And you want to vote Democrat!!!??

[RichardP]

Lieberman: Hamas OK without terror

Sen. Joseph Lieberman said he would negotiate with Hamas if the group renounced terrorism. In Sunday night’s debate for Democratic presidential candidates, the senator from Connecticut said he snubbed Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat on his last visit to the region because Arafat facilitated violence and refused to take on terrorists. By the same token, Lieberman said, he would negotiate with any group that renounced terrorism. “Would I negotiate with Hamas and other terrorist groups, not while they’re terrorists but, you know, as a matter of faith and policy, I believe that people are capable of change,” Lieberman said at the Detroit debate sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus. “If they renounce terrorism, as Yitzhak Rabin, the late prime minister of Israel, said, you don’t negotiate with your friends to achieve peace; you negotiate with those who have been your enemies.”
http://www.jta.org

I find it difficult to ascertain, why folks who back the present war on Islamic-Terrorists, would even consider voting Democrat. Bush et al have dropped the ball at times but to be just, I would hate to have witnessed a Democrat president’s reaction to 9/11 and its aftermath.
Honestly, Lieberman strikes me as the Jewish stand-in for Jimmy Carter... and to think Halloween is a few days away!

[RichardP]

Originally posted by RichardP
Lieberman: Hamas OK without terror

Sen. Joseph Lieberman said he would negotiate with Hamas if the group renounced terrorism. In Sunday night’s debate for Democratic presidential candidates, the senator from Connecticut said he snubbed Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat on his last visit to the region because Arafat facilitated violence and refused to take on terrorists. By the same token, Lieberman said, he would negotiate with any group that renounced terrorism. “Would I negotiate with Hamas and other terrorist groups, not while they’re terrorists but, you know, as a matter of faith and policy, I believe that people are capable of change,” Lieberman said at the Detroit debate sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus. “If they renounce terrorism, as Yitzhak Rabin, the late prime minister of Israel, said, you don’t negotiate with your friends to achieve peace; you negotiate with those who have been your enemies.”
http://www.jta.org


I find it difficult to ascertain, why folks who back the present war on Islamic-Terrorists, would even consider voting Democrat. Bush et al have dropped the ball at times but to be just, I would hate to have witnessed a Democrat president’s reaction to 9/11 and its aftermath.
Honestly, Lieberman strikes me as the Jewish stand-in for Jimmy Carter... and to think Halloween is a few days away!

Bulletin… Senator Joe Lieberman states, Hamas is okay in his book, if they renounce terrorism. I don’t know about you folks, but I think, Lieberman is in desperate need of a MRI or CAT scan on his brain. There is something absent, common-sense, morality, or the cupboard is bare.
To me, this madness is an affront Israel/Judaism…admittedly; he is not alone as a Democrat, of whom 99.9% hold this opinion.
My opinion of Joe as a decent human being has taken a tumble… this is not the time to emulate the likes of Neville Chamberlain, Jimmy Carter or others in the “Appeasers’ Hall of Fame”: terrorists understand one thing and one thing only… a gun to the head and someone at the other end willing to squeeze the trigger!
I had to get it off my chest!! :D

[L@mplighterM]

The pursuit of peace has caused many of Israel’s problems. I’m not all that certain that peace exists at all, throughout history our planet has been plaqued with one war after the other, so I don’t really believe that the in between wars should be classified as peace.

Call it a lull in a particular conflict!

Lieberman is an idiot but he has plenty of company among his fellow politicians.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
The pursuit of peace has caused many of Israel’s problems. I’m not all that certain that peace exists at all, throughout history our planet has been plaqued with one war after the other, so I don’t really believe that the in between wars should be classified as peace.

Call it a lull in a particular conflict!

Lieberman is an idiot but he has plenty of company among his fellow politicians.

Never truer words spoken, Lamplighter, though, I actually like Lieberman... not with bias. Also true is your statment re: peace, and our planet's ongoing wars, which are intertwined throughout history. As mentioned peace is a "lull" before another conflict; hence, we ,too, become "lulled" into a sense of false security and let our guard down. Seemingly, we never appear to get it together when threatened once again.

