A peace plan that could work (but won't)

[Leviathan]

Understanding that this will never happen...

There is a very clear and easy path to full Palestinian statehood. It seems to me that if Arafat and the Arab world leaders understood the culture and nature of democracies and if they truly only wanted a homeland for the Palestinians, they would enhance the Palestinian "victim" status by the following:

1. Recognize Israel and it's pre-1967 boundaries without consultation or concession from Israel and as a precursor to any further discussions.

2. To the extent possible, limit or halt the activities of suicide bombers. Aggressively pursue, arrest and punish those who support and encourage suicide bombers.

3. Remove the ridiculous anti-semetic propaganda from textbooks and classrooms; include Israel (in some Arab-acceptable boundary format) on their maps.

4. Sit back and wait (it won't take long).

What do the Palestinians and the Arabs gain from what would appear to be a completely one-sided capitulation? Pressure, pressure and more pressure. If Israel did not respond quickly to such efforts, the US, Europe and the rest of the democratic world would very quickly be howling. The awkward comparisons to South Africa would quickly become less awkward and all the fashionable artists (Paging Mr. Bono....) would quickly make the Palestinians much more of a cause-celebre than they currently are.

There would be a Palestinian state very quickly - likely with a divided Jerusalem as it's capital and with a number of concessions that Israel is - perhaps rightly - reticent to make now. Aid would flow to that state from the bleeding hearts of the liberal hordes here in North America like nothing we have ever seen. We'd see story after story of the plight of the poor impoverished Palestinian families.

Frankly, the Palestinians lose nothing by granting the above four conditions. They can always return to allowing and fostering suicide bombers; and they could do it with a renewed sense of entitlement and the backing of the world community I suspect.

The best thing the Palestinans and Arabs could do is to make Israel the bad guy - and right now opinion is clearly divided on that issue. Taking the above four steps would put Israel in an untenable position should Israel try to maintain the status quo for long.

The problem is that peace and statehood aren't what's wanted. The problem is that I don't think people with vision exist on the Arab side and those with vision on the Israeli side are rapidly losing their voice.

[Flame]

The problem is that islam is a religion of the sword. A few years ago one of those 60 min shows aired a video that had been taped in secret... the arab big wigs behind closed doors indulge in a very perverted ritual which is similar to that harem belly dance ritual. but is now by men dancing for men, with a sword and mutialiting himself while dancing provocitivly. From what it looked like... it is a vestage of sword worship... but highly erotic and homosexual in nature. ((( I just remembered even some traditional belly dancing involed the use of a sword, but the women never cut themselves. They used it the same way they use large snakes.))))

Another problem which will never stop is the constant propaganda televised on the government stations in the guise of news. People resopnd as you know much more emotionally to images and sound than just by reading these things in text books.

Why are all these arab nations so obsessed with Jews? Why is hating and the goal to destory Israel and Jews the national passtime for a billion people?

Until the US cuts off all arab oil... nothing will change. The US can't ever stand behind Israel as long as armerica's hand is in the arab honeypot.

IF there was a solution, it would have come about by now.... but we have an entire region of the world whose religion is based on violence and racism.... and the rest of us have been brainwashed to respect other people's religions.

Islam has beome so much more dangerous than Commumism ever was... oh do I miss the threat of Communism.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Leviathan
Understanding that this will never happen...

Right, this will never happen because, as you correctly say below "The problem is that peace and statehood aren't what's wanted."

The framework you mention is one that has been on the table for more than 35 years.

The problem is that any peaceful or civilized behavior on the part of the Palestinians would be unacceptable to its radical, terror-supporting population, which accounts for more than 66% overall, according to their own reports.

What is clear, however, is that, like in all Arab countries, the state-run media and the voice of the Mosque-ruling imams, control the simple minds of its gullible population and that is the key to any peaceful settlement.

If they would unilaterally, or with agreement, change the messaging to Arab society to focus on making a living instead of making suicide bombs, then there might be a chance for peace.

Like you, I highly doubt that would happen. I don't believe that any Arab government would do that, because their very existence depends on diverting their public's attention away from their own brutal and corrupt regimes, and towards the Israeli/Arab conflict.

[ibrodsky]

Actually, I think we are finally on a realistic road to peace.

Israel has demanded that Arafat hand over Ze'evi's killers and that the PA's top "security" thug hand over Barghouti. I think the IDF should go in and get them if they don't comply.

