European Bias

[old-reb]

Last night I was at a dance for us old folks and I was sitting with a German WW2 veteran and his Italian girlfriend. Otto was telling one joke after another but then he told the following joke: There was a Jew and a Christian boy that lived and played together from the time they were only a few years old and the best of friends but one day as teenagers the Christian boy punched the Jewish boy in the nose and blood spattered everywhere and the Jewish boy asked, "Why have you done that to me?" The Christian boy replied, "because your people killed my Christ!"
"But that happened 3000 years ago, why do you punch me now?
"Because I just heard about it yesterday", replied the Christian boy.
That was the joke.

So, I asked Otto, "What do you think could be done to end the problem with Israel in the middle east?

He replied,'If the USA would stay out of it the Arabs would have solved the problem years ago.

Then there would be no Israel, I replied

Otto says, "The Jews never had an army or country before, why should they have one now?"

They started playing a polka; Otto stands up head up, tall and proud; proud almost to the point of being arrogant and he does the polka with an aristocrat cultured manner that no American can match. Before the dance is over Otto slumps back to his seat. Defeated by time and lack of breath.

old reb

[old-reb]

In spite of making hundreds of post for Israel and reading thousands and seeing the horror of attempted Islamic genocide of Israel, in spite of all that I could say nothing. It just seemed so simple and easy; so uncomplicated. It followed what I had always been taught in my youth. It had to be right.

We were in a Liberal setting, women everywhere and conditioned to be happy and not argue or fight. Pleasantness was paramount. I asked Otto his opinion of Israel, he didn't just voluntarily blurt out the words.
-------

I marvel that others can dismiss the loss of Israel as nothing but I see how easily it can be.

How would you reply to the German and remain calm, civilized non-agressive and pleasent to the ladies. Anything else would brand you a nut and your words would land on deaf ears.

old reb

[Isiah 2:4]

Its not a 'European' Bias though is it?

Its a Bias purported by a couple who just happen to Europeans.

There are biases all over the world, of every slant ,side and colour of the spectrum.

Even over the pond.

[Adversary2Arabs]

With a few major exceptions, eveything European and their colonies and former colonies (IE. Australia, South Africa, etc) all seem to be generally anti-Israel.

And yes, if you're anti-Israel you're pro-Palestinian. There is no nuetrality in this world as I've come to find out. You can say you're nuetral all day long - it doesn't mean you don't support one side more than the other.

[takeo]

in France you will be much more likely to hear anti-Arab bias instead of anti-semitic bias. Don't be offended so easily, i can imagine what for example Afghan or pakistani (or, why not, French) people have to endure in the us...
There will always be biased and racist people all over the world (in not in the least here on this forum) but as long as they don't make the policy it's not a real problem.
But concerning old german WWII-veterans, i have some bad experience as well, my family told me never to trust germans... kind of a bias indeed, but still they are not as reformed as they claim to be. I met some old austrian veterans who were still very sorry they lost the war against "those barbarians" (the Russians)

[old-reb]

I think a big problem is how to voice defense for Israel in a civilized way.

Otto Merrily told a joke and expressed a simple solution for the Arab/Israel conflict.

I said nothing. I could accuse him of being of being a Nazi, of wanting 6 million people die. I could go into how the Muslims don't want any Kafirs in their territory. I could punch him in the nose.

This is a problem for a Israel supporters. I need an intelligent civilized reply to his common anti-semitic statement.

How would you reply to him? He is a best friend.

old reb

[humus_sapiens]

Why the Jews restored their country? Because they had some rather "unpleasant" experiences in Galut, if you know what I mean. We realized that we need a strong defense to protect us for the future.

If this is too polite and too politically correct, I think the Jews deserve their own country more than the Germans, especially those like him. Why no one questions the rights of Jordanians to have their own state?

[frizzer1]

Originally posted by old-reb
I think a big problem is how to voice defense for Israel in a civilized way.

Otto Merrily told a joke and expressed a simple solution for the Arab/Israel conflict.

I said nothing. I could accuse him of being of being a Nazi, of wanting 6 million people die. I could go into how the Muslims don't want any Kafirs in their territory. I could punch him in the nose.

This is a problem for a Israel supporters. I need an intelligent civilized reply to his common anti-semitic statement.

How would you reply to him? He is a best friend.

old reb

You ask a good question.If he's a friend that makes it more difficult...and I have found that in a social setting, when you are unprepared for that kind of statement, you tend to be shocked and find yourself unable to act.
I was in Nassau with friends back in the 60's. and there was a table close to us with 2 white suited germans...they practically fit the stereoptype.with their hollywoodish german accents. They started ridiculing the young black waiter and he was shaking and frightened...and we just sat there...all of the tables around us saw it too..and we did nothing....
I still am ashamed of that.
I think though that with your friend,,you should explain to him that the holocaust showed us that we need a country to call our own..somewhere we can find reguge if need be..and a country that will protect us when the rest of the world stands by & watches.

[Mediocrates]

I don't find Zud Africa to be generally antisemitic. In fact I find most English speaking places to be somewhat more sympathetic publically and politically to Israel compared to non English speaking places and people.

