Good God!

[I am David]

:( :(

Is anyone else supremely disturbed by the general strike thats supposedly going to start monday morning? (about now in Israel.) Well I sure as hell am.

The general strike is in response to some mansy pansy government decisions based on the fact that it has very little money. In contrast, the strike will severly damage the economy - it effects distribution of fule, electrical, railway services, shipping, and everything else important. Supposedly it will cost the economy around $US 500 million a day. :(

Why can't they understand that the governemnt cant help these things, and that doing this will only make the situation worse.

Full article: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1067676022499


wah

[L@mplighterM]

A general strike has the potential to collapse the government, mainly because of the loss in revenue. I wonder if the government is able to pass immediate legislation banning such an action.

[I am David]

Damnit, they definitly should! A law that states that, any coordinated action that disrupts enough of the economy and vital services is punishable. So that means the Amir guy who leads this thing gets like 10 years in Jail or something. He certainly deserves that and more. Not to mention that, once the strike is over, and things are stabilized, as many employees that were in the strike should be fired and hire new ones who agree not to be part a labour union.

[humus_sapiens]

The enormous power of Histadrut and the privileges of some of its members make it practically socialist state inside the modern capitalist Israel. Socialism is DEAD. Wherever it ruled, people vote with their feet. Hope this is its last agony in Israel.

[Gilgamesh]

The war against explotiation of workers, makeing good people work for "starvation wagers" is right and just. Israel's minimus wage must be lifted higher, and intrest rates cut down, as soon as possible. Workers must not be fired immidiatly, one their earned seniority. Too many employers in Israel, do fire senior workers so to save couple of dozen Shekels on their pay checks. It is wrong and unjust and the goverment should intervine to ensure workers rights. People older then 50, find it hard to get a job. You won't find "agism" in any written paper, but it's there.

HOWEVER, the union of unions, il capo del tuti capi, the Histadrut, has long time ago hijacked these right and just causes so to centrilize all power into the hands of few, and disrupt any reform, any action of modernization, economic liberalization, less goverment regulation ect...

On the same time, the histadrut itself, becomes Israel largest employer and exploiter of Israeli workers, and hurry to fire, them when things get rough.

Pension funds! the Histadrut main power base are the billions in the pansion funds, used for decades to finance the Histadrut politics and the Labour party elaborated bureaucratic apparatus, funded by Ben Gurion and co.

--------------------------------------------------
Israel of 1948 was born as a socialist poor state. Ben Gurion brand of Zionism, had welded togather "Socialism", "social justace" and Zionism. Also do bare in mind, that 17 years old Ben Gurion, was a Marxist. Luckly, Israel became a democracy, in a process peaked in 1977, yet continus constantly till this very day. Ben Gurion however, did managed to hold off to communists, politicly crush all of his opponents, both left and right. Create the IDF while it's in war, prevent communist inflintration into the Army. (by discharging famed warrior generals who were known communists, like Yitzhak Sade).
-------------------------------------------------

Back to the Histadrut

Laws were not enforces, regulation overlooked. Wrong and crimminal conduct accepted for granted, some of those were mannars that were sometimes older then state of Israel itself (the Histadrut was one of the first Zionist organizations building this country), public critizm ignored, and once the pansion funds run empty, the goverment and the tax payers are called for the rescue. Any demands for reforms more transparency, are immidiatly answered by "Geivaled!!!", "the goverment is cheating the workers", "Bibi is a guneff" , "goverment of Gazlans", ect....

The fight in on. I hope Bibi will win.

[wellofvow]

The strike is a horrible thing. Hospitals were urging families to remove hospitalized patients since they would not be cared for by the "Shabbat" staffing of a striking hospital. Garbage is not being collected. Phones are not being repaired. No planes are taking off or landing. And this is just a partial list.

ON THE OTHER HAND: My 53-year-old neighbor was fired (his employers called it mandatory early retirement). My son's university scholarship was cut by 10%, and his teaching hours were increased by 20% (less money for more work). My salary (I work at the university) was cut. Minimum wage is such a joke I won't even discuss it. Suffice it to say that with over 30 years work experience and a master's degree, I make 7 dollars an hour. I shudder to think of the unfortunates who are disabled, unemployed, widowed, new immigrants, etc.

This is a situation where both sides are "right" and both are "wrong", if you look at it in terms of black and white.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
:( :(

Is anyone else supremely disturbed by the general strike thats supposedly going to start monday morning? (about now in Israel.) Well I sure as hell am.

The general strike is in response to some mansy pansy government decisions based on the fact that it has very little money. In contrast, the strike will severly damage the economy - it effects distribution of fule, electrical, railway services, shipping, and everything else important. Supposedly it will cost the economy around $US 500 million a day. :(

Why can't they understand that the governemnt cant help these things, and that doing this will only make the situation worse.



EXCUSE me????

The government "can't help" not having money??

Israel's Minister of Finance is appointed by the Prime Minister. This person is supposed to have a superior understanding of macroeconomics to microeconomics, and has the power to manipulate the entire country's taxing and funding.

Pardon me for my anger, but if YOU were working here like the average Israeli (as in myself and my three adult children), the government decisions would not be so namsy-pamsy to you either.

You have a heck of a lot of nerve sitting in judgment.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
A general strike has the potential to collapse the government, mainly because of the loss in revenue. I wonder if the government is able to pass immediate legislation banning such an action.

The government can issue back-to-work orders. These orders are hand-delivered to specified, named individuals, much like a subpoena. I understood from the news that this has been done in some cases.

The personalities involved are the problem. Bibi is a wealthy capitalist, arrogant and inflexible, with no caring and little understanding of how most Israelis think and live. Peretz is also arrogant and power-mad.

[I am David]

Originally posted by wellofvow
EXCUSE me????

The government "can't help" not having money??

Israel's Minister of Finance is appointed by the Prime Minister. This person is supposed to have a superior understanding of macroeconomics to microeconomics, and has the power to manipulate the entire country's taxing and funding.

Pardon me for my anger, but if YOU were working here like the average Israeli (as in myself and my three adult children), the government decisions would not be so namsy-pamsy to you either.

You have a heck of a lot of nerve sitting in judgment.

I have no nerve. YOU have nerve for thinking that just because someone is elected to finance minister, that means he can solve the governments money problems. WRONG. He is not a magician. His job is to his best of his ability, help the economy. That doesn't mean its going to happen overnight. Or even in a year. He can only do with what he is given. Believe me Bibi is quite dedicated to improving the economy. But hes limited by the fact that Israel is a democracy and all decisions are not made by him, things take time, and you can only do so much with the current situation. Understand that. YOu are being payed $7 dollars an hour because otherwise the money simply isnt there. How can one man make money from nothing? How can the government get money from nowhere?

THe economy is gradually improving LITTLE by LITTLE, but the reason why I'm so upset about the strike is because any progress the economy has made has been WAYYY undone by the strike if it happens. The strike wont help and its not even proving a point. YOu dont understand the same thing the Workers party leader doesn't - the govermnent can't help some things and protesting against the fact that they cant help them isn't going to help either.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
I have no nerve. YOU have nerve for thinking that just because someone is elected to finance minister, that means he can solve the governments money problems. WRONG. He is not a magician. His job is to his best of his ability, help the economy. That doesn't mean its going to happen overnight. Or even in a year. He can only do with what he is given. Believe me Bibi is quite dedicated to improving the economy. But hes limited by the fact that Israel is a democracy and all decisions are not made by him, things take time, and you can only do so much with the current situation. Understand that. YOu are being payed $7 dollars an hour because otherwise the money simply isnt there. How can one man make money from nothing? How can the government get money from nowhere?

THe economy is gradually improving LITTLE by LITTLE, but the reason why I'm so upset about the strike is because any progress the economy has made has been WAYYY undone by the strike if it happens. The strike wont help and its not even proving a point. YOu dont understand the same thing the Workers party leader doesn't - the govermnent can't help some things and protesting against the fact that they cant help them isn't going to help either.

I wrote that you have a nerve sitting in judgment. According to the sidebar, you do not live in Israel now, but are in the United States. If you feel so strongly about Israeli domestic politics, why aren't you HERE and making a difference?

Again, the Minister of Finance is NOT ELECTED by the people. It was NOT a "democratic" choice. Netanyahu was appointed by Sharon. Since Bibi supposedly actually has an MBA, he was probably a great choice - for a change - as Min of Fin, by the way. But, and again, he apparently has no touch with an average Israel's life.

