Anti-Semitism or Criticism of Israel? [Archive]

Flame

04-06-2002, 12:33 PM

But the Jews living in Israel have the facts to make their opinions with.

Do you ever see people go after Chinese people in America about China's politics? Do you see American's go after blacks individually because they disagree with jackson or farakan? When people discuss the priests that molest children and critize the vatican... no one ever feels like non-Catholics are bashing them personally... but criticizing Isreal usually is about not just the Jews of Israel but extends to disporia.

When the 2 IDF were slaughtered and the pals threw out their blood-covered hands in that photo... I was at a cafe at the moment unaware of the situation... this little nazi working there started screaming at me as if I was personally responcible... you murderer you're all murderers... it didn't seem to matter to him that it was the Jews who were slaughtered.

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

If in fact the Israel bashers criticsim was based on actual facts and not from propaganda, lies and distrotions, then fine... but all the conversations I hear sound more like pure Jew hate. Sorry to dissagree.

The arab world is one giant sea of Jew hate... if the focus was on their own dictators within their own nations, and not about Israel... do you think there would even be a reason for mass criticism of Israel? In all the talk I hear of Israel bashing... I not only hear silence about the crimes committed by arabs... but these people seem to feel that to say anything about the terrorists is a smear against islam and arabs... how can you have it both ways?

99% of arabs in the arab world have never met a Jew or been to Israel. And yet, Jerusalem is there's and the evil Jews are humiliating them.

As that old Jew jesus is noted as saying... those who are free of sin can cast the first stone... something like that.

Gatorade

04-06-2002, 01:22 PM

I am not that informed about all this stuff but here is how I see it.

I think a distinction could be made between anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, and anti-Zionist.

Israel is a nation.
Zionism - not really sure what to make of it yet(still reading about it) but see it as a movement or idealogy
Jews are a people.

People can talk negatively about Israel and not be anti-Semitic. And many people who are anti-Semitic are against Israel but there is a distinciton in my mind.

If people over use the term anti-Semitic, it will lose its weight when it really is the case.

L@mplighterM

04-06-2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Flame

When the 2 IDF were slaughtered and the pals threw out their blood-covered hands in that photo... I was at a cafe at the moment unaware of the situation... this little nazi working there started screaming at me as if I was personally responcible... you murderer you're all murderers... it didn't seem to matter to him that it was the Jews who were slaughtered.

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

I recalled that incident very well and I was outraged when I watched soldiers being slaughtered (during or the aftermath can’t recall which) in the footage on CNN.

As I write now in the present the world is increasing its momentum with anti Israeli sentiment all the way from southern to the northern hemisphere. Israeli flags are being spat at in Australia and boycotts are being considered in Scandinavia. Never before in my living memory have I ever witnessed such outrage against Israel in so many nations.

I personally witnessed pro Palestinian persons handing out (perhaps selling them I was driving) newspapers. I saw the headline as I was stopped at a light (STOP ISRAEL).

There could only be ONE reason for this and that is that Israel has lost the war on words. I know that people have a short memory and can be manipulated like putty but this is not a positive sign for Israel. This time Israel has played right into the hands of Arafat he sits there and cries and the world jumps to is aid.

cerulean

04-06-2002, 05:05 PM

It may be theoretically possible to oppose Israel and not be anti-Semitic, but I'm not sure it ever happens in practice.

One exception would be those ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups (such as the Satmer sect) that have the sincere belief that the founding of modern Israel was wrong (for various complex religious reasons that I would have to research again to make sure I was representing properly). I don't think they are anti-Semitic.

L@mplighterM

04-06-2002, 06:22 PM

Interesting concept what are you a defense lawyer looking for a loophole or something?

Let’s say that you were colored and you hated yourself. Would you be a racist? My answer would be no.

What if you were a mulatto and you hated whites? Would you only be half racist? I’m not smart enough to answer that question.
What if you were ¼ white or 1/8th white? What then?

Back to your question could you oppose Israel and not be anti-Semitic?

If you were referring to the present I would say that you would not be anti-Semitic if you were a Jew that opposed Israel.

You would be a Jew that opposed Israel.

muslim4israel2

04-07-2002, 03:53 PM

I criticise Israel incursions into Palestinian areas, I criticise Israel human rights abuses. But I'm not anti Israeli, or anti Jewish. I criticise Palestinain terror attacks, but I'm not anti Palestine.

Theres wrong on both sides, Israel is the regional power, and thus in the commanding position-thus gets the rap.

I'm just an objective analyst, who recognises Israels right to safety but criticises the methods.

The anti-semetic thing is used to death.

General X

04-16-2002, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Flame

Why are the message boards so overwhelingly filled with Israel bashers and never a peep about any other nation? There is plenty of things to be outraged about around the globe.

99% of arabs in the arab world have never met a Jew or been to Israel. And yet, Jerusalem is there's and the evil Jews are humiliating them.

As that old Jew jesus is noted as saying... those who are free of sin can cast the first stone... something like that.

Remember, though I wholeheartedly agree with you, that only about 70% of Arabs actually CAN go. Some are too old, too young, disabled, prohibited by law, can't afford to travel out of their Arab holes, etc.

The message boards question you had? That one is easy. Clearly, the forums are meant for discussion about Israel; though it is possible for it to be discussed, the primary focus is not on China, Russia, Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Ukraine, Taiwan, Indonesia... and other countries. If a country relates to Israel, such as anti-semetic demonstrations occuring there and such, then it is bound to come up somewhere in the forums. So that is why the Israel bashers do their Israel bashing here, and not China bashers doing their China bashing. Of course, there is no problem with bringing up issues dealing with China to illustrate the hypocrtiscm, but most see that the intent of the forums was to discuss topics more pertinent to Israel. I agree with you, though, that china has a much worse Human Rights Record, and their army is known for brutalizing Buddhists and the Taiwanians. Israel is under scrutiny because of it's strategic and diplomatic location in relation to the enemies (and so-called friends) of the United States, and the oil producing axis. Europe has interests there as well. They figure, let the Chinese do whatever they want... it doesn't affect us so who gives a damn. It's not right, but that's human nature, although human nature does not give them an excuse for being so irrational. I hope I have sufficiently covered the question about the message boards, and I usually agree with you.

PS. Everyone: Watch Alan Keyes, he really does make sense, has an entertaining show, you KNOW he's a nice guy, and he knows Israel is behaving justly, or just as justly as any other nation.

Mediocrates

04-22-2002, 11:45 AM

Here's what I believe:

NEVER forget you are a Jew. No one else will.

Vic

04-23-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by NewsGuy
This topic seems to come up often in many discussions.
Many Jews perceive most anti-Israel views as being based not on political opinions, but on underlying anti-Semitism in general.

What do you think?

Basically it's not the criticism as such, but the manner of it. Too aggressive, too joyous, too irrational. It just stinks. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that the Palestinians are real and not a modern-day version of the bloody matzohs. In my experience even Jews unconcerned with the Middle East issues tend to recognize the emotions underlying this "criticism", the trouble is that nobody seems to know how to deal with them. Trying to find some nice, easily recognizable, "logical" distinctions (yes, you can criticise this, but not that; yes, this term is legitimate, but please don't use that expression; etc.) is a waste of time. One can only trust one's own instincts. No amount of information materials, no efforts invested in hasbara campaigns would ever achieve the even the tiniest positive effect, because in the Western world "criticizing Israel" is simply a matter of having great fun.

Mediocrates

04-23-2002, 12:18 PM

Never. While you may not know if the person you're speaking to is merely criticizing Israel or is some crypto anti Semite, who cares? Why give that person an entre? Why be coopted? Most of the literate world and large parts of the illiterate world wants to spit on the graves of all Jews. Why grace them with a cooperative discussion? There's plenty of support around for the Jew haters so they don't need mine.

Eventually we can all go back to being good old school socialist zionists and plant trees and dance. Right now the time is to be radical and pick up a gun.

Mediocrates

04-23-2002, 12:19 PM

They can kill me or they can try.

sharonbn

04-24-2002, 06:41 AM

What about Israelis who condemn Israeli actions? (like the soldiers who refuse to serve in the occupied territories)

Are they anti-semitic?

Mediocrates

04-24-2002, 09:26 AM

No. That's just dereliction of duty. It might be for a cause of concience but it's still dereliction of duty. Armies are not democracies and persons who enact civil disobedience should be prepared for the inevitable consequences of their own actions.

Though I wonder how many suicide bombers in waiting who have a change of heart are simply dissappeared instead of cited for disciplinary action?

ibrodsky

04-24-2002, 03:23 PM

Since a quote from me started this thread...

Of course it's possible to criticize Israel and not be anti-semitic. Reasonable people may disagree about policies. Many people are swayed by the media or what seems to be the most popular view; they base their opinions on what they believe is common knowledge.

