Looks Like Arafat’s Days are Numbered

[SteveMetch]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/339400.html

It is too bad it took so many dead to bring about this Egyptians death. May he burn in hell.

I think they should follow-up their attack with a threat that if any more terrorism occurs 10+ deaths all Muslim structures will be removed from the Temple Mount. Maybe this will get them to take Israel serious.

[SteveMetch]

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon convened his security
cabinet Thursday evening, to discuss Israel's
response to Tuesday's terror attacks in Tzrifin
and Jerusalem that claimed the lives of 15 people.

Sharon held previous
consultations with the heads of
the defense establishment upon
his return Thursday morning
from an official visit to
India, which was cut short
following the attacks.

A senior cabinet official said
ahead of Thursday's meeting

that Israel would for the time being continue
to act in accordance with the cabinet decision
on August 18 to target the Hamas leadership,
making no distinction between the political and
military wings. Thursday's meeting is likely to
end with new decisions being made.

According to the official, the cabinet would
discuss Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser
Arafat's role in the recent violence, as he is
viewed as "the one mainly responsible for the
current situation."

This, the official said, was in addition to his
responsibility for many years of "bloodshed and
other acts of cruelty."

The official added that some of the ministers
are expected to demand the expulsion of the PA
chairman.

The ministers were also expected to weigh other
possible responses to Tuesday's twin bombings.
One proposal is to tighten Arafat's isolation
at his West Bank headquarters by keeping out
visitors and cutting off phones, and another
idea is to reoccupy the Gaza Strip, where the
Hamas leadership is based.

The United States continues to oppose expulsion
of the PA chairman, Israeli officials said, and
it is unclear whether Sharon would override his
cabinet and block Arafat's ouster, despite
growing public pressure in Israel for drastic
action.

Eight of the 11 members of the security cabinet
are in favor of expulsion and two are opposed,
Israel Television said. Sharon has not made his
view public.

Labor Party Chairman Shimon Peres also expressed
his opposition Thursday such a move, Army Radio
said. Speaking during a meeting with Secretary
of State Colin Powell in Washington on Thursday
that Israel must not force the Palestinian
leader from the territories.

Arafat himself vowed Thursday to stay put,
despite the IDF commandeering a building
overlooking his compound in the West Bank city
of Ramallah earlier in the day as a "message"
to the PA and Arafat.

"No one can kick me out," Arafat said. Asked if
he would leave of his own accord, he said,
"definitely not."

"This is my homeland. This is Terra Sancta. No
one can kick me
out," he told reporters in Ramallah. "They can
kill me. They have bombs," he said.

Arafat called on the quartet of the United
States, Russia, Europe and the United Nations
to "move quickly to protect peace and the road
map" peace plan.

Sources within the prime minister's entourage to
India said Wednesday that Israel's response to
the attacks would be a severe one, which could
come as early as the weekend. Ahead of his
departure from India, Sharon said that Israel
"will do what needs to be done, we will take
every effort to put an end to terror."

[takeo]

do you really think this will make an end to terror? arafat is among those advocating a peaceful solution and an end to the suicide-bombings. Killing him (because expultion just won't happen without a massive slaughter) means another great support for hamas and jihad and another uppercult for both Israeli and palestinians wanting peace and an end to the violence (the only thing this israeli government is really good at, escalating the conflict, since bringing peace is not one of their best qualities, nor desire...) . Already the palestinian dove korei announced he wouldn't form a new government, because of this israeli threat would make his work and peace impossible. And of course israel will loose its last friends, and more in particular the us, while further encouraging the worldwide hate ine the muslims-world against israel. likely enough egypt and jordan will impose economic sanctions and possibly Europe as well, while of course this great gift to hamas will led them to recruit several 1000's more of sympathisers and candidates. Israel cut off all ties to moderate palestinians and now fully buried the peace-proces, which means only war is the alternative for the coming years, Israel decalred war against the entire palestinian people, and in fact against the entire world.
Of course the war can't be won, since it can't destroy the armed resistance without destroying the palestinian people themselves. It's a lost case, and will have extremely negative consequences for the israeli economy and security. I expect that suicide-bombing will increase dramatically and Israel will be totally isolated internationally.
The only solution now is new israeli elections, once the israeli become aware of the destructive path their fascist government is leading them.

[alexbmn]

communists who quote anti semites should not be allowed to post.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
do you really think this will make an end to terror? arafat is among those advocating a peaceful solution and an end to the suicide-bombings.

*LOL*

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
do you really think this will make an end to terror? arafat is among those advocating a peaceful solution and an end to the suicide-bombings.

I'm still laughing!

[David_in_NYC]

Arafat has a decades-long trail of death and destruction behind him! How could anyone in their right mind possibly believe Arafat would seriously pursue peace? He deserves to be hunted down and killed like the terrorist he is.

[nuttie]

arafat is among those advocating a peaceful solution and an end to the suicide-bombings.Sorry, I could not resist re-quoting this joke. Of course, he is a Nobel Peace loreate, a Rightous of the Gentiles, a Mahatma Ghandi, and perhaps also Mother Theresa. What am I saying, all these are sinners by comparison to Saint Yasir.

Now, seriously. Did you know that he is not even a Palestinian? See Daniel Pipes on www.danielpipes.org/article/317

[Mil]

Posted by Takeo:


do you really think this will make an end to terror?


No it will not. But it will broaden the Palestinian political prospective and that's the idea.


arafat is among those advocating a peaceful solution and an end to the suicide-bombings.


This is not the point. After all the slogans Arafat is a political leader and acts as such. Arafat loves intrigue - that's the way he survives by balancing between the extremists, the West, Israel, and other Arab regimes. Sometimes there is some blood-letting by an occassional suicide bomb, sometimes he speaks out, sometimes he goes into direct contact, sometimes he retreats, sometimes he condemns.... Arafat prefers the status-quo of the situation, but the status-quo is not of what is politically needed at the moment to keep the diplomatic and the peace process going as such. The idea is to introduce someone completely new - someone other than Arafat. And I bet the Palestinians are yearning for Arafat to go as as well. It's not that Arafat cannot or does not want to negotiate with Hamas or IJ or other Palestinian factions; it's just he has nothing to offer to them. All of these organizations and Arafat have been with each other for over a decade where each side knows each other's position by heart and are not willing to budge. What is needed is someone completely new or may be not new but definetly not Arafat. This is normal politics - politics as they exist everywhere else in the world. Why do you think leaders in the Democratic world are elected for a limited amount of time and their is a limit to their overall rule - because after awhile their positions become old. Arafat's positions are old and he needs to give up power wheather he wants it or not.


Killing him (because expultion just won't happen without a massive slaughter) means another great support for hamas and jihad and another uppercult for both Israeli and palestinians wanting peace and an end to the violence (the only thing this israeli government is really good at, escalating the conflict, since bringing peace is not one of their best qualities, nor desire...) .


Blah, blah, blah....


Already the palestinian dove korei announced he wouldn't form a new government, because of this israeli threat would make his work and peace impossible.


What Querie is really afraid of is to be in the middle of the Palestinian power-struggle or rather a punching bag of the situation from all the sides; including his own. I agree Israelis don't make the job of a Palestinian PM any easier yet to promote any kind of a diplomacy as such one needs to have a firm domestic base of operation; in this case the Palestinian Authority. And the latter is where Arafat comes into play. The way the Palestinians always make it sound like is that they are doing the world a favor by helping themselves. This approach does not work.


And of course israel will loose its last friends, and more in particular the us, while further encouraging the worldwide hate ine the muslims-world against israel.


Israel is already hated enough in the Arab world even though most of the Arab world has nothing to do with Israel. As far as loosing friends - Israel has enough.


likely enough egypt and jordan will impose economic sanctions and possibly Europe as well,


Trade with Egypt stands at 70 million, trade with Jordan at around 30, and if Europe imposes sanctions on Israel.... that would never happen.


while of course this great gift to hamas will led them to recruit several 1000's more of sympathisers and candidates.


Hamas can recruit the thousands already including your own European citizens... Some suicide-bombers had European passports. This is not a moral question the the Muslims but rather a purely political question to the Israelis.