Min of Fin is a thankless job in Israel. That's probably why Sharon gave this job to his rival, hoping he would fail. I don't expect him to be a magician. I DO expect him to show a lot more sensitivity.

I make 7 dollars an hour because the government is packed with people pulling in fantastic salaries for doing absolutely nothing. Watch TV to see even important Knesset debates attended by a paltry handful of MKs. It is totally embarrassing.

One of the very few MKs I have respect for is Limor Livnat, by the way, so puh-lease don't accuse me of being "anti-Likud". I judge a legislator by his/her actions and not by party affiliation. And it's not just MKs - it's Ministers Without Portfolios, cars, drivers, staffs, trips abroad, the whole enchilada.

And let's think about all the monopolies here - no competition makes me pay more.

And I see no reason at all why Israel, usually in economic crisis, does NOT declare a cap on salary. The salaries earned by top level bank people are totally obscene, when according to the National Insurance Institute (Bituach Leumi) an additional 13% of the population slipped below the poverty line from 2001 to 2002.

BTW, don't tell on me to one of my kids. He just got a top job with one of the big banks and is working on his MBA in finance. I have nothing against large salaries for responsible jobs ANYWHERE (bank, electric company, hospital administration, any and all sectors) - I DO have a problem with obscene salaries for simply sitting at the top and doing little actual work and having little REAL, the-buck-stops-here responsibility.

I do not understand how you wave a hand and minimize the power of the Min of Fin. Although Israel is a democracy, since the Min of Fin is APPOINTED, he does NOT have to appease his constituents. He presents legislation to the Knesset, and the Members - who also are NOT accountable to any constituents, only to their party - vote on it.

THIS, habibi, is the reason why people like Peretz become so popular.

Whatever makes you think "the economy is gradually improving little by little"??? All university salaries were cut, BGU is keeping the undergraduate population stable instead of actively working on increasing it (undergraduates are expensive), my kid's scholarship was reduced, gas just went up, so did water and electricity, and prices on everything go up nearly every time I go shopping. This is just a partial list.

[I am David]

Read all this please.

If you understand economics, the economy does not start to improve when those kinds of things start improve. The economy HAS improved greatly when those things improve. However the conditions that cause economic slum have to go away before the economy starts to improve (and no I'm not talking about the intifada), and that is the begining of recovery.

Besides that, I don't really understand your argument. My position from the start has been that the strike is both a stupid and selfish thing to do, not to mention incredibly scape-goat like, because the goverment does not have control over what the Histuret is complaining about. You blame top officials for having huge salaries. Fine, but I do not believe they are as high as you think. I remember an article a while back when they were cut and it was not much at all. Hell, even the president of the united states only makes around 300k. Goverment officials never make insane amounts of money. It's the CEOs of companys that do, and THEY are not to blame for the goverment's actions.

Secondly, you say that netanyahu does not understand average life? How do you know. You do not need to live an average life to understand that people can suffer, and not like low wages. You cannot say that Netanyahu is not geinuinly interested in improving Israel's economy, because he has nothing to gain from not attempting to improve it except being lazy, and I do not think Bibi is lazy. After all, the goverment cuts are meant so that taxes are reduced (or not having to increase them) putting less strain on the economy.

I wave a hand at the power of the Min of Finance because you can only do so much with what you have. He was not elected by democratic process, but that is not the only thing that makes up a democracy. Meaning that Bibi does not have full control over all economic processes. He has to submit bills to votes and things like that, etc. Not to mention, even if he did have full control, again you cant make nothing from something. Recovery of the economy will happen slowly and unsteadily but only with good conditions. A general strike that literally imobilizes the economy is not going to get ANYONE ANY where.

Thats why I say, just because the goverment isnt making much progress, does not mean its not trying.

To wrap it all up: Stop blaiming the goverment, they are doing the best they can with limited resources they have (overall, not including the expected curruption that is present EVERYWHERE) The economy sucks, the goverment simply doesnt HAVE the money to give for what they ask. Havent read about the huge taxe deficits. Dont you think that means anything? This is not rocket science. when the economy is bad, taxe revenues go down, and the goverment has to cut spending.

I wrote that you have a nerve sitting in judgment. According to the sidebar, you do not live in Israel now, but are in the United States. If you feel so strongly about Israeli domestic politics, why aren't you HERE and making a difference?

I have no nerver sitting in judgment. I don't see why I would. A person cant judge who makes incredibly stupid decisions if he wants? I don't see why I have any "nerve" because I'm angry at what idiots and complete morons The labor union is.

[Mil]

Posted by:


I DO have a problem with obscene salaries for simply sitting at the top and doing little actual work and having little REAL, the-buck-stops-here responsibility.


Even if it's a private enterprise?

[Mil]

David - as far as the Israeli economy is concerned it's in a big-deep cr**phole, for a lack of a better word.

The only problem that I have with wellofvow comments is where was the public in last 10 years when the economy was actually growing, expanding, and salaries were rising. Why now? Why strike in this situation when the economy is stagnating (if not shrinking), the salaries are falling, and the state expenditures are enormous? Who is benefitng - Peretz and the boys?

[I am David]

It is in a big mess but some beleive the light is seen at the end of the tunnel and things may start to get better soon just like the US economy. Anyway my point was that the strike will just destroy the economy far beyond what it is now, and it does no good because the goverment cant really help things that are being protested!

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Mil
Posted by:


I DO have a problem with obscene salaries for simply sitting at the top and doing little actual work and having little REAL, the-buck-stops-here responsibility.


Even if it's a private enterprise?

I admit to being internet-challenged, and unable to run to a source to uphold my memory. However....

Seems to me that I remember a while back reading that the head of one of the major banks in Israel ("private" enterprises) drew a "salary" of over a half million, and that was dollars, not shekels. And the heads of the other banks was quite similar.

Back in the early 1980s, Israeli banks seriously screwed over Israeli stockholders. The boursa crashed, and the GOVERNMENT stepped in. Thousands were completely ruined. The bank manipulators were given slaps on the wrist and politely retired with gazillions.

Could anybody find this?

I think that banks are under the supervision of the Bank of Israel, and certainly under the eye of the State Comptroller.

What I'm saying is to PUT A CAP on salaries in this economic crisis. Perhaps I am David does not understand this phrase?

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by Mil
The only problem that I have with wellofvow comments is where was the public in last 10 years when the economy was actually growing, expanding, and salaries were rising. Why now? Why strike in this situation when the economy is stagnating (if not shrinking), the salaries are falling, and the state expenditures are enormous? Who is benefitng - Peretz and the boys?

Anyone who has lived in Israel for the "last 10 years" knows very well that there have been more strikes than we can remember, BOTH general strikes, and selected sector strikes.

Nurses or doctors go on strike every few years since their successful strike in 1982, which is terrifying. In 1982, I had an asthmatic child who also had frequent bouts of pneumonia. That months-long strike was a nightmare. I personally know of a doctor who "broke" the strike - and he was later sued by the Israel Medical Association!

Teachers have gone on strike nearly every year that I can recall for the last 20 years - usually at the very beginning of the school year (a real picnic if your kid is starting first grade :( ).

Municipalities also go on strike at least once a year, meaning that garbage is not collected for a few days to a couple of weeks. Think about that one.

Last, but not least, Bituach Leumi, the Israeli equivalent of Social Security, is on strike or slowdown more often than not.

Contrary to Mil's question, it is hard for me, having lived in Israel for over 3 decades, to understand why the big hysteria in THIS strike. Actually, it is "milder" than several others we have weathered. My daughter had her telephone line transferred to another city, I saw my doctor, the buses are running, and so on.

On the other hand, unemployment is increasing and the average salary is falling. I may not understand economics, but fail to see why the government is NOT responsible for this, as I am David keeps claiming.

There are towns in Israel where unemployment is over 50%, and that did not just happen in the last few years. It is chronic government neglect. And it is ALL governments - both Labor and Likud. Much government-controlled money via subsidies and support of industry-location has been poured into selected towns and areas, leaving other areas to be ground even further into poverty by systematic government neglect.

[I am David]

First of all, you must understand that the strike that happened is nothing at all neared what WOULD HAVE happened. I started this topic in response to that, so the conditions you described you went through was not what I was talking about.