The point of my original statement was not that everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semitic. My point was that anti-semites are having a field day because Israel-bashing is "in." They can bash all they want, and if any of us complain that they are anti-semitic, we get that little lecture about how you can't dismiss all criticism of Israel as anti-semitism.

My conclusion is that we face a very tough PR battle. It would be one thing to simply deal with those who disagree with Israel's policies -- or even those who have some of the basic facts wrong. But there is an army of anti-semites always at the ready to exaggerate Israel's misdeeds, excuse the Palestinians crimes, and echo the Big Lies.

As Ariel Sharon said after the Seder massacre, he received many calls from world leaders who were anxious to find out whether Arafat was confined to two rooms or three, but did not ask about the fate of the terrorist attack victims.

I doubt most of these leaders are anti-semitic. I think they are simply swept up by the fact that Israel-bashing and sympathy for Palestinians are popular among their constituents. What makes it all pernicious is that these people are too lazy to make sure they really have the facts, and they are willing to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with anti-semites as long as the anti-semites are not too open or blatant.

Actually, this is analogous to what happened during WWII. I doubt that most Germans wanted to exterminate Europe's Jews. But they were swept up in the popular notion that Jews were at least partly responsible for Germany's problems. No doubt, many thought that just because you criticize Jews does not mean that you are aiming to wipe them out.

My conclusion: those who criticize Israel and who are not anti-semitic are morally obligated to ensure that their criticisms are not used by anti-semites. Clearly, European govts are critical of the Israeli govt, and anti-semites think this means it's OK (wink, wink) to attack Jews and synagogues .

The best example of this are those who are soft on terrorism. Whether they intend it or not, by excusing the Palestinians ("What else can they do? -- they don't have tanks") they are encouraging terrorist attacks against defenseless civilians.

Mediocrates

04-24-2002, 06:27 PM

I originally wrote something about a common front and disloyalty and about how any minority needs to present an uncrackable public persona. But I crossed it out. Here's what I want to say. It's fine for Jews and Israelis generally to voice concern and disapproval with the current policies. I welcome all of the opinions even if I hate some of them and believe that they are treason. The test of any open society is its ability to withstand criticism from within.

Vic

05-14-2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Mediocrates
Though I wonder how many suicide bombers in waiting who have a change of heart are simply dissappeared instead of cited for disciplinary action?
Neither one nor the the other to judge by this article:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?011119fa_FACT1
But it is probably a bit old by now

Cruelty

05-19-2002, 12:20 AM

There is a very distinct difference between anti-Semitic opinions and anti-Israeli opinions. The reason these two are often confused is simple: Namely that the supporters of Israel use it as a defense. When someone claims that you are being anti-Semitic your argument is instantly shattered (in America at least) it is the best defense they can think of to avoid criticism of their beloved Israeli state. The difference can be best illustrated with an analogous situation. If you were to criticize the Spanish Inquisition would that make you anti-Christian? No, the idea is preposterous, and so it should be with Israel.

To criticize a nation with a poor human rights record (to be kind) does not necessarily mean you hate all people who are of the same religious background. To use the pathetic defense that any who criticize Israel hate Jews and are no better than Nazis is both childish and laughable.

It has been said that honest critics of Israel and anti-Semites stand shoulder to shoulder in their criticism of Israel. While certainly some anti-Semites align themselves with critics of Israel the anti-Israeli viewpoint cannot be dismissed as racist. There are a GREAT deal of valid complaints one could make concerning the legitimacy of the Israeli state, their policies regarding the Palestinian Authority, the practices of the IDF and the Mossad, and the construction of Jewish settlements on Palestinian land.

I would offer the alternative viewpoint that the Israelis and to a lesser extent Americans are anti-Arab. Nowhere else in the world can atrocities be so overlooked as those committed by the Israelis against the Arabs. Countries like China and WWII era Germany were either fought against or threatened with sanctions. For similar atrocities what faces Israel? Nothing but more military aid. Israel is no third world nation that cannot defend itself against foreign aggressors. They are occupying the land of those who attack them and they possess the capabilities to easily repulse attacks from surrounding countries. Yet still they are the number one recipient of US military aid.

Israel stands in the Middle East as one of the most potent and effective militaries in the world and still they receive billions of dollars of aid. Who do they fight? Enemies of the United States? No, or at least they wouldn’t be if the US didn’t make them so. That Israel’s human rights violations are overlooked as aid continues to flow into the war machine that is gradually grinding the Palestinians into permanent refugees, detainees, and suicide bombers accedes to the anti-Arab sentiments the United States holds. It is clear by the way Israel deals with the Palestinians that the mere thought of them brings an unpleasant taste to their palette. With peace deals that only hint at what the Palestinians strive for and constant settlement building in their territory how can it be anything other than racially-based hatred? Israel’s supposed “right to exist” often interferes with that of the Palestinian people.

Racism applies to all races and the Palestinians hate the Jews no more than the Jews hate them.

Batman

05-21-2002, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Muslim4Israel2

I'm just an objective analyst, who recognises Israels right to safety but criticises the methods.

There is no moral equivilancy between the Arab-Palestinian attacks on innocent civilains eating Pizza and shopping for food in supermarkets and Israelis defending against Palestinian bomb factories, and an entire Arab-Palestinian society intended to destroy Israel. What methods are you talking about? Self-defense?

There is no objective analysis when you equate the two societies.
The means do not justify the end. The Arab-Palestinians leadership under Yasser Arafat chose the path of war and terror instead of negotiations. The Israelis have a right to defend themselves.

Originally Posted by Muslim4Israel2

The anti-semetic thing is used to death

"to death" is more like it- is that a pun?

Anti Semitism exists unfortunately. It exists everywhere and especially in the organization that pretends to be fair and just the all time greatest farce on earth - the US supported ($11 billion annual tax payers' money) and hosted (the heart of New York City)United Nations.

Consider this:

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and
continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our
tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location
in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and
supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and
wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The
vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian
terrorism.

why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the
MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their
Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an
emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While
on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after
9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization
annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the
MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team
to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were
committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And,
by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje
Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no
U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in
U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb
factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the
U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity,
we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present
betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/303588867 )

Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this.
Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly,
it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but
he is very graphic when condemning Israel.
United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman)
PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 06:54 PM

You are quick to dismiss the israeli atrocities as 'defense' it is because of this 'defense' that they are so frequently bombed. They kill innocents as often through the IDF as Hamas does with suicide bombers. If it can be said that the Israelies are defending themsevles against the Palestinians by invading their territory, coming into their homes, arresting people who have commited no crime other than being arab males of certain ages inside refugee camps, and killing civillians, then it can also be said that the Palestinians are defending themselves by attacking into the Israeli state and killing cvillians.

View this as what it is, a war. Each side kills the other but somehow the worldview of the situation (well, American's view of it anyhow) has been shifted to thinking Israel is being attacked for no reason. The Israelies kill Palestinian children with guns and the Palestinians kill Israeli children with bombs, is either any less cruel? The Israelies and the Americans who support them need to get off their high-moral horse.

Batman

05-21-2002, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Nowhere else in the world can atrocities be so overlooked as those committed by the Israelis against the Arabs.

Are you for real? Or is your name Cruelty supposed to indicate that you believe in Cruelty?

Check out the falsehood of your statement: "Nowhere else in the world" - is the United Nations the world???

"atrocities be so overlooked" - did the United Nations even ONCE investigate Palestinian-Arab atrocities against Israelis?

LEARN TO READ BEFORE YOU USE THE CRUELTY OF VAGUENESS TO THE KINDNESS OF CLARITY AND FACTS :

The United Nations must be held accountable. The world cannot be silent and
continue to let this organization assume a position of world leadership, using our
tax money ($11 billion annually by US !) to support it, with its center location
in New York City, while continually declaring a political war against Israel and
supporting terror against Israel.

After the most recent MASSACRE in Rishon Letzion which killed 16 people and
wounded 60, the U.N. had the audacity to CONDEMN ISRAEL the very next day. The
vote was 74-4 with 54 abstentions. There were no votes condemning Palestinian
terrorism.

why they still have not called an emergency "security council" meeting about the
MASSACRE in Israel? Didn't they call several such meetings to help their
Palestinian terrorists? In fact, we want to know WHY there has never been an
emergency meeting after Jews have been massacred by the friends of the U.N.? While
on the topic, we don't recall Mr. Annan calling for an emergency meeting after
9/11. Doesn't the U.S. taxpayer give $11 billion to this corrupt organization
annually?

Until the U.N. calls an emergency meeting of the security council to condemn the
MASSACRE of Jews, VOTES on it with an unconditional resolution, and sends a team
to inquire how these massacres took place and what human rights violations were
committed by the PA, it is violating all that it is supposed to stand for. And,
by the way, why hasn't anyone heard from the U.N. Mideast "peace envoy", Terje
Larsen, about this?

