny" story to be brought up right in the middle of this. Anything negative that the American Public is conditioned to react to negatively will be brought up and charged...Almost not kidding here.

raven

04-01-2002, 04:50 PM

Flame: Tell what you heard Lou Dobbs say on that radio program about Israel. Most people dont know the debths of his hatred and dismissal of the very idea of Israel. (I didnt hear it so I cant tell it properly)

Should have seen the Face On Him tonight while that Pal. was presenting the newest War Crime of the Israeli Soldiers. The Transcript will probably be on his Web Site tomorrow.

Flame

04-01-2002, 04:56 PM

I'm glad I don't have cable.... I would be 10 times more upset than I am without it.

I'm almost afraid to look at the transcript.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 05:07 PM

Arafat is one of the greatest manipulators of the media that Iâ€™ve ever seen. He actually shows anger when heâ€™s asked a question that he doesnâ€™t like. Then the reporter cowers down and lets him continue with his tirade of BS.
At times I actually think that the reporter is afraid for his/or her life when confronted by his anger.
I imagine if you cross him it would be your last interview.

The spokespeople from Israel on the other hand seem more hardened. I wouldnâ€™t say they are confrontational but they seem to be more businesslike and donâ€™t seem to elicit international sympathy. They are truthful and explain Israelâ€™s position in a mechanical manner. I donâ€™t see them showing much (unlike Arafat) emotion they talk about the suicide bombings and shooting like they were numbers. Perhaps in that culture itâ€™s taboo for males to show grief.

At this point I believe that women would be better at showing Israelâ€™s side to the world. I think that it would serve Israelâ€™s interests to have female representatives. Iâ€™m not talking about raving and chanting or anything like that just show some good old fashioned emotion, expressing sadness of the unfolding events.

Because it is sad to human life destroyed in senseless acts of terrorism

raven

04-01-2002, 05:42 PM

In light of the past, I think that begging for understanding and showing undue emotion is something Israel just cant and wont do. Somehow, they cling to the idea that they are a Democratic tiny country, being constantly attacked thru the years by people that have values so much different than the West and they seem to still feel that the West will "wake up" put their old hatreds for them aside and come to their aid.

If youve been to Israel you might understand. Here is this weensy country, that has made this incredible progress, mostly by people that dragged their asses out of the horror of Europe and their are justifyably very proud of their sucess. They are small but they are immensly proud of their Democracy and proud that they could do what they did. It is amazing to see that country. Really it is. You really can tell the boarders, just by looking. One side is Green...and it IS the Land of Milk and Honey...the other side, for no real reason at all...is a desolate mess. There is no reason that it has to be a desolate mess.

Pride and self regard and self respect is keeping them from playing to the audience. In fact, I think the idea is: Even IF you dont like us, we are right, we are just like you, and you know it...We are A Democracy, have values just like you and you could live here comfortably as you do in your own country. (for the most part) We ARE EQUALS finally. Equals sharing Values and most Beliefs. Equals dont want to beg other Equals. That might be it. I think it is. The other thing is that Israelis are brutally honest. Dont have time for crapola. Youd know this IF you knew Israelis. Sometimes it is jarring. They get right to the point without alot of baloney. They are good but havent got time for Charm. They could use CHARM SCHOOL...

The final thing is very important.. You are right. Israel should be presenting their women, their most attractive and articulate women, but they dont seem to understand the value of that either. On the other side, you will see that the reporters the Arabs choose are many times very attractive women, dressed and made up, English trained, by PR people-- all trained and polished to the T. They even keep in mind NOT to let them be blonde, but not to let them be a stereotype of an Arab woman either. They pay attention to the price of the clothes that these women wear on the air. Not frumpy, but NOT recognizable designer clothing either. Nothing is left to chance. It is an entire thought out presentation, designed to please the Western Audience. So far Israel is NOT paying the proper attention to the value of pleasing the Western Audience. The West responds to PRETTY and YOUNG. Israel will NOT get it. Or just will not do it. Thats it. Theyve been told over and over again.

ibrodsky

04-01-2002, 05:58 PM

What I have read in the last several posts of this thread doesn't tell me that the Bush administration is confused, it tells me that some of you are confused.

Why would anyone expect the Communist News Network to give Israel a fair shake? (Remember Ted Turner and Jane Fonda?) I think some of you must be vote-straight-Democrat types who just can't divorce yourselves from your fashionably liberal, anti-Israel culture.

If you watched Fox News instead, you would see folks like Brit Hume and Tony Snow presenting a passionately anti-terrorist view that is very supportive of Israel.

I think the Bush administration is one of the most pro-Israel administrations we have had. Yes, there are times when I am unhappy with what they are doing and saying. We do seem to be on a rollercoaster. Today was an up day: Rumsfeld made very strong comments about how Syria, Iran, and Iraq are encouraging and supporting terrorist attacks on Israel. This guy clearly gets it.

