Vandals deface Tel Aviv monument to assassinated PM Rabin

[sharonbn]

Vandals painted swastikas early Friday on the memorial at the site of Rabin's 1995 murder, the day before the rally to commemorate the eighth anniversary of his killing.

Graffiti targeting Rabin and his late wife, Leah, was also painted on the Sha'ar Hagay overpass near Jerusalem, Israel Radio reported. In Herzliya, the words "Kahane was right" were
also daubed on a wall in a public park near the home of Rabin's assassin Yigal Amir. Further graffiti was found on Dizengoff Street in central Tel Aviv and on buildings in Ramat Aviv, Holon and Bnei Brak.

Israeli lawmakers from across the political spectrum expressed outrage Friday at the vandalism. President Moshe Katsav called for those behind the vandalism of a Tel Aviv monument to slain prime minister Yitzhak Rabin to be brought to justice, and urged the public to attend the memorial service Saturday to mark his
assassination.

Yitzhak Rabin's daughter, former MK Dalia Rabin-Pelossof, was quoted by Israel Radio on Friday as saying that it was time to hold a public debate on the issue of incitement and violence, before it was too late.

Among those set to participate in the gathering Saturday at 8 P.M. are the relatives of missing airman Ron Arad, who will talk about the special bond between the Rabin and Arad families.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/355954.html

Ynet adds:

Earlier this week, Shaike Levi, an Israeli entertainer and host of this year's memorial service was being interviewed for Channel 10 news in front of Rabin's memorial in Rabin square when a passer-by walked in front of the camera and spat three times onto the monument. Charges were filed against the man in the police station.

In a radio interview, Geula Amir, mother of Rabin's assassin, Yigal Amir said that she believes the man who spat on Rabin's memorial "didn't commit any crime".

Amir added "When you want to commemorate, you don't need to do big 'tararam' in the square. A person who wishes to remember a person will do so without the show and celebrations. Its a gentile custom, all this big tararam in squares. What do they do there? If there weren't any performances, I guarentee you that only twenty people would show up."

[sharonbn]

As was the case for the past 7 years, I will attend the memorial service for Rabin tomorrow, Saturday in Rabin's square.

[Patriot]

I don't approve of such acts, but I can understand those who did it.
Considering the yearly festival around the anniversary of the murder, coupled with the general attitude of the left towards the right, I can understand those who did it.

The left uses the Rabin anniversary as a time for right-bashing. And not just the extreme-right, every right-wing person, even the very moderate, is accused of the actual murder itself.
Instead of making the anniversary a national memorial day for a slain PM, the memory of Rabin has been confiscated by the left, which uses it as a tool to shut mouths and bash it's opponents (if you dare speak ill of the man or of any left-wing politician, you are immediatly silenced with the cries "INCITEMENT!!!!!").

As newton said, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
The left should take time to think how thay have come to alienate more then half the population and push them into a corner, that they feel the need for such ugly acts.

The left should let go of the memory of Rabin. It's not theirs. It belongs to every Israeli. But as long as they keep it as a cinical political tool, I see no need or point to join the festival.

I will not attend any memorial ceremony (have never attended and will never attend as long as current attitudes continue), and I will not honor his memory, as long as it is a tool in the hands of my political rivals.

[takeo]

patriot, thanks for showing you real self by apologising the vandals... of course the left can claim the legacy of Rabin, after all his was killed after a heavy and dirty anti-peace campaign by the right-wing, and I'm sure you were among them criticising Oslo.

and sharonbm, what will you tell the people who equally attend the memorial, that Rabin was a terrorist apologist who wanted to surrender israel to Arab interests and a partner of the worst terrorist even known to human kind? this is how you look upon the people who want to make peace with arafat and the palestinians, you are more radical and rightwing than olmert!!!!!!!!!!!! and i can't imagine why for God's sake would you attend this memorial!!! please be a bit honest to yourself.

[minusthejihad]

There you go <edited by moderator> ,

attacking a fellow leftist on Israel forum.

with friends like you....

[alexbmn]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! What do you think Sharonb I think the death penalty should be used here. Only for the second time. I mean this is sacriledge and blasphemy all in one.

[takeo]

why?
Don't you consider any negotiating with Arafat and concessions to "Arabs" as surrendering to terrorism? Well tell me how this is any different from Oslo??? Don't be insulted (your insults were by far worse) and don't make a fuss just respond factual please, if you can...

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by takeo
patriot, thanks for showing you real self by apologising the vandals... of course the left can claim the legacy of Rabin, after all his was killed after a heavy and dirty anti-peace campaign by the right-wing, and I'm sure you were among them criticising Oslo.




Oh puh-leeze. If it were anyone else you'd be pissing (rhetorically only, of course) on the grave yourself. Stop being such a self serving jerk.

[Patriot]

Originally posted by takeo
patriot, thanks for showing you real self by apologising the vandals... of course the left can claim the legacy of Rabin, after all his was killed after a heavy and dirty anti-peace campaign by the right-wing, and I'm sure you were among them criticising Oslo.


1. I did not apologize for anyone. I don't think these acts are something to apologize for. Didn't you read and understand what I wrote?

2. Rabin was the PM, not just the leader of a party. He was a national leader, and his memory should belong to all Israelis, not just the left. Once the left confiscated his memory, he excluded everyone else from participating. When PM Benjamin Netanyahu went to Mt. Herzl on the Rabin anniversary and gave a speech there (during the memorial service), he as booed and hissed by leftists. This is just one example of what I mean by "confiscated the memory" and "accused half the population". 99.9% of the right was, and still is, against such acts, but still all the right is accused, and the murder and the memory are used as political tools.

3. I was against Oslo, and criticized those who dragged Israel into that disaster. So I am guilty of murder???

4. Rabin was allegedly shot by one Yigal Amir, who was coerced into the act by SHABAK agent Avishai Raviv. It was Raviv who was charged with the mission to discredit the right. He formed "Eyal", a militant organization who's soul intent is to make provocations and show the right (particularly the settlers) as violent and dangerous. It was Raviv who circulated that famous picture show Rabin in SS uniform. The SHABAK knew all, and directed all. Rabin was not assassinated by a right-wing extremist, but by a SHABAK agent.
Avishai Raviv was charged with a mission to discredit the right and "blacken it's face. And he succeded.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
and sharonbm, what will you tell the people who equally attend the memorial, that Rabin was a terrorist apologist who wanted to surrender israel to Arab interests and a partner of the worst terrorist even known to human kind? this is how you look upon the people who want to make peace with arafat and the palestinians, you are more radical and rightwing than olmert!!!!!!!!!!!! and i can't imagine why for God's sake would you attend this memorial!!! please be a bit honest to yourself.

Planty of Memeers of Knesset are "more radical" then Olmert. Ehud Olmert is fairly center in Israeli politics, as PM Sharon chief political supporter.

Binyamin Natanyahu is quite right wing, and there are 12 Memeber of Knesset who are officialy more right wing then ANY Likud member.

Burg or Sarid, and the rest of the "Geneva gang", on the other hand are extrem fringe far left. Just a little right to the Islamist and communists parties in the Kneset. It is widely acceptable in Israel, that the intrests of these people are not the same as the intrest of Jews and the rest of the citizens of Israel.

[takeo]

Oh puh-leeze. If it were anyone else you'd be pissing (rhetorically only, of course) on the grave yourself. Stop being such a self serving jerk.

I'm not in favor of rabin myself, but at least i can respect him for his accomplishments and won't vandalise his grave (i wouldn't even vandalise the grave of my worst ennemy, a little respect for the death please)


1. I did not apologize for anyone. I don't think these acts are something to apologize for. Didn't you read and understand what I wrote?

i used the word "apologise" because this word is often used to insult me of things i didn't write, you didn't literally said you supported those actions but you can understand the motivations why they did it.

2. Rabin was the PM, not just the leader of a party. He was a national leader, and his memory should belong to all Israelis, not just the left. Once the left confiscated his memory, he excluded everyone else from participating. When PM Benjamin Netanyahu went to Mt. Herzl on the Rabin anniversary and gave a speech there (during the memorial service), he as booed and hissed by leftists. This is just one example of what I mean by "confiscated the memory" and "accused half the population". 99.9% of the right was, and still is, against such acts, but still all the right is accused, and the murder and the memory are used as political tools.

Netanyahu visiting a rabin memorial is like a hamas-leader attaining a memorial for suicide-killer victims...
Netanyahu amongst other rightwing leaders organised the dirty campaign against Oslo which led extreme- right-wingers to the conclusion that it was right for them to kill Rabin. Rabin's policy wasn't supported by the rightwing and so yes the center and leftwing can claim his memory. What's more once he died Netanyahu did his upmost to destroy oslo, in which he succeeded.



3. I was against Oslo, and criticized those who dragged Israel into that disaster. So I am guilty of murder???

No, but you don't havethe right to claim the memory of Rabin or use him as a political tool.

4. Rabin was allegedly shot by one Yigal Amir, who was coerced into the act by SHABAK agent Avishai Raviv. It was Raviv who was charged with the mission to discredit the right. He formed "Eyal", a militant organization who's soul intent is to make provocations and show the right (particularly the settlers) as violent and dangerous. It was Raviv who circulated that famous picture show Rabin in SS uniform. The SHABAK knew all, and directed all. Rabin was not assassinated by a right-wing extremist, but by a SHABAK agent.
Avishai Raviv was charged with a mission to discredit the right and "blacken it's face. And he succeded.

that's right, but he would unlikely have succeeded, felt supported and carried out his act without the major anti-peace campaign by the rightwing which constructed the right environment to carry out this act, that's not what i'm saying but what the wife of Rabin is saying... By the way the killer succeeded in stopping peace, if you think about it, the death of rabin brought netanyahu, he certainly would feel extremely satisfied in his cell.