Confronted with evidence of illegal Palestinian mines, mortars and missiles, no
U.N. official questioned how it was that bomb factories could exist in
U.N.-managed refugee camps. Either the U.N. officials were unaware of the bomb
factories -- a fact that would suggest utter incompetence -- or more likely, the
U.N. employees simply turned a blind eye.

If the United Nations is to be reflecting the values of peace, justice and unity,
we must gain momentum and grow in numbers to reflect our disgust with the present
betrayal of these common human values.

URGE THE UN TO
INVESTIGATE PALESTINIAN TERROR IMMEDIATELY (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/303588867 )

Call Fred and his staff and demand to know what criminal logic was behind this.
Yes, Annan issued some tepid and banal "condemnation" for the media, but frankly,
it just does not cut it. Annan only minces words when Jewish lives are taken, but
he is very graphic when condemning Israel.
United Nations: - Fred Ekherd (Annan's spokesman)
PH# 212-963-5128 FAX# 212-963-7055 EMAIL: inquiries@un.org

Batman

05-21-2002, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Death to hypocrites

NOW THAT YOU HAVE INTRODUCED DEATH SO CRUELLY DISGUISED AS JUSTICE:

Death to Hitler (he did die) and anyone who follows in his footsteps.

Death to those who die for death culture to thrive (they do die, by their own doing, but they kill innocents and that is WRONG no matter how many excuses are brought out of the irrational minds)

Death to Suicide Bombers Homicidal Maniacs(they do die) because they choose to die and only their mothers (who support death culture) could stop them but instead they egg them on with keys to homes they never possessed.

READ THE FACTS:

The most glaring expression of Arabs' bad faith can be seen in their deplorable treatment of the Palestinian refugees and their refusal of over 1/2 century to relocate them and improve their condition, even while they were under Jordanian rule. While Israel was making the desert bloom and relocating 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab states, and building a thriving industrial democracy in the allotted sliver, the Arabs were busy making sure their 472,000 refugees (WHO FLED THE 1948 WAR PLANNING TO RETURN AFTER THE NEVER TO HAPPEN ARAB VICTORY OF DESTROYING ISRAEL) remain in squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza where they were powerless, have no rights and are economically destitute.

Today, 50 years after the first Arab was against Israel there are 59 such refugee camps and 3.7 million 'refugees" registered with the UN. Despite economic aid from the UN and Israel itself, despite the oil wealth of the Arab kingdoms, the Arab leaders have refused to undertake the efforts that would liberate the refugees from their miserable camps, or to make the economic investment that would alleviate their condition. There are now 22 Arab states providing homes for the same ethnic population, speaking a common Arabic language. But the only one that will allow the Palestinian Arabs to become citizens is Jordan. And the only state the Palestinians covet is Israel.

The refusal to address the condition of the Palestinian refugee population is- and has always been- a calculated Arab policy, intended to keep the Palestinian Arabs in a state of desperation in order to incite their hatred of Israel for the wars to come.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Death to Hitler (he did die) and anyone who follows in his footsteps.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 07:08 PM

16 Killed? tragic no doubt but it pales in comparison to the slayings of HUNDREDS of Palestinian children during the Intifadah uprisings of 1999-2000. Not to mention the massacres that were overseen and supported by Israel at Sabra and Shatilla. I think that the Israeli casualties to terrorists barely match that one incident alone let alone the thousands more killed by israeli phosphorous bombs dropped on Damascus.

Have you not noticed how a much bigger deal is made when 16 israelies are killed than when a few hundred Palestinians are shot by IDF soldiers? You may say they were rioting and they were but does that give you the right to kill them? Tienamin square happens over and over again in Israel.

When a handful of Israelies are killed they respond by obliterating infrastructure of Palestinian settlements with bombs and missiles that will likely never be rebuilt if peace does not come, which it won't with Israel's approach. They press the palestinians further down on the economic ladder than they already are with their bombing of neighborhoods and civillian structures. What, I ask, is the Palestinians only possible response to the killing of their friends neighbors and children? A handfull of suicide bombings killing a shade of the number the IDF does.

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 07:59 PM

You speak of "illegal" palestinian mortars, missiles, and mines, and I am forced to ask, illegal in the eyes of whom? the Israelis? bah. to them it is illegal to be a Palestinian male apparently. To the UN? that has a little more weight, but not enough in my eyes, seeing as it has thus far failed to make these weapons unnessesary for the Palestinians. I would also like to bring up the small matter (in YOUR eyes at least) of the constant shelling by IDF troops of refugee camps, not to mention insignificant helicopter strafing and trifling bulldozer house crushing. Really, if you are going to piss and moan about some illegal palestinian arms, consider for everyones sake exactly what the Israelis are doing that are making these weapons nessesary to the Palestinians. In fact, I'll just tell you why they are nessesary. They are nessesary to oust the facist Israeli military incursions and free the Peoples of Palestine from the crushing Israeli grasp.
Does that satisfy you, or do I have to turn on the Bat-Signal to make it a little more clear???

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 08:39 PM

I see the apologists for terrorists who purposely kill innocent Jewish civilians (e.g., the 5-year old girl recently shot at point blank range for being a "settler") are out in full force.

Cruelty: Good name for a Palestinian supporter! Have you not noticed that the Arabs have been trying to kill people for the crime of being Jewish for many decades? In 1929 (before there was an IDF), Palestinian Arabs massacred the entire Jewish community in Hebron. These were not "settlers," they were inhabitants.

Then during WW II the Mufti of Jerusalem traveled to Berlin in an effort to convince his allies to extend the "final solution" to Palestine.

The UN proposed a partition -- two states for two peoples -- but the Arab response was that they wanted all or nothing. Since 1948, several Arab states have been trying their best to massacre all Israelis.

What annoys you to no end is that Israel has repeatedly given the Arabs the sound thrashing they deserved. Really, Israel's "crime" is defeating Arabs who outmanned and outgunned Israel by a huge margin (often 20:1). On top of that, Israel produces wealth (thanks to the brains and industriousness of her people) while Arabs in neighboring states only seem to produce violence, intolerance, lies, and totalitarianism.

Isolationator: There's not much of substance to respond to in your post. Israel wouldn't be shelling terrorist camps if they weren't sending terrorists to kill civilians. Perhaps you should complain to your beloved Arab brothers who keep Palestinians living in perpetual squalor just to keep the flame burning.

The Big Lie is exposed by the fact that Israel offered the Palestinians a settlement that included 97% of the West Bank and East Jerusalem as the capital of a Palestinian state (something which, by the way, the Palestinians never demanded of Egypt and Jordan, exposing their phony claim of seeking "national liberation"). The blameless Palestinian response? War and terrorism.

"Death to hypocrites"? I wonder where Muslims who support or even just excuse terrorist attacks on innocents land on the hypocrisy-meter?

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 08:40 PM

One should look at why they left in the first place and the fact THAT they left. Israel was their home THAT is why they covet it. Not because of some deep seated anti-semitic issues. While I am not denying that in all of Hizbollah there is not a single anti-semite to say that they've no claim to the land, and that they attack Israel only because they hate jews is preposterous.

And ask yourself this, Batman do the Arabs in Israel have many more rights than those in the refugee camps? They will tell you themselves, no.

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 08:45 PM

The Arabs in Israel have more rights than Arabs in Arabia.

That's why many Druse and Bedouin Arabs proudly serve in the IDF.

If the Arabs don't stop their evil terrorist attacks against children and elderly, they will have to pack their bags and go back to Arabia.

Try looking at a map of the region. The Arabs have plenty of land. And if Zionists drove Arabs off their land, why are there 1 million Arabs still living in Israel?

The fact is that most of the "refugees" are descendents of people who left at the urging of their Arab brothers, and the rest are pure fakes. Every Arab who lives in the Middle East claims to "own" land inside Israel, but of course they have no papers to prove it.

To paraphrase a famous cinematic scoundrel: "Deeds? We don't need no stinkin' deeds!"

Gatorade

05-21-2002, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty “With peace deals that only hint at what the Palestinians strive for”

Yes, you a right. After Clinton in December of 2000 proposed offering over 90% of the West Bank, Gaza, and part of Jerusalem, Arafat has made it clear that he didn’t want only the creation of a Palestinian state, he wanted all of Israel’s land. By refusing to negotiate, not presenting a counter offer, or ever really presenting any peace proposal offer, and by turning to violence after the proposals that may have not been perfect but did provide a framework for peace, Arafat has shown he does not merely want “occupied terrorities” from the 1967 war.

Originally posted by Cruelty
View this as what it is, a war. Each side kills the other but somehow the worldview of the situation (well, American's view of it anyhow) has been shifted to thinking Israel is being attacked for no reason. The Israelies kill Palestinian children with guns and the Palestinians kill Israeli children with bombs, is either any less cruel? The Israelies and the Americans who support them need to get off their high-moral horse.

