Editorial: Rolling to where? (re: latest IDF operation)

[edaly]

I've quickly become a fan of this site because of their fairly neutral reporting (IMO) and insightful editorials. This one is about the current IDF operation and the difficulty in attacking the 'terrorist infrastructure' among other things:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=%20146876&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=146876


edaly

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by edaly
I've quickly become a fan of this site because of their fairly neutral reporting (IMO) and insightful editorials.
The site itself is an arm of the Leftist Israeli newspaper, which is about as neutral as a daily Communist newspaper would be here in the U.S. or Canada. Ha'aretz is very intellectual and quick at news-reporting, but sure isn't neutral.

In any event, the piece is an editorial, i.e., an opinion piece, which is biased by definition. All editorials are biased per se, and that's fine, so long as they're labeled as such.

But this Uzi Benziman, who wrote the article is known to be one of the worst Leftist mud-slingers that Israel's democracy could possibly tolerate. Like most of his opinion pieces, this one too, has a defeatist, self-hating agenda, based on a level of military analysis that would even ambarrass a 12-year old schoolgirl.

Uzi has decided, for example, that arresting those who organize terrorism, those who recruit and train suicide bombers, those who assemble the bombs, and those who are potentially suicide bombers themselves, has no effect on the terrorists capability. He is, of course, wrong about this.

The rising number of "work accident" explosions that kill the terrorists while assembling their bombs shows that the terrorists have, in fact, suffered from decreased oprerational capability.

And while the suicide bombings still continue, it is understood that it will take Israel a while to accomplish its military goals, but in the end Israel will prevail if it is left to fight terrorism without the interference of the EU and the US.

Speaking of the US, with all our military might, Bush has said repeatedly that it will take several years of an all-out war on terrorism to get real results. Well, so far Israel hasn't been able to launch an all-out assault for more than a few hours. And still, the main terrorist Palestinian leaders have been granted a pardon and immunity by the EU and the US, so to criticise Israel's achievements in the past few hours, is pretty silly, IMO.

Instead of complaining about Israel's strategy of fighting terrorism, he should be complaining about international pressure on Israel not to eliminate Arafat and all his fellow terrorist officials.

The one passage that Uzi got right is this one:

A broad interpretation of "terror infrastructure" would encompass the entire Palestinian population on the West Bank and Gaza Strip; this population, after all, supplies moral and practical succor to terrorists, and the terrorists carry out their attacks in the name of this population.
Unlike his conclusion that Israel cannot go after the terrorist population and therefore Israel needs to line up its citizens like ducks in a shooting gallery, Israel does, in fact, need to do whatever it takes to deter Palestinian terrorism.

If anyone from the Palestinian population harbors the Islamic mass murderers, then that co-terrorist needs to be killed on sight, and the location that was used to launch terrorist attacks needs to be demolished. It's really that simple. Maybe unpleasant to the holier-than-thou Arab apologists of the world, but I'd rather see Israel take those kinds of measures on a wide-scale, than keep on having hundreds of innocent Israelis slaughtered by the Palestinians every month.

I also think that Israel needs to impose special martial laws during wartime, that prevent sabotage of the Israeli government's decisions and demoralizing of the IDF during combat, as this article tries to do.

Maybe Arafat or Saddam Hussein or bin Ladin would be very proud of Uzi's despicable opinion piece, but to Israelis, this needs to be viewed as a shameful display of a traitor-journalist aiding and abetting the enemy during wartime.

Meanwhile, I guess the author of the article would be very glad to know that dozens more mass murdered and critically wounded in terrorist attacks today, at the hands of those he seeks to help with his article.

[ibrodsky]

"Many world leaders called me today to ask whether Arafat is holed up in two rooms, or in three," Prime Minister Sharon said today. "That's what interests them, and not the number of civilians murdered in the terrorist attacks."

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ibrodsky
"Many world leaders called me today to ask whether Arafat is holed up in two rooms, or in three," Prime Minister Sharon said today. "That's what interests them, and not the number of civilians murdered in the terrorist attacks."

Outrageous.

I was glad to read on Debka that Sharon instructed his aides to stop accepting phone calls for most foreign heads of state.

The world leaders Sharon speaks of were never concerned with Jews being slaughtered. In fact, the more, the better for most of them. Their sole concern was always to prevent Israel, and often to prevent the US, from defeating Arab and Islamic terrorism, even after 9-11.

[edaly]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

The site itself is an arm of the Leftist Israeli newspaper, which is about as neutral as a daily Communist newspaper would be here in the U.S. or Canada. Ha'aretz is very intellectual and quick at news-reporting, but sure isn't neutral.