Planty of Memeers of Knesset are "more radical" then Olmert. Ehud Olmert is fairly center in Israeli politics, as PM Sharon chief political supporter.

perhaps others are even more radical, but Olmert is pretty rightwing himself as well, plenty of evidence for that in his dicriminatory policy in jerusalem, widely criticised not only by the left but by some of his own party-members...

Binyamin Natanyahu is quite right wing, and there are 12 Memeber of Knesset who are officialy more right wing then ANY Likud member.

yes netanyahu is even more rightwing, and he prooved it, but thanks God his current very unpopular policy will blow all his chances to ever win an election once again.


Burg or Sarid, and the rest of the "Geneva gang", on the other hand are extrem fringe far left. Just a little right to the Islamist and communists parties in the Kneset. It is widely acceptable in Israel, that the intrests of these people are not the same as the intrest of Jews and the rest of the citizens of Israel.

they are center to center-left wing, and the Geneva-proposals had, according to polls, the support of a considerable part of the israeli public. They carry the real legacy of Rabin, not netanyahu...

The real left in Israel consists of Gush Shalom and Meretz, those are my political friends, they are today quite marginalised but still succeed in organising manifestations attained by 10's of 1000's of Israeli citizens. (yes i know self-denying terrorist-apologist traitors, blabla)

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
that's right, but he would unlikely have succeeded, felt supported and carried out his act without the major anti-peace campaign by the rightwing which constructed the right environment to carry out this act, that's not what i'm saying but what the wife of Rabin is saying... By the way the killer succeeded in stopping peace, if you think about it, the death of rabin brought netanyahu, he certainly would feel extremely satisfied in his cell. Wrong!
1. Lone killer doesn't need "popular support" to carry out his deed. 2. It is well know that Amir, the alleged killer, was activated by a seacret service agent. 3. killing attempt of the PM, was obviously designed to work as a provocation, part of the Left on going campagine (at the time) to out law the right, and the Likud party. Making the Meretz-Labour and the Arab parties, the only legal parties in Israel. 4. Oddly, the killing attempt was succesful, some plot with in a plot. In the media, one only seas the tip of the iceberg.

The killer of Rabin, couldn't have stopped peace, since "peace" never realy existad. Arafat terror machine worked over time to mass murder Jews, men women and children on racial basis. The left simply ignored the flow of Jewish blood. The left alway had problems with understanding reality. (See the communists - some of them still exist). The right couldn't stop a "peace" that never was there!!!

Natayahu was ELECTED in a DEMOCRATIC ELECTION one the people of Israel came to understand that Oslo process was a deception designed to genocide Jews while allowing absolute, dictatorial control to financial and political groups within the far extrem left, which Rabin was part of it.

I believe that Oslo process was truly designed to overthrough Israeli democracy and center absolute power within an un-elected leftic elite, as phase one of (probably European) conspiracy to genocide all Jews and dismantel the state of Israel.

Rabin was on his way to become Israel's Stalin * Rabin's mother, Red Rosa (or bloody Rosa), was an infamous communist leader, Rabin himself had many communist ideas as a youth, he deliberately left hidden. * Rabin himslef fired the artillary at the ship Alalena, filled with young American Jews with their gear and weapons, ready to fight and liberate Jerusalem in 1948 war of indepandence. * The "peace now" maneuver was first succesfuly used by the Bolshevics to gain absolute control in 1917 Russia. * Before Rabin's murder, there was a huge PR campaign designed to allow the public support for outlawing the right, basicly acussing the right in muteny, and "resistance to peace". Needless to say, the whole stories were totally made up, which filled all the papers and media. Pravda style propaganda campaign. Heavy use of disinformation to tarnish the right. Use of provocator agents, False arrests, torture of Jews in the Shin Beith chambers to extort false statements, ... Exactly like in the Soviet Union. * Only today, we deal with a scandale most leftic papers and left media doing their best to concil: The Mizrahi scandal. Mizrahi is a top police chief, who conducted illegal listening and survilance to spy after the Likud election campaign or to bog the Likud leader down, with petty trails and false accusations, so to destroy political careers in Likud politicians and discredit the right all togather. Part of the scandle, is the close and heavy backing to the state autornies, communist judges and far left lawers. Israel legal system is known to be hijacked by anti zionist leftic extremist, who enslave the system to their evil needs.

Had the Oslo process fully matirialized, Israel was to become a full soviet police state, with the Shin Beith as a version of the East German Schtasi. Following Rabin's murder the left contiued to accuse the right in Rabin death and collaborate with Arabs.

Jews understood it, and marginlized the Left. Anybody in Israel today (other then Jorge and Sharonbn) know how dangerus and undemocratic the left is for the continunity of the state of Israel. Even the Labour had splitted in two between those who practicly loyal to Zionism, and those who hate Zionism and long to see Israel as a communist state or non existant all togather. (with most of Jews genocides by Arabs).

perhaps others are even more radical, but Olmert is pretty rightwing himself as well, plenty of evidence for that in his dicriminatory policy in jerusalem, widely criticised not only by the left but by some of his own party-members... Critizing Olmert in chiefly on his support for Barak in 1999, against the intrests of the people and party, just to prevent Bibi another term. Olmert his labled as traitor of the party to this day. Next term, Bibi will regain office and punish Olmert the way he deserves.

yes netanyahu is even more rightwing, and he prooved it, but thanks God his current very unpopular policy will blow all his chances to ever win an election once again. Natanyahu power base is strong, and getting stronger. Bibi has HUGE support in his reforms designed to weak the labour unions and liberate and modernize the economy. Should he succseed, Bibe will become Israel's greates Minister of Trasury in Israel's history.

they are center to center-left wing, and the Geneva-proposals had, according to polls, the support of a considerable part of the israeli public. They carry the real legacy of Rabin, not netanyahu... About polls: 1. the polls are known to be politicaly treated by leftics. The results of polls are always fixed so to support leftic claims. Polls, in Israel, ALWAYS show the opposite! ALWAYS!

The real left in Israel consists of Gush Shalom and Meretz, those are my political friends, they are today quite marginalised but still succeed in organising manifestations attained by 10's of 1000's of Israeli citizens. (yes i know self-denying terrorist-apologist traitors, blabla) [/B] There is a great gap between Gush Shalom who openly support Arab terrorism and genocide of Jews, as much as the creation of a communist state instead of Israel. Meretz, although getting closer to Gush Shalom, keeps its pro terror agenda hidden. Officialy, Meretz are not communists, only socialists.

[takeo]

Gilgamesh, are you serious or are you just a parody?

"Rabin was on his way to become Israel's Stalin * Rabin's mother, Red Rosa (or bloody Rosa), was an infamous communist leader, Rabin himself had many communist ideas as a youth, he deliberately left hidden. * Rabin himslef fired the artillary at the ship Alalena, filled with young American Jews with their gear and weapons, ready to fight and liberate Jerusalem in 1948 war of indepandence. * The "peace now" maneuver was first succesfuly used by the Bolshevics to gain absolute control in 1917 Russia. * Before Rabin's murder, there was a huge PR campaign designed to allow the public support for outlawing the right, basicly acussing the right in muteny, and "resistance to peace". Needless to say, the whole stories were totally made up, which filled all the papers and media. Pravda style propaganda campaign. Heavy use of disinformation to tarnish the right. Use of provocator agents, False arrests, torture of Jews in the Shin Beith chambers to extort false statements, ... Exactly like in the Soviet Union. * Only today, we deal with a scandale most leftic papers and left media doing their best to concil: The Mizrahi scandal. Mizrahi is a top police chief, who conducted illegal listening and survilance to spy after the Likud election campaign or to bog the Likud leader down, with petty trails and false accusations, so to destroy political careers in Likud politicians and discredit the right all togather. Part of the scandle, is the close and heavy backing to the state autornies, communist judges and far left lawers. Israel legal system is known to be hijacked by anti zionist leftic extremist, who enslave the system to their evil needs."

if only this was true... ;) In fact i have nothing to ad to this, it pretty much speaks for itself... this is a clear indication of how the rightwing in Israel tries to kill peace with the palestinians with grotesque propaganda and lies. It also gives some good insight in the world and mentality of the ultra rightwing of Israel...

Natanyahu power base is strong, and getting stronger. Bibi has HUGE support in his reforms designed to weak the labour unions and liberate and modernize the economy. Should he succseed, Bibe will become Israel's greates Minister of Trasury in Israel's history.

Huge support, i don't think so according to all the reports i have read and the polls (oh, i forget those are made up by leftists who want to genocide all Jews, i'm sorry i forgot)

There is a great gap between Gush Shalom who openly support Arab terrorism and genocide of Jews, as much as the creation of a communist state instead of Israel. Meretz, although getting closer to Gush Shalom, keeps its pro terror agenda hidden. Officialy, Meretz are not communists, only socialists.

:rolleyes: Gush Shalom want the genocide of all Jews as much as rabin was comparable to Stalin...
And yes Gush shalom is more leftwing than Meretz, because they do not have to be elected and dare to say what's taboo in Israel, in other words that the right of return is legitimate and that this issue will have to be confronted one day or another. But they both have exactly the same opinion concerning the occupied territories.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by takeo
Gilgamesh, are you serious or are you just a parody?