You blame Israel for the PA lack of police work. Israel would love it if the PA would arrest suicide bombers and those who planned them. As a result of the PA corruption, the IDF is forced into doing something they don’t enjoy doing. They are forced to go into PA controlled areas and do police work. Moreover,the IDF isn’t a police force. When they enter a hostile environment, it becomes urban warfare more than a police work. Still the IDF does its best to minimize causalities. It is very unfortunate when the IDF makes mistakes. And they aren’t perfect and have made lots of mistakes. But it has never been their policy to target innocent civilians. Meanwhile, the suicide bombers policy is to intentionally target civilians.

No, many American’s view is that that attacks do have a reason. The reason is the Palestinian radicals want all of Israel and not just the creation of a Palestinian state, since they were offered a framework for the creation of a Palestinian state and turned it down and turned to violence.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 08:50 PM

Outgunned? Hardly, American weapons (which are vastly superior to the decrepit soviot era technology the Palestinians are forced to use) are in the hands of every soldier. Ibrodsky, nice racist assumption that jews are inherently better than muslims, btw, since they get funding from America and don't live under oppressive governments. You call me an anti-semite when clearly you are a racist with a deepseated jewish superiority complex.

I never said Muslim governments were perfect, before you attack me for that.

As for my own hypocrisy I do not excuse terrorist attacks. They are tragic, yes, but the terrorist attacks carried out by the IDF are equal in scope, if not more, and they are against a far inferior opponent. Both sides kill innocents. Get off your high moral horse.

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:00 PM

Cruelty: Israel did not receive any military aid from the US until 1973 -- and then only after the Arabs launched a surprise attack.

A fact most Palestinian supporters just can't deal with: tiny Israel produces world class defense systems that are eagerly sought by countries such as China, India, Turkey, etc.

You don't excuse terrorist attacks against Israelis? When you equate Israeli responses to terrorist attacks you are doing just that.

There are no Israelis going to Arab schools, cafes, bus stops, etc. and blowing up unarmed people just to see how many Arabs they can liquidate. But there are Arabs doing this to Jews.

If you aren't a racist, then speak out against racist terrorist attacks on Jewish civilians! To just say it's tragic is no better than giving the terrorists a wink and nod.

The message coming from Palestinian supporters is loud and clear: suicide bombing is tragic -- but has to be done.

Gatorade

05-21-2002, 09:04 PM

Cruelty,

In law intent is very important. You only are viewing things by their outcome. But I agree that both sides do lose innocents and it that is tragic.

You also insinuate that because the Palestinians don’t have the weapons that the IDF does that it explains, or that you understand, why Palestinian leaders would encourage and support suicide bombers. You fail to recognize that the suicide bombers aren’t doing their thing out of desperation. They are doing it to prevent a peace process from going forward.

Meanwhile, Israel has to react and defend itself from making suicide bomber planners thinking that they are going to be appeased. Israel never wants to appease a group that has little regard for human life because Israel believes that would only encourage more threats and violence.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:06 PM

Or do you just watch the videos on Palestinian Television
(sponsored by the US tax payer's money -unbeknownst to them- but with the knowing approval and support of the United Nations) Seeds of Hatred (http://www.mideasttruth.com)

Are not the Palestinian-Arab leaders at fault for all your sufferings?
Will you remain held hostage by their betrayal as they dole out to you $350 per person to commit suicide (Arafat's famous genorosity of all the billions he collected into his Swiss account for many years- Of course, Hussein and the Saudis are much more generous murder supporters - they will give Arab mom and dad $25K for every self- exploding family heir)
But, on the other hand with Arafat you get to be hugged and kissed by the well known terrorist and snake in the grass before you go and explode in the name or 'liberation' from your reality.
Well. If the 'occupation' myth is the story every Arab Palestinian bought from the Arab League of Nations via Arafat - these mideast dictators who established the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1964 with him and YET refuse to grant Palestinian-Arabs refuge and citizenship -(except Jordan)- then I see why Palestinains-Arabs want to die and liberate themselves from this dual and quadrupal betrayal. No wonder all the Palestinian-Arabs can do helplessly (and cowardly) is fight the only visible (so called by their brain-washing leadership)'enemy' Israel (who is not really the actual enemy of the Palestinian-Arabs) Because the invisible enemy is their own mother, father and family who bought lock stock and barrel the 'myth' created by the Arab leadership -with Arafat the Egyptian (born in Cairo) at its head. How do you fight everyone else's opinion while you've been raised on that opinion while you are living under a dictatorship where free speech and press is liable to get you killed? I would feel sorry for people like that but unfortunately they would like to follow the leader. Arafat and the Arab dictators hiding behind his skirts-literally- I mean skirts- he is such a BIG coward, sending children to do his fighting for him- hiding behind 6 year olds!!!

The PAlestinian-Arabs have to get smarter, reject this false approach to solving problems or else they'll never win.

When Arafat gives someone the kiss of death does it include a free shopping trip with Arafat's wife at Dior in Paris? How does Arafat get away with keeping his wife in the lap of luxury in Paris? Is it not a transparent situation for the Palestinian-Arabs? He's got lots of money, fame, good lunch invitations (even if some people throw him out occassionally-you can't win 'em all) and basically the Palestinian-Arabs get to kill themeselves and their kids.

I don't get it.

Why don't you get it?

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:06 PM

Palestinians get funding from the EU, the US, and oil rich Arab states. Israel has only one real friend, and many viscious enemies.

Maybe you should try reading the stuff that is spewed from the Arab press, Arab web sites, and their strategic partners: anti-semitic white power groups.

You think Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hezbollah aren't racist? They celebrate when teenage Israeli girls are brutally murdered in what they call "martyr" operations.

The IDF does not launch operations to purposely kill Arab teenage girls. But the Palestinians scream "massacre" when their fighters lose in combat they asked for. The Big Lie about a Jenin "massacre" has been exposed by both Human Rights Watch (no friend of Israel's) and the Palestinians, themselves.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:08 PM

The cruel oppression of the Israeli government cannot be stopped by conventional means. Their government is extremist (not as much as the Arab governments but it is extreme nonetheless) their military is formidable, and their people are determined. Much like Nazi Germany, there are a great many comparisons one could make between Israel and Nazi Germany but I wont go into that here.

You are a racist and you have proven that in this thread so far. You are a hypocrite, and you have proven that by calling me a racist. I AM saying that terrorist attacks are tragic but necessary. If the Israeli government did not oppress the Palestinians to such a degree there would be no need for the terrorist attacks.

Another point I will bring up is this; it has nothing to do with the race of Israelis. Were they any other race and performing the same actions they would be treated the same both by the world and by the people they oppress.

You are so quick to call them "responses," they are attacks against people as innocent as those that were killed in the suicide bombing which may or may not have coincided with the "response." Israeli civillians are not the only target of suicide bombers. If you believe they would not trade ten civillian lives for that of one israeli soldier you are mistaken. The Palestinians see the Israeli civillians as soldiers. They march onto their land and set up settlements that serve as outposts and are defended with bullets and bombs. Many Israelis are reservists (not the women and children who are killed and that is deplorable but collateral damage will happen, isn't that what the IDF says?).

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:08 PM

"There's not much of substance to respond to in your post. Israel wouldn't be shelling terrorist camps if they weren't sending terrorists to kill civilians. Perhaps you should complain to your beloved Arab brothers who keep Palestinians living in perpetual squalor just to keep the flame burning. "

Point one: shelling terrorist camps? last time I heard they were shelling civilian centers, and even though many Israeli supporters would just LOVE to think that ALL Palestinians are raving lunatics just itching to detonate at the sight of an Israeli, its almost a shame to shatter such a widely accepted idea (almost). I would tell you that most Palestinians are NOT terrorists, just simple people seeking to live their lives in the way that causes them the least suffering, just like the rest of humanity, huh? funny how that works isn't it?
Point Two: as far as I know, "my beloved arab brothers" as you put it so eloquently *cough* sarcasm *cough* are not keeping Palestinians in perpetual squalor, in fact, I believe that a certain, very intelligent Israeli supporter told me that the so called "squalor" of the refugee camps (if that is indeed what you are referring to) is a myth, so if you think that my beloved arabs are keeping their own people down I think that you should discuss it with him. (BTW, I am not Arab, and Arabs were never my "beloved," I simply cannot fail to support them because I agree with their cause)

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:16 PM

But teenage palestinians are killed nonetheless. Explain that however you like but it happens. Call it "collateral damage", a "tragedy", an "accident" what-have-you but it still happens and any excuse the Israelis could make for it could be made by the Palestinians.