[David_in_NYC]

Leiberman was shown to be just another corrupt politician looking out for his own rear end, in 1998. "Joe Leiberman always wrestles with his conscience, and his conscience always loses" they say. Jew or not, he's just another corrupt piece of trash whose loyalty can be bought by the highest bidder.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by David_in_NYC
Leiberman was shown to be just another corrupt politician looking out for his own rear end, in 1998. "Joe Leiberman always wrestles with his conscience, and his conscience always loses" they say. Jew or not, he's just another corrupt piece of trash whose loyalty can be bought by the highest bidder.

Yep, sad as it is they are all cut from the same cloth... by the way
David_in_NYC... what happened to our damn Yankees? My son will never let me forget... and I want too!!
Perhaps, you're a Mets fan... and rollong on the floor hysterically!!!

Back to Joe... my opinion of him has plummeted!

[Elisheba]

This makes me so sad!

I always thought of myself as a left-wing, pro-union, 'Goodman & Schwerner' type of Jew; but with the new Anti-Semitism, I feel I no longer have this luxury.

Now, it seems as if the future of the State of Israel really hangs in the balance.

At this point, I believe Howard Dean will be the democratic nominee and, Jewish wife notwithstanding, this man received a standing ovation at an Arab-American event ... and that I do not take lightly.

This may very well be my first time voting republican! Hopefully, as far as I am concerned, the domestic agenda will be kept from going completely down the drain by the Congress; but, I cannot see voting for any of the democratic candidates for president; not with Israel's future hanging so tenuously!

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Elisheba
This makes me so sad!

I always thought of myself as a left-wing, pro-union, 'Goodman & Schwerner' type of Jew; but with the new Anti-Semitism, I feel I no longer have this luxury.

Now, it seems as if the future of the State of Israel really hangs in the balance.

At this point, I believe Howard Dean will be the democratic nominee and, Jewish wife notwithstanding, this man received a standing ovation at an Arab-American event ... and that I do not take lightly.

This may very well be my first time voting republican! Hopefully, as far as I am concerned, the domestic agenda will be kept from going completely down the drain by the Congress; but, I cannot see voting for any of the democratic candidates for president; not with Israel's future hanging so tenuously!

Welcome, Elisheba, hopefully, more of us will feel as you do; the democrats scare the hell out of me, regarding Israel: though, the Republicans have mucked-up along the way, at least they are in Israel's corner. Perhaps, not as much as I would care to see but the Democrats on the other hand are knee-jerkers at best. To sell Israel off, would not, in my opinion cause a stir.

[Elisheba]

Originally posted by RichardP
Welcome, Elisheba, hopefully, more of us will feel as you do; the democrats scare the hell out of me, regarding Israel: though, the Republicans have mucked-up along the way, at least they are in Israel's corner. Perhaps, not as much as I would care to see but the Democrats on the other hand are knee-jerkers at best. To sell Israel off, would not, in my opinion cause a stir.

Thank you for the welcome; I really appreciate it.

Yes, the democrats seem to be taking us right back into the 1930's and I ain't going this time!

Did you read the DEBKA item on the EU's plan for the dismantling of Israel? Get a democrat in the White House and that may turn into reality (((shudder))).

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Elisheba
Thank you for the welcome; I really appreciate it.

Yes, the democrats seem to be taking us right back into the 1930's and I ain't going this time!

Did you read the DEBKA item on the EU's plan for the dismantling of Israel? Get a democrat in the White House and that may turn into reality (((shudder))).

The EU as is the UN is trash; you are so right about the 30's...
unfortunately, they would like nothing better than to re-kindle the flames and, thus, another Holocaust. That said we must not let it happen; Never Again... I fear the Democrats will fall deaf on that cry!
Sorry, yes I did... and as you, elisheba, I ((( shudder)))!
Take care!

