Transfer is the only hope for an end to war

[David_in_NYC]

The ultimate responsibility for the continuation of war with the PLO in Israel rests on the shoulders of the Israeli government.

By relying on half-measures, and committing historical errors, the Israeli government has allowed the losing side of the 1948 War of Independence to remain on the battlefield. Thus, a committed enemy, not completely defeated, believes itself to remain in the fight.

And so, the carnage goes on, due to the failure of the Israeli government to pursue policy consistent with its responsibility to defend the lives of the citizens of Israel.

Let us first set the record straight on the territories in question. These disputed territories are not 'occupied' in the sense that they are owned by the Arabs but ruled by Israel. These territories are rightfully part of Israel as a result of the 1967 war. The people in those lands, having had ample opportunity to pursue peace, forfeited the right to remain there by the choice to attack the Israelis. This is historically correct, consistent with other nations' acquisition of territory after a successful defensive war, such as the French acquisition of Alsace-Lorraine, the Russian control of the Japanese half of Sahkarin Island after WW2, the United States capture of its southwest in the Mexican-American War. Historically, the victorious nation has the right to annex the territory it deems necessary to its future defense, and the power to see it happen in fact.

The policy of negotiating with the PLO is a farce that has dragged on for too long and taken the lives of too many people not responsible for the problem. It wrongfully condemns the other side to an indefinite state of despair and poverty. Israel needs to act unilaterally to save both its own people and the Arabs ruled by the PLO.

Thus, transfer of the noncitizen population is essential to any long-term solution for either party.



Let it be proposed, then, that:

(1) The non-citizen population of Judea and Samaria be moved to Jordan, excepting only those villages, towns, and cities with no history of making war against Israel, whose remaining residents shall be extended the rights and priveleges of Israeli citizens.

(2) That the noncitizen population of Gaza be moved likewise to Egypt.

(3) The United Nations refugee camps are to be destroyed completely, and the United Nations shall be evicted in total from the land of Israel.

(4) Jordan and Egypt respectively shall be considered the only legitimate representatives of the transferred population.

(5) Jordan and Egypt shall be supplied with US $15 billion (US $10,000 per man, woman, and child) to settle and build infrastructure for their new citizens.


This is the only solution with a hope for positive future for all involved. It's time the Israeli government faced historical reality and moved to end this ongoing tragedy.

[abu afak]

"Transfer - Get Used to It"

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=1975

12 pages, 176 Replies, articles, and comments..

(Now on page 2 of the Israel- Arab Conflict Section
http://www.israelforum.com/board/forumdisplay.php3?s=&forumid=7&daysprune=1000&sortorder=&sortfield=lastpost&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

You're new and would have missed it.. enjoy the reading David.)

[Canajew]

But this wouldn't really END the conflict, would it? It would just move the front lines a little.

[old-reb]

The war will end when Muslims stop preaching hatred and destruction for non-Muslims.

Christians in Islamic lands are treated very poorly or murdered while Muslims in Western nations demand the right to freedom to preach hate of their host nation.
When will the world wake up?

old reb

[Alfred]

Originally posted by David_in_NYC
question. These disputed territories are not 'occupied' in the sense that they are owned by the Arabs but ruled by Israel. These territories are rightfully part of Israel as a result of the 1967 war.


The only problem with using that justification for occupying the West Bank is that things that are lost in war can be re-taken. So how can you blame the Pals for trying to take back what was lost in war?

The Germans tried to take back Alsace-Lorraine, and would have succeded had we not been so stupid as to liberate France (I couldn't resist).

Japan is too weak to take back their land but will someday.

The Mexicans are too weak to take back their land by force, but are using other methods....successfully. If this reconquista ever becomes a shooting war then we will have a Civil War, as many of the Mexican-Americans or illegals in the southwest will not take the American side.

Sounds similar to the Israeli/Pal problem.