Raven, some of your comments tell me you still haven't gotten over the Florida recounts.

The Oslo Peace Process is what brought Israel to this current mess. Now, it's not so easy to fix. Arafat has been installed as a "head of state" by Western leftists and now the US can't go after him until we have airtight, documented evidence that he is still a terrorist. I have no doubt the Bush admin is trying to make this case. (They call on Arafat to "do more" because they have every European leader telling them that Arafat is a rehabilitated statesman; but notice that neither Bush nor Cheney have met with Arafat, and Ben Eliezer opened his big mouth and told everyone what Cheney really thinks about Arafat.)

Sure, the Bush admin is pressured by the State Dept. And pressured by many forces on all sides. But the comment that "little Bush" is not really running the show is infantile.

No President is an absolute dictator; but at least Bush understands some of the basic issues. Like "You have to fight the bad guys." And not every problem can be solved by talk. And terrorists are not just "desperate," they are evil.

(It's time more Jews understood there are just-plain-evil people in the world, and that even the best team of do-good social workers can't rehabilitate scum.)

With the exception of Colin Powell, Pres. Bush has surrounded himself with a top-flight team. Compare them to the bumbling idiots from the last Admin. We were already under attack by Osama bin Laden, but those fools couldn't be bothered. I will remember Madeliene All-dumb as the Secretary of State who went to North Korea and enjoyed watching thousands of automatons put on a show...

raven

04-01-2002, 06:00 PM

Heres something that is THOUSANDS of years old with us. We are the subborn people we always were. WE DONT LISTEN. The Israeli Jews wont listen to American Jews that tell them how to communicate with American Citizens--and even other American Jews.

Only BIBI knows how to do it. (hes about the only one) And the Israeli haters immediately demonized him when they saw that he could cross the divide so easily. (Girl scandles, Nanny scandles etc) It must be frustrating to him when HE tries to make them understand that the TRUE message is not getting thru. Its a matter of style --thats all...and they wont learn it.

People from Timbuctu...send their Media People and Diplomatic People to American Media Advisors. Israel wont...Makes us all crazy.

The Israels actually feel that the world knows it is being manipulated by Arafat and will "wake up".."get sick and tired of it" ...and are shocked when the world laps it up. SHOOT.

ibrodsky

04-01-2002, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by raven

The final thing is very important.. You are right. Israel should be presenting their women, their most attractive and articulate women, but they dont seem to understand the value of that either.

You are trying to convince the wrong people with the wrong tactics. You think you can depict Israel as the victim, and win the favor of people who don't understand the difference between right and wrong. No matter what you do, they will always see the Pals as more victim, because they are willing to blow themselves up.

What Israel should be doing is what (reportedly) Sharon finally did today: ask Netanyahu to serve as a national spokesman.

To wit: Instead of trying to convince the world's leftists to support Israel, which they will never do, we should be doing more to cultivate and energize out real friends. People like Ezra in this forum, people like Jerry Falwell (I know, that may shock some of you), and we should do everything we can to keep Pres. Bush on our side.

Instead of playing the tired old victim card, we should not miss an opportunity to show that Israel's fight against terrorism is the US and Western Civilization's fight. I think Sharon has it pretty much right... just needs better PR.

The Europeans won't wake up until the Islamic terrorism strikes them. Sure, they like Shimon Peres because to them he represents the "good Jews" who know that Israel is a "ty little country."

Instead, Israel should take the moral high ground (which it has) and stop acting unsure or apologetic. Every day the words should be "Israel is fighting terrorism."

Clearer. Louder. And in American English.

raven

04-01-2002, 06:23 PM

ibrodsky: Let me say to you that I am not a Democrat. Im not a Repub. either. Im somewhere in the Middle. Fla. is over. Fini...the end...a long time ago..... Little Bush turns out to be a nicer boy than I thought. I believe that little Bush is naturally attuned to Israel. That is really his own beliefs. But I think that he is being more easily manipulated by the State Dept. (ALWAYS the State Dept.) than other Presidents. This is also complicdated by the pressure put on him by his father...A PRESIDENT...and a person of more accomplished intellect and a strong Pro Pal person.

When was it OK for the father of a sitting President to be on the phone to a country and countering the stated policy of the US? This is what happened a few weeks ago when Pres. Bush, the elder was on the phone in the WH and telling the Saudis that "his boy would do the right thing"...the opposite of what the younger Bushes stated policy at the time was...This is NOT OK..or it didnt used to be.