Israel cut off all ties to moderate palestinians


The word "Moderate" is not the magic bullet as the media makes it out to be. Governmental policies of any nation or regimes for this matter are initiated and are performed by the ruling Government and if those "Moderate" Palestinians are not part of thist government it is not worth much to the Israelis. How do you consider Arafat? A "Moderate?"


and now fully buried the peace-proces,


The peace process was barried from the start beginning with the internal Palestinian power struggle.


which means only war is the alternative for the coming years,


It's been a war with the entire Arab world for the past 55 years for Israel. What else is new?


Israel decalred war against the entire palestinian people, and in fact against the entire world.


I guess in Georgia you drank too much Barzhomi. Against the entire world..... funny boy. How did Israel declare a war against - lets say Japan or lets say Papua New Guinea.


Of course the war can't be won, since it can't destroy the armed resistance without destroying the palestinian people themselves.


It can be won by Diplomacy and by the governments that represent the will of the people. When was the last time Palestinians voted for a new leader? May be Pals don't want Arafat anymore.


It's a lost case, and will have extremely negative consequences for the israeli economy and security.


There were times worse.


I expect that suicide-bombing will increase dramatically and Israel will be totally isolated internationally.


You expect too much. Nobody will isolate Israel internationally. Israel is a Democracy and not a regime governed by the likes of Qaddafi.


The only solution now is new israeli elections,


Whenever time for the election comes people will make their choice - just like they do it in the rest of the Democratic world and in France. May be the people will choose Sharon again; it is their right.


once the israeli become aware of the destructive path their fascist government is leading them.


Fascist? Fascism is an economic system - a variation of social-capitalism. Israel does not have the latter model. But I guess you wanted to call Israeli government a NAZI government so please elaborate.... Especially how did the Government of Adolf Hitler and its policies equates to that under Arieal Sharon. Please don't be shy elaborate to the local audience the political systems, legal systems, social and economic environment, and all the rest as it applies to the two regimes.... Unless you going to show me 100% correlations I would consider you just another over-emotional slogan-maker.

[Northlander]

Nice, so censorship has risen its ugly head at israelforum. Deleting posts that are anti-israeli. I guess Yehudi was right in that his post were deleted without explanation as well.

How come its ok to post that Arafat should be murdered and that he is a terrorist when he has not been trailed for his crimes, when its not ok to post he fights for freedom for what he believes in?

An explanaition would be in place.

[Mil]

Nice, so censorship has risen its ugly head at israelforum. Deleting posts that are anti-israeli. I guess Yehudi was right in that his post were deleted without explanation as well.

How come its ok to post that Arafat should be murdered and that he is a terrorist when he has not been trailed for his crimes, when its not ok to post he fights for freedom for what he believes in?

An explanaition would be in place.


I agree. This is a discussion forum and not a shooting contest. We are all educated people their - even though some of us are uneducated Americans :) - thus any opinion should be accepted no matter how offensive as long as it is within the guidelines of the forum rules.

[danholo]

even though some of us are uneducated Americans :)

This includes me! ;)

[danholo]

If the "world" sides with Arafat, I'll know where they stand - terrorism.

WW3 will start any moment now on full scale - it started already two years ago - I will fight on Israel's side till the end!

I really hope things calm down cause the future isn't looking good. And I'm still so young!! I'm actually a little scared.

[David_in_NYC]

World War III is over... the Soviet Union is no more. This is World War IV.

But don't be scared. What we face now is no worse than the threat of virtually instant nuclear annihilation we lived under for half a century.

As long as we are not swayed by those who foolishly propose we make peace with men who want nothing of the sort, this is a war we can and will win decisively.

[minusthejihad]

I was actually starting a book last night, and my first line was...

"In a world where Arafat is a hero......"

Yep, it was going to be some sort of Sci-fi book, but then I realized, "Oh SH!T, WE'RE IN TROUBLE!"

How can I possibly raise children in a world like this?

So, I figured out what I will do:

- Have as many children as possible
- Educate, Educate, Educate
- Teach them Krav Maga, Jew-Jitsu, guns, etc.
- Work like a dog to make America and Israel stronger
- Go into politics
- Create a news empire
- Fight until my last day, making sure that the Arab World suffers endlessly (and France as well)

Don't worry people, we'll be alright!

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by Northlander
Nice, so censorship has risen its ugly head at israelforum. Deleting posts that are anti-israeli. I guess Yehudi was right in that his post were deleted without explanation as well.

How come its ok to post that Arafat should be murdered and that he is a terrorist when he has not been trailed for his crimes, when its not ok to post he fights for freedom for what he believes in?

An explanaition would be in place.

The explanation is that you are a liar.

Takeo has made roughly 2,800 anti-Israel posts.

You are accusing IsraelForum of censorship because a participant suggested another participant should be banned.

[SteveMetch]

I look at what the action of the US and Israel as just the first tentative moves in a larger War. If either the US and or Israel actually starts to fight a real War on our terms watch out. The reason this War hasn’t started in earnest is because our enemies our so pathetic. It’s like an ant declaring war on an elephant. The elephant looks at the ant biting him and wonders why is he biting me.

[danholo]

Ah. Give them some credit. Like a firefly or something.

[Alfred]

Come on people, this Arafat exile is a joke.

Look at the Israeli government and press leaks. "this doesn't necessarily mean Arafat is going to be exiled"

Gimme a break. These are the same coward politicians who refuse to fight back. The latest I am hearing is that they are waiting to see if "America will approve."

The Pals say they are going to tear up the world if Arafat is exiled....so you might as well kill him. But no politician in Israel has enough cajones to do the deed. By pre-announcing it they are bringing down the wrath of the whole world. Which will result in they won't do it. Cowards. I hope I am 100% wrong on this.

I sure miss the old Israel, the one I became a fan of in 1967.

Perhaps it IS time for a new election in Israel.

[takeo]

communists who quote anti semites should not be allowed to post.

where did i quote anti-semites? are you in favor of censorship, mr. democrat?

I'm still laughing!

once i used to be shocked by your posts, now I just laugh as well, what is he going to write this time, that arabs are the reason of the climate change?


Arafat has a decades-long trail of death and destruction behind him! How could anyone in their right mind possibly believe Arafat would seriously pursue peace? He deserves to be hunted down and killed like the terrorist he is.

give me a break please, when and how has Arafat been linked to terrorism since the oslo-agreements? even the accusations that al-aqsa were commanded by Arafat prooved to be false. each and every speech he made called on the palestinians to accept a two-state-solution with Israel and he condamned every suicide-attack against civilians. but perhaps his greatest crime is that he wasn't ready to be Israel's puppet and govern a protectorate country with parts of gaza and westbank completely controlled by israel.
the only thing one can hold against him is that he didn't do enough to outroot the terrorists, but israel wasn't making it easy either, refusing to take any steps and destroying the facilities of the pa. but this latesy decision will furely not encourage the palestinians to fight the terrorists, quite on the contrary.


No it will not. But it will broaden the Palestinian political prospective and that's the idea.

bullocks... there was a temptative to give less autority to Arafat during the latest months, and a new prime minister was to be installed, yet by this move Israel alienated all palestinians. israeli interfearance in internal palestinian politics will only make the radical forces stronger. Arafat had lost much of his glory because his government didn't really improve the living conditions of the palestinians, nor did oslo, but by this kind of actions israel makes him a national hero once again.
each and everyone of them view Arafat as their historic leader, and altough they would agree in principle that he should have less power since he's an old man in deteriorating health, by killing them Israel will only succeed in provoking exactly the same people who seek to find peace with Israel, such as mr. Korei. actually my personal opinion is that the government made this move because peace was too close, and peace would definately undermine this government (since talks had to start about ending the settlement activity, and at least one party in the coalition is radically opposed to this, so in fact it's a matter of israeli internal politics)





This is not the point. After all the slogans Arafat is a political leader and acts as such. Arafat loves intrigue - that's the way he survives by balancing between the extremists, the West, Israel, and other Arab regimes. Sometimes there is some blood-letting by an occassional suicide bomb, sometimes he speaks out, sometimes he goes into direct contact, sometimes he retreats, sometimes he condemns.... Arafat prefers the status-quo of the situation, but the status-quo is not of what is politically needed at the moment to keep the diplomatic and the peace process going as such. The idea is to introduce someone completely new - someone other than Arafat. And I bet the Palestinians are yearning for Arafat to go as as well. It's not that Arafat cannot or does not want to negotiate with Hamas or IJ or other Palestinian factions; it's just he has nothing to offer to them. All of these organizations and Arafat have been with each other for over a decade where each side knows each other's position by heart and are not willing to budge. What is needed is someone completely new or may be not new but definetly not Arafat. This is normal politics - politics as they exist everywhere else in the world. Why do you think leaders in the Democratic world are elected for a limited amount of time and their is a limit to their overall rule - because after awhile their positions become old. Arafat's positions are old and he needs to give up power wheather he wants it or not.

ok, perhaps you're right, but at the same time Arafat's historic legacy means that he's more autority in the eyes of the palestinians to take real deep measures against the terrorists.
But all this won't change with Arafat gone, quite on the contrary, if he gets mudered by israel the entire palestinian political class will refuse to negotiate with israel, which will completely kill the peace-proces, and for sure the radicals supporting terrorism will gain considerable support among the palestinians. Not a single palestinian will talk with israel after this, just watch my words. and neither should they, since killing your leader isn't exactly a good policy of confidence-building...