"Rabin was on his way to become Israel's Stalin * Rabin's mother, Red Rosa (or bloody Rosa), was an infamous communist leader, Rabin himself had many communist ideas as a youth, he deliberately left hidden. * Rabin himslef fired the artillary at the ship Alalena, filled with young American Jews with their gear and weapons, ready to fight and liberate Jerusalem in 1948 war of indepandence. * The "peace now" maneuver was first succesfuly used by the Bolshevics to gain absolute control in 1917 Russia. * Before Rabin's murder, there was a huge PR campaign designed to allow the public support for outlawing the right, basicly acussing the right in muteny, and "resistance to peace". Needless to say, the whole stories were totally made up, which filled all the papers and media. Pravda style propaganda campaign. Heavy use of disinformation to tarnish the right. Use of provocator agents, False arrests, torture of Jews in the Shin Beith chambers to extort false statements, ... Exactly like in the Soviet Union. * Only today, we deal with a scandale most leftic papers and left media doing their best to concil: The Mizrahi scandal. Mizrahi is a top police chief, who conducted illegal listening and survilance to spy after the Likud election campaign or to bog the Likud leader down, with petty trails and false accusations, so to destroy political careers in Likud politicians and discredit the right all togather. Part of the scandle, is the close and heavy backing to the state autornies, communist judges and far left lawers. Israel legal system is known to be hijacked by anti zionist leftic extremist, who enslave the system to their evil needs." All the fact I've written are true. Red Rosa was Rabin mother, and she was infamouse communist leader. This is a fact. So is the fact Rabin fired an artillary at American Jews upon the ship Altalena, and so are the other things i've written. Wait for other Israelis to support my facts. The fact you're, takeo, ignorant or communist does not alter reality or history.

Huge support, i don't think so according to all the reports i have read and the polls (oh, i forget those are made up by leftists who want to genocide all Jews, i'm sorry i forgot) Yap, huge support!. The unions who destroy the private business, are much more hated. Bibi reforms seemed vital and well due.

:rolleyes: Gush Shalom want the genocide of all Jews as much as rabin was comparable to Stalin...
And yes Gush shalom is more leftwing than Meretz, because they do not have to be elected and dare to say what's taboo in Israel, in other words that the right of return is legitimate and that this issue will have to be confronted one day or another. But they both have exactly the same opinion concerning the occupied territories. The "right of return" is synanom with genocide of all Israeli Jews. Arabs claim so, for over fifty years. Do you accuse your Arab allies, takeo, as liers? or you consider them them as childish underdevelped saveges, whose word on this matters, mean nothing? You either a racist or evil, for ignoring Arab claims in regared for Israelis Jews.

Gush Shalom is anti Zionist. They resist Israel right to exist. This is a call for genocide. The very thing, Zionism and Jewish self defence made to prevent.

The ruling majority of Jews in Israel are zionist. Gush Shalom isn't margional for nothing.

[Patriot]

Originally posted by takeo

Netanyahu visiting a rabin memorial is like a hamas-leader attaining a memorial for suicide-killer victims...
Netanyahu amongst other rightwing leaders organised the dirty campaign against Oslo which led extreme- right-wingers to the conclusion that it was right for them to kill Rabin. Rabin's policy wasn't supported by the rightwing and so yes the center and leftwing can claim his memory. What's more once he died Netanyahu did his upmost to destroy oslo, in which he succeeded.


At the risk of being blocked here - You, Takeo, are <edited by moderator> . Anyone comparing Netanyahu (or any other PM) to arab murderors is (a) <edited by moderator> ; (b) <edited by moderator> ; and (c) <edited by moderator> .

This is the last time I recognize your existance here.

[wellofvow]

Hi Patriot. Welcome to the forum. A word of advice: Don't bother even reading Takeo's messages, much less wasting time responding to them. Yes, he is a total idiot, very fond of instructing Jews and Israelis on "the truth" of history - the truth being pure fairytales.

Let's get real.

It was definitely ugly to put swastikas on a memorial, and graffiti like "Kahana was right" makes me sick to my stomach - BUT it was NOT a grave that was vandalized, but a MEMORIAL. Spare me semantic nitpicking that a grave is a type of memorial - yes, but not really. Bottom line, a Jewish grave is on consecrated land and prayers are to be recited at a grave at least once a year, while a "memorial" is located on a spot that is designated in memory of some event.

IMO, there should be a huge difference in punishment between any lowlife who vandalizes a grave and a lowlife who vandalizes a memorial.

I agree with those Israelis who do NOT believe in the sainthood of Rabin. I voted for Rabin because his platform was for a firm line with Israel's enemies. Politically, Rabin certainly turned out to be no giant intellect, and allowed himself to be impressed and led by the nose by the narcissic, power-mad Peres. Personally, Rabin completely lost me when he yelled at Americans to "go back where you came from". For me, an American immigrant, this was completely beyond the pale.

I hoped that Oslo would work, and didn't give up on it until that other narcissic jerk Barak blew it. I really believe that most Israelis feel and felt as I do.

The dolorous memorial ceremonies every year, all over the country, at Rabin's assassination date bother me a lot. It smacks of Catholic saint-days. Rabin was very, very, very far from a saint. And his late wife and daughter are pretty disgusting in their promotion of this image.

I also think that we should let go of Rabin. His murder was a horrific event, but IMO, so is every terrorist murder. I believe that EVERY human life is precious. The elaborate memorial ceremonies every November are starting to look like a PR effort to the rest of the world, which makes me VERY uncomfortable.

[sharonbn]

just came back from the city square, where the memorial rally was held. They say some 100,000 - 150,000 were there, the biggest attendence since the first memorial event in 96. There were speaches and songs, one of which was performed by a duo - Arab and Israeli. The audience was of all ages and walks of life. Many members of youth organizations were there in their uniforms. People lit candles and held signs advocatins peace over violence.
It was a very emotional event for me.

[wellofvow]

I respect everyone's right to worship as they please.

BUT:

I just would like to ask - does anyone remember the date of Herzl's death? Ben-Gurion's? Weizmann's?

Sorry, I don't get it.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by wellofvow
I respect everyone's right to worship as they please.

BUT:

I just would like to ask - does anyone remember the date of Herzl's death? Ben-Gurion's? Weizmann's?

Sorry, I don't get it.

I bet you know the date of Kennedy's death (even *I* know it) and I bet you don't know the date of LBJ's death, or Eisenhower's death (be honest, I could google biographies on the persons you listed in 2 minutes)

and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a "Lincoln day" annual event in the US?

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I bet you know the date of Kennedy's death (even *I* know it) and I bet you don't know the date of LBJ's death, or Eisenhower's death (be honest, I could google biographies on the persons you listed in 2 minutes)

and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a "Lincoln day" annual event in the US?

As for Kennedy's death, I remember not only the date, but that it was 2 pm and I was on my way to chemistry class. I was dazed for hours. I don't recall a sentence of Mr. Duvall's chem lesson, but remember vividly the remarks of a classmate who was from the John Birch Society.

OK, you're absolutely right about the other "yarzeits" of famous Israeli figures.

But the point I want to make IS about the idolization of an assassinated national leader. There was NO gala memorial on November 22, EVER, national or local. (There IS, however, Martin Luther King Day).

No, there never was a "Lincoln Day event". When I was in school, Lincoln's *birthday* was a school holiday, NOT the day of his assassination. Now I understand that Lincoln's birthday and Washington's birthday, which were separate public school holidays, have been meshed into a one-day "Presidents' Day" public school holiday.

In the US, on November 22, there were and are NO huge memorials or rallies. AND few Americans even know that another president was shot to death in office, back in the 19th century. Google that. :)

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by wellofvow
As for Kennedy's death, I remember not only the date, but that it was 2 pm and I was on my way to chemistry class. I was dazed for hours. I don't recall a sentence of Mr. Duvall's chem lesson, but remember vividly the remarks of a classmate who was from the John Birch Society.

OK, you're absolutely right about the other "yarzeits" of famous Israeli figures.

But the point I want to make IS about the idolization of an assassinated national leader. There was NO gala memorial on November 22, EVER, national or local. (There IS, however, Martin Luther King Day).

No, there never was a "Lincoln Day event". When I was in school, Lincoln's *birthday* was a school holiday, NOT the day of his assassination. Now I understand that Lincoln's birthday and Washington's birthday, which were separate public school holidays, have been meshed into a one-day "Presidents' Day" public school holiday.

In the US, on November 22, there were and are NO huge memorials or rallies. AND few Americans even know that another president was shot to death in office, back in the 19th century. Google that. :)

I agree that the idolization of Rabin is unnecessary. It is a human trend to idolize someone whom you believe "died for the cause".

However, the decision to commemorate Rabin's assasination has another reason - so this event will be remembered by people and maybe a similar tragedy may be avoided in the future.

Maybe if the US had a Kennedy memorial day, there wouldn't be an assasination attempt at Ronald Reagan. I could be way way off course here, but I believe its extremely important to mark the occasion and remember the event - a political murder - even more than the murdered person.

[tandem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Earlier this week, Shaike Levi, an Israeli entertainer and host of this year's memorial service was being interviewed for Channel 10 news in front of Rabin's memorial in Rabin square when a passer-by walked in front of the camera and spat three times onto the monument. Charges were filed against the man in the police station.
is that the same sheike levy from the gashashim??

while i believe that spitting on the memorial is wrong and disrespectful, i can understand the frustration some israelis have towards rabin. i mean, look at the situation in israel today. it's never been this bad. many israelis believe that had rabin, peres, beilin, and the rest of the liberal cronies not signed the oslo accords the overall situation in israel would be better today. the peace accords have brought anything but peace to israelis.

[Gilgamesh]

There is a precedence. Yom Gdalyahu Ben Ahikam, who was murdered for ideological reasons, roughly 28 centuries ago. His death day follows Rosh ha Shana and considred a fasting day.

Gdalyahu was a Jew, chosen to be the Babylonian's governor of Judea. His murder promoted the first exile. Had he remained in place, the rebulding of Judea could've started in his time.

The problem with the whorship of Rabin, is not only the fact it reminds people of the Stalinist era in USSR, and not only that it against the spirit of Judaism.