So what happens is that little Bush announces a policy that he believes in one day, and by the next couple days, he has been bullied, or pushed or persuaded by Pro Pal Advisors and State Dept people into "softening" his stance. This is a signal to the Arab World that he cannot sustain his own beliefs and that we are divided.

The HELL with Fla. It is over. We need to drop that issue. Now we, as Jews, and people who want to see Israel AND the US stay free and strong have to see what is happening with our Govnt officals with some clarity. I dont have time for Party Loyalty. That is incidental now.

What I want to see stated as an American is TERRORISM..is WRONG..PERIOD. Everywhere. From the President, today, tomorrow and the next day. I want to see it from the State Dept. (A strong President would have shut the State Dept up already- A strong President would have had the resisgnation of his Sec. of State that disagrees with him PUBICALLY) and I want to see it reflected in the American UN Votes. ONLY then will the Arab world stop their behavior.

Actually: ALL America ever had to do was say NO...and mean it. Might have had to do it a few times. But if the Arab World thought we meant business, all of this would never have happened. Very cowardly really, that world.

Flame

04-01-2002, 06:31 PM

Raven, I too am surprised in a pleasant way about Bush Jr... and I pray that her heart takes over and gives him the balls to step away from his father and be his own man... I never thought a year ago I would feel sorry for him... he is stuck at home, no allowed to meet with the real boys and is taking orders from dad, cheney and powell. Powell really has to go.

raven

04-01-2002, 06:36 PM

ibrodsky. before this goes too far...I am NOT a leftist. Yes? I am more right of center. Please lets not do the Left and Right thing. Especially when Im not a leftist.

And we agree on many things. Israel should NOT be appologetic. Im a lock and load person. Id have blown their murdering asses to bits a LONG TIME AGO. Israel, as I said before, and as you say also, should be making much use of Bibi. He has the ability to talk to the American Public.

I also feel that Israel should be fighting PR fire with PR fire. If the Arabs can learn to use cosmetics to get their message accross, WE can do the same thing. "anything they can do...we can do better".etc . Their message is ressonating, even IF it is mostly a bunch of bull..Our message is NOT and our message is the one that most Americans and Westerners and believers in Democracy agree with. We have to do better in connecting or the Message will not get thru. Simple as that.

raven

04-01-2002, 06:39 PM

As the days go on...we are both moving more to the right --arent we? I was sort of there ...but am moving even more to the right.

Flame

04-01-2002, 06:43 PM

Two years ago I would have said that was impossible... but events made something snap in me and reality looked so different from before.

NewsGuy

04-01-2002, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky
What Israel should be doing is what (reportedly) Sharon finally did today: ask Netanyahu to serve as a national spokesman.
Yes, this was an important and positive turning point for Sharon, because it shows that he finally realizes that Israel needs a better PR voice than Shimon Peres or Raanan Gissim, neither of whom represents Israel well to an American audience, IMO.

I also agree that the Bush administration is pro-Israel, although the recent series of flip-flops between the unfortunate UN vote and later that same day the Bush ranch press conference, show that there is a disconnect somewhere.

Look at these pathetic statements:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/04/01/bush.mideast/index.html

It also shows that Bush has not yet fully woken up to reality, when he keeps on saying "Arafat needs to do this, Arafat should do that..." Well, someone needs to tell him "Mr. President, wake up! Arafat won't do anything but order more terrorism against Israel and now against the US."

I was pleased to see Tom Friedman's editorial in the NY Times that says basically that.

I was also pleasantly surprised, for a change, to see that Friedman was making the most important point that Israel's war on suicide bombers will determine the fate of the US, as well, so we'd better get fully behind Israel. I hope that Bush gets this message more clearly. This is exactly what Bibi should articulate to the American and European audiences.

Flame

04-01-2002, 06:52 PM

I get the feeling Bush doesn't know a thing about the history of the region and of all the trouble the m.e. countries have created. He needs to educate himself and not listen to powell and other advisors. I think if he knew... he would be so horrified that he might even try to be a real president.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 07:02 PM

If you watched Fox News instead, you would see folks like Brit Hume and Tony Snow presenting a passionately anti-terrorist view that is very supportive of Israel

Fair enough but for every source that you can mention I can mention at least 2 or 3. Granted the US is a super power but the world is a lot bigger than the US. The mighty have fallen before and it can happen again. I hope not!!!!!! Therefore the media should present facts not what feels right or what they feel like. The press is a powerful tool that can shape public opinion and make or break anyone.

If the US had stayed on course a few months ago perhaps the car bombings of today could have been avoided. Even the media is commenting on its erratic course. Stop go, yes no, cold hot what is this a yin yang display of foreign policy? Get your act together and don?t beat around the bush call a spade a spade. Arafat is a terrorist; Arafat is an instigator of terrorism.