Israel is already hated enough in the Arab world even though most of the Arab world has nothing to do with Israel. As far as loosing friends - Israel has enough.

israel has lost quite some friends during the latest years, even staunch allies such as the netherlands, Great brittain and italy are now changing their position. and in the Arab world the hate can only, and will, increase, which will mean more recruitment for al-quaida, more undermining of American efforts in iraq, etc..





Trade with Egypt stands at 70 million, trade with Jordan at around 30, and if Europe imposes sanctions on Israel.... that would never happen.

are you sure? there had already been some propositions in this direction but this new step and the european condemnation of this (for once unanimous) will speeden up things.




Hamas can recruit the thousands already including your own European citizens... Some suicide-bombers had European passports. This is not a moral question the the Muslims but rather a purely political question to the Israelis.

actually many palestinians, many of whom live in territories now reoccupied by israel (which makes the claim that the pa doesn't fight terrorism quite funny) do not support radical views of hamas and jihad. But this step will certainly weaken the position of the moderates. i can just imagine discussions in average palestinian families (which are sometimes divided over the issue): "hey look, israel is going to murder your great pacifist hero... do you still believe in peace, dear Ibrahim"?

[takeo]

The word "Moderate" is not the magic bullet as the media makes it out to be. Governmental policies of any nation or regimes for this matter are initiated and are performed by the ruling Government and if those "Moderate" Palestinians are not part of thist government it is not worth much to the Israelis. How do you consider Arafat? A "Moderate?"

those moderates ARE the palestinian government, including Arafat, as opposed to hamas, jihad, al-aqsa and the pflp who are much more radical. israel just undermined the new prime minister korei in his efforts, and since years is weakening the moderate palestinian politicians.


The peace process was barried from the start beginning with the internal Palestinian power struggle.

bs, arafat, abbas, korei, all of them wanted peace with israel and believed in the peace-process and the roadmap, even if they had sometimes tactical differences the common goals were clear.


It's been a war with the entire Arab world for the past 55 years for Israel. What else is new?

the suicide-attacks are almost daily now and bloodier than ever, only few times in israeli history (except in time of all-open wars) have been more violent and instable. Sharon's promise to bring peace was a total lie.






I guess in Georgia you drank too much Barzhomi. Against the entire world..... funny boy. How did Israel declare a war against - lets say Japan or lets say Papua New Guinea.

actually borjomi doesn't trouble your mind, but gruzian wine and vodca does, and in these interesting times there's too much to toast at... however as a half-russian i'm quite used to those.
israel has just provoked and angered China, Europe, russia, the us so that's pretty much the whole world... at least the entire un security council opposed this latest decision.



It can be won by Diplomacy and by the governments that represent the will of the people. When was the last time Palestinians voted for a new leader? May be Pals don't want Arafat anymore.

well i'm sure if there would be elections right away he would certainly win, the israeli policy would ensure his victory and make him a martyr. killing arafat iszn't actually the brightest diplomatic gesture... Israel by the way has never been good at diplomacy, only heavy us-interfearance brought some results in this category.




You expect too much. Nobody will isolate Israel internationally. Israel is a Democracy and not a regime governed by the likes of Qaddafi.

it might be a democracy but once hitler was elected democratically as well... so were milosevic, tudjman, etc. being elected democratically isn't always a garantee for good policy and certainly isn't a garantee against evil politicians being elected.



Whenever time for the election comes people will make their choice - just like they do it in the rest of the Democratic world and in France. May be the people will choose Sharon again; it is their right.

yes but in the case of israel everything depends upon the elections, in france not so. the new elections in israel (and as usual we won't have to wait too long, since this government isn't very stable...) will mean the difference between life or death for the entire region.





Fascist? Fascism is an economic system - a variation of social-capitalism. Israel does not have the latter model. But I guess you wanted to call Israeli government a NAZI government so please elaborate.... Especially how did the Government of Adolf Hitler and its policies equates to that under Arieal Sharon. Please don't be shy elaborate to the local audience the political systems, legal systems, social and economic environment, and all the rest as it applies to the two regimes.... Unless you going to show me 100% correlations I would consider you just another over-emotional slogan-maker.

ok, why fascist? because a fascist party is included in the government, a party which openly advocates that one race is better than another one (the basics of fascism) and openly advocates etnic cleansing and apartheid. besides even in the likud-party there are a few gentlemen with the same opinion.


World War III is over... the Soviet Union is no more. This is World War IV.

But don't be scared. What we face now is no worse than the threat of virtually instant nuclear annihilation we lived under for half a century.

As long as we are not swayed by those who foolishly propose we make peace with men who want nothing of the sort, this is a war we can and will win decisively.

you would be the kind of man who would have attacked the soviet-union during the cold war and provoke a nuclear war.


How can I possibly raise children in a world like this?

So, I figured out what I will do:

- Have as many children as possible
- Educate, Educate, Educate
- Teach them Krav Maga, Jew-Jitsu, guns, etc.
- Work like a dog to make America and Israel stronger
- Go into politics
- Create a news empire
- Fight until my last day, making sure that the Arab World suffers endlessly (and France as well)

Don't worry people, we'll be alright!

I see that your children have suffered from severe indoctrination

[L@mplighterM]

RAMALLAH, West Bank — Yasser Arafat (search) emerged from his office for a second straight night Friday, telling hundreds of supporters they will go to Jerusalem as martyrs.

Arafat spoke one day after Israeli leaders announced they had decided to "remove" Arafat whenever they choose. The vague wording left room for several options: deporting Arafat, capturing him or killing him.

"To Jerusalem we are going as martyrs in the millions," Arafat told the crowd.

He also recited a passage from the Quran (search).

The crowd of hundreds held photos of Arafat and chanted: "With our blood and souls we will redeem you."

Arafat answered: "With our blood and souls, we will redeem you Palestine."

The Israeli decision prompted widespread international condemnation, and the Palestinians urged the U.N. Security Council (search) on Friday to demand that Israel not expel him and halt any threats to his safety.

On Thursday night, Arafat emerged at the same spot and declared before thousands of supporters that no one will "kick me out."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97200,00.html


Send him to hell!

[cerulean]

Another example of Arafat calling for martyrs (i.e. terrorists) to strike in Jerusalem.

[David_in_NYC]

Takeo, you are 100% wrong on nearly every word you type... are you seriously asserting that Arafat gave up on terrorism in 1993, or that Israel is fascist?

This, by the way, is completely unfounded:


you would be the kind of man who would have attacked the soviet-union during the cold war and provoke a nuclear war.

You know absolutely nothing about me. I demand you either back this up or apologize for your libel.

[takeo]

well, Davide, I assumed so because you said "As long as we are not swayed by those who foolishly propose we make peace with men who want nothing of the sort, this is a war we can and will win decisively."

this is exactly the same rethorics of cold-war hawks, some of whom proposed to nuke China or the soviet-union.

yes i am serious that arafat gave up on terrorism since 1993, unless someone can proove the contrary and proove arafat funded and organised al-aqsa, jihad, hamas etc; , which didn't happen untill now, and is also very unlikely to happen.

Israel isn't fascist but its government, or at least parts of its government, is.

this phrases have already been falsely abused by israel to "proove" Arafat was calling for suicide-bombers. By jerusalem, so becomes clear if you compare to other speeches he made, he means eastern jerusalem, and martyrs are in Islam the same as in christianity, not necessarily a violent context, but rather the suffering of the people will lead them one day to victory. he by the way considers himself to be a martyr.

