European hypocrisy and racism, Part II

[NewsGuy]

Continuing the discussion from Part I (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=451) .

Despite the typical silence from the EU while suicide bombers slaughter Israelis daily, the EU and France did go to great lengths to protect terrorist mass murderers in the past 24 hours, as follows:

1. The EU issues a stetment today demanding that Israel withdraw from Ramallah today, because apparently, the possibility that Palestinian terrorism would be defeated sounded an alarm in Europe.

To make sure that Europe does its utmost to perpetuate Islamic mass murder of Jews, the EU called for yet another anti-Israel emergency securioty council session at the UN.

2. The Arab republic of France yesterday made a point of condemning the US decision to seek the death penalty in the case of French-Arab terrorist Moussaoui.

The French were extremely worried that a strong message would be put out to Islamic mass murderers, and so in a last-ditch effort to protect the 20th al Qeda terrorist, they needed to try to stop the US prosecution of Moussaoui.

Contrast the public action to protect the Islamic terrorist, with the complete silence from France that very same day when the Passover masscre took place.

As usual, shameful hypocrisy from our European "allies."

[NewsGuy]

From the New York Times:

Hubert Védrine, French foreign minister cautions Israel not to act against Arafat based on "a kind of obsession that he is responsible for all that ."

Anna Lindh, Sweden's foreign minister said she was "horrified" to hear Mr. Sharon refer to Mr. Arafat this morning as his "enemy."

Javier Solana's spokeswoman, Cristina Gallach noted that the recent European Union summit meeting in Barcelona had reaffirmed the organization's faith in Mr. Arafat . "He remains our interlocutor and the legitimate authority," she said.

Muriel Berset-Kohen, a spokeswoman for Switzerland's foreign ministry, called Mr. Arafat "our legitimate interlocutor" and added, "Nothing must be done to harm him."

Prime Minister Bertie Ahern of Ireland telephoned Mr. Arafat and afterwards called on Israel to withdraw its forces from the Palestinian headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah and to end its "harassment" of the Palestinian leader.

Belgium expressed "anguish" at today's confrontation, saying it "could not accept that the physical integrity of President Arafat be placed in danger."

George Papandreou, the Greek foreign minister, decried the effort to marginalize Mr. Arafat, saying, "We condemn the army's intervention and the isolation of Mr. Arafat , just as we condemn the terrorist attacks."

Turkey, which has close diplomatic and military ties with Israel, singled out its ally in a plea for calm on all parties. "We call on both sides to take a rational path ," a government spokesman, Sukru Sina Gurel, said. But he quickly added, "Particularly Israel , in order to display rational, forward-looking and constructive stances, needs to review many concepts and views it holds."

* * *

The EU's official position:

The European Union envoy to the Middle East called on Israel today to withdraw its troops from Yasser Arafat's compound in Ramallah, where the Palestinian leader remains under siege.

"The Israeli government must pull its troops from the territory under the control of the Palestinian Authority and end its siege of the Palestinian presidency's headquarters in Ramallah," Miguel Angel Moratinos told AFP by telephone.

"Yasser Arafat is not an enemy," the envoy added.

[Slack]

you really think europe is anti-semitic ?
are you crazy? or am i brainwashed ?
a good possibility also.
there are many guys, for example in germany, who hates jewish people. they called themself revisionist or they are believer of the great jewish conspircy or whatever, but this are the same people which hates polish, russian or green insects from mars.
they hate their neighbours because they earn more money or they kill eachother because their soccerteam looses.
but they are about 3% of all.
the majority watches films of steven spielberg, (or in my case woody allen), they read books of ephraim kishon and they listen to guys like michel friedman if they want to hear something intellectual. perhaps they are fans of seinfeld too or listen to clezmar music .

in tv it looks alike the big israel military fight against some kids which throws stones and cry palestine, but in every poll you see the politic of israel will be supported.
it depends on the question.
if you ask, should israel react on suicide bombers and stop this senseless murdering of innocent people you can collect 97%. if you ask, should the 2000 years old palastine country be an independent state you also collect 97%. everbody wishes peace.
but it's not correct to say every europeen critic of israel is anti-semitic. thats paranoid, even if exemptions seems to be majority.

