Some questions

[Gatorade]

I have been only reading this forum for the past 2 or 3 days now and have found it to be very informative. Being the typical American I have only gotten bits and pieces of the going on and history of Israel, though I thought I understood more than I did before coming to his site and reading some of the posts.

These aren't trick questions. They are just stuff I don't know and am not sure where else I would find the answers.

1) In one of the threads someone mentioned the early Zionists intended to purchase land. How much land was actually purchased in Israel?

2) I was always under the impression that most of the Arabs who left in 1948 left under the orders of the Arab countries who said they would wipe the Israelis off the map for them. But I now read that something like 32% (how accurate the number may be questionable but seemed like a fair article it was mentioned in) were forced by the Israelis. If this is the case, should any reparations be given to those who were forced off the land? And what should be appropriate? Money? Land for a state? Or money and land?

3) How would a Palestinian leader answer the question, how come a Palestinian state was never an issue before 1967 when the West Bank was part of Jordan?

4) Anyone else see 'Mind of a Suicide Bomber' on MSNBC last night? Damn scary stuff. The general impression one got from watching was that in the current younger generation of Palestinians there are many willing to be suicide bombers. One guy said he did it because his family would get $6000 and was told that he and his family would all go to heaven. Any questions the interviewer asked showed the guy didn't think or question things much at all. He just accepted whatever the Islamic radicals told him. One thing was interesting was that he loved playing soccer and when asked if he would do a suicide bombing at a crowded football game, he said he wouldn't but he didn't have a reason.

At the end of the show they noted that on 9/11 it wasn't the poor young who committed the suicide bombing. So the point was that poverty alone doesn't cause this hate. Anyway, any one have comments on that show who saw it?

[Flame]

Gadorade

If you go to the link below in my signiture area you will find a link to a few chapter of Joan Peters - From Time Immorial ... if you read the book.... all your questions will be answered. She was a staunch supporter of the idea of a pal state until she went there on assignment.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Gatorade
1) In one of the threads someone mentioned the early Zionists intended to purchase land. How much land was actually purchased in Israel?

Lots. And there would have been much more purchased, if it were not for the racist and fascist policy of the Arabs not to sell land to Jews. Here's the post:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=2114#post2114



2) I was always under the impression that most of the Arabs who left in 1948 left under the orders of the Arab countries who said they would wipe the Israelis off the map for them.
Yes, that's correct. By far, the overwhelming amount of Palestinian refugees were ordered to evacuate by their own Arab states. There were also a very small amount of Arabs who were forced off their land by Israelis. The best measures for reparation to them would be the same reparations that were paid to the refugees by the Arab states themselves, and the same reparation made to the Jewish refugees, who were robbed of all their possessions and kicked out peniless out by the Arab countries into Israel.


3) How would a Palestinian leader answer the question, how come a Palestinian state was never an issue before 1967 when the West Bank was part of Jordan?
If they were honest they would say that Jordan is a Palestinian state. At the same time, the Arabs decided that there would be a mass genocide of Jews, to result in the entire land of Israel falling into Arab hands, which was the exact cause of the '67 war.

Anyway, any one have comments on that show who saw it?
I saw the show and, IMO, the reasons for suicide bombers are as follows:

1. Povery and hopelessness caused by the brutal and corrupt Arab regimes.

2. Cultural acceptance of violence and genocide of all non-Muslims.

3. Lack of education and illiteracy leading to no access to free information.

4. Official government and religious incitement.

5. Extremist Islamic influence, which glorifies and adds prestige to suicide bombing and mass murder.

6. Plain old brain-washing of stupid and gullible people into committing attrocities for no apparent reason.

[Gatorade]

Thanks for answering my other questions but I got some more now.

1) What is the real deal with happened in Sabra
How accurate is this website? I noticed that Friedman is cited on this webpage. How responsible is Sharon for letting the massacre happening?
http://www.sabra-shatila.org/


2) The bombing of the King David Hotel, how do you best explain the disticntion that this was a legitmate military target and not just a random act of terrorism the Palestinians are doing today?

[L@mplighterM]

Well you know that you can’t relive the past and the bombing of the King David Hotel was in the past.

If you want to open that can of worms then you must also introduce the British action against the Jews returning home from a war torn Europe. I wont explain the difficulties they faced in their Exodus from the concentration camps in Europe only to be stopped by the British.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Gatorade
1) What is the real deal with happened in Sabra
That site you listed is the usual heap of Arab lies.

