Peace plan: Separate Israel and Palestine with UN guarantee

[old-reb]

They made a peace plan in Bosnia that seperated the waring camps and inforced the peace with UN Forces. Did it work? Should we try it in Israel?

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Srebrencia:

Some six hundred Dutch peacekeepers were assigned to safeguard civilians in Srebrenica but instead got involved in the local quagmire. The deal was initially for the Bosnian Muslim forces under Naser Oric to disarm and give up their strategic positions to the UN peacekeepers in exchange for the area to be proclaimed a safe zone which would entail NATO bombing Serb positions if they were to cross into Srebrenica. However the Dutch agreed to let the Muslim forces retain their weapons and keep trenches just behind the Dutch positions. This infuriated the Serbs as the Muslims used this to their advantage, setting out in raids against surrounding Serb villages in which none were spared, including women and children, such as in the village of Kravica on January 7, 1993 (Orthodox Christmas). The Muslim forces would then retreat into the UN Safe Zone leaving the Serbs powerless to pursue the offenders and defenceless at the hands of these men who struck mostly at night. The Dutch themselves witnessed the Muslim raids into Serb territory which is estimated to have cost close to 2,000 Serb lives.
On July 7 1995 , the Bosnian Serb forces led by general Ratko Mlad occupied the enclave following which Muslim troops chose to breach the Serb encirclement and flee over into Muslim-held territory instead of standing their ground. Oriæ was evacuated by a UN helicopter to Tuzla just a few days prior to the offensive. The Serb general Ratko Mladic allowed for buses to evacuate Muslim women and children who wished to leave the former enclave. They were transported safely to Kladanj in Muslim-held territory where most continued along to Tuzla.

[humus_sapiens]

Originally posted by old-reb
They made a peace plan in Bosnia that seperated the waring camps and inforced the peace with UN Forces. Did it work? Should we try it in Israel?
...

Israel already has enough experience with the UN peacekeepers, who are currently supposed to enforce peace across the Israel-Lebanon border recognized by the UN. Their idea of peace does not exclude Hizb-Allah's shelling of Israeli civilians.

Another piece of UN reliability was demonstrated in Sinai when on May 16, 1967 Nasser told them to get out. The last brave UN peacekeeper has left Sinal and Gaza by May 19, thereby opening Nasser way to "throw the Jews into the sea".

[Canajew]

It is abundantly clear that at the present time the United Nations is incapable of organizing or deploying a security force to do anything properly.

This makes perfect sense, of course, given the UNs dysfunctional and irreperable political decision making apparatus, its bureaucracy and its dependency on member states to supply both troops and funding.

they screwed up in Bosnia, they screwed up in Rwanda, and they have screwed up pretty much everywhere else as well when pushed.

It is not necessarily the fault of the common soldier or even the general on the ground, but of the organization itself, which is incapable, as it is presently constituted, of mobilizing an adequate force with adequate resources with an adequate decision making process to allow for decisions to be taken to ensure the goals for which the force was organized in the first place.

[danholo]

I think the separation is under way already. The security fence will contribute highly for this and constitute a de facto border between the two peoples. Although it might be diverted in the future and that is a possibility I don't believe it will. Palestinian crimes against Israelis have contributed enough for Israel to make the decision on where this "border" will be. Although Palestinians won't get their state soon, it's in the making and the border is there.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by danholo
I think the separation is under way already. The security fence will contribute highly for this and constitute a de facto border between the two peoples. Although it might be diverted in the future and that is a possibility I don't believe it will. Palestinian crimes against Israelis have contributed enough for Israel to make the decision on where this "border" will be. Although Palestinians won't get their state soon, it's in the making and the border is there.

The fence is working, I recall reading about a 16 year old Palestine youth having to walk 5 miles along the fence to get across and blew himself up when Israel police approached him.

Arafat wanting peace is an indication that he is a tiger outside the cage and wants the UN to help him get rid of the cage.

old reb

[rhodescholar]

Originally posted by Canajew
It is abundantly clear that at the present time the United Nations is incapable of organizing or deploying a security force to do anything properly.

Don't forget the UN's denial of a videotape showing UN-labeled vehicles being used by iranian soldiers - aka hezbollah - to kidnap 3 IDF soldiers in 2000. Israel's best friend, Kofi Annan spent several months denying the existence of this tape before capitulating when it "miraculously" turned up. I wonder how much pressure came from the US to make sure it was finally located.

Placing ANY outsiders in the area to provide "security" is absurd. They would simply prevent israeli retalitation for terrorism, since we all know which side wears a uniform.

ATTACK IRAN NOW

[Donald]

Will there ever be peace over there so that the genius of the peoples of the region can be fully realized and exercised? Well, it seems to me that if this is ever to happen, then a powerful, firm guarantee of the agreed borders by all the nations, especially by all the major powers, along with real help from the powerful nations in patrolling the agreed borders, would be an essential ingredient in the mix, to say the least. In fact, it would effectively settle that important factor--secure borders. This condition, along with Israel's exceedingly powerful army and its immense weapons arsenal should, in an era of agreed peace, be sufficient to protect the state from any serious attack by the residual, aging, anti-peace fanatics.

An eventual peace agreement with reasonable conditions, including guaranteed borders with international (and local) enforcement, would soon bring huge prosperity to the whole region--beginning with a resurgent tourist industry. This would help immensely to eventually (if not quickly) change the current mindset and bring an end to the seemingly endless blind hatred and thirsting for revenge.

Where the borders are to be is the big question. The enforcement of those borders is a lesser problem.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Donald
Will there ever be peace over there so that the genius of the peoples of the region can be fully realized and exercised?

Hmmm, peace, no, calm, maybe.

Its funny that within 50 years with no peace, the people of Israel have realized their genius and used it to build paradise in the desert and become one of the leading medical and technological forces in the world.

Now, the question is, will the rest o fthe people in that region start using a 1/5 of their brains?

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald
Will there ever be peace over there so that the genius of the peoples of the region can be fully realized and exercised? Well, it seems to me that if this is ever to happen, then a powerful, firm guarantee of the agreed borders by all the nations, especially by all the major powers, along with real help from the powerful nations in patrolling the agreed borders, would be an essential ingredient in the mix, to say the least. In fact, it would effectively settle that important factor--secure borders.

Would you include the Arab/Muslim nations in this agreement? Would the Arab/Muslim nations have to recognize Israel's right to exist?

Would Arab/Muslim nations be among those patrolling the borders?

What if the patrolling of the borders, by powerful nations, caused more terrorist attacks to occur within Israel?

The UN has troops in Lebanon, but that didn't stop terrorists from kidnapping Israelis, right in front of the UN troops.

This condition, along with Israel's exceedingly powerful army and its immense weapons arsenal should, in an era of agreed peace, be sufficient to protect the state from any serious attack by the residual, aging, anti-peace fanatics.

The average age of the terrorist suicide bombers is about 19. Not really aging. As part of the peace, are the Arab/Muslim nations going to stop teaching hatred of Christians, Jews and Hindus in their schools and mosques? How about the PLO. Palestinian children have been taught since birth to hate Jews, and they are still being taught to hate Jews. Is this type of hateful indoctrination going to stop, as part of your peace plan?

The many members of the Palestinian terrorist groups do not want peace. They only want the total destruction of Israel. They have said this over and over again. How do you limit their influence among the millions of Palestinians who have been taught to hate Jews?

An eventual peace agreement with reasonable conditions, including guaranteed borders with international (and local) enforcement, would soon bring huge prosperity to the whole region--beginning with a resurgent tourist industry. This would help immensely to eventually (if not quickly) change the current mindset and bring an end to the seemingly endless blind hatred and thirsting for revenge.

How would you guarantee the borders? How do you keep troops, who side with the terrorists, out of this equation? If Israel found out that terrorists were planning to strike inside Israel, and the international troops were not going to stop the attack, what would be Israel's options? Would Israel still be able to go after the terrorists if the International troops refused to take action?

Where the borders are to be is the big question. The enforcement of those borders is a lesser problem.

Enforcement is everything. Israel would have to be insured that the foreign troops on it's border with the Palestinians, were truly neutral, and were obligated to defend Israel against terrorist attacks.

No matter what type of peace plan you have, as long as there is international funding for the Palestinian terrorist groups, and as long as millions of Arab/Muslim youth are taught to hate Christians and Jews, there will never be peace.

[minusthejihad]

Sorry, Israel has its own armed forces, and thanks to the rest of the Arab World, the Pals have theirs, though they don't wear uniforms and like to attack civilians.

No troops in Israel except for Israelis!

[Donald]

minusthejihad:

I agree with you about the accomplishments of the Israeli people. Note that I used the words "fully realized" in my post when referring to the genius of the peoples. The technical accomplishments in the region, to date, under difficult circumstances, are truly wonderful. But what I'm really saying is that there's much more invention, industry and spiritual progress yet to come from all the people of the region, if and when they obtain peace. And, in order to obtain that peace, internationally recognized, secure borders will certainly be one important element in the final settlement. That's why it's given such prominence in the Geneva Peace Plan. However, if a final settlement is ever to be achieved, the peoples involved must look to the future and not be forever inflamed and restrained by hatreds arising from past conflicts and injustices.

[CanDo]

Donald, as a test for your peace plan, how about step one being the stopping of the teaching of hatred towards Christians, Jews and Hindus in Arab/Muslim schools and mosques. That type of teaching doesn't just effect Israel and the Palestinians.

Or, perhaps there can be a test run of your peace plan in the Congo or Lebanon or Iraq.

Another way to test your peace plan would be to implement a lesser version in Los Angeles, U.S., where there is a high rate of crime, aka domestic terrorism.