i think many europeens don't understand the survival fight of israel. they don't understand what that means, every day a suicide attack from fanatics.
every europeen state would declare immidiatly a war if that happens, but its ridiculous to say they are all against israel.
everbody with a little brain in his or her head see that israel is the one and only democratic state for the next 2.000 miles.
the greatist europeen or american thinkers were jewish, only fools forget about this.

errors are not intended.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Slack
you really think europe is anti-semitic ?
are you crazy? or am i brainwashed ?
a good possibility also.
there are many guys, for example in germany, who hates jewish people. they called themself revisionist or they are believer of the great jewish conspircy or whatever, but this are the same people which hates polish, russian or green insects from mars.
ok, so in addition to being anti-Semitic, they also hate other people. That doesn't mean they are not anti-Semitic. Also, it is not the green insects from mars or the Polish who are having their cemetraries desecrated and their leaders do not receive racist death threats, like the Jews do.

the majority watches films of steven spielberg, (or in my case woody allen), they read books of ephraim kishon and they listen to guys like michel friedman if they want to hear something intellectual. perhaps they are fans of seinfeld too or listen to clezmar music.

I don't think that ALL Europeans hate Jews, and I really don't know the statistics. Sure, there are many fine Europeans. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

But I do know that the official position of the European governments individually and that of the EU collectively is nearly always anti-Israel in an extremely hypocritical and racist way.

I have some questions for you:

Why is it that Israel is the ONLY member of the entire UN -- the only nation on earth that is not part of a regional body, to allow it to ever be on the security council?

How many times has there been an emergency meeting of the UN convened to condemn the mass murder and terrorism against Israelis? how many times has there been an emergency meeting convened to condemn Israel?

How many times has the EU passed one condemnation after another criticising Israel and placing trade sanctions on Israel, without EVER mentioning Arab and Islamic terrorism?

Do you seriously think that France's policies are not completely biased against Israel? Is not an Arab-influenced society?

How much money does Germany, France and Russia have invested in Iran at this very moment? How much do they have invested in Israel? I think it is clear that the EU is much more interested in its flow of oil and its investments than making morally correct political decisions.

Just listen to France's honored ambassador, who called Israel "that shitty little country" publicly, yet France did nothing to remove him from office.

And now, more and more French and Belgian anti-Semitic violence, as well as a rise in neo-nazi activity in germany and Russia.

I stand by what I wrote, that Europe is full of anti-Semitism and hypocrisy, although of course, not all Europeans belong to either category.

if you ask, should israel react on suicide bombers and stop this senseless murdering of innocent people you can collect 97%.
Then why does the EU and the individual governments not reflect this, if true?

but it's not correct to say every europeen critic of israel is anti-semitic. thats paranoid, even if exemptions seems to be majority.
Well, I think you answered your own question. The vast majority of those who oppose Israel for so-called humanitarian and political reasons are actually hiding their ugly anti-Semitism. Just dig deeper and you will find time and time again that same reality. They try to distinguish between not agreeing with Israel's policies and between anti-Semitism, but in 99% of the cases, there is no such distinction at all, and sooner or later, the anti-Semitism comes to light.

i think many europeens don't understand the survival fight of israel. they don't understand what that means, every day a suicide attack from fanatics. every europeen state would declare immidiatly a war if that happens, but its ridiculous to say they are all against israel.
The how do you explain that this incredibly simple truth is not seen on the European mass media, or made known otherwise to the Europeans? What is blocking this reality? Is it that the European governments do not follow the will of their people?

* * *

btw - Welcome to the Israel Forum. :)

I was hoping for a solid European perspective, which we currently lack.

[NewsGuy]

This is from the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1904000/1904547.stm):

French Jews alarmed by attacks

A wave of attacks against Jewish targets has struck France, prompting fears of a rise in anti-Semitism.
Shots were fired at a kosher butcher's and two synagogues were damaged in what Jewish leaders are seeing as a pattern of violence.

A leader of France's Jewish community said the attacks were warning signs that anti-Semitism reminiscent of the Nazi era could sweep the country.