I think Oz and Kiwi are going through a conservative isolationist far right phase or maybe they're just more vocal about it now.

[Communication]

Once a Nazi, always a Nazi. That's what I'd say, friend or not. He's basically advocating another holocaust. And somehow, this time, the extermination of the remanent of world Jewry would come without the cost of European guilt for the deed because it would be the Arabs finishing off the job. Sorry, Otto, but not according to all those signs that European shop owners pointed to in their windows telling the Jews to go to Palestine when they refused to sell them bread.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by frizzer1
You ask a good question.If he's a friend that makes it more difficult...and I have found that in a social setting, when you are unprepared for that kind of statement, you tend to be shocked and find yourself unable to act.
I was in Nassau with friends back in the 60's. and there was a table close to us with 2 white suited germans...they practically fit the stereoptype.with their hollywoodish German accents. They started ridiculing the young black waiter and he was shaking and frightened...and we just sat there...all of the tables around us saw it too..and we did nothing....
I still am ashamed of that.

I think though that with your friend,,you should explain to him that the holocaust showed us that we need a country to call our own..somewhere we can find reguge if need be..and a country that will protect us when the rest of the world stands by & watches.

I think this is the best advice and I will prepare myself with info on the fact that Israel existed before and how history has proven the dangers of trusting foreign armys to protect them.

With the public abuse, there is more danger. I saw a black man abusing some white waitresses and another black man repremended him but the abusive blackman warned the good one that he might lose his life if he didn't go back and sit down, so he did.

old reb

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Communication
Once a Nazi, always a Nazi. That's what I'd say, friend or not. He's basically advocating another holocaust. And somehow, this time, the extermination of the remanent of world Jewry would come without the cost of European guilt for the deed because it would be the Arabs finishing off the job. Sorry, Otto, but not according to all those signs that European shop owners pointed to in their windows telling the Jews to go to Palestine when they refused to sell them bread.

Communication,

What you say is absolutely true and he even boast of his military victory's; however he is now a nice old 85 year old man and at this point the Israel thing becomes a political thing while friendship and good relations in our group reigns supreme.
Still, I must not let such statements go unchallenged.

old reb

[old-reb]

Originally posted by humus_sapiens
Why the Jews restored their country? Because they had some rather "unpleasant" experiences in Galut, if you know what I mean. We realized that we need a strong defense to protect us for the future.

If this is too polite and too politically correct, I think the Jews deserve their own country more than the Germans, especially those like him. Why no one questions the rights of Jordanians to have their own state?

I googled galut and found it to be a name Jews applied to themselves.

I also looked for the time the Jews were driven out of Israel and found mostly bible quotes.

I still don't know what I will say if the subject comes up again.

Two points would help. Knowing when and why Israel ceased to exist and something about Galut.

old reb

[Da Chuckstar]

Originally posted by Adversary2Arabs
With a few major exceptions, eveything European and their colonies and former colonies (IE. Australia, South Africa, etc) all seem to be generally anti-Israel.

And yes, if you're anti-Israel you're pro-Palestinian. There is no nuetrality in this world as I've come to find out. You can say you're nuetral all day long - it doesn't mean you don't support one side more than the other.

Excuse me? How dare you lump in Australia along with other European countries. Australia is nothing like Europe. Our Prime Minister is a good friend of Israel and the Australian Jewish community. Here is an account of his visit to Israel in 2000:

http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2000/256/howisr.html

Next time get your facts straight before opening your mouth. Don't condemn people who are on your side.

[Da Chuckstar]

Here is a short interview with John Howard regarding Israel:

Howard awarded honorary doctorate in Israel
AM Archive - Monday, 1 May , 2000 00:00:00
Reporter: Alexandra Kirk

COMPERE: The Prime Minister, John Howard, currently visiting Israel has been awarded an honorary doctorate for his loyalty to Jewish causes and the Jewish State.

Alexandra Kirk reports from Jerusalem:

ALEXANDRA KIRK: The Prime Minister has for decades been an avid supporter of Jewish people and the State of Israel. He says it all started back in the 1950s as a law student at Sydney University.

JOHN HOWARD: Friendships which have endured to this day and as a very Anglo-Celtic Protestant boy growing up in the suburbs of Sydney, that experience was very special. It exposed me to the breadths and the quality of Jewish life.

ALEXANDRA KIRK: He says the affection he has for Jewish people and Israel will never be diminished.

JOHN HOWARD: No community in the world in recorded human history has suffered as much from intolerance and prejudice and persecution as have the Jewish people.

ALEXANDRA KIRK: Mr Howard's now a member of a rather exclusive club, world leaders who have an honorary doctorate from the Bar-Ilan University in Tel Aviv, people like US Vice-President Al Gore, former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev and five Israeli Prime Ministers.

UNIDENTIFIED: Mr Prime Minister your public statements throughout your political career have demonstrated a firm loyalty to Jewish causes and to the State of Israel.

ALEXANDRA KIRK: On the back of the program for the ceremony was a letter from Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Barak, congratulating him on his award and what came as a surprise to many, praising Mr Howard for initiating Nazi war criminal trials legislation.