There will be peace when the Arab/Muslim world finds it in their interests to stop inciting hatred towards all other religions, cultures, races and nationalities.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Donald
minusthejihad:

I agree with you about the accomplishments of the Israeli people. Note that I used the words "fully realized" in my post when referring to the genius of the peoples. The technical accomplishments in the region, to date, under difficult circumstances, are truly wonderful. But what I'm really saying is that there's much more invention, industry and spiritual progress yet to come from all the people of the region, if and when they obtain peace. And, in order to obtain that peace, internationally recognized, secure borders will certainly be one important element in the final settlement. That's why it's given such prominence in the Geneva Peace Plan. However, if a final settlement is ever to be achieved, the peoples involved must look to the future and not be forever inflamed and restrained by hatreds arising from past conflicts and injustices.

Donald,

I am encouraged by your optimism, but I resent the fact that you think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involves 2 equal parties. It does not.

Israelis love life, they don't use terrorism, and they certainly do not enjoy murdering innocent civilians. And when a Jew speaks of hatred, our entire community shuns him.

OTH, the Palestinians have nurtured a culture of death. They use their children and the womb as a weapon, and while the Puppet PM talks peace, the other major groups, Hamas, PFLP, Fatah, Islamic Jihad preach more mayhem and murder until there are no more Jews in Israel and Israel is no more.

Sorry, but your ideology has been tried before many times by peace loving Israelis, only to inherit more terror. Since the Palestinians do not have a true quest for peace, they will get dealt borders through unilateral action. You see, if you attack Israel at least three times with the help of your Arab brothers and loose, and then resort to your national export of terrorism to negotiate with, and keep losing, and then have the gall to ask for your own state, in my opinion, you have your cake and are eating it too. They are lucky to be alive, and yet they keep pushing. I say tough luck, better luck next time.

[Donald]

Hello Cando:

"Would you include the Arab/Muslim nations in this agreement? Would the Arab/Muslim nations have to recognize Israel's right to exist?"

Yes, I would. All of them.

"Would Arab/Muslim nations be among those patrolling the borders?"

I don't know. Perhaps together with Israeli soldiers. But then why not, if there is a genuine peace? It might even turn out to be an appropriate symbol of the changed times.

"What if the patrolling of the borders, by powerful nations, caused more terrorist attacks to occur within Israel?"

With a universally agreed and systematically maintained peace plan in place, this should not happen. (It may well be that you have good reason for not trusting your enemy, but with the world agreed on a peace, including all the Arab nations, would it not be worth trying?)

"The UN has troops in Lebanon, but that didn't stop terrorists from kidnapping Israelis, right in front of the UN troops."

I didn't mention the UN in my post. However, whatever the failures of the UN in the past, it has also had successes. The planet might very well have been destroyed by nuclear war during the Cuban Missile Crisis, had the UN not been there to help the leaders of the time negotiate without "losing face". Anyway, at the very least, the UN is the symbol for the planet's future, for "the host of nations" at peace, and it must be involved, if only for humanitarian and symbolic reasons. Of course the peace effort will be given its real power by the universal agreement sincerely made by the contending sides and sincerely guaranteed by all of the powerful nations of the earth.


"The average age of the terrorist suicide bombers is about 19. Not really aging. As part of the peace, are the Arab/Muslim nations going to stop teaching hatred of Christians, Jews and Hindus in their schools and mosques? How about the PLO. Palestinian children have been taught since birth to hate Jews, and they are still being taught to hate Jews. Is this type of hateful indoctrination going to stop, as part of your peace plan?"

Yes, this hateful indoctrination has to stop. I haven't read the Geneva Peace Plan thoroughly yet, but I notice that they give prominence to this factor and propose and require practical measures to end it. (Memo to me. Read the "Road Map" and compare the two plans.)

"The many members of the Palestinian terrorist groups do not want peace. They only want the total destruction of Israel. They have said this over and over again. How do you limit their influence among the millions of Palestinians who have been taught to hate Jews?"

Well, I can't answer this hard question in any definitive way. I simply have to believe that the majority of Palestinians would want a peace plan that meets their aspirations for an independent homeland and offers fair, even generous, compensation for any losses associated with their displacement. I also have to believe, in tandem, that if the vast majority of Palestinians want such a fair peace badly enough, their leaders will go for it.

Note that my understanding is that we're talking about a genuine peace, with the whole world in sincere agreement on it.

"How would you guarantee the borders? How do you keep troops, who side with the terrorists, out of this equation? If Israel found out that terrorists were planning to strike inside Israel, and the international troops were not going to stop the attack, what would be Israel's options? Would Israel still be able to go after the terrorists if the International troops refused to take action?"

With a genuine agreement and the generous settlement of all claims on all sides, only the most fanatical terrorists would attempt to violate the peace. The whole world, including the Arab participants, would be obliged to act forcefully to prevent this and go after the perpetrators. But if such a terrorist act did happen in spite of all the efforts to stop it, then, yes, Israel would be able to go after terrorists. (Moreover, Israeli security forces, including their estimable intelligence echelons, will obviously be on guard against such depredations until, at sometime in the not too distant future, a truly peaceful community exists in the whole of the area.)

"Enforcement is everything. Israel would have to be insured that the foreign troops on it's border with the Palestinians, were truly neutral, and were obligated to defend Israel against terrorist attacks."

Absolutely.

"No matter what type of peace plan you have, as long as there is international funding for the Palestinian terrorist groups, and as long as millions of Arab/Muslim youth are taught to hate Christians and Jews, there will never be peace. "

A genuine peace would end this. Of course, the nations of the world, including the signatories, would have to police the agreement, so that it won't be undermined by the fanatics and their supporters.

__________________

[Donald]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
Donald,

I am encouraged by your optimism, but I resent the fact that you think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict involves 2 equal parties. It does not.

Israelis love life, they don't use terrorism, and they certainly do not enjoy murdering innocent civilians. And when a Jew speaks of hatred, our entire community shuns him.

OTH, the Palestinians have nurtured a culture of death. They use their children and the womb as a weapon, and while the Puppet PM talks peace, the other major groups, Hamas, PFLP, Fatah, Islamic Jihad preach more mayhem and murder until there are no more Jews in Israel and Israel is no more.

Sorry, but your ideology has been tried before many times by peace loving Israelis, only to inherit more terror. Since the Palestinians do not have a true quest for peace, they will get dealt borders through unilateral action. You see, if you attack Israel at least three times with the help of your Arab brothers and loose, and then resort to your national export of terrorism to negotiate with, and keep losing, and then have the gall to ask for your own state, in my opinion, you have your cake and are eating it too. They are lucky to be alive, and yet they keep pushing. I say tough luck, better luck next time.

I don't want to discuss the rights and wrongs of this horrible conflict. I'm only interested in how it can be ended. It can't be allowed to go on forever--or even for much longer-- because, aside from a peace agreement, there is only one other way in which the conflict can end and that is with an epic disaster of earth-shattering proportions. In fact I see it clearly. It is coming right at us like an asteroid and we must stop it now. "Peace now" is the only viable answer.

The people of the world ought to start a "Middle East Peace Fund" by putting a hundred billion into the kitty, to start with. It would be paid out as compensation for lost possessions and lost family members, for buildings vacated, etc., at the time of the peace settlement. If anyone has started one, let me know. I'd be willing to instantly contribute a hundred bucks to a genuine Middle East peace fund run by reputable, objective people.
And so would millions and millions of others, I'm sure.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald Yes, this hateful indoctrination has to stop.

Fine. Well, it's your turn. Get the Muslim/Arab nations to stop teaching hatred towards Christians, Jews and Hindus, and then we can proceed to the next step.

I simply have to believe that the majority of Palestinians would want a peace plan that meets their aspirations for an independent homeland and offers fair, even generous, compensation for any losses associated with their displacement. I also have to believe, in tandem, that if the vast majority of Palestinians want such a fair peace badly enough, their leaders will go for it.

About three years ago, before the current uprising, the Palestinians had a standard of living higher than the average Arab in all of the Arab nations. The Palestinians were also offered a great peace deal, including their own state.

They turned it down and started killing Jews. Apparantly, the Palestinians would prefer killing Jews rather than living in peace and prosperity.

Note that my understanding is that we're talking about a genuine peace, with the whole world in sincere agreement on it.

If you can the brutal dictatorships and incompetent regimes of the whole would to agree on anything, it will be the first time in history. How about getting the brutal dictatorships to stop killing their own people?

A "genuine peace" can only come when the Arab/Muslim nations love their children more than they love killing Jews.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Donald
Anyway, at the very least, the UN is the symbol for the planet's future, for "the host of nations" at peace, and it must be involved, if only for humanitarian and symbolic reasons. Of course the peace effort will be given its real power by the universal agreement sincerely made by the contending sides and sincerely guaranteed by all of the powerful nations of the earth.


I'm sorry Donald, but excuse me while I vomit profusely. The UN as our future, God Forbid!!!!

As if the same organization that allows dictators to critisize democracies, accuse others of human rights abuses, turns a blind eye to anti-semetism while overwhelmingly passes resolutions against the only country in the mideast that allows gays, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Women to have equal rights. The same organization that equates zionism with racism, allows Syria to head an anti-terrorism panel, whcih allows Iran to carry on nuclear proliferation while telling Israel to disarm, etc. etc.

Please study the UN first. I'd kill myself before I'd let the UN decide my future.

[Donald]

Originally posted by CanDo
Donald, as a test for your peace plan, how about step one being the stopping of the teaching of hatred towards Christians, Jews and Hindus in Arab/Muslim schools and mosques. That type of teaching doesn't just effect Israel and the Palestinians.