Well everyone's got their own definition of neutral. I find most of the mainstream press here in North America isn't very neutral either.

Originally posted by NewsGuy

If anyone from the Palestinian population harbors the Islamic mass murderers, then that co-terrorist needs to be killed on sight, and the location that was used to launch terrorist attacks needs to be demolished. It's really that simple.


By your own account, with ~85% of the palestinian population supporting suicide attacks in the polls, this mean killing millions of people. Let's be really clear about this - are you suggesting the Israeli's basically exterminate the palestinians? What evidence do you require to detemine that someone harbored / supported a terrorist? Does answering 'Yes' in an opinion poll qualify for death?

To me these "simple" solutions aren't workable for the very reasons they haven't been implemented yet: it's nigh impossible to determine if someone living in a crowded regugee camp or village has or hasn't aided a terrorist. And if you relax the burden of proof all the way down to the opinion poll, you're 'simply' talking about genociding an entire people. If this is indeed what you're suggesting, I don't think it's a very practical, unless the Israelis want to be remembered right after the Third Reich and the Rwandan Hutu's as one of modern history's greatest killers.


edaly

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by edaly
Let's be really clear about this - are you suggesting the Israeli's basically exterminate the palestinians?

...

it's nigh impossible to determine if someone living in a crowded regugee camp or village has or hasn't aided a terrorist. And if you relax the burden of proof all the way down to the opinion poll, you're 'simply' talking about genociding an entire people.

No, to be clear, I never suggested any such thing.

I suggested that those who are harboring terrorists should be killed and the location that the terrorists were harbored in should be demolished, as a deterrent to further terrorism and to save perhaps hundreds of innocent lives of the terrorists' potential victims.

That is also the U.S. declared course of action our President announced following 9-11, and it is a good one.

There is a huge difference between punishing someone for their political views, which I oppose, vs. punishing someone for their actions, which is what I support.

For example, many terrorists and weapons were found in underground rooms in Palestinian houses. For me, the inhabitants are guilty and should be severaly punished as a deterrent.

Any Palestinian carrying weapons should be punished.

Any mosque in which the terrorists were recruited, brainwashed and trained should be demolished.

Any "madrase" (Islamic school) in which the terrorists were recruited, brainwashed and trained should be demolished.

Any community centers run by the Fatah, Hamas or Hizbullah should be demolished.

Any funeral procession in which extremists with covered faces and bombs strapped to their bodies proudly displayed, should be bombed no matter how many terrorists and their supporters are eliminated.

Anyone caught paying the families of suicide bombers, should be targeted.

Any TV or radio station that broadcasts incitement against any religious group, and which calls for "martyrdom" or Jihad should be leveled.

* * *

The list goes on, and the "proof" is very simple, because these acts are carried out publicly, in broad daylight.

[Flame]

If a people who find it an honor to alla to blow themselves up on an hourly basis, and when a people who iniatiate a war, should realize they are forcing their target to retaliate.

Don't want to die? Don't start a war. Don't want your innocent people to die in crossfire? Don't start a war.

And if it comes to the horrible option that Israel will do what any other nation does under seige... then... better them than us. Most of the world already hates us, and had run out of fingers to point at us, so if the rest of the world like yourself see's Jews as "the worst" murderers since hitler... (total over-the-top equasion) that is better than to be remembered as the people that were finally finished off. (You always have an angle.)

These so-called innocent people---- so why aren't these innocent peace-loving peace seeking palestinian's gathering in mass protests for PEACE????? All I see is mass protests about --- Death to Jews Death to Israel.

The world isn't going to take us down... to finish off what hitler started without a fight this time. That 's just how it is.... never again.... understand?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy


Any funeral procession in which extremists with covered faces and bombs strapped to their bodies proudly displayed, should be bombed no matter how many terrorists and their supporters are eliminated.

This is a great idea. There are often hundreds wearing ski masks and firing in the air at these funerals, demanding more Jewish blood. I know, the Europeans will lecture Israel like crazy (they have such high moral standards, particularly for Jews!), but Israel would be completely justified in taking out most of the crowd at these ritual terrorist gatherings.

[edaly]

Originally posted by NewsGuy

Any Palestinian carrying weapons should be punished.

Any mosque in which the terrorists were recruited, brainwashed and trained should be demolished.

Any "madrase" (Islamic school) in which the terrorists were recruited, brainwashed and trained should be demolished.