[Mil]

I think this will be the first time when most Jews will vote Republican. I will vote Bush for sure - there is no one else really.

Lieberman - I will never vote for a Jew as a principle.
Karry - an idiot.
Dean - an idiot.
Clark - even a bigger idiot.
Our Senator Mosley Braun - sorry

Actually I voted for Gore last time though I thought both Bush and Gore were idiots. But Gore had Lieberman and that probably turned my vote for him. Now - it's Bush 100%.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Mil
I think this will be the first time when most Jews will vote Republican. I will vote Bush for sure - there is no one else really.

Lieberman - I will never vote for a Jew as a principle.
Karry - an idiot.
Dean - an idiot.
Clark - even a bigger idiot.
Our Senator Mosley Braun - sorry

Actually I voted for Gore last time though I thought both Bush and Gore were idiots. But Gore had Lieberman and that probably turned my vote for him. Now - it's Bush 100%.
I find it quite disconcerting, what is happening in the US, during this race for the White House. Media coverage is so blatant in its bias; I ponder, if, the media believes the Americans are as inane as they. Clark has come off as a total knob-head; apparently, his campaign is being handled by, Bubba Clinton’s campaign team. Hillary in all likelihood, is trying to sabotage his chances… the ring of, President Hillary, gives me the chills and more!
Dean is a danger to everyone, especially, his own country and Israel… I’m certain shoppers on Rodeo Drive, love him to death… they’re the only one’s who can afford to get the hell out and buy themselves their own country… dictatorship! Enough, time to wash down some medication! :D

[Donna]

Originally posted by RichardP
I find it quite disconcerting, what is happening in the US, during this race for the White House. Media coverage is so blatant in its bias; I ponder, if, the media believes the Americans are as inane as they. Clark has come off as a total knob-head; apparently, his campaign is being handled by, Bubba Clinton’s campaign team. Hillary in all likelihood, is trying to sabotage his chances… the ring of, President Hillary, gives me the chills and more!
Dean is a danger to everyone, especially, his own country and Israel… I’m certain shoppers on Rodeo Drive, love him to death… they’re the only one’s who can afford to get the hell out and buy themselves their own country… dictatorship! Enough, time to wash down some medication! :D

"A soulless technocrat"

[Elisheba]

Originally posted by Donna
"A soulless technocrat"

First, a momentary diversion, please: RichardP, I feel I've made a friend already; you take care as well!

Now, Donna: you have encapsulated Dean; he is a soulless technocrat indeed!

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Donna
"A soulless technocrat"

Aye, and more... she is so vile!!!! :p
I wonder what she's going out as for Halloween... I won't say, booo! Cheers, Donna!

[abu afak]

Lieberman lashes out against liberal Dems


WASHINGTON, Aug. 10 (UPI) -- Sen. Joe Lieberman attacked liberal Democrats Sunday and warned against embracing the "failed solutions of the past."

Lieberman, who's seeking his party's nomination for president, launched one of his harshest attacks against candidate Howard Dean during an appearance on "Fox News Sunday."

Lieberman said Dean's popularity is rising among Democrats because he has been able tap into anger aimed at President Bush.

"I share the anger, but, ultimately, to govern this country, it takes more than anger," he said. "It takes experience. It takes positions that reflect the best values of the American people."

Lieberman said Dean's plan to repeal Bush's tax cuts "would mean an increase in taxes on everybody, including middle class and working families."

He said Dean's ideas "are out of tune with what America needs today."

Lieberman said the United States must continue its military strength and scale back spending.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20030810-101948-1437r.htm

[minusthejihad]

Happy Halloween!

Elisheba,

Welcome to IF. I too am voting Republican this time around. I was angry when Bush won last time, because I voted for Gore. However, after 9-11, I was SO thankful Bush won.

RichardP,

Guess what, my dead jihadi outfit didn't work out! :(

So, instead, I am going out tonight as a "peace activist"!