Actually I stopped thinking about the Florida recounts sometime after 9/11.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Jews from the Middle East and I sponsored a Jew from Israel some time ago so that he could work on our continent. Jacob was the hardest working individual that I?ve ever met. I bumped into his cousin at my son?s school a couple of months ago and he told me that he lives in NY now.

Israel has become the land of milk and honey in the desert and it?s literally due to Jews that worked their ___ off. I been reading articles in the National Geographic Magazines (on CD?s) lately and they made the desert bloom. In the December 1950 issue there?s a lot of information and pictures showing what steps the
Israelis were taking to transform the desert. Much of the funding came from the US in the form of loans

raven

04-01-2002, 07:07 PM

Newguy: Ive always thought that Israel should make the most extensive use of Bibi. He is a natural...Especially for the American Audience. He isnt saying anything different, it is his style and his choice of words, and the way he presents the subject that fits so with US Citizens. That he is attractive too, is no little thing. People are shallow..they respond positively to attractive people. This has been proven scientifically. (excuse my horrible spelling)

As for Friedman. Hmm. Im not convinced that he isnt playing us in the short run. Thats just my opinion.

Bush? He does see the issues naturally and with his heart. He is Pro Israel himself. What he has to do, is BE the President. This isnt an old Dem. talking here. This is an American first talking and a Jew talking. Ive never seen open differences of policy between a Sec. olf State and a Pres. without the Sec. of State either shutting the hell up...or resigning. We have to speak with one voice. We have to say the same thing today, tomorrow and next month OR the Arabs and Europe and the rest of the World will not take us seriously.

raven

04-01-2002, 07:12 PM

Lamp: I wish I had Fox..I only get CNN and like you say, their view is reflected more than Fox. For every Fox there IS 3 or 4 important Media outlets that are slamming Israel every minute of every day. Its scarey.

So you did meet an Israeli. My experience is that they dont mince words. Dont have time or the heart for it. They are "Pistols" for sure. I am so proud of them and for them.

Boy-- you should see that little place. It is amazing.

L@mplighterM

04-01-2002, 07:13 PM

I read an article on MSNBC yesterday where Bush met with Sharon in 1998 and they clicked. They seem to be friends, of course I don?t know what is happening behind the scene at the moment If the Whitehouse tapes are released 30 years from now it?ll be interesting to read how Bush viewed Arafat or Sharon for that matter.

raven

04-02-2002, 08:43 AM

Absolutely right Lamp. Americans sell their Political Candidates using the same "cues"(attractiveness, colors, shapes etc) that they use to sell toothpaste. It is a science already. Whole body of knowledge, complete with Psychological Research Data and constant use of Focus Groups.

Palistinians have used these same PR tactics for 20 years in addition to targeting and wooing people that they KNOW dislike Jews. Thats a dirty little secret that we know but are reluctant to talk about, outloud that is. Recently, they have been comming out the closet and injecting the we (Islam and Christianity) vs. them (Jews who killed your Lord). Hanan Ashwahi did just that on CNN last year and after her outburst, up until recently, she has been not on CNN. (people must have written in protest to her no so thinly veiled antisemetism)

If you and I can make up a commercial for Israel...so can they. Why they resist doing this, is anyones guess. Again, I think it is Pride.

So far the Palistinian people, and the Arab World in general, have been able to, with adroit PR, take OFF the Table, discussion of their own everyday society. Americans are not able to examine the societies of these countries to see if they WANT to support them. If the reality of so many, not all, of those societies were presented, as they are, to our Citizens, aid and support would stop immediately. Their PR has worked to present these countries in an entirely false way.

So...the Palistinians are able to use the entire PR and Advertizing Body of knowledge to present a false picture and Israel isnt even attempting to present their TRUE picture to the American People. No wonder, this ONE single "movement" is front and center for the world...It is the "movement" that has used a full court PR press. The Basque movement isnt one that we support, nor the Tamils, nor the Whatevers, in Mexico...Just the Pal Movement.

They just WONT...present themselves to the American people...and tho we have been trying to explain to Israel that they must...we get absolutely nowhere. We have been trying to get thru to them since the 80's. They understand the real world in every other aspect but THIS aspect. A blind spot...or something......

raven

04-02-2002, 08:56 AM

As for Perez. This is a man after all. One that either has his own ideas which he believes are correct..OR someone has him "in their pocket" and therefore telling him when and what to say...or he is just a stupid bastard. People are people...Forgot to add, this is a Politition. They are the same everywhere.

I will tell you this...the US is about to clamp down. Israel is getting close to some CIA Palistinain " assets". IF they get ahold of those people--something might come to light that wouldnt be so "acceptable" to the average American Citizen. Watch and see if there isnt all sorts of "reasons" why Israel has to stop pretty soon. Just hearing the beginning of this. There will be...an Israeli outrage that America will be forced to condemn, or the ever popular Oil Embargo, or some reason...why what Israel is doing must stop.