[old-reb]

If the Arab govenrments had of been kind to the Jews there would be no need for a Israel but all over the world the Jews have been slaughtered by sick despot leaders but now Israel has it's own country and army to protect it's citizens a that makes one billion Muslims and one Alford very angry.

The Jews wall themselves and push out the palestines because it is the only way to see the light of the next day. Pals are taught everyday to hate and kill Jews. In most civilized nations the teaching of racial hatred is illegal.

Israel would like nothing more than to have the Palestines as friends and business partners but Islamic teachings will not allow that.

old reb

[David_in_NYC]

The reason why my proposal will end the war is that once the Arabs in the disputed territories are citizens of Jordan and Egypt, those governments can be held accountable for their actions. They, unlike the PA, are deterrable, because they have a lot to lose; and they, unlike the PA, can be held accountable if they let their citizens murder Israeli citizens. In addition, much of the impetus behind the attacks on Israel is the perception of Israel's vulnerability; with defensible borders and strategic depth, Israel will no longer be an easy target.

Just today, another Arafat youth murdered a 6-month-old child and her father.

I remind you all of Leviticus Ch. 18 and its repeated denunciation of child sacrifice. By refusing to properly deal with the situation, Israel is sacrificing its children to Molech, in his various guises of the U.N., the Arab world, the EU, and the Arabist U.S. State Department.

It is no wonder why God is punishing Israel - He has made clear that child sacrifice is the most abhorrent of crimes.

How many more murdered children will it take for Israel to defend itself?

[old-reb]

Originally posted by David_in_NYC


How many more murdered children will it take for Israel to defend itself?

That is easy to say when you live in New York City.

Even Bush's hands are tied on the issuse of the wall by laws set up from Clintons day.

old reb

[Canajew]

Originally posted by Alfred
The only problem with using that justification for occupying the West Bank is that things that are lost in war can be re-taken. So how can you blame the Pals for trying to take back what was lost in war?


How you get from your premise to your conclusion is anyone's guess and while indicative of the logic employed by the Plaestinians and their supporters it in no way constitutes a rational thought or a valid inference. Israel gained sovereign control over gaza and the WB in the course of a defensive war to protect itself from a 'war of extermination' (nasser's words, not mine) launched against it by hostile foreign powers. Egypt closed the straits of tiran (an act of war) and Israel, before attacking Jordan, was repeatedly attacked by Jordanian airplanes and absorbed more than Six THOUSAND shells launched by Jordan into Israeli population centres.

Israel never 're-took' the lands, it wrested control of them from a hostile foreign power in a defensive action. The message would be exactly the opposite of what you infer - that aggression to capture territory will in no be appeased, and waging aggressive wars may imply a loss of sovereign control over some territory - at least as much as is necessary to ensure the attacked state that such aggression will not be repeated.


The Germans tried to take back Alsace-Lorraine, and would have succeded had we not been so stupid as to liberate France (I couldn't resist).

Japan is too weak to take back their land but will someday.

The Mexicans are too weak to take back their land by force, but are using other methods....successfully. If this reconquista ever becomes a shooting war then we will have a Civil War, as many of the Mexican-Americans or illegals in the southwest will not take the American side.

Sounds similar to the Israeli/Pal problem. [/B]

This is too fololish to comment on. It is indicative of greater problems, I would suspect.

[David_in_NYC]

Originally posted by old-reb
That is easy to say when you live in New York City.

Even Bush's hands are tied on the issuse of the wall by laws set up from Clintons day.

old reb

We have our victims of Islamic murder too. I personally was in the WTC in the 1993 attack, so don't act like because I am in the U.S. I am not in the line of fire. I sure as heck am in the line of fire, and I survived Islamofascist murderes twice in 8 1/2 years.

Unlike Israel, we are not pretending that Osama and his ilk want peace with us. We are slow to anger, but once roused, nothing will stop the eradication of the enemy until we get unconditional surrender.

Neither is the U.S. reacting viscerally or emotionally. The elimination of totalitarian regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq are just a prelude of what is to come - the wholesale reformation and liberalization of the Islamic world.