He raised the spectre of another "Kristallnacht", the name given to the night of 9 November, 1938, when German mobs embarked on a rampage of anti-Semitic violence with the backing of Adolf Hitler's Nazi government.

The attacks all came within 24 hours each hours of each other at the weekend.

- About 15 masked assailants smashed two cars into a synagogue in Lyon and set it on fire.

- A man fired a shotgun twice at a kosher butcher's shop in a village near the southern city of Toulouse.

- Arsonists tried to burn down a synagogue in Strasbourg, in the east, but failed to do serious damage.


No-one was hurt in the attacks, though there was a report of a Jewish couple being assaulted in the town of Villeurbanne, in the Rhone region, causing the woman to spend the night in hospital.

Jewish leaders want increased security

Jean Kahn, president of the Central Board of French Jews, said: "If it carries on like this, we risk one day being faced with another Kristallnacht."

[Flame]

NewsGuy! That is THE million dollar question! ---- What is blocking this reality? ---- That is the exact question I have been asking myself all along.

Before the mantra of "occupation" what motivation did the arab counties have for attacking Israel before she was even 24 hours.... and why was it problem for arabs and the rest of world to relinquish the Jewish Holy Land back to Jews? And what problem did the world have with Jews that it was necessary to have a "final solution" and why for 2000 years was the various "nations" so determined to conquer the Jewish Holy Land. What blinds the other nations to the reality that in fact they are causing all the problems and that if once and for all they would just leave us alone... peace would come to the region.

How is it that for 2000 years Christians never refuted that Israel is the Jewish Holy Land. And all the sudden this historic people of Palestine appear and our history is up for debate? If this is so, then their Christianity is up for debate as well.

[Elena]

Hola from Madrid:
First of all. The european union (not only France) rejects the death penalty and wants to finish with it in all the world (USA, china, Africa.....) This month the life of a woman called Safiya ( She was unjust codemn to death in Nigeria by an islamic fundamentalist law) was saved by the human rights organizations supported with the signatures of thousands of european citizens (about 300000 only in Spain). The europeans reject the death penalty in all the situations, It´s a grave mistake to say that the french or the europeans defend the terrorists.

Yes, It´s true, we criticize the actions of the current goverment of Israel, and especially we criticize Ariel Sharon, but isn´t because we don´t like Israel, we only think that the goverment of Israel is choosing a wrong way.

Yes, It´s true, Arafat is a coward because didn't sign the peace with Barak. Yes it´s true, Arafat must fight against the terrorism, but I don´t believe that he can controlate all the radical groups, that is impossible because there is a lot of hate of many years.

Yes, the europeans condemn the suicide attacks against innocents citizents of Israel, but another war against the arabs isn´t the solution. Ariel Sharon thinks that with tanks can defeat the terrorism, He also forget the diplomatic way and the peace talks. To destroy Arafat and trample the palestinian people isn´t the solution, it´s only revenge.
Israel can win another war (his army is the most powerful of the middle east), but tomorrow (with or without Arafat) the palestinians will be there, in Cisjordania, in Gaza, in Israel...
what is the solution? To throw all the palestinians out of Israel?
I don´t think so. The solution is a just peace with the palestinians. It will be a hard and difficult process, but only the words and not the sword can solve the problem.

P S: Sorry for my poor english and I hope don't ofend anybody. It´s only my opinion

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Elena
Yes, It´s true, Arafat is a coward because didn't sign the peace with Barak. Yes it´s true, Arafat must fight against the terrorism, but I don´t believe that he can controlate all the radical groups, that is impossible because there is a lot of hate of many years.
Hola Elena,

That is a nice theory that the European media tries to tell its audience. The reality is very different.

No one says that Arafat can control each and every single suicide bomber, and that was never asked of him. Instead, Arafat is the one whose own troops that he can control very well, are those murdering Israeli citizens. The Fatah, the Tanzim and the al Aksa Brigades are directly under Arafat's command and often muder Israelis while wearing their uniforms.

As for the Hamas and Hizbullah, of course Arafat can control them very easily. He has 40,000 armed troops and they have approximately 5,000.