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by danholo
If the "world" sides with Arafat, I'll know where they stand - terrorism.

WW3 will start any moment now on full scale - it started already two years ago - I will fight on Israel's side till the end!

I really hope things calm down cause the future isn't looking good. And I'm still so young!! I'm actually a little scared.

For over 30 years - probably longer than most of you have been alive - I have been PRAYING for israel and the West to take on the arab muslim threat.

For anyone to say arafat prefers a peaceful solution, after the Karine A and his perpetuation of terrorism over the last 50 years, mean sht eperson is simply a troll on this board, not worthy of a response.

I will take the approach the israelis have in attacking the PA when hamas strikes: if the moderators do not have the brains nor sense to prevent trolls from coming to the board, there is little point to me posting here. No wonder the same people post over and over, with no new blood coming in!

If an a--hole is allowed to post garbage over and over, and the moderators fail to notify that this behavior is unacceptable, then the board LOSES its value. Note to moderators: notice how i have stopped coming here over the past year, and few new people are joining as well.

The moderators have failed in their duties, and it is unfortunate that they refuse to do anything about it.

[takeo]

so actually what you would prefere is a censorship of anyone having a different opinion (about Arafat for example). You could as well ban all Europeans from this board...

[Da Chuckstar]

Too many people are jumping to conclusions here.

First of all, we don't even know exactly what they are going to do with Arafat. All we know is that something is likely to happen regarding Arafat. Whether that is expulsion, assasination, impisonment etc, we have yet to see. Personally I would hope for imprisonment, or at least isolation from the outside world.

Second of all (this is regarding Takeo), your spin tactics don't work here. Most of these countries that spoke out are against an "expulsion" of Arafat because he will be able to do more damage while outside of Israeli control than when he is trapped in Ramallah, not because they like Arafat like you seem to think.

These countries care about Israel's security, and they don't want Arafat to roam free and do whatever he wants. If they were anti-Israel, then they wouldn't be against expelling Arafat, because that would be bad for Israel.

So next time, think about what you are writing before mouthing off such garbage, and making yourself look like such a fool.

[nuttie]

Takeo,


yes i am serious that arafat gave up on terrorism since 1993, unless someone can proove the contrary and proove arafat funded and organised al-aqsa, jihad, hamas etc

the only thing one can hold against him is that he didn't do enough to outroot the terrorists, but israel wasn't making it easy either, refusing to take any steps and destroying the facilities of the pa.Besides the documents found at Ramallah (and published everywhere, look up googles), the quotes from Arafat's incitement speeches given by members above etc, please note one fact: Arafat had seven years, from the Oslo Accords (1993) to the beginning of the present troubles (2000), to dismantle the terror groups. During these seven years, he was in absolute control of the relevant parts of the territories. What prevented him then from disarming the anti-peace terrorists?

The line of argument you present has a fallacy typical of the anti-Israeli discourse: to draw an artificial time limit which distorts the truth. You thus refer to events only from 2000 rather than 1993. Likewise, anti-Israelis begin their account of the Arab-Israeli conflict with the Arab plight in 1948, while in reality the conflict had begun with the appointment of the Mufti Amin Al-Husseini in 1921, and his immediate acts of ethnic cleansing against Jews (look up, for instance, http://pnews.org/art/10art/ROOT.shtml ). These are just a couple of examples. There are so many historical and terminological distortions in the pro-Palestinian camp, that it would take many lifetimes of fact-finding to sort them out.

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by nuttie
These are just a couple of examples. There are so many historical and terminological distortions in the pro-Palestinian camp, that it would take many lifetimes of fact-finding to sort them out.

This is the methodolgy used by arabs/ arab supporters, who ignore facts and twist events when trying to convince the not-very-knowledgeable middle cross-section of their situation. And since they repeat the same garbage and lies over and ovr, eventually the leftist media buys into it and touts their lies as factual.

I challenge any person on this board to find the arabs living in samaria or judea described as anything other than "southern syrians" who migrated to israel for jobs prior to the late 1960s. They wont, because they CAN'T.

But when dealing with a biased media that still has a long-held fondness for castro, it is hard to get the message of truth across. Bu ti am certain that justice will evenutallu prevail, and like all other filth that has attacked the jews, the arabs will vanish like dust on the garbage heap of history's forgotten villains.

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by takeo
so actually what you would prefere is a censorship of anyone having a different opinion (about Arafat for example). You could as well ban all Europeans from this board...

You are a <edited by moderator> and <edited by moderator>. I am still not 100% certain that you are not a moderator posing as the "opposition' to try to engender some life onto this moribund board, whcih has lost readers in droves over the past year.

And most of my friends ARE europeans, and they see arafat as what he is, an animal terrorist ho has been leading attacks, many of them personally at one time, to israel for the purpose of killing jews. All well documented, for those willing to accept FACTS.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by takeo
arafat is among those advocating a peaceful solution and an end to the suicide-bombings.

Don't you have any shame in posting obvious and blattant lies? When Arafat promised a "millions martyr" to a children audience and say "jihad jihad jihad", he wants peace? When Arafat pays and protect in his tower member of terrorists group, he wants peace? When Arafat planned the Oslo war 2 months before in a conference in Lebanon, he wanted peace?

There is one solution to the Arafat problem, a 3 tonnes bomb to bury him alive in his wobbly tower with his "companion de route" (ie: his terrorist chief executives).

[cerulean]

Israel might as well kill Arafat. Even if he dies comfortably in his bed (the most likely scenario I am afraid), Israel will end up blamed.

From the articles I have read, it does not sound like there is any timeline for Arafat's expulsion. It's supposed to be a "sword of Damocles." I doubt Arafat is worried in the slightest. I also do not think he plans on being martyred. It's sickeningly amusing that Sheik Yassin and Arafat, both well past 70, keep calling for everyone else to martyr themselves when they have so obviously failed to martyr themselves.

Anyway, here is an Arab viewpoint on the subject:

http://www.gulf-news.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=97367
Plot to assassinate Arafat feared
Ramallah |By Ala Mashharawi, Special to Gulf News | 12-09-2003

Palestinians have thrown a tight security cordon around President Yasser Arafat fearing his assassination by unconventional means that could be construed as "a natural death", highly informed sources told Gulf News yesterday.

The new security steps include searching and clo-se monitoring of all Arafat's visitors. The sources said that one speculated method of assassination could be the direction of poisonous rays towards Arafat's brain.

These rays can cause palpitations in the heart leading to a failure of brain resulting in gradual stop in breathing and ultimate death. . . .

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
yes i am serious that arafat gave up on terrorism since 1993, unless someone can proove the contrary and proove arafat funded and organised al-aqsa, jihad, hamas etc; , which didn't happen untill now, and is also very unlikely to happen.

Ahhh... the world according to Takeo. Black is white and day is night. Marx would be very proud.

As for Arafat, he is of course responsible for the death and wounding of thousands of innocent Israelis in countless terrorist attacks, but that doesn't count for anything in Takeo's world, right?

[Gilgamesh]

Personaly, I'd preffer the arrest Araffat and put him on trail, like we did to the Nazi Aichman, 1960-61.

Through his trail, to expose all of his connections with europeans anti semetics and Israeli curropt businessmen and power savy left wing Israeli politicians. Show the world all of his "ideology" and terroristic history, and how europeans helped him and backed him along the way, as part of their post holocuast "trauma" and cold war anti zionist game.

I would like to expose the world, or at least my Jewish brotherens the lie of the "reformed europeans" and the repented and changed Europe" of the post holocaust era, the "other generation who wasn't even born during the holocaust".
I guass the one of the lessons Europeans lern from the holocaust is to "do a better job next time"... till then, they support mass murderers of Jews and justify them selves with self hating Israelis and intelectuals for hire. In modern europe, paying for mass murder of Jewish children and elderly who return from a prey, has "nothing to do with anti semetism"...

Now, I hope, you'll understand better my hate for creatures like "Yehudi" or that german guy who used to creep around here.

Once Arafat is found guilty, he sould be hanged, and his ashes scattered at the sea.

On the other hand, Israeli high court is natoriously extrem leftie. Some of the judges are known anti zionist. If Aichman the Nazi, was to be tried today, I'm quite sure he would be realsed immidiatly pluse massive compansations from "traumas" caused by the holocaust and his wrongful arrest...