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:17 PM

Cruelty: I never called you a "racist." I said that if you are not a racist then you must speak out against racist attacks against Jews by Arab terrorists. But instead, you have said that terrorist attacks on innocent civilians are necessary.

Your excuse is that purportedly most Israelis are "reservists." Oh yes, the moms and toddlers at Sbarros Pizza must have looked very much like "reservists." And then those 15 and 16 year old girls at the Dolphinarium disco are soooo "reservist."

Perhaps from the gutter it looks like I am on a "moral high horse." But if you can excuse people who purposely shoot a five year old girl at point blank range in her bedroom... there is no chance that that was "collateral" damage.

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:18 PM

I enjoy the idea of an alliance between myself and Cruelty, he seems to be very informed, and beyond that, strong in his assertions and convictions. What say you Cruelty, mutual defense?

---P.S. thanks for the keen idea BATMAN, maybe me and Cruelty and You and Robin can battle sometime and throw a few punches lol *BIFF* *POW* *ZOOT*

Gatorade

05-21-2002, 09:22 PM

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:23 PM

You MUST be able to. You're here aren't you? You can read then I assume. I suggest you go back over my post, read it carefully, aloud if necessary. And try desperately to understand the meaning contained in the very simple words.

I said that many Israelies are reservists, then, very clearly in brackets (obviously not the women and children and that is deplorable) you did not see that or just chose not to care?

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:26 PM

Isolationator: Well, let me set the record straight. The myth about the "refugee" camps is not the squalor -- that is quite real -- it's the notion that they are "refugee" camps.

As Conor Cruise O'Brien explained in his book about the Israeli-Arab conflict, the Arabs call them "refugee camps" simply to win world sympathy by creating images of rows of tents or shacks. The "refugee camps" are really urban areas not all that different from other Palestinian cities.

The "refugee camps" in southern Lebanon would be better called military/terrorist bases. When Christian fighters came to those camps to seek justice against the PLO, which had torn Lebanon apart in a bloody civil war, of course the Palestinians blamed Israel.

If the Arab cause is so just, why do Arabs purposely kill unarmed civilians, spread racist blood libels, glorify suicide terrorists, idolize Osama bin Laden for massacring 3,000 Americans, idolize Saddam Huseein for raping Kuwait, and idolize Syria for its truly illegal occupation of Lebanon?

Hypocrites indeed!

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:31 PM

I said that many Israelies are reservists, then, very clearly in brackets (obviously not the women and children and that is deplorable) you did not see that or just chose not to care?

But you ignore my point: many if not most such attacks are purposely directed at the most defenseless Israelis. Sbarros Pizza and the Dolphinarium were purposely chosen because they were devoid of reservists.

There is no evidence that terrorists are seeking "reservists." Nor do the terrorist groups express anything but joy when they kill people who couldn't possibly be reservists, like the 28 people massacred at a Passover Seder. The goal was clearly to kill Jews for being Jews ... this is what you excuse and support.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Much like Nazi Germany, there are a great many comparisons one could make between Israel and Nazi Germany but I wont go into that here.

Who are you kidding? You just made a big accusation about Israel being like Nazi Germany BUT you won't go there!!!

A joker- well you won't make it as a Stand Up because it's not funny to accuse and not back up anything.

Israel has done nothing to resemble the Nazi regime and you know it. Israel has avoided using German shepherd dogs who can sniff out bombs and save lives because Israel has been so traumatized by the Nazis.

The Palestinian-Arabs have been brainwashed to believe all this crock and kill themselves fighting a ghost enemy.

Israel is not the 'enemy' of the Palestinian-Arabs. Just as the Christians ('infidels' as Osama quotes the Koran)are not the enemy of Islam.

The true enemy of the Palestinian Arabs is their own manipulative and merciless Nazi dictatorship - leadership. This leadership puts fear into the population and brainwashes it all at once.
See for yourself what you should call Nazi barbarism toward your own people
http://www.rootofevil.com/tyranny/default.php?image=5

Who are the real Nazis? Israel has no choice but to defend itself against barbarians and savages.

Either you keep sleeping and being victimized while fighting a non existent enemy you call Israel-
Or you'll wake up with true courage to fight your very very cruel leadership!!!

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:35 PM

"Either you keep sleeping and being victimized while fighting a non existent enemy you call Israel-
Or you'll wake up with true courage to fight your very very cruel leadership!!!"

oh yes, Cruelty must rise up and FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT, against his cruel leade-- OH WAIT, CRUELTY LIVES IN AMERICA!!!! next time why dont you read descrips before you go and make such an obvious error hmmmmmmm?

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:36 PM

Arabs kill innocent civillians, yes it's terrible and I apologize for that. However the killing of innocent civillians by Israelis cannot be ignored. You cannot attack the terrorists without also attacking the IDF terrorists for they commit the same crimes. The Israelis are racist as well, or is it a conincidence that only arabs are screened at checkpoints and routinely have their houses bulldozed and are rounded up into pens similar to the operations practiced by Serbian Death Squads.

They idolize Osama because he did what they thought impossible. He struck at America, who gives their mortal enemies the weapons with which to kill them and their children.

They idolize Saddam because he attacked a western style government supported by America, who has become their enemy through long standing support of Israel. Also because he gives money to the families of suicide bombers and to those who have lost children to IDF terrorists (and yes from now on they will always be referred to as terrorists by me as that is precisely what they are).

Syria is occupying Lebanon no more illegally than Israel is occupying Lebanon. While it's occupation cannot be excused you cannot denounce it while defending Israel's occupation of similar land.

You call them christian fighters??? FIGHTERS? Ok from now on Hizbollah and Hamas will be considered Freedom Fighters all right? This is a similar argument to what you are saying. FIGHTERS do not enter refugee camps that are surrounded by Israeli troops and filled with ONLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN and mercilessly slaughter them with long knives over threedays of bloodshed killing all told as many women and children as men women and children were killed in september elleventh.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Isolationator

he seems informed...

How do you know he is not a she? Do you know each other already?

what a coincidence...

Isolationator

05-21-2002, 09:41 PM

I apologize wholeheartedly for actually Personal Msging Cruelty without telling you batman. I also am sad that your fantastic sleuthing skills are so worn down. Nice try.

Batman

05-21-2002, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Arabs kill innocent civillians, yes it's terrible and I apologize for that.

Trained in PLO school of brainwashing techniques paid for by the US taxpayer money.(unbeknownstly)

How innocently you apologize for the entire Arab world out to kill Jews and destroy Israel.

Well. It's not that simple. You pulled out the knives right afterwards. I hope your audience was paying attention.

If you want a solution tell your leaders to stop brainwashing the population, because you will not succeed in brainwashing
Israel to stop defending itself against your savagery!!!

Israel has been duped once with Oslo and that entire pack of wolves. But now the secret is out: Anti Semitism is alive and well and thriving with Islam/Arafat at its head (and Saudi/Iran under his skirts.Lets not forget to give credit to the UN and EU for their wonderful contribution of perpetuating hatered and violence once more)

ibrodsky

05-21-2002, 09:49 PM

Cruelty: You call them christian fighters??? FIGHTERS? Ok from now on Hizbollah and Hamas will be considered Freedom Fighters all right? This is a similar argument to what you are saying. FIGHTERS do not enter refugee camps that are surrounded by Israeli troops and filled with ONLY WOMEN AND CHILDREN and mercilessly slaughter them with long knives over threedays of bloodshed killing all told as many women and children as men women and children were killed in september elleventh.

This may be the Arab version, but remember, the Arabs love to compare Israel to Nazi Germany who they were allied with -- and they never expressed a whit of remorse for that.

Sorry, but there were armed PLO fighters in those camps and even inquiries that assigned some of the blame to Israel indicated that most of the dead were armed males.

If there were only women and children, as you are so certain, why would it have taken three days to kill them?

And where do you get the preposterous claim that there were as many killed as on 9/11? The casualty figures I saw for the two camps together were in the hundreds, not thousands. (Of course, among the liars the numbers of dead grow geometrically over time, just as the number of Palestinian "refugees" is now approaching an impossible 10 million.)

By the way, I said Christian fighters -- I didn't say "freedom fighters." You suggest I can't read? Maybe you need to read my posts aloud to make sure you get what I am actually saying...

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 09:53 PM

How many females support terrorism in Palestine from America. It was a logical assumption. Anyhow since you clearly are blind to the numerous trends that place Israel very close to Nazi germany in policy let me detail a few of them for you.

The Zionist forces of Europe were based in Germany in the early thirties and in fact worked with the Nazi party to set up the state of Israel. You could then say that Israel was helped in it's founding by Nazis. Although the Nazis did eventually betray their Zionist allies the fact that they worked together at any time speaks volumes.

Israel invades the homes of Palestinians JUST because they are Palestinians much as Germany invaded the homes of Jews during the early 40's. Israel bulldozes the houses of Palestinians and Germany confiscated all of the possessions of the Jewish households they so cruelly destroyed.