While Mr Howard did support the establishment of the War Crimes Unit, it was in fact the Labor Government's initiative. In 1992, Labor closed it down after it failed to mount one successful prosecution.

Timed to coincide with Mr Howard's visit, Effram Zuroff from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Jerusalem is calling for the unit to be re-opened. He says because of Australia's requirement that witnesses appear in person, criminal prosecution is difficult, so the Government should also opt for de-naturalisation and deportation.

EFFRAM ZUROFF: They be deported to the country where the crimes were committed, in most cases - or to Germany. That has not proven to be a problem, neither in the United States nor in Canada. I think that Australia could de-naturalise and deport anywhere between 10 and 15 of these people and in a sense the terrible shame, I think, of Australia's record to date will be changed.

COMPERE: Effram Zuroff from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre.


http://www.abc.net.au/am/s122380.htm

[Alfred]

Originally posted by takeo
I met some old austrian veterans who were still very sorry they lost the war against "those barbarians" (the Russians)

I'm kinda of sorry they lost the war against the Communist Russians too :)


Old-Reb:

I would imagine that Otto would have said the same thing about the Gypsies; which is how he probably thinks of the Jews. Just vagabonds, without a country, causing trouble in the lands they linger in.

I probably would have said that I agree that the USA should have stayed out of the matter....so that Israel could have fried the Arabs by now.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by old-reb
I googled galut and found it to be a name Jews applied to themselves.


Sorry, I thought it is well known.
Galut or galuth (in Hebrew) = diaspora (in Greek) = dispersion. Of course, we are special, so is our diaspora ;p. When it concerns the Jews, it means a whole lot more: pogroms, persecutions, forced conversions, galut mentality, etc.

Israel was an answer for all things "galut". BTW, Hebrew is the only case in history of an ancient language successfully restored for modern use. (I am bragging as if I had something to do with it! But it makes me proud.)


I also looked for the time the Jews were driven out of Israel and found mostly bible quotes.

Two points would help. Knowing when and why Israel ceased to exist and something about Galut.
old reb

Well there was Babylonian exile in 586 BC, then Roman in 136 AD.

AFAIK, the best source: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/timeline.html

More:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=roman+jewish+war


I still don't know what I will say if the subject comes up again.


In addition to what's been already pointed out:
Israel is a tiny democracy besieged by the sea of militant medieval totalitarism...
Israel is millenias-old dream of generations of oppressed people for a national home that finally came true after the tragedy of the Holocaust...
If nothing more, healthy and safe Israel is an insurance for my children as a second or perhaps a first safe home.

Almost every country where Jews lived, has persecuted,expelled or mass murdered them at some point, some more than once. Something today's Europe prefers to forget, conventiently.

Maybe it all sounds pathertic and irrelevant here, but that's what I feel about Otto's remark.

[takeo]

I'm kinda of sorry they lost the war against the Communist Russians too

so this means Hitler's criminals would have occupied most of Russia, deported or shot all the Jews there and made the russians a people of slaves for the German occupier. also without the Russians the us and GB would never have won the war.

I'm a little scared by your remark... please never again claim that you're a friend of the Jewish people... (saying something like that in Russia would be extremely dangerous for your health...)

this confirms my view that the rightwing in Israel and the us is actually much closer to the ultra-rightwing in Europe than they would like to admit.

[old-reb]

Hello Humus_Sapiens,

Thanks for the thoughts and links. I have bookmarked the links; it makes good reading and understanding of history.

Online and in rough settings an emotional response works against such jokes and remarks but in a civilized social setting one must have a lot of knowledge to answer a simple racist joke and statement.

old reb

[Alfred]

Originally posted by takeo
so this means Hitler's criminals would have occupied most of Russia, deported or shot all the Jews there and made the russians a people of slaves for the German occupier. also without the Russians the us and GB would never have won the war.

I'm a little scared by your remark... please never again claim that you're a friend of the Jewish people... (saying something like that in Russia would be extremely dangerous for your health...)

this confirms my view that the rightwing in Israel and the us is actually much closer to the ultra-rightwing in Europe than they would like to admit.

Relax Takeo. That was a joke....thus the smiley face. I said it because I know how much you love the Soviet Empire.

To tell you the truth however, I do not see one bit of difference between a Nazi and a Communist. The Nazi's killed 30 million who did not agree with their philosophy and the Communists have probably killed 100 million for the same crime. In fact, most of the 30 million killed by the Nazis was related to combat. Probably 7 million or so were murdered for "political" reasons. I would be willing to bet that your buddies in the Soviet and Chicom empires have murdered close to 70 million for politics alone.

The Nazi's were selective in who they murdered (Jews, Gypsies et. al), the Commies are equal opportunity killers....they will kill anyone. Which is worse? They are equal in my mind.

If I were a Jew, I would be more afraid of a Nazi. If I were a Conservative, I would fear the Commies more. I am not a Jew but a Conservative....thus my opinion.

[David_in_NYC]

Check this out... these guys started up to mock the anti-Iraq war protests, might be a good outlet for some frustration!

http://www.protestwarrior.com

[David_in_NYC]

Actually, without the Communists the US would have won the war anyway thanks to the fact that we developed nukes. We probably would have had to drop a lot of them on Europe to dislodge Hitler, but it would have been done.