But it's not a question of Arafat preventing the terrorism, the problem is that Arafta directly is ordering the terrorism personally. From the Karin A ship from Iran, to the hundreds of suicide bomb belts and pipe bombs filled with nails that were confiscated in his personal office, Arafta is directly the commander of terrorism against Israeli civilians.

The European media likes to hide these facts from its audience, but it is the truth of the matter.

Ariel Sharon thinks that with tanks can defeat the terrorism, He also forget the diplomatic way and the peace talks. To destroy Arafat and trample the palestinian people isn´t the solution, it´s only revenge.
ok, first of all, Sharon has stated that his goal is to destroy the terrorist infrastructure, not every single act of of terrorism.

Secondly, Israel is not "trampling" the Palestinian population. On the contrary, the IDF is commanded to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible. If not, we would have seen already 10's of thousands of palestinian deaths, which we have not.

Thirdly, the most important thing to remember while criticising "the tanks," is that for 3 years there were NO tanks in the Palestinian territories and peace negotiations were in progress, and a lot of land was under Palestinian control. What happened? Suicide bombings just like today and non-stop Palestinian terrorism.

Because ultimately, the entire Palestinian problem has nothing to do with "occupation." It has to do with the fact, that with or without tanks, the Palestinians have said many times publicoly that they want to destroy Israel completely. This is the problem, not Israel defending the lives of its citizens.

No offense intended to you, but I have noticed that the Europeans like to have a romantic scenario to think that there are terrible tanks and a terrible occupation of the poor Palestinians, this is an easy picture for them to think about. But the reality is much more complicated, with Iranian backing and weapons, and Syrian backing for Hizbullah who shoots missiles into Israeli towns, and Iraqi payments for teenage suicide bombers. Sure, it is not so romantic to think about for Europeans, but it is the reality.

The solution is a just peace with the palestinians. It will be a hard and difficult process, but only the words and not the sword can solve the problem.
Yes, like I said before, since 1993 there has been a peace process, but the Palestinians chose to mass murder Jews in the streets of Israel. So, the words turned out to be worth nothing so far. Maybe now it is time to try something different to create a new Palestinian government that can eventually make peace.

P S: Sorry for my poor english and I hope don't ofend anybody. It´s only my opinion
Your English is very good! Welcome to the Israel Forum. :)

[L@mplighterM]

I think that being opposed to a woman being excecuted for adultry is just a tad different than oposing the death penalty for a terrorist or the like.

[Elena]

Yes, there are a lof of criminals that deserve the death penalty, but a justice system that can guarantee that an innocent never will be condemn doesn´t exist.

The evidence is in USA where every year are condemn to death and execute innocent people, and after a new investigation demonstrate their innocence.

[Thair]

I didn't feel like reading all the rubbish written, so I'll just leave a comment or two. First, anti-Semetism should be redefined to anti-Arab. Bluntly, how many Jews living in Israel or around the world have tan skin and are not descendants of Poles or Russians? Arabs, on the other hand, speak a Semetic language AND have Semetic features. Second, Europe doesn't "hate" Jews, it hates their racial apartheid state. Also, if you people didn't realize, Americans are not that popular either. To Europeans, they're ignorant bullies. What do you think the EU is? It is nothing more than attempt to break American hegemony on the continent. NewsGuy, read from other sources other those in America. It will definitely broaden your horizons.

[L@mplighterM]

Thair did u read your own garbage before u posted it?

[Thair]

Garbage? Don't be sad. The truth hurts. I merely speak of science. Scientifically speaking, Jews over the centuries have mingled with many people. As far as Israelis, that would be Indoeuropens. While they speak a Semetic language, their complexion reflects that of a white man(no offense).

Take Jesus's time, for example, are you willing to tell me that the Jews back then looked more like the Jews nowadays, or the Arabs. Face it, Arabs have more Semetic genes than the present day Jew has. If the truth hurts, oh well.