The chief problem is, that the Left hijacked it so to gain false moral highground to bash the entire right wing of Israel. Not only politicians but also common voters. It is an attempt to use a breaking of a Taboo by lone murderer, to break the same Taboo all over again: delegitimize and political persecution of the majority of the Jewish voters. Rabin ambition to make peace is named the reason for the murder. This is a simple lie! The reason for Rabin murder is the "Oslo procedure", which by then was obvious not the majority as the opposite of peace process. The "Oslo treaties" were enforced on the people, undemocraticly, and cost many lives by then, and were obvious to cost more lives in the future.

The motive for the murder is not "preventing peace" but preventing Oslo. The left uses Rabin murder to make the linkage between Oslo and peace. This linkage is a lie!

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I agree that the idolization of Rabin is unnecessary. It is a human trend to idolize someone whom you believe "died for the cause".

However, the decision to commemorate Rabin's assasination has another reason - so this event will be remembered by people and maybe a similar tragedy may be avoided in the future.

Maybe if the US had a Kennedy memorial day, there wouldn't be an assasination attempt at Ronald Reagan. I could be way way off course here, but I believe its extremely important to mark the occasion and remember the event - a political murder - even more than the murdered person.

Sorry, I find it difficult to buy into these arguments intellectually.

Although the actual murderer is known, the background of Rabin's assassination is still obscure, at least for me, as in WHAT "cause" did Rabin really "die for".

It is NOT a "human trend" to idolize a person in a modern, supposedly sophisticated and democratic society like Israel. Were you comfortable with "David (Levy), Melech Yisrael", many years ago? I sure wasn't! The Rabin memorial galas are not at all that far removed. The David Levy hysterical rallies were political, and so is the Rabin sainthood.

The Kennedy assassination was horrifically traumatic to Americans, and he was enormously popular. He obviously died for a cause - but there has been NO worship. His memorial is his grave at Arlington Cemetery. Rabin is buried in Jerusalem. Visiting Rabin's grave 2 months after his murder moved me, just as finally visiting the Kennedy grave/memorial at Arlington 23 years after his murder moved me.

Anyone out there from Dallas? Does Dallas have some huge memorial to Kennedy like Rabin Square in Tel Aviv, where he was shot?

I quite agree with you about "remembering" the event and not the person. However, Judaism has a problem with this. Events are remembered as events, like Pesach (deliverance from Egypt) and Simchat Torah (giving of the Torah). Yes, there is Taanit Esther (Fast of Esther), but it is closely connected with Purim, as other fast days named for someone are closely connected with other holidays "in place".

Judaism remembers *people* at the anniversaries of their death at the gravesight with quiet reflections and memories, not as political rallies with popular singers. It is just too gross for me. Someone who truly feels that he suffered a loss when someone dies for a cause does not need a memorial rally to grieve this loss.

I see no reason whatsoever why turning the Rabin assassination into a huge, glitzy, political rally every year should deter future political violence. Seems to me that it would probably do just the opposite, listening to much of what comes out of the mouths of the Rabin family.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
The problem with the whorship of Rabin, is not only the fact it reminds people of the Stalinist era in USSR, and not only that it against the spirit of Judaism.

The chief problem is, that the Left hijacked it so to gain false moral highground to bash the entire right wing of Israel. Not only politicians but also common voters. It is an attempt to use a breaking of a Taboo by lone murderer, to break the same Taboo all over again: delegitimize and political persecution of the majority of the Jewish voters. Rabin ambition to make peace is named the reason for the murder. This is a simple lie! The reason for Rabin murder is the "Oslo procedure", which by then was obvious not the majority as the opposite of peace process. The "Oslo treaties" were enforced on the people, undemocraticly, and cost many lives by then, and were obvious to cost more lives in the future.

The motive for the murder is not "preventing peace" but preventing Oslo. The left uses Rabin murder to make the linkage between Oslo and peace. This linkage is a lie!

Say, whatever happened to the national referendum we were promised? Remember - the Jewish Homeland belonged to all Israelis? Before giving up on land, the entire population was to be consulted?

I was always so impressed by the fact that in Israel, one simply CANNOT "buy" land. One "leases" land for 99 years. Is this being used as a cop-out for not having the referendum that was promised?

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by wellofvow
Sorry, I find it difficult to buy into these arguments intellectually.

Although the actual murderer is known, the background of Rabin's assassination is still obscure, at least for me, as in WHAT "cause" did Rabin really "die for".

It is NOT a "human trend" to idolize a person in a modern, supposedly sophisticated and democratic society like Israel. Were you comfortable with "David (Levy), Melech Yisrael", many years ago? I sure wasn't! The Rabin memorial galas are not at all that far removed. The David Levy hysterical rallies were political, and so is the Rabin sainthood.

The Kennedy assassination was horrifically traumatic to Americans, and he was enormously popular. He obviously died for a cause - but there has been NO worship. His memorial is his grave at Arlington Cemetery. Rabin is buried in Jerusalem. Visiting Rabin's grave 2 months after his murder moved me, just as finally visiting the Kennedy grave/memorial at Arlington 23 years after his murder moved me.

Anyone out there from Dallas? Does Dallas have some huge memorial to Kennedy like Rabin Square in Tel Aviv, where he was shot?

I quite agree with you about "remembering" the event and not the person. However, Judaism has a problem with this. Events are remembered as events, like Pesach (deliverance from Egypt) and Simchat Torah (giving of the Torah). Yes, there is Taanit Esther (Fast of Esther), but it is closely connected with Purim, as other fast days named for someone are closely connected with other holidays "in place".

Judaism remembers *people* at the anniversaries of their death at the gravesight with quiet reflections and memories, not as political rallies with popular singers. It is just too gross for me. Someone who truly feels that he suffered a loss when someone dies for a cause does not need a memorial rally to grieve this loss.

I see no reason whatsoever why turning the Rabin assassination into a huge, glitzy, political rally every year should deter future political violence. Seems to me that it would probably do just the opposite, listening to much of what comes out of the mouths of the Rabin family.

First, I said that idolizing is a human trait. I didn't say I support it. Your example of David Levy (I remember more vividly the "Arik, king of Israel!" shouts) only serves to further strengthen my point.

People are looking for icons, for heroes for role models. Leaders who were murdered are prime candidates to become "heroes" or "martyrs" - and with the passing of time they are glorified beyond real life. That may be a negative phenomena but its still is a common human trait. Even Jews get infected by it.

The grave of Baruch Goldstein sits amidst a beautiful garden that serves as a memorial site. Each year, a group of Hebron settlers attempt to hold a memorial service at his grave site (the police stops them so they commit the memorial service outside the garden.)

Regarding remembrance of people and events:
The state of Israel marks the casualties of its wars in an annual ceremony that includes a nation-wide silent moment signaled by sirens (two moments actually).

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by wellofvow
Say, whatever happened to the national referendum we were promised? Remember - the Jewish Homeland belonged to all Israelis? Before giving up on land, the entire population was to be consulted?

I was always so impressed by the fact that in Israel, one simply CANNOT "buy" land. One "leases" land for 99 years. Is this being used as a cop-out for not having the referendum that was promised?

The national referendum was promised by Ehud Barak in his election campaign in 99.
The referendum was supposed to take place after a final peace agreement is signed with the Palestinians. The referendum was supposed to replace the voting on the agreement in the Knesset.

The law regarding land lease exists since 1954. that's a little bit before the referendum was mentioned...

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by sharonbn
The national referendum was promised by Ehud Barak in his election campaign in 99.
The referendum was supposed to take place after a final peace agreement is signed with the Palestinians. The referendum was supposed to replace the voting on the agreement in the Knesset.

The law regarding land lease exists since 1954. that's a little bit before the referendum was mentioned...

Could you please post a reference to Barak being the first to mention a national referendum? I thought that this was touted for the first time just after the signing of the Oslo Accords......

I apologize for not being clear when I threw in that bit about "buying" land in Israel. When I write here on the forum, it tends to go into stream-of-consciousness.

I didn't intend a direct connection between the referendum and "buying" land in Israel. It just suddenly caught me as ironic that a referendum was proposed before surrendering land to the PA when nobody in Israel actually owns any land.

We were both Americans, and used to the notion that in America, when you buy a house or apartment, you buy it. It is yours. So we were bemused to be told when we "bought" our first apartment in Israel that we were merely leasing the 94 square meters for 99 years. We were told that all land in Israel does not belong to individuals, but to the Jewish People, present and future. We assumed that after 99 years, the lease could be renewed.....

I do not know anything about the land lease law of 1954. What is that about?

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by sharonbn
First, I said that idolizing is a human trait. I didn't say I support it. Your example of David Levy (I remember more vividly the "Arik, king of Israel!" shouts) only serves to further strengthen my point.

People are looking for icons, for heroes for role models. Leaders who were murdered are prime candidates to become "heroes" or "martyrs" - and with the passing of time they are glorified beyond real life. That may be a negative phenomena but its still is a common human trait. Even Jews get infected by it.

The grave of Baruch Goldstein sits amidst a beautiful garden that serves as a memorial site. Each year, a group of Hebron settlers attempt to hold a memorial service at his grave site (the police stops them so they commit the memorial service outside the garden.)

Regarding remembrance of people and events:
The state of Israel marks the casualties of its wars in an annual ceremony that includes a nation-wide silent moment signaled by sirens (two moments actually).

I believe that the making icons and saints out of people is a trait of a weak and needy character. Early followers of Jesus? Shabtai Tzvi?

Yes, I remember "Arik, king of Israel", but that was just imitating the David Levy business. I mean, everyone knows the ditty and does the hora to "David, melech Yisrael, chai, chai, vekayam...." Yuck.

OK, you wrote that glorification of a "martyr" is negative. I agree. That is certainly what the terrorists have been doing for ages and ages. I also find a "memorial" to Baruch Goldstein repugnant personally.