As we are demonstrating, it is not appeasement that makes the enemy stop killing. It is the destruction of the enemy, the undeniable defeat, that will end this war, as it was in Germany and Japan in 1945.

Israel's illusion that the world might work differently than the entirety of human history suggests is a delusion supported by the blood of innocent Israelis.

[Patriot]

Originally posted by Alfred
The only problem with using that justification for occupying the West Bank is that things that are lost in war can be re-taken. So how can you blame the Pals for trying to take back what was lost in war?

You seem to forget that the territories Israel liberated in 1967 were taken from Egypt and Jordan, not from the Pals.
In fact, never, in the history of mankind, there were any "Palestinian Territories"...

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Patriot

In fact, never, in the history of mankind, there were any "Palestinian Territories"...

More info please

old reb

[Patriot]

Originally posted by old-reb
More info please

old reb

Go to any history book, and see if you can find a "Palestinian People" or a "Palestinian State" in any point in history.
Where is this so-called "Palestinian People" which has been robbed of a state on June 5th 1967?

It does not exist!

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by Patriot
Go to any history book, and see if you can find a "Palestinian People" or a "Palestinian State" in any point in history.
Where is this so-called "Palestinian People" which has been robbed of a state on June 5th 1967?

It does not exist!

The TRULY hysterical part, which the dreadful, awful media and the arab defenders dont mention - or perhaps dont evn know - is that the arabs themselves in the WB and Gaza strip called themselves "Southern Syrians" until the mid-to late 1960s. There wasnt even a group of people called palestinians until arafat the terrorist dog created this idea, as he has fabricated and manufactured so many other things.

Even better, the WB and Gaza - even in the mainstream media - were called Judea and Samaria until recently. Both fabrications are proof of the nazi lie campaign that if you repeat a lie often enough, the intellectually feeble media will accept it as truth.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by David_in_NYC
I personally was in the WTC in the 1993 attack, so don't act like because I am in the U.S. I am not in the line of fire. I sure as heck am in the line of fire, and I survived Islamofascist murderes twice in 8 1/2 years.



Hello David,

I would like to hear your story about wtc and other attacks.

old reb

[Mediocrates]

Middle East Newsline

Friday, October 03, 2003

PA LAUNCHES CRACKDOWN ON ISRAELI COLLABORATORS GAZA CITY [MENL] --

The Palestinian Authority has launched another crackdown on suspected collaborators of Israel.

PA sources said security agencies have arrested dozens of suspected Israeli collaborators over the last two weeks in wake of a series of Israeli attacks on Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives. The sources said the agencies were ordered to stop what they termed the increasing cooperation by Palestinians with Israel's military and intelligence agencies.

The arrests were mostly of Palestinians in Gaza City and in refugee camps in the strip, the sources said. They said the Palestinian detainees were accused of being in cellular and other contact with Israeli security agents and were entrusted with gathering information on Hamas leaders.

PA security agencies have determined a widespread Israeli intelligence network in Gaza City and other major Palestinian cities in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. The sources said the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were drawn to the Israeli network by the prospect of money and official permits to work in Israel or travel to the West Bank.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by old-reb
More info please

old reb

Once upon a time, in 1919, the League of Nations created states in an area that was 4 big provinces of the Ottoman Empire. They created Egyt, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, etc... and they acknowledge the historical link with the Jews and the state of Israel. They therefor specify that the Mandate of Palestine will be use to recreate the Jewish National Home. This area which had the border of historical palestine (and not biblical) included Trans-Jordan (now Jordan) the Golan (now in Syria) and all of the territory west of the Jordan river.

In 1921 the british created an EXCLUSIVE (ie they stopped the jew living there) partition, 76% of palestine, for the arabs. But instead of giving it to the arab living in the mandate they gave it to the Hashemites (of Arabia). then they gave the Golan to the French Mandate of Syria to settle dispute with the French over the holy land.