Here's a much more accurate explanation of what happened there.

Basically, Christian Lebanese Arabs slaughtered a few hundred Muslim Arabs in revenge for the thousands of Christian Arabs the Muslims slaughtered previously. As you can see, lots of Arabs and lots of slaughter involed here. But as usual, what do the Arabs do to divert their own people's attention away from their attrocities?

Blame Israel, of course, for their won mass murders of each other, just like they are now trying to blame Israel for Islamic terrorism. It's all part of Arab self-delusion.

Anywau, here's a much more detailed discussion of the issues, right here on the Israel Forum:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=79


2) The bombing of the King David Hotel, how do you best explain the disticntion that this was a legitmate military target and not just a random act of terrorism the Palestinians are doing today?
Well, this is another Arab trick to try to equate Israeli actions with their own.

There is no comparison, of course, because there was NEVER a peace process in progress that would result in Israel's achieving an independent state at the time that Israel was fighting for independence during the British mandate.

[Gatorade]

Okay, I got two more questions that I cannot find looking on the web using a simple search engine.

1) Is there a American newspaper that quotes Arafat saying,
"I am willing to sacrifice 70 martyrs to kill one Israeli"
or
"One million martyrs are on their way to Jerusalem"

2) Is there any truth to Israel funding HAMAS any time in its history?

[L@mplighterM]

One million martyrs are on their way to Jerusalem

I watched Arafat make that statement on CNN, MSNBC or some other station a day or two before the major suicide bombing that set of the invasion.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Gatorade
Okay, I got two more questions that I cannot find looking on the web using a simple search engine.
1) Is there a American newspaper that quotes Arafat saying,
"I am willing to sacrifice 70 martyrs to kill one Israeli"
or
"One million martyrs are on their way to Jerusalem"
2) Is there any truth to Israel funding HAMAS any time in its history?

1. Yes:

March 29, 2002

"They either want to kill me, or capture me, or expel me," Arafat said, speaking by telephone to Al Jazeera television from his Ramallah headquarters. "I hope I will be a martyr in the Holy Land. I have chosen this path and if I fall, one day a Palestinian child will raise the Palestinian flag above our mosques and churches."

Arafat also said no one in the Arab world would "surrender or bow" to Israel and warned that "to Palestine, millions of martyrs will flow ."

From: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/29/arafat.reaction/

2. No, Israel never funded Hamas. But Israel did not, however, oppose the initial rise of Hamas in the 1980's because the Hamas provided an opposition to the PLO at that time, and Israel estimated that opposition to be a good system of checks and balances. They were wrong, unfortunately. Ultimately, the two terrorist entities of the PLO's Fatah and the Iranian-backed Hamas collaborated in their common goals of genocide of the Jews, hatred of the U.S. and Western civilization, as well as regional destabilization.

[Gatorade]

Thanks again, I am really impressed with this board. It is a much higher level discussion than most I have found. I am intimidated to post much here though because I don't want to clutter the board with basic stuff but want to be informed too.

But I got two questions from listening to the radio today.

1) Dennis Prager (don't really like him but listen to him on occasion - not that this matters) said on his show that the settlements on the West Bank only add 1.5% to the total population to the West Bank. Is this true? I was under the impression from the newspapers and TV that the settlements were taking over large areas of the West Bank.

His point was that Israel is about 20-20% Arab, why cannot the Palestininian nation be 1.5-2% Jewish. From what I have been reading though, the settlements will have to go for meaningful peace, just like the present leadership of the Palestinians must go before peace will be achieved.


2) I heard a caller say that some of the victims from the Passover massacre were surviviors of the Holocaust. If this is true, why hasn't this been a bigger news story?

[Flame]

Gatorade... if the Passover victims were suvivours of the holocaust that makes it all the more heartbreaking. The press will not allow anything it seems that will lend people to feel any sympathy to Jews in Israel. This is even more frightening to me than nazi germany because people know what happened before, pretended it was a tragety, and don't even see any similarity to today's events.

Even a friend of mine when I told her (a year ago) it feels like nazi germany is happening again... she said, "you are a little over dramatic." The deep down resentment people have for Jews seems to be a cherished possession... several people on this board, at this very time in a very dangerous history have the nerve to say that a couple of us older Jewish women are too hysterical and paranoid.

Wouldn't it be nice if all the problem was was a case of paranoia and not the reality that's unfolding.