[red crabtree]

Well, reb first of all how have you been? Haven't been around in awhile, busy as a beaver as the saying goes.
To answer the question you asked I had to think about it a bit. Recognizing that you are a southerner in a southern social situation, meaning of course the politeness that is always dictated in such a social setting, the what and how something is said back to this man is important. While I may not live in the south as I've said I was raised by a fully southern dad and good manners were always of the utmost importance. My stepmom used to amaze me with the ability to get across a curt point with never actually being rude, in fact being so polite and mannered while making her point that it took a minute to realize you had just been reprimanded.
So given that bit of context, and if I am wrong please let me know, I would politely let this man know that he has just broken the social edicate of his own social setting. He made other people uncomfortable with his "joke" and then his statement regarding Israel. In polite southern social company that is something akin to a sin yes?
Let me relate something to you. When I was 22 years old with my then 2 year old son I went to Tennessee to visit my dad, stepmom and step siblings. My stepmom's sister and her husband came over for dinner one night while we were there. Aunt Kooky's(a wonderful nickname for a wonderful woman) husband started talking about how they weren't prejudiced in the south anymore. This conversation was primarily for my benefit. Well for me and my 15 year old sister who had also flown down with me to visit. Us being northerners and all. Mind you this was some 18 years ago. This man went on and on about how they didn't mind them "niggers" in the south anymore. Why they'd let them into the schools now, course the quality of education had come down because of it since they weren't too bright and things had to be taught at their level. And why black men were dating and marrying white women and no one made a fuss about it anymore, course you knew that those white women were nothing but white trash anyway so what could be helped for it and this went on for probably half an hour. My sister and myself were so uncomfortable that it was palpable in the air, yet this ignorant idiot couldn't feel it. Everyone else could and the looks around the table began to take on a frantic appearance. Finally my stepmom stood up from the table and pointedly ignoring this man droning on, asked my sister and I if we would like to take some tea in the back yard under the gazebo. Both my sister and I were grateful as hell to have an out. In any other situation I would have very forcefully stated my views back to this man that not only had upset me but actually made me embarrassed to be sitting at the same table as him. However, being in a household where manners reigned and it would have embarrassed my dad had I blurted out what I wanted to, I kept my mouth shut.
However one pointed comment from my stepmom made the point fairly clear. Her comment was it wasn't just poor white trash that was ignorant. That was all she said and she then went on to some light conversation. I could almost see this man shake his head yes, until the light bulb went on that she was talking about him and not the blacks he was disparaging. My sister and I excused ourselves from the table and went outside, where we "took" some incredibly sweet tea, and laughed about the look on the face of the offender when he realized that mama had just called him ignorant.
So I guess my advice would be to use that expected southern good manners in such a way that you are able to get your point across without being offensive. Yes, you could say "sure if the US didn't interfere then Israel would have fried the Arabs" as someone else noted. However in the southern polite way I would suggest "How right you are! If the US quite interfering we would have no further problem in the middle East particularly from terrorism, since then Israel would own the Middle East!" Then you could smile and shake his hand. You would know what you were saying, he would know exactly what you were saying and that you deliberately miscontued what he meant, however if he maintains the southern gentleman image in the social setting, he is not likely to do much but smile back and grit his teeth. Your point will have been made, and in such a way that good manners are maintained by all. You will have politely and subtlely let him know where you stand and hopefully it is a subject he will not broach again IF he respects your feelings as much as you respect his.
Now I may be all wet here, just going by the way I was raised in the area of manners by a southern gentleman.

[takeo]

But what if Germany devellopped them first????????????? (which was certainly possible, they also had exquisid scientists) :eek:

Relax Takeo. That was a joke....thus the smiley face. I said it because I know how much you love the Soviet Empire.

well this aren't issues to make jokes about, as one doesn't make jokes either about the holocaust...


To tell you the truth however, I do not see one bit of difference between a Nazi and a Communist. The Nazi's killed 30 million who did not agree with their philosophy and the Communists have probably killed 100 million for the same crime. In fact, most of the 30 million killed by the Nazis was related to combat. Probably 7 million or so were murdered for "political" reasons. I would be willing to bet that your buddies in the Soviet and Chicom empires have murdered close to 70 million for politics alone.

that's bullocks, i know a lot about soviet-history. During Stalin's time as secretary a lot of innocents have been convicted because each regional government had "quotas" of a certain number of "contra-revolutionaries". However recent documents reveiled by Russian historians show that "only" a few 100's of 1000's of people have been shot for political reasons or condemned to forced labour in siberia or northern russia during the 30's (the worst period of political repression). most victims were high shots in the communist party and the army (mostly the ones who were also officers in the tsarist army, considered unreliable by Stalin) and kulaks (landlords refusing to participate in the collectivisation).
I'm not going to defend all this, and stalin has been denounced in 1956 by Khrustchev. however for many soviet-citizens he remains some kind of a hero because his policy led to the industrialisation of the soviet-union. I recently went to Georgia and it's really amasing how popular this man still is... (also because capitalism wasn't really a great succes...)