And this is exactly my point: I find the memorial rally each year for Rabin repulsive.

Putting Memorial Day or Holocaust Day on the same level is completely off-track. The IDF fallen and the victims of the Holocaust are not individuals who are worshipped and iconized as individuals.

In synagogue, traditional prayers are said for "the leaders of the State". Individual names of the PM and MKs are NOT mentioned. Yizkor services mention those who perished for "kiddush haShem", and do NOT mention individuals. The business of glorifying personalities is recent (and not a good sign of stability).

[sharonbn]

more defamation of Rabin's monument

Ynet - Nov. 3rd -
Iris Cohen, 38, from Jerusalem was arrested this afternoon (Monday) while writing sloagans on the commemorative plate on Rabin's monument. She wrote "Damn Peres" and "damn Dalia Rabin" (daughter of Ytzhak Rabin and Knesset Member). On Rabin's pictures hanging near by, Cohen sprayed "Rabin is a murderer" and "Rabin gave the order to kill Jews".

People who noticed the act called the police officer stationed in near by Tel Aviv city hall. He detained the woman for questioning. shortly after, a police car picked Cohen and led her to a police station where she was interogated by special team established after the recent wave of vandalism.

Yesterday morning a city hall employee was caught spitting on Rabin's monument. He was fired from his job and underwent police investigation. He was released after the investigation and was committed to 5 days of house arrest and ban from coming within the vicinity of the monument for 14 days.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by wellofvow
Could you please post a reference to Barak being the first to mention a national referendum? I thought that this was touted for the first time just after the signing of the Oslo Accords......


This is what I found

April 12, 1999 - Barak promises referendum on final-status deal
http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/12.Apr.1999/News/Article-8.html

December 13, 1999 - Barak pledges national referendum (on Israeli-Syrian agreement)
http://edition.cnn.com/1999/WORLD/meast/12/13/israel.syria/

There is no reference to Rabin and national referendum or Oslo accord and national referendum.

[danholo]

One of the biggest problems in modern times in the Jewish community is that even we can't get along with each other. I find this dispicable. Some looneys are even justifying Rabin's murder. What did it help? Seriously?

I say murder is murder is murder. This is an Israeli/Jewish saying. Shouldn't Amir who murdered Rabin and who support his actions understand that?

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by sharonbn
more defamation of Rabin's monument

Ynet - Nov. 3rd -
Iris Cohen, 38, from Jerusalem was arrested this afternoon (Monday) while writing sloagans on the commemorative plate on Rabin's monument. She wrote "Damn Peres" and "damn Dalia Rabin" (daughter of Ytzhak Rabin and Knesset Member). On Rabin's pictures hanging near by, Cohen sprayed "Rabin is a murderer" and "Rabin gave the order to kill Jews".

People who noticed the act called the police officer stationed in near by Tel Aviv city hall. He detained the woman for questioning. shortly after, a police car picked Cohen and led her to a police station where she was interogated by special team established after the recent wave of vandalism.

Yesterday morning a city hall employee was caught spitting on Rabin's monument. He was fired from his job and underwent police investigation. He was released after the investigation and was committed to 5 days of house arrest and ban from coming within the vicinity of the monument for 14 days.

Thanks for posting this.

Honestly, I'm not sure what bothers me more - the actual deeds or the reactions to them.

The deeds are troubling in that people seem to be going out of their way to make a point of their feelings in an ugly, anti-social, and very public manner.

The reactions are troubling in their over-reaction. Being fired from your job for spitting on a "monument"???? What would happen if someone tripped near the monument, fell and got a bloody knee, and blood got on the holy monument? Would this person also be hauled in for police interrogation and lose her job? I can see people turning in their enemies for police interrogation. This kind of over-reaction will inevitably lead to loss of civil rights, and lots of lawsuits.

This is getting entirely out of hand.

I think that the police have better things to do than protect monuments from spit. Further, is this the only monument that is under "police protection" (aside from the Baruch Goldstein site)? The country is FULL of memorials and monuments - are the police devoting manpower to guarding all of them? What about protecting citizens from terrorists, rape, mugging, burglary, assault, and so on?

Many Israelis take their politics very seriously - OK, even obsessively. It should be expected by any politician that once you push an agenda or policy or icon-worship down everyone's throats, there is bound to be a reaction to this by those folks who believe differently.

I am NOT condoning these people's behavior. I think it is ugly and puerile. However, as a social scientist, I can easily see why it is happening.

[Mediocrates]

It's probably not so different here. JFK's eternal flame is sacrosanct. If anyone could possibly get past the 24/7 honor guard and deface it they would probably be looking at a few years in the Federal Pen.


We always honor people we can't look in the eye.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by wellofvow
The reactions are troubling in their over-reaction. Being fired from your job for spitting on a "monument"???? What would happen if someone tripped near the monument, fell and got a bloody knee, and blood got on the holy monument? Would this person also be hauled in for police interrogation and lose her job? I can see people turning in their enemies for police interrogation. This kind of over-reaction will inevitably lead to loss of civil rights, and lots of lawsuits.

Regarding loss of job, its up to the empoyer's decision. If the employee feels the cause for the job termination is unjast, he/she may sue for damages in a court of law.

Regarding police investigation, its not up to civilians to decide who gets interogated and who does not. Its up to police officials. If a person files charges for "a defamation of memorial monument", the police oficer decides whether or not this charge merits an investigation - not the charging person.

I hope you don't suggest that Israeli law enforcement organizations and/or the Israeli justice systems are politically biased.

What reaction would you feel is correct for someone who defiles a monument? a slap on the wrist?

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Regarding loss of job, its up to the empoyer's decision. If the employee feels the cause for the job termination is unjast, he/she may sue for damages in a court of law. I wish it was possible. Yet the courts fear the leftic media and will rather secrifice the lives of several civilians over secrifice of their own career. Judges are loyal to the party line, instead to their job description.

Regarding police investigation, its not up to civilians to decide who gets interogated and who does not. Its up to police officials. If a person files charges for "a defamation of memorial monument", the police oficer decides whether or not this charge merits an investigation - not the charging person. How many Mizrahi are there, in the police? Police officials whose promotions seem to be conected to certain well connected far left politicians.

I hope you don't suggest that Israeli law enforcement organizations and/or the Israeli justice systems are politically biased. What reaction would you feel is correct for someone who defiles a monument? a slap on the wrist?

Element in the Police and Israel's justice system, aspecialy the Attorney General are politicaly biased against the center and right. Its a known fact the high courts and the general auternies are hijacked by far left extremists, some of them, admit to be anti zionisnt. It's a fact!

Aharon Barak, the president of the high court is known to prefer Arab lives over the lives of our civilians and soldiers, by interfering with military decisions. Some battles are seemed to be commanded from the high court, by lawers, instead of army officers. Every Israel knows that.

There were times, when even critisim against the Oslo process was considered ilegal on grounds of incitement to violance. Israelis were constantly harrased by police for their political views. Luckly, that process had stopped, once Bibi was elected.
There where times, after Rabin death, that critism of Arafat was considered incitement of the kind which causes Rabin's death.

Same old accusations were hurled on the last convention in Kings of Israel square, few days ago. Only no one cares no more what Dalia Rabin thinks of us. She can go back to Europe, and recount her bribe money she gets from Chirak for bashing Zionism, as far as most of us are concerned.

[sharonbn]

and I thoght that conspiracy theories were a gentile custom...
the courts fear the "leftic media",
police officials who are connected to "far left" politicians (and I thought we were in the opposition for the past two years),
the AG is biased against the center and right (the same AG that dropped charges against Netanyahu in several cases),
head of supreme court "prefer Arab lives" ...
oh, and "every Israeli knows that" as well...

perhaps the left is a secret cult that is meeting in some secret place and planning how to rule the country? or the world? perhaps we can get the protocols of their elders...

Well, Gilgamesh, not "every Israeli" is as paranoic or believer of conspiracy theories as you obviously are. The **only** Israeli groups that makes these wild accusations are the messianic Arie Deri followers and the far extreme right in the settlements a.k.a "the youth of the hills" which was even condemned by Yesha leadership.

oh, and if you complain about the left bashing on the right - if this post of yours is not bashing 'par-excelance' I don't know what is.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
and I thoght that conspiracy theories were a gentile custom...
the courts fear the "leftic media",
police officials who are connected to "far left" politicians (and I thought we were in the opposition for the past two years),
the AG is biased against the center and right (the same AG that dropped charges against Netanyahu in several cases),
head of supreme court "prefer Arab lives" ...
oh, and "every Israeli knows that" as well... AG droped charges, simply because he had nothing to file charges about. The whole idea was to persecute Natanyahu, destroy his life, humilate and halt his political career.

perhaps the left is a secret cult that is meeting in some secret place and planning how to rule the country? or the world? perhaps we can get the protocols of their elders...
The left isn't a cult. Its a Bolshevic maffia, which subvert Israel's democracy on regular basis!!!

Well, Gilgamesh, not "every Israeli" is as paranoic or believer of conspiracy theories as you obviously are. The **only** Israeli groups that makes these wild accusations are the messianic Arie Deri followers and the far extreme right in the settlements a.k.a "the youth of the hills" which was even condemned by Yesha leadership.
Yeah, I'm the only "Paranoid", me and Ma'ariv.
See Dror Ben Yamini article: "Rule of law Gang". (http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/579/208.html).

oh, and if you complain about the left bashing on the right - if this post of yours is not bashing 'par-excelance' I don't know what is. Oh... I see, suddenly I'm equal with Shimon Peres or Yuval Rabin or Dalia Rabin who mud the right and true Zionism day and night. Worse: These guys still blame the entire center-right for the death of their father, as if, any one who fails to fully co-operate with the "Oslo process" ragime, is automaticly inciter to violance and "enemy of peace". The Rabins have turned the "enemy of peace" into "enemy of the people". Oddly enough, the Hammas or Islamist Jihad, not even Arafat's El Aqtsa brigades are the "enemy of peace", rather anybody who isn't Meretz!

