Anti-Semitism or Criticism of Israel? [Archive]

Flame

04-06-2002, 12:33 PM

But the Jews living in Israel have the facts to make their opinions with.

Do you ever see people go after Chinese people in America about China's politics? Do you see American's go after blacks individually because they disagree with jackson or farakan? When people discuss the priests that molest children and critize the vatican... no one ever feels like non-Catholics are bashing them personally... but criticizing Isreal usually is about not just the Jews of Israel but extends to disporia.

When the 2 IDF were slaughtered and the pals threw out their blood-covered hands in that photo... I was at a cafe at the moment unaware of the situation... this little nazi working there started screaming at me as if I was personally responcible... you murderer you're all murderers... it didn't seem to matter to him that it was the Jews who were slaughtered.

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

If in fact the Israel bashers criticsim was based on actual facts and not from propaganda, lies and distrotions, then fine... but all the conversations I hear sound more like pure Jew hate. Sorry to dissagree.

The arab world is one giant sea of Jew hate... if the focus was on their own dictators within their own nations, and not about Israel... do you think there would even be a reason for mass criticism of Israel? In all the talk I hear of Israel bashing... I not only hear silence about the crimes committed by arabs... but these people seem to feel that to say anything about the terrorists is a smear against islam and arabs... how can you have it both ways?

99% of arabs in the arab world have never met a Jew or been to Israel. And yet, Jerusalem is there's and the evil Jews are humiliating them.

As that old Jew jesus is noted as saying... those who are free of sin can cast the first stone... something like that.

Gatorade

04-06-2002, 01:22 PM

I am not that informed about all this stuff but here is how I see it.

I think a distinction could be made between anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, and anti-Zionist.

Israel is a nation.
Zionism - not really sure what to make of it yet(still reading about it) but see it as a movement or idealogy
Jews are a people.

People can talk negatively about Israel and not be anti-Semitic. And many people who are anti-Semitic are against Israel but there is a distinciton in my mind.

If people over use the term anti-Semitic, it will lose its weight when it really is the case.

L@mplighterM

04-06-2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Flame

When the 2 IDF were slaughtered and the pals threw out their blood-covered hands in that photo... I was at a cafe at the moment unaware of the situation... this little nazi working there started screaming at me as if I was personally responcible... you murderer you're all murderers... it didn't seem to matter to him that it was the Jews who were slaughtered.

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

I recalled that incident very well and I was outraged when I watched soldiers being slaughtered (during or the aftermath can’t recall which) in the footage on CNN.

As I write now in the present the world is increasing its momentum with anti Israeli sentiment all the way from southern to the northern hemisphere. Israeli flags are being spat at in Australia and boycotts are being considered in Scandinavia. Never before in my living memory have I ever witnessed such outrage against Israel in so many nations.

I personally witnessed pro Palestinian persons handing out (perhaps selling them I was driving) newspapers. I saw the headline as I was stopped at a light (STOP ISRAEL).

There could only be ONE reason for this and that is that Israel has lost the war on words. I know that people have a short memory and can be manipulated like putty but this is not a positive sign for Israel. This time Israel has played right into the hands of Arafat he sits there and cries and the world jumps to is aid.

cerulean

04-06-2002, 05:05 PM

It may be theoretically possible to oppose Israel and not be anti-Semitic, but I'm not sure it ever happens in practice.

One exception would be those ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups (such as the Satmer sect) that have the sincere belief that the founding of modern Israel was wrong (for various complex religious reasons that I would have to research again to make sure I was representing properly). I don't think they are anti-Semitic.

L@mplighterM

04-06-2002, 06:22 PM

Interesting concept what are you a defense lawyer looking for a loophole or something?

Let’s say that you were colored and you hated yourself. Would you be a racist? My answer would be no.

What if you were a mulatto and you hated whites? Would you only be half racist? I’m not smart enough to answer that question.
What if you were ¼ white or 1/8th white? What then?

Back to your question could you oppose Israel and not be anti-Semitic?

If you were referring to the present I would say that you would not be anti-Semitic if you were a Jew that opposed Israel.

You would be a Jew that opposed Israel.

muslim4israel2

04-07-2002, 03:53 PM

I criticise Israel incursions into Palestinian areas, I criticise Israel human rights abuses. But I'm not anti Israeli, or anti Jewish. I criticise Palestinain terror attacks, but I'm not anti Palestine.

Theres wrong on both sides, Israel is the regional power, and thus in the commanding position-thus gets the rap.

I'm just an objective analyst, who recognises Israels right to safety but criticises the methods.

The anti-semetic thing is used to death.

General X

04-16-2002, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Flame

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

99% of arabs in the arab world have never met a Jew or been to Israel. And yet, Jerusalem is there's and the evil Jews are humiliating them.

As that old Jew jesus is noted as saying... those who are free of sin can cast the first stone... something like that.

Remember, though I wholeheartedly agree with you, that only about 70% of Arabs actually CAN go. Some are too old, too young, disabled, prohibited by law, can't afford to travel out of their Arab holes, etc.

The message boards question you had? That one is easy. Clearly, the forums are meant for discussion about Israel; though it is possible for it to be discussed, the primary focus is not on China, Russia, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Ukraine, Taiwan, Indonesia... and other countries. If a country relates to Israel, such as anti-semetic demonstrations occuring there and such, then it is bound to come up somewhere in the forums. So that is why the Israel bashers do their Israel bashing here, and not China bashers doing their China bashing. Of course, there is no problem with bringing up issues dealing with China to illustrate the hypocrtiscm, but most see that the intent of the forums was to discuss topics more pertinent to Israel. I agree with you, though, that china has a much worse Human Rights Record, and their army is known for brutalizing Buddhists and the Taiwanians. Israel is under scrutiny because of it's strategic and diplomatic location in relation to the enemies (and so-called friends) of the United States, and the oil producing axis. Europe has interests there as well. They figure, let the Chinese do whatever they want... it doesn't affect us so who gives a damn. It's not right, but that's human nature, although human nature does not give them an excuse for being so irrational. I hope I have sufficiently covered the question about the message boards, and I usually agree with you.

PS. Everyone: Watch Alan Keyes, he really does make sense, has an entertaining show, you KNOW he's a nice guy, and he knows Israel is behaving justly, or just as justly as any other nation.

Mediocrates

04-22-2002, 11:45 AM

Here's what I believe:

NEVER forget you are a Jew. No one else will.

Vic

04-23-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
This topic seems to come up often in many discussions.
Many Jews perceive most anti-Israel views as being based not on political opinions, but on underlying anti-Semitism in general.

What do you think?

Basically it's not the criticism as such, but the manner of it. Too aggressive, too joyous, too irrational. It just stinks. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that the Palestinians are real and not a modern-day version of the bloody matzohs. In my experience even Jews unconcerned with the Middle East issues tend to recognize the emotions underlying this "criticism", the trouble is that nobody seems to know how to deal with them. Trying to find some nice, easily recognizable, "logical" distinctions (yes, you can criticise this, but not that; yes, this term is legitimate, but please don't use that expression; etc.) is a waste of time. One can only trust one's own instincts. No amount of information materials, no efforts invested in hasbara campaigns would ever achieve the even the tiniest positive effect, because in the Western world "criticizing Israel" is simply a matter of having great fun.

Mediocrates

04-23-2002, 12:18 PM

Never. While you may not know if the person you're speaking to is merely criticizing Israel or is some crypto anti Semite, who cares? Why give that person an entre? Why be coopted? Most of the literate world and large parts of the illiterate world wants to spit on the graves of all Jews. Why grace them with a cooperative discussion? There's plenty of support around for the Jew haters so they don't need mine.

Eventually we can all go back to being good old school socialist zionists and plant trees and dance. Right now the time is to be radical and pick up a gun.

Mediocrates

04-23-2002, 12:19 PM

They can kill me or they can try.

sharonbn

04-24-2002, 06:41 AM

What about Israelis who condemn Israeli actions? (like the soldiers who refuse to serve in the occupied territories)

Are they anti-semitic?

Mediocrates

04-24-2002, 09:26 AM

No. That's just dereliction of duty. It might be for a cause of concience but it's still dereliction of duty. Armies are not democracies and persons who enact civil disobedience should be prepared for the inevitable consequences of their own actions.

Though I wonder how many suicide bombers in waiting who have a change of heart are simply dissappeared instead of cited for disciplinary action?

ibrodsky

04-24-2002, 03:23 PM

Since a quote from me started this thread...

Of course it's possible to criticize Israel and not be anti-semitic. Reasonable people may disagree about policies. Many people are swayed by the media or what seems to be the most popular view; they base their opinions on what they believe is common knowledge.

The point of my original statement was not that everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semitic. My point was that anti-semites are having a field day because Israel-bashing is "in." They can bash all they want, and if any of us complain that they are anti-semitic, we get that little lecture about how you can't dismiss all criticism of Israel as anti-semitism.

My conclusion is that we face a very tough PR battle. It would be one thing to simply deal with those who disagree with Israel's policies -- or even those who have some of the basic facts wrong. But there is an army of anti-semites always at the ready to exaggerate Israel's misdeeds, excuse the Palestinians crimes, and echo the Big Lies.

As Ariel Sharon said after the Seder massacre, he received many calls from world leaders who were anxious to find out whether Arafat was confined to two rooms or three, but did not ask about the fate of the terrorist attack victims.

I doubt most of these leaders are anti-semitic. I think they are simply swept up by the fact that Israel-bashing and sympathy for Palestinians are popular among their constituents. What makes it all pernicious is that these people are too lazy to make sure they really have the facts, and they are willing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with anti-semites as long as the anti-semites are not too open or blatant.

Actually, this is analogous to what happened during WWII. I doubt that most Germans wanted to exterminate Europe's Jews. But they were swept up in the popular notion that Jews were at least partly responsible for Germany's problems. No doubt, many thought that just because you criticize Jews does not mean that you are aiming to wipe them out.

My conclusion: those who criticize Israel and who are not anti-semitic are morally obligated to ensure that their criticisms are not used by anti-semites. Clearly, European govts are critical of the Israeli govt, and anti-semites think this means it's OK (wink, wink) to attack Jews and synagogues .

The best example of this are those who are soft on terrorism. Whether they intend it or not, by excusing the Palestinians ("What else can they do? -- they don't have tanks") they are encouraging terrorist attacks against defenseless civilians.