[american man]

I think for American Jews it's a losing proposition no matter who they vote for. This is from WorldNetDaily about a study done on voting support for Israel

A study by Professor Kenneth D. Wald of the University of Florida and University of Texas Professor Elizabeth A. Oldmixon,_ presented their findings at a conference on The Religious Dimension in World Politics, organized by the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies at Israel's Bar-Ilan University.


The study analyzed voting in the House of Representatives from 1997 to 2002. It found that "in a very short period of time, support for Israel became more partisan, more ideological, and more religiously driven."

It noted widespread support for Israel in both houses. Now, "support for Israel was overwhelming, with many more Democrats and African-Americans supporting than not supporting Israel," the researchers wrote.

Jewish senators and legislators in the United States with large Jewish constituencies have been among Israel's strongest supporters.


In the 105th Congress, from 1997 to 1998, liberals were Israel's strongest supporters, "perhaps ... because they viewed Israel as the more vulnerable group." However by the 107th Congress, between 2001 and 2002, "It is not Jews, Democrats and liberals who are carrying Israel's banner in the House. Rather, it is Jews, evangelical and fundamentalist Protestants, Republicans and ideological conservatives," the researchers wrote.

"We might expect evangelicals to be relatively less supportive of Israel because ... they hold negative opinions about Jews," the report said referring to several studies published since 1966.

Nevertheless, "The unwavering support for Israel of born-again Christian politicians such as (House Majority Leader) Tom DeLay and President Bush is explained by reference to their 'devout religious beliefs,'" they wrote.

Oldmixon told the conference she suspects the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in New York and Washington made congressmen "more sensitive to domestic terror threats faced by Israel. For the neo-cons it's more an admission, 'We need to go get them.' For the religious conservatives this was ... not really strategically motivated. It was more from the standpoint, 'Look at these godless terrorists,'" she said.

The changing attitude towards Israel could divide the Democratic Party, since Jews, blacks, and liberals have been at its heart for decades, the researchers wrote.

They cautioned the Jews against relying on the evangelicals as "an unwavering source of support for Israel."

"What would happen to this support if Israel decided to withdraw from part or all the West Bank?" they asked.

They quoted Republican Sen. James Inhofe of Oklahoma, as having said the battle in the West Bank is not political but "A contest over whether or not the word of God is true."

"Does this mean that by going against the word of God in this or other ways, Israel would give up her right to American support?" the researchers asked.

"Secular (American) Jews and other secular Americans who care deeply about Israel must be cautious about relying too heavily on evangelical support," they concluded.

[Elisheba]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
Happy Halloween!

Elisheba,

Welcome to IF. I too am voting Republican this time around. I was angry when Bush won last time, because I voted for Gore. However, after 9-11, I was SO thankful Bush won.

Thank you for the welcome.

I felt exactly the same way about 2000!

So, tell us about Halloween...what peace activist did you go as? The one who just got the Sydney Prize for Peace? aaaggghhh!

[Elisheba]

Originally posted by american man
I think for American Jews it's a losing proposition no matter who they vote for. This is from WorldNetDaily about a study done on voting support for Israel

I tend to agree with you.

However, I do believe I will hold my nose and vote for Bush. He should succeed in angering the Arab world so much by 2008 that it might be fun.

Unfortunately, the country will probably be on the brink of collapse, but, maybe we'll get a good crop of democratic candidates for 2008. Just think: who can the Republicans nominate in 2008: Jeb?

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Elisheba
I tend to agree with you.

However, I do believe I will hold my nose and vote for Bush. He should succeed in angering the Arab world so much by 2008 that it might be fun.

Unfortunately, the country will probably be on the brink of collapse, but, maybe we'll get a good crop of democratic candidates for 2008. Just think: who can the Republicans nominate in 2008: Jeb?

Hi Elisheba, I was in the land of Oz... Canada's capital for Halloween.. frightening!!!
Dems in '08... G-d help us if its Hillary and "Wee Willy winkle" as the first lady!!
Jeb... yuk!!!