Also, I noticed some nonsense about women committing adultery. First, you need to know a little Islamic law rather than read the Washington Post or divulge CNN word for word. In Islamic law, a "muhsun" (i.e. nonvirgin who lost virginity with a sane person and through marriage, of course) can be executed only for that crime if four witnesses are brought. These witnesses must say they saw the reproductive organ of the male enter the female's birth canal (I refrain from using more vivid details). If not, those witnesses are whipped for defaming one's character. As far as women, one can tell if she's been fooling around if she has a baby while she is a muhsuna with no legal husband. Common sense. As far as Nigeria, if the man was found innocent of rape, then naturally either the charges were dropped wrongly or that woman did inapproriate conduct ( I know in America adultery and fornication means nothing. Take Bill Clinton - who is a far better man than the current president- for example. He was on trial for obstruction of justice and not immoral conduct.). Family, unlike Western society is important ( If it were important in the West, these vile acts would not be taken lightly). Also, read the Old Testament, i.e. Torah. The same punishment is prescribed there although Rabbis practice what they see fit. Before you criticize, learn about Islam from a Muslim( Better yet a respected Sheikh who doesn't serve on Mubarak's payroll).

[L@mplighterM]

If the truth hurts how come I?m not hurting?

So you want to talk about genetics?

Alright I?ll give you my opinion.

As far as the situation in Nigeria goes you?ve got it all wrong. She was acquitted because the law under which the charges were laid weren?t enacted prior to the alleged crime. I don?t have to learn any garbage about Islam from you because the fact is you don?t seem too intelligent.

[Flame]

Lamp... also torah over thousands of years has a lot to do with it too... whether you study it or not, it remains a spark in our hearts... and to those who do study torah are the light for those of us who don't.

[Flame]

Oh... and as far as the thread topic about hypocrisy....

The POPE!

What nerve that guy has, at all, to speak about morality when its so out in the open that he heads an institution which has become a breeding ground for pediophiles!!!

Sorry poppsy.... clean your own house and repent repent repent for decades of marjor sins before opening your big stupid mouth about morality...


And this is not a slam against Catholics in any way shape or form!

[L@mplighterM]

The Pope is the head of an organization that attracts homosexual and pedophile priests. The Vatican should shut its mouth in this situation or at least present the situation as it stands based on facts.

This is a slam against all the Catholics that know what’s going on and don’t do a thing to stop it. They keep on sending their children to the wolves I have personally spoken to individuals that are worried but………………

[L@mplighterM]

Yes I know about the torah Flame :-)))

[Thair]

Alright, people here have no respect for religion. If you wish to continue to debate, leave any insinuations and insults about Mohammad or Islam out. If you have a misconception, I'll gladly clarify it. However, I cannot continue to debate since my religion prohibits me from insulting Moses and other Prophets while your religion doesn't prohibit insulting Mohammad and Islam. If I were to continue in such a manner it would be a grave sin on my behalf. Thus, lay off the insults, and I will provide a view that disagrees with your point of view. As far as attacking me personally, I see it only as a minor childish acts. Also, if people want me off, just post it or contact a moderator. That's all, so leave Mohammad and Islam out of it. (One might say that I use Islam as part of my arguments. One must understand Islam is very important to my upbringing. Where did I learn to become a "fanatic?" One can blaim to a small degree racist comments I received in elementary school during the Persian Gulf War, i.e. I am not accepted as an American, rather I am a Saudi Arabian who is Saddam's nephew. Islam doesn't teach racism).

Note: I'm an A student at Loyola University, New Orleans, LA. So don't attempt to attack my intellegence unless ivy school arrogance is way out of my league.

[Flame]

Sorry Thair... I'm sure you're a very nice person... but in case you haven't noticed... islam is out to destroy Israel, Jews the primary target.... I think you might understand if we don't have respect for islam or the first man to declare death to Jews.... for not accepting him as a prophet.

Respect begets respect... when islam calls off its jihad... when islam will leave Jews alone... then... it will be time for respect. By the way.... I live in the same area and Loyola students aren't that impressive... when you're an adult you will understand too that kids have a long way to go before they really know anything.

[McSceptic]

It's not just Islam that has it in for Israel, it's nationalism too. The PLO is a largely secular organisation, including Arafat's dominant faction.

The Israelis actually encouraged the rise of Hamas to act as a counter-weight to the Palestinian nationalists who they saw as their main threat at the time. Well, live and learn.