Incidently, meanwhile America is seeking and arresting the people that were involved in 9/11. No one is stopping THAT. Nor should they. Only Israel is not allowed to go after and arrest murderers and Terrorists. (you know Israel has proof that Arafat was directly involved with several murdurous incidents, including American Dipolmats and Leon Klinghoeffer) They need to ARREST this man for plain old MURDER. America is stopping this.

raven

04-02-2002, 09:37 AM

Id be saying this no matter which party or which President was in power. Time for the Good Cop (President) Bad Cop (State Dept.) to STOP. Terrorism is Terrorism..or is it OK to PARSE that word depending on who the victims are.

Forget about what the meaning of "is" is. I want to know the meaning of "Terrorism" is.

raven

04-02-2002, 10:02 AM

I didnt get a message. What is going on?

Flame

04-02-2002, 10:05 AM

I emailed you something I rather not post.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 10:28 AM

I think Peres is the latter.

This morning I read that the US wants Sharon to pull out of Ramallah (just checked again and article is gone) and they will not declare the PLO a terrorist organization. The captured terrorist in Pakistan was Bin Ladens 3rd in command and a Palestinian.

Thereâ€™s a whole network of terrorists and they are connected to Arafat himself. As far as I know the US was never given an explanation of the 50 Tons of weapons. Everyone should know by now that the man is a terrorist and a liar.

And oil is rising by the minute and someone out there is making millions if not billions of dollars on oil futures.

I hear what Bush is have/said about stamping out terrorism in the world and quite frankly at this point I no longer believe him.

A revised version of his position on terrorism might go something like this:

I will stamp out terrorism where my advisers tell me it wonâ€™t hurt interest too much. I will stamp out terrorism unless my daddy tells me that itâ€™ll cost him too much money.

There may be some that see the Bush administration engaged in a wholehearted effort to stamp out terrorism but Iâ€™m not one of them.

The saddest part of it all is that innocent individuals will continue to be victims of some evil political game. Sometimes what goes around comes around and it might. The terrorists in the Palestine would have no problem targeting Americans and they would do so if it werenâ€™t for the distance.

9/11 should have been a call to the world to stamp out Islamic Fundamentalism anyone that believes that it has disappeared with the fall of the Taliban and friends in Afghanistan is just fooling himself or herself.

I donâ€™t know whoâ€™s going to save the world from those evil bastards but I donâ€™t believe that itâ€™s going to be Bush and his administration.

raven

04-02-2002, 12:59 PM

Frankly Lamp: I was hoping I was wrong...but I have to agree with you about Bush. PERSONALLY...this mans heart seems to be with Israel and against Terrorisism...but he is not in charge of the stiutation and that is all there is to it. Im concluding we have some sort of a shadowy COMMITTEE type Presidency right now. WHO? Have no idea. That is NOT what our Democracy is supposed to produce. Who the hell is the President right this minute? Chaney? Rumsfeld? the Dad? State Dept/CIA big wigs? Who makes the final decision? Not little Bush, it seems. We are supposed to KNOW who makes the final decision and how he arrives at it. If there is a Committee type Presidency, we at least should know, as Democratic Peoples, who the hell they are. Or are there two factions? and who are THEY? This is rediculous. One day yes...one day no.. Good Cop/Bad Cop.. Especially with the Islamic World- this is no way to run a Foreign Policy.

I watched while we just absolutely couldnt...find Osama and the other guy.( forgot his name already) I watched while most of the extremists got away. I conclude that we decided we didnt dare anger the Arab/Islamic World by capturing and holding Bin Laudin. They next floated..that "Osama isnt important..crap"..That didnt go down too well and now we are back to "We are going to EVENTUALLy get him". They will get him when they can say he is Dead...Couse we will never know if that is true.

9/11, it seems, was NOT enough. In my opinion, we already lost WW3. The most we are doing is threatening to invade Somalia? was it? Not Iraq, not Iran, not the people that we have to worry aboutl. The whole thing rings bogus to me and has a ring of fear of the Islamic World to me. This is NOT GOOD. This is an invitation, gold rimmed, for Islam to continue its expansionist reassurgance.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 03:03 PM

I?m certain that I could write a negative article about any country in the world. There?s such a thing as lying by omission (telling the half truth). There are always two sides to a coin (at least the ones that I?ve seen).
Presenting one side of the story on a site isn?t fair but it falls within freedom of speech. There will be those that believe and on the other side people like me. I?m certain that if the people responsible for suicide bombings, shootings and 9/11 were apprehended before the fact and incarcerated they would be writing similar stories.
Personally at this point I would close the borders to anyone of Arab decent. Does that make me a racist? Some would call me that but I see it as being a preservationist. At this stage of the world and reflecting back on history I believe that every Muslim has the possibility of becoming an Islamic Fundamentalist and people like that are dangerous.
I didn?t start Islam and write the Koran.