[L@mplighterM]

It would be great if the whole scenario could be washed away with a few Valium (Diazepam), but I think the world is in grave danger. I have an arsenal of antiquated guns that were supposed to be used against communists. Then they go poof and the threat disappears only to rise like a phoenix from the ashes with another name.

Hysterical or overreacting no I think you see the danger that is slowly emerging in society. Islamic Fundamentalism and its evil have come to North America but is has lived in the Middle East feeding on the blood of Jews and others. Some people are very good at foresight and I fully believe that you’re one of them. I think the sky is slowly falling but what can I, you or anyone else do about it when the leaders of the world seemingly close their eyes and elect to selectively weed it out?

[Flame]

Makes me wonder who runs the State Department, what their true agenda and motivations are. They don't seem to smart to me or perhaps might not even have loyalties to this country with the insane things they have financed.

Anyone who doubts the US trained islamic warriors on American soil only has to order Steven Emerson's Jihad in America... a video tape. That might be part of the footage I saw on 60 about 7 years ago. Unfortunatley you are right Lamp... there isn't anything we can do. This is something only god can handle and personally, I don't really think a god exists, at least not any more.

The smart guys in the state department trained bin ladin and his group... to fight russia... and they trained pals to fight hamas... who 20 or 30 years ago were fighting each other. Why the state dept didn't have the foresight to see all this groups coming together is a real sign of stupidity especially it was during that time fundamental islam spread like fire across the region after the shah was ousted and aytolla took over.

The US is as much to blame as really, the rest of the world... to allow islam to become the monster it is today. A real Frankenstein creation if ever there was one.

Anyone who thinks I"m a nut or paranoid... get that tape and run a search... training terrorists in America... something like that... a ton of sites will come up... change the search words and even more will.

I never thought the world was going to get scarier than it was during the cold war.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by Gatorade
Thanks again, I am really impressed with this board. It is a much higher level discussion than most I have found. I am intimidated to post much here though because I don't want to clutter the board with basic stuff but want to be informed too.



It is nice to see someone asking intelligent questions. You have posed many and received some excellent answers. I want to add a couple of points.

Among the many things that I love and appreciate about Israel is that it is a society that looks at all areas, including its warts. There is a free press that questions and criticizes the government.

There are many different factions with different beliefs. As opposed to some of our "rival" nations who are run by dictators and brutally oppress any who disagree.

Israel has made its share of mistakes. There are things that Israel has done that I am not proud of. But you can find that in any society.

The reverberations of slavery still affect the US. Race relations are still an issue. The US fought a civil war. The US took land through warfare.

The point of this is that there is propaganda that the Palestinians and arabs present to try and paint Israel in unfavorable terms. They use terms that are designed to inflame and draw upon emotion, but fail to present all sides.

Israel like any other nation has its share of faults, but it has many many positives. And like any other nation it will not bow to terror, it will fight. Unfortunately the actions of the terrorists have an adverse affect upon people who might be entirely innocent. Sometimes the rotten apples really do spoil the bunch. My apologies for the rambling here.

[Gatorade]

Thanks for the responses. Now I got another question.

Was the 1968 PLO Charter ever changed? I read through the 1968 Charter and it clearly states it wants the armed struggle take over of Israel. I tried to find the amended Charter but all I could find was the PNC was going to vote for changes. I cannot find the amended Chater but found some old sites saying it was never changed. So, was it changed and where can I find the amended Charter?

[Flame]

That arafat will not revoke that charter is a huge problem.

After reading this... you will understand why the process is so complicated.

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp447.htm

A run down of Camp David talks.

Arafat wants control of all of Jerusalem... he refuses to control half... a statement he makes is that... don't worry, we will allow the Jews to pray at the wall.... GEE THANKS! AND Jews should trust his promises????? Arafat goes on to say that Jerusalem is not just the palestinians but belongs to the entire arab world and christians.... funny... when King David built Jerusalem, Christianity and islam were still 2000 away. Islam is a very new religion... 500 years after Christianity... what claim do they have anywhere in a religious argument????? According to islam... once a city has been conquered, and islamisized... it is always islamic.... with that sort of logic do you think they will accept the reality that most of the middle east was Judaized and therefore remains Jewish property? Doubtful. Mecca and the dome on the rock are both atop were Jewish temples once stood.

[Gatorade]

Did you provide the correct link? I scanned through that link and all it covered was Jersulem.