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
AG droped charges, simply because he had nothing to file charges about. The whole idea was to persecute Natanyahu, destroy his life, humilate and halt his political career.
Not everyone shares your analysis:
http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/23.Apr.1997/Opinion/Article-1.html

(April 23) -- Whatever the political fallout of the Bar-On Affair, one thing is clear: Attorney-General Rubinstein did not bring forth an indictment against Prime Minister Netanyahu and Justice Minister Hanegbi for one reason only: the lack of a "smoking gun." Rubinstein called it the "black box," after the device which enables air-crash investigators to understand what went fatally wrong.

However, his metaphor is misleading, for black boxes are dredged up after we've seen the disaster; in this case, we need the evidence that indeed a moral-political disaster has occurred. Thus, the smoking-gun metaphor - first used in the Watergate case - is more appropriate.

Despite the prime minister's public-relations spin - "the attorney-general has concluded that I am not guilty of any crime" - a close reading of the public report shows the reverse to be the case. Elyakim Rubinstein has shown admirable circumspection in not bringing forth a bill of indictment only because the police did not succeed in incontrovertibly "getting the goods" on the prime minister, and not because there is no evidence of malfeasance. There has been no exoneration: The prime minister has been let off the hook by the skin of his teeth.

and I guess when AG drops charges against Barak et al its because he's biased towards them, right? how convinient.
The fact that AG did prosecute Barak's deputy, Shimon Sheves, is besides the point. Don't ever let the facts get in the way of making your point...

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
The left isn't a cult. Its a Bolshevic maffia, which subvert Israel's democracy on regular basis!!!
I'm not going to dignify this with an answer. I will only say that between the two of us, you resrted to bashing and smearing your political opponents. I never called the right wing mafia or similar low level language. I think it shows more than you are willing to acknowledge.

and it does not make you "equal" with Peres, Rabin, et al. They also never used this kind of language. Leftists never ever defailed zabotinsky's or Begin's grave. not even the most extreme ones. Leftists never ever used murder and violence as political tools. Leftists don't use foul language in political debates, so no, you're not "equal" with leftist leaders. you need to examine how you express yourself and your opposition to your political rivals first.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Yeah, I'm the only "Paranoid", me and Ma'ariv.
See Dror Ben Yamini article: "Rule of law Gang". (http://images.maariv.co.il/channels/1/ART/579/208.html).
but I thought the media is "leftic" - so how come you're qouting them??? maybe not all media is "leftic"?

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Not everyone shares your analysis: True, some are leftics!

and I guess when AG drops charges against Barak et al its because he's biased towards them, right? how convinient.
The fact that AG did prosecute Barak's deputy, Shimon Sheves, is besides the point. Don't ever let the facts get in the way of making your point... As for facts:
1. Shimon Sheves was barak depudy but Rabin's bureau chief. A role he explotied to become a millionire on doubtful circumstances.
2. The media buried very quickly the story.
3. Connections between Rabin and Sheves, over the brib and weapons deals, were hushed and supressed
4. The trail itself was in closed doors. Strangly, nobody leaked anything!
5. Does ANYBODY knows what the courts sentance was?
6. Was Sheves paid ANY actual price for his crimes?

Try answering my question...

I'm not going to dignify this with an answer. I will only say that between the two of us, you resrted to bashing and smearing your political opponents. I never called the right wing mafia or similar low level language. No, you didn't.
Other leftics do the job for you all over the place.

As for my bashings... I believe I do high quality bashings. You must at least respect that! As for smearing... The left does not need me for smearing itself.

and it does not make you "equal" with Peres, Rabin, et al. They also never used this kind of language. Leftists never ever defailed zabotinsky's or Begin's grave. not even the most extreme ones. Leftists never ever used murder and violence as political tools. Leftists don't use foul language in political debates, so no, you're not "equal" with leftist leaders. you need to examine how you express yourself and your opposition to your political rivals first. Now you tell a lie! shame on you. For all my forceful attitude, I never gone so low as to tell lies!

As for "resort of violance", never forget the Altalena. How Rabin fired upon American Jews on their way to liberate Jerusalem war of independence, just becuase they were not socialists. That is the peak which followed the the large and small "seasons", where Hagana paper pushers turned over Etzel fighter to the Brits so they get hanged. The idea of self defence through offensive and taking the battle into the enemy turf, has always been strange to Israeli leftics.

Don't forget why BG disbanded the PalMach and sent Yitzhak Sade home, in a middle of a war!!!. The Communists were a danger to Israel democracy. And they still are.

Don't forget the institionilaized persecution of Begins party members in the 50's and 60's.

As for graves: Zabotinsky will said spacificly that his grave relocation must be only under spacific goverment order. Ben Gurion never gave one.

Last, no one in the right, has Bolshevic style idole whorship like in the Left. Saint-Rabin is all yours! You want him, you keep him. New Age Rabin whorship is right around the corner, "Rabins grave energizing healing powers"... just you wait.

but I thought the media is "leftic" - so how come you're qouting them??? maybe not all media is "leftic"? In every great bleak dark, there may be a beam of light and a shine of hope. Dror Ben Yamini and Ma'ariv in general are only the exception the prove the general: The media and justice are hostages of Leftic maffia political whims.

Some of Ma'ariv is all we have. After Arutz Sheva became the first majore radio station closed down as a result of political persecution through the courts. So much for "leftic democracy".

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by sharonbn

What reaction would you feel is correct for someone who defiles a monument? a slap on the wrist?

The problem is with definition. How is "defile" defined?

I don't think anyone would have a problem with agreeing that permanent, irreparable damage to a grave or monument would consitute defiling it. This should be punished severely.

Paint or anything similar is public vandalism, and I would hope that there have been penalties in the law for this for a long time. Paint can be removed, so the penalty should be less severe.

Spitting on a monument? Sorry, I just do not see this as vandalism or permanent, irreparable damage. Disgusting as it is, I don't see why it should be punished at all, frankly. Punishing this only serves to further fan hot tempers, and further polarize people. If, however, there is a law on the books against spitting in a public place, where there you are. How I would LOVE to do a citizen's arrest on those who spit on sidewalks!

Say, how many times have you seen a mother assisting her toddler to urinate against a building? What if this building were, say, Bituach Leumi - would this constitute defiling a public institution?

Sorry, but the spitter had his civil rights violated, IMO. It was definitely not nice, and ne culturny, but, hey, there are a lot of crazier people out there.

BTW, we have a very similar problem with defining "incitement". I firmly believe that ALL "incitement" should be punishable. I also feel that there is a great deal of politicizing the red line of where "incitement" begins. :(

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
True, some are leftics!
Okay, so some are left wing and some are right wing. Obviously the left wing feels Netanyahu "got away" with criminal actions, obviously the right wing feels Netanyahu was exonerated and is clean – that’s all legitimate difference of opinions. but why do you go from here into realm of conspiracies and “mafia”? After all, Netanyahu was not charged.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
[/b] As for facts:
1. Shimon Sheves was barak depudy but Rabin's bureau chief. A role he explotied to become a millionire on doubtful circumstances.
2. The media buried very quickly the story.
3. Connections between Rabin and Sheves, over the brib and weapons deals, were hushed and supressed
4. The trail itself was in closed doors. Strangly, nobody leaked anything!
5. Does ANYBODY knows what the courts sentance was?
6. Was Sheves paid ANY actual price for his crimes?
1. Sheves was indeed connected to Rabin. Sorry, my mistake.
So Sheves exploited his position to become millionaire, while Netanyahu (and you’d probably say Sharon as well) are persecuted for crimes they did not commit (Sheves was acquitted from all charges, prosecution filed an appeal to supreme court) Why are you convinced that right wing leaders are innocent while left wing leaders are guilty? this is your personal opinion, that’s fine, but why go and accuse of mafia behavior? I don’t get this extremism.
2. the media did not ‘bury’ the story. Period. See also point 4.
3. first time I hear of such things. Sheves was never accused of weapon deals. And if everything was hushed – how come Sheves was eventually trailed? And by Rubinstein – whom you accuse of being part of the mafia. How do you explain this?
4. The trial was not in closed doors. Where do you get this?? I remember hearing about the progress of the trial in the radio.
5. LOL!! Just because you don’t bother to listen to the radio or read the paper – that does not mean they don’t publish news. Sheves was acquitted from all accounts. On one account, the judge said the prosecution did not prove he had malicious intent, and on the other account the prosecution did not present enough evidence to merit a guilty verdict. I heard about it in the radio and later read about the case (and opinions) in Ynet and Yedioth Aharonot (sorry, I don’t read maariv, I detest this paper, its owner and chief editor).
I don’t say Sheves was innocent or guilty, but his case certainly did get media attention and he wasn’t let off the hook as easily as Netanyahu.
6. already answered. Sheves paid for his crimes the same price that Netanyahu paid for his.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
No, you didn't.
Other leftics do the job for you all over the place.
As for my bashings... I believe I do high quality bashings. You must at least respect that! As for smearing... The left does not need me for smearing itself.

First of all, I am not responsible for other people, I am responsible for my own actions and speech. I urge you to try that sometimes.
The ‘quality’ of your bashing is a subjective matter (I will not stoop to say what *I* think of it) but I wonder stil why is it you fell compelled to use such offensive language. You know the Yiddish saying ‘istra balagina kish kish karia’? (the empty barrel makes a loud noise when rolling).