Secondly, your assumption that the goverment is responsible for the economic situation BY DEFAULT is grossly wrong (IE "I see no reason why the gov't is not responsible".) The goverment is usually not the driving force in an economy downturn, infact its usually not a major factor at all except in a few instances where the goverment actions are so hourendous its unbelievable. This is not the case in Israel. Some gov't stupidity, and curruption, but the economy is how it is due more to the burst of the dot-com, high tech bubble in the 90s, worsening world relations towards Israel, the overal global economic downturn, and the Intifada. I see no reason why these would not be the primary factors for the economic downturn.

This is why, the huge general strike planned was incredibly stupid, it would only have hurt Israel tremendously while gaining nothing because who they were protesting were not the ones responsible for their problems in general.

[I am David]

What I'm saying is to PUT A CAP on salaries in this economic crisis. Perhaps I am David does not understand this phrase?

And thus we would be violating the concept of "freedom" to such a level that would be unnacceptable.

Perhaps wellofvow does not understand the concept of "freedom"?

[Mediocrates]

We're talking about public servants. There should be a functional civil service with reasonable pay grades, ONE salary (not two - another from the party), little corruption and accountability.


It is entirely reasonable to put caps on their pay. IF they don't like that they should work in the private sector. There is no excuse for public servants to be earning substantially more than the 'average' of a what a job is worth and it should be criminal to work for the government and party at the same time. That's just asking for graft.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
And thus we would be violating the concept of "freedom" to such a level that would be unnacceptable.

Perhaps wellofvow does not understand the concept of "freedom"?

And what "freedom" are you talking about?

Freedom for government officials to vote themselves higher salaries when unemployment is rising, the average salary is plummeting, and the rest of the country is experiencing cuts in salary? That's the "freedom" - your word, not mine - that I am talking about.

Israel does not have a constitution, no Bill of Rights. We do not have any right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. "Violating the concept of freedom" is a wild and irresponsible phrase. You sound like a dingbat in the above. Calm down if you want to continue this.

I start to lose patience when people address extremely snide and completely irrelevant messages to me.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
First of all, you must understand that the strike that happened is nothing at all neared what WOULD HAVE happened. I started this topic in response to that, so the conditions you described you went through was not what I was talking about.

Secondly, your assumption that the goverment is responsible for the economic situation BY DEFAULT is grossly wrong (IE "I see no reason why the gov't is not responsible".) The goverment is usually not the driving force in an economy downturn, infact its usually not a major factor at all except in a few instances where the goverment actions are so hourendous its unbelievable. This is not the case in Israel. Some gov't stupidity, and curruption, but the economy is how it is due more to the burst of the dot-com, high tech bubble in the 90s, worsening world relations towards Israel, the overal global economic downturn, and the Intifada. I see no reason why these would not be the primary factors for the economic downturn.

This is why, the huge general strike planned was incredibly stupid, it would only have hurt Israel tremendously while gaining nothing because who they were protesting were not the ones responsible for their problems in general.

"First of all, you must understand that the strike that happened is nothing at all neared what WOULD HAVE happened..."

"Would have" or "Could have"? I do not see how you can know what "would have" happened. And would have happened if WHAT? Could you be more clear?

About your "secondly", sorry, I just don't buy it. Just as an example, MKs voted themselves higher salaries well AFTER the computer technology bubble burst, AFTER the second intifada. MKs are being investigated for vote-buying - not with money that their mommies saved in the Keren Kayemet pushkehs, I am sure. The Galil and especially the Negev have been promised for decades that the government will help encourage industry to build there by granting special subsidies, and just about gournisht came of that. Why does industry insist on going to the very unsafe Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, do you think?

I heard from an inside source that the gorgeous Schneider Children's Medical Center was supposed to have been built in Beer Sheva, which has only 1 tertiary-care hospital serving a population of more than 750,000 people. The donor wanted to build in Tel Aviv (which has a much larger population, but also *many* more large hospitals). The government did NOT twist any arms with special subsidies if it would be built in Beer Sheva, which NEEDED a children's hospital, so the Negev was neglected yet again.

The government determines what part of the budget goes where. Obviously, since the intifada, more has to be put into defense if the country is to survive. My problem is that the government is diverting too much of the necessary funds to defense from sectors which are poor or weak, instead of from the wealthier/stronger sectors.

Example: Universities are being cut in their government subsidy support. So, the universities are forced to accept fewer undergraduates, since it is expensive for the university to educate undergraduates (grad students teach and help with labs and research studies). So, fewer students can make the "cut", and avail themselves of a university education which will enable them to get a good job. My grad student son was hit with a 10% cut in his scholarship, and at the same time is being forced to teach MORE hours.

I may not have an MBA, but I still resent your accusations, *without a shred of evidence*, that what I say is absolutely, grossly wrong.

You are entitled to your opinion that the strike is completely, one-sidedly wrong. It is MY opinion, however, that it is NOT black-and-white.

[I am David]

Hey, no need to get rude, it is incosiderate and unnecesary. I dont need any accusations of "snide remarks" and "completely irrellevant message". This is a disccusion forum, not a kids name calling forum.


You dont seem to know a lot about your country. Israel has a set of basic laws, and while not called a "bill of rights" or "consitution" provides the same basic service. Anyway as I said goverment officials never get a lot of money. If you want to show me the salaries of all of Isreals govt posisitions, why dont you.

As for what "could have happened" and what "would have happened", its plainly obvious. It would have been MUCH worse, because the union was actually planning on making it HUGE. Effecting most parts of the country, and lasting a while. Instead it lasted 4 hours and didnt even effect everything. THats what I originally meant, when I posted this topic it was in response to the original strike size.

Anyway, you still dont understand about the economic downturn. You say the pay incraese happened AFTER the high tech burst, intifada etc? Eh? That proves my point. The economy was ALREADY SUCKING AT THAT POINt, so the pay increases and stuff like that couldnt be responsible. Its really quiet ignorant and scape-goatish to just blame the goverment for the poor state of the economy.

As for your examples, I could point to many examples how the US govt is responsible for its eco - downturn, but would it be? No, the point is, yes the Israel govt has done bad stuff, but it is not responsible in the big picture for the state of things.

So if the Histudrat wants to protest the bad things the govt does - fine. But do it in such a way that it does not literally cripple the economy and makes things 2x as bad. There are other, much more effective, and less damaging ways of doing it.

Thats why the strike, which would only work against them, and hurt the innocent people of the country (IE not the "bad govt" your complaining about), and blaiming the govt for things it wasnt even responsible, was completely wrong :)

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
Hey, no need to get rude, it is incosiderate and unnecesary. I dont need any accusations of "snide remarks" and "completely irrellevant message". This is a disccusion forum, not a kids name calling forum.


You dont seem to know a lot about your country. Israel has a set of basic laws, and while not called a "bill of rights" or "consitution" provides the same basic service.

Anyway, you still dont understand about the economic downturn. You say the pay incraese happened AFTER the high tech burst, intifada etc? Eh? That proves my point. The economy was ALREADY SUCKING AT THAT POINt, so the pay increases and stuff like that couldnt be responsible. Its really quiet ignorant and scape-goatish to just blame the goverment for the poor state of the economy.

As for your examples, I could point to many examples how the US govt is responsible for its eco - downturn, but would it be? No, the point is, yes the Israel govt has done bad stuff, but it is not responsible in the big picture for the state of things.

So if the Histudrat wants to protest the bad things the govt does - fine. But do it in such a way that it does not literally cripple the economy and makes things 2x as bad. There are other, much more effective, and less damaging ways of doing it.

Thats why the strike, which would only work against them, and hurt the innocent people of the country (IE not the "bad govt" your complaining about), and blaiming the govt for things it wasnt even responsible, was completely wrong :)

Are you a redhead? You remind me of my daughter when she tries to argue a point with me. :rolleyes:

OK, one by one.

I called it a snide remark to question my understanding the word and the concept of "freedom". The concept of freedom has no place in this discussion. See below.


quote (me):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I'm saying is to PUT A CAP on salaries in this economic crisis. Perhaps I am David does not understand this phrase?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


answer (you)
And thus we would be violating the concept of "freedom" to such a level that would be unnacceptable.

Perhaps wellofvow does not understand the concept of "freedom"?