The SS looked for Jews hiding out in population centers much as the IDF looks for Muslims hiding out in population centers. These "suspected terrorists" are taken to IDF bases and tortured to confess and give away their comrades. If they will not confess, some are murdered. This violates MANY Geneva conventions, maybe you hate the UN so much because you can't follow it's rules on human decency hmm?

Israel invades its neighbors and takes their land, settling their and defending it against the indigenous inhabitants and considering them terrorists. Germany invaded their neighbors and settled there and defended them against the Underground forces who, if I am not mistaken, they called terrorists as well. Geroge washington was a terrorist in the eyes of Brittain (but thats off topic) but Americans celebrate him as a hero. Similarly Osama is a terrorist celebrated as a hero by palestinians. He struck at the great empire of America and succeeded, much as Geroge Washington did.

Sabra and Shatilla (although a one time massacre) could easily be compared to Auswitch or any other deathcamp that the jews of Europe were forced to endure.

The Germans saw themselves as a superior race to those around them as clearly Israelis do as well if Ibrodsky's attitude is anything to go by. He is clearly an elitest racist and his views could be construed as Aryan, only with different races.

"The jews made it with nothing while those dirty muslims slept in their own filth and failed." Yes your not a racist...

In addition the entire arab world is aligned against Israel, who is nearly as powerful as all of them combined. This is very similar to how the world was allied against Nazi germany, who was nearly as powerful as all of them combined.

Cruelty

05-21-2002, 10:01 PM

First of all the first reporter on the scene was an Israeli one who claimed the casualties were around 2000. The red cross later reported 3000, was this not how many you said died at sept 11? Also, they were women and children only as the men had all left, fearing rightfully so, for their lives, and hoping that the Israelis and Christian Phalangists would not be so cruel as to slaughter women and children, apparently they were wrong. it took 3 days because they were using knives and because their victems hid.

Maybe some of the Arabs were allied with Nazi germany but Palestine in particular was against Germany in both ww1 and ww2. In fact Brittain promised them their independence if they would help against the Axis Powers, of course they didn't realize their independence would be under the yoke of Israeli oppression. The Brittish lied to them and apparently now they are sorry as they attack Israel for their various Human Rights violations quite often.

Also, Batman, you say stop brainwashing muslim children? What do you think CNN is? It is brainwashing, although far more subtle and clever, for the Israeli cause. You will see far more positive comments about Israel and far more negative comments about Palestine on that network. Most media in America is laced with anti-arab propaganda. To accuse the Arabs of being the only ones who brainwash is laughable.

Batman

05-21-2002, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Isolationist

I apologize wholeheartedly .... I am sad...

Get real.

It's not funny when you consider the facts that words of insincere apologies have been the Hall of Fame for Arafat's Terror regime.

How many times did he apologize for his wife's Chanel wardrobe?
I never heard this even once from his kiss-of-death mouth...

Now, why are the Palestinian-Arabs buying into this? I have yet to hear a good explanation that doesn't point a finger at 'Israel' this and 'Israel' that....

Please lets get some real deep truth out of you...

Batman

05-21-2002, 10:44 PM

in response to originally posted by Cruelty: LOL...

As I said: Trained in PLO school of brainwashing techniques paid for by the US taxpayer money-(unbeknownstly)
A breakdown of your brainwashed fabricated arguments-though very willingly brainwashed I believe- because it's hard to go against Arab mommy and daddy (even in the US of A, land of the free you put down so conveniently...)

PLO/Arab lie #1: Never happened: keep twisting information that never existed and you may come up with the same story as Holocaust Denial- Are you almost up to that? Or are you convinced that the Jews were truly systemmatically massacred by the Nazis?
You have a fine by-rote learning skills: and yet you also show potential in imaginations: If I were your PLO instructor I would give you a free subscription to the Suicide Murderer Museum, you know, the one showing the Sbarro Pizza place with the Strewn body parts- oh, yeah, only last month in the civilized town under the Savage PA: But your imaginary stories are conveniently embellished and decorated with your very own swastika and PLO knife - you claim this falsehood as fact as follows:
In response to your:
"The Zionist forces of Europe ... in fact worked with the Nazi party to set up the state of Israel. You could then say that Israel was helped in it's founding by Nazis.Although the Nazis did eventually betray their Zionist allies the fact that they worked together at any time speaks volumes."

Falsehood #2: PLO knife throwing contest of the Suicide Murderers Award goes to...Cruelty, maybe...:
Jews of Europe never acted in violence toward the Nazis. There was no reason to search their homes. If the Nazis were seeking books and Menorahs they found them there. HOWEVER, ISRAEL IS FINDING BOMB FACTORIES AND TUNNELS TO EGYPT AND WAR SHIPS FROM IRAN!!!! Please Pay Attention to this NEW COURSE ON THE FACTS OF THE MID EAST- NOT SPONSORED BY THE PLO PROPAGANDA MACHINE-
In response to your:
"Israel invades the homes of Palestinians JUST because they are Palestinians much as Germany invaded the homes of Jews during the early 40's"

FALSEHOOD #3:Palestinian Authority TRains terrorist from the time they are old enough not to pee in their pants-but actually they do... this is why the IDF is looking everywhere...ABCDEFG...the United Nations has a majority of Islamic Nations running it with Iran supervision and therefore it is only upholding the Arab end of the story and ignoring Arab MASSACRES OF ISRAELI CITIZENS...
In response to your:
"The SS looked for Jews hiding out in population centers much as the IDF looks for Muslims hiding out in population centers.. ..This violates MANY Geneva conventions, maybe you hate the UN so much because you can't follow it's rules on human decency hmm?"

FALSEHOOD #4: go read a regular NON-PLO-SPONSORED HISTORY TEXT BOOK- like in the US library- You need to realize that every war against Israel was started by the Arabs...no matter how much you would like to believe otherwise, these facts are not going away...
In response to your:
"Israel invades its neighbors and takes their land, settling their and defending it against the indigenous inhabitants and considering them terrorists."
fALSEHOOD #5:
You have been totally brainwashed. Washington was a hero. He fought for freedom of religion and free speech from a MONARCHY.
The Palestinian-Arabs are oppressed by dictatorships and lies and brainwashing and unequal rights by their own leadership. This is whom they should fight. Israel would much rather never have anything to do with the Arab-Palestinians. Of course it would have been nice to have achieved peace, but no thanks to these people you celebrate as 'heroes' Why don't you go and join them, maybe be one of Arafat's wives living in Paris? Or one of Osama's 14 wives, you can all share his heroic savagery and dance when the World Trade Center Collapsed and killed innocent people...at the heart of America's most wonderful cities, New York... What a hero, a coward who preys on people who go to work in an office and this is when the Arab mothers pulled out the sweets for their children (soon to go and blow up to follow suit) and celebrations...nice role models you got there...
In response to your:
"Geroge washington was a terrorist in the eyes of Brittain (but thats off topic) but Americans celebrate him as a hero. Similarly Osama is a terrorist celebrated as a hero by palestinians. He struck at the great empire of America and succeeded, much as Geroge Washington did.

FAlshood #6: It's as absurd as Holocaust Denial...you need a refresher course on researching your material...or does the PLO forbid it?
In response to your:
"Sabra and Shatilla (although a one time massacre) could easily be compared to Auswitch or any other deathcamp that the jews of Europe were forced to endure. "

FAlshood #6: Yes. The Jews indoctrination of children supports the belief in non violence as a solving problem technique and that makes Jews better for the world than the Arabs who support suicide murder which is a human rights violation and a disgusting inhumane trait and a curse to the world

But that means that anyone who values life over death is as good as a Jew!!! even if they are not Jewish...Get it??????!!!!!!!
It's a free choice of values and Jews or no Jews can choose these over corruption and cowardly massacres of innocent people which Arabs are doing.
In response to your:
"The Germans saw themselves as a superior race to those around them as clearly Israelis do"

FAlshood #7:
It's lonely at the top.
The world was wrong when it aligned itself with the Nazi extermination of Jews and no one came to help the Jews before 6 million were murdered. No country opened the doors for Jews to escape to and that is how Israel became a land 'for Jews'- not because of racism, but because of this ugly reality of needing a place for Jews cause no one else let Jews in to save their lives!!!
And who made you an authority on how powerful any nation was and is? The PLO Propaganda School? Do they give Internet courses? Can I take some or was this all?

In response to your:
"In addition the entire arab world is aligned against Israel, who is nearly as powerful as all of them combined. This is very similar to how the world was allied against Nazi germany, who was nearly as powerful as all of them combined."