Or, perhaps there can be a test run of your peace plan in the Congo or Lebanon or Iraq.

Another way to test your peace plan would be to implement a lesser version in Los Angeles, U.S., where there is a high rate of crime, aka domestic terrorism.

There will be peace when the Arab/Muslim world finds it in their interests to stop inciting hatred towards all other religions, cultures, races and nationalities.

CANDO:

I do not think that a peace plan that requires tests along the way would (or will) ever make it to the end. I personally think only a peace plan that is laid out in detail such that it can appeal directly to the millions over there who long for a peaceful life will work. Having said that . . .


Anyone who preaches hatred towards another is himself hateful.

Certainly there are lots of other places in the world that need help, but my primary interest is in the Middle East peace process, since that conflict constitutes a serious danger to the whole world, including my grandchildren. (Anglos all, living safely in Canada, at the moment but, like us all, seriously endangered by the Middle East conflict.)

If you want to reduce violence and crime in Los Angeles or elsewhere in your great country, then consider working for American gun control laws similar to those in effect in Canada and Britain. They work. Check the statistics.

I think there will only be peace when a just settlement of all the issues is agreed upon by the parties involved, with the backing of all the nations behind it. When this happens it will be difficult for the preaching of hatred to continue on a large scale.

[minusthejihad]

Originally posted by Donald

If you want to reduce violence and crime in Los Angeles or elsewhere in your great country, then consider working for American gun control laws similar to those in effect in Canada and Britain. They work. Check the statistics.


Sorry. I don't agree with that as well.

And normally, when a person in here makes a statement with statistics, its their duty to present those statistics, not for them to present a "fact" and the rest of us have to disprove it.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald
CANDO:

I think there will only be peace when a just settlement of all the issues is agreed upon by the parties involved, with the backing of all the nations behind it. When this happens it will be difficult for the preaching of hatred to continue on a large scale.

OK. The Arab nations attacked Israel five times. For a just settlement, the Arab nations would have to compensate Israel for the losses and also pay punitive damages to Israel.

The Arab/Muslim nations forced 800,000 Jews to flee the Arab/Muslim countries, leaving all they had behind. The Jewish families would have to be compensated for their losses.

And while you are collecting from the Arabs/Muslim, also remember the 1.5 million Armenian Christian families that were slaughtered by Muslims. The Muslim nations won't even admit to this most vile genocide. See how much you can get the Muslim nations to pay to compensate the Armenians.

You live in a dream world. You are sincere, I think, but you don't recognize that there are evil men in this world, with evil intentions, who despise peace, and hate others.

Your "if only everyone would love each other and get along" approach to peace is pleasant to hear, but tiresome and an old, failed aspiration.

[Donald]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
I'm sorry Donald, but excuse me while I vomit profusely. The UN as our future, God Forbid!!!!

As if the same organization that allows dictators to critisize democracies, accuse others of human rights abuses, turns a blind eye to anti-semetism while overwhelmingly passes resolutions against the only country in the mideast that allows gays, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Women to have equal rights. The same organization that equates zionism with racism, allows Syria to head an anti-terrorism panel, whcih allows Iran to carry on nuclear proliferation while telling Israel to disarm, etc. etc.

Please study the UN first. I'd kill myself before I'd let the UN decide my future.

minusthejihad:

I take it you don't like the UN.

I believe what I said about its vital role in the Cuban Missile Crises is true. If it had not done the good things it did back then, we might all very well be radioactive dust. Aside from that, the United Nations is hosted by the United States. The United States and most of countries of the world belong to it. Most of them believe in it. I do also, because I believe, for all its faults, that it is the embryonic essence of a united and peaceful Earth that will exist sometime in the future and that it can and will do much along the way to get us there.

But all this talk about the UN is a bit of a red herring, for present purposes. If most Israelis refused to accept UN participation in the peace process, then the peace efforts could proceed without it. It's getting the peace in place that matters, is it not?

[minusthejihad]

No, because this peace word you through around is as elusive as your red herring.

I don't believe in peace, because I believe in good AND evil and I understand human nature and that we are incompatible to live in the Utopia you dream of. I also don't believe in the moral equivalence you are trying to attach to both parties involved in the peace process. It frankly stinks of Kumbaya rhetoric and I live in the real world with results on the ground. The Israelis have tried to live, thats it. Until they are permitted to do that, i don't want to hear of "Yet another peace process".

A true peace process would be to jail Arafat "The Father of Modern Terrorism" and his cronies Rantisi, Yassin, etc. and unbrainwashing the Palestinian children from the Cult of Death.

I am after all not for world peace but for world calm.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald:
I simply have to believe that the majority of Palestinians would want a peace plan that meets their aspirations for an independent homeland and offers fair, even generous, compensation for any losses associated with their displacement. I also have to believe, in tandem, that if the vast majority of Palestinians want such a fair peace badly enough, their leaders will go for it.

You didn't respond to this before so I am repeating my response. Perhaps your blind faith in the charity and brotherhood in all others' hearts is a little misguided.

About three years ago, before the current uprising, the Palestinians had a standard of living higher than the average Arab in all of the Arab nations. The Palestinians were also offered a great peace deal, including their own state.

They turned it down and started killing Jews. Apparently, the Palestinians would prefer killing Jews rather than living in peace and prosperity.

[Donald]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
. I don't agree with that as well.

And normally, when a person in here makes a statement with statistics, its their duty to present those statistics, not for them to present a "fact" and the rest of us have to disprove it.

Sorry minusthejihad . I should have remembered that rule. Anyway, I managed to find the desired statistics. Here they are:

U.S. Department of Justice ¡P Office of Justice Programs
Bureau of Justice Statistics
Summary findings -- 2002
Victimization
„h According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2002, 353,880 victims of serious violent crimes (rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault) stated that they faced an offender with a firearm.
„h Victimizations involving a firearm represented 7% of the 5.3 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault.
„h The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 63% of the 15,980 murders in 2001 were committed with firearms.

From Britains Home Office Report on Crime in Britain:

The total number of firearm offences in England and Wales in 2002-03 (excluding those involving air weapons) was around 10,250 or three per cent higher than in 2001-02. A firearm offence is any offence in which a firearm was 'used', whether fired, used as a blunt instrument or in a threat. Two thirds of these offences (6950) involved the firearm being used as a 'threat', but in around 17% (1750) the firearm was fired at a person and an injury resulted. Three quarters of these cases the injury was slight, but in one quarter it was more serious, including eighty incidents last year in which the injury proved fatal (down from the 95 recorded in 2001-02). Nearly two thirds of the firearms offences (excluding air weapons) occur in just three metropolitan forces - the Metropolitan Police, Greater Manchester and West Midlands.


My note:

Looking at homicides only:


There were .63 x 15,980 = 10067 murders with firearms in the U.S. in 2002

There were 80 murders with firearms in Britain in 2002-2003


The population of the U.S. is about 288,368,698

The population of Britain is about 58, 800,000

288, 368, 000/ 58,800,000 = 4.9

So, if the gun-related murders in the us occured at the same rate as those in Britain, there would have been 4.9 x 80 = 392 gun homicides in the United States last year.

If a gun control system as effective as that in Britain existed in the U.S., assuming the American people's disposition to violence is about the same, then 10067 - 392 = 9675 lives might have been saved in that year.

[Donald]

Originally posted by CanDo
You didn't respond to this before so I am repeating my response. Perhaps your blind faith in the charity and brotherhood in all others' hearts is a little misguided.

About three years ago, before the current uprising, the Palestinians had a standard of living higher than the average Arab in all of the Arab nations. The Palestinians were also offered a great peace deal, including their own state.

They turned it down and started killing Jews. Apparently, the Palestinians would prefer killing Jews rather than living in peace and prosperity.

CANDO:

I do not believe blindly in the charity and brotherhood in all other's hearts. I'm a retired military person who served with the U.S. Airforce during the Vietnam war. I'm not all that charitable myself and I know there's lots worse than me. But that is the obstacle that has to be overcome.

What happened or failed to happen in the past often provides the lesson for the future. And it is the future that matters now, if we're to bring peace to the region. Try and try, until it happens. Will it never happen? What alternative is there? (See my other post.)

[Donald]

Response to CANDO post. His in quotes.

"The Arab nations attacked Israel five times. For a just settlement, the Arab nations would have to compensate Israel for the losses and also pay punitive damages to Israel."

Well, if this were to be considered a serious issue in the peace negotiations, then it should be brought to the table and negotiated. However, I don't think it is an issue since it's quite impractical. I think most Israelis would forgo it gladly, in exchange for secure borders and a genuine peace.

"The Arab/Muslim nations forced 800,000 Jews to flee the Arab/Muslim countries, leaving all they had behind. The Jewish families would have to be compensated for their losses."

I don't know anything at all about this. Is it generally considered part of the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Is Israel asking for compensation for these claims as part of a peace settlement?

"And while you are collecting from the Arabs/Muslim, also remember the 1.5 million Armenian Christian families that were slaughtered by Muslims. The Muslim nations won't even admit to this most vile genocide. See how much you can get the Muslim nations to pay to compensate the Armenians."

I've heard about this atrocity, but I don't quite see what it has to do with our present discussion.

"You live in a dream world. You are sincere, I think, but you don't recognize that there are evil men in this world, with evil intentions, who despise peace, and hate others."

You're quite wrong about me. I do realize such people exist. But I live, not in a dream world as you say, but in the hope that such people can be overcome and that the peoples of the Middle East can obtain peace soon, before a great calamity occurs.