My suggestion to put a cap on salaries has nothing to do with any "freedom" that I can think of. I was being kind when I called it a snide remark to say "Perhaps wellofvow does not understand the concept of 'freedom'". What I really think is that this is very insulting. Way past "rude".

"Snide" and "irrelevant" are not remotely similar to kids' name-calling nor are they "rude" words. Are you trying to make yourself out as a victim here? What is your point?

Sorry, in my circles, you would be the one to be called "rude" for repeatedly insisting that I am "completely wrong", "grossly wrong", "ignorant", "scape-goatish" and so on, as you have done.

It is also rude to say that I don't seem to know a lot about my country. Funny that you should accuse me of that, after your first posts which claimed that the Minister of Finance was democratically elected! Only after I called you on this did you acknowledge that he was really appointed by the Prime Minister.

The basic laws of Israel are very basic. Nothing near the elegance of the constitution. There has been talk for many years of writing a constitution in Israel. I doubt if it will happen. Israel is too Jewish :o .

I am disappointed that the moderator did not delete the word that you used twice in this debate that rhymes with duck and begins with the letter s. It is every bit as distasteful in polite discourse as the other word rhyming with duck that begins with the letter f.

I have never said in any post that the government was completely responsible for the economic mess that Israel is in. You are the one who insists, however, that the government is completely innocent of blame. This is rather naive, at best. I keep insisting that the situation is NOT black and white, while you seem to insist that the government is completely innocent. This is the only point that I am challenging you on, and you keep going off on tangents.

You completely miss the point of my anger over the MKs voting themselves pay increases after it was plain that Israel was rapidly going down the economic tubes. While the rest of the country was figuring out ways to tighten the belt, reducing salaries, reducing services, cutting down on quality, whatever, here the MKs gave themselves a present of higher salaries. No, I am not saying that this caused any worsening in the economic situation, that is ridiculous. What I'm saying is that it shows me that they feel no connection or responsibility for the economic crisis, and see no reason why they should suffer like everyone else in Israel. Sorry, but this attitude of lese majesty gets me very angry - I feel that this has no place in Israel or in Jews.

You say that the Israeli government is absolutely "not responsible in the big picture for the state of things". So, who do you imagine is? Don't tell me - Amir Peretz or Vicki Knafo?

And if you wanted to protest the government budget, how would you do it if not by striking? I am really, honestly curious. I do NOT LIKE strikes.

[I am David]

As I asked before, PLEASE don't be rude. I was not rude to you, I only told you that your position is wrong. You said "Perhaps I am David does not understand this phrase?", yet you consider that perfectly fine, yet when I say "Perhaps wellofvow does not understand the concept of "freedom"?" as a rebutal to your comment that is "way past rude"? That's quiet the double standard of rudeness. Please, no name calling, "redhead", "you are like my daughter", etc, and things can be civil. But I find it hard to carry on an intellectual debate when around every corner you find some way to bellittle me and act hostile. I didn't start this topic to deal with discussions like this, so please dont be the one to ruin it. And BTW "sucks" was not even aimed at you and not even a real curse word so, I dont understand what the big deal is.

Now, back to the debate...

The basic laws protects basic rights of humans and whatnot just like the consitution. It does not do it EXACTLY like the constituion but still does it. The constitution isnt perfect either. Perhaps you should take a look at
this page (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00h50)

And I have never said that the goverment is completely innocent of blame for the current economic situation. It is partly to blame although DEFINITLY not mainly or significantly to blame. So if this is "the only point" your challenging me on you seemed to have lost this argument since post one of this thread.

You say that the Israeli government is absolutely "not responsible in the big picture for the state of things". So, who do you imagine is? Don't tell me - Amir Peretz or Vicki Knafo?

I have already explained this, I don't feel the need to repeat this, and no its not Amir Peretz or the latter.

It is also rude to say that I don't seem to know a lot about my country. Funny that you should accuse me of that, after your first posts which claimed that the Minister of Finance was democratically elected! Only after I called you on this did you acknowledge that he was really appointed by the Prime Minister.

This I find slightly mysterious. Where did I say that the Minister of Finance was democratically elected? I know he is chosen by the goverment (the PM as far as I know - though Im no expert). I said the FM is part of a democratic country, therefore he cant just tell everyone what to do in regards to finance. This was my point, yet even after I explained it to you initially you STILL dont seem to want to except your mistake.



I will repeat my main point which you have repeatly ignored and pretended it to be something else, because this is my point and not something else

The strike is wrong because whatever their case against the goverment is, will only hurt Israel and the innocent citizens most, will not accomplish anything for the country, and is in most part blaiming the govmernent for something that is not its fault

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
As I asked before, PLEASE don't be rude. I was not rude to you, I only told you that your position is wrong. You said "Perhaps I am David does not understand this phrase?", yet you consider that perfectly fine, yet when I say "Perhaps wellofvow does not understand the concept of "freedom"?" as a rebutal to your comment that is "way past rude"? That's quiet the double standard of rudeness. Please, no name calling, "redhead", "you are like my daughter", etc, and things can be civil. But I find it hard to carry on an intellectual debate when around every corner you find some way to bellittle me and act hostile. I didn't start this topic to deal with discussions like this, so please dont be the one to ruin it. And BTW "sucks" was not even aimed at you and not even a real curse word so, I dont understand what the big deal is.

Now, back to the debate...

The basic laws protects basic rights of humans and whatnot just like the consitution. It does not do it EXACTLY like the constituion but still does it. The constitution isnt perfect either. Perhaps you should take a look at
this page (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00h50)

And I have never said that the goverment is completely innocent of blame for the current economic situation. It is partly to blame although DEFINITLY not mainly or significantly to blame. So if this is "the only point" your challenging me on you seemed to have lost this argument since post one of this thread.



I have already explained this, I don't feel the need to repeat this, and no its not Amir Peretz or the latter.



This I find slightly mysterious. Where did I say that the Minister of Finance was democratically elected? I know he is chosen by the goverment (the PM as far as I know - though Im no expert). I said the FM is part of a democratic country, therefore he cant just tell everyone what to do in regards to finance. This was my point, yet even after I explained it to you initially you STILL dont seem to want to except your mistake.



I will repeat my main point which you have repeatly ignored and pretended it to be something else, because this is my point and not something else

The strike is wrong because whatever their case against the goverment is, will only hurt Israel and the innocent citizens most, will not accomplish anything for the country, and is in most part blaiming the govmernent for something that is not its fault

You wrote in your post (#9) that the finance minister was elected. I wrote in post #10 that he was appointed by the PM. In your post #11, you acknowledged that he was appointed.

This led me to believe that you may not understand the phrase “putting a cap on salaries�. Not everyone on this forum is a native English speaker. I was not being rude. You read something into it that just was not there.

On the other hand, it was pretty obvious that you were being intentionally insulting by asking if I understand the “concept of freedom�. “Concept of freedom� has nothing to do with the discussion thread. It was also deliberately insulting to say that it appears that I “do not understand my country�.

My comment about redheads was wry. Any parent of a redhead knows what I am talking about. I was married to a redhead and have 3 redheaded children. This is not name-calling. Chill out.

The salary of the president of the United States always used to be $100,000, but I now read on Yahoo that Clinton and several predecessors received $200,000, but Pres. George W. Bush has been allotted $400,000 per year.

This is the salary of the president of the only superpower of the world. The yearly salary of EVERY member of Knesset (120 of them) is between $80,000-93,000 per year.

In light of these figures, can it be argued that Israeli legislators cannot tighten belts? How can the country protest if these legislators decide to give themselves a raise?

There cannot be a debate or even a discussion when one party (you) keeps writing another party (me) that my position is “wrong�. Discussion is not an exact science, it is an exchange of opinions. When one side insists that an argument contrary to his is “completely wrong�, further discussion automatically halts.

If you want to believe that the government of Israel and all its ministers are largely helpless in managing the economy of the country, you are quite welcome to your belief. If you want to believe that the Histadrut leaders are morons and stupid, as you wrote in one of your posts, you are welcome to this belief too.

At election times, you vote and I’ll vote. As far as this thread goes, I see no sense in continuing my participation, since you declare everything I say is either “rude� or “wrong�.

Oh, and the words “sucks� and “sucking�, in the context in which you used them, are PROFANE. You are NOT the arbitrator of profanity. This is not a belief or opinion. Again, I am disappointed that the moderator did not delete.