If I were a Jew, I would be more afraid of a Nazi. If I were a Conservative, I would fear the Commies more. I am not a Jew but a Conservative....thus my opinion

well perhaps that might be true...

[Mediocrates]

The Ukranian Kulak collecivist famines of the 30's killed millions.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by red crabtree

So I guess my advice would be to use that expected southern good manners in such a way that you are able to get your point across without being offensive. Yes, you could say "sure if the US didn't interfere then Israel would have fried the Arabs" as someone else noted. However in the southern polite way I would suggest "How right you are! If the US quite interfering we would have no further problem in the middle East particularly from terrorism, since then Israel would own the Middle East!" Then you could smile and shake his hand. You would know what you were saying, he would know exactly what you were saying and that you deliberately miscontued what he meant, however if he maintains the southern gentleman image in the social setting, he is not likely to do much but smile back and grit his teeth. Your point will have been made, and in such a way that good manners are maintained by all. You will have politely and subtlely let him know where you stand and hopefully it is a subject he will not broach again IF he respects your feelings as much as you respect his.
Now I may be all wet here, just going by the way I was raised in the area of manners by a southern gentleman.

Hello Redcrabtree,
I guess you have busy nursing the sick to health. Take care of your own health too.
You post adds to my understanding. In the North there would be no problem getting in his face and getting it on with an argument. Even in the South there should be no problem but in a setting like your family home or our dance club a person must be on best behavior even if another person gets a little out of line.

I like your answer too. It seems like I am making a big deal off a few racist jokes but everyone can do a little to prevent racism.

Strangly Muslims preach racism against others but fight racism against themselves. In the South we call that having your cake and eating it too. Only a Southerner would understand that.

old reb

[takeo]

The Ukranian Kulak collecivist famines of the 30's killed millions.

that's a disputed figure. kulaks were only a small percentage of farmers, as you might know slavery was only abandoned in the late 19th century so by the time of the revolution most farmers were still living in medieval conditions without any possesion at all, only some managed to become kulaks, and those of course were the fiercest opponents of collectivisation (the noblety was already eliminated or banned during the civil war, most fled to France or Germany). they reacted by killing their animals and harvest, but since they were only a minority it didn't cause widespread famine. what happened however was that the kulaks and the villages who supported them had to give everything and didn't receive anything in return, this caused famine in those villages, so a deliberate policy of famine as punishment, which indeed is criminal. However the nazi's abused this fact to spread lies about widespread famine which simply wasn't true. this rumours first appeared in the nazi-controlled press in Germany and have never been verified. one thing is for sure: the nazi's had very few sympathisers in the Ukrain, most ukrainians joined the communist guerilla, certainly not only Jews, and this would have been impossible if the ukrain would have suffered on a massive scale during the 30's.

[Mediocrates]

History has already determined you are wrong.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by takeo
...However the nazi's abused this fact to spread lies about widespread famine which simply wasn't true. this rumours first appeared in the nazi-controlled press in Germany and have never been verified. one thing is for sure: the nazi's had very few sympathisers in the Ukrain, most ukrainians joined the communist guerilla, certainly not only Jews, and this would have been impossible if the ukrain would have suffered on a massive scale during the 30's.

Actually, at first the Ukrainians welcomed the Nazi invaders as liberators. It was only after they saw that the Nazis planned a whole new round of mass murder that they began fighting them.

[takeo]

Actually, at first the Ukrainians welcomed the Nazi invaders as liberators. It was only after they saw that the Nazis planned a whole new round of mass murder that they began fighting them.

that is incorrect, only a small percentage of ultra-nationalistic and anti-semitic Ukrainians joined the nazi's in the city of Lvov( without mentioning that they had been threated accordingly after the war, not exactly according to the conventions of Geneva...), while the large portions of the population immidiately vanished in the woods to start the resistance, this was one of the reasons why Hitler's policy of "divide and rule" collapsed.

[red crabtree]

Ukraine - In the 1930's the Soviet Union sought to destroy Ukrainian nationalism and confiscate the land and property of the people. Stalin achieved his objective through genocide by creating a man-made-famine that resulted in 7 million deaths. During WWII, between Russian and Nazi occupations, internment, enslavement and murder, another 14.5 million Ukrainians perished. This horrendous toll is the highest suffered by any European people during the war.

And for an event that did not exist, this from the Ukraine

REMEMBERING THE GREAT FAMINE
EDITORIAL
The Ukrainian Weekly
November 12, 2000, No. 46, Vol. LXVIII



Last year, 1,500 Ukrainian Americans in New York demonstrated that they would never forget the Great Famine-Genocide of 1932-1933 that killed between 7 million and 10 million in Ukraine in 1932-1933. They walked in a solemn procession from St. George Ukrainian Catholic Church in Lower Manhattan to St. Patrick's Cathedral uptown, where their numbers doubled and a requiem service was offered in memory of the genocide's victims. It was a visual expression of our community's remembrance of the Ukrainian nation's greatest tragedy - and of our resolve to increase the general public's awareness of this little-known genocide.