[Elisheva]

Great discussion guys. I'm a new user too and I see that someone else already has the same name except with a "B" (Hi Elisheba!). Some of you may know that B and V in Hebrew are the same letter (a vowel dot inside makes the V into a B). That's why the name can be transcribed into Roman characters 2 ways. Anyway, Elisheba and I are 2 different persons.

Anyway, I've been a republican and, as a non-Jew, a strong supporter of Israel for as long as I can remember. I often regretted that many Jews seemed misguided in trusting so much in the Democratic party. I always felt that the Democratic party's values conflicted with Jewish values of self-reliance, strength and a rejection of victimhood and I am glad that Jewish voters are finally realizing who their true friends are.

Let's face it, Israel stands for everything people on the left abhore, i.e., a wonderful success story of people coming with only the shirts on their back to a deserted piece of land and turning it into an oasis within a few years. This is something that only people on the right can truly admire and respect.

People on the left have always loved losers especially if they are bitter losers, who, although, they've brought most of their misery on themselves, like to blame everybody else and try to bring them down with them. The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity and their corrupt leaders are entirely responsible for their misery. Yet, they have become the darlings of the left in the Western world.

It's great time many Jews realize that they are too good for the left.

[Elisheba]

Originally posted by Elisheva
Great discussion guys. I'm a new user too and I see that someone else already has the same name except with a "B" (Hi Elisheba!). Some of you may know that B and V in Hebrew are the same letter (a vowel dot inside makes the V into a B). That's why the name can be transcribed into Roman characters 2 ways. Anyway, Elisheba and I are 2 different persons. HI, ELISHEVA! YOU SHOULDN'T KID WITH THE PEOPLE; YOU AND I ARE JUST 2 PERSONALITIES OF, OH, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY, A DOZEN? LOL

Anyway, I've been a republican and, as a non-Jew, a strong supporter of Israel for as long as I can remember. I often regretted that many Jews seemed misguided in trusting so much in the Democratic party. I always felt that the Democratic party's values conflicted with Jewish values of self-reliance, strength and a rejection of victimhood and I am glad that Jewish voters are finally realizing who their true friends are.

WELL, THIS PERSONALITY HAS BEEN A DEMOCRAT AND A JEW AS WELL AS A STRONG SUPPORTER OF ISRAEL PRACTICALLY SINCE BIRTH. YOU MENTION SOME JEWISH VALUES, BUT YOU FORGET THOSE OF JUSTICE, CHARITY, LEARNING AND OTHERS, ALL OF WHICH SEEM TO FIT BETTER WITH THE DEMOCRATS. UNFORTUNATELY, AS TOM LEHRER SANG, "...THEY ALL HATE THE JEWS." SO, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, I WILL TURN AWAY FROM MY PARTY, BUT FOR HOW LONG I JUST DON'T KNOW.

Let's face it, Israel stands for everything people on the left abhore, i.e., a wonderful success story of people coming with only the shirts on their back to a deserted piece of land and turning it into an oasis within a few years. This is something that only people on the right can truly admire and respect.

YOU'RE GENERALIZING HERE, ELISHEVA!

People on the left have always loved losers especially if they are bitter losers, who, although, they've brought most of their misery on themselves, like to blame everybody else and try to bring them down with them. The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity and their corrupt leaders are entirely responsible for their misery. Yet, they have become the darlings of the left in the Western world.

YEP; THAT'S WHY I'M RUNNING TO YOUR 'SIDE' FOR NOW!

It's great time many Jews realize that they are too good for the left.

WHAT THE HECK? WE'RE TOO GOOD FOR EITHER THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT!! SERIOUSLY, CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

[Elisheva]

We can absolutely get along Elisheba! I came on a little strong but have absolutely no hatred for a sincere and fair-minded liberal person. And maybe I should take back what I said when I wrote that the left has ALWAYS loved bitter losers. I agree that there was a time when being a liberal probably meant that one showed more tolerance especially toward minorities and I can see why Jews may have felt attracted to people who seemed more accepting.