This finally looks like a real operation to crush the terrorists. When it's over, we may indeed hear Palestinian voices asking for a deal. The only negotiating tactic they understand is brute force.

[Flame]

Powell now claims its the terrorists who are causing problems in implementing the "peace plan."

And while the arab world continues to blame Israel for responding to terror attacks... SHOULDN"T THESE ARAB LEADERS WHO DREW UP THE PLAN.... WHO WOULD NOT ALLOW ISRAELTO ATTEND THE MEETING.... PERHAPS OFFER TO ASSIST ISRAEL IN HER DEFENSE OF THESE TERRORISTS?.... it's terrorists not the "citizens" of palestine who are mucking up the works.

Now that would work... yes? Arab leaders vow to round up the guilty terrorists and commence with the peace plan...

If no one will help Israel fight the terriorists... to avoid innocent civilians from being harmed, what else can she do fending for herself all by herself? The terrorism must end.... and the arab leaders MUST give a hand.... yeah... and pigs can fly.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
Actually, I think we are finally on a realistic road to peace.

Israel has demanded that Arafat hand over Ze'evi's killers and that the PA's top "security" thug hand over Barghouti. I think the IDF should go in and get them if they don't comply.

I've seen conflicting reports in the Israeli press.

From what I gather, it looks like the IDF was about to go into Arafat's office and yank out Zeevi's killers and other top terrorists, but now this is being denied by the IDF.

In fact, even after the latest suicide bombing in Tel Aviv, they turned back on the electricity in Arafat's office, fed him some yummy dinner and sent in a doctor to make sure all the terrorists are feeling well and are in good spirits.

I don't know if this is the work of the US to make sure that Palestinian terrorism is never crushed, or if it's more sabotage of the operation by Sharon's Leftist opposition. In any event, this looks like a serious setback at the moment.

If the top PA terrorists will continue to be protected, there is really no point in endangering the lives of the IDF soldiers by being there in the first place.

I sure hope that Sharon regains his sanity quickly and finishes this charade of protecting Arafat and his thugs once and for all.

[NewsGuy]

Here's the menu of Mideastern delicacies, delivered by the IDF to Arafat in his office, catered courtesy of the Israeli taxpayer, as reported in the Israeli daily "Yediot."

- A few dozen bottles of mineral water

- Various coldcuts

- 1,000 Pita breads

- Various cheeses

- Various vegetables

- Humous

- Eggs and sauce meal

Also, for a fullly romantic ambiance, 20 packages of candles and 20 flashlights were also added to the fine catering package.

[ibrodsky]

The only conflicting report I see is one that says Ze'evi's killers may not be with Arafat.

There is also a report on DebkaFiles that an ultimatum has been made for handing over Barghouti.

In any event, I don't see any evidence Sharon is backing down. I think he agreed not to harm Arafat from the start. The problem here is that most Western countries, including the US, have recognized Arafat as the PA's legitimate leader.

Of course, the US wants to eliminate Saddam Hussein...

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Here's the menu of Mideastern delicacies, delivered by the IDF to Arafat in his office, catered courtesy of the Israeli taxpayer, as reported in the Israeli daily "Yediot."


Actually, I feel a certain satisfaction knowing Arafat is dependent on Israel for survival. Maybe this will go on for weeks.

Then again, accidents can happen, particularly to people who play with plastic explosives.

[L@mplighterM]

Imagine if the Arabs or the Muslim world didn’t have anyone to blame for their misery?

They would have to blame someone else for their problems. It’s a good thing for their leaders that they have a state so they can shift the people’s attention somewhere else.

As far as the belly dancers go it has always been my contention that many males are faggots and its accepted in that religion. What they do children in that society is awful to say the very least.

I would love to prepare a meal for Mr. Arafat and believe me he would find out what his ______ is for just before he died.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
In any event, I don't see any evidence Sharon is backing down. I think he agreed not to harm Arafat from the start. The problem here is that most Western countries, including the US, have recognized Arafat as the PA's legitimate leader.

Of course, the US wants to eliminate Saddam Hussein...

Right, the problem is that everyone is still making believe as though Arafat is a legitimate leader, rather than an arch-terrorist, who has killed thousands (maybe 10's of thousands) of inncoent people. In any event, you're exactly right to make the comparison between him and Saddam Hussein.

And while Sharon committed not to harm Arafat, no promises were made with regards to Arafat's other top terrorists who are holed up with him.