Any community centers run by the Fatah, Hamas or Hizbullah should be demolished.

Any funeral procession in which extremists with covered faces and bombs strapped to their bodies proudly displayed, should be bombed no matter how many terrorists and their supporters are eliminated.

Anyone caught paying the families of suicide bombers, should be targeted.

Any TV or radio station that broadcasts incitement against any religious group, and which calls for "martyrdom" or Jihad should be leveled.



The overall theory here seems to be that if you exercise near-absolute control over a people and punish every action you deem wrong, they will be unable or unwilling to attack you.

I think people will always be able to resist if their will is strong enough, no matter how much control is exercised over them. I don't see how even more restrictions and controls will ever reduce the threat to Israel.

To bring about such a change, I think a major shift in the education / media / attitudes of the palestinian people is required. But I don't think this will happen as a result of tighter controls and punishment.


edaly

[Flame]

Any arab not happy about living in a Jewish state is free to pick up and leave any time.... there are 22 arab nations most of which offer such freedoms as islam being the only accepted religon, women not allowed to hold a job or drive a car... things like that... freedom of repression and one rule over people. But do they leave? No, they kill and kill some more and to my knowledge, cold blooded killing and terrorism is not tollerated in any other part of the world.

For someone opposed to violence I'm astonished you find it an acceptable form of rebellion for arabs living in Israel.

Perhaps if you took your message of peace to arab message boards, you would do something worth while? Nah... we know your favorite passtime is to harrangue Jews... don't you maybe have a daughter to spend time with instead of using all your time lurking around every Jewish message board you can find?

[edaly]

I don't think offering someone the option of leaving their home or living under oppression is any option at all. I agree with you that many of the surrounding arab countries are also quite oppressive. Perhaps that's one reason why the Palestinians want their own state.

For the record, I do not condone the violence used by the palestinians as a form of rebellion. I feel they would be infinitely better off if they pursued peaceful resistance and diiplomacy to achieve their goals.

As for this being a 'Jewish message board', I didn't see any such notices when I signed up. As far as I can see this forum is available to people of any religion or race. I'll leave the rest of the ad hominems alone.


edaly

[L@mplighterM]

The overall theory here seems to be that if you exercise near-absolute control over a people and punish every action you deem wrong, they will be unable or unwilling to attack you.

I think people will always be able to resist if their will is strong enough, no matter how much control is exercised over them. I don't see how even more restrictions and controls will ever reduce the threat to Israel.

To bring about such a change, I think a major shift in the education / media / attitudes of the palestinian people is required. But I don't think this will happen as a result of tighter controls and punishment.

How specifically is this change of attitude supposed to be taught to the Palestinians? Are you willing to become a missionary and guide them to the path of righteousness?

Where specifically in this world does a leader get on TV and promote violence and genocide against the people of another nation? Where in this world does DJ’s or radio announcers broadcast hate messages against all the edaly’s in the world?

I don’t know where you live perhaps in a dream but I’ll tell you that terrorists don’t run around with AK47’s where I live. By the way those weapons were banned in a UN Resolution before the Resolution calling for Israel’s withdrawal in was drafted in 1967.

News Guys list seems fair to me and should be adopted and become a prerequisite to all reasonable nations prior to giving Palestinians aid.

Israelis have been and are extremely tolerant with most of their Arab neighbors. They have worked hard to build a metropolis in the middle- east and it’s a shinning example of what perseverance and sweat can accomplish.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by edaly
The overall theory here seems to be that if you exercise near-absolute control over a people and punish every action you deem wrong, they will be unable or unwilling to attack you.
That's not the overall theory I stated. I'm not sure where you got that from.

Do you think that the American, or Canadian, or European rule of law which uniformly would consider all those acts criminal, is exercising "near absolute control"? I think not.

You might already know, that under US Federal law, many of those acts would warrant the death penalty, right?


To bring about such a change, I think a major shift in the education / media / attitudes of the palestinian people is required. But I don't think this will happen as a result of tighter controls and punishment.

You're right about the media and changing people's attitudes. Ultimately, this is exactly what will make the difference between a state of non-war and a state of peace between the parties.

But it is also important for the Palestinians to understand that the basic laws of any civilized society, which preclude mass-murder, also applies to them, even if they happen to be extremist Muslims, amd even if they have strong political aspirations.

So far, the message they are getting by Israel's sparing of Arafat and his top terrorist leaders, and by the families of the suicide bombers being respected and becoming wealthy by their third-world standards, is that there is no deterrent to terrorism against innocent civilians, and so the slaughter goes on every day.