[NewsGuy]

From what I can see, it's been suggested that Arafat should NOT be eliminated for these reasons:

1. He would become a martyr.

2. It would cause an all-out war between Palestinian terrorists and Israel.

3. He should be tried in an Israeli court, instead of just executed.

I disagree with those positions. Here's why:

1) Arafat is already a martyr, and there are hundreds of "martyrs" (i.e., Islamic mass-murderers with the blood of thousands of innocent Israelis on their hands). Arafat, like any other Muslim leader who engages in Jihad-Genocide against non-Muslims is admired. For example, as we look at the Palestinian heroes, after which the Palestinians name their own children, we find people like: The Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, Osama bin Ladin, Saddam Hussein, and various suicide bombers whose giant-size photos fill every street in the Palestinian-occupied territories. So what if Arafat becomes yet another martyr? The important thing is that he can no longer order the massacre of Israelis, and a real peace process has a chance of succeeding.

2) Already, there is an all-out wear between the murderous Palestinian terror troops and ordinary Israeli citizens. The Palestinians fire missiles and RPGs into Israeli population centers EVERY DAY, and attempt to send suicide bombers into Israel a few times a week. I am quite certain that the Palestinians are already doing everything within their power to kill as many Jews as they possibly can. So what if they get even angrier if Arafat is eliminated?

3) If Arafat is captured and put on trial in an Israeli court, there is certain to be a worldwide economic embargo against Israel and endless hostile UN resolutions against Israel. At the same time, every radical Leftist and other anti-Semites around the world, will force their governments to break off diplomatic ties with Israel. While this will be only a temporary situation, it would all go much quicker and smoother if Israel just takes out Arafat in a lighting-fast military strike, and also eliminates other Palestinian terrorist leaders at the same time.

[Gilgamesh]

You have a point! I must say.

We could secretly poison Arafat... either way, once Arafat would die of old age and go to hell, Israel would be balmed any way for poisoning him... as if israel wasn't to exist, Arafat would have lived for ever...

As for capturing Arafat... again I thing world public opinion is much over rated. Turky was heavily critized for caputring the arch terrorist Utchelan. So? Nobody remembers today who Utchelan really is...

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
You have a point! I must say.

We could secretly poison Arafat... either way, once Arafat would die of old age and go to hell, Israel would be balmed any way for poisoning him... as if israel wasn't to exist, Arafat would have lived for ever...

As for capturing Arafat... again I thing world public opinion is much over rated. Turky was heavily critized for caputring the arch terrorist Utchelan. So? Nobody remembers today who Utchelan really is...

I have said this 1,000 times already; in the early 1990s a newly recognized country (i believe it was armenia) expelled ALL of their muslims - all of them, several hundred thousand at least. The hypocrites at the EU - who so conveniently keep turkey with all of its muslims from joining the EU - engaged in an economic boycott/isolation for about 5 years.

And you know what? After those 5 years ended - noone cared. NOONE.

Armenia's trade with the EU is growing each year by leaps and bounds, the terrorist threat in their country to overthrow the govt and install sharia law ended when the muslims were expelled, and now its a burgeoning democracy. Wow, with good leadership, a nation can do almost anything!!

Other countries like yemen and kuwait expelled almost 1,000,000 pals - and NOONE CARED.

You can kill 6 million people - and people forget.

Until the leadership in israel grasps that nothing they do can or will placate their external enemies - i.e., the EU, UN, Arab dictatorships etc, and begins to take the necessary steps to expel the arab population from the WB/Gaza strip, there is no hope in my mind for peace in the future.

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by rhodescholar
I have said this 1,000 times already; in the early 1990s a newly recognized country (i believe it was armenia) expelled ALL of their muslims - all of them, several hundred thousand at least. The hypocrites at the EU - who so conveniently keep turkey with all of its muslims from joining the EU - engaged in an economic boycott/isolation for about 5 years.

And you know what? After those 5 years ended - noone cared. NOONE.

Armenia's trade with the EU is growing each year by leaps and bounds, the terrorist threat in their country to overthrow the govt and install sharia law ended when the muslims were expelled, and now its a burgeoning democracy. Wow, with good leadership, a nation can do almost anything!!

Other countries like yemen and kuwait expelled almost 1,000,000 pals - and NOONE CARED.


True. No one cared.But that's because there were no jews involved.
Remember Jews are news.And anything jews or israel do is watched,reported on, and remembered.
There will be international condemnation of israel if they so much as speak harshly to arafat.
What really matters imo is what the US would do.If they just winked and issued a generic statement of disapproval,Israel could expel Arafat without suffering much damage.

[Northlander]

The explanation is that you are a liar.

Takeo has made roughly 2,800 anti-Israel posts.

You are accusing IsraelForum of censorship because a participant suggested another participant should be banned.

I never lie.
I wrote a post in this thread. Now its gone.
Thats censorship.
Havent happened to me before but Yehudi said it happened to him all the time hence my accusation.

So there really is no need for rhodescholar to blame the moderators for not acting.

[britishchap]

Originally posted by Northlander
I never lie.
I wrote a post in this thread. Now its gone.
Thats censorship.
Havent happened to me before but Yehudi said it happened to him all the time hence my accusation.

So there really is no need for rhodescholar to blame the moderators for not acting.

You wrote a post and it went? Having seen your other posts it's no great loss. But did it occur to you to save the post, post it and PM it to a fellow commie to post? That way we could be sure of reading your babbling cr@p.

BC.

[Northlander]

Commie?

Whatever.

[danholo]

That way we could be sure of reading your babbling cr@p.

So I guess you want to live in an utopia where there is only one opinion - your opinion?

Of course you can just skip North's messages but censoring them is ridiculous. Of course if the message was offensive I'd understand but knowing Northlander his posts are fully permissable as the Rules are concerned.

[takeo]

at least some people with common sence here, like Danholo, eventough he deeply disagrees with northlander, yehudi, me and others, he defends free speech. is it just a coincident that he's European? It seems like in the US difference of opinion is no longer tolerated...

and about the example of Armenia!!!!!!! Armenia as the great example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a lot of sympathy for Armenia (unlike Israel even refusing to recognise the genocide by Turkish fascists) and visited the country in july during my vist to georgia. The war absolutely devastated the country, two years ago the entire parliament was killed by a sniper, the country is really dirt-poor, people are literally starving (it used to be wealthy some 15 years ago) and everyone tries to leave the sinking ship. They won the war against azerbaidjan but lost peace( azerbaidjan is today, thanks to us-support (yes) and a pipe-line not as poor as Armenia and the few remaining Azeri are today leaving Armenia, because they want to for economical reasons mostly!!!!!!!!!) A great example for israel perhaps? becoming so dirt-poor that palestinians will leave voluntarily??? (by the way, Armenia is a great friend of Iran and Russia, and was opposed to the us-aggression against iraq, Armenians had a privilieged position under Saddam and relations between the regime and Armenia were very warm, as well as with Syria)

Yes almost all muslims have been etnically cleansed (as the azeri cleansed all armenians from their territory), but how did this benefit the country, i fail to see your point? You don't know what you're talking about...

[takeo]

Second of all (this is regarding Takeo), your spin tactics don't work here. Most of these countries that spoke out are against an "expulsion" of Arafat because he will be able to do more damage while outside of Israeli control than when he is trapped in Ramallah, not because they like Arafat like you seem to think.

not true, most of these countries still recognise Arafat as the president of palestine, such as the eu, China, Russia, etc., in fact everyone except the us and israel...


Besides the documents found at Ramallah (and published everywhere, look up googles), the quotes from Arafat's incitement speeches given by members above etc, please note one fact: Arafat had seven years, from the Oslo Accords (1993) to the beginning of the present troubles (2000), to dismantle the terror groups. During these seven years, he was in absolute control of the relevant parts of the territories. What prevented him then from disarming the anti-peace terrorists?

the same that prevents israel from disarming the terrorists, because it's impossible without strong support from the palestinian society. This support will only be achieved if israel offers genuine peace and a genuine offer to withdraw from all of the occupied territories without further conditions except peace and security... by the way at some point Arafat has tried to outroot the armed wing of hamas, and imprisoned them, but the pa never had the means as a real government to do so while since Israel destroyed the palestinian security apparatus even less. And it shows ever since israel destroyed the palestinian security apparatus the suicide-bombings have increased, sharon's policy failed and sooner or later he will have to bare the consequences for his failed policy.