I admit that, a while back, conservatives often were anti-semitic as in the old WASP type clubs, etc., but I think that it's great time to rethink this whole thing. You talk about charity, justice, etc., and I certainly agree that these, first of all, are old biblical values and have been historically advocated by many Jewish theologians and intellectuals, who perhaps, more than others, knew what it meant to be oppressed and cast out, especially in old Christian Europe.

But I think that it can no longer remain an accepted idea that people on the left stand for justice, charity and all that good stuff and that people on the right are just a bunch of greedy, heartless bastards. By speaking of people on the right, I mean people who honestly advocate capitalism and freedom and are not ashamed to praise the values developed by the Western world. Certainly, we are not perfect as I don't think any human society can ever be and we certainly have made our mistakes with slavery, etc., but we have shown a great capacity for self-criticism and our western societies, even with their injustices and imperfections, do provide the best possible life.

I can certainly understand why some of the left way of thinking has been necessary and still is to keep us in check but I think that, in a way, by being so capable of self-criticism, we have ended up "creating a monster" and all those values perceived as being held by people on the left are becoming more and more truly defended by people on the right (i.e., capitalist democracies) and history has shown that the left can really lead to a severe restriction on freedoms and opportunities as in the failure of the whole socialist/communist enterprise which basically denied human nature.

In the same manner, people on the left who so much have wanted to be the champions of the underdogs seem to have completely lost track of what an underdog and justice are. It seems that, nowadays, an underdog worthy of support by the left is anyone who claims some type of victimhood from the West (now basically the US and Israel). In many of these claims, there is a complete disregard for historical realities such as in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in which many people (especially young ignorant students on campuses) only see what appears to be an oppressed group (i.e. a third world type Palestinian people) and a mean oppressor (i.e., a western type Israel supported by a mean imperialistic United States).

So, I don't claim that conservatives and Republicans have always been without fault (they are not without fault now) and I certainly see some of the hypocrisy among some Republicans who are all too happy to court the Jewish vote but are really closet anti-semites. But I really believe that most people I know who are "right-wing" conservative republicans really admire and stand by Israel and have a lot of admiration and respect for the Jewish culture as one that has contributed so positively to humankind (see number of Nobel prize winners for all kinds of great work in the sciences and humanities). In fact, I think it works both ways. As many conservatives have become less prejudiced, they realize that they have missed out on recognizing the greatness of the Jewish culture and Jews are finding out that the so-called liberals who seemed to "like" them only did so when they perceived them as victims and outcasts. It seems to me that liberals don't like to see people succeed, especially people they like to patronize into thinking that they need liberals, kind of like parents who don't like to see their children grow up and can't let them go.

Liberals often criticize successul blacks and call them "uncle Toms". Why? because this "uncle Tom" doesn't need them. He's making it and is not asking them to feel sorry for him. In other words, he truly is their equal and they don't like that.

The same with Jews. It was in good taste way back when for left wing people to give lip service to the tolerance of others like Jews as long as they perceived Jews as outcasts. Now that Jews are mainstream and even have a country of their own which they "dare" defend against attacks, now all of a sudden they don't like them anymore. Why? because in their elitist view, these Jews don't know their place.

I'm sorry Elisheba if I seem to go a little all over the place in my argument. What I mean is that I don't think that people who call themselves conservative today are the same people who were conservative many years ago and the same goes for liberals. So, I was wrong in saying ALWAYS in my first post. But I think that, now, if I were Jewish, I would find a lot more to identify with among conservatives than among liberals which I'm sure can be painful if one has considered him/herself a liberal.

Hey, remember what Winston Churchhill said: "if you're not a liberal when you're young, you don' t have a heart. If you're not a conservative when you're older, you don't have a brain". LOL!