Your "if only everyone would love each other and get along" approach to peace is pleasant to hear, but tiresome and an old, failed aspiration. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, the hope for peace and brotherhood is a tired old aspiration, but you cannot logically say it has failed until we run out of time. However, we may well run out of time sooner than we think, if warring peoples stop trying to make peace with each other.

When I talk about compensation, I would think that all families on both sides would be compensated both for the loss of property and the loss of lives.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald
CANDO:

I do believe blindly in the charity and brotherhood in all other's hearts.

How much charity and brotherhood is in someone's heart, who enjoys killing children? I guess that you are admitting here that even the worst, most evil butcher and child molester has a good heart!? What is the good of a "good" heart if one uses it for evil purposes?

Not letting reality influence your reasoning is a difficult way for most people to survive against those how would do them harm. You are lucky that you aren't having to make life and death decisions, as most Israelis have to do each day.

What happened or failed to happen in the past often provides the lesson for the future. And it is the future that matters now, if we're to bring peace to the region. Try and try, until it happens. Will it never happen? What alternative is there? post.)

You are suggesting that we should not learn from our mistakes of the past, and just keep repeating them. That's funny. That is also the way the rest of the world, outside of Israel, also thinks.

A peace that compromises Israel's security, will end up with more dead Jewish families.

The alternative is to have the weak kneed EU and UN stop pouring hundreds of millions of dollars down the sewer called the Palestinian territories. The alternative is to cut off all funding to the PLO until they come honestly to the peace table. The alternative is to allow Israel to bring justice to ALL of the leaders of the terrorist groups, including Arafat and his hencemen.

There can never be peace in the Middle East until the terrorist groups, and those that fund and support them are destroyed.

You can't have peace with those who's only goal is your destruction.

[Donald]

CanDo: Your comments are in quotes. My replies are under each one.

"How much charity and brotherhood is in someone's heart, who enjoys killing children? I guess that you are admitting here that even the worst, most evil butcher and child molester has a good heart!? What is the good of a "good" heart if one uses it for evil purposes?"

Sorry, but there has been a miscommunication. I meant to type "I do not believe ..." but left out the "not". I edited the post right away, but you were already replying to me by then.

"Not letting reality influence your reasoning is a difficult way for most people to survive against those how would do them harm. You are lucky that you aren't having to make life and death decisions, as most Israelis have to do each day."

Again, I am aware that there are enough evil and hate-filled people to go around.

"You are suggesting that we should not learn from our mistakes of the past, and just keep repeating them. That's funny. That is also the way the rest of the world, outside of Israel, also thinks. "

I'm really not suggesting that at all. I'm suggesting only that there is no real alternative to peace and that it must be delivered in such a way that the outrages of the past will not be repeated.

"A peace that compromises Israel's security, will end up with more dead Jewish families. "

No, I certainly would not advocate a peace that compromises Jewish security and results in more dead Jewish familes. I advocate a peace that assures Jewish security and results in no more dead Jewish families.

"The alternative is to have the weak kneed EU and UN stop pouring hundreds of millions of dollars down the sewer called the Palestinian territories. The alternative is to cut off all funding to the PLO until they come honestly to the peace table. The alternative is to allow Israel to bring justice to ALL of the leaders of the terrorist groups, including Arafat and his hencemen."

No, blood for blood is what you presently have. The only answer is a viable peace agreement that will end all sectarian violence in the region.

"There can never be peace in the Middle East until the terrorist groups, and those that fund and support them are destroyed."

I think that you have arrived at the correct formula for unending violence.

"You can't have peace with those who's only goal is your
destruction."

You can, if you change their goal. For those who desire peace and prosperity for all, the question to be debated is how to do it.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald
CanDo: I'm suggesting only that there is no real alternative to peace and that it must be delivered in such a way that the outrages of the past will not be repeated.

Yes there is an alternative to peace. If you can't possibly have a "real" peace, where your families are truly safe, then you must find some way to keep your enemy from killing you.

Israel is facing an enemy, who has made it very clear that he doesn't want peace, he only wants to destroy Israel. The Palestinianian leadership has also made it clear that the only peace that they will accept is one that results in the destruction of Israel.

You are not interested in a real peace. You are only interested in one that looks good on paper, no matter who it hurts.

I advocate a peace that assures Jewish security and results in no more dead Jewish families.

No you don't. You have never suggested a peaceful solution that was even remotely possible. I don't know if this is intentional on your part, and if you are really suggesting impossible solutions because you are an enemy of peace, or if you just lack understanding.

[Donald]

Yes there is an alternative to peace. If you can't possibly have a "real" peace, where your families are truly safe, then you must find some way to keep your enemy from killing you.

The difference between us is that I hope and believe, with most others, that a "real" peace is possible and that it will come someday. You appear to have given up on that prospect

Israel is facing an enemy, who has made it very clear that he doesn't want peace, he only wants to destroy Israel. The Palestinianian leadership has also made it clear that the only peace that they will accept is one that results in the destruction of Israel.

If the peace is not possible today--not saying it isn't--do you have any hope for achieving it in the future?

You are not interested in a real peace. You are only interested in one that looks good on paper, no matter who it hurts.

On what basis do you attribute these deleterious thoughts to me. What have I said that has made you suddenly attack me?

In my previous post I said that I advocated a peace that assures Jewish security and results in no more dead Jewish families.

You responded:

No you don't. You have never suggested a peaceful solution that was even remotely possible. I don't know if this is intentional on your part, and if you are really suggesting impossible solutions because you are an enemy of peace, or if you just lack understanding.

I do so advocate such a peace and I said so in that sentence, as well as many times in other places. When I entered this thread in order to say something hopeful about secure borders, was I not acting as an advocate for peace, even if indirectly?

I have never suggested impossible solutions, I have only talked for a little while about secure borders and peace. The last part of your quote is a personal attack on me. Shame on you. I'm going to tell your mother.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by Donald
The difference between us is that I hope and believe, with most others, that a "real" peace is possible and that it will come someday. You appear to have given up on that prospect

Wrong. You believe that a "real" peace is possible with terrorists. I believe that the only way for a "real" peace to occur is if terrorist organizations are destroyed, and the Palestinian people get human beings for leaders.

If the peace is not possible today--not saying it isn't--do you have any hope for achieving it in the future?

Not as long as Arabs/Muslims continue indoctrinating their children with hatred towards Christians, Jews and Hindus in their schools. Until the cowardly leaders of the world condemn the hateful racist policies of Arab leaders, peace is not possible. In fact, the real concern isn't peace, it is survival.

On what basis do you attribute these deleterious thoughts to me. What have I said that has made you suddenly attack me?

I don't attack you, I attack your views. For instance, in an earlier post you said: "I also have to believe, in tandem, that if the vast majority of Palestinians want such a fair peace badly enough, their leaders will go for it."

I have to wonder whether you are really this naive, or you are denying that the Palestinian leadership has been indocrinating their people with hatred towards Jews for decades.

The criminals who rule the Palestinians control their news and their schools and constantly blame all of the problems on Jews. It's no wonder that most Palestinians support suicide bombers.

Your statement attempts to paint the Palestinians situation similar to what you would see in the US, or any other civilized country.

As long as you refuse to hold the Palestinian leadership accountable for their murderous, criminal and evil actions, and realize that the only route to peace is the removal of evil Palestinian leaders, then I've got to wonder about your motivations.

There are many who pose as supporters for Israel, and pose as supporters for peace, that make proposals that are harmful to Israel and harmful to true peace.

I'm sorry If I seems like I am attacking you personally, I mean to attack your ideas. I will try better next time.

Regards.......

[Donald]

Originally posted by minusthejihad
I'm sorry Donald, but excuse me while I vomit profusely. The UN as our future, God Forbid!!!!

As if the same organization that allows dictators to critisize democracies, accuse others of human rights abuses, turns a blind eye to anti-semetism while overwhelmingly passes resolutions against the only country in the mideast that allows gays, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Women to have equal rights. The same organization that equates zionism with racism, allows Syria to head an anti-terrorism panel, whcih allows Iran to carry on nuclear proliferation while telling Israel to disarm, etc. etc.

Please study the UN first. I'd kill myself before I'd let the UN decide my future.

This is an update. Since the above post was made, Libya has agree to renounce WMD and has undertaken to agree to inspection and monitoring under the auspices of the UN.

"How quickly things change and how little the future will resemble the past. That you can bet on. "--Donald.

The UN will be the vehicle for eliminating WMDs from Libya and may perform the same function with other Middle Eastern countries threatening Israel, perhaps even Syria and Iran. These things would not likely happen if the UN were not available as an instrument for saving face. The UN likely saved the world from nuclear war in the fifties. It may be doing it again.

[minusthejihad]

Huh?

[CanDo]

The UN will be the vehicle for eliminating WMDs from Libya and may perform the same function with other Middle Eastern countries threatening Israel, perhaps even Syria and Iran. These things would not likely happen if the UN were not available as an instrument for saving face.

If the UN is doing something, they will screw it up, as normal. I would not trust anything that comes out of the UN.

If the Arab dictatorships, or any other tyrants yell, the UN jumps.

You live in a fantasy world.

[Donald]

Originally posted by CanDo
If the UN is doing something, they will screw it up, as normal. I would not trust anything that comes out of the UN.

If the Arab dictatorships, or any other tyrants yell, the UN jumps.

You live in a fantasy world.

Let me get this straight. Libya agrees to dispose of its weapons of mass destruction, including its nuclear program, under the auspices of a UN inspection team that will operate continuously and will be composed of the best and most diligent experts from all over the world, including, for sure, a large contingent from the US. There is, moreover, the prospect (however vague at the moment) that other Middle Eastern countries, including Syria and Iran may eventually do the same. But your disheartening response to this momentous, fantastic new hope is simply to say that completely negative thing you said. Then you end with a putdown of me. You say that I live in a fantasy world. You'd better have your vision checked.