[I am David]

You wrote in your post (#9) that the finance minister was elected. I wrote in post #10 that he was appointed by the PM. In your post #11, you acknowledged that he was appointed.

Well that solves that problem doesn it? A use of a word because I don't reherse the Israeli goverment daily, so I used the wrong word carelesly, big deal.

This led me to believe that you may not understand the phrase “putting a cap on salaries�. Not everyone on this forum is a native English speaker. I was not being rude. You read something into it that just was not there.

How could me thinking that Bibi was elected make you think that I don't understand the phrase "putting a cap on salary"? Those are kind of two different subjects, dont you think? No, it didnt lead you to believe that, you are just justifying your asking me a stupid question, so as not to call it insulting, while telling me that my stupid question in retaliation was "insulting". Look, you asked me a stupid question, so I asked you one. Your question was no less insulting then mine, so dont try justifying it, because you cant.

On the other hand, it was pretty obvious that you were being intentionally insulting by asking if I understand the “concept of freedom�. “Concept of freedom� has nothing to do with the discussion thread. It was also deliberately insulting to say that it appears that I “do not understand my country�.

As I said, I only asked that question to give you a taste of your own medicine. Yet I asked it after I explained that freedom has to do with the discussion because a right to choose salary is freedom. You werent particularly clear what workers you meant with a cap on salaries, so I really didn't know. All it took was a "Were talking about public sector workers" response like Medio gave, not an insulting stupid question, to show me what you meant. YOU started it, so dont complain about my stupid question.

The salary of the president of the United States always used to be $100,000, but I now read on Yahoo that Clinton and several predecessors received $200,000, but Pres. George W. Bush has been allotted $400,000 per year.

This is the salary of the president of the only superpower of the world. The yearly salary of EVERY member of Knesset (120 of them) is between $80,000-93,000 per year.

In light of these figures, can it be argued that Israeli legislators cannot tighten belts? How can the country protest if these legislators decide to give themselves a raise?

I never argued against that. My point was was that the way that the Histadrut was going about protesting this was incredibly stupid, selfish, and anti-progress. Simply because the protest would damage Israels economy far beyond what it is already damaged (-4 billion dollars a day), thus hurting innocent people, forcing bussiness to close, losing export partners, etc etc. This is not progress, and will get the country no where. You have not adressed this point, and for all your complaining about arguments being "not an exact science", you cannot seem to explain the benifits of a massive general strike, or at least benifits so great that they justify the improverishing of the israeli economy beyond what it already is. Do you think a few 10 thousand shekels of a wage here or there can make up for minus 4 billion dollars a day? Or a lose of long-term, international export parters because they deem the Israeli economy too instable? Hmmmm?

If you want to believe that the government of Israel and all its ministers are largely helpless in managing the economy of the country, you are quite welcome to your belief. If you want to believe that the Histadrut leaders are morons and stupid, as you wrote in one of your posts, you are welcome to this belief too.

I didn't say they were helpless, I said they werent magicians...

There cannot be a debate or even a discussion when one party (you) keeps writing another party (me) that my position is “wrong�. Discussion is not an exact science, it is an exchange of opinions.

Actually there can be a discussion like that. Want to know how it works? You try and prove me wrong on me accusing you wrong. Ok not that hard, is it? You say discussion is not an exact science? Who said it is? Sorry but your confusing things. DISCUSSION may not be exact, but the TOPICS of discussion can be. Some things are factual, even morally based, but they still can be viewed as "wrong" or "right" if your only willing to admit or understand it.

When one side insists that an argument contrary to his is “completely wrong�, further discussion automatically halts.

Sorry, but according to you, that isnt even true ;) LOL!

Oh, and the words “sucks� and “sucking�, in the context in which you used them, are PROFANE. You are NOT the arbitrator of profanity. This is not a belief or opinion. Again, I am disappointed that the moderator did not delete.

I am not the arbitrator, but the entire US is. Sucks is only considered exremely mildly profane in only extremely formal situations. If a mod deletes it, its just to keep you from complaining...

So that wraps it up. Actually you are the one halting this debate because you refuse to argue my main point, and instead are intent on accusing me of being insulting, yet justifying your own insulting remarks, as well as saying that in essence, "no one can be right", thus an argument based on right or wrong is pointless. So that basically means you lost, because you can no longer argue the actually argument, and can instead only say that "i cant be wrong because there is no right". Thats what people say when they lose a debate.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
Well that solves that problem doesn it? A use of a word because I don't reherse the Israeli goverment daily, so I used the wrong word carelesly, big deal.



How could me thinking that Bibi was elected make you think that I don't understand the phrase "putting a cap on salary"? Those are kind of two different subjects, dont you think? No, it didnt lead you to believe that, you are just justifying your asking me a stupid question, so as not to call it insulting, while telling me that my stupid question in retaliation was "insulting". Look, you asked me a stupid question, so I asked you one. Your question was no less insulting then mine, so dont try justifying it, because you cant.



As I said, I only asked that question to give you a taste of your own medicine. Yet I asked it after I explained that freedom has to do with the discussion because a right to choose salary is freedom. You werent particularly clear what workers you meant with a cap on salaries, so I really didn't know. All it took was a "Were talking about public sector workers" response like Medio gave, not an insulting stupid question, to show me what you meant. YOU started it, so dont complain about my stupid question.



I never argued against that. My point was was that the way that the Histadrut was going about protesting this was incredibly stupid, selfish, and anti-progress. Simply because the protest would damage Israels economy far beyond what it is already damaged (-4 billion dollars a day), thus hurting innocent people, forcing bussiness to close, losing export partners, etc etc. This is not progress, and will get the country no where. You have not adressed this point, and for all your complaining about arguments being "not an exact science", you cannot seem to explain the benifits of a massive general strike, or at least benifits so great that they justify the improverishing of the israeli economy beyond what it already is. Do you think a few 10 thousand shekels of a wage here or there can make up for minus 4 billion dollars a day? Or a lose of long-term, international export parters because they deem the Israeli economy too instable? Hmmmm?



I didn't say they were helpless, I said they werent magicians...



Actually there can be a discussion like that. Want to know how it works? You try and prove me wrong on me accusing you wrong. Ok not that hard, is it? You say discussion is not an exact science? Who said it is? Sorry but your confusing things. DISCUSSION may not be exact, but the TOPICS of discussion can be. Some things are factual, even morally based, but they still can be viewed as "wrong" or "right" if your only willing to admit or understand it.



Sorry, but according to you, that isnt even true ;) LOL!



I am not the arbitrator, but the entire US is. Sucks is only considered exremely mildly profane in only extremely formal situations. If a mod deletes it, its just to keep you from complaining...

So that wraps it up. Actually you are the one halting this debate because you refuse to argue my main point, and instead are intent on accusing me of being insulting, yet justifying your own insulting remarks, as well as saying that in essence, "no one can be right", thus an argument based on right or wrong is pointless. So that basically means you lost, because you can no longer argue the actually argument, and can instead only say that "i cant be wrong because there is no right". Thats what people say when they lose a debate.

I happen to think words ARE a "big deal". You justified a line of thought on the predicate that the Min of Fin was elected, when he is not. One should take responsibility for one's words.

Saying that the "entire US" is the arbiter of profanity is ridiculous. In my family, social, and professional circles, the word "sucks" is never used, unless discussing infant feeding practices.

"No, it didn't lead you to believe that". It is pretentious at the least for anyone to claim that another's declaration of how a conclusion was arrived at is false. You have no idea of how my thought processes work. To tell me that this is not what I thought is equal to calling me a liar. This is not very nice.

You accuse me of various devices to "justify" my remarks, and then bash. You deny that my attempted explanations are sincere, but only a loser's justification.

You use the word "stupid" very frequently. I have not used it ever.

I have never heard the notion that "choosing a salary" is a "freedom".

In your beginning post #1, you stated that "the government can't help these things [not having money]", and in your post #9, write "How can the government get money from nowhere?

Government gets money from taxation and from loans from other governments. The government decides where to "spend" this money. I have not understood from your posts your thoughts about the economy - I assume that you do NOT think that the government collects money by going house to house like the Cancer Drive, so how DO you think the government gets money?