I was interested in information on the change to the 1968 PLO Charter -
http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plochart.htm

I was interested in finding out if the PA ever announced the 1968 PLO Chater is deceased or did they alter it? In either case, did the PA have any sort of Charter or consititution that is written and on the web?

[Flame]

Gatorade... go to the site I have at my signiture.... you'll find a link to the charter near the bottom of the page... and perhaps you will find what you are looking for in that link or in others?

[dagitab]

Israelis can play the same game too without becoming suicide bombers. Concerned Israeli citizens, specially the affluent which seems to hurt the most, would form a group that will hire mercenaries. Every time a Palestinian suicide bomber kill X number of people, the mercenaries will be activated to kill 2X, 3X, maybe 4X number of Palestinians, defending on how mean they want to get.

As of now, one dead suicidal Palestinian can be equal to 5 to 20 dead Israelis. By doing my arithmetic, a dead suicidal Palestinian bomber might still be equal to 5 to 20 dead Israelis, but that suicidal Palestinian will bring along with him/her 20 to 80 dead Palestinians.

That's the only kind of arithmetic the Palestenians will understand. If carried out, I'm pretty sure the suicide bombing will stop eventually or else the Palestenian's race will be wiped out.

[Gatorade]

When Jordan gave up the rights to the West Bank, was there a document that lists the land is supposed to go to the Palestinians?

What is scoop on the "new historians" Benny Morris and Tom Segev. Anyone read those guys books? From what I hear they present quotes and documents that are pretty different the the history of the West thinks of what happened pre 1949.

Who started the fighting in Jordan in 1967? Is this correct - Israel told Jordan not to get involved and didn't do any pre-emptive strikes against Jordan. Jordan did some token gun fire after Israel did bomb Egypt and the IDF understood that they would and accepted it without striking back. However, Jordan thought Egypt was winning the battle and then attacked after they were told Israel wasn't going to attack them. Jordan attacked Jerusalem. Then Israel went on the offensive.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Gatorade
Who started the fighting in Jordan in 1967?

Back in January, Takeo and I discussed something very similar:


http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=688#post688

It includes a discussion about wo started the 67 war and a quote from the Jordanian government that might surprise you.

[Mediocrates]

More importantly, what happened in 1970 when Jordan was involved, effectively, in a civil war with it's own Palestinians. Several thousands Palestinians were killed outright and hundreds of thousands more were pushed over the river Jordan and into the West Bank.

Here's one military briefing:

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/bravo/blacksept1970.htm

(Somewhere between 3500-5000 PLO fighters killed)

You can google more on your own.

The numbers of documented refugees from the Jordanian civil war are for obvious pro Palestinian-antizionist reasons, not well documented.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/bravo/blacksept1970.htm

This alludes to 'thousands' and clearly there were camps in Jordan that were destroyed/uprooted wholesale.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.fpri.org/peacefacts/061.199902.sicherman.husseinbintalal.html

Palestinians assassinated the first king of Jordan, at the al-Aqsa mosque in view of his grandson, King Hussein who was nearly killed himself. He was promoted to king soon after since his own father was deemed too insane to hold the job.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Palestinians assasinated the first king of Jordan, at the al-Aqsa mosque in view of his grandson, King Hussein who was nearly killed himself.
This is of course true, which goes to show how the Palestinians actually treat their holy shrines as perfect settings for murder.

Also, I would note that, in addition to the Black September incident of 1970, the Palestinians tried to assisinate the Jordanian King of nearly a dozen occasions, from poinsoning his food, to snipers, to various plots, etc.

One of the mainstays of Arab culture is to conceal Arab vs. Arab violence and treachery, which is why many such facts are barely known.

[Johnny Yuma]

Back in the early seventies, when I went to college, the first time, I took several classes in psychology. One was a transactional analysis class. (Yep. PAC analysis and all the good stuff...) Anyway.... I remember reading a book by Dr. Eric Berne titled, "Games People Play". In this book, Berne talks about a psyche game called, "Let's You And Him Fight."

The object of the "game" is to start a fight between your enemy and someone else. While they fight, you get to sit back and watch, for as long as they fight, your enemy is not a threat to you. (Groovy, huh?)

To maintain your new found peace of mine, you must not allow them to destroy one another else your enemy comes back to haunt you. However, you must keep the enmity between the two at a high enough level that the fighting continues, and they do not reconcile and end the hostilities, or your troubles return.

Sound familiar?