[minusthejihad]

I'm sorry, but there are far more examples of Muslim/Arab nations saying one thing and/or promoting peace and doing another than the other way around.

I think the problem here Donald is that you are holding those nations accountable to the West's standards, all the while failing to remember that the standards accepted there are far lower, at least in terms of telling the truth, religious tolerance, violence, education, etc.

[MGB8]

Donald,

The UN belongs to the Arabs and OPEC, who control it via the Muslim block of Arab and African and some Asian nations, not to mention oil influence that has purchased much of Europe and South America.

You are asking the Wolves to guard the henhouse.

That's idiotic.

Libya "disarms" only to ease sanctions on itself from the US and Britain, and because, frankly, they are not threatened by anyone and aren't in a real position to fight the west.

The example of Iraq and Saddam Hussein, coupled with the money's running dry, hasn't had zero impact, either.

Israel can only rely on Israel for its future defense.

That means playing international politics while looking towards the future - alternative energy.

It also means amputating parts of the cancerous West Bank and the demographic bomb that exits there, while still exerting some check on the borders - as Sharon is manuevering Israel to do.

Finally, it means the continuation of M.A.D. with the ARABS - making sure that they understand that war on Israel will lead to the destruction of EVERY MAJOR MUSLIM HOLY CITE AND POPULATION CENTER - or at least as many as we can get too...with no way of the biggest targets - MECCA, MEDINA, RIDYA, DAMASCUS, CAIRO, BAGDHAD, TEHRAN...no way from them to escape.

ONLY STRENGTH and ARAB SELF-INTEREST will bring peace.

[Donald]

Originally posted by MGB8
Donald,

The UN belongs to the Arabs and OPEC, who control it via the Muslim block of Arab and African and some Asian nations, not to mention oil influence that has purchased much of Europe and South America.

You are asking the Wolves to guard the henhouse.

That's idiotic.

Libya "disarms" only to ease sanctions on itself from the US and Britain, and because, frankly, they are not threatened by anyone and aren't in a real position to fight the west.

The example of Iraq and Saddam Hussein, coupled with the money's running dry, hasn't had zero impact, either.

Israel can only rely on Israel for its future defense.

That means playing international politics while looking towards the future - alternative energy.

It also means amputating parts of the cancerous West Bank and the demographic bomb that exits there, while still exerting some check on the borders - as Sharon is manuevering Israel to do.

Finally, it means the continuation of M.A.D. with the ARABS - making sure that they understand that war on Israel will lead to the destruction of EVERY MAJOR MUSLIM HOLY CITE AND POPULATION CENTER - or at least as many as we can get too...with no way of the biggest targets - MECCA, MEDINA, RIDYA, DAMASCUS, CAIRO, BAGDHAD, TEHRAN...no way from them to escape.

ONLY STRENGTH and ARAB SELF-INTEREST will bring peace.

How horrible!

[CanDo]

Originally posted by MGB8
Finally, it means the continuation of M.A.D. with the ARABS - making sure that they understand that war on Israel will lead to the destruction of EVERY MAJOR MUSLIM HOLY CITE AND POPULATION CENTER - or at least as many as we can get too...with no way of the biggest targets - MECCA, MEDINA, RIDYA, DAMASCUS, CAIRO, BAGDHAD, TEHRAN...no way from them to escape.

ONLY STRENGTH and ARAB SELF-INTEREST will bring peace.

I am hoping that Israel is willing to destroy EVERY MAJOR MUSLIM HOLY CITE AND POPULATION CENTER, in the event of an attack against Israel, and I hope that the Arab nations really do understand what they have to lose.

[MGB8]

I am starting to believe that they do, given the attempts to declaw Israel.

It was a fairly brilliant strategic manuever for the Arabs and Jihadists to try to turn something from a direct conflict between Arabs/Islam and Israel into something smaller (which they fund and support and control), local terrorism - that Israel has less ability to strike back directly at the puppeteers.

However, the BUSH DOCTRINE has changed that quite a bit, and I think also that the Arabs see that they are getting very close to pushing Israel over certain lines - the strikes in Syria are an example of that.

That's why many think that the mideast is so "dangerous" now. It is - FOR THEM, because they can't order killings and get away with it as easily anymore. My heart goes out to them, really it does.


Originally posted by CanDo
I am hoping that Israel is willing to destroy EVERY MAJOR MUSLIM HOLY CITE AND POPULATION CENTER, in the event of an attack against Israel, and I hope that the Arab nations really do understand what they have to lose.

[CanDo]

Originally posted by MGB8
That's why many think that the mideast is so "dangerous" now. It is - FOR THEM, because they can't order killings and get away with it as easily anymore. My heart goes out to them, really it does.

Of particular note is the fact that the number one request of Hamas and their buddy and low-life butcher, Arafat, is that Israel stop the targeted killings.

When the terrosts ask you to stop doing something, that is when you should increase it.

I wish that the world would mind it's own business and let Israel take out ALL of the terrorist leaders, including Arafat.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by CanDo


I wish that the world would mind it's own business and let Israel take out ALL of the terrorist leaders, including Arafat.


The world is a big place and Israel is a little place. Islam holds most of the oil and carries a lot of weight in the world, enough to have Israel and USA branded as racist by the UN. They like to call others what they are.

I hope bush gets re-elected.

old reb

[CanDo]

Originally posted by old-reb
The world is a big place and Israel is a little place. Islam holds most of the oil and carries a lot of weight in the world, enough to have Israel and USA branded as racist by the UN. They like to call others what they are.

I hope bush gets re-elected.

old reb

One has to wonder why Iran HATES Jews so much. Of course, the demented leaders, of Iran, hate their own people also. It would be great if, somehow, the people of Iran would overthrow their criminally insane leaders.

Regarding Bush? It has been a long time since we have had a leader with ethics and vision, and the courage to do the right thing. Bush is a great leader!

I was kinda hoping that Bush would pick Rudolph Giuliani for VP for 2004. That would put Giuliani in great position to be President in 2008. I was a big fan of Rudolph Giuliani long before Sept 11, 2001, after Giuliani cleaned up New York City.

What do you think are Bush's chances for getting re-elected?

[old-reb]

Originally posted by CanDo
One has to wonder why Iran HATES Jews so much. Of course, the demented leaders, of Iran, hate their own people also. It would be great if, somehow, the people of Iran would overthrow their criminally insane leaders.

Regarding Bush? It has been a long time since we have had a leader with ethics and vision, and the courage to do the right thing. Bush is a great leader!

I was kinda hoping that Bush would pick Rudolph Giuliani for VP for 2004. That would put Giuliani in great position to be President in 2008. I was a big fan of Rudolph Giuliani long before Sept 11, 2001, after Giuliani cleaned up New York City.

What do you think are Bush's chances for getting re-elected?

Cando,

I think you know why Iranians hate Jews. Iran has almost no Jews so it can't because of the Jews in their lives but they are taught to hate jews so that is what they do. They hate you because you are still here after 1500 years of attempt to exterminate you. Iranains are racist because they are taught to be. But they will deny it to the heavens. They never look at the turth.

I don't have a clue about Bushes chances but he has my vote.

old reb

[mrsherwin]

i beleive we are all human and all motivated by a similar desire for happiness, we all know what feels good and what doesn,t . There are sick people , people who enjoy torturing others and they are the exception , we must learn to understand each other

[MGB8]

Happiness is a learned term.

The Pal Authority teaches its peopple that happines = martyrdom.

That's the problem.

If you were right, people wouldn't do bad things on massive scales. Genocides wouldn't happen. We'd all be happy to live and let live. And yet the history of man is the opposite.

Originally posted by mrsherwin
i beleive we are all human and all motivated by a similar desire for happiness, we all know what feels good and what doesn,t . There are sick people , people who enjoy torturing others and they are the exception , we must learn to understand each other

[Zoran]

Originally posted by MGB8
Happiness is a learned term.

The Pal Authority teaches its peopple that happines = martyrdom.

That's the problem.

If you were right, people wouldn't do bad things on massive scales. Genocides wouldn't happen. We'd all be happy to live and let live. And yet the history of man is the opposite.

As an ex-Muslim, most groups of people clearly do not understand the nature of Islam as a force of destabilization. This destabilization is directed at others, due to the total and complete failure of Islam as a political, economic, social, and religious ideal.

Separation from the Palestinians is the only course of action, as the real beneficiaries will be the Palestinian population. When realities finally set in, inasmuch the Palestininan political leadership is nothing more than a multi-decades old mafia draining the life-blood of their population. Vampires by any other names are still vampires.

Regards,
Zoran.

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by MGB8
Happiness is a learned term.

The Pal Authority teaches its peopple that happines = martyrdom.

That's the problem.

If you were right, people wouldn't do bad things on massive scales. Genocides wouldn't happen. We'd all be happy to live and let live. And yet the history of man is the opposite.
People have done awful animalistic and cruel actions on a mass scale , that is obvious but you must rmember that if you are i had been born into that position there is an almost inevitable certainityu that we would be doing the same. if you had been born a palestiian ( A fate worse than your greatest fears no doubt) you would probably hate israel too . I would expect you to disagree with me but i and many people believe that it is the case . we are human , we are influenced by our experiences but i do believe we all share a sense of what is right and what is not and the only way , and im sure history reflects this the only way israel can be free and prosperous is by searching for that understanding , violence and oppresion doesn,t work . In my country i ahve witnessed trouble in the North , now it is nowhere near as horrible as whats happening in israel but it has been that bad and now finally people just want to get on with their lives and prosper . i believe the state of Israel is an inherently good one. and i also believe that palestinian people are inherently good people and , mate if you don,t belive that forget it

[Mediocrates]

That's a lot of patronizing twaddle. I seriously doubt whether any of you - mental cases excepted, would promote your own children to go out and murder-suicide people for some political cause. I seriously doubt that if you found yourself in bad circumstances that "Kill Them All" would rise right to the top of your to-do list.