- The government could legislate a salary cap.
- The government could regulate bank fees (this is something that infuriates me bigtime)
- The government could revise the tax laws.
- There have been numerous fraud cases involving prominent legislators - close loopholes with laws and prosecute.
- Investigate where the money comes for well-heeled "think tanks", and, more important, where the money goes. Are recipients taxed?

I will say this only once more. I DO NOT LIKE STRIKES. During strikes, I am personally stressed and suffer discomforts. However, I also do not like the idea of the small people being taxed to the ground for services not received in the end, being taken advantage of by fat-cat banks, and so on.

Israel has been burdened by most of its ministers of finance not having a clue about economics. They are usually party hacks with either a purchased university degree, or one that is completely irrelevant for the post. Netanyahu is supposed to have an MBA. A Histadrut strike is bad, Netanyahu's arrogance is also bad.

Nobody has addressed my comments about unemployment worsened by the large influx of immigrants from the Former Soviet Union, and very recently from Latin America.

Businesses have closed because people simply have much less money to spend. Import partners have been lost because of the unstable environment. I do not see why the strike has anything at all to do with these.

One more real-time example: I am a university worker. When my children and I were studying, our tuition was "paid" (waived) as one of the perqs of my being a university worker. HOWEVER, guess what? I HAD TO PAY INCOME TAX on the tuitions! Therefore, my take-home salary was reduced.

Please try to tone down the ad hominem attacks and sophomoric sophistry. It would be refreshing to see a post from I am David without the word "stupid", without generalizations that cannot be backed up, and without putting arguments in black and white.

I have said that strikes are bad, and also that the government is in charge of where money comes from and where money goes, and that it doesn't seem to be handling things well. I have posed questions about where belt tightening can happen that would mollify the tempers of the strike leaders.

If you want to get back on track, then do so.

[I am David]

I happen to think words ARE a "big deal". You justified a line of thought on the predicate that the Min of Fin was elected, when he is not. One should take responsibility for one's words.

So your perfect? You dont ever ever ever use the wrong word no matter what the case is? When someone is writing something quickly, and they accidentally use a wrong word, but later clarify their meaning, it is NOT a big deal, especially in a simple discussion.

Why is saying that the entire US is the arbitrar of profanity ridiculous? doesnt the masses usually determine what word is profane or not? I am from the US, therefore my vocab will most likely be determined by what the US vocab is...

"No, it didn't lead you to believe that". It is pretentious at the least for anyone to claim that another's declaration of how a conclusion was arrived at is false. You have no idea of how my thought processes work. To tell me that this is not what I thought is equal to calling me a liar. This is not very nice.

No its not pretentious of me at all. I am not saying I know how your thought process work, but the reasoning you gave for why you actually thought that I didn't know what "put a cap on salary" meant is absurd. You just needed to find someway to say that, you actually thought that I didnt know what put a cap on salary meant, so that you could say that your question was not insulting, while mine was.

You use the word "stupid" very frequently. I have not used it ever.

Big deal, get over it. If I called you stupid, that may be rude, but I only called people, a group's actions stupid, people not even from this forum (most likely), so I have every right to call something that I believe to be stupid, well, stupid! Yes the strike is stupid. How does that de-legitamize my argument? What is your point even? Stupid is not a profane word in itself. If you think it is, I suggest you learn better english before you get into debates with native english speakers and waste their time by making a huge deal of the usage of the word a stupid word like -- "stupid"! :D


I have never heard the notion that "choosing a salary" is a "freedom".

How can that not be freedom? Are you saying that the right to choose what an employees salary will be in a private company is not freedom? Are you saying that, if for example, all private companies/bussiness in America had to use pre-set wages that the goverment gave them, that that wouldnt be less freedom? How can you possibly say this?

In your beginning post #1, you stated that "the government can't help these things [not having money]", and in your post #9, write "How can the government get money from nowhere?

Government gets money from taxation and from loans from other governments. The government decides where to "spend" this money. I have not understood from your posts your thoughts about the economy - I assume that you do NOT think that the government collects money by going house to house like the Cancer Drive, so how DO you think the government gets money?

You miss the point completely. I was not saying the goverment has NO money. My point was that, if for example the goverment needed EXTRA money to improve the economy, and the population couldnt be taxed anymore without hurting the economy in that way, where WOULD they get the extra money from? If they didnt get it internatianally, and nothing special happened, they would have no way of , and I quote myself "getting the money from nowhere". They arent magicians. The goverment needs money for defense, the WB fence, the economy, etc etc, but where can the money be gotten from when the taxes are maxed, and the foreign aid doesnt cover that? Thats why Israel is hopping to cut the budget by many billions because they simply dont HAVE the money to spend. And dont say they could cut wages and things, because that extra money would NEVER cover anywhere close to what money is needed.

Nobody has addressed my comments about unemployment worsened by the large influx of immigrants from the Former Soviet Union, and very recently from Latin America.

Israel is a nation of emigrants, to say that no more immagrants will be allowed just because of temporary economic effects is absurd. It is largely the immagrants from Russia and abroad with their scientific knowledge that is responsible for Israel's high-tech edge, which is one of the main areas of the economy that is the life blood of Israel.

Businesses have closed because people simply have much less money to spend. Import partners have been lost because of the unstable environment. I do not see why the strike has anything at all to do with these.

I am at a lose how you did not know what I meant. I made it so clear, its not even funny. This is why theres no real debate, because you question even the most simple of explanations from me. I made it perfectly clear that the strike would cause MORE bussiness to close. I hope you understand the concept that once some bussiness close for one reason, more can still close for another reason? Oh, and I am asking that sincerly this time, since you actually didnt get the point of my post last time. And I quote myself exactly:

Simply because the protest would damage Israels economy far beyond what it is already damaged (-4 billion dollars a day), thus hurting innocent people, forcing bussiness to close, losing export partners, etc etc.

Please try to tone down the ad hominem attacks and sophomoric sophistry. It would be refreshing to see a post from I am David without the word "stupid", without generalizations that cannot be backed up, and without putting arguments in black and white.

What add hominem attacks? My argument from the beginning was purely that the general strike was destructive to Israel, that its motivations were stupid, and that it was largely blaiming the goverment for something that wasnt its fault. If I have ever deviated from this argument in certian paragraphs, it is to defend against allegations brought up by YOU that I was being insulting or derailing the debate. If you hadnt introduced inherintly insulting questions like "I wonder if I am David knows the meaning of the phrase 'put a cap on salaries'?", and petty name calling like "redhead" (which I had no idea what you meant by that), as well as general accusations that my language, which was not even directed at you, was inherintly insulting, then this debate could have been civil and intellectual. Instead it has devolved into you calling me names and accusing me of being insulting, all the while ignoring the MAIN argument I have presented, and me trying to just argue my point and defent against your ridiculous accusations.

It was YOU who derailed this debate into a festival of name calling and rude accusations, because I started this topic purely intrested in getting my point across that the General strike was an inconsiderate and backwards thing to do (not to mention stupid), Yet your first post adress towards me was extremely agressive and rudly accusing. Why dont you go back and read it (#7). You rudely accused me of having "a heck of a lot of nerve", and acting like I was attacking you in the first place "EXCUSE me??". After this post I felt rather agitated and unnerved, so dont blame me for being equally rude later on. You reap what you sow - you were rude, I will therefore not be perfectly polite, but don't blame me for starting the rudeness.

I have said that strikes are bad, and also that the government is in charge of where money comes from and where money goes, and that it doesn't seem to be handling things well. I have posed questions about where belt tightening can happen that would mollify the tempers of the strike leaders.

You have said that strikes are bad, HOWEVER you still claim that the Histrudrut has justification for doing what it did. My argument is that they Don't have justification for what the PLANNED to do because what they were going to do was so bad it far outshined what the goverment was doing. You have not argued this, thus YOU are the one who should get back on track, not me. Why don't you.

[wellofvow]

So your perfect? You dont ever ever ever use the wrong word no matter what the case is?

I am not perfect, but no, I do not ever ever ever "use the wrong word".

Stupid is not a profane word in itself. If you think it is, I suggest you learn better english before you get into debates with native english speakers and waste their time...

This was highly amusing. I am a third generation American. I attended one of the 200 top high schools in the entire United States, and participated in the first experimental Advanced Placement Programs, English being one of them. In October 1981, 12 years after completing my undergraduate degree, and 12 years after moving to a non-English-speaking country, I took the GRE (Graduate Record Exam) and scored in the top 1% verbal. I am an English medical editor, and have published in peer-reviewed professional journals.