This famine, you see, was not a natural disaster, but an atrocity orchestrated by Stalin and his henchmen to destroy a nation using the most heinous of methods: food as a weapon. For decades the Soviets and their fellow travelers - sad to say, some of them from the West - covered up the Famine. Then, when the cover-up was uncovered, they attempted to portray information about the "Velykyi Holod" (Great Famine) as "anti-Soviet propaganda" and hysteria drummed up by "Nazi collaborators," thus attempting to discredit their detractors.

Ultimately the truth is triumphing. Today there are few who question the fact that the Great Famine occurred. However, there are many who remain ignorant of this tragic episode of history.

That is why it is important that we, Ukrainians around the world, each year observe a Famine Remembrance Day. We must mourn and make it clear that we will never forget. We must manifest our strong conviction that this kind of genocide can never again be allowed to happen. We must see to it that others know the truth - for it is the truth that can prevent such atrocities. We must pledge to continue to speak out about the Great Famine - for silence was one of the principal reasons this murderous act of Stalin and his collaborators in crimes against humanity was so successful.

Our community's first annual public commemoration of the Famine-Genocide came in 1998, on the occasion of the 65th anniversary of the Great Famine. In 1999 President Leonid Kuchma of Ukraine issued a decree proclaiming a National Day of Remembrance of Famine Victims. Ukrainians around the world followed suit and designated special days of mourning.

This year, Famine Remembrance Day in the United States is on November 18. Again a memorial service is scheduled for St. Patrick's Cathedral. Though many are sure to arrive in New York City for this significant annual commemoration, there is no reason that other communities located far from the metropolitan New York area cannot hold their own solemn observances on the same day. What is needed is a nationwide, indeed, a worldwide day that is designated to annually recall the Great Famine of 1932-1933 in Ukraine.

It is our solemn obligation as Ukrainians to speak out in remembrance of the Famine's victims and to continually bear witness to this genocide of our nation.



Now for holocaust documentation from the SOVIET UNION, German papers confiscated by the Red Army and not released to the West until recently. My apologies to the Jewish people on this board for posting this because of the frank and dispassionate way this is documented. However I found it necessary to combat someone who obviously has been taken in by revisionist history.


From a Report by Einsatzgruppen on the Extermination of the Jews in the Ukraine, October 1941


Operations and Situation Report No. 6 by the Einsatzgruppen

of the Security Police and SD in the U.S.S.R.

(for the period October 1-31, 1941)

...c) Jews

The bitter hostility of the Ukrainian population against the Jews is extremely great, because it is thought that they were responsible for the explosions in Kiev. They are also seen as NKVD informers and agents, who unleashed the terror against the Ukrainian people. All Jews were arrested in retaliation for the arson in Kiev, and altogether 33,771 Jews were executed on September 29th and 30th. Gold, valuables and clothing were collected and put at the disposal of the National-Socialist Welfare Association (NSV), for the equipment of the Volksdeutsche, and part given to the appointed city administration for distribution to the needy population.
( For clarification for those not familiar with this history, the NKVD was the Soviet Secret police-The propoganda of the Nazi's tied Jews to the NKVD. The massacre that is referenced here was done at a ravine called Babi Yar. All references regarding Babi Yar note the Ukrainine collaborators who not only acted as guards while the murders were occuring, but also their role in putting out flyers and posters instructing Jews to come to the area. More of Babi Yar below)


Schitomir

In Schitomir 3,145 Jews had to be shot, because experience showed that they must be considered as bearers of Bolshevist propaganda and saboteurs.

Cherson

In Cherson 410 Jews were executed in retaliation for acts of sabotage.

The solution of the Jewish question in the area east of the Dnjpr in particular has been firmly attached by the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the SD. The areas newly occupied by the commandos were cleared of Jews. In the course of this action 4,891 Jews were liquidated. In other localities the Jews were marked and registered. This made it possible to put at the disposal of Wehrmacht offices Jewish worker groups of up to 1,000 persons for urgent work....


From a Wehrmacht Report on the Extermination of the Jews in the Ukraine


December 2, 1941

Armament in the Ukraine

Inspector

Secret

To

The Office of Wi Rue [Industrial Armament Department]

OKW [High Command of the Wehrmacht]

General of the Infantry Thomas

Berlin

...c. The Jewish Question

The settling of the Jewish Question in the Ukraine has been made more difficult because in the cities the Jews constituted a major part of the population. What we have here is therefore, just as in the Government-General, a massive population policy problem. Many cities had more than 50 percent Jews. Only the rich Jews fled before the German troops. The great majority of the Jewish masses remained under the German Administration. The entire situation was complicated by the fact that these Jews carried out almost all the work in the skilled trades and even provided part of the labor for small- and medium-sized industries; apart from trade, some of which had become superfluous as a result of the direct or indirect effects of the war. [Their] elimination was therefore bound to have profound economic consequences, including even direct effects on the military economy (supplies for troops).