Batman

05-21-2002, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty:

Batman, you say stop brainwashing muslim children? What do you think CNN is? It is brainwashing, although far more subtle and clever, for the Israeli cause. You will see far more positive comments about Israel and far more negative comments about Palestine on that network. Most media in America is laced with anti-arab propaganda. To accuse the Arabs of being the only ones who brainwash is laughable.

NOW I KNOW YOU STUDY PLO PROPAGANDA VERY SKILLFULLY- YOU GET TO DANCE WITH ARAFAT BUT NOT GO TO SHOP WITH HIS WIFE IN PARIS... Oh what a waste of time to fight with shadows...
why don't you confess who you are working for...are you planning to retire as a Palestinian Arab hero (known as a terrorist in the circles of humanity) or do you plan to let him give you the kiss-of-death? Either way, you must do more to expand your mind.
It's pretty transparent...CNN as a likely bait...are you running out of knives and bomb factories??? FAce it, everyone is aware of the Arab role in destroying this world...but why do you live in America if you like the Arab world so much???
If the Arab world is so good for women why is it that the Arab women can vote only IN ISRAEL?

Is that brainwashing or is that a fact you prefer not to think about because it's too much to strain your mind while you are must concentrate on not stepping on Arafat's toes as you dance the dance of death he is leading....

Cruelty

05-22-2002, 04:25 PM

Your arguments are as inconsequential as can be imagined; your grammar also makes me suspect that you are 8-12 years old, your name only strengthens this theory.

You brang up holocaust denial numerous times, I have never once denied the holocaust and you are a fool if you see that in my posts.

I did not go to any PLO school as you jokingly (I think) allege. You want to talk about death of civillians? Compare the number of Arab civillians killed in the last three years to that of Israeli civillians, the difference is staggering. If Arabs are the ones doing all the killing why are they also doing all the dying?

The United Nations is far and away not led by Arab nations. If it were do you think Israel would yet stand? If the UNited Nations hated Israel as much as you say then Israel would be a blackened crater by now. Most of the countries in the United Nations are in Europe, also America and Russia. There are a few Arab countries but they do not hold any sort of majority power. Your attacks against the United Nations, an organization for peace, are both ridiculous and unfounded.

George Washington fought against a Monarchy that was oppressing his people. The Arabs fight against a totalitarian-democracy. A democracy for jews, and a totalitarian state for Arabs. While their own countries may use similar deplorable practices this forum is about Israel, not those countries. If you have some diatribe dealing with them I suggest you post it in the Iran-Bashing forum or what-have-you. Here is the place for criticism of Israel and that is what I am doing. That is why you do not see me criticizing Arab governments, though I have many problems with a great deal of them.

Your claim of "It's lonely at the top" only strengthens the argument that jews are as racist as anti-semites. To call others racist and then make such a blatantly, disgustingly, racist statement yourself is hypocritical.

I never said the Arab world was good for women. But by way of example Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister, has america ever had a female president? Or Israel for that matter? I think not.

The Arabs destroy no world, they attack Israelis who live on land that was theirs before Brittain turned it over to people who hadn't lived there in thousands of years. They attack the soldiers and civillians of a nation that is dead-set on destroying them and invading yet more of their land.

Isolationator

05-22-2002, 07:40 PM

I have noticed that BATMAN has made numerous references to Yasser Arafat's wife, her taste in vacation spots (France, I extrapolate from Bat's post) and her choice in clothing (Chanel, also taken from Batty). I wonder, what bearing does this have on the discussion at hand? If you are trying to make the point that Mrs. Arafat is using Palestinian monies to buy her expensive clothing and vacations I can only tell you this: No woman, no matter how expensive her tastes are, could possibly make a dent in a national budget. I challenge you to prove me wrong on that point. Secondly: there may just be reasons for her tastes (if indeed they are as you say they are). All the trips to France may be to raise popular support for the Palestinian cause, since France is indeed one of the nations in the EU that is sympathetic to Arabs. As for the Expensive Clothing, it may be that since she is the wife to a powerful man, it would be logical for her to appear well off, if only for the sole purpose of keeping up appearances. Even if none of these assumptions of mine are correct, the whole subject has little to do with the current situation. You should stick to more relevant things in your posts.

Vic

05-23-2002, 04:28 AM

Take my word for this please: there are still some sane Frenchmen, Belgians, Scandinavians etc. around, they just don't post in this forum.

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 05:14 AM

What Spain was in '36, Palestine is today. The first bloody stand
against Nazism, transmogrified by the twisted mutations of History, into the first stand against Zionazism.

It is indeed the first bloody stand against 21st century Nazism: militant Islam. The Arabs were allied with Nazi Germany during WW II, and were among the few Nazi supporters to go completely unpunished.

Recall, "LeFrenchman," that occupied France collaborated with the Nazis. Today, France is notorious for a huge wave of anti-semitic attacks. You accuse others of racism, but the following remarks prove you are a racist.

Fueled by traditional Jewish fears and insecurities, by their long-standing persecution complex, it was inevitable that "The Jewish Homeland" would someday lust to commit genocide, albeit slow-genocide, against helpless refugees. Racism stokes their hate, and denial of racism, and the ongoing atrocities perpetrated in the name of "security", fever their shrill hasbara efforts.

First you accuse Jews of Nazism, now you suggest the Nazis did nothing to Europe's Jews -- it was all part of the Jewish "persecution complex."

You would be right at home in Saudi Arabia.

Were Hemingway alive, he'd extol the Palestinian's courageous fight against impossible odds, against a wicked and odious breed of unholy zealots, with every ounce of his power.

I'm not surprised you think you can read a dead man's mind.

When Christ challenged the money-changers, and proclaimed a spiritual vision that embraced all men and women as one, they were so disturbed by the message, they connived to crucify him. Israel is crucifying the Palestinians, and the whole world knows it. Including a growing number of Jews. Individuals more respectful of righteousness, tolerance, and truth, than Jewishness, hatred, and lies.

Christ was crucified by the Romans. The "Palestine" of his day was a Roman colony inhabited primarily by Jews. The Arab imperialists, who came centuries later, admit they have no real ties to the land by calling themselves "Palestinians."

By condemning "Jewishness" you expose yourself as a racist. Israel and the U.S. do not condemn Islam, but a fascist interpretation of Islam that supports death, destruction, and totalitarianism.

I will let your first post stand as a monument to your racist, hateful, anti-semitic ideology. But it will be your last such post if I have anything to say about it.

Unfortunately for you, LeFrenchmen, we Jews will no longer go quietly to the slaughter. I never had an interest in firearms before, but noting the rising number of lower life forms such as you, I insist that my sons learn how to use them.

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 06:08 AM

Palestine was an ENGLISH COLONY at the start of WW2. They were on the side of Brittain, not Germany. As for other Arab countries that isn't really an issue on the Israelforums but you seem to forget that Myanmar, India, and Pakistan (all told some 400 million Muslims amongst those countries) fought Japan in the jungles of Southeast Asia, aided by their Brittish Colonial masters much as Palestine was, and by America.

[Racist comment deleted.] These are some of the same things Nazi Germany did so to claim that the Jews of Israel are somehow better than the Nazis they fled from is erroneous.

Even you must admit that Jews suffer from a persecution complex. While it is understandable seeing as they've been persecuted by the Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Catholic Church, Nazi Germany, the KKK you cannot deny its existance or its influence on Israeli policies.

While the Arabs who came centuries later than Christ claimed no connection to the land do you not think over the course of a thousand years an attachment might occur?

[Racist comment deleted.] He is not condemning being a Jew, but rather acting like a self-pitying, racist, elitist, genocidal Jew.

Mediocrates

05-23-2002, 07:05 AM

You left out the part about how we drink blood and have horns. You'd better draw the minivans in a circle and protect the womenfolk. Yids are a commin to your town.

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 07:38 AM

From "Cruelty"
Palestine was an ENGLISH COLONY at the start of WW2. They were on the side of Brittain, not Germany. As for other Arab countries that isn't really an issue on the Israelforums but you seem to forget that Myanmar, India, and Pakistan (all told some 400 million Muslims amongst those countries) fought Japan in the jungles of Southeast Asia, aided by their Brittish Colonial masters much as Palestine was, and by America.

As a colony, Palestine was not in a position to support anyone. However, the Mufti of Jerusalem spent the last years of WW II in Berlin lobbying his friend Adolph Hitler. Many future Arab leaders were members of Arab fascist parties. Nazi Germany declared the Arabs "non-non-Aryans" in order to exempt them; they enthusiastically supplied the Nazi war machine with most of its oil.

Asian countries fighting Japan have nothing to do with this discussion.

These are some of the same things Nazi Germany did so to claim that the Jews of Israel are somehow better than the Nazis they fled from is erroneous.

You haven't shown any evidence that Israel does what distinguished Nazi Germany. Though Islamicists (followers of militant Islam) dream of doing such things to the Jews. Fortunately, this time we are well armed and trained.