The line of argument you present has a fallacy typical of the anti-Israeli discourse: to draw an artificial time limit which distorts the truth. You thus refer to events only from 2000 rather than 1993. Likewise, anti-Israelis begin their account of the Arab-Israeli conflict with the Arab plight in 1948, while in reality the conflict had begun with the appointment of the Mufti Amin Al-Husseini in 1921, and his immediate acts of ethnic cleansing against Jews (look up, for instance, http://pnews.org/art/10art/ROOT.shtml ). These are just a couple of examples. There are so many historical and terminological distortions in the pro-Palestinian camp, that it would take many lifetimes of fact-finding to sort them out.

in fact the conflict started the moment zionists started to colonise parts of palestine. that's true, however an important fact is that since 1949 the zionist idea became legitimate and led to the establishment of israel, while since 1993 the mainstream palestinians and most of the Arab world have agreed with the existance of israel (as the world did in 1949), among which Arafat.
Some extremist people in israel however never accepted peace with the palestinians and wanted to continue war. their leader netanyahu succeeded in destroying the oslo-proces, while barak, his hands tied by extremists in the government, couldn't offer the palestinians what has been promised to them in oslo and by un-resolutions.



This is the methodolgy used by arabs/ arab supporters, who ignore facts and twist events when trying to convince the not-very-knowledgeable middle cross-section of their situation. And since they repeat the same garbage and lies over and ovr, eventually the leftist media buys into it and touts their lies as factual.

actually those are the hard facts everyone except some die-hard zionist media accepts as the reality. (such as un-resolutions condemning the 1967-ocupation, official recognition of israel within its 1949-borders, apartheid-situation in the ot, etc.) Anyone, even many israeli, except the die-hard zionists are accepting this reality. the last ones fabricated some huge complot-theories to justify their denial and explain the worldwide condemnation of their views, even among leading jewish circles. Sometimes it's an Arab-nazi conspiracy, later it's a communist/nazi/Arab/liberal conspiracy. Whatever............ but luckily at least they have some friends in Europe, such as notorious fascists as mr. Le PEn...


I challenge any person on this board to find the arabs living in samaria or judea described as anything other than "southern syrians" who migrated to israel for jobs prior to the late 1960s. They wont, because they CAN'T.

of course they can, and it has been done already many times with 1000's of evidences and sources, even mainstream israeli historians don't buy this crappy theory of yours.


But when dealing with a biased media that still has a long-held fondness for castro, it is hard to get the message of truth across. Bu ti am certain that justice will evenutallu prevail, and like all other filth that has attacked the jews, the arabs will vanish like dust on the garbage heap of history's forgotten villains.

yep, here we have the complot-theory once again. So actually now it's fidel castro in a plot with cnn, bbc, North-Korea, france and al-quaida who prevents the world from accepting the real MESSAGE :rolleyes:

your world is one in which medieval knights still fight against EVIL during the Holy crusades... (this is more or less also the vision ofal-quaida and hamas, but than exactly opposite) unfortunately the world became a bit more complicated ever since (not to mention the many jews and orthodox christians the crusaders killed, perhaps even likely more than Arabs)

[takeo]

Israel might as well kill Arafat. Even if he dies comfortably in his bed (the most likely scenario I am afraid), Israel will end up blamed.

From the articles I have read, it does not sound like there is any timeline for Arafat's expulsion. It's supposed to be a "sword of Damocles." I doubt Arafat is worried in the slightest. I also do not think he plans on being martyred. It's sickeningly amusing that Sheik Yassin and Arafat, both well past 70, keep calling for everyone else to martyr themselves when they have so obviously failed to martyr themselves.

how will this improove the situation? Arafat is among the ones calling for peace, if he dies it will undoubtely make hamas even stronger than it already is (thanks to israel weakening the pa over the last years) and this in turn will mean more suicide attacks. Israel is not capable to stop them, even those from territories under full israeli controll. a clear sign that this war can't be won by military means, while Arafat's assasination will close the door for any future negociations, which means an endless and very bloody war, for both israel and the palestinians an incredible bad situation.

[takeo]

Ahhh... the world according to Takeo. Black is white and day is night. Marx would be very proud.

As for Arafat, he is of course responsible for the death and wounding of thousands of innocent Israelis in countless terrorist attacks, but that doesn't count for anything in Takeo's world, right?

actually i don't think in black and white as you are doing, i criticised Arafat before and today, but he is certainly not the leader or hidden force behind hamas, jihad, al-aqsa, etc. this is just an israeli invention without any real evidences.


Personaly, I'd preffer the arrest Araffat and put him on trail, like we did to the Nazi Aichman, 1960-61.

Through his trail, to expose all of his connections with europeans anti semetics and Israeli curropt businessmen and power savy left wing Israeli politicians. Show the world all of his "ideology" and terroristic history, and how europeans helped him and backed him along the way, as part of their post holocuast "trauma" and cold war anti zionist game.

I would like to expose the world, or at least my Jewish brotherens the lie of the "reformed europeans" and the repented and changed Europe" of the post holocaust era, the "other generation who wasn't even born during the holocaust".
I guass the one of the lessons Europeans lern from the holocaust is to "do a better job next time"... till then, they support mass murderers of Jews and justify them selves with self hating Israelis and intelectuals for hire. In modern europe, paying for mass murder of Jewish children and elderly who return from a prey, has "nothing to do with anti semetism"...

Now, I hope, you'll understand better my hate for creatures like "Yehudi" or that german guy who used to creep around here.

Once Arafat is found guilty, he sould be hanged, and his ashes scattered at the sea.

On the other hand, Israeli high court is natoriously extrem leftie. Some of the judges are known anti zionist. If Aichman the Nazi, was to be tried today, I'm quite sure he would be realsed immidiatly pluse massive compansations from "traumas" caused by the holocaust and his wrongful arrest...

so actually it's all those damn leftie nazi-Europeans and their friends in israeli court who organised the whole thing, and while you're at it who also organised 11th september, caused the hurricanes and payed for hamas, because they are self-denying anti-semitic nazist extrem-left creeps!!! yeah man!!!


1) Arafat is already a martyr, and there are hundreds of "martyrs" (i.e., Islamic mass-murderers with the blood of thousands of innocent Israelis on their hands). Arafat, like any other Muslim leader who engages in Jihad-Genocide against non-Muslims is admired. For example, as we look at the Palestinian heroes, after which the Palestinians name their own children, we find people like: The Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, Osama bin Ladin, Saddam Hussein, and various suicide bombers whose giant-size photos fill every street in the Palestinian-occupied territories. So what if Arafat becomes yet another martyr? The important thing is that he can no longer order the massacre of Israelis, and a real peace process has a chance of succeeding.

Israel made arafat a martyr, before 2001 he wasn't a martyr and his popularity was descending, especially after charges of corruption and mismanagement, the failure of oslo, etc.
but the heavy-handed israeli obsession with Arafat made him a hero once again, while his assasination will convince even the most softie pacifist peaaceloving palestinians that peace with israel is impossible and war is the only option. I can garantee you that after the assasination of arafat noone is going to negociate with sharon ever since. But this suits your and the governments agenda, since you don't want a genuine peace, you are convinced that the westbank and gaza belong to israel and that palestinians should be etnically cleansed. even in times of peace you would never give up westbank and gaza if its upon you. so actually a total end to all negociated solution suits your agenda.


2) Already, there is an all-out wear between the murderous Palestinian terror troops and ordinary Israeli citizens. The Palestinians fire missiles and RPGs into Israeli population centers EVERY DAY, and attempt to send suicide bombers into Israel a few times a week. I am quite certain that the Palestinians are already doing everything within their power to kill as many Jews as they possibly can. So what if they get even angrier if Arafat is eliminated?

no, but their support will grow dramatically, which means even more hamas-members and even more suicide-attacks, and even less internal pressure to stop the suicide-attacks and go to the negociating table.