From the outset the attitude of the Jewish population was anxious-willing. They tried to avoid anything that might displease the German Administration. That they hated the German Administration and the Army in their hearts is obvious and not surprising. However, there is no evidence that the Jews, either as a body, or even in any considerable numbers, have taken part in sabotage, etc. Without doubt there have been some terrorists or saboteurs among them, just as there have been among the Ukrainians. But it cannot be claimed that the Jews as such present any kind of danger for the German Wehrmacht. The troops and the German Administration have been satisfied with the work output of the Jews, who are of course motivated by no emotion except fear.

Immediately following the military operations, the Jewish population remained undisturbed at first. It was only weeks, in some cases months, later that systematic shooting of the Jews was carried out by units of the Order Police specially set up for this purpose. This Aktion moved in the main from east to west. It was carried out entirely in public, with the assistance of Ukrainian militia; in many cases, regrettably, also with the voluntary participation of members of the Wehrmacht. These Aktionen included aged men, women, and children of all ages, and the manner in which they were carried out was appalling. The gigantic number of executions involved in this Aktion is far greater than any similar measure undertaken in the Soviet Union up to now. Altogether about 150,000 to 200,000 Jews may have been executed in this section of the Ukraine belonging to the RK [Reichskommissariat]; up to now no consideration was given to the interests of the economy.

To sum up it could be said that the solution of the Jewish Question as carried out in the Ukraine, evidently motivated by ideological principles, has had the following consequences:

a) Elimination of some, in part superfluous, eaters in the cities.

b) Elimination of a part of the population which undoubtedly hated us.

c) Elimination of urgently needed craftsmen, who were in many cases indispensable for the requirements of the Wehrmacht.

d) Consequences in connection with foreign propaganda that are obvious.

e) Adverse effects on troops which in any case have indirect contact with executions.

f) Brutalizing effects on the units (Order Police) which carry out the executions....

(The further executions spoke about here took place also at Babi Yar, it is important to note that Ukrainian milita took part)

[red crabtree]

continued

Roesler, Major
presently Kassel, January 3, 1942

Report

The notification from the Infantry Reserve Regiment 52 concerning "Conduct with regard to the Civilian Population in the East" causes me to submit the following report:

Towards the end of July 1941, I.R. [Infantry Regiment] 528, of which I was in command, was on its way from the West to Schitomir, where it was to move into a rest camp. On the day of our arrival, in the afternoon, when I had moved into the Staff Quarters together with my Staff, we heard salvoes of rifle fire at regular intervals, fired at no great distance, and followed by pistol shots after a little while. I decided to investigate this matter and with my Adjutant and Ordnance Officer (First Lieutenant v. Bassewitz and Lt. Mueller-Brodmann) set out in the direction of the rifle fire. We soon received the impression that some cruel show must be taking place here because after a while we saw numerous soldiers and civilians streaming towards a railway embankment in front of us; we were informed that executions were being carried out continuously behind it. Throughout this time we were unable to see across the railway embankment to the other side, but at regular intervals we heard the sound of a trilling whistle and then a salvo of about 10 rifle shots, followed after a certain interval by pistol shots. When we finally climbed up the railway embankment a sight was revealed to us on the other side of a horrible cruelty that was bound to shake and disgust anyone who came face to face with it unprepared. A pit had been cut in the ground, about 4 m. wide and 7-8 m. long, and the excavated earth had been piled up on one side. This mound and the side of the pit beneath it were stained all over with streams of blood. The pit itself was filled with human corpses of all kinds and both sexes in such numbers that it was difficult to estimate them; it was not possible to judge the depth of the pit. Behind the mound of excavated earth a Police Commando was lined up with a Police Officer in command. The uniforms of the commandos were stained with blood. In a wide circle stood countless soldiers of troop units already stationed there, some as spectators, dressed in swimming trunks, as well as many civilians with women and children. I stepped right up to the pit to obtain a picture that I have not been able to forget until this day. Among others there was an old man with a long white beard lying in the grave, with a little walking stick still hooked over his left arm. As this man still gave signs of life by his stertorous breathing, I requested one of the policemen to kill him off, but he answered with a laugh: "I fired seven shots into his belly, hell croak on his own." The persons who had been shot were not placed in the grave in any order, but stayed there lying as they had fallen from the wall of the pit after they were shot. All these persons had been killed by shots in the back of the neck and then finished off with pistol shots from the top. I did not acquire any excessive sensitivity of the emotions during my service in the World War and in the French and Russian campaigns of this war; and experienced much that was more than unpleasant when I was active in the volunteer units in 1919, but I cannot recall ever having witnessed a scene such as that I have described here. I am not concerned here with whatever court decisions may have formed the basis for the executions I have described, I felt it was not reconcilable with our concepts of custom and decency up to the present time and that a mass slaughter of human beings should be carried out quite publicly, as on an outdoor stage. I wish to add that according to statements by soldiers who frequently watch these executions, several hundreds of persons were said to be shot every day.

Prestupnye tseli-Prestupnye sredstva. Dokumenty ob okkupatsionnoy politike fashistskoy Germanii na territorii SSSR, 1941-1944 ("Criminal Aims Criminal Means Documents on Occupational Policy of Fascist Germany in the Territory of the USSR, 1941-1944"), Moscow, 1968, pp. 110-111.