Mediocrates

04-24-2002, 06:27 PM

I originally wrote something about a common front and disloyalty and about how any minority needs to present an uncrackable public persona. But I crossed it out. Here's what I want to say. It's fine for Jews and Israelis generally to voice concern and disapproval with the current policies. I welcome all of the opinions even if I hate some of them and believe that they are treason. The test of any open society is its ability to withstand criticism from within.

Vic

05-14-2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Though I wonder how many suicide bombers in waiting who have a change of heart are simply dissappeared instead of cited for disciplinary action?
Neither one nor the the other to judge by this article:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011119fa_FACT1
But it is probably a bit old by now

Cruelty

05-19-2002, 12:20 AM

There is a very distinct difference between anti-Semitic opinions and anti-Israeli opinions. The reason these two are often confused is simple: Namely that the supporters of Israel use it as a defense. When someone claims that you are being anti-Semitic your argument is instantly shattered (in America at least) it is the best defense they can think of to avoid criticism of their beloved Israeli state. The difference can be best illustrated with an analogous situation. If you were to criticize the Spanish Inquisition would that make you anti-Christian? No, the idea is preposterous, and so it should be with Israel.

To criticize a nation with a poor human rights record (to be kind) does not necessarily mean you hate all people who are of the same religious background. To use the pathetic defense that any who criticize Israel hate Jews and are no better than Nazis is both childish and laughable.

It has been said that honest critics of Israel and anti-Semites stand shoulder to shoulder in their criticism of Israel. While certainly some anti-Semites align themselves with critics of Israel the anti-Israeli viewpoint cannot be dismissed as racist. There are a GREAT deal of valid complaints one could make concerning the legitimacy of the Israeli state, their policies regarding the Palestinian Authority, the practices of the IDF and the Mossad, and the construction of Jewish settlements on Palestinian land.

I would offer the alternative viewpoint that the Israelis and to a lesser extent Americans are anti-Arab. Nowhere else in the world can atrocities be so overlooked as those committed by the Israelis against the Arabs. Countries like China and WWII era Germany were either fought against or threatened with sanctions. For similar atrocities what faces Israel? Nothing but more military aid. Israel is no third world nation that cannot defend itself against foreign aggressors. They are occupying the land of those who attack them and they possess the capabilities to easily repulse attacks from surrounding countries. Yet still they are the number one recipient of US military aid.

Israel stands in the Middle East as one of the most potent and effective militaries in the world and still they receive billions of dollars of aid. Who do they fight? Enemies of the United States? No, or at least they wouldn’t be if the US didn’t make them so. That Israel’s human rights violations are overlooked as aid continues to flow into the war machine that is gradually grinding the Palestinians into permanent refugees, detainees, and suicide bombers accedes to the anti-Arab sentiments the United States holds. It is clear by the way Israel deals with the Palestinians that the mere thought of them brings an unpleasant taste to their palette. With peace deals that only hint at what the Palestinians strive for and constant settlement building in their territory how can it be anything other than racially-based hatred? Israel’s supposed “right to exist” often interferes with that of the Palestinian people.

Racism applies to all races and the Palestinians hate the Jews no more than the Jews hate them.

Batman

05-21-2002, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Muslim4Israel2

I'm just an objective analyst, who recognises Israels right to safety but criticises the methods.

There is no moral equivilancy between the Arab-Palestinian attacks on innocent civilains eating Pizza and shopping for food in supermarkets and Israelis defending against Palestinian bomb factories, and an entire Arab-Palestinian society intended to destroy Israel. What methods are you talking about? Self-defense?

There is no objective analysis when you equate the two societies.
The means do not justify the end. The Arab-Palestinians leadership under Yasser Arafat chose the path of war and terror instead of negotiations. The Israelis have a right to defend themselves.

Originally Posted by Muslim4Israel2

The anti-semetic thing is used to death

"to death" is more like it- is that a pun?

Anti Semitism exists unfortunately. It exists everywhere and especially in the organization that pretends to be fair and just the all time greatest farce on earth - the US supported ($11 billion annual tax payers' money) and hosted (the heart of New York City)United Nations.

Consider this:

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and
continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our
tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location
in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and
supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and
wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The
vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian
terrorism.

why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the
MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their
Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an
emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While
on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after
9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization
annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the
MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team
to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were
committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And,
by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje
Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no
U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in
U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb
factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the
U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity,
we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present
betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/303588867 )

Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this.
Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly,
it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but
he is very graphic when condemning Israel.
United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman)
PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 06:54 PM

You are quick to dismiss the israeli atrocities as 'defense' it is because of this 'defense' that they are so frequently bombed. They kill innocents as often through the IDF as Hamas does with suicide bombers. If it can be said that the Israelies are defending themsevles against the Palestinians by invading their territory, coming into their homes, arresting people who have commited no crime other than being arab males of certain ages inside refugee camps, and killing civillians, then it can also be said that the Palestinians are defending themselves by attacking into the Israeli state and killing cvillians.

View this as what it is, a war. Each side kills the other but somehow the worldview of the situation (well, American's view of it anyhow) has been shifted to thinking Israel is being attacked for no reason. The Israelies kill Palestinian children with guns and the Palestinians kill Israeli children with bombs, is either any less cruel? The Israelies and the Americans who support them need to get off their high-moral horse.

Batman

05-21-2002, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Nowhere else in the world can atrocities be so overlooked as those committed by the Israelis against the Arabs.

Are you for real? Or is your name Cruelty supposed to indicate that you believe in Cruelty?

Check out the falsehood of your statement: "Nowhere else in the world" - is the United Nations the world???

"atrocities be so overlooked" - did the United Nations even ONCE investigate Palestinian-Arab atrocities against Israelis?

LEARN TO READ BEFORE YOU USE THE CRUELTY OF VAGUENESS TO THE KINDNESS OF CLARITY AND FACTS :

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and
continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our
tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location
in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and
supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and
wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The
vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian
terrorism.

why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the
MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their
Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an
emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While
on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after
9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization
annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the
MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team
to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were
committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And,
by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje
Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no
U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in
U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb
factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the
U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity,
we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present
betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO
INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/303588867 )

Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this.
Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly,
it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but
he is very graphic when condemning Israel.
United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman)
PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

Batman

05-21-2002, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Death to hypocrites

NOW THAT YOU HAVE INTRODUCED DEATH SO CRUELLY DISGUISED AS JUSTICE:

Death to Hitler (he did die) and anyone who follows in his footsteps.

Death to those who die for death culture to thrive (they do die, by their own doing, but they kill innocents and that is WRONG no matter how many excuses are brought out of the irrational minds)

Death to Suicide Bombers Homicidal Maniacs(they do die) because they choose to die and only their mothers (who support death culture) could stop them but instead they egg them on with keys to homes they never possessed.

READ THE FACTS:

The most glaring expression of Arabs' bad faith can be seen in their deplorable treatment of the Palestinian refugees and their refusal of over 1/2 century to relocate them and improve their condition, even while they were under Jordanian rule. While Israel was making the desert bloom and relocating 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab states, and building a thriving industrial democracy in the allotted sliver, the Arabs were busy making sure their 472,000 refugees (WHO FLED THE 1948 WAR PLANNING TO RETURN AFTER THE NEVER TO HAPPEN ARAB VICTORY OF DESTROYING ISRAEL) remain in squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza where they were powerless, have no rights and are economically destitute.

Today, 50 years after the first Arab was against Israel there are 59 such refugee camps and 3.7 million 'refugees" registered with the UN. Despite economic aid from the UN and Israel itself, despite the oil wealth of the Arab kingdoms, the Arab leaders have refused to undertake the efforts that would liberate the refugees from their miserable camps, or to make the economic investment that would alleviate their condition. There are now 22 Arab states providing homes for the same ethnic population, speaking a common Arabic language. But the only one that will allow the Palestinian Arabs to become citizens is Jordan. And the only state the Palestinians covet is Israel.

The refusal to address the condition of the Palestinian refugee population is- and has always been- a calculated Arab policy, intended to keep the Palestinian Arabs in a state of desperation in order to incite their hatred of Israel for the wars to come.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Death to Hitler (he did die) and anyone who follows in his footsteps.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 07:08 PM

16 Killed? tragic no doubt but it pales in comparison to the slayings of HUNDREDS of Palestinian children during the Intifadah uprisings of 1999-2000. Not to mention the massacres that were overseen and supported by Israel at Sabra and Shatilla. I think that the Israeli casualties to terrorists barely match that one incident alone let alone the thousands more killed by israeli phosphorous bombs dropped on Damascus.

Have you not noticed how a much bigger deal is made when 16 israelies are killed than when a few hundred Palestinians are shot by IDF soldiers? You may say they were rioting and they were but does that give you the right to kill them? Tienamin square happens over and over again in Israel.

When a handful of Israelies are killed they respond by obliterating infrastructure of Palestinian settlements with bombs and missiles that will likely never be rebuilt if peace does not come, which it won't with Israel's approach. They press the palestinians further down on the economic ladder than they already are with their bombing of neighborhoods and civillian structures. What, I ask, is the Palestinians only possible response to the killing of their friends neighbors and children? A handfull of suicide bombings killing a shade of the number the IDF does.

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 07:59 PM

You speak of "illegal" palestinian mortars, missiles, and mines, and I am forced to ask, illegal in the eyes of whom? the Israelis? bah. to them it is illegal to be a Palestinian male apparently. To the UN? that has a little more weight, but not enough in my eyes, seeing as it has thus far failed to make these weapons unnessesary for the Palestinians. I would also like to bring up the small matter (in YOUR eyes at least) of the constant shelling by IDF troops of refugee camps, not to mention insignificant helicopter strafing and trifling bulldozer house crushing. Really, if you are going to piss and moan about some illegal palestinian arms, consider for everyones sake exactly what the Israelis are doing that are making these weapons nessesary to the Palestinians. In fact, I'll just tell you why they are nessesary. They are nessesary to oust the facist Israeli military incursions and free the Peoples of Palestine from the crushing Israeli grasp.
Does that satisfy you, or do I have to turn on the Bat-Signal to make it a little more clear???

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 08:39 PM

I see the apologists for terrorists who purposely kill innocent Jewish civilians (e.g., the 5-year old girl recently shot at point blank range for being a "settler") are out in full force.

Cruelty: Good name for a Palestinian supporter! Have you not noticed that the Arabs have been trying to kill people for the crime of being Jewish for many decades? In 1929 (before there was an IDF), Palestinian Arabs massacred the entire Jewish community in Hebron. These were not "settlers," they were inhabitants.

Then during WW II the Mufti of Jerusalem traveled to Berlin in an effort to convince his allies to extend the "final solution" to Palestine.

The UN proposed a partition -- two states for two peoples -- but the Arab response was that they wanted all or nothing. Since 1948, several Arab states have been trying their best to massacre all Israelis.

What annoys you to no end is that Israel has repeatedly given the Arabs the sound thrashing they deserved. Really, Israel's "crime" is defeating Arabs who outmanned and outgunned Israel by a huge margin (often 20:1). On top of that, Israel produces wealth (thanks to the brains and industriousness of her people) while Arabs in neighboring states only seem to produce violence, intolerance, lies, and totalitarianism.

Isolationator: There's not much of substance to respond to in your post. Israel wouldn't be shelling terrorist camps if they weren't sending terrorists to kill civilians. Perhaps you should complain to your beloved Arab brothers who keep Palestinians living in perpetual squalor just to keep the flame burning.

The Big Lie is exposed by the fact that Israel offered the Palestinians a settlement that included 97% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the capital of a Palestinian state (something which, by the way, the Palestinians never demanded of Egypt and Jordan, exposing their phony claim of seeking "national liberation"). The blameless Palestinian response? War and terrorism.

"Death to hypocrites"? I wonder where Muslims who support or even just excuse terrorist attacks on innocents land on the hypocrisy-meter?

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 08:40 PM

One should look at why they left in the first place and the fact THAT they left. Israel was their home THAT is why they covet it. Not because of some deep seated anti-semitic issues. While I am not denying that in all of Hizbollah there is not a single anti-semite to say that they've no claim to the land, and that they attack Israel only because they hate jews is preposterous.

And ask yourself this, Batman do the Arabs in Israel have many more rights than those in the refugee camps? They will tell you themselves, no.

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 08:45 PM

The Arabs in Israel have more rights than Arabs in Arabia.

That's why many Druse and Bedouin Arabs proudly serve in the IDF.

If the Arabs don't stop their evil terrorist attacks against children and elderly, they will have to pack their bags and go back to Arabia.

Try looking at a map of the region. The Arabs have plenty of land. And if Zionists drove Arabs off their land, why are there 1 million Arabs still living in Israel?

The fact is that most of the "refugees" are descendents of people who left at the urging of their Arab brothers, and the rest are pure fakes. Every Arab who lives in the Middle East claims to "own" land inside Israel, but of course they have no papers to prove it.

To paraphrase a famous cinematic scoundrel: "Deeds? We don't need no stinkin' deeds!"

Gatorade

05-21-2002, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty “With peace deals that only hint at what the Palestinians strive for”

Yes, you a right. After Clinton in December of 2000 proposed offering over 90% of the West Bank, Gaza, and part of Jerusalem, Arafat has made it clear that he didn’t want only the creation of a Palestinian state, he wanted all of Israel’s land. By refusing to negotiate, not presenting a counter offer, or ever really presenting any peace proposal offer, and by turning to violence after the proposals that may have not been perfect but did provide a framework for peace, Arafat has shown he does not merely want “occupied terrorities” from the 1967 war.

Originally posted by Cruelty
View this as what it is, a war. Each side kills the other but somehow the worldview of the situation (well, American's view of it anyhow) has been shifted to thinking Israel is being attacked for no reason. The Israelies kill Palestinian children with guns and the Palestinians kill Israeli children with bombs, is either any less cruel? The Israelies and the Americans who support them need to get off their high-moral horse.

You blame Israel for the PA lack of police work. Israel would love it if the PA would arrest suicide bombers and those who planned them. As a result of the PA corruption, the IDF is forced into doing something they don’t enjoy doing. They are forced to go into PA controlled areas and do police work. Moreover,the IDF isn’t a police force. When they enter a hostile environment, it becomes urban warfare more than a police work. Still the IDF does its best to minimize causalities. It is very unfortunate when the IDF makes mistakes. And they aren’t perfect and have made lots of mistakes. But it has never been their policy to target innocent civilians. Meanwhile, the suicide bombers policy is to intentionally target civilians.

No, many American’s view is that that attacks do have a reason. The reason is the Palestinian radicals want all of Israel and not just the creation of a Palestinian state, since they were offered a framework for the creation of a Palestinian state and turned it down and turned to violence.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 08:50 PM

Outgunned? Hardly, American weapons (which are vastly superior to the decrepit soviot era technology the Palestinians are forced to use) are in the hands of every soldier. Ibrodsky, nice racist assumption that jews are inherently better than muslims, btw, since they get funding from America and don't live under oppressive governments. You call me an anti-semite when clearly you are a racist with a deepseated jewish superiority complex.

I never said Muslim governments were perfect, before you attack me for that.

As for my own hypocrisy I do not excuse terrorist attacks. They are tragic, yes, but the terrorist attacks carried out by the IDF are equal in scope, if not more, and they are against a far inferior opponent. Both sides kill innocents. Get off your high moral horse.

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:00 PM

Cruelty: Israel did not receive any military aid from the US until 1973 -- and then only after the Arabs launched a surprise attack.

A fact most Palestinian supporters just can't deal with: tiny Israel produces world class defense systems that are eagerly sought by countries such as China, India, Turkey, etc.

You don't excuse terrorist attacks against Israelis? When you equate Israeli responses to terrorist attacks you are doing just that.

There are no Israelis going to Arab schools, cafes, bus stops, etc. and blowing up unarmed people just to see how many Arabs they can liquidate. But there are Arabs doing this to Jews.

If you aren't a racist, then speak out against racist terrorist attacks on Jewish civilians! To just say it's tragic is no better than giving the terrorists a wink and nod.

The message coming from Palestinian supporters is loud and clear: suicide bombing is tragic -- but has to be done.

Gatorade

05-21-2002, 09:04 PM

Cruelty,

In law intent is very important. You only are viewing things by their outcome. But I agree that both sides do lose innocents and it that is tragic.

You also insinuate that because the Palestinians don’t have the weapons that the IDF does that it explains, or that you understand, why Palestinian leaders would encourage and support suicide bombers. You fail to recognize that the suicide bombers aren’t doing their thing out of desperation. They are doing it to prevent a peace process from going forward.

Meanwhile, Israel has to react and defend itself from making suicide bomber planners thinking that they are going to be appeased. Israel never wants to appease a group that has little regard for human life because Israel believes that would only encourage more threats and violence.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:06 PM

Or do you just watch the videos on Palestinian Television
(sponsored by the US tax payer's money -unbeknownst to them- but with the knowing approval and support of the United Nations) Seeds of Hatred (http://www.mideasttruth.com)

Are not the Palestinian-Arab leaders at fault for all your sufferings?
Will you remain held hostage by their betrayal as they dole out to you $350 per person to commit suicide (Arafat's famous genorosity of all the billions he collected into his Swiss account for many years- Of course, Hussein and the Saudis are much more generous murder supporters - they will give Arab mom and dad $25K for every self- exploding family heir)
But, on the other hand with Arafat you get to be hugged and kissed by the well known terrorist and snake in the grass before you go and explode in the name or 'liberation' from your reality.
Well. If the 'occupation' myth is the story every Arab Palestinian bought from the Arab League of Nations via Arafat - these mideast dictators who established the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964 with him and YET refuse to grant Palestinian-Arabs refuge and citizenship -(except Jordan)- then I see why Palestinains-Arabs want to die and liberate themselves from this dual and quadrupal betrayal. No wonder all the Palestinian-Arabs can do helplessly (and cowardly) is fight the only visible (so called by their brain-washing leadership)'enemy' Israel (who is not really the actual enemy of the Palestinian-Arabs) Because the invisible enemy is their own mother, father and family who bought lock stock and barrel the 'myth' created by the Arab leadership -with Arafat the Egyptian (born in Cairo) at its head. How do you fight everyone else's opinion while you've been raised on that opinion while you are living under a dictatorship where free speech and press is liable to get you killed? I would feel sorry for people like that but unfortunately they would like to follow the leader. Arafat and the Arab dictators hiding behind his skirts-literally- I mean skirts- he is such a BIG coward, sending children to do his fighting for him- hiding behind 6 year olds!!!

The PAlestinian-Arabs have to get smarter, reject this false approach to solving problems or else they'll never win.

When Arafat gives someone the kiss of death does it include a free shopping trip with Arafat's wife at Dior in Paris? How does Arafat get away with keeping his wife in the lap of luxury in Paris? Is it not a transparent situation for the Palestinian-Arabs? He's got lots of money, fame, good lunch invitations (even if some people throw him out occassionally-you can't win 'em all) and basically the Palestinian-Arabs get to kill themeselves and their kids.

I don't get it.

Why don't you get it?

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:06 PM

Palestinians get funding from the EU, the US, and oil rich Arab states. Israel has only one real friend, and many viscious enemies.

Maybe you should try reading the stuff that is spewed from the Arab press, Arab web sites, and their strategic partners: anti-semitic white power groups.

You think Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah aren't racist? They celebrate when teenage Israeli girls are brutally murdered in what they call "martyr" operations.

The IDF does not launch operations to purposely kill Arab teenage girls. But the Palestinians scream "massacre" when their fighters lose in combat they asked for. The Big Lie about a Jenin "massacre" has been exposed by both Human Rights Watch (no friend of Israel's) and the Palestinians, themselves.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:08 PM

The cruel oppression of the Israeli government cannot be stopped by conventional means. Their government is extremist (not as much as the Arab governments but it is extreme nonetheless) their military is formidable, and their people are determined. Much like Nazi Germany, there are a great many comparisons one could make between Israel and Nazi Germany but I wont go into that here.

You are a racist and you have proven that in this thread so far. You are a hypocrite, and you have proven that by calling me a racist. I AM saying that terrorist attacks are tragic but necessary. If the Israeli government did not oppress the Palestinians to such a degree there would be no need for the terrorist attacks.

Another point I will bring up is this; it has nothing to do with the race of Israelis. Were they any other race and performing the same actions they would be treated the same both by the world and by the people they oppress.

You are so quick to call them "responses," they are attacks against people as innocent as those that were killed in the suicide bombing which may or may not have coincided with the "response." Israeli civillians are not the only target of suicide bombers. If you believe they would not trade ten civillian lives for that of one israeli soldier you are mistaken. The Palestinians see the Israeli civillians as soldiers. They march onto their land and set up settlements that serve as outposts and are defended with bullets and bombs. Many Israelis are reservists (not the women and children who are killed and that is deplorable but collateral damage will happen, isn't that what the IDF says?).

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:08 PM

"There's not much of substance to respond to in your post. Israel wouldn't be shelling terrorist camps if they weren't sending terrorists to kill civilians. Perhaps you should complain to your beloved Arab brothers who keep Palestinians living in perpetual squalor just to keep the flame burning. "

Point one: shelling terrorist camps? last time I heard they were shelling civilian centers, and even though many Israeli supporters would just LOVE to think that ALL Palestinians are raving lunatics just itching to detonate at the sight of an Israeli, its almost a shame to shatter such a widely accepted idea (almost). I would tell you that most Palestinians are NOT terrorists, just simple people seeking to live their lives in the way that causes them the least suffering, just like the rest of humanity, huh? funny how that works isn't it?
Point Two: as far as I know, "my beloved arab brothers" as you put it so eloquently *cough* sarcasm *cough* are not keeping Palestinians in perpetual squalor, in fact, I believe that a certain, very intelligent Israeli supporter told me that the so called "squalor" of the refugee camps (if that is indeed what you are referring to) is a myth, so if you think that my beloved arabs are keeping their own people down I think that you should discuss it with him. (BTW, I am not Arab, and Arabs were never my "beloved," I simply cannot fail to support them because I agree with their cause)

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:16 PM

But teenage palestinians are killed nonetheless. Explain that however you like but it happens. Call it "collateral damage", a "tragedy", an "accident" what-have-you but it still happens and any excuse the Israelis could make for it could be made by the Palestinians.

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:17 PM

Cruelty: I never called you a "racist." I said that if you are not a racist then you must speak out against racist attacks against Jews by Arab terrorists. But instead, you have said that terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are necessary.

Your excuse is that purportedly most Israelis are "reservists." Oh yes, the moms and toddlers at Sbarros Pizza must have looked very much like "reservists." And then those 15 and 16 year old girls at the Dolphinarium disco are soooo "reservist."

Perhaps from the gutter it looks like I am on a "moral high horse." But if you can excuse people who purposely shoot a five year old girl at point blank range in her bedroom... there is no chance that that was "collateral" damage.

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:18 PM

I enjoy the idea of an alliance between myself and Cruelty, he seems to be very informed, and beyond that, strong in his assertions and convictions. What say you Cruelty, mutual defense?

---P.S. thanks for the keen idea BATMAN, maybe me and Cruelty and You and Robin can battle sometime and throw a few punches lol *BIFF* *POW* *ZOOT*

Gatorade

05-21-2002, 09:22 PM

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:23 PM

You MUST be able to. You're here aren't you? You can read then I assume. I suggest you go back over my post, read it carefully, aloud if necessary. And try desperately to understand the meaning contained in the very simple words.

I said that many Israelies are reservists, then, very clearly in brackets (obviously not the women and children and that is deplorable) you did not see that or just chose not to care?

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:26 PM

Isolationator: Well, let me set the record straight. The myth about the "refugee" camps is not the squalor -- that is quite real -- it's the notion that they are "refugee" camps.

As Conor Cruise O'Brien explained in his book about the Israeli-Arab conflict, the Arabs call them "refugee camps" simply to win world sympathy by creating images of rows of tents or shacks. The "refugee camps" are really urban areas not all that different from other Palestinian cities.

The "refugee camps" in southern Lebanon would be better called military/terrorist bases. When Christian fighters came to those camps to seek justice against the PLO, which had torn Lebanon apart in a bloody civil war, of course the Palestinians blamed Israel.

If the Arab cause is so just, why do Arabs purposely kill unarmed civilians, spread racist blood libels, glorify suicide terrorists, idolize Osama bin Laden for massacring 3,000 Americans, idolize Saddam Huseein for raping Kuwait, and idolize Syria for its truly illegal occupation of Lebanon?

Hypocrites indeed!

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:31 PM

I said that many Israelies are reservists, then, very clearly in brackets (obviously not the women and children and that is deplorable) you did not see that or just chose not to care?

But you ignore my point: many if not most such attacks are purposely directed at the most defenseless Israelis. Sbarros Pizza and the Dolphinarium were purposely chosen because they were devoid of reservists.

There is no evidence that terrorists are seeking "reservists." Nor do the terrorist groups express anything but joy when they kill people who couldn't possibly be reservists, like the 28 people massacred at a Passover Seder. The goal was clearly to kill Jews for being Jews ... this is what you excuse and support.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Much like Nazi Germany, there are a great many comparisons one could make between Israel and Nazi Germany but I wont go into that here.

Who are you kidding? You just made a big accusation about Israel being like Nazi Germany BUT you won't go there!!!

A joker- well you won't make it as a Stand Up because it's not funny to accuse and not back up anything.

Israel has done nothing to resemble the Nazi regime and you know it. Israel has avoided using German shepherd dogs who can sniff out bombs and save lives because Israel has been so traumatized by the Nazis.

The Palestinian-Arabs have been brainwashed to believe all this crock and kill themselves fighting a ghost enemy.

Israel is not the 'enemy' of the Palestinian-Arabs. Just as the Christians ('infidels' as Osama quotes the Koran)are not the enemy of Islam.

The true enemy of the Palestinian Arabs is their own manipulative and merciless Nazi dictatorship - leadership. This leadership puts fear into the population and brainwashes it all at once.
See for yourself what you should call Nazi barbarism toward your own people
http://www.rootofevil.com/tyranny/default.php?image=5

Who are the real Nazis? Israel has no choice but to defend itself against barbarians and savages.

Either you keep sleeping and being victimized while fighting a non existent enemy you call Israel-
Or you'll wake up with true courage to fight your very very cruel leadership!!!

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:35 PM

"Either you keep sleeping and being victimized while fighting a non existent enemy you call Israel-
Or you'll wake up with true courage to fight your very very cruel leadership!!!"

oh yes, Cruelty must rise up and FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, against his cruel leade-- OH WAIT, CRUELTY LIVES IN AMERICA!!!! next time why dont you read descrips before you go and make such an obvious error hmmmmmmm?

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:36 PM

Arabs kill innocent civillians, yes it's terrible and I apologize for that. However the killing of innocent civillians by Israelis cannot be ignored. You cannot attack the terrorists without also attacking the IDF terrorists for they commit the same crimes. The Israelis are racist as well, or is it a conincidence that only arabs are screened at checkpoints and routinely have their houses bulldozed and are rounded up into pens similar to the operations practiced by Serbian Death Squads.

They idolize Osama because he did what they thought impossible. He struck at America, who gives their mortal enemies the weapons with which to kill them and their children.

They idolize Saddam because he attacked a western style government supported by America, who has become their enemy through long standing support of Israel. Also because he gives money to the families of suicide bombers and to those who have lost children to IDF terrorists (and yes from now on they will always be referred to as terrorists by me as that is precisely what they are).

Syria is occupying Lebanon no more illegally than Israel is occupying Lebanon. While it's occupation cannot be excused you cannot denounce it while defending Israel's occupation of similar land.

You call them christian fighters??? FIGHTERS? Ok from now on Hizbollah and Hamas will be considered Freedom Fighters all right? This is a similar argument to what you are saying. FIGHTERS do not enter refugee camps that are surrounded by Israeli troops and filled with ONLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN and mercilessly slaughter them with long knives over threedays of bloodshed killing all told as many women and children as men women and children were killed in september elleventh.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Isolationator

he seems informed...

How do you know he is not a she? Do you know each other already?

what a coincidence...

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:41 PM

I apologize wholeheartedly for actually Personal Msging Cruelty without telling you batman. I also am sad that your fantastic sleuthing skills are so worn down. Nice try.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Arabs kill innocent civillians, yes it's terrible and I apologize for that.

Trained in PLO school of brainwashing techniques paid for by the US taxpayer money.(unbeknownstly)

How innocently you apologize for the entire Arab world out to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

Well. It's not that simple. You pulled out the knives right afterwards. I hope your audience was paying attention.

If you want a solution tell your leaders to stop brainwashing the population, because you will not succeed in brainwashing
Israel to stop defending itself against your savagery!!!

Israel has been duped once with Oslo and that entire pack of wolves. But now the secret is out: Anti Semitism is alive and well and thriving with Islam/Arafat at its head (and Saudi/Iran under his skirts.Lets not forget to give credit to the UN and EU for their wonderful contribution of perpetuating hatered and violence once more)

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:49 PM

Cruelty: You call them christian fighters??? FIGHTERS? Ok from now on Hizbollah and Hamas will be considered Freedom Fighters all right? This is a similar argument to what you are saying. FIGHTERS do not enter refugee camps that are surrounded by Israeli troops and filled with ONLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN and mercilessly slaughter them with long knives over threedays of bloodshed killing all told as many women and children as men women and children were killed in september elleventh.

This may be the Arab version, but remember, the Arabs love to compare Israel to Nazi Germany who they were allied with -- and they never expressed a whit of remorse for that.

Sorry, but there were armed PLO fighters in those camps and even inquiries that assigned some of the blame to Israel indicated that most of the dead were armed males.

If there were only women and children, as you are so certain, why would it have taken three days to kill them?

And where do you get the preposterous claim that there were as many killed as on 9/11? The casualty figures I saw for the two camps together were in the hundreds, not thousands. (Of course, among the liars the numbers of dead grow geometrically over time, just as the number of Palestinian "refugees" is now approaching an impossible 10 million.)

By the way, I said Christian fighters -- I didn't say "freedom fighters." You suggest I can't read? Maybe you need to read my posts aloud to make sure you get what I am actually saying...

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:53 PM

How many females support terrorism in Palestine from America. It was a logical assumption. Anyhow since you clearly are blind to the numerous trends that place Israel very close to Nazi germany in policy let me detail a few of them for you.

The Zionist forces of Europe were based in Germany in the early thirties and in fact worked with the Nazi party to set up the state of Israel. You could then say that Israel was helped in it's founding by Nazis. Although the Nazis did eventually betray their Zionist allies the fact that they worked together at any time speaks volumes.

Israel invades the homes of Palestinians JUST because they are Palestinians much as Germany invaded the homes of Jews during the early 40's. Israel bulldozes the houses of Palestinians and Germany confiscated all of the possessions of the Jewish households they so cruelly destroyed.

The SS looked for Jews hiding out in population centers much as the IDF looks for Muslims hiding out in population centers. These "suspected terrorists" are taken to IDF bases and tortured to confess and give away their comrades. If they will not confess, some are murdered. This violates MANY Geneva conventions, maybe you hate the UN so much because you can't follow it's rules on human decency hmm?

Israel invades its neighbors and takes their land, settling their and defending it against the indigenous inhabitants and considering them terrorists. Germany invaded their neighbors and settled there and defended them against the Underground forces who, if I am not mistaken, they called terrorists as well. Geroge washington was a terrorist in the eyes of Brittain (but thats off topic) but Americans celebrate him as a hero. Similarly Osama is a terrorist celebrated as a hero by palestinians. He struck at the great empire of America and succeeded, much as Geroge Washington did.

Sabra and Shatilla (although a one time massacre) could easily be compared to Auswitch or any other deathcamp that the jews of Europe were forced to endure.

The Germans saw themselves as a superior race to those around them as clearly Israelis do as well if Ibrodsky's attitude is anything to go by. He is clearly an elitest racist and his views could be construed as Aryan, only with different races.

"The jews made it with nothing while those dirty muslims slept in their own filth and failed." Yes your not a racist...

In addition the entire arab world is aligned against Israel, who is nearly as powerful as all of them combined. This is very similar to how the world was allied against Nazi germany, who was nearly as powerful as all of them combined.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 10:01 PM

First of all the first reporter on the scene was an Israeli one who claimed the casualties were around 2000. The red cross later reported 3000, was this not how many you said died at sept 11? Also, they were women and children only as the men had all left, fearing rightfully so, for their lives, and hoping that the Israelis and Christian Phalangists would not be so cruel as to slaughter women and children, apparently they were wrong. it took 3 days because they were using knives and because their victems hid.

Maybe some of the Arabs were allied with Nazi germany but Palestine in particular was against Germany in both ww1 and ww2. In fact Brittain promised them their independence if they would help against the Axis Powers, of course they didn't realize their independence would be under the yoke of Israeli oppression. The Brittish lied to them and apparently now they are sorry as they attack Israel for their various Human Rights violations quite often.

Also, Batman, you say stop brainwashing muslim children? What do you think CNN is? It is brainwashing, although far more subtle and clever, for the Israeli cause. You will see far more positive comments about Israel and far more negative comments about Palestine on that network. Most media in America is laced with anti-arab propaganda. To accuse the Arabs of being the only ones who brainwash is laughable.

Batman

05-21-2002, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Isolationist

I apologize wholeheartedly .... I am sad...

Get real.

It's not funny when you consider the facts that words of insincere apologies have been the Hall of Fame for Arafat's Terror regime.

How many times did he apologize for his wife's Chanel wardrobe?
I never heard this even once from his kiss-of-death mouth...

Now, why are the Palestinian-Arabs buying into this? I have yet to hear a good explanation that doesn't point a finger at 'Israel' this and 'Israel' that....

Please lets get some real deep truth out of you...

Batman

05-21-2002, 10:44 PM

in response to originally posted by Cruelty: LOL...

As I said: Trained in PLO school of brainwashing techniques paid for by the US taxpayer money-(unbeknownstly)
A breakdown of your brainwashed fabricated arguments-though very willingly brainwashed I believe- because it's hard to go against Arab mommy and daddy (even in the US of A, land of the free you put down so conveniently...)

PLO/Arab lie #1: Never happened: keep twisting information that never existed and you may come up with the same story as Holocaust Denial- Are you almost up to that? Or are you convinced that the Jews were truly systemmatically massacred by the Nazis?
You have a fine by-rote learning skills: and yet you also show potential in imaginations: If I were your PLO instructor I would give you a free subscription to the Suicide Murderer Museum, you know, the one showing the Sbarro Pizza place with the Strewn body parts- oh, yeah, only last month in the civilized town under the Savage PA: But your imaginary stories are conveniently embellished and decorated with your very own swastika and PLO knife - you claim this falsehood as fact as follows:
In response to your:
"The Zionist forces of Europe ... in fact worked with the Nazi party to set up the state of Israel. You could then say that Israel was helped in it's founding by Nazis.Although the Nazis did eventually betray their Zionist allies the fact that they worked together at any time speaks volumes."

Falsehood #2: PLO knife throwing contest of the Suicide Murderers Award goes to...Cruelty, maybe...:
Jews of Europe never acted in violence toward the Nazis. There was no reason to search their homes. If the Nazis were seeking books and Menorahs they found them there. HOWEVER, ISRAEL IS FINDING BOMB FACTORIES AND TUNNELS TO EGYPT AND WAR SHIPS FROM IRAN!!!! Please Pay Attention to this NEW COURSE ON THE FACTS OF THE MID EAST- NOT SPONSORED BY THE PLO PROPAGANDA MACHINE-
In response to your:
"Israel invades the homes of Palestinians JUST because they are Palestinians much as Germany invaded the homes of Jews during the early 40's"

FALSEHOOD #3:Palestinian Authority TRains terrorist from the time they are old enough not to pee in their pants-but actually they do... this is why the IDF is looking everywhere...ABCDEFG...the United Nations has a majority of Islamic Nations running it with Iran supervision and therefore it is only upholding the Arab end of the story and ignoring Arab MASSACRES OF ISRAELI CITIZENS...
In response to your:
"The SS looked for Jews hiding out in population centers much as the IDF looks for Muslims hiding out in population centers.. ..This violates MANY Geneva conventions, maybe you hate the UN so much because you can't follow it's rules on human decency hmm?"

FALSEHOOD #4: go read a regular NON-PLO-SPONSORED HISTORY TEXT BOOK- like in the US library- You need to realize that every war against Israel was started by the Arabs...no matter how much you would like to believe otherwise, these facts are not going away...
In response to your:
"Israel invades its neighbors and takes their land, settling their and defending it against the indigenous inhabitants and considering them terrorists."
fALSEHOOD #5:
You have been totally brainwashed. Washington was a hero. He fought for freedom of religion and free speech from a MONARCHY.
The Palestinian-Arabs are oppressed by dictatorships and lies and brainwashing and unequal rights by their own leadership. This is whom they should fight. Israel would much rather never have anything to do with the Arab-Palestinians. Of course it would have been nice to have achieved peace, but no thanks to these people you celebrate as 'heroes' Why don't you go and join them, maybe be one of Arafat's wives living in Paris? Or one of Osama's 14 wives, you can all share his heroic savagery and dance when the World Trade Center Collapsed and killed innocent people...at the heart of America's most wonderful cities, New York... What a hero, a coward who preys on people who go to work in an office and this is when the Arab mothers pulled out the sweets for their children (soon to go and blow up to follow suit) and celebrations...nice role models you got there...
In response to your:
"Geroge washington was a terrorist in the eyes of Brittain (but thats off topic) but Americans celebrate him as a hero. Similarly Osama is a terrorist celebrated as a hero by palestinians. He struck at the great empire of America and succeeded, much as Geroge Washington did.

FAlshood #6: It's as absurd as Holocaust Denial...you need a refresher course on researching your material...or does the PLO forbid it?
In response to your:
"Sabra and Shatilla (although a one time massacre) could easily be compared to Auswitch or any other deathcamp that the jews of Europe were forced to endure. "

FAlshood #6: Yes. The Jews indoctrination of children supports the belief in non violence as a solving problem technique and that makes Jews better for the world than the Arabs who support suicide murder which is a human rights violation and a disgusting inhumane trait and a curse to the world

But that means that anyone who values life over death is as good as a Jew!!! even if they are not Jewish...Get it??????!!!!!!!
It's a free choice of values and Jews or no Jews can choose these over corruption and cowardly massacres of innocent people which Arabs are doing.
In response to your:
"The Germans saw themselves as a superior race to those around them as clearly Israelis do"

FAlshood #7:
It's lonely at the top.
The world was wrong when it aligned itself with the Nazi extermination of Jews and no one came to help the Jews before 6 million were murdered. No country opened the doors for Jews to escape to and that is how Israel became a land 'for Jews'- not because of racism, but because of this ugly reality of needing a place for Jews cause no one else let Jews in to save their lives!!!
And who made you an authority on how powerful any nation was and is? The PLO Propaganda School? Do they give Internet courses? Can I take some or was this all?

In response to your:
"In addition the entire arab world is aligned against Israel, who is nearly as powerful as all of them combined. This is very similar to how the world was allied against Nazi germany, who was nearly as powerful as all of them combined."

Batman

05-21-2002, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty:

Batman, you say stop brainwashing muslim children? What do you think CNN is? It is brainwashing, although far more subtle and clever, for the Israeli cause. You will see far more positive comments about Israel and far more negative comments about Palestine on that network. Most media in America is laced with anti-arab propaganda. To accuse the Arabs of being the only ones who brainwash is laughable.

NOW I KNOW YOU STUDY PLO PROPAGANDA VERY SKILLFULLY- YOU GET TO DANCE WITH ARAFAT BUT NOT GO TO SHOP WITH HIS WIFE IN PARIS... Oh what a waste of time to fight with shadows...
why don't you confess who you are working for...are you planning to retire as a Palestinian Arab hero (known as a terrorist in the circles of humanity) or do you plan to let him give you the kiss-of-death? Either way, you must do more to expand your mind.
It's pretty transparent...CNN as a likely bait...are you running out of knives and bomb factories??? FAce it, everyone is aware of the Arab role in destroying this world...but why do you live in America if you like the Arab world so much???
If the Arab world is so good for women why is it that the Arab women can vote only IN ISRAEL?

Is that brainwashing or is that a fact you prefer not to think about because it's too much to strain your mind while you are must concentrate on not stepping on Arafat's toes as you dance the dance of death he is leading....

Cruelty

05-22-2002, 04:25 PM

Your arguments are as inconsequential as can be imagined; your grammar also makes me suspect that you are 8-12 years old, your name only strengthens this theory.

You brang up holocaust denial numerous times, I have never once denied the holocaust and you are a fool if you see that in my posts.

I did not go to any PLO school as you jokingly (I think) allege. You want to talk about death of civillians? Compare the number of Arab civillians killed in the last three years to that of Israeli civillians, the difference is staggering. If Arabs are the ones doing all the killing why are they also doing all the dying?

The United Nations is far and away not led by Arab nations. If it were do you think Israel would yet stand? If the UNited Nations hated Israel as much as you say then Israel would be a blackened crater by now. Most of the countries in the United Nations are in Europe, also America and Russia. There are a few Arab countries but they do not hold any sort of majority power. Your attacks against the United Nations, an organization for peace, are both ridiculous and unfounded.

George Washington fought against a Monarchy that was oppressing his people. The Arabs fight against a totalitarian-democracy. A democracy for jews, and a totalitarian state for Arabs. While their own countries may use similar deplorable practices this forum is about Israel, not those countries. If you have some diatribe dealing with them I suggest you post it in the Iran-Bashing forum or what-have-you. Here is the place for criticism of Israel and that is what I am doing. That is why you do not see me criticizing Arab governments, though I have many problems with a great deal of them.

Your claim of "It's lonely at the top" only strengthens the argument that jews are as racist as anti-semites. To call others racist and then make such a blatantly, disgustingly, racist statement yourself is hypocritical.

I never said the Arab world was good for women. But by way of example Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister, has america ever had a female president? Or Israel for that matter? I think not.

The Arabs destroy no world, they attack Israelis who live on land that was theirs before Brittain turned it over to people who hadn't lived there in thousands of years. They attack the soldiers and civillians of a nation that is dead-set on destroying them and invading yet more of their land.

Isolationator

05-22-2002, 07:40 PM

I have noticed that BATMAN has made numerous references to Yasser Arafat's wife, her taste in vacation spots (France, I extrapolate from Bat's post) and her choice in clothing (Chanel, also taken from Batty). I wonder, what bearing does this have on the discussion at hand? If you are trying to make the point that Mrs. Arafat is using Palestinian monies to buy her expensive clothing and vacations I can only tell you this: No woman, no matter how expensive her tastes are, could possibly make a dent in a national budget. I challenge you to prove me wrong on that point. Secondly: there may just be reasons for her tastes (if indeed they are as you say they are). All the trips to France may be to raise popular support for the Palestinian cause, since France is indeed one of the nations in the EU that is sympathetic to Arabs. As for the Expensive Clothing, it may be that since she is the wife to a powerful man, it would be logical for her to appear well off, if only for the sole purpose of keeping up appearances. Even if none of these assumptions of mine are correct, the whole subject has little to do with the current situation. You should stick to more relevant things in your posts.

Vic

05-23-2002, 04:28 AM

Take my word for this please: there are still some sane Frenchmen, Belgians, Scandinavians etc. around, they just don't post in this forum.

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 05:14 AM

What Spain was in '36, Palestine is today. The first bloody stand
against Nazism, transmogrified by the twisted mutations of History, into the first stand against Zionazism.

It is indeed the first bloody stand against 21st century Nazism: militant Islam. The Arabs were allied with Nazi Germany during WW II, and were among the few Nazi supporters to go completely unpunished.

Recall, "LeFrenchman," that occupied France collaborated with the Nazis. Today, France is notorious for a huge wave of anti-semitic attacks. You accuse others of racism, but the following remarks prove you are a racist.

Fueled by traditional Jewish fears and insecurities, by their long-standing persecution complex, it was inevitable that "The Jewish Homeland" would someday lust to commit genocide, albeit slow-genocide, against helpless refugees. Racism stokes their hate, and denial of racism, and the ongoing atrocities perpetrated in the name of "security", fever their shrill hasbara efforts.

First you accuse Jews of Nazism, now you suggest the Nazis did nothing to Europe's Jews -- it was all part of the Jewish "persecution complex."

You would be right at home in Saudi Arabia.

Were Hemingway alive, he'd extol the Palestinian's courageous fight against impossible odds, against a wicked and odious breed of unholy zealots, with every ounce of his power.

I'm not surprised you think you can read a dead man's mind.

When Christ challenged the money-changers, and proclaimed a spiritual vision that embraced all men and women as one, they were so disturbed by the message, they connived to crucify him. Israel is crucifying the Palestinians, and the whole world knows it. Including a growing number of Jews. Individuals more respectful of righteousness, tolerance, and truth, than Jewishness, hatred, and lies.

Christ was crucified by the Romans. The "Palestine" of his day was a Roman colony inhabited primarily by Jews. The Arab imperialists, who came centuries later, admit they have no real ties to the land by calling themselves "Palestinians."

By condemning "Jewishness" you expose yourself as a racist. Israel and the U.S. do not condemn Islam, but a fascist interpretation of Islam that supports death, destruction, and totalitarianism.

I will let your first post stand as a monument to your racist, hateful, anti-semitic ideology. But it will be your last such post if I have anything to say about it.

Unfortunately for you, LeFrenchmen, we Jews will no longer go quietly to the slaughter. I never had an interest in firearms before, but noting the rising number of lower life forms such as you, I insist that my sons learn how to use them.

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 06:08 AM

Palestine was an ENGLISH COLONY at the start of WW2. They were on the side of Brittain, not Germany. As for other Arab countries that isn't really an issue on the Israelforums but you seem to forget that Myanmar, India, and Pakistan (all told some 400 million Muslims amongst those countries) fought Japan in the jungles of Southeast Asia, aided by their Brittish Colonial masters much as Palestine was, and by America.

[Racist comment deleted.] These are some of the same things Nazi Germany did so to claim that the Jews of Israel are somehow better than the Nazis they fled from is erroneous.

Even you must admit that Jews suffer from a persecution complex. While it is understandable seeing as they've been persecuted by the Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Catholic Church, Nazi Germany, the KKK you cannot deny its existance or its influence on Israeli policies.

While the Arabs who came centuries later than Christ claimed no connection to the land do you not think over the course of a thousand years an attachment might occur?

[Racist comment deleted.] He is not condemning being a Jew, but rather acting like a self-pitying, racist, elitist, genocidal Jew.

Mediocrates

05-23-2002, 07:05 AM

You left out the part about how we drink blood and have horns. You'd better draw the minivans in a circle and protect the womenfolk. Yids are a commin to your town.

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 07:38 AM

From "Cruelty"
Palestine was an ENGLISH COLONY at the start of WW2. They were on the side of Brittain, not Germany. As for other Arab countries that isn't really an issue on the Israelforums but you seem to forget that Myanmar, India, and Pakistan (all told some 400 million Muslims amongst those countries) fought Japan in the jungles of Southeast Asia, aided by their Brittish Colonial masters much as Palestine was, and by America.

As a colony, Palestine was not in a position to support anyone. However, the Mufti of Jerusalem spent the last years of WW II in Berlin lobbying his friend Adolph Hitler. Many future Arab leaders were members of Arab fascist parties. Nazi Germany declared the Arabs "non-non-Aryans" in order to exempt them; they enthusiastically supplied the Nazi war machine with most of its oil.

Asian countries fighting Japan have nothing to do with this discussion.

These are some of the same things Nazi Germany did so to claim that the Jews of Israel are somehow better than the Nazis they fled from is erroneous.

You haven't shown any evidence that Israel does what distinguished Nazi Germany. Though Islamicists (followers of militant Islam) dream of doing such things to the Jews. Fortunately, this time we are well armed and trained.

What hypocrisy: You defend "LeFrenchman," but right now there is a wave of anti-semitic attacks taking place in France.

Even you must admit that Jews suffer from a persecution complex. While it is understandable seeing as they've been persecuted by the Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Catholic Church, Nazi Germany, the KKK you cannot deny its existance or its influence on Israeli policies.

A "persecution complex" is a delusion. As you just corroborated, Jews really have been persecuted.

While the Arabs who came centuries later than Christ claimed no connection to the land do you not think over the course of a thousand years an attachment might occur?

Yes, but it doesn't give them the right to exterminate the persistent and not insignificant original inhabitants. Nor does it override the Jewish people's much longer attachment to their homeland.

Palestinian supporters complain about Jews coming to Palestine over the past 100+ years. It is only arrogance that permits you to arbitrarily determine how far back we can go in examining such complaints.

He is not condemning being a Jew, but rather acting like a self-pitying, racist, elitist, genocidal Jew.

Yet I had to delete your own sweeping condemnations of all Jews.

What hypocrisy!

elke

05-23-2002, 07:57 AM

"I never said the Arab world was good for women. But by way of example Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister, has america ever had a female president? Or Israel for that matter? I think not. "

You think wrong. Golda Meir was the Prime Minister of Israel, approximately 20 years prior to Benidzir Bhutto.

Moreover, Israeli citizens, Jewish and Arabic alike, have a vote, whether they are men or women.

As far as grammar is concerned, nobody "brang" anything up: they BROUGHT it up. "Jewish" is supposed to be capitalized. So, please lay off the grammar of others.

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 07:58 AM

from "Cruelty"
"The jews made it with nothing while those dirty muslims slept in their own filth and failed." Yes your not a racist...

The quote you cite appears to be a complete fabrication. Please show us who said this -- other than you. When I search the key words in the quote only your post comes up...

If you imagine you have justice on your side, why do you need to lie?

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 03:34 PM

Interesting...

Three Palestinian supporters show up in this forum: Cruelty, Isolationator, and Frenchman.

All three quickly show that they are racists.

While people who criticize Israel aren't automatically anti-semitic, it seems most of those who are fervent Palestinian supporters are. Particularly those that excuse terrorism as "the only weapon they have available" -- as if killing innocent civilians (incl. children and elderly) is somehow justified when things aren't going your way.

Of course, they try to cover up their support for evil by claiming that Israel also practices "terrorism." Gee, who walked away from peace negotiations and started this war? Who broke their written promise to not initiate violence? Which side preaches killing anyone of the ethmic group they don't like in their schools, media, and houses of worship?

Batman

05-23-2002, 07:52 PM

Yes, I like to think that anyone who sends his wife out to parade with luxurious people while he butchers his own people's children via some ridiculous conspiracy to destroy Israel, needs to be suspected to be not "a powerful man" as you put in so carefully and strategically into your propaganda washed comment, but actually as a master mind for evil!

If you study evil people in history, and I mean Hitler, Nero, Stalin, and an array of dictators who brought the world down to its knees in suffering and atrocities, you can see that their desire for the good of their own people never really was the motivation.
It was always personal power via money, army (war) and killing anyone who disagreed with them. Basically these people look like angels next to Arafat. He's got to get the Nobel Sick prize for diabolical twists on diabolical minds.

When did he dream up this strategy of not nuking his own people like Saddam Hussein but simply tricking them into killing their own children and themselves. If you, Isolationator are ready to blow up your own kid for any reason, then we should not be having this discussion because you and I are on 2 different planets and the 2 shall never meet.

The monster Arafat tells his people to kill themselves - his wife is in silks. Why doesn't she go and wear this suicide bomb belt and prove that she will 'martyr' herself like Arafat wants his people to do. Let her blow herself up for Arafat and his 'cause.' I think the way the EU thinks he will get much more sympathy for his false diabolical cause than if she just continues to have tea in elegant circles, pretending to be a lady of good manners while dripping with blood diamonds...Actually he should do the same, then we may have some peace
It's not Israel that's killing the Palestinians - it's Arafat

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 08:10 PM

NOT A SINGLE COMMENT THAT I MADE THERE COULD BE SEEN AS RACIST, CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH TO BE DELETED. Your censorship is unwarranted and you only used it to make me look like a racist. I challenge you, put the original comments back, if you can remember them, and all will see that you are being a censoring propaganda spewing nazi by denying people access to non-racist comments I made and making it appear as if I had said something bad.

Countries fighting Japan are as much the issue as anything. It is showing that Muslims were on the side of the Allies and not the Axis. I see no proof of these secret meetings that you allege happened in Berlin.

The qoute I made was an exageration of a qoute that someone here made. I used a hyperbole to illustrate a point, that you are indeed as racist as you claim anyone who disagrees with you is. They said something along those lines. Look it up if you wish, it's in this thread.

As a colony Palestine was REQUIRED to support their Colonial masters, Brittain.

About grammar I attacked his because it was barely decipherable, whereas I made two minor mistakes.

The Palestinians did not exterminate anyone. If you will recall Palestinians and Jews lived in peace in Palestine before the Brittish mandate making Israel a jewish state. I believe the majority of Muslims was something like 85% Muslims, 5% Jews, 10% Christians at that time.

About the persecution complex, I said Jews have been persecuted and so they suffer a persecution complex. It is fully logical and it is not contradictory. They are paranoid of being persecuted and yet they persecute others.

About Israeli terrorism. They kill innocent civillians do they not? Any answer to that other than a resounding yes is a bold-faced lie. Is killing innocent civillians with military or para-military force not what terrorism is? The answer is yes again. I will ask you this; which side is occupying the others land and has been for the last fifty years?

Batman

05-23-2002, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Compare the number of Arab civillians killed in the last three years to that of Israeli civillians, the difference is staggering. If Arabs are the ones doing all the killing why are they also doing all the dying?

PLO propagnda trainee or future leader of death squads...
you choose...
Because you compare apples with oranges... (Israel has wonderful oranges which they grew out of sand...with their bare hard work, Israel is productive and constructive, the Arabs who do not want Israel around are simply a bunch of jealous and depressed people, hostile toward Israel because they do not value how great it is to have a positive open and free society in the middle east.)
Back to apples and oranges which you must learn to stop comparing if you will break out of the PLO school of propaganda and become a free Arab thinker . You may have to give up the cause but you may find out you've got courage to think independently of your unfortunate background.

the apples: Israel has 5 million Jews
the oranges: Arabs have 100,000 million Arabs
the apples: Israel is smaller than New Jersey
The oranges: the Arabs have 22 vast countries
the apples: Israelis who were born in Israel before 1948 are also Palestinians.
the oranges: Palestinians-Arabs who were born in Israel are Palestinian-Arabs. They are Arabs who were born in Palestine.(Arafat was born in Egypt- he has no rights to anything! He's just an opportunist picked by the Arab League of Nations to use the Palestinian society's anguish which was cynically planned AND pre calculated so they will fight against Israel-Palestinians have been programmed by Arab leaders to fight the war against Israel. The reason the Palestinians don't get it, how they are being used is because they are being USED , it's a catch 22.

Check for yourself, you will see the facts if you want to, but if you are beyond repair and totally gone on PLO propaganda go ahead and be a slave, why should I try to save you from allowing your brain to rot on rotten and twisted info created by the diabolical mind of Arafat and his thugs...

In 1948 472,000 Palestinian Arabs fled Israel because the Arabs attacked Israel and these Palestinian-Arabs were planning to return "once the Jews are pushed to the sea"
Now suddenly they number 3.5 million refugees.

Why is it that 600,000 Jews from Arab countries had to flee and were resettled in the tiny land of Israel and 472,000Palestinian Arabs were left to suffer and were refused acceptance, support, resettlement and citizenship from the 22 Arab countries with whom they share a language and religion and family ties?

You know Cruelty, you guys are cruel to yourselves more than you know...those 22 Arab countries should be discussed on Israel Forum because they are GUILTY old men in skirts who have no respect for women,children, human beings, and they like to deflect the attention by using Israel...think about it

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 08:31 PM

100 Million arabs where did you get this number? Thats far more Arabs than are in Palestine and it is far far less than the billion arabs that live in those 22 "vast" (most the size of New York or smaller) countries.

You are trying to save me? How sweet, a pity your misguided views and propaganda laced hypocritical arguments will sway not even the most light-hearted arab supporter, let alone one as staunch as myself.

NewsGuy

05-23-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
Is killing innocent civillians with military or para-military force not what terrorism is? The answer is yes again. I will ask you this; which side is occupying the others land and has been for the last fifty years?
First of all, calm down "cruelty." Take a deep breath, exhale, repeat a few dozen times. You'll feel much better.

As for your definition of terrorism, it is utterly and completely wrong. The fact that civilians are killed inadvertently in a military self-defense operation is tragic, but does not amount to terrorism. That's a fact.

Terrorism is when civilians are targeted for violence. For example, when the Islamic terrorists mass murdered 3,000 Americans on 9-11, it was deliberately targeting civilians and therefore terrorism.

When your Arab friends pack a bomb full of nails and shrapnel and detonate it in a pizza store or in a shopping mall, then that is terrorism.

But when Israel and the U.S. target armed militants who commit these attrocities against Israeli and American civilians, then that is a legitimate act of self-defense, even if a handful of civilians are killed inadvertently. Same in Afghanistan and same in Arafatistan.

You should do some soul searching and ask yourself why in the world you would possibly attempt to apologize for mass murderers who deliberately target Israeli children or bomb synagogues.

As for who is occupying whom for 50 years, it is the Arabs who have attempted to conduct a Jihad-genocide of Israelis and of Jews in other countries. Actually, it has gone on for more than 100 years.

I know it upsets you to think that Israel (and probably the U.S.) has a right to fight back against those who attempt to massacre us daily, but all I can say is that I am sorry that survival of Israelis and Americans is not to your liking.

Too bad, "cruelty" that you represent the cruelty of Arab mass murderers and racists bent on destroying Western civilization.

Batman

05-23-2002, 08:33 PM

Staunch
Stanch
Stench

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 08:39 PM

You are the aggressors, the Palestinians are defending themselves. Daily they are forced to endure all the depredations that being oppressed by one's enemy entails. The Palestinians weapons are suicide bombers, Israels are planes, tanks, and bombs. Israel bombs civillian centers, you cannot say with a straight face that deliberately bombing civillian areas with little to no regard for the people living there is not terrorism. They are targetting civillians and you cannot deny that. America does not do the same things Israel does, I have never called Americans terrorists so do not bring America's self-defense into this as I did not bring it up

Israel targets civillians with their riot police who aim for the head and with their planes that aim for civillian residences as surely as Hamas does with it's suicide bombers who aim for restaraunts.

Edit: ROFL BATMAN, Staunch means strong, determined, steadfast. Learn some English you bloody invalid.

Skogan

05-23-2002, 08:57 PM

To cruelty:

Do you agree with the principle that intentionally targeting civilian non-combatants is both a terrorist act and wrong?

For some reason, many of the pro-arab supporters don't make that distinction. A suicide bomber is a terrorist not becuase civillians happened to die, but because their whole objective was to kill them. If they were attacking the military or its instillations, and civilian deaths were an unfortunate consequence, it would be difficult to label them as a terrorist. They would simply be enemies of Israel, which according to your view, is either a good or bad thing.

If israel has killed civilian non-combatants, not as collateral damage, but intentionally as an end into itself, that would be wrong also. That much I readily conceed.

A suicide bomber may be the palestinians only weapon, but they have many possible targets. When they chose to purposely kill civilians, as their primary target, not as collateral damage, they lose the right to simply be called a freedom fighter. They are terrorist. It is uneccessary and wrong.

Skogan

Batman

05-23-2002, 09:15 PM

Eat your own words, you might end up giving birth to an original thought when you get indigestion and ...you can figure out the rest...you are used to bloody this and than some...keep up the GRAMMAR angle, I am enjoying it tremendously, LOL

Isolationator

05-23-2002, 10:23 PM

First order of business: Could someone please tell me what Cruelty said that was so horrible that it had to be censored? I personally am against censorship, but if I knew the story maybe I would understand.

Second order of business: I personally have seen the so called "persecution complex" in action in this forum, and it goes something like this. (example, not a quote) "Jews have been killed and opressed by many peoples and governments throughout history." While I totally agree with that statement, there is more to my example. "Because Jews were so persecuted, they need a land of their own to be free from said persecution." This also makes sense, but, there is yet more. "Jewish historical ties to Palestine mean that Jews should be able to live in Palestine, set up their own government which is opressive to the current residents of Palestine, and use the pretense of defense against said residents of said country to indescriminately kill civilians." THIS IS NOT A LOGICAL STATEMENT TO MAKE!!!! While the first two were perfectly acceptable in my mind, the last IS NOT. Even so, the last statement seems to be exactly the type of thing that several Israel supporters are saying in this forum! These Israel backers seem to reason like this:

Jews have been persecuted -> Jews need their own land so they are not persecuted -> Given 2000 year old historical ties, Jews should make their government in Palestine -> It is alright for this govenment to kill the previous residents of Palestine, because they do not like our government and how it kills them

It is exactly this kind of twisted logic that the whole "persecution complex" rests on. *note* IN NO WAY am I doubting that Jews have been persecuted. I am saying that this does not make what they are doing right.

Third order of business: I strongly resent being called a racist. My arguments are with the Israeli government, and not with the jewish religion in general. I have several jewish friends and i respect their religion very much. In no way do i have a problem with the Jewish faith, or any others.

Fourth order of business: BATMAN, your ineffective reply to my post about your ineffective Mrs. Arafat bashing was INEFFECTIVE. You claim that Yasser Arafat is not a "powerful man" but "a Master mind for evil!" whether or not Mr. Arafat is evil (thats everyones call, not mine although I think he is not) he IS powerful, and if you contest that then you also have to contest every political leader in the ME. Keep in mind that Hitler, while undoubtedly evil, was also extremely powerful, to the point of near world domination. I do no know how you camp up with Saddam Hussein's plot for nuking his own people, thats simply foolish. I also do not know where you camp up with the idea of me "blowing up my kid," thats just as silly as Saddam nuking Iraq. Just because I have a different viewpoint than you, does not mean I am not civilized. I think that suicide bombing is tragic, but it is also one of the most effective weapons available to Palestinians right now. If Palestinians could get a Death Ray or some other fanciful weapon I am sure that they would use that to wage war instead of Suicide Bombers. As to Mrs. Arafat claiming Martyrhood, I don't think she ever pretended to do that. Also, the whole point of my previous post is that yes, she does go to the EU to raise support, I never denied that, nor should I, raising support for your cause is done everywhere and for every cause, why not for Palestine as well?

Fifth order of business: "Israel is productive and constructive, the Arabs who do not want Israel around are simply a bunch of jealous and depressed people, hostile toward Israel because they do not value how great it is to have a positive open and free society in the middle east ." This is a perfect example of the racism that myself and Cruelty are so wrongly accused of, why not censor this Administrators? I notice no Pro-Israel statements have been censored, while Cruelty, a very intelligent and well spoken Palestine supporter have been the only one censored thus far (I fear that I am next)

Final order of business: EVERYONE CUT OUT THE PLO BRAINWASHING CRACKS!!!!!! They are really annoying and totally unfounded. Again, just because I am different does not mean I am Brainwashed

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Isolationator
First order of business: Could someone please tell me what Cruelty said that was so horrible that it had to be censored? I personally am against censorship, but if I knew the story maybe I would understand.

Cruelty made two racist comments. In the first, he labeled Jews as Nazis. In the second, he described genocide as a "Jewish practice." These were blanket statements.

I have saved the original post. If necessary to prove these were racist comments, I'll repost them.

Third order of business: I strongly resent being called a racist. My arguments are with the Israeli government, and not with the jewish religion in general. I have several jewish friends and i respect their religion very much. In no way do i have a problem with the Jewish faith, or any others.

You are right. I should not have lumped you with Cruelty and Le Frenchman. I reviewed your posts and there is not a trace of racism. I sincerely apologize.

ibrodsky

05-24-2002, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Cruelty
NOT A SINGLE COMMENT THAT I MADE THERE COULD BE SEEN AS RACIST, CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH TO BE DELETED. Your censorship is unwarranted and you only used it to make me look like a racist. I challenge you, put the original comments back, if you can remember them, and all will see that you are being a censoring propaganda spewing nazi by denying people access to non-racist comments I made and making it appear as if I had said something bad.

Well, if I said Arabs are Nazis and "self-pity, racism, elitism, and genocide" are Muslim practices, would I be a racist?

Countries fighting Japan are as much the issue as anything. It is showing that Muslims were on the side of the Allies and not the Axis. I see no proof of these secret meetings that you allege happened in Berlin.

I said several Arab countries supported Nazi Germany. The fact that Asian Muslims did not want to be enslaved by Japan does not absolve Arab countries for supporting Nazi Germany.

Who said the meetings between the Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolph Hitler were "secret"? They are well documented and I can provide photographs of the Mufti with Hitler, plus the Mufti "reviewing" Axis troops.

The qoute I made was an exageration of a qoute that someone here made. I used a hyperbole to illustrate a point, that you are indeed as racist as you claim anyone who disagrees with you is. They said something along those lines. Look it up if you wish, it's in this thread.

You apparently think it is OK to change other peoples' words and then attribute your fabricated statements to them.

elke

05-24-2002, 07:53 AM

("Jewish historical ties to Palestine mean that Jews should be able to live in Palestine, set up their own government which is opressive to the current residents of Palestine, and use the pretense of defense against said residents of said country to indescriminately kill civilians." THIS IS NOT A LOGICAL STATEMENT TO MAKE!!!!

"Jewish historical ties to Palestine mean that Jews should be able to live in Palestine, set up their own government, and defend its citizens from murderous terrorists" - that's the way the argument actually goes, in reality.

Cruelty

05-24-2002, 09:47 AM

What I said "The Jewish practices of genocide, elitism, racism..." implied only that I was speaking particularly of those transgressions as committed by Jews. I was not saying that they were uniquely Jewish principles and I was not saying all Jews practice them. I said that the Israelis are Nazis because they perform many of the same actions that the Nazis did. It is not a racist comment to compare two cultures, even if you disagree with that comparison. I find it funny that my post was censored by my number one detractor, this shows just what kind of "Democracy" Israeli supporters believe in. Freespeech for those who agree with us... There is another facist practice that you have exhibited.

You said: "Well, if I said Arabs are Nazis and "self-pity, racism, elitism, and genocide" are Muslim practices, would I be a racist?"

That is exactly the sort of things supporters of Israel DO call arabs and if you made that statement saying all Arabs were that way then that would be racist. If you wanted to, for instance, put Hizbollah into that category that would be fine but for the most part I see broad sweeping Arab bashing on this forum. Accusing ALL arabs of teaching their children to kill themselves, being anti-Semitical, and supporting Nazi Germany (which I proved false with my examples of Arabs not supporting the Nazis but you dismissed those examples and went on to say all Arabs were against the allies). When you say "the arabs" that means all of them, do not deny a true statement that proves you wrong just because it makes you look bad.

I do not think it is ok to change peoples words that is why I gave no name for the qoute. I was merely presenting what the mood of the pro-Israel community seems to be here. On that note Ibrodsky changed my words in blatant censorship of something not even racist. Even if it were racist, you don't censor the racism spewed by the Arab-hating Israeli supporters on this forum so why for the Arab Supporters?

Lastly, Batman why do you even read these forums? Clearly it strains your brain and your pathetic arguments only hurt the cause of your intelligent and eloquent (for the most part) comrades. I mentioned that your grammar was atrocious ONCE and that was a truer statement than any that could be made. You have since jumped on that comment, as you obviously do not possess the wit to take a crack at my political views, and have still not even made a single valid point against me with that method. I encourage you to leave the forums before you make a further ass of yourself. Find consolation in your morning cartoons, learn some English, learn some politics, and maybe in 5 years return here; by that time hopefully groomed enough to carry on a conversation.

Iori Yagami

05-24-2002, 10:10 AM

It is funny that you can`t even stand behind your own words.

ibrodsky

05-24-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
What I said "The Jewish practices of genocide, elitism, racism..." implied only that I was speaking particularly of those transgressions as committed by Jews. I was not saying that they were uniquely Jewish principles and I was not saying all Jews practice them. I said that the Israelis are Nazis because they perform many of the same actions that the Nazis did. It is not a racist comment to compare two cultures, even if you disagree with that comparison. I find it funny that my post was censored by my number one detractor, this shows just what kind of "Democracy" Israeli supporters believe in. Freespeech for those who agree with us... There is another facist practice that you have exhibited.

You called genocide a "Jewish practice" and accused Jews of being Nazis. There was nothing in the deleted statements to indicate you were only referring to particular Jews or Israelis.

No one has prevented you from expressing your opinions. But IsraelForum is not obligated to assist your effort to slander the Jewish people.

You said: "Well, if I said Arabs are Nazis and "self-pity, racism, elitism, and genocide" are Muslim practices, would I be a racist?"

That is exactly the sort of things supporters of Israel DO call arabs and if you made that statement saying all Arabs were that way then that would be racist.

I'm glad you agree that statement is racist. Now, replace "Arabs" with "Jews" and "Muslim" with "Jewish" and you have the essence of your own deleted statements.

If you wanted to, for instance, put Hizbollah into that category that would be fine but for the most part I see broad sweeping Arab bashing on this forum. Accusing ALL arabs of teaching their children to kill themselves, being anti-Semitical, and supporting Nazi Germany (which I proved false with my examples of Arabs not supporting the Nazis but you dismissed those examples and went on to say all Arabs were against the allies). When you say "the arabs" that means all of them, do not deny a true statement that proves you wrong just because it makes you look bad.

No one said "all Arabs." No one said suicide bombing is a "Muslim practice." No one said you can't criticize or even accuse Jews in general. But that doesn't give you license to slander.

Accusing Jews of being Nazis is a cruel and sick joke invented by Israel's enemies. Jews do not operate work camps and gas chambers. Israel does not teach its children that Arabs are an inferior race to be subjugated and slaughtered. Israel is not trying to conquer the Middle East.

If you had ancestors, as I and others here do, who were systematically slaughtered by the Nazis, you would not make such hateful comments. I once had a neighbor who was a Nazi concentration camp survivor. She was forced by the Nazis to watch her parents being burned alive. The Nazis delighted in watching their victims suffer and even performed horrendous "medical experiments" on them. To say Jews are Nazis is to suggest that Jews are doing this sort of thing today, which is a big fat lie.

I do not think it is ok to change peoples words that is why I gave no name for the qoute. I was merely presenting what the mood of the pro-Israel community seems to be here. On that note Ibrodsky changed my words in blatant censorship of something not even racist. Even if it were racist, you don't censor the racism spewed by the Arab-hating Israeli supporters on this forum so why for the Arab Supporters?

To invent hateful and racist remarks and then present that as a quote is dishonest. You weren't trying to illustrate the pro-Israel view, you were purposely distorting it in a cheap attempt at impugning your opponents.

Pathfinder

05-24-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
I said Jews have been persecuted and so they suffer a persecution complex. It is fully logical and it is not contradictory. They are paranoid of being persecuted and yet they persecute others.

About Israeli terrorism. They kill innocent civillians do they not? Any answer to that other than a resounding yes is a bold-faced lie. Is killing innocent civillians with military or para-military force not what terrorism is? The answer is yes again.

Define persecute and support your allegation. You are like Takeo and others here that focus on small facts, take them out of context and use them to define broad, totally unsupported accusations and generalities.

As for terrorism, the answer to your last question is no. You again take facts out of context to create your own false definitions. It is your effort to create the illusion that the efforts of the IDF to defend itself from evil is the same as that evil.

Imagine a police officer who rescues a group of women and children being murdered by a criminal. In the process of the rescue one of the children is accidently shot and killed along with the criminal. Is the policeman now a murderer like the criminal? That is the exact logic of moral equivalence you are using. You say intentional killing of women and children is no different than accidental killing.

Bottom line is I don't think you believe your own arguement. Like many others here like Takeo, reason, logic and facts do not conform to your views so you resort to unsupported allegations, changing of definitions, and twisting of logic.