[Altalena]

It is one of the richest of ironies that the Dems, with all four of their top 2004 hopefuls having ties to Judaism (Lieberman Jewish, Kerry and Clark with Jewish fathers; Dean married to a Jew and the father of children raised Jewish), will probably get a substantially smaller percentage of the Jewish vote than they would normally expect. The Chomskys and the Sontags won't vote Republican, but I suspect many Jews who would normally vote Democratic will be bolting next November.

I voted for Gore in 2000, but I will be voting for Bush in 2004 despite the fact that some parts of his domestic agenda are anathema to me. Bush's pro-insurer, tort-reform leanings could have led to genuine disaster had Congress followed his lead (which happily they didn't this time around), but (as with Grover Cleveland), one still has to love him for the enemies he's made:

1. He rightly flipped off the unelected idiots at the UN and the EU in toppling Saddam, and once again showed them to be the irrelevant hand-wringers they are;

2. His ongoing support for Israel has in essence isolated the inevitably pro-Arab State Department, and has given notice to the Palestinians that Oslo leniency is now a part of history.

3. He has not only enraged but indeed marginalized the far left. His proactive internationalist bearing has forced the left to advocate a worldview so openly isolationist that Lindbergh and the America Firsters would have been comfortable with it.

The left, in Dean, will have a genuinely liberal candidate... much as they had with McGovern in '72. Dean will doubtless get Vermont's four electoral votes, but one has to wonder if he'll even carry Massachusetts as McGovern did.

The Dems' last best hope seemed to be the economy, but even here, they are getting no help... 7.2% GDP growth the last quarter, and the Dow at 9832 as I type this.

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Altalena
It is one of the richest of ironies that the Dems, with all four of their top 2004 hopefuls having ties to Judaism (Lieberman Jewish, Kerry and Clark with Jewish fathers; Dean married to a Jew and the father of children raised Jewish), will probably get a substantially smaller percentage of the Jewish vote than they would normally expect. The Chomskys and the Sontags won't vote Republican, but I suspect many Jews who would normally vote Democratic will be bolting next November.

I voted for Gore in 2000, but I will be voting for Bush in 2004 despite the fact that some parts of his domestic agenda are anathema to me. Bush's pro-insurer, tort-reform leanings could have led to genuine disaster had Congress followed his lead (which happily they didn't this time around), but (as with Grover Cleveland), one still has to love him for the enemies he's made:

1. He rightly flipped off the unelected idiots at the UN and the EU in toppling Saddam, and once again showed them to be the irrelevant hand-wringers they are;

2. His ongoing support for Israel has in essence isolated the inevitably pro-Arab State Department, and has given notice to the Palestinians that Oslo leniency is now a part of history.

3. He has not only enraged but indeed marginalized the far left. His proactive internationalist bearing has forced the left to advocate a worldview so openly isolationist that Lindbergh and the America Firsters would have been comfortable with it.

The left, in Dean, will have a genuinely liberal candidate... much as they had with McGovern in '72. Dean will doubtless get Vermont's four electoral votes, but one has to wonder if he'll even carry Massachusetts as McGovern did.

The Dems' last best hope seemed to be the economy, but even here, they are getting no help... 7.2% GDP growth the last quarter, and the Dow at 9832 as I type this.

Well said and astute, Atalena... welcome to Israel Forum!!!!

[Elisheba]

Hi, Elisheva!

I agree with you when you write, "...But I think that it can no longer remain an accepted idea that people on the left stand for justice, charity and all that good stuff and that people on the right are just a bunch of greedy, heartless bastards...". When Jews were fighting for everybody else's causes, we were still hated by the 'usual suspects', but revered in liberal/left circles. Fighting for justice is a good thing. However, when some Jews decided we deserve that same justice, the liberal/left turned on us. Yes, the left and the right do not stand for what they did some 40 years ago. ;)

About that Churchill quote, I have no problem admitting I am way too much heart with a pea brain, but, darn, I still love the underdog: the only difference now that I'm 'all growed up' is that I realize I have met the underdog and s/he is US! :D

Shalom, Elisheba

[Elisheba]

Especially to both Altalena and RichardP:

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You both, as have many people, seem to presume Dean to be the democratic nominee for president in 2004.