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Now you tell a lie! shame on you. For all my forceful attitude, I never gone so low as to tell lies!
Peres, Rabin et al never used this kind of language – true.
Leftists never ever defailed zabotinsky's or Begin's grave – true.
Leftists never ever used murder and violence as political tools – true.
Leftists don't use foul language in political debates – true.

Altalena was mutiny on the new gov’t of the new state – in times of war!. The etzel refused to assimilate into IDF. And refused to hand the weapons over to IDF. BG felt that what was good for the underground times is not good for a sovereign country – and he was right. Had he not taken the necessary measures we would have armed militia that does not recognize the authority of the gov’t. We saw in Lebanon what this causes. All underground movements had to be disbanded and cease from existence the minute the state was formed. This may sound trivial today, but back in 1948, the etzel and lehi did not want to disband of their free will – so BG did what had to be done to preserve the authority of the gov’t. This is crucial in early stages of statehood.

The season is justified as well. The british were fighting the most monstrous enemy ever risen in modern history. This enemy pledged to wipe out the Jewish race from the face of the earth. Everyone and I mean everyone understood that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” and these times are not suited for fighting our own war gainst the British. But the etzel and lehi? No… thay don’t care about what happens to entire Jewish communities in Europe, thay have their own agenda – and the hell with the rest.
Did you know that lehi contacted Nazi officials and offered to become an underground movement on behalf of Nazi germany? They wanted funding for their activities from the Nazis.
I guess this is yet another one of those things that maariv didn’t publish.
So the season has nothing to do with political rivalries. It has only to do with aiding the British in their war against the Nazis.

BG disbanding the Palmach was ... what? An act of violence? I never said left wing didn’t plat dirty games in political life. the right played the same games (e.g. Sharon lied and cheated Begin about the Lebanon war – a fact proven by the court! oops, sorry – the leftist mafia court.)

Do you know who was it that finally “gave the order” to bring Zabotinsky’s bones to Israel? It was Levi Eshkol. He as PM from Mapai after BG resigned. But don’t let the facts get in your way of bashing the “communists”.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Last, no one in the right, has Bolshevic style idole whorship like in the Left. Saint-Rabin is all yours! You want him, you keep him. New Age Rabin whorship is right around the corner, "Rabins grave energizing healing powers"... just you wait.
I’ll gladly accept the new role of Rabin’s grave, if you people could just hold yourself from painting swastikas on the monument for more than one day.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
In every great bleak dark, there may be a beam of light and a shine of hope. Dror Ben Yamini and Ma'ariv in general are only the exception the prove the general: The media and justice are hostages of Leftic maffia political whims.
So there is maariv. There is also the media published in yesha (like nekuda), there is also the media channels of the orthodox (like yated neeman) I guess the picture is not as one sided as you would like to present it.
But again, don’t let the facts deter you from your bashing. Go on. Get it out of your system.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Some of Ma'ariv is all we have. After Arutz Sheva became the first majore radio station closed down as a result of political persecution through the courts. So much for "leftic democracy".
Do you know who is the minister of communication? Its Ariel Sharon
Do you know who is the minister of education and culture ? Its Limor Livnat
its funny that all the time the labor wasin power - no-one touched arutz 7, then the likud comes into power - and they shut it down.
but don't let the facts bother you in your bashing of the leftic "political persecution".

[sharonbn]

wellofvow,

there exists a legal definition called malicious intent. I believe it exists in the US as well as here in Israel. the definition applies to crimes related to “good citizenship conduct” as well as “ministerial accountability” and “job position”. For instance, in cases of embezzlement the burden is laid upon the prosecution to prove that the accused was knowingly stealing money, and mot just making mistakes in his books (e.g. they have to show he took the money for himself). The severity of the punishment will be greatly affected if the embezzlement was theft or a mistake.

That’s the difference between a toddler urinating in public, or a person spitting on the sidewalk – and a person spitting on a monument or grave. Malicious intent. I guess a person who paints swastika will get different punishment than a spitter. but the state has decided that spitting on a monument is outside the legal expression of political views.

Every country defines what is defile. For instance, isn’t there a law in the US that forbids defiling the American flag? (like tearing it apart) there isn’t any such law in Israel.

[danholo]

I still find it very annoying that debate can be so vicious. It seems like the only way to see Israel destroyed is from within, by its own people. Just like every time a Jewish commonwealth got destroyed. People don't learn from their mistakes and Jews have a hard time uniting under one banner!

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Okay, so some are left wing and some are right wing. Obviously the left wing feels Netanyahu "got away" with criminal actions, obviously the right wing feels Netanyahu was exonerated and is clean – that’s all legitimate difference of opinions. but why do you go from here into realm of conspiracies and “mafia”? After all, Netanyahu was not charged.

1. Sheves was indeed connected to Rabin. Sorry, my mistake. So Sheves exploited his position to become millionaire, while Netanyahu (and you’d probably say Sharon as well) are persecuted for crimes they did not commit (Sheves was acquitted from all charges, prosecution filed an appeal to supreme court)
Why are you convinced that right wing leaders are innocent while left wing leaders are guilty? this is your personal opinion, that’s fine, but why go and accuse of mafia behavior? I don’t get this extremism.

Lets begin with the end. Natanyahu was born a millionire, third generation. His greater family made their millions in the ore bussiness in America. Sharon is a rancher. One doesn't need to be a millionire to become a rancher on a piece of desert in the middle on no where outside Sderot "city". (an over grown village at best of days!!). Most ranchers I know (outside Bush), are quite pennyless. Sharon has taken a second morgage for his ranch, last time I heard.

On the other hand, both Barak and Sheves, are kibbutzniks. borke, dry, clean and polished from anything other then socialist values. Overnight, both become multi millionires. Of course, the leftic courts coudn't prove curroption: Barak and Sheves, each happened to become millionire, even against their own will. They just couldn't help it! They came across a truck full of money, and they just couldn't find the right owner... so its finders keep, no? I never was their fault for becoming multi millionires overnight. And yeah, Rabin never noticed Sheves side bussiness are THAT successful, how could he? Right?

All of this, make perfect sense. How dared the right, accuse Leftics in maffia like curroption... Ofcourse left judges couldn't prove corruption, maybe because curroption is a Leftic norm. See Stalin.

2. the media did not ‘bury’ the story. Period. See also point 4. Whenever the media does not give equal and proper coverage, proportional to the crimes, it is called supression or cencorship. It is clear and obvious the media coverage in Israel is strongly baised. False accusations against Sharon and Natayahu and many others, gone blown way out of proportions. while serious claims were hushed.

3. first time I hear of such things. Sheves was never accused of weapon deals. And if everything was hushed – how come Sheves was eventually trailed? And by Rubinstein – whom you accuse of being part of the mafia. How do you explain this? Easy. We are not yet a full soviet ragime. Many Jews are victims of the communists, and rather die then face them again. The left maffia system is strong, but not all powerful. The trail was about accepting bribe for selling weapons and military technology to Taiwan.

4. The trial was not in closed doors. Where do you get this?? I remember hearing about the progress of the trial in the radio. Yes it was in close doors. There were updates, but very scarse and one sided.

5. LOL!! Just because you don’t bother to listen to the radio or read the paper – that does not mean they don’t publish news. Sheves was acquitted from all accounts. On one account, the judge said the prosecution did not prove he had malicious intent, and on the other account the prosecution did not present enough evidence to merit a guilty verdict. I heard about it in the radio and later read about the case (and opinions) in Ynet and Yedioth Aharonot (sorry, I don’t read maariv, I detest this paper, its owner and chief editor). Ma'ariv was the first paper to break the line, again. That's why I love it so much. Its again, Israel voice of resistance to the Leftic curropt ragime.

I never had doubt, not for ONE second Sheves will be acquited and that the Judges would not find a milicious intent. As I said before, Sheves had become a millionair overnight and against his will. His wife made him!.

I don’t say Sheves was innocent or guilty, but his case certainly did get media attention and he wasn’t let off the hook as easily as Netanyahu. Sheves media coverage was supressed. Personaly, Where so many millions are involved, I think people like Sheves are capable of murder. I hope you'll get what I mean.

6. already answered. Sheves paid for his crimes the same price that Netanyahu paid for his. Natanyahu paid frantic mud slinging for allegations of crimes he never committed. The whole unslought was politicaly motivated so to destroy his political career, persecute him for his political identity.

Sheves is not innocent, not even one little bit. He only better connected and crimminaly smarter then Natayahu.

Leftic curroptions and crimes against the rule of law and Israeli democracy are sky high and stink through heavens. Ma'ariv and Jpost are the only papers who dare to deal with it. Yediot and Ha'aretz simply ignore whatever against their money making politics.

Since Ma'ariv was established, it always had supperior jurnalistic democratic values. Just look at Ma'ariv jurnalistic and opinion crew: All the political trublemakers who got booted for their values from other papers. You'll never ever find a colum like Segal's or Uziel's or Dror Ben Yamini in Yedioth or Ha'aretz. Even Dan Margalit was kicked from Ha'aretz for attempting to publish politicaly demaging information. Margalit is still considered a traitor by his fellow "jurnalists" for ending Rabin's first term (1974-1977).

First of all, I am not responsible for other people, I am responsible for my own actions and speech. I urge you to try that sometimes. I glad to hear that!!! You have personal responsibility for what you write!!! Great for you!!!
Your people of the extrem left do make serious progress on the thought control issue. Either that or you're far higher up the ranks then I first dared to think of.

I am responsible for what I write, and I like the way it comes out, quite alot! .

The ‘quality’ of your bashing is a subjective matter (I will not stoop to say what *I* think of it) but I wonder stil why is it you fell compelled to use such offensive language. You know the Yiddish saying ‘istra balagina kish kish karia’? (the empty barrel makes a loud noise when rolling). People tend to like better what I write, then you're. It's a fairly nice accurate instrument of maussre.