In 1949 the UN broked a cease fire between the arabs (not the palestinian) and the Jews. What is refered as the "67 border" is not a border but the armistice line of the cease fire. Jordan annexed it the year after, there was no "occupation", no "palestinian". Until 1967 where the Jews liberated these territories from the illegal annexation of Jordan. Then their was "palestine" but until Jordan gave up claim of those territories 1989 no UN resolution ever mentionned the Palestinian - those territories have always been disputed with Jordan under UN Resolution 242.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Middle East Newsline

Friday, October 03, 2003

PA LAUNCHES CRACKDOWN ON ISRAELI COLLABORATORS GAZA CITY [MENL] --

It is obvious that the Israelis mistranslated in arabic to Arafat who he should crack down on :D

[old-reb]

Arafat is and has always been a pathological liar and a murder but his crimes are widely approved and accepted by one billion people who agree with his crimes against Dhimmitude.

I have just been reading about the Muslim conquest of the middle east. The Jews and Christians were there first but Muslims used Jihad and Dhimmitude to lock in their hold on the land.

Reading about Dhimmitude and thinking of Nazi Germany I see the Germans making Dhimmitude on Jews ie;
wearing armband of ID and being placed in a lower order where they are expected to disappear. At least the Muslims gave the Jews an option of survival if they converted but the Nazis just wanted them all dead.

I have no sympathy for Palestines because they have the choice of living in peace with Israel and still keeping their own religion but they offer the Jews only death or conversion.

old reb

[David_in_NYC]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hello David,

I would like to hear your story about wtc and other attacks.

old reb

February 1993 - It was my second day on the job, on the 49th floor of WTC tower 2. I was working in the windowless file room of a subsidiary of the Marsh & McLennan insurance company. I was 19 years old at the time, and this was my first job in a big company.

There were 8 people who were working with me on a file conversion project, in the same room. It was just 15 minutes before my scheduled lunchtime, and I was happily re-labeling files as I was instructed to do, and listening to Soundgarden on my headphones, as I was instructed not to do.

The lights flickered, and all the computers reset themselves. I pulled off my headphones, and the girl working closest to me looked at me with surprise on her face, and said "Did you hear that?" I hadn't heard it. Our initial presumption was that a helicopter hit the building - not a common experience, but something plausible, considering we worked in one of the tallest buildings in the world, in a city with more air traffic than any other. I immediately thought of the story about the B-25 that once hit the Empire State building.

We were called out to one of the outer rooms by security, who told us, no less than 5 minutes after the blast, that the building was bombed, and to wait for instructions on how to evacuate. I saw all the guys in suits and briefcases head right for the stairwell, and I wasn't about to stay behind like an idiot and die should the building collapse with me in it.

We all filed into the stairwell, which was completely dark save for the light filtering in from an occasional open door on the way. We were three to a stair, about 30 stairs to a floor, packed like sardines, and making a slow descent in the dark. People came in from the floors below and above, filling the stairwell.

It was a surreal experience. One could visually observe waves of fear ripple through the crowd as we heard reports of fires, smelled more and more smoke, and saw hallways filled with smoke through open doors as we descended, with brutal slowness. Every so often, one person would freak out - to be immediately comforted and consoled by all those around him or her. There was a constant interplay of fear and hope during the long, slow descent. No one knew whether we would burn in fire, choke in smoke, or whether the building itself would fall.

Around the 30th floor or so I found myself next to a pregnant woman who was having some trouble - she had come down from above the 70th floor. I did what I could to help her, somehow in caring for someone else I found the strength to fight off my own fear. Around the 15th floor or so the crowd had cleared, and a fireman had stepped in to help the pregnant woman, and told me to go on. I covered those last 15 floors in under a minute.

Overall, the descent itself was a 90-minute trip through hell. Emerging to the fresh winter air, even the miserable snow was welcome as I walked home in a daze, my mouth and nostrils streaked with soot, thrilled to be alive.