NewsGuy

04-02-2002, 03:04 PM

Note: I split the posts about the anti-Israel broadcaster into its own thread, titled Anti-Israel media (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=397)

If you're wondering where your posts went, they're probably in that thread.

zeronine

04-02-2002, 04:17 PM

I would close the borders to anyone of Arab decent. Does that make me a racist?

In one word...yes!

It is not "preservationist", just like segregation is not "preservationist", or rounding up groups of a certain religion is not "protectionist". No mather how you put it, it is flat out hatred.

By the way, i have also read some of your previous posts and i get the imression that you also seem to be homophobic and racist as well.

"every Muslim has the possibility of becoming an Islamic Fundamentalist and people like that are dangerous."

I'm not mulsim/palestinian/arabic or jewish/israeli, but to me, the above statement seems like hate mongering. I would imagine that nazis used these types of arguements to rationalize thier treatment of jews/gypsies/poles etc etc.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 04:44 PM

How about in two words?

I suppose it hasn?t been bad enough in the US yet or in any other nation. I think that it?s bad enough in Israel to warrant closing the borders to anyone that?s Arabic and/or Muslim. Islam has to go a long way to convince me that it?s a peaceful religion.

If you have a beef about me being homophobic take it up with a National Geographic special I watched a few months ago. In it was a brave warrior that didn?t fear dying because there were a lot of young boys in heaven. Further you should do a bit of reading about Islam and their perverse practices. Don?t shoot the messenger perhaps you approve of children being abused I DON?T.

If you think that Islamic Fundamentalism isn?t dangerous so be it. I don?t know how Hitler crept into this subject? Perhaps you can point me to history books that would leave me with facts indicating that the Jewish population engaged in despicable terrorist acts against the German population?

Flame

04-02-2002, 05:22 PM

Lamp... its jpd again... he loves to stir up trouble. Obviously he didn't read the article about the meeting of islamic clerics trying to define what a terrorist is.... as they see pals as freedom fighters and the US and Israel as engaging in terror.... jpd also doesn't like to face the reality that most of the arab world is ONE entity... a group mind, a collective mass of incited people... nothing in histroy has ever happened like this... which is why everyone is confused how to deal with it... it is the old devil in a brand new persona... first time in history billions are united as one mind. He doesn't see it as anything to worry about... fine... we are... if he doesn't like our views... he should go somewhere else. But he is addicted to harrassing Jews where ever they gather.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 05:39 PM

I suppose there's many ways to look at the world. It would ideal if it was a live and let live planet. Back in the 1960's it was communism now it's Islamic Fundamentalists and I don't think they'll disapear anytime soon.

Flame

04-02-2002, 05:56 PM

ANd I hate to say this but this problem is the US frankenstein child... the US for who knows what reason... had the CIA train all these groups... including the pal big wigs... which might be a reason the US keeps telling Isreal to back down... there might be CIA links in the papers they find.

The links I found on Black September had all this information. Smart government. What were they thinking? I remember a documentary from a few years ago that the CIA allowed the islamic/(pals too ) groups live in the backwoods in a small Indiana town... to train. Footage and everything... 60 mins aired it... never saw it again and at the time people thought it would never be our problem and there was no protests about it... even though out tax dollars paid for this in our own nation.

A few years ago the so-called wackos called talk shows about how the UN was taking over for a global government.... looks like they were right and I just see a very bleek future ahead..... the new world order alredy begun. Nothing anyone can do about it either.

Anti-Intifada

04-02-2002, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Flame
its jpd again... he loves to stir up trouble.
.... jpd also doesn't like to face the reality
... it is the old devil in a brand new persona... ... if he doesn't like our views... he should go somewhere else. But he is addicted to harrassing Jews where ever they gather.

If this edaly or zero-zero or zero-my-hero or zero-the-shape-of-my-butthole is the same person the moderators will find out in just a few posts like I've seen them do before and they'll take care of it. This is a close knit forum and we're here for QUALITY not ravings and paranoia about nazi conspiracies and antisemitic boogiemen. Right now even zero-reality's sounding more coherent than you. We don't like posing with different personas here and if he's doing it he's not some evil devil boy, he's just a loser that will be booted from the best Israel forum on the free Web and banished to the trashola of VoterVoices and Yahoo and the religious regime of VJ. There he will live the hell of being shouted at by the SAME OLD SAME OLD SAME OLD tired Voter Voice muppets. Like living in a permanent Groundhog's day movie.