As for your over used saying: First, its in Aramaic. Not Yiddish. Second, "Lagina" is a kind of a clay vass. not Barrle. "Istra" is a 2nd century AD coin.

However, the "empty barrles that make alot of noise", is a famous (in right thinking circles) proverb or Fable ("Mashal" in Hebrew) in rhymes written by Krilov,, 19 century lawer.

Peres, Rabin et al never used this kind of language – true. WRONG!!! He called protestors "propelors", and lashed time after time against the right. "I'm not you PM" he shouted. "The peace process will continue by hook and by cook", "you're only 2% of the population" ect... In other words, Rabin made quite clearly, he goes for the Noble and the country could burn as far as he cares. If Jews die becuase of Arafat terrorism then it's their problem, not his.

Leftists never ever defailed zabotinsky's or Begin's grave – true. Wrong! but it never got to the papers, and never will. For reasons I explained before.

Leftists never ever used murder and violence as political tools – true. WRONG!!! they do that all the time. Only we call it "Arab terrorism".

More to the point: The left is reponsible for the long resistance to self defence intiatives ,the Altalena, Arlozorov murder, seasons, Yom Kippur blunders... it's only the beging. so many Jews who died because of Leftic politics.

Leftists don't use foul language in political debates – true. WRONG!!! DEAD WRONG!!! I guess you never heard a speach by BG. too bad. But Peres is chief faul language officer.

[Gilgamesh]

Altalena was mutiny on the new gov’t of the new state – in times of war!. I'll not begin the Altalena debate with so uninformed creature. I'll give you this link (http://www.etzel.org.il/english/index.html) and debate yourself silly with these real historic facts, as much as you wish, just leave us alone. Come back to us once you've finish your homework.

The season is justified as well. The british were fighting the most monstrous enemy ever risen in modern history. This enemy pledged to wipe out the Jewish race from the face of the earth. Everyone and I mean everyone understood that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” and these times are not suited for fighting our own war gainst the British. But the etzel and lehi? No… thay don’t care about what happens to entire Jewish communities in Europe, thay have their own agenda – and the hell with the rest. The Etzel commander, David Razi'el was killed in action, when he headed a covert operation in Iraq against the Natzis, as an ally of Britain and under British co-oridnation and command. It's far more that what the Hagana dared to think off, at that time.

The Etzel done far more against the Natzis, togather with the Brits then what the Leftist ever done, all put togather. By the time the Etzel went back fighting Brits, the war outcome was already decided. The Holocaust was a highly known published fact. Jews of Hungary were transported to Auschviz, my grandmother and her family, among them. The Hagana did what they done best: whinning and saying "oy veii" from time to time. The Etzel done all that he could to break open the neval blockade and allow more Jews to enter the land of Israel. Making more ships to break to blockad (Ha'apala).

Never forget: The ship Af-Al-Pi, (despite) was the first ship to break the siege, and was an Etzel-Beitar ship. The whole concept of going against the Brits, is an Etzel idea. Even the idea of self defence against Arab pogromers is Jabotinskys idea, condemed automaticly by all the Leftists. They called self defense: "militarism"

Did you know that lehi contacted Nazi officials and offered to become an underground movement on behalf of Nazi germany? They wanted funding for their activities from the Nazis.
I guess this is yet another one of those things that maariv didn’t publish. Don't believe what ever Tom Segev writes. Tom Segev also believes Zionism is immoral. Segev is a communist. A real one, not a wannabe like you Sharon.

In short: It's a lie.

So the season has nothing to do with political rivalries. It has only to do with aiding the British in their war against the Nazis. BS. 1. There is no greater treason then sending your own brothers in arms to the british gallows. The Hagana done it many times over, in TWO periods. 2. Hagana always prefered collaboration with the brits over acutaly helping Jews of Europe escape their fate. 3. British occupation had to end so to save Jews.

BG disbanding the Palmach was ... what? An act of violence? No, it was an act of preseving Israel democracy from communist revolution.

I never said left wing didn’t plat dirty games in political life. the right played the same games I never knew the left done anything else.

(e.g. Sharon lied and cheated Begin about the Lebanon war – a fact proven by the court! oops, sorry – the leftist mafia court.) Sharon never lied to Begin. It's a historic fact no court order can rewrite.

This is the thing that alway amuse me: Lefitc history is so unexpected. One might never know what he remembers.

Do you know who was it that finally “gave the order” to bring Zabotinsky’s bones to Israel? It was Levi Eshkol. He as PM from Mapai after BG resigned. But don’t let the facts get in your way of bashing the “communists”. Don't make a fool out of me, mister. Believe me I had read all possible books writen by or about Jabotisky. Again, BG never allowed to bring over Jabotinsky's remains.

I’ll gladly accept the new role of Rabin’s grave, if you people could just hold yourself from painting swastikas on the monument for more than one day. So now it "your people"!!! Next you'll acuse me, and the rest of the right thinkers of this forum in acomplicment in Rabin's murder. That was the exact accusation made and still being made: "Anybody who fails to fully support Oslo only incites violance".

So there is maariv. There is also the media published in yesha (like nekuda), there is also the media channels of the orthodox (like yated neeman) I guess the picture is not as one sided as you would like to present it.
But again, don’t let the facts deter you from your bashing. Go on. Get it out of your system. There used to be Arutz 7, but in the name of the "freedom of speach", the channel was banned. Out side few margionlized pirate radio stations, and few bulletins, The media is leftic. You can't begin to compare the power of Yedioth, Ha'aretz the TV channels, and the voice of Israel news (Reshet Beith) with these little right publications.

It true the courts hadn't closed down more papers, but it's only a matter of time. Galon tried to sue Jpost for offering to kill Arafat in opinion column. She called it incitement to murder (i.e. killing Arafat). Next time, she'll be successful and either Jpost will be forced to change owners or be shut down.

Do you know who is the minister of communication? Its Ariel Sharon
Do you know who is the minister of education and culture ? Its Limor Livnat
its funny that all the time the labor wasin power - no-one touched arutz 7, then the likud comes into power - and they shut it down.
but don't let the facts bother you in your bashing of the leftic "political persecution". If you know nothing about Mozart or common Hebrew morrows, don't asume I'm like you. Don't ever acuse me of being stupid cause I'll get really mad at you. I promise it will get ugly. Really ugly. Save your hutzpa to some one else.

As for an answer: Unlike the Left, Right wing politicians do not intervine with court legal process, however clearly baised and politicly motivated. I know left people find it hard to understand.
That's why Israeli democracy is safer with right thinking people. The legal action, which took years to complete, hadn't begun on Likud term in power.

[sharonbn]

OK, this debate has gone down tracks which I don't want to go to. I agree with danholo that it sohuldn't be that way.

Obviously, Gilgamesh and I disagree on everything: facts, their interpratetion and opinions. But I hope we didn't show there can be no communication between the sifferent factions of Israeli society

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by sharonbn
OK, this debate has gone down tracks which I don't want to go to. I agree with danholo that it sohuldn't be that way.

Obviously, Gilgamesh and I disagree on everything: facts, their interpratetion and opinions. But I hope we didn't show there can be no communication between the sifferent factions of Israeli society

Ani maskim le'kol ha'amur la'il! (I agree to the above!)

I hope we can both agree upon the utmost need to preserve the Taboo: No political difference among Jews, however bitter, may ever justify violance.

It is a taboo that was forged in the knee deep bloods of the heroic (yet stupid), defenders of Jerusalem. Who bravely resisted the Roman seige for many monthes, yet fought each other over radical and extremist ideas. Never again!.

Democracy is not the moral choise for the Jewish people, It's the ONLY option for a goverment, we can accept. Preserving democracy in Israel is not a moral issue, its existanianal one.

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
I hope we can both agree upon the utmost need to preserve the Taboo: No political difference among Jews, however bitter, may ever justify violance.

I agree with the following additions/amendments:
1) Violence is both physical and verbal.
2) I would not call this guideline a taboo (something that is not spoken of) but rather an axiom or a-priori rule. The rule is both taken for granted (meaning it is never questioned and is expected from every Jew) and at the same time meticulously observed by all.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Democracy is not the moral choise for the Jewish people, It's the ONLY option for a goverment, we can accept. Preserving democracy in Israel is not a moral issue, its existanianal one.

I have always taken pride that (imo) Jews are morally superior to all other nations, especially compared to the Arab people. This superiority is evidence in two manners:
1) Even before the state of Israel was founded, Israeli Jewish society was built upon a mixture of humanistic and traditional Jewish principals of mutual respect, equality and desire to live in peace with non-Jewish neighbors. For Jews, such a society was a trivial choice. No other alternative was ever considered. To this date, Israel is the only democracy in the ME, and it is the only state that faces existential threat and remains a strong democracy.
2) Jews have always regarded moral and ethic issues with great respect and critic eye. Jewish mentality cannot live in peace when a grave injustice is brought upon others. This, along with Jewish love for arguments and debates, is manifested in the constant internal conflicts in the Israeli and worldwide Jewish communities. Moral issues that were never seriously discussed by other nations are constantly scrutinized by Israelis. This trend became so distinctive with Israeli Jewish people, that other nations have come to expect and judge Israeli military and political actions by thee high standards they don’t uphold themselves.

I believe the moral superiority of Israeli Jews is our biggest and most crucial advantage in the on going war between us and the Arabs. Our only failure is that the world seems oblivious to this difference.

Both the left and right wing in Israel push to their ends knowing and even relying on the other side to balance them and keep the extremists at bay. The diversity of the Israeli society, which at times seems unbridgeable and threatens to tear apart the society, is also a vital ingredient in a healthy society – as long as we know and keep the boundaries and rules of civilized debate.