3) If Arafat is captured and put on trial in an Israeli court, there is certain to be a worldwide economic embargo against Israel and endless hostile UN resolutions against Israel. At the same time, every radical Leftist and other anti-Semites around the world, will force their governments to break off diplomatic ties with Israel. While this will be only a temporary situation, it would all go much quicker and smoother if Israel just takes out Arafat in a lighting-fast military strike, and also eliminates other Palestinian terrorist leaders at the same time.

when arafat gets assasinated international condamnation, isolation and economic embargoes will be the consequence as well, there's a lot at stake for israel...



As for capturing Arafat... again I thing world public opinion is much over rated. Turky was heavily critized for caputring the arch terrorist Utchelan. So? Nobody remembers today who Utchelan really is...

Indeed turkey captured the kurdish leader with american assistance, which was a victory for turkish nationalism and a great loss for the kurdish people fighting for independance(so terrorists according to you...). so what happened, today the war is still going on, and kurdish people are repressed in turkey as ever, while turkey is in an economic crisis. (this may not be related but anyway)

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by takeo
It seems like in the US difference of opinion is no longer tolerated...

No <edited by moderator>, there is just very little tolerance in the US for <edited by moderator> who lie, refuse to accept facts, and never admit they made a mistake. Like i said earlier, almost all of my EU friends agree with me, but then, unlike you, they dont hate jews.

Yes almost all muslims have been etnically cleansed (as the azeri cleansed all armenians from their territory), but how did this benefit the country, i fail to see your point? You don't know what you're talking about...

You mean this hard-hitting visit to the country, just like your visit to the Bronx for an hour a few years back, suddenly gave you an insight into the REAL-life situation of the area, more so than peopl ewho have lived there for decades?

You are an <edited by moderator>, who thinks that you can <edited by moderator> your way thru a conversation when YOU have no clue what you are talking about. I am in personal contact with both armenian govt officials - AND people who live there, and they ALL say the smartest move they ever did as a country was expel the muslims.

So who should i believe, an <edited by moderator> like you who proclaims an "expertise" after a weekend tourist visit, or the people who live there?

The fact that you tried to tell me what life in NY was like after a 2-day visit when I have lived there for FIVE decades was hysterical, and proved yet again you are a <edited by moderator> - and LIAR.

[rhodescholar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by takeo
not true, most of these countries still recognise Arafat as the president of palestine, such as the eu, China, Russia, etc., in fact everyone except the us and israel...

Uhhhh.....they placate angry arab/muslim hordes, who are violent and unpredictable.

in fact the conflict started the moment zionists started to colonise parts of palestine. that's true, however an important fact is that since 1949 the zionist idea became legitimate and led to the establishment of israel,

Buy some facts <edited by moderator>, the UN voted israel into existence in 1947.

while since 1993 the mainstream palestinians and most of the Arab world have agreed with the existance of israel (as the world did in 1949),

Like where <edited by moderator>? Had you actually ever BEEN to the middle east you would know that most of the arab nations STILL have a trade embargo with israel, wont allow israeli commercial overflights, and dont allow maps designating the state of israel on them to be sold in their country. That doesnt sound like acceptance to a rational person.

Some extremist people in israel however never accepted peace with the palestinians

Like the suicide bombing victims' families?

and wanted to continue war. their leader netanyahu succeeded in destroying the oslo-proces, while barak, his hands tied by extremists in the government, couldn't offer the palestinians what has been promised to them in oslo and by un-resolutions.

Huh? Clinton has gone ON RECORD stating that arafat walked out of the camp david talks when israel would not grant the full right of return.

Can you ever STOP LYING? EVER?

of course they can, and it has been done already many times with 1000's of evidences and sources

Give me one. Show me where in the NY Times it mentions the word "palestinian" before the mid-1960s. you cant <edited by moderator>, because it never did. And unlike you <edited by moderator>, I know this FOR A FACT, since i have read this paper since the late 1950s - every day.

yep, here we have the complot-theory once again. So actually now it's fidel castro in a plot with

Typical arab/muslim garbage. You cant address the facts/points made, so you twist and hide. You did not address the well-known leftist affection for fidel, which exists even to today - even after he has proven himself to be a murderous tyrant.

[takeo]

No moron, there is just very little tolerance in the US for idiots who lie, refuse to accept facts, and never admit they made a mistake.

so this means Bush and his administration won't be reelected?


Like i said earlier, almost all of my EU friends agree with me, but then, unlike you, they dont hate jews.

yeah really? I met very few Europeans with views like yours, tell me where do they live, what political orientation do they have? (could it be they belong to the fascist rightwing, the same people who collaborated with the nazi's during WWII?)




You mean this hard-hitting visit to the country, just like your visit to the Bronx for an hour a few years back, suddenly gave you an insight into the REAL-life situation of the area, more so than peopl ewho have lived there for decades?

I went there for one week, not much i agree but i spoke to a lot of people, we had a lot of political conversations and we could see the situation as it really is, something impossible if you have to rely on government propaganda. did you visit or didn't you visit armenia? By the way armenians are among the friendliest and most hospitable and honest people in the world. I also met by coincidence with the musician tata simonian.


You are an arrogant a--hole, who thinks that you can BS your way thru a conversation when YOU have no clue what you are talking about. I am in personal contact with both armenian govt officials - AND people who live there, and they ALL say the smartest move they ever did as a country was expel the muslims.

well immigrants and government-officials aren't the most reliable sources you know, and Armenians who can manage to visit the us aren't the most ordinary. You have to go to Armenia and talk to common people, you'll be amased. by the way the armenian government made an incredible mess and most armenians agree so.


So who should i believe, an idiot like you who proclaims an "expertise" after a weekend tourist visit, or the people who live there?

you have to rely on different sources, do some research on the web about armenia and the armenian genocide, preferably visit the country (very interesting by the way) and than you jump to conclusions. And for sure as most armenians you will have to agree that ever since independance and war armenia didn't make a lot of progress, which is an understatement.


The fact that you tried to tell me what life in NY was like after a 2-day visit when I have lived there for FIVE decades was hysterical, and proved yet again you are a born loser - and LIAR.

I just told you what i saw and heard there, nothing more, and i made a comparison with Europe. People like you seem to be big specialists about France eventough you probably never visited anything else than the tourist destinations and never spoke to French people. By the way i doubt you often visit the bronx, or at least the most seedy parts, as we were absolutely the only whites there and frown upon by people clearly not used to see white people in their neighbourhood, I never feld more unsafe.




Buy some facts moron, the UN voted israel into existence in 1947.

all right, but it recognised israel it its current borders in 1949.




Like where ass-hole? Had you actually ever BEEN to the middle east you would know that most of the arab nations STILL have a trade embargo with israel, wont allow israeli commercial overflights, and dont allow maps designating the state of israel on them to be sold in their country. That doesnt sound like acceptance to a rational person.

egypt and jordan, as well as quite some other Arab states, recognised Israel and have trade-relations.



Like the suicide bombing victims' families?

no, like the likud party and their fascist coalition parties and like the colonisers.



Huh? Clinton has gone ON RECORD stating that arafat walked out of the camp david talks when israel would not grant the full right of return.

that's bs, there were a lot of differences in camp david.



Give me one. Show me where in the NY Times it mentions the word "palestinian" before the mid-1960s. you cant moron, because it never did. And unlike you idiot, I know this FOR A FACT, since i have read this paper since the late 1950s - every day.

i don't know about the nytimes, doesn't interest me either, but i know for a fact that 99% of historians agree upon the fact that there was a people living in today israel and occupied territories who spoke Arab but nevertheless with distinctive features, sometimes they were called palestinians, such as by the brittish and ottoman rulers. In the 50's and 60's the term "palestinian" diminished somewhat because of arab nationalism but it remains a fact that palestinians are considered a distinctive people in the arab world. they are dealt with as a separate group in Syria, lebanon, the gulf-states, egypt, and in all Arab states except Jordan, where they are the majority of the population. Still, even in jordan people always make the distinction between palestinian immigrants and autentic bedouins who used to live on the eastside of the jordan river.



Typical arab/muslim garbage. You cant address the facts/points made, so you twist and hide. You did not address the well-known leftist affection for fidel, which exists even to today - even after he has proven himself to be a murderous tyrant.

yes, so what? Fidel castro isn't any more a tyrant as other latinamerican leaders who have been supported by the us for years, some moderator on this board even has affection for pinochet, the man who killed the democratically elected president and 1000's of his leftwing supporters. fidel remains a symbol to resistance against us-arrogance, Cuba is a living example of a nation not complying to the bullying demands of the big fellow, and as long as this unreasonable embargo stays cuba will continue to attract sympathy from all over the world. that said, there is a lot of criticism on Fidel in the leftist press, but how would you know, i doubt you ever read leftist press... (of course some people here consider cnn to be leftwing :rolleyes: yeah right)

i am not participating in your insulting game, it shows what kind of person you really are... i will not be provoked this time to descend to the same level as you...