What hypocrisy: You defend "LeFrenchman," but right now there is a wave of anti-semitic attacks taking place in France.

Even you must admit that Jews suffer from a persecution complex. While it is understandable seeing as they've been persecuted by the Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Catholic Church, Nazi Germany, the KKK you cannot deny its existance or its influence on Israeli policies.

A "persecution complex" is a delusion. As you just corroborated, Jews really have been persecuted.

While the Arabs who came centuries later than Christ claimed no connection to the land do you not think over the course of a thousand years an attachment might occur?

Yes, but it doesn't give them the right to exterminate the persistent and not insignificant original inhabitants. Nor does it override the Jewish people's much longer attachment to their homeland.

Palestinian supporters complain about Jews coming to Palestine over the past 100+ years. It is only arrogance that permits you to arbitrarily determine how far back we can go in examining such complaints.

He is not condemning being a Jew, but rather acting like a self-pitying, racist, elitist, genocidal Jew.

Yet I had to delete your own sweeping condemnations of all Jews.

What hypocrisy!

elke

05-23-2002, 07:57 AM

"I never said the Arab world was good for women. But by way of example Pakistan has had a female Prime Minister, has america ever had a female president? Or Israel for that matter? I think not. "

You think wrong. Golda Meir was the Prime Minister of Israel, approximately 20 years prior to Benidzir Bhutto.

Moreover, Israeli citizens, Jewish and Arabic alike, have a vote, whether they are men or women.

As far as grammar is concerned, nobody "brang" anything up: they BROUGHT it up. "Jewish" is supposed to be capitalized. So, please lay off the grammar of others.

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 07:58 AM

from "Cruelty"
"The jews made it with nothing while those dirty muslims slept in their own filth and failed." Yes your not a racist...

The quote you cite appears to be a complete fabrication. Please show us who said this -- other than you. When I search the key words in the quote only your post comes up...

If you imagine you have justice on your side, why do you need to lie?

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 03:34 PM

Interesting...

Three Palestinian supporters show up in this forum: Cruelty, Isolationator, and Frenchman.

All three quickly show that they are racists.

While people who criticize Israel aren't automatically anti-semitic, it seems most of those who are fervent Palestinian supporters are. Particularly those that excuse terrorism as "the only weapon they have available" -- as if killing innocent civilians (incl. children and elderly) is somehow justified when things aren't going your way.

Of course, they try to cover up their support for evil by claiming that Israel also practices "terrorism." Gee, who walked away from peace negotiations and started this war? Who broke their written promise to not initiate violence? Which side preaches killing anyone of the ethmic group they don't like in their schools, media, and houses of worship?

Batman

05-23-2002, 07:52 PM

Yes, I like to think that anyone who sends his wife out to parade with luxurious people while he butchers his own people's children via some ridiculous conspiracy to destroy Israel, needs to be suspected to be not "a powerful man" as you put in so carefully and strategically into your propaganda washed comment, but actually as a master mind for evil!

If you study evil people in history, and I mean Hitler, Nero, Stalin, and an array of dictators who brought the world down to its knees in suffering and atrocities, you can see that their desire for the good of their own people never really was the motivation.
It was always personal power via money, army (war) and killing anyone who disagreed with them. Basically these people look like angels next to Arafat. He's got to get the Nobel Sick prize for diabolical twists on diabolical minds.

When did he dream up this strategy of not nuking his own people like Saddam Hussein but simply tricking them into killing their own children and themselves. If you, Isolationator are ready to blow up your own kid for any reason, then we should not be having this discussion because you and I are on 2 different planets and the 2 shall never meet.

The monster Arafat tells his people to kill themselves - his wife is in silks. Why doesn't she go and wear this suicide bomb belt and prove that she will 'martyr' herself like Arafat wants his people to do. Let her blow herself up for Arafat and his 'cause.' I think the way the EU thinks he will get much more sympathy for his false diabolical cause than if she just continues to have tea in elegant circles, pretending to be a lady of good manners while dripping with blood diamonds...Actually he should do the same, then we may have some peace
It's not Israel that's killing the Palestinians - it's Arafat

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 08:10 PM

NOT A SINGLE COMMENT THAT I MADE THERE COULD BE SEEN AS RACIST, CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH TO BE DELETED. Your censorship is unwarranted and you only used it to make me look like a racist. I challenge you, put the original comments back, if you can remember them, and all will see that you are being a censoring propaganda spewing nazi by denying people access to non-racist comments I made and making it appear as if I had said something bad.

Countries fighting Japan are as much the issue as anything. It is showing that Muslims were on the side of the Allies and not the Axis. I see no proof of these secret meetings that you allege happened in Berlin.

The qoute I made was an exageration of a qoute that someone here made. I used a hyperbole to illustrate a point, that you are indeed as racist as you claim anyone who disagrees with you is. They said something along those lines. Look it up if you wish, it's in this thread.

As a colony Palestine was REQUIRED to support their Colonial masters, Brittain.

About grammar I attacked his because it was barely decipherable, whereas I made two minor mistakes.

The Palestinians did not exterminate anyone. If you will recall Palestinians and Jews lived in peace in Palestine before the Brittish mandate making Israel a jewish state. I believe the majority of Muslims was something like 85% Muslims, 5% Jews, 10% Christians at that time.

About the persecution complex, I said Jews have been persecuted and so they suffer a persecution complex. It is fully logical and it is not contradictory. They are paranoid of being persecuted and yet they persecute others.

About Israeli terrorism. They kill innocent civillians do they not? Any answer to that other than a resounding yes is a bold-faced lie. Is killing innocent civillians with military or para-military force not what terrorism is? The answer is yes again. I will ask you this; which side is occupying the others land and has been for the last fifty years?

Batman

05-23-2002, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty

Compare the number of Arab civillians killed in the last three years to that of Israeli civillians, the difference is staggering. If Arabs are the ones doing all the killing why are they also doing all the dying?

PLO propagnda trainee or future leader of death squads...
you choose...
Because you compare apples with oranges... (Israel has wonderful oranges which they grew out of sand...with their bare hard work, Israel is productive and constructive, the Arabs who do not want Israel around are simply a bunch of jealous and depressed people, hostile toward Israel because they do not value how great it is to have a positive open and free society in the middle east.)
Back to apples and oranges which you must learn to stop comparing if you will break out of the PLO school of propaganda and become a free Arab thinker . You may have to give up the cause but you may find out you've got courage to think independently of your unfortunate background.

the apples: Israel has 5 million Jews
the oranges: Arabs have 100,000 million Arabs
the apples: Israel is smaller than New Jersey
The oranges: the Arabs have 22 vast countries
the apples: Israelis who were born in Israel before 1948 are also Palestinians.
the oranges: Palestinians-Arabs who were born in Israel are Palestinian-Arabs. They are Arabs who were born in Palestine.(Arafat was born in Egypt- he has no rights to anything! He's just an opportunist picked by the Arab League of Nations to use the Palestinian society's anguish which was cynically planned AND pre calculated so they will fight against Israel-Palestinians have been programmed by Arab leaders to fight the war against Israel. The reason the Palestinians don't get it, how they are being used is because they are being USED , it's a catch 22.

Check for yourself, you will see the facts if you want to, but if you are beyond repair and totally gone on PLO propaganda go ahead and be a slave, why should I try to save you from allowing your brain to rot on rotten and twisted info created by the diabolical mind of Arafat and his thugs...

In 1948 472,000 Palestinian Arabs fled Israel because the Arabs attacked Israel and these Palestinian-Arabs were planning to return "once the Jews are pushed to the sea"
Now suddenly they number 3.5 million refugees.

Why is it that 600,000 Jews from Arab countries had to flee and were resettled in the tiny land of Israel and 472,000Palestinian Arabs were left to suffer and were refused acceptance, support, resettlement and citizenship from the 22 Arab countries with whom they share a language and religion and family ties?

You know Cruelty, you guys are cruel to yourselves more than you know...those 22 Arab countries should be discussed on Israel Forum because they are GUILTY old men in skirts who have no respect for women,children, human beings, and they like to deflect the attention by using Israel...think about it

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 08:31 PM

100 Million arabs where did you get this number? Thats far more Arabs than are in Palestine and it is far far less than the billion arabs that live in those 22 "vast" (most the size of New York or smaller) countries.

You are trying to save me? How sweet, a pity your misguided views and propaganda laced hypocritical arguments will sway not even the most light-hearted arab supporter, let alone one as staunch as myself.

NewsGuy

05-23-2002, 08:33 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
Is killing innocent civillians with military or para-military force not what terrorism is? The answer is yes again. I will ask you this; which side is occupying the others land and has been for the last fifty years?
First of all, calm down "cruelty." Take a deep breath, exhale, repeat a few dozen times. You'll feel much better.

As for your definition of terrorism, it is utterly and completely wrