The root of mideast violence

[stmdk]

I'm about fed up with the finger pointing and anti-semetic accusations from the jewish community. It seems to me that the self proclaimed "chosen people" (as if that isn't discrimintation) have made a habit of making the world feel anti-semetic if it doesn't have pity for the jewish people. Everyone is afarid to disagree with the views of the Jewish community because they'll be labelled as anti-semetic. "Thou shalt no bear false witness gainst they neighbor" Ever hear of it???

Get a grip. EVERYONE, every race, religion, and people have at one time been persecuted. Israel isn't packed with the only people that have lived through hell on earth. I say it's time to practice what you preach. If you want to whine about a history of occupation and discrimination then stop practicing it against your arab brothers.

Finally get on with life. Stop dwelling on the past and the horrific history of it so you can focus on a brighter future. If you choose to live in the past, you will never have a future. Treat people equally, including the arabs. God does not only belong to the jewish people. God is not to be used as an excuse for the poor choices of men.

As for Islam, I think you need an internal adjustment. I KNOW Islam is not a violent religion. Claims of such are based on misinterpretation of texts or just idiots picking out specific parts to boast their claims. Islamic leaders need to control the wide-spread corruption of it's religion by radical groups. We are all children of the one true God and there should be a unity from this, not division.

I'm sickened by both of you for using God as an excuse for the evils you do.

For the record I have no specific religion. I beleive in God and I beleive that he has sent many sons to this world. You. me, Jesus, and Muhammed. Some of us were better children then others. We are all equal. While we may choose religion leader to put on a pedistal, God has never given us that right. I refuse to bicker over specifics or so-called "pure" texts/bibles that have been in the hands of untrustworthy men for centuries. All of our beleifs have the same common themes and THAT commonality is what we all need to focus on.

While may words may seem harsh, they are not meant to be. I'm very furstrated to see men treat eacho ther the way they do when God has never sanctioned this. In my soul I know this to be true. Peace can only be acheived though forgiveness not revenge.


-stmdk

[Flame]

Stmdk... what is going on now is not about revenge. It is about rooting out and dismantling the terrorists. Israel is not at war with the "people."

If terrorism is not diffused NOW... we can all look forward to a nuke in the future.

[stmdk]

Both sides are wrong. Neither more or less than the other. I blame Israel for commiting what it knows to be wrong, and I blame the radical idiots that have perverted the Islamic religion into a weapon.

God belongs to all of us. No one is "chosen". He not an excuse to kill or discriminate against your brother. In this case religion is being used only when it's convenient, and only when God can be used to support your views.

All of us, Catholics, Christians, Jews, Islamic, and Jewish have the same common beleifs. Yet we fight over the specifics. We try to make our own small group of beleivers into those that are "Special" to God. No one is special. We are all equal. If we can agree that we are all brothers and focus on forgiveness instead of revenge, we will be closer to peace. Pulling out a religious text doesn't support your view anymore. Which do you beleive in more, a book, or the answer you know to be right in your soul.

Israel, you know that the occupation and discrimination is wrong. By continuing it, you have no room to complain about the past.

Palestine, you know that Islam does not preach killing, and dying for God is one thing but killing yourself and others is not God's will.

We're all victims of each other. Victims of our own arrogance, and our unwillingness to find the commonality within our faith. Dying for dirt is futile. You can't take it with you to heaven.

[stmdk]

You cannot honesly tell me that you can root out terrorism through force? History has proven that this does not work. It has never worked in all of history. You would have to kill every terrorist, his children who will revenge him/her, friends, ect. You can't do it through force.

On top of that, what is a terrorist??? Next apply that to the history of the American revolution, the fight for the creation of Israel, and every other fight for independance in the world. You will find a terrorist in every fight and on every side. History is written by the victor but it doesn't change the truth. We can point our fingers but we're all guilty of terrorism. Either by suicide bombings, state occupation, economic confinement, discrimination, or anything else which causes fear. The weapons may change but the affects are the same.

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by stmdk
You cannot honesly tell me that you can root out terrorism through force? History has proven that this does not work. It has never worked in all of history. You would have to kill every terrorist, his children who will revenge him/her, friends, ect. You can't do it through force.

Please provide us some examples of how terrorism -- or any type of military conflict -- is brought to a halt. History clearly shows that one side has to defeat the other.

What keeps terrorism going is the belief that the rewards outweigh the risks. Just like everything else in life. Note that the PA has built an entire social structure around terrorism.

This terrorist culture is a direct result of the Oslo Peace Process. The PA is not interested in peace with Israel. They are interested in destroying Israel. They saw the "peace process" as a stepping stone to that goal. The West was willing to put pressure on Israel to (1) help the Palestinians create an armed "police", (2) allow Yasir Arafat, the Father of all Terrorists, to set up shop in the West Bank and Gaza, and (3) to give the PA autonomy so it could smuggle in weapons, teach children starting in kindergarten that blowing up Jews is the greatest thing they can ever do in this life, and to pretend that they are "fighting" terrorists when in fact they have built a united front of terrorists.

On top of that, what is a terrorist??? Next apply that to the history of the American revolution, the fight for the creation of Israel, and every other fight for independance in the world. You will find a terrorist in every fight and on every side. History is written by the victor but it doesn't change the truth. We can point our fingers but we're all guilty of terrorism. Either by suicide bombings, state occupation, economic confinement, discrimination, or anything else which causes fear. The weapons may change but the affects are the same.

Total nonsense. Have you ever read a credible history book in your life? During the American revolution, there were no terrorist attacks upon British civilians.

To suggest that "economic confinement" has the same "affects" [sic] as blowing up a bunch of teenagers at a disco or cafe is immoral.

[L@mplighterM]

Are you a Muslim bible thumper stmdk?

You say you believe in god and then you quote a commandment so you must have some inkling of the bible and its contents.

You KNOW Islam is not a violent religion (*LOOOOOOOOL*). Do you have first hand knowledge of this or are you fantasizing?

Are you related to Thair by any chance?

In you posts you state quite clearly that you cannot root out terrorism through force. I don?t suppose you view Adolph Hitler, Eichmann, Himmler and so on as terrorists but I do. They were eliminated by force but maybe you don?t see them as terrorists.

In Syria, Lebanon and other places in the world they sure did a wonderful job of eliminating Islamic Fundamentalists.

You complain about the Jews whining but throughout your posts all I see is whine, whine and whine some more.

[Elena]

This terrorist culture is a direct result of the Oslo Peace Process.
Idon´t believe that. This absurd violence is a direct result of the fail of the Oslo Peace Process. Arab and jews had a lot of hopes that attain a true peace in this process, and this fail create a great disillusion and anger in the both sides.

You KNOW Islam is not a violent religion(*LOOOOOOOOL*). Do you have first hand knowledge of this or are you fantasizing?

Every religion can be fundamentalist if their leaders use it as a weapon against their enemies. The evidence was in the history, The horrible saint inquisition in Spain against jews, muslins and the own christians too. The muslins that use the yihad only in your own benefit. The christians protestant fanatics against the catholics and the catholics against the protestans in the wars of religion in Europe. The fanatics jews who killed Rabin... is ever the same history "God is with us and against our enemies and we have the right of destroy them"

An evidende of the islamic tolerance was the islamic kingdown in the iberic peninsula (today Spain and Portugal). A long time ago the muslins conquered the iberic peninsula and created a great islamic kingdown.

A lot of Christians was converted to the islamic religion because it was fascinating for them the new culture (The muslins culture was in all his splendor whereas europe was in decadency. The muslin Cordoba was the cultural capital of the continent in those times), but the muslins respect the people that doesn´t want to be muslin and permit them to live in their towns in peace.

The christians don´t respect the muslins people and throw out from their christians kingdowns. Only with the conquest of Toledo a cathothic king noticed that there lived cristians under islamic goverment and permit in his kingdown to live the muslins under christian goverment.

(Some centuries later the spanish kings don´t tolerate this coexistence between different religions and throw out Spain jews and muslins in one of the worst and sad episodes of the history of my country)

[Gatorade]

ibrodsky, you remind me of Spock on Star Trek. You are so rational. I always like reading your stuff.

I do think some people do call others anti-Semitic when someone merely critisizes Israel. I haven't really seen it much here but do see it happening. When someone does have an interesting opinion and the only rebuttal is that they are anti-Semitic that doesn't help clear up or really win the argument for the Israeli side.

Here is an example. I was reading another message board. Someone posted this article to read, which I found very interesting and how I understood things.

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/The_Only_Way_to_Peace.asp

Then someone responded with what I can see is a valid argument for the other side. Others called him anti-Semitic for bring this up but I wouldn't call him that. I would, however, like to hear a good argument to point out how he is wrong.

"You always hear Israelis saying our country is so small and we are surrounded by enemies. This begs the questions: 1)What in the blue hell did you move there for? 2)Since they constantly harp on how small their country is, am I to believe they didn't intend to conquer the West Bank and Jerusalem all along with or without any excuse for their preemptive strike in 1967? Which begs the further question - why the immediate placement of settlements on occupied land? It seems that for the Israelis, first they wanted a small homeland (clearly nothing is available that would accomodate that many immigrants without further conquests from their neighbors) then once they have it all we hear is how damn small it is. You can understand why many Arabs feared what a few Zionists claimed in public all along - that from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates should rightly belong to Israel and that was the Zionist dream."

[Flame]

The question Gatorade is why did the League of Nations divide the British mandate of Palestine 20/80 ??

Why did the League give 80% of palestine to arabs ( Jordan)... and only 20% to the Jews?

Why do the the arabs keep invading and encroaching on Israel?

5000 years ago our forefathers made a pact with god... and this why the Jews are in that region to begin with. This is why the area is considered a homeland for people of torah and not by racial division.

Do you think the first Jews realized that 5000 years later this was going to be a problem for the rest of the world? And when Moses spoke to god 4000 years ago and brought the Jewsih slaves out of Egypt to the Holy Land... do you think they were trying to provoke a world that Christianity and islam hadn't been born yet?

What do you think about that Jews who were spread out all over the middle east and all chased out? And that even Medina... islamic mecca had been a major Jewish community?

The question is.... why does islam and christianity have a problem with Jews and why can't they just leave Jews alone into what has shrunk to this tiny area.... which was not so tiny to start off with?

[ibrodsky]

I do think some people do call others anti-Semitic when someone merely critisizes Israel. I haven't really seen it much here but do see it happening. When someone does have an interesting opinion and the only rebuttal is that they are anti-Semitic that doesn't help clear up or really win the argument for the Israeli side.

It's true some Jews hide behind the "anti-semitic" charge.

But it's also true that many anti-semites hide behind criticism of Israel. After centuries of persecuting Jews, nearly all of Europe now indulges in criticism of Israel. "Israel is racist." "Israel violates human rights." Gee, Israel is so bad it seems to absolve Europeans of their past misdeeds against Jews...

Originally posted by Gatorade
ibrodsky, you remind me of Spock on Star Trek. You are so rational. I always like reading your stuff.

Live long and prosper!

I think we Jews will do much better once we have our own planet. Of course, the Klingons (a.k.a., militant Islam) will claim it is "theirs."

[L@mplighterM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elena



Every religion can be fundamentalist if their leaders use it as a weapon against their enemies. The evidence was in the history, The horrible saint inquisition in Spain against jews, muslins and the own christians too. The muslins that use the yihad only in your own benefit. The christians protestant fanatics against the catholics and the catholics against the protestans in the wars of religion in Europe. The fanatics jews who killed Rabin... is ever the same history "God is with us and against our enemies and we have the right of destroy them"

Whatever happened a long time ago happened and cannot be altered. If I were to open old wounds I would have reason to target the Germans.