How can that not be freedom? Are you saying that the right to choose what an employees salary will be in a private company is not freedom?

This is not "freedom", this is "capitalism".

where can the money be gotten from when the taxes are maxed, and the foreign aid doesnt cover that?

Note this Jerusalem Post Online article:
Nov. 11, 2003
Treasury: State-owned monopolies cost consumers $900m. a year
By MATI WAGNER

Monopolistic inefficiencies at Israel Electric (IE), Tnuva, Oil Refineries, the Ports Authority, and Bezeq cost the nation close to $900 million a year, according to a report released Monday by Treasury economist Dr. Eldad Shidlovsky.

Shidlovsky said he refrained from adding up the aggregate price tag because estimates are based on different periods. However, he agreed that the $900m. estimate was not far off the mark as none of the companies included in the report have undergone serious streamlining.

His survey provides ample ammunition for the Treasury's free market campaign to institute sweeping reforms in the economy.

IE employs at least 3,000 superfluous workers and provides all workers with free electricity. These distortions cost $524m. a year, Shidlovsky said.

Free electricity alone cost $8.5m. assuming IE workers' usage is in line with the average.
The average wage at IE in 2002 was NIS 18,300 a month, while the average wage was NIS 7,147.

The Treasury calculates that IE workers' inflated pension terms cost consumers an extra $167m. a year. IE pensioners enjoy post-retirement promotions, receive more pension provisions from IE, and retire at 55, as opposed to 65 in other industries.

The ports in Ashdod, Eilat, and Haifa pay bloated salaries, which make up half of the Ports Authority's expenditures, and are slow to streamline operations.

The average port worker received NIS 22,430 a month in 2002. As a result, exporters and importers overpay NIS 150m. to NIS 200m. a year for port services.

Milk production, controlled by the Dairy Committee, a voluntary cartel, overcompensates dairy farmers and prevents effective competition between Tnuva, Tara, and Strauss, the three dairy products producers. Tnuva, which supplies raw milk to the other two, controls 70% of the market, while Strauss and Tara each has a 12% share.

A variety of market inefficiencies, such as foreign trade barriers and low production levels, costs consumers $110m. a year.

In 2002, a liter of milk cost 60% more than in the US – NIS 4.6 compared to NIS 2.89.
Israelis also pay more for gasoline than Americans. In July, a liter of 95-octane gas there cost NIS 1.21 compared to NIS 1.51 here.

National Infrastructure Minister Yosef Paritzky, speaking during the opening of a new oil terminal in Ashdod, said Monday he would continue to push for splitting and privatizing Oil Refineries.

Israelis also pay more for water than in other Western countries, except Germany and Britain.

According to the Grunau Committee, Bezeq's profits were NIS 400m. more than it should have been in a competitive market.
*****
In light of this, I don't buy your rant about the government being unable to "find" money out there that is going into someone's very deep pockets.

Israel is a nation of immigrants [sic], to say that no more immagrants will be allowed just because of temporary economic effects is absurd. It is largely the immagrants from Russia and abroad with their scientific knowledge that is responsible for Israel's high-tech edge...

What is absurd is your total twisting of what I wrote. I wrote that the large influx of immigrants from the FSU and Latin America increased unemployment figures. There were suddenly hundreds of thousands of people who were immediate residents of Israel, did not have jobs because they spoke not a word of Hebrew, and so were put on the "unemployed" roster.

How can you possibly get from this that I said that no more immigrants be allowed into Israel? My late husband and I were immigrants, so were my sib, my SIL, my mother, and most of my friends.

Many Russians who came to Israel were formidable mathematicians and physicists, and very knowledgeable in other exact and natural sciences. However, the immigrants were very, very far from being "responsible for Israel's high-tech edge". Their physicians and researchers were very poor, compared with Israelis, and had to be re-educated. You simply do not know what you are talking about on this point, you were not and are not here.

Horse, mule, horse, mule. My ancestors were never close to Anatevka.

[danholo]

Anatevka! .. Anatevka! .. Anatevka! .. Anatevka! I always liked that movie/musical.

[I am David]

I am not perfect, but no, I do not ever ever ever "use the wrong word".


No one is capable of never using the wrong word. Even if you rarely use it now, you must have when you were younger and less educated. Besides that isnt even the point. I made a mistake and rectified it. End of story. Isn't that enough for you or do you want to argue the point to your death?

This was highly amusing. I am a third generation American. I attended one of the 200 top high schools in the entire United States, and participated in the first experimental Advanced Placement Programs, English being one of them. In October 1981, 12 years after completing my undergraduate degree, and 12 years after moving to a non-English-speaking country, I took the GRE (Graduate Record Exam) and scored in the top 1% verbal. I am an English medical editor, and have published in peer-reviewed professional journals.

Ok -- so you are over sensative to common language, which might also result if you werent a native english speaker. So same effect. Either way, stupid is a perfectly fine word to use when something is stupid, except when used to insult someone personally. I was calling the actions of the general strike stupid. So get over it. Same with sucks.

This is not "freedom", this is "capitalism".

Sorry, but the right for private bussiness to choose what wages to pay their workers is part of overall freedom. It is also part of capatalism. The two do not contradict eachother. Therefore the fact that its also capatilism does not deny that it is also a freedom -- the freedom to choose what you pay your workers.

In light of this, I don't buy your rant about the government being unable to "find" money out there that is going into someone's very deep pockets.

Find extra money, or solve the economic problem, period? Sorry but cutting out inneficiencies and reducing curruption is not the only thing that will fix the economy. Things like the intifada, and poor global relations can only be controlled so much by the goverment. The goverment is not entirely, or mainly responsible for the economic recession, so saying that cutting out some innefiencies is the answer to all is absurd. AGAIN, after about the 10,000,000th time, I'm not arguing that the goverment can't do better, but that...

The strike is wrong because whatever their case against the goverment is, the strike will only hurt Israel and the innocent citizens most, will not accomplish anything for the country, and is in largely blaiming the govmernent for something that is not its fault

You have not seemed to acknowledged this in 2 pages of discussion, please do now.

What is absurd is your total twisting of what I wrote. I wrote that the large influx of immigrants from the FSU and Latin America increased unemployment figures. There were suddenly hundreds of thousands of people who were immediate residents of Israel, did not have jobs because they spoke not a word of Hebrew, and so were put on the "unemployed" roster.

This you complain about after you have done nothing BUT twist what I wrote for the past two pages? How Ironic. My original point stands, it is better for Israel to have more people than less, even if the temporary economic results are not entirely bennificial.

How can you possibly get from this that I said that no more immigrants be allowed into Israel?

I so no explanation of what you think about the recent immagrant situation. What IS your point? The only thing one could draw is that you meant no new immagrants should be allowed. You complained that recent immagrants took jobs from Israelis already there, so please tell me then, what exactly you were complaining about?

Many Russians who came to Israel were formidable mathematicians and physicists, and very knowledgeable in other exact and natural sciences. However, the immigrants were very, very far from being "responsible for Israel's high-tech edge". Their physicians and researchers were very poor, compared with Israelis, and had to be re-educated. You simply do not know what you are talking about on this point, you were not and are not here.

As I said, Israel is a NATION of immagrants. Aside from a very small amount of Palestinians who were living there before, and did not leave the country, Israel is nothing but Imaggrants, originally. Thus a majority of the high-tech edge must have been gotten from gasp - immagrants, somewhere along the line! I said this to illustrate my point that Immagrants are the lifeblood of Israel. And yes, the Russians who had scientific knowledge were largely responsible for Israel's high tech edge. They may not have spoke Hebrew, but that doesnt negate their scientific knowledge, and I'm not exactly sure how re-educating them in certain areas will either.

BTW, I don't need to have been there or be there to know about this, it's history - not a personal experience. Thats why I do know about it.

Horse, mule, horse, mule. My ancestors were never close to Anatevka.

And you fail to prove a point...

[Mediocrates]

Foreigners expulsion boosts work
Mati Wagner Nov. 11, 2003

The expulsion of 30,000 foreign workers this year helped contribute to a sharp increase in Israeli construction workers, Dr. Michel Strawczynski, deputy head of research at Bank of Israel, said on Monday.