You're a smart person that knows to avoid the hysterics and stay on topic. WE WANT QUALITY. You have good knowledge so use it please.

Signed

The faithful lurkers

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 07:00 PM

I believe that the divide between civilization as it stands right now and anarchy is narrowing. Admittedly I knew what was happening in Israel but that was far away in another world. I was angered by the actions of the Palestinians and their cowardly leader Arafat. If it had left up to me I would have engaged in a total war ending in much bloodshed. I love peace and would stop at nothing to achieve it.

9/11 was a rude awakening for me and I suspect that Iâ€™m not the only one that shares that feeling. The anthrax, smallpox and other biological substances became another worry. Knowing that at the snap of a finger can alter the course of all humanity is a frightening thought.

I never considered Bush an elected president until the days following 9/11. When he made his speech promising to root out terrorism, the harbors and supporters of evil he had my full support. Now however he seems to be selective in his quest. Seemingly Arafatâ€™s ties to Iraq and Iran are moot. All I hear is that Arafat has to do more and the clear message coming from Arafat is screw you.

How much power does a President have against a two-bit old senile Arab? Not much it seems.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 07:08 PM

Well you know everyone contributes to a forum. I'm certainly not bothered by Flame. Sometimes it's difficult to stay on topic but so what? Where's the harm? Actually I enjoy Flames posts and Ravens as well as many of the others. There's no need to insult anyone is there? I think most posters here have the same goal.

L@mplighterM

04-02-2002, 07:12 PM

Further I think you should apologize majorly.

cerulean

04-02-2002, 07:24 PM

Getting back to the left-right-wing dichotomy:

I don't want to give up on the classical liberal ideas of equality and human rights. Who can one attribute such innovations as equal rights for women and minorities, safer and better regulated workplaces, the 8-hour day, the minimum wage, etc. if not to liberals? That's one reason I'm hesitant to embrace the right-wing. However, it's true that it's most important to survive the current dangers at the moment. But even in that respect I'm not sure the right-wing is the best bet.

(And I still have grave concerns about the implications of the Florida recounts and particularly the Supreme Court decision. But I'm trying to move on also.)

Somewhat related, I would be interested in seeing a thread about Israel's economy and its mixed economy aspects, e.g. socialism and the free market. I suspect NewsGuy would have a good handle on this.

Flame

04-02-2002, 07:36 PM

Excuse me Anti... do as Negav tells me?????? And I am obligated to obey a total stranger because? And this is your business becasue???? And you find it acceptable to personally attack people who are not speaking to you because? How old are you? Are you aware of jpd's 2 year campaign of going after me and Raven in particular???? Which he has'n't done here yet... but I for one came here to get away from him and here he comes sliming over.

Identify yourself please... by your vj or what ever name.

Thank you Lamp, you're a decent fellow.

Anti-Intifada

04-02-2002, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Flame
Excuse me Anti... do as Negav tells me?????? And I am obligated to obey a total stranger because?

Because he is RIGHT and you know it.

raven

04-03-2002, 07:04 AM

Anti_ if you dont care for the quality of someones posts just skip over them. No one is forcing you to read and or repond to anyones posts.

You should be free to respond how you want to the situation and so should Flame and so should I. Its called Freedom of Speech, America 101..

It is creepy that we cant go anywhere without this man following us around. It is OK to identify him so that this board doesnt go thru a month of his usual nonsense. He is Pro Pal but likes to play games with Jews for a month or so pretending that the issue is new to him, he doesnt understand it,and we should inform him. Laughing all the way, he plays this game until he gets tired of it and then he comes out of the closet.

He has his right to have his own ideas on the subject but not to make fools of Jews and others that are trying to have serious conversations.

Anti- you seem familiar to me also.

raven

04-03-2002, 07:16 AM

Ceruleun: I too started out on the Left..of middle. Womens rights, civil rights, sensible Environmental Policies etc. All those good ideas. But my party has moved way farther to the Left than I could go. In effect, my party has left ME.

Im in the Middle leaning more right now. I understand that fully 1/3rd of Americans identify themselves as Independant now. Guess that is what you can call me. I suspect they are like me, using their brain to agree with issues and policies of both sides and rejecting the policies on both sides that they feel are too extreme or just not right.

My experience has been that people are angry at you if you dont accept the full "program" of either party. I cant anymore. Politics is life...and it is not like Color Wars at Camp--ie. Pick a side...and stay with that side no matter what.

Heres a thought on the Fla. elections beyond who won or who didnt. I am worried about the passivity of the American Public. Once the day was over, the American public didnt seem to care at all if the person who was truly elected President actually became President. It was wierd. Operatives in Politics noticed that...what is going to happen in the next election will be interesting. Will EACH side, think they can fool around, in various ways, and expect that the voters will hardly care? If they think that? well..not going to good for free, fair, and honest elections.