How about I go after the Catholics for what they did to my ancestors? I’m having a hard time deciding whom I should target next. Why don’t I just work at destroying all of humanity that should cover all the bases?

The point is that I can do very little to alter the course of civilization other than destroying it if I want to dwell on what happened in the distant past.

Keeping things current Islamic Fundamentalism is a threat to political stability throughout the world. Bin Ladens hope was to destabilize the west and have them plunge into an economic depression. This time the Islamic Fundamentalists weren’t successful but there will be other attempts in the future. Try and try again they will accept nothing short of success.

A fundamental right of humanity is that everyone has the right to fight against whatever is contrary for the common good. Israel is doing that right now and should have the full support of NATO sadly they do not.

Take a bit of time to read about Arafat and his violent history and then tell me whether an individual like that is capable of altering his psyche and becoming a man of peace? You might argue that an old dog can learn new tricks.

All it would take to stop the war is to have Arafat address his people and tell them that the time has come to end the suffering and join forces with his enemies and destroy and/or arrest every terrorist in the West Bank and Gaza strip. Then I’m certain that the hostilities will end and the peace process could start.

I believe Israel would accept this although admittedly I would not. Arafat should be arrested and tried for crimes against humanity and executed.

It’s a disgrace that an individual like that benefited financially and was given the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Flame]

When criticism of Israel is based on opinion and not facts... and when those with the opinions are not interested in the facts... then yes... this is "anti-semitism."


Look at the attacks of Jews and synagogs in France... the president refuses to call it hate crimes or anti-semitism.

[Gatorade]

Flame, Could it be argued the 20/80 divide was based on land ownership? The population at the time was about 1.2 Arab and 600,000 Jewish.

Can we remove religion from the justification for things? Once religion is involved people's arguement lose some power in my mind.

Since no one has taken it upon themselves to provide a counter argument for the quote that was simply called anti-Semitic and and dismissed instead of debated, let me give it a try.

"You always hear Israelis saying our country is so small and we are surrounded by enemies. This begs the questions: 1)What in the blue hell did you move there for? 2)Since they constantly harp on how small their country is, am I to believe they didn't intend to conquer the West Bank and Jerusalem all along with or without any excuse for their preemptive strike in 1967? Which begs the further question - why the immediate placement of settlements on occupied land? It seems that for the Israelis, first they wanted a small homeland (clearly nothing is available that would accomodate that many immigrants without further conquests from their neighbors) then once they have it all we hear is how damn small it is. You can understand why many Arabs feared what a few Zionists claimed in public all along - that from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates should rightly belong to Israel and that was the Zionist dream."

My thoughts - Israel isn't saying it is small to get sympathy or pretend to be the underdog. Articles that mention its size do so to provide information since most people don't realize it is a small nation.

The use of the term "occupied land" I find questionable. It is similiar to people who use the term undocumented workers
instead of illegal aliens. The term should be something like non-annexed land. The Palestinians who live on this land never had a county that has been occupied.

The idea that Israel would wish "further conquests" is laughable. Israel was never termed the aggressor in the 1967 War or any war (as far as I can tell) by United Nations. On What historical basis could one claim that Israel would wish to conquer more land. Furthermore, Israel has shown that it will negotiate and give up land for peace when Israel gave up oil rich land on the Sinai Penisula. It tried to gain peace with the Palestinian people through negotiations about 18 months ago but Arafat left the table even though 95% of his land demands were offered.

Zionists may dream that Israel expand to the "Mediterranean to the Euphrates" but what does that have to do with reality. I may dream that I will own Malibu. Neither of us have power to actually carry out our dreams, so they are pretty irrelevent.

[L@mplighterM]

Say stmdk if Muslems are so peaceful why does the Hamas have a Charter that treathens to kill all jews?

Section from the Charter:

The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and
kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0
Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will
not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and
Muslim)(18).