[sharonbn]

rhodescholar,

Please observe that the rules of the road prohibit cursing and name-calling of other posters. I strongly urge you to calm down and revise the language you use here. Expressing of opinions, emotions and strong feelings is OK, as long as its not offending to others.

sharonbn.

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by sharonbn
rhodescholar,

Please observe that the rules of the road prohibit cursing and name-calling of other posters. I strongly urge you to calm down and revise the language you use here. Expressing of opinions, emotions and strong feelings is OK, as long as its not offending to others.

sharonbn.

Sharon -

Start editing/removing the posts of those who lie again and again, and simply troll, and i might consider your request.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by rhodescholar
Sharon -

Start editing/removing the posts of those who lie again and again, and simply troll, and i might consider your request.

rhodescholar,

Sharonbn has a point.

And when reading through this thread, your comments come across as mean spirited, even though they're factually correct.

[L@mplighterM]

Posted on 09/17/2003 9:25 PM PDT by yonif*


Translation from Hebrew to English by me:

The office of Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Yasser Arafat, has contacted lately leaders of the Fatah movement and the Palestinian security apparatus, telling them they should instruct their activists to volunteer their family members, to serve as a "human shield" to the chairman. The Authority intends of supplying Yasser a permanent "guard" of women and children from these familes to obstruct any tries by Israel to harm him.

Since last week, when Israel decided that Arafat is to be removed, daily visits have been occuring to his Mukata in Ramallah by groups of Palestinians who want to identify with Arafat; in two cases even leftist activist delegations and Knesset members from Israel. Information that has gotten to the Israeli intelligence services says that the Chairman's office is interested in continuing this and to make sure there is a permanent existence of civilians around Arafat. Palestinian women and children will be in the Mukata even during the night, so as to maybe put off decisions regarding an Israeli military operation.

-The rest of the article deals with another topic.


http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//442300

*poster at freerepublic.com

[humus_sapiens]

UN Watch: Geneva Convention Allows Deportation of Arafat (http://imra.org.il/story.php3?id=18302)

THE WEDNESDAY WATCH
ANALYSIS AND COMMENTARY FROM UN WATCH IN GENEVA
Wednesday, 17 September 2003
Issue 109



NEWS:

On Monday, a discussion was held at the Security Council on a draft resolution, submitted by Sudan on behalf of the Arab Group, in reaction to the Israeli decision "to remove" Arafat. The draft resolution, "reaffirm[s] the illegality of the deportation of any Palestinian by Israel, the occupying power" and cites the 4th Geneva Convention, which codifies the laws of military occupation.

ANALYSIS:

Many of Arafat's defenders proved to be uninformed, hypocritical and irresponsible. The Palestinian representative, Nasser al-Kidwa, pointed out that the 4th Geneva Convention "clearly prohibited such a war crime."

Article 49 of the Convention does read in part, "deportations of protected persons from occupied territory...are prohibited, regardless of their motive." Article 5, however, states that not everyone qualifies as a "protected person." It reads in part, if "an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State [i.e. Israel], such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favor of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State." Ambassadors of France, Guinea, and Malaysia made the same mistake.

Insulting the millions of murdered, tortured and mutilated people around the world, Al-Kidwa also accused Israel of committing "the worst crime in modern history, the transfer of more than 400,000 settlers to the territories."

Shameless statements weren't confined to international law. The Council was also reminded that President Arafat was the democratically elected leader of the Palestinians by:

- China, whose President Hu was elected by the Chinese Communist Party with a vote of 2,937 to 4.
- Pakistan, whose President Musharraf took power in a military coup in 1999 and then "ratified" his presidency in 2002 by referendum. He got 97%.
- Egypt, whose President Mubarak is entering his 22nd year in power.
- United Arab Emirates, whose President Zayid has ruled since 1971 and is regularly re-elected...by the six other emirs.
- the League of Arab States, which collectively represents the least democratic region of the world.
- Terje Roed-Larsen, the UN Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process.

Which countries did not qualify Arafat as democratically elected? Australia, Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Norway and the United
States--the democracies. As former CIA director Jim Woolsey said last year, "Arafat was essentially elected the same way Stalin was, but not nearly as democratically as Hitler, who at least had actual opponents." Not that Arafat had no opponent. The other candidate was Ms. Samiha Khalil, a 72 year old social worker, who got 9% of the vote. That was seven and a half-years ago. When does his term end, and will Ms. Khalil again be his opponent?

As the UN Secretary-General's personal representative, Terje Roed-Larsen's comments deserve special scrutiny and are worth quoting at length. He said, "without significant Israeli concessions related particularly to settlements and the separation wall, neither the peace process nor any peace-minded Palestinian leader would be credible in the eyes of the Palestinian people. Without a credible Palestinian leader, it would be difficult for the Palestinian Authority to take the necessary steps of consolidating security forces, disarming militant groups and establishing law and order."

Apparently, he is reading the Road Map upside-down, because the very first operative sentence requires that "In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence."

The emissary of a terrorist invokes international law. Dictators defend "democracy." A senior UN official brushes aside the UN-co-sponsored Road Map. In a word, a farce.


TO CONTACT US:
Phone: (41 22) 734-14-72
Fax: (41 22) 734-16-13
E-mail: unwatch@unwatch.org

Permission granted to reproduce any of these items, with appropriate recognition to UN Watch.


The highlights are mine. I would not expect anything else from the PA clown or the Arab League. But the UN officials must know better.

In the light of the clarification above, what are we gonna do about HAMAS rallies? Aren't those jihadees "engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State"?

[Enuff]

a discussion and popularity vote to protect the legalized terrorist 'Arafat' can be viewed thru the site: http://www.un.org/webcast/

[Enuff]

NASSER AL-KIDWA, the Observer for Palestine, stated the truth for a change, albeit mistakenly approximately 8min and 20 secs into the morning session of the discussion. Just beginning to getting into the swing of his accusations against Israel he states, “this comes after a bloody campaign by the Palestinian‘s (woops cancel that, let me get my lies straight ) Israeli‘s…against Palestinians….”

This can be listened to and watched at http://www.un.org/webcast/ during yesterday's morning session portion of the General Assembly Meeting of the conflict.

[nuttie]

Originally posted by takeo
in fact the conflict started the moment zionists started to colonise parts of palestine. that's true, however an important fact is that since 1949 the zionist idea became legitimate and led to the establishment of israel, while since 1993 the mainstream palestinians and most of the Arab world have agreed with the existance of israel (as the world did in 1949), among which Arafat. Takeo, you are not very accurate on facts. There are several points about your statement:

a. It is a distortion to say "the zionist started to colonize Palestine". "Palestine" was colonial anyway, because this is the British name of the country. The vast majority of the locals, both Jews and Arabs, were immigrants of the last two-hundred years, and none more "colonial" than the other.

b. These locals lived in no more conflict than elsewhere in the then unquiet Middle East, untill the rise of Arab National Socialism, led by the Mufti Amin El-Husseini, from 1921 onwards. This was accompanied by attempted ethnic cleansing against the Jews (not only in Palestine, but also in Egypt), and continued in the 1930s in alliance with Nazi Germany. All this is historical fact. The Arabs prefer to ignore it, and pretend the conflict began with the Arab defeat of 1948, but this is like saying that WWII began with the Invasion of Normandy. Yes, it is that big a distortion.

c. There is something truly amazing about the "civilised" world acceptance of the Arab mantra that the coflict began "with the zionist invasion" (a term taken from the Palestine charter, 1968), which they usually put at 1917. Note this: According to the Palestine Charter, Palestinian Jews will be considered those already present in the country by the beginning of "the Zionist invasion", that is, 1917. But the Palestinians take their definition of Palestinian Arabs from the UNRWA charter, which defines Palestinian refugees as those present in the country between 1946 and 1948. In other word, the Palestinian definition is discriminatory on ethnic grounds. In plain words: It is racist.