IM TALKING ABOUT BOTH PARTIES and their operatives.

raven

04-03-2002, 07:29 AM

Lamp: Thanks for the kind words.
Now to the predictable behavior of the world of Islam. We have been warning America for years now that if there wasnt clarity on right and wrong from the Democratic Western Societies, that the Islamic World would translate that into weakness and sooner or later they would decide that all of our countries were afraid of them and weak. This would be an engraved invitation to extend their power and go on the move for land once again. No one would listen to us, as they thought we had an adjenda. We DID have an adjenda. Peace and Freedom and Liberty and all that goes with these ideas that we all hold so dear.

What you will see as the Western Countries STILL, after 9/11, pussy foot around the issues...will be more of the same from Islam.

All you have to do, is look at India, and Eastern Europe. More of the same in Africa. These people are ON THE MOVE. On the move with values that we dont agree with at all. Sorry, but thats the truth of the matter.

This is a no brainer for me...I cant understand why it is not for so many others. OR...we really ARE too terrified of that world to say NO to their behavior.

L@mplighterM

04-03-2002, 08:49 AM

I agree with you 100% it?s like you gleaned it from my mind. It disturbs me that there seems to be so many Chamberlains in the world today. Islam is spreading into the world at an alarming rate. Ironically many Muslims enter the west as refuges fleeing Islam yet embracing it and taking with it evil teachings. Many mosques in the US and elsewhere in the world are purveyors of hate and spread it to their followers all using free speech to their full advantage.

If the next generation of Muslims would all become westernized in their minds it there would not be the danger that the world is facing now. The young and the unborn are the revolutionaries of tomorrow. Post 9/11 we all witnessed celebrations around the world by young Muslims cheering at the destruction and death that was caused in America by their comrades.

Of course Israelis have been subjected to Islam?s and it?s Fundamentalists behavior for too long and we have seen the celebrations by the Palestinians (and others) whenever a suicide bomber or a shooter kills Jews.

In today?s society you?re branded a racist if you even mention the faults of Islam. If a nation closes its doors to Islamic Fundamentalism it?s classified as being a fascist regime.

I think it would be fair to say that the main players Bush and Blair were fully aware of what was happening in the world pre 9/11 and did nothing. Most of the EU was/is a lost cause partly because of fear and politics after all a vote is a vote.

Oil is also a factor(I?m still thinking about this one) but I don?t think it?s as important as people believe it is. There?s a symbiotic relationship between the oil producing countries and the people that use it if they don?t sell the oil they wont have a cash flow.

They sell and we buy

raven

04-03-2002, 09:33 AM

Lamp: Heres what I have noted in our area of the Country. We have a large influx of peoples from Islam. Some are escaping the social and economic repression of their own Home countries. Some, however, are comming to America for OTHER reasons entirely. They are comming merely to lobby for their own home cultures. You can see a family of 20 children and these children are essentially SENT to various Western Countries to establish businesses, friends, and contacts. These people dont have now or dont intend to have any real alliagence to the Western Country that they have setteled in. Many dont live in the "new" countries for much of the year. Kind of a Citizenship "game".

Soon as they arrive, (around here anyway) they immediately place their children into separate Islamic Schools, some complete with Islamic Dress, culture, and values. The only attempt of assimilation into our country is for Business and PR reasons. You can hear them as Taxi Drivers, in everyday Business situations, on Radio Talk as DESPISING America and the West. They live here, may even accept citizenship but HATE America and say so outloud. And they will have programed the next generaation, their children, to think not all differently because of the pention for using separatist education. This is not good for America. Huge amount of people, supposedly citizens that hate what we stand for, but USE our Free Life here for their own purposes.

They USE our Freedom of Speech as an entre to introduce old time Hate Speech. They use Freedom of Movement as a way to set up all sorts of cover Terrorist Organizations. (getting closed down now as we speak) They use Freedom of Movement to run around the US buying materials for destruction. They use Freedom of Religion to cover their own Hate Instruction. THATS how these people see our Freedoms. I dont think most of us have this in mind when we think of the benefits of Freedom and Liberty. I dont the former immigrants thought of Freedom and Liberty in this way either.

Denesh DSousa has a book out that discusses the differences between types of immigrants to the US. He is from India or Pakistan...I believe. He and his family emigrated to the US and he and his family chose the same type of path that the Irish, Jewish, Italian, Chineese, Japanese, Indian, etc. etc. chose. ie. Keep as much of your old culture as you want but embrace the main American Culture with love and relish. Assismilate your tush off.

This is NOT what we are seeing with too many Islamic immigrants. Thats the truth of the situation. Its gonna be a problem down the line.