Strawczynski said another boon to employment would be an amendment in the Law for Capital Investment Encouragement that would make it easier for employers to hire low-skilled workers.

According to a proposed change in the law, included in the 2004 budget, the central criterion for receiving state-funded grants is exports.

"Many businesses situated in outlying areas that do not have large exports will miss out. Instead, employment should be the central criterion," he said.

Strawczynski's view that Israelis will eventually replace foreigners in the construction sector and other manual labor positions is not shared by building contractors.

Last week the Contractors' Association warned that the expulsion of foreign workers would result in a wave of layoffs in higher-echelon positions such as building engineers, architects, and supervisors. The association said that despite repeated attempts since 1967 to encourage Israelis to join the construction field, there has been only a lukewarm response.

However, Strawczynski said he believes it is reasonable to expect at least 60,000 Israelis to replace positions held by foreign workers.

"Many foreigners occupy jobs like a tenant occupies a room," he said. "When the foreigner leaves his job it becomes vacant like a room does. In some cases the job-room analogy does not hold true. When the foreigner leaves he takes his job with him.

"More than anything it is a function of money. The more the foreigner gets paid the better the chances that his job will be similar to a room which can be vacated for an Israeli," he said.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/Printer&cid=1068525553352

[I am David]

Yeah I read that earlier today...glad to hear it. Now we just need to completely exclude Palestinians from working in Israel. Also the bad things about no foreign workers will go away with time, if they arent there.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David
Sorry, but the right for private bussiness to choose what wages to pay their workers is part of overall freedom. It is also part of capatalism. The two do not contradict eachother. Therefore the fact that its also capatilism does not deny that it is also a freedom -- the freedom to choose what you pay your workers.

The strike is wrong because whatever their case against the goverment is, the strike will only hurt Israel and the innocent citizens most, will not accomplish anything for the country, and is in largely blaiming the govmernent for something that is not its fault

You have not seemed to acknowledged this in 2 pages of discussion, please do now.



This you complain about after you have done nothing BUT twist what I wrote for the past two pages? How Ironic. My original point stands, it is better for Israel to have more people than less, even if the temporary economic results are not entirely bennificial.

I so no explanation of what you think about the recent immagrant situation. What IS your point? The only thing one could draw is that you meant no new immagrants should be allowed. You complained that recent immagrants took jobs from Israelis already there, so please tell me then, what exactly you were complaining about?

As I said, Israel is a NATION of immagrants. Aside from a very small amount of Palestinians who were living there before, and did not leave the country, Israel is nothing but Imaggrants, originally. Thus a majority of the high-tech edge must have been gotten from gasp - immagrants, somewhere along the line! I said this to illustrate my point that Immagrants are the lifeblood of Israel. And yes, the Russians who had scientific knowledge were largely responsible for Israel's high tech edge. They may not have spoke Hebrew, but that doesnt negate their scientific knowledge, and I'm not exactly sure how re-educating them in certain areas will either.

BTW, I don't need to have been there or be there to know about this, it's history - not a personal experience. Thats why I do know about it.

And you fail to prove a point...

Capitalism is the "freedom", if you insist, to set whatever wage the employer wants to pay his workers.

Guess what? I agree with what you insist on writing about a general strike - or any strike for that matter - EXCEPT for the last line that the government is not largely responsible.

As a point of curiosity - where do YOU put the largest part of the "blame" for economic depression in ANY society?

If you could get past your obvious rage at everything and anything I have written to READ what I have written, you would see that I simply state that a large influx of immigrants will artificially inflate the unemployment figures. Nowhere do I write anything about curtailing immigration. I do not understand how you could have possibly derived anti-immigrant prejudice from my posts.

No, Russians were NOT responsible for Israel's high-tech edge. You can claim that you are right and I am wrong until the cows come home, but shouting louder than I does not make everything you claim right.

Your last remark about Russian immigrant superior technology is strange. You know it because it is "history", while I who have lived with it since the first aliya in the early 1970s know nothing?

Sayanara. I have other fish to fry, so if you want to twist this post around too, I won't be responding. Have a nice day.

[I am David]

Originally posted by wellofvow
Capitalism is the "freedom", if you insist, to set whatever wage the employer wants to pay his workers.

Guess what? I agree with what you insist on writing about a general strike - or any strike for that matter - EXCEPT for the last line that the government is not largely responsible.

As a point of curiosity - where do YOU put the largest part of the "blame" for economic depression in ANY society?

If you could get past your obvious rage at everything and anything I have written to READ what I have written, you would see that I simply state that a large influx of immigrants will artificially inflate the unemployment figures. Nowhere do I write anything about curtailing immigration. I do not understand how you could have possibly derived anti-immigrant prejudice from my posts.

No, Russians were NOT responsible for Israel's high-tech edge. You can claim that you are right and I am wrong until the cows come home, but shouting louder than I does not make everything you claim right.

Your last remark about Russian immigrant superior technology is strange. You know it because it is "history", while I who have lived with it since the first aliya in the early 1970s know nothing?

Sayanara. I have other fish to fry, so if you want to twist this post around too, I won't be responding. Have a nice day.

The gov't in Israel is not largely responsible, I wont bother with other situations because it simply cannot be generalized. Each economic situation is unique and it is no different for this latest economic downturn in Israel. I have already stated that I believe it is because of the intifada, high tech bubble burst, bad global relations (less exporting, boycotts, etc), and a few other minor reasons. I highly doubt the goverment was MUCH worse in the economic good times, so why it would make a difference just because the date is a curiosity. Even so, even if the gov't did get worse in its handling of the economy, the other reasons that I stated are still the most likely and obvious for the economic dowturn.

You do not understand how I could have derived anti-immagration prejudice from your posts? Well, mabye it was because you didn't give a sufficent explanation of what you meant?

I said that Russian immagration was a large part of the high - skilled scientists that are responsible for Israel' high tech edge.

I do not see why I cannot know the history of Israel. There are many people who know less about their own country than foreigners, even though they "lived through it". And sorry, but immagrants effect on Israels high tech edge is not the most measurable media story, or something that happens fast enough that you would even realized it. Therefore it is ignorant to assume that just because you lived through a period in a country, you have a right to automatically declare yourself as one with superior knowledge on the subject. And I never said you know nothing on the subject, so I have no idea where you got that from.

And on the subject itself, pardon me for questioning your history knowledge of Israel once again, but the first Aliyah did not happen in the 1970s, but rather in the 1880s. The first three Aliyahs consisted largely of Russian immagration. All in all, Jews who came from Russia somewhere along their ancestry make up a considerable part of Israels population. So they must have a somewhat SUBSTANTIAL part of the high tech edge, eh?, especially since they had good scientific knowledge.

And just from a little bit of internet searching, I came up with this quote from the virtual jewish librray:

A further advantage is the quality of its medical staff and researchers, recently grown in size as a result of the Russian immigration.

... When speaking of Israels high-tech edge.

I have read it elswhere too, and much more clear. I don't see why Russians wouldnt contribute to the high tech edge.

Sayanara. I have other fish to fry, so if you want to twist this post around too, I won't be responding. Have a nice day.

I do not twist posts around, but I am glad you conceeded that you can no longer participate in this debate for lack of an actual argument.

[wellofvow]

Originally posted by I am David

I do not twist posts around, but I am glad you conceeded that you can no longer participate in this debate for lack of an actual argument.

Quod est demonstrandum.

Dahlink, pleese telll moi wear eye rote I "conceeded that [I] can no longer participate in this debate for lack of an actual argument".

I wrote I have other fish to fry. Oh, sorry. You'll probably interpret this as my calling you a fish.

WAKE UP AND CONCEDE THE HUMMUS. THIS IS WHAT I MEANT BY TWISTING MY WORDS AROUND, AND PUTTING THINGS INTO THEM THAT NOBODY ELSE WOULD HAVE IMAGINED.

You could not "debate" your way out of a paper bag.

[I am David]

Well you say what you want, but the lack of an actual argument throughout this debate leads me to believe that the REAL reason why you "wont be responding" is that you dont have anything good to say in respect to the argument. This is why I am not twisting anything, wether you admit it or not by not responding you have conceeded your lack of an argument.

I can not "Debate my way out of a paper bag", then are YOU the one without an argument, not me? I have never hesitated to argue my point, but it seems you took every chance you could to beat around the bush and avoid the issue. It's better to stop digging at this point.