Also, as it looks now, Arafat is not all that isolated as promised by Sharon, but it looks like Arafat is having a catered candle-light slumber party with an entire crowd of his gang members, and giving TV interviews every now and then.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
Also, as it looks now, Arafat is not all that isolated as promised by Sharon, but it looks like Arafat is having a catered candle-light slumber party with an entire crowd of his gang members, and giving TV interviews every now and then.

Newsguy, your skepticism is understandable, but I think this time Israel is really going after the terrorist infrastructure. Arafat is just one person. If he can be kept in an office, surrounded by IDF troops, it is as good as being in jail.

Certainly I share your desire to see him tried and executed. He, not Sharon, is the person guilty of "crimes against humanity." (The charges against Sharon are trumped up to deflect world attention from the PLO's massacre of Lebanese Christians.)

Let's see how this plays out. I don't think it will end tomorrow or the next day. I think we will see much more action ahead. Hopefully, Israel will ignore the stupid comments coming out of anti-semitic Europe and keep going.

BTW, the ZOA is calling on people to send fax'es and e-mails to Ariel Sharon to let him know we support the current offensive against Arab terrorists. Go to the ZOA site for details.

[David A]

Couldn't Israel impose a unilateral peace (or at least a form of truce a la North and South Korea) by unilaterally pulling out of the West Bank and then sealing (or maybe fortifying) the border between West Bank and Israel? That seems like a more practical solution.

[L@mplighterM]

The borders are very porous; Israeli Arabs are involved (living in Israel) and rockets.

[Jorge]

Originally posted by David A
Couldn't Israel impose a unilateral peace (or at least a form of truce a la North and South Korea) by unilaterally pulling out of the West Bank and then sealing (or maybe fortifying) the border between West Bank and Israel? That seems like a more practical solution.

I agree it sounds practical. In fact, a growing number of israelis
are adopting that view with some variations. Problem is that
they are still a minority within the country. The majority seems to agree with the view of the present goverment viz., that Israel
could obtain peace and security while keeping the settlements in the occupied territories. How does the saying go? " You cannot eat a piece of the cake and keep it whole". Unfortunately the
majority of the israelis tend to think you can.

[fair]

leaders of Israel are greedy
They want to keep lands and peace in the same time
to establish great Israel
No matter howmany israelis would be killed in the war no problem
They refused 67 borders because it dois't suit great Israel
this is the the case now

[Ezra]

Back with his 6 usual "useless" sentences!

Hi.. Welcome back! Do you really expect anyone will pay attention to your post?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Ezra
Back with his 6 usual "useless" sentences!

Hi.. Welcome back! Do you really expect anyone will pay attention to your post?

I will! I will!

leaders of Israel are greedy

Please give us some quotes.

They want to keep lands and peace in the same time

We were quick to give back land in 1993, through a mutually consented agreement for the sake of peace? We kept our part of the bargain.

to establish great Israel

This is a biblical prophesy that will eventually come true. In the meantime, however, none of Israel's leaders or, for that matter, religious right wing fanatical Israeli Jews like me, have no interest in conquering or planning on conquering any such lands to achieve such goals.

No matter howmany israelis would be killed in the war no problem

Well maybe no problem with the Arabs but we Israelis don't like being killed and don't like having to kill anyone else. As Golda Meir put it so well:

"“I can forgive you for killing my sons, but I cannot forgive you for forcing me to kill your sons."

They refused 67 borders because it dois't suit great Israel
this is the the case now

Well, had Nasser, Hussein, Assad and Partners LLC not attempted to annihilate Israel in 1967, chances are that Israel would still have been happily (to all sides) within its 1948 borders.

You get what you ask for.

[L@mplighterM]

It's difficult to argue with you O Jerusalem. I mean where's the sport when you agree with most of what a person says?

I always thought that I leaned to the left.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
I always thought that I leaned to the left.

Maybe your WEBCAM is tilted. :p

[chinagul]

I think many people should think in that way:
if someone else do a mistake, that mistake can be acceptable,but if yourself do a mistake after the someone else's mistake, that cant be acceptable. that menas you do a mistake after seeing the mistake. so if ISrael kills Arabs with occupation movements, that does not require that "Arabs should send and explode suicide bombers". But at the same time, if the Arabs make some terrorist movemenets, that doesnt mean that "Israel should kill every ARabs with the thought that any Arab can be a terrorist."

and the weird thing is that, The Jews and Arabs are both from the Semitic race .... they come from the same father, and the Judaism and Islam are the unique two religion which are so much similar. So try to think about that way!!!


China Gul