Even without Islam there would still be a dispute in Palestine between the two nations.

[Flame]

But there might not have been terrorism without islam. Mohamad declared jihad against Jews and in the 1820's a young muslim man began what we know today are islamic terror tactics... forget his name and what he called the group... it sounded spanish.... but it spread like wild fire... and thus islamic terrorism was born... influenced the entire region, so what you imply is just not so.

The dispute took root with arafats uncle the mufti (islamic) who worked very closely with hitler and hitler had a eastern european muslim nazi faction as well. Islam is indeed very much a huge factor, to say its not is niave.

[Thair]

First, if what you say is true about the armies, then they represent themselves and not Islam. As you may know, racism is not a part of Islam. What I'm trying to say is don't judge a relgion by its "followers." Just as I may not like Israelis, I deeply respect Moses and other Prophets common both to Judaism and Islam.

Also, I'm throwing in the towel. Everybody is taking shots at me (which I don't mind), but I fear that I may provoke someebody to say something not nice about Mohammad or Islam. Also, I seen in this forum this theory applied.

"Talk is cheap. Action speaks louder than words."

I leave with that note.

[L@mplighterM]

I don't know if this is the fellow whose name you couldn't recall?


In the 1820's Egypt (a tributary to the Ottoman Empire) took over the Sudan. Gradually rising discontent among the native Sudanese exploded into open revolt led by Muhammed Ahmad Ibn Abd Allah, who declared himself to be the Mahdi, or Messiah. Muhammed Ahmad al-Mahdi viewed himself as the renewer and reformer of the Muslim faith. This was Sudan's first brush with Islamic fundamentalism. In 1898 however, an Anglo-Egyptian force defeated the Mahdi's

[Flame]

Actually Lamp it was in Jerusalem... 1820s... If you go to my signiture link below... I have over the past 2 years collected articles and links to Jewish history websites. I'll have to go take a look... I have a link to that in the list.

Never heard of that situation... but with a billion of the followers... sort of hard to keep up with all of the situations.

By the way since Thair isn't returning... I'd like to comment on his absurd notion that women have to be covered from head to toe because of men's reaction by visiuals. Rather than learning to control their impulses, (which billions of men seem to do very well).... control the woman... not one inch of skin can show or the man might have to rape her.... and if something does show... she gets the crap beat out of her. Great system.

FOUND IT.... follow this link... http://pub94.ezboard.com/fgalaxy500frm1.showMessage?topicID=40.topic

[L@mplighterM]

Below is an article and a link.

This involves 11, 12, 13, etc year old girls and I read about it constantly. It won’t be long before it reaches the shores of America. The common argument is that the girls aren’t wrapped in blankets with slits cut out for the eyes.

I have spoken to many female teachers in Europe and one common complaint is that most Muslims males are extremely disrespectful to them.

Quite frankly I don’t think they give their actions a thought. This involves 1st and 2nd generation young people males and I would imagine a high percentage are from Turkish descent. In Denmark and throughout Europe there were celebrations after 9/11 and I have personally spoken to eyewitnesses on ICQ.

Admittedly I have no idea what percentage of young people we are talking about so I guess it’s somewhere between .01% to 100%.

I have spoken to young Moslems on live chat (with a different nick of course and they come to the site mostly from the EU but also from other places around the world) and I no doubt that some of them would think no more about killing a Jew than having a leak.

The police monitor the site unbeknownst to the chatters and I’ve had a chat with one of them the cop blew his cover accidentally one night a couple of years ago and I clued in.

http://cphpost.periskop.dk/default.asp?id=17837

The country's leading Muslim organisations have initiated a campaign to focus on, and hopefully find a solution to, the increasing number of gang rapes being committed by teenage immigrants. Babar Baig, spokesman for the Muslim Youth League, said it was the duty of all Muslims to get to the bottom of '...this abnormal behaviour and moral depravity.' The campaign
kicked off with a public debate in Valby this week attended by Muslim leaders, social researchers, integration experts and politicians.

(The mufti in Oslo says it's the girls' fault for dressing
provocatively.)