Nasty things happen to ordinary people every day. And the measure of a person's character is not the tally of their accomplishments but the quality of their fears. I'm sorry but something else is in play in Palestine, something inherently evil. Something profoundly broken.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
i beleive we are all human and all motivated by a similar desire for happiness, we all know what feels good and what doesn,t . There are sick people , people who enjoy torturing others and they are the exception , we must learn to understand each other I believe in people just like you!
But, what do you suggest we should do with bad people? murderers and terrorists? racist anti semetics and like? People who believe in war over peace?

I think all those who prefer war over peace are terrorist who must die. What do you think? I think that Israeli amry does just that in order to bring the peace closer.

Do you think we should surrender to every terrorist of murderer whim of desire? or fight them? If some one is agressive toward you, willing to kill you and your family, does he got more rights then you? Don't you got a right of self defence?

How do you suggest we fight terrorists? with flowers? begging them for mercy? asking them pretty please to stop? Or arresting or killing them first, using what ever we got?

How do you handle terrorists and murderus crimminals in your country? with sticks or carrots?

Me thinks sticks is the answer... so think most of my brotherens and friends in this forum. Why should Israel be any different?

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
That's a lot of patronizing twaddle. I seriously doubt whether any of you - mental cases excepted, would promote your own children to go out and murder-suicide people for some political cause. I seriously doubt that if you found yourself in bad circumstances that "Kill Them All" would rise right to the top of your to-do list.

Nasty things happen to ordinary people every day. And the measure of a person's character is not the tally of their accomplishments but the quality of their fears. I'm sorry but something else is in play in Palestine, something inherently evil. Something profoundly broken.


U obviously belive thta everyone in palestine is a suicide bomber and if you do , you are mistaken

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
U obviously belive thta everyone in palestine is a suicide bomber and if you do , you are mistaken

There are two kinds of Arabs. Those who used to be suicide bombers and those who will be suicide bombers.

But I guess you know better, eh... ? How's that?

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
I believe in people just like you!
But, what do you suggest we should do with bad people? murderers and terrorists? racist anti semetics and like? People who believe in war over peace?

I think all those who prefer war over peace are terrorist who must die. What do you think? I think that Israeli amry does just that in order to bring the peace closer.

Do you think we should surrender to every terrorist of murderer whim of desire? or fight them? If some one is agressive toward you, willing to kill you and your family, does he got more rights then you? Don't you got a right of self defence?

How do you suggest we fight terrorists? with flowers? begging them for mercy? asking them pretty please to stop? Or arresting or killing them first, using what ever we got?

How do you handle terrorists and murderus crimminals in your country? with sticks or carrots?

Me thinks sticks is the answer... so think most of my brotherens and friends in this forum. Why should Israel be any different?

You fight terrorism on two fronts , you use intelligence to desist the prominent iniators of terrororist groups you bring them to justice , not mass oppression u don,t use a sledge hammer to remove a thorn. Secondly you genuinely have to throw ouit pre concievd ideology and try and understand why otherwise good people support such heinous atrocities and reach out and assure these people that you have no desires to hurt them unprovokedly , its something that will undoubtley be poorly recieved from the hard right but look how well there policy is

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
There are two kinds of Arabs. Those who used to be suicide bombers and those who will be suicide bombers.

But I guess you know better, eh... ? How's that?


Someday you will see the stupidity of that statement , thats a horrible thing to say about a people and there religon , had something as viciously innaccuraet and nasty spoke about jews there is a word for it , u are no better than people who have the same xenophobic and blatantly mis informed about judaism
I hope you really don,t believe that , i hope its a rant because it doesnt say too much about you if you do

[Canajew]

And if I were born in North Korea I may very well have been a "dear leader" worshiping automaton. All that means is that genetics (i.e. race) does not impact on a person as much as environment. If the Palestinians were born Jewish they (well, some of them, lets not fall into the trap where generalizations are assumed to apply to everyone - They are generalizations and that's fine, but there is variation among populations to be sure) would pay more attention to study and ethics than if they were born Palestinian.

It has nothing to do with them as people as such but rather the culture in which they live (wallow). Their culture is profoundly broken, far worse than what you would ascrbie to whichever group in northern Ireland you didn't support. And as a result children are indictrinated from birth that the highest achievable goal for them and their people is not to be a doctro or a humanitarian worker or an artist but a suicide bomber - a 'martyr' for the cause. And the cause is, of course, the liquidation of the Zionist entity. Thios has always been the goal, and this is what's taught to children - the 'liberation' of Israel from the zionists. And so you get kids growing up who can't wait to kill their first Jew.

And so while people as blank slates may indeed be very good people (or at least capable of it) so was Hitler at some point. that doesn't mean that we should have sat down with him in 1944 and tried to understand why he had so much hate inside. it doesn't work that way.

Going forward it is important to de-Arafatize the PAelstinians and their future generations just as the Germans and Japanese were doprogrammed. But as for those who are already programmed, that's entirely different.

Good in thoery or 'inherently good' as you phrase it is of little if any value in figuring out what to actually DO about everything.


Originally posted by mrsherwin
People have done awful animalistic and cruel actions on a mass scale , that is obvious but you must rmember that if you are i had been born into that position there is an almost inevitable certainityu that we would be doing the same. if you had been born a palestiian ( A fate worse than your greatest fears no doubt) you would probably hate israel too . I would expect you to disagree with me but i and many people believe that it is the case . we are human , we are influenced by our experiences but i do believe we all share a sense of what is right and what is not and the only way , and im sure history reflects this the only way israel can be free and prosperous is by searching for that understanding , violence and oppresion doesn,t work . In my country i ahve witnessed trouble in the North , now it is nowhere near as horrible as whats happening in israel but it has been that bad and now finally people just want to get on with their lives and prosper . i believe the state of Israel is an inherently good one. and i also believe that palestinian people are inherently good people and , mate if you don,t belive that forget it

[Canajew]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
You fight terrorism on two fronts , you use intelligence to desist the prominent iniators of terrororist groups you bring them to justice , not mass oppression u don,t use a sledge hammer to remove a thorn. Secondly you genuinely have to throw ouit pre concievd ideology and try and understand why otherwise good people support such heinous atrocities and reach out and assure these people that you have no desires to hurt them unprovokedly , its something that will undoubtley be poorly recieved from the hard right but look how well there policy is

you are incorrect, and you obviously do not know about the sophistication, the extensive network that is a terrorist operation. Arresting the actual perpitrators is fine - won't do much except take the most easily replacable cog off the street for a bit. What is necessary is that their MEANS to commit such attrocities is circumscribed, and the military has an extremely valuable role to play in curtailing weaspons flows, disrupting communications, targeting leaders and dispatchers and recruiters. Sure they use intelligence but without the military action cannot effectively be taken.

And one cannot explain anything to the Palestinians. No matter what Israel does or what its motives are, the message that the PAlestinians get is from their leaders and media, which spews propaganda and lies (like Israel is poisoning wells, the Jenin Jenin work of documentary fiction, and the rest). This is why the fact that Israel PRESENTLY treats the Palestinians far more civilly than any other nation has or would treat those who support and send ouyt such terrorists. That is lost on them, and because of their propaganda, lost on the rest of the wrold as well.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
You fight terrorism on two fronts , you use intelligence to desist the prominent iniators of terrororist groups you bring them to justice We so often do it that you never hear about it in your news... we do it all the time...

, not mass oppression u don,t use a sledge hammer to remove a thorn. Think of terrorist not as individuals but as gangs, and in some places (like Gaza), a highly armed small army called "malitia". To successfuly destroy a melitia you often need large mass operations. Since civilians sometimes break the carfews made for their own protection, these civilians get caught in the cross fire between the army and the millitias and civilians sometimes get killed.

large forces do the job with less civilians cassulties then small units.

Targeted killing of terrorist leader is the only alternative that can stop the terrorist while not engaging with his small army, which will cause high death toll since these army of terrorist hides among women and children, and partly composed of children as well...

Pay attention that most of the targeted killings of terrorist happen in Gaza, since in Gaza the terrorist live in large densely populated cities and they are very good armed.

Secondly you genuinely have to throw ouit pre concievd ideology and try and understand why otherwise good people support such heinous atrocities and reach out and assure these people that you have no desires to hurt them unprovokedly , its something that will undoubtley be poorly recieved from the hard right but look how well there policy is Can you reach out and explain your self to Bin ladden? Hammas and Islamic Jihad and PLO are very kin in their ideology to Bin Laden Al-Quida and his allied organizations.

Arab are consumed with hate which resembles that of the crusaders and the natizs. Nothing we can do will convince them we are harmless. Our very existance as Jews and Westerners offences Arab terrorists, and most Arabs world wide. Terrorism is a form of hate crime. Hate crimes cannot be defendent or reasoned with.

We have attepted to "reach out" and faild. Now we fight!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
U obviously belive thta everyone in palestine is a suicide bomber and if you do , you are mistaken



Here is what I believe. I believe that with enough money, propaganda and force you can get 5% of your population crazy enough to do anything you want and if you do it long enough it will BECOME a cause. That's all you need - 1 out of 20. And it takes perhaps ten times that many people to support it, organize, fund it, foster it. Even in a conventional infantry battle only about 10% of anyone hits anything so if you can get that rabid 5% whipped up into a frenzy then yeah - those people are ALL suicide bombers. And then when their families and friends who are closest to supporting them anyway get heaped praise and accolades then that too gets coopted and turned into something other people want to emulate. And so on. But it's pathological in either case. It's like being an anti-parent. Tanks are rolling down the street and while most people are pushing their kids down under the kitchen table, a few are chasing them outside to go throw rocks and gasoline bombs.

And make no mistake about it - apparently your unending misery and suicidal suffering ends about age 33 or so in Palestine because there are no bombers older than that. I suppose they get promoted to management roles in the terrorist industry and get to recruit more young people.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
Someday you will see the stupidity of that statement , thats a horrible thing to say about a people and there religon , had something as viciously innaccuraet and nasty spoke about jews there is a word for it , u are no better than people who have the same xenophobic and blatantly mis informed about judaism
I hope you really don,t believe that , i hope its a rant because it doesnt say too much about you if you do

Are you saying Jews often strap bombs to themselves in Iraland and mass murder Irish children? or break into homes and murder Irish Children in their beds, like Arabs do?

Are Arabs like Jews, or not?

When we fought the brits, like you did, only better. We never murdered civilians. Not a single bomb went off in a pub in England. Not a single church was attacked.

We did, however blowne up bridges, railways, warplanes on the grounds by the dozens, ships... shot british soldies in our streets, break into thier head quarters to collects arms from their armory... as if we owned their place... Never have we hurt british civilians. So Jews aren't like the Irishmen either, eh?

Jews are Jews, don't compare us to anybody else, we morraly surpass anything you can think ever imagion.

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Are you saying Jews often strap bombs to themselves in Iraland and mass murder Irish children? or break into homes and murder Irish Children in their beds, like Arabs do?

Are Arabs like Jews, or not?

When we fought the brits, like you did, only better. We never murdered civilians. Not a single bomb went off in a pub in England. Not a single church was attacked.

We did, however blowne up bridges, railways, warplanes on the grounds by the dozens, ships... shot british soldies in our streets, break into thier head quarters to collects arms from their armory... as if we owned their place... Never have we hurt british civilians. So Jews aren't like the Irishmen either, eh?

Jews are Jews, don't compare us to anybody else, we morraly surpass anything you can think ever imagion.




Yes Gilgamesh you are the chosen one , I am of Jewish descendency it might noy go with you but i am also an Irish man , like many other prominent irish jews and i don, t belive all arabs are bad , so don, t label me in with your view on your place amongst your fellow man , if you think you are superior fair play to you i hope you enjoy your life of superiority and empowerment because its a deluded one , but keep convinving yourself its true and keep trying to convince others , for only then do you reveal a true reflection on who you really are
You make me laugh

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
Yes Gilgamesh you are the chosen one
Thank you!

but i am also an Irish man Nobody's perfect... you make good beer though... (and you have quite few great writers... so you could have been born much worse... )

, like many other prominent irish jews and i don, t belive all arabs are bad You are right! There are Druz Arabs and Badawin Arabs and Christian Arabs who fight with us... and there are dead Arabs... who are perfect peace loving people. An example for all other Arabs to follow ASAP...

but keep convinving yourself its true and keep trying to convince others , for only then do you reveal a true reflection on who you really are You make me laugh As far as I remmeber, you are in our forum, not vice versa... I not trying to convince you or any body else... you can always move to some other forum... there are planty of those in the wide world web.

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh

Thank you!

[/b] Nobody's perfect... you make good beer though... (and you have quite few great writers... so you could have been born much worse... )

[/b] You are right! There are Druz Arabs and Badawin Arabs and Christian Arabs who fight with us... and there are dead Arabs... who are perfect peace loving people. An example for all other Arabs to follow ASAP...

As far as I remmeber, you are in our forum, not vice versa... I not trying to convince you or any body else... you can always move to some other forum... there are planty of those in the wide world web. [/B]

i didn,t realise it was your forum , i thought it was a place for people to express their views on israel and stimulate debate that may inform some and help others to make their own opinions and converse with others , i thought it was a "forum" for expression and consideration , so i am sorry i was misunderstood , enjoy your board

[Ahava]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
i didn,t realise it was your forum , i thought it was a place for people to express their views on israel and stimulate debate that may inform some and help others to make their own opinions and converse with others , i thought it was a "forum" for expression and consideration , so i am sorry i was misunderstood , enjoy your board

:rolleyes:
Are you angry now?
Stay on board, sure. :rolleyes:
Let's have another bear/beer. :D

[MGB8]

I don't believe that people are essentially good or bad. But I'm more a Hobbesian than a Rouseau-ian - while you seem to be the later.

Did you know that in trible times, pre "civilization" - rates of violence and rape seem to have been much higher than in modern times?

People are essentially self-interested. However, our ability to abstract and think into the future, as well as focus on the past (as opposed to just live in the present), complicates this.

The Pal Arabs are just people, and mostly they are victims of their leadership and unwillingness to do anything about it. They are pawns in the games of richer and more powerful arabs.

The bottom line, however, is that as long as their pride has a large component based on "defeating" Israel, nothing positive is going to happen. As long as they brainwash their children into hate (and I agree, where I a Pal Arab I too probably would have been brainwashed - hence the need to open Arab societies...), there will be no peace.

If they want peace, all they have to do is stop trying to blow people up and shooting rockets, etc.

But they don't want peace. They don't even want a state. They want specific LAND. Just because they are willing to kill and die for it, doesn't mean anything. Why is Israel's willingness to kill and die for it - particularly considering that the reasons for wanting this land is mostly (not completely) strategic depth to protect its people, as well as prevention of the creation of a terrorist state a stone's throw from major population centers...

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by MGB8
I don't believe that people are essentially good or bad. But I'm more a Hobbesian than a Rouseau-ian - while you seem to be the later.

Did you know that in trible times, pre "civilization" - rates of violence and rape seem to have been much higher than in modern times?

People are essentially self-interested. However, our ability to abstract and think into the future, as well as focus on the past (as opposed to just live in the present), complicates this.
The bible says the same: Teva ha'adam ra mene'u'rav.

men's nature is evil since youth.

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by MGB8
But they don't want peace. They don't even want a state. They want specific LAND.


Two of my kids do that. They don't give a damn for what they have. They want what the other has. I think the PA does this - they genuinely don't care if they live in festering squalor for a thousand years. They just want Israel.

[Donald]

But they don't want peace. They don't even want a state. They want specific LAND. Just because they are willing to kill and die for it, doesn't mean anything. Why is Israel's willingness to kill and die for it - particularly considering that the reasons for wanting this land is mostly (not completely) strategic depth to protect its people, as well as prevention of the creation of a terrorist state a stone's throw from major population centers...

Okay, here's a hypothetical question for you MBB8. If you could have a true peace within the 1947 borders. No more deaths on either side. Trade, good relations, reparations for damage and deaths on both sides, and all the rest of it. Would you accept that?

[Canajew]

Originally posted by Donald
Okay, here's a hypothetical question for you MBB8. If you could have a true peace within the 1947 borders. No more deaths on either side. Trade, good relations, reparations for damage and deaths on both sides, and all the rest of it. Would you accept that?

and let me ask you something. If we could make it so that the Israelis and Palestinians could live in parallel universes so that each has the entire amount of land they desire, would you accept that? This is about as likely as your proposal.

You ignore the fact, of course that one of the reasons WHY the Arabs attacked Israel so many times was because of its vulnerability. Vulnerable borders does not allow for the facilitation of real peace, rather they creat an unstoppable incentive for the extremists and the dictators to act out their aggression.

If we could all live in a magical mystery universe where the Arabs suddeently begin acting like a normal civilized society full of normal, civilized people then fine, this seems good. But of course they will not act like that, they have no history, no institutions, no civl society. And so giving them land on Israel's doorstep and steps away from cities will only make their desire to wage war more insatiable, not less.

[Donald]

Originally posted by Canajew
and let me ask you something. If we could make it so that the Israelis and Palestinians could live in parallel universes so that each has the entire amount of land they desire, would you accept that? This is about as likely as your proposal.

You ignore the fact, of course that one of the reasons WHY the Arabs attacked Israel so many times was because of its vulnerability. Vulnerable borders does not allow for the facilitation of real peace, rather they creat an unstoppable incentive for the extremists and the dictators to act out their aggression.

If we could all live in a magical mystery universe where the Arabs suddeently begin acting like a normal civilized society full of normal, civilized people then fine, this seems good. But of course they will not act like that, they have no history, no institutions, no civl society. And so giving them land on Israel's doorstep and steps away from cities will only make their desire to wage war more insatiable, not less.

I asked a specific question. You haven't answered it.

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by Donald
Okay, here's a hypothetical question for you MBB8. If you could have a true peace within the 1947 borders. No more deaths on either side. Trade, good relations, reparations for damage and deaths on both sides, and all the rest of it. Would you accept that? If I may answer your question, the my answer is NO. We have rights to hold the WB and Gaza.

Besides, it's totally hypothetical. The Arabs don't want peace with us, they never really did!

[Mediocrates]

Originally posted by Donald
If you could have a true peace within the 1947 borders. No more deaths on either side. Trade, good relations, reparations for damage and deaths on both sides, and all the rest of it. Would you accept that?


No I would not. They were designed to be unfair then and they are just as unfair now.

lemme ask you
If peace could be guaranteed using the guidelines expressed by the "King" of Transjordan in 1947 - to wit - limited Jewish enclaves in and around Tel Aviv, no country, no Jewish citizenship, would you accept that?

[Donald]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh
If I may answer your question, the my answer is NO. We have rights to hold the WB and Gaza.

Besides, it's totally hypothetical. The Arabs don't want peace with us, they never really did!

I see.

[Ahava]

Originally posted by Donald
Okay, here's a hypothetical question for you MBB8. If you could have a true peace within the 1947 borders. No more deaths on either side. Trade, good relations, reparations for damage and deaths on both sides, and all the rest of it. Would you accept that?

Why '47 borders? Why not '67 (pre-war) borders? Let's go back to the 3000 years bC borders.

[Canajew]

Originally posted by Donald
I asked a specific question. You haven't answered it.

you are correct, because its like me asking you if 1+2=5, would you accept that 5 can be broken up into a group of 1 and a group of two. The answer is yes, as would my answer be, but as the proposition is an impossible falsehood my answer is kind of besides the point.

So yes, if there can be real peace and Israeli nationals are allowed to live in "Palestine" like Arabs are allowed to live in Israel, then sure. But this is impossible and so the question means very little.

Can I ask you a better question? If the palestinians are not interested in real peace (whihc they are not), would you support Israel annexing all the land behind the wall? Or this: If the Palestinians again attempt a genocidal war, would you support Israel throwing them all out?

[Communication]

on second thought, I'm staying out of this --please delete--

[MGB8]

If G-d himself came down from heaven and said - I gaurantee that you will be safe and secure and at peace and with good relations with your neighbors if you return to the 47 or 48 borders, and that its ok not to have access to Jerusalem or access to many religious sites, and I will smite your enemies who attack you, for I am the lord your G-d...

Then sure, I'd do it.

WAKE UP FROM YOUR FANTASY WORLD!!!

There is NO SUCH THING as a gauranteed Peace. Peace is simply words on paper.

How Naive are you? What dream land do you live in? How old are you?

I've gotten this line of questioning before from others....

Donald, grow the F up. I'm sorry for the harshness but this type of stupidity pi@@es me off.

Peace agreements don't mean anything mroe than a declaration of a halt of hostilities. They can resume at any time, and there is nothing you can do about. Nothing. The International community doesn't give a damn - see the genocides all over the world that are allowed - they care when oil or other such interests are at stake.

The Arabs are not all of one mind, and they can change their minds.

Trade between nations doesn't guarantee peace, either - see Britain and France and Germany.

The only thing that gets you security is strong stragic defense.

The 47 borders, in the real world - not Donald's fanatasy land - are suicide. The 48 borders are suicide.

You need strategic depth. And you need a strong army.



Originally posted by Donald
Okay, here's a hypothetical question for you MBB8. If you could have a true peace within the 1947 borders. No more deaths on either side. Trade, good relations, reparations for damage and deaths on both sides, and all the rest of it. Would you accept that?

[old-reb]

Here this from a long time muslim.

quote:
The Islamic concept of peace, meaning making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war.

Submitted by a long-time resident in the Muslim world.
end quote

old reb

[mrsherwin]

Originally posted by old-reb
Here this from a long time muslim.

quote:
The Islamic concept of peace, meaning making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war.

Submitted by a long-time resident in the Muslim world.
end quote

old reb

no it doesnt mate , peace in their language means peace not war , you can really annoy people when you state glaring lies , unless though u genuinely believe what you have just said if that is the case , don,t take my word for it see for yourself , peace means peace in any religon .as people we are not all that different
obviously most people on this board would be better suited if it was called hate arabs ,
which says it all really

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
no it doesnt mate , peace in their language means peace not war , you can really annoy people when you state glaring lies , unless though u genuinely believe what you have just said if that is the case , don,t take my word for it see for yourself , peace means peace in any religon .as people we are not all that different
obviously most people on this board would be better suited if it was called hate arabs ,
which says it all really

Tell us then. Prove us your vast knowlage of Arabic, and explain this to us? How do you say "peace" in Arabic? Bare in mind, I do speak Arabic (less then I should, more then enough).

[mrsherwin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Tell us then. Prove us your vast knowlage of Arabic, and explain this to us? How do you say "peace" in Arabic? Bare in mind, I do speak Arabic (less then I should, more then enough). [/QUOTE
if you want the google definition you know what to do , my point is that peace like hate like love are all states of being , all people understand theese concepts and all languages , be it arabic , hebrew , swahili or creole , HAVE a word or symbol to describe these states of being , PEACE has a verbal representaion in the arabic language and it does not mean war or hate it means peace.

[old-reb]

Hello Mr Sherwin,

It is not hate that make us cynical about peace by people like Arafat. He talks peace to the world but then he sends out terrorist bombers and claims he had nothing to do with it.

To Palestines, peace is only a way to gain advantage before next war. It is a holy war to exterminate the Jews. The hate is on the part of the palestines. Just look at them coming out of their mosque after a hate filled sermon by their Imams. They are taught hate from the time they are babys.

The Jews would like nothing more than to live in peace with Muslims but while Jews have no problem living under other governments, Muslims must have Muslim government in order to live Muslim life and then with Sharia law they destory other religious people.

old reb

[Canajew]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Tell us then. Prove us your vast knowlage of Arabic, and explain this to us? How do you say "peace" in Arabic? Bare in mind, I do speak Arabic (less then I should, more then enough). [/QUOTE
if you want the google definition you know what to do , my point is that peace like hate like love are all states of being , all people understand theese concepts and all languages , be it arabic , hebrew , swahili or creole , HAVE a word or symbol to describe these states of being , PEACE has a verbal representaion in the arabic language and it does not mean war or hate it means peace.

I think the point which Gilgamesh was trying to make, (and I'm not sure but I think I have heard it before) is that in Arabic there IS no word for peace (I could be wrong and am not sure at all about this). And when dealing with abstract concepts, when the words do not exist the clear perception of what is spoken about is not really understood. We see this across other languages as well, and this is why, for example, there can be 20+ words for 'snow' in some Inuit languages but we get by with one or a few. It is difficult for us to coneptualize, and would take many words for us to conceptualize, what for them can be summed up in a single word. If this is the case for peace in Arabic, it is just another example of how far Arabs need to come in order to enter the modern era and start acting peacibly and honestly with neighbours.



As I said, I may be wrong. I just remembered I think the word they do not have is 'compromise', and that speaks volumes, does it not?

[Donna]

I wonder if you have made your way to any arab/muslim discussion Forums to talk about peace between Israelis and Palestinians?

Please remember, the Israelis are not the ones who are raising their children with the goal of becoming suicide bombers. Israelis are not the ones who name streets after said suicide bombers who are considered heroes to be emulated, and martyrs.

[Gilgamesh]

Peace means Salam in Arabic. Almost always in context with Dar al Salam, which is the part of the world dominated by muslems. The rest is called: Dar al Harab. Region of the sword.

Muslems can have peace only with other muslems. With non muslems that can have cease fire, tops!

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by mrsherwin
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gilgamesh
Tell us then. Prove us your vast knowlage of Arabic, and explain this to us? How do you say "peace" in Arabic? Bare in mind, I do speak Arabic (less then I should, more then enough). [/QUOTE
if you want the google definition you know what to do , my point is that peace like hate like love are all states of being , all people understand theese concepts and all languages , be it arabic , hebrew , swahili or creole , HAVE a word or symbol to describe these states of being , PEACE has a verbal representaion in the arabic language and it does not mean war or hate it means peace. What a bunch of BS!!! You obviously on wead or something. Doesn't it illegal in your country?

Obviously you "assume" arabs want peace in all cost. You assume that all people are alike and all cultures are the same. You assume that every man has the same liking for Guiness and the everybody speaks English... (it works in the movies, not? )

It is a form of racism, you know. Assuming one culture is ultimate. one size fits all. And there could be no variation. You can hardly grasp the concept of different people and different culture in you square little European mind. unable to preform the simplest abstractions... how pittyful!!!

People and their cultures are very different. So are their conditions and and thier defenitions for peace. From the Arabs I know, and from what ever I read about Arab "culture", they cannot be trusted, they have different concepts, not only for "peace" but also for "truth", "reality" right and wrong.

Arabs are humans like us, but whole different people. Compaletly different civilization which adopted the worst of European culture and civilization, anti semetism, racism, religious fanatism.

[old-reb]

Originally posted by Gilgamesh


Muslems can have peace only with other muslems. With non muslems that can have cease fire, tops!

Hamas is now offering peace for 10 years if Israel will pull back to the 97 borders.

old reb

[Gilgamesh]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hamas is now offering peace for 10 years if Israel will pull back to the 97 borders.

old reb

I guess they already know were they can shove that peace of theirs...


9 terrorists dead so far by IDF in a gun skrimish around Gaza.

[yoyo]

Originally posted by old-reb
Hamas is now offering peace for 10 years if Israel will pull back to the 97 borders.

old reb

10 years... I see, that is a sign that they understand their options are shrinking fast and this is solely due to Israel tracking them like the dogs they are. Carry on, I say, when they start talking about 1000 years you;ll know they would have all been exterminated :mad:

[RichardP]

Originally posted by yoyo
10 years... I see, that is a sign that they understand their options are shrinking fast and this is solely due to Israel tracking them like the dogs they are. Carry on, I say, when they start talking about 1000 years you;ll know they would have all been exterminated :mad:

Can anyone believe, let alone trust, a guarantee from the UN? If they manufactured “toasters”; the guarantee wouldn’t be worth the paper it’s printed on. Also, whether there is or isn’t, a word for Peace in Arabic; they sure as hell have no grasp of its connotation, anymore than put it into action.
it sounds good to me, yoyo!