I'm not so sure. He does have cult-like followers, but he seems disturbed. I wonder if he might just lose it before the convention, but, then again, that's just me :D !

Clark does not seem out of the question to me. He has the Clintonion power group in his court as well as the military background to throw in Bush' face. I don't know, just a thought; but, I can't see anyone else getting the nomination.

Kerry's implosion has been fun to watch - ooooh, I'm so bad: excuse me, Senator Kerry, more catsup on your crow?

Shalom, Elisheba

[Altalena]

Dean has gotten and/or is about to get the support of the unions, which usually seems to carry weight in Dem circles. He also has amassed significant contributions. Clark's poll numbers are way down, and he will find it hard to get around his astonishing 24-hour 180-degree volte-face about the Iraq War.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35577-2003Nov13.html

[Elisheba]

Yes, you are quite correct. Dean has already gotten the AFSME and SEIU endorsements and has amassed tremendous amounts of money; mostly through the internet! I realize the logic of your words...I'm just sayin'...

Seriously, I still don't dismiss the power of the Clinton machine or the effect of a Dean exhibition of truly crazy behavior.

I don't mean to argue with you, I really don't. Maybe it's Dean's followers, but I just can't accept the idea that he'll be the democratic nominee...well, we shall see. I'll bet ya' something typically Californian (where I am) against something your state is famous for, okay? ;) :p ;)

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Altalena
Dean has gotten and/or is about to get the support of the unions, which usually seems to carry weight in Dem circles. He also has amassed significant contributions. Clark's poll numbers are way down, and he will find it hard to get around his astonishing 24-hour 180-degree volte-face about the Iraq War.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35577-2003Nov13.html

Clark as mentioned has blown it, because he listened to his advisors (ex-Bubba folks). Dean scares the hell out of me, a might too extreme a lefty for me... though my leaning is right of center...
not extreme. If the Dems get in Israel et al are in for a rough ride.
I don't think the Democrats or liberals are the great care givers of the masses, they profess to be; it's a myth which has gotten so much play time; people actually believe it! There is a smugness in the left... a belief that they are the only ones possessing an intellectual capacity and compassion for the under dog... they truly believe in this self-righteous clap-trap... I say they are delusional and not as infallible as they believe.

[Elisheba]

Wow, RichardP, you sound angry! I apologize if I offended you. Listen, I'm left of center and I wouldn't vote for Dean if it was Dean vs. Mr Ed! And, yes, the liberals - especially the ones in academia or of the limousine stripe - are quite sanctimonious and, as you say, smug. Come on, now, I hope there are no hard feelings among you and Altalena against me over all this! :eek:

[Altalena]

No hard feelings at all here. I actually respect Dean... he's upfront and relatively plain-spoken, but he's far left enough that he's essentially unelectable, unless the market tumbles and something drastically unforeseen occurs.

This bit from former SDS'er Todd Gitlin, still a left mainstay, demonstrates the utter divergence of interest, at least nowadays, as between the New Left and the Jews:

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2002/06/gitlin_june.html

[RichardP]

Originally posted by Altalena
No hard feelings at all here. I actually respect Dean... he's upfront and relatively plain-spoken, but he's far left enough that he's essentially unelectable, unless the market tumbles and something drastically unforeseen occurs.

This bit from former SDS'er Todd Gitlin, still a left mainstay, demonstrates the utter divergence of interest, at least nowadays, as between the New Left and the Jews:

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2002/06/gitlin_june.html

Not in the least, you folks have made some threads more than stimulating! Though, I must admit I don't respect Dean, Atalena, especially after his drivel about The ME! Much too far to the left for me! I must admit, left, right, moderate or any label we put on someone, there are some creative and decent solutions from all camps. Partisan politics can do so much harm, it's unfortunate ego
has become in essence the rule of thumb, instead of the well being of the country and its citizenry.