(Please note that the executions here were also at Bari Yar-later this area became a camp named Syrets Camp so called from a nearby Kiev neighborhood. Thouands of Jews from the Ukraine were brought here for the final solution. The director was Paul Von Radomski

It is important to realize that Ukrainine Nationalist Battalions were trained in Germany prior to the invasion of Poland in 1939. In 1941 the Nachtigall and Roland Battalions of Ukrainine Nationalists participated in the invasions of the Ukraine. After the occupation of the Ukraine nearly 300,000 red army POW's were released and according to Soviet documents 96% of them were of Ukrainine descent, German documents make it clear that Russian descent POW's were not eligible for release. Many of these released POWs were rearmed and enlisted in the Polizei, or ancillary police. They were armed and paid by the Germans, as well as given special caps and armbands to signify their authority. These ancillary police were involved with the massacre of Jews that took place in Berdichev Ukraine. When the Germans invaded some 20,000 Jews lived here. By the end of the war 15 had survived.
While I am not willing to paint all of the Ukrainines as mass murderers or Nazi's, to deny that collarboration on a fairly large scale took place is wrong. To deny that Ukraine Nationalists looked at the Nazi's as their saviors from the Soviets is wrong also. Many did. Much of the collarboration that took place was covered up by the Soviets as it would put the wrong look on an empire that wished to have the world see it and it's "people" as united against the hated Nazi aggressor's. As I said much of the evidence on this has only in the last few years been released by Russia.

[red crabtree]

Report by Waffen SS on Killing of Jews in the Pripet Marshes


Regt. st. Qtrs., Aug. 12, 1941

22nd SS-Cavalry Regiment

Mounted Unit

Report

On the Course of the Aktion

in the Pripet [Marshes]

from July 27 to August 11, 1941

Impressions of the battle: None

Population: Mainly Ukrainian; Byelorussians in second place; in third place Poles and Russians; only a very few of the latter. The Jews are mainly in the larger places, where they make up a high percentage of the population, in some cases from 50-80 percent, but in others as little as 25 percent....

In many cases when the troops moved in we found that, according to a Ukrainian practice, a table with a white cloth had been prepared with bread and salt that was offered to the commanders. In one case there was even a small band of musicians to welcome the troops....

Type of land: The whole area consists of large marshes interspersed with patches of sand, so that the ground is not very fertile. There are some better places, but others were all the poorer....

...Jewish doctors were preferred. In the towns and villages it was also noticeable that only Jewish artisans were found. There was a large number of Jewish émigrés from the Altreich [Germany before 1938] and the Ostmark [Austria]....

Pacification: Pacification was carried out through the commanders of units or companies who contacted the local mayors and discussed all matters concerning the population. On these occasions the numbers and composition of the population, i.e., Ukrainians, Byelorussians, etc., were checked. Further, whether there were still Communists in the locality or secret members of the Red Army, or others who had been active Bolsheviks. In most cases local residents also reported that they had seen gangs or other suspicious persons. Where such individuals were still in the locality, they were detained and, after a brief interrogation, they were either released or shot....

Jewish looters were shot. Only a few skilled workers employed in the Wehrmacht repair workshops were permitted to remain.

The driving of women and children into the marshes did not have the expected success, because the marshes were not so deep that one could sink. After a depth of about a meter there was in most cases solid ground (probably sand) preventing complete sinking....

...The Ukrainian clergy were very cooperative and made themselves available for every Aktion.
It was also conspicuous that in general the population was on good terms with the Jewish sector of the population. Nevertheless they helped energetically in rounding up the Jews. The locally recruited guards, who consisted in part of Polish police and former Polish soldiers, made a good impression. They operated energetically and took part in the fight against looters....

The total number of looters, etc., shot by the Mounted Units was 6,526....

signed Magill
The Wehrmacht and the Einsatzgruppen Aktionen, September 1941


High Command

Army Group South

Ic/AO (Abw. III)

H.Q., September 24, 1941

Re: The Struggle against Elements Hostile to the Reich



The investigation of and struggle against tendencies and elements hostile to the Reich (Communists, Jews, etc.), insofar as they are not a part of a hostile military force is, in the occupied areas, exclusively the task of the Sonderkommando (Special Unit) of the Security Police and the SD, which will take the necessary measures on their own responsibility and carry them out.

Individual actions by members of the Wehrmacht or participation by members of the Wehrmacht in excesses by the Ukrainian population against the Jews is forbidden; they are also forbidden to watch or take photographs of measures taken by the Sonderkommando.

This prohibition is to be made known to the members of all units. [Commanders] in charge of discipline at all levels are responsible for the implementation of this prohibition. In the event of breaches it is to be investigated in every case whether the commander failed to carry out his duty of supervision, and when necessary he is to be severely punished.

signed von Rundstedt

Distribution:

AOK (Intelligence Command), PzGr (Tank Group)

Bef rueckw H (Rear Command)

Befehlsstelle Sued (Southern Command)

Abt. des Stabes u. Wach-Kp. (Staff Dept. and Guard Companies)

Nachr.: Luftlotte (info: Air Force)

NOKW-541.

Why would this memo be necessary if there were not "excesses" committed by Ukrainine people?
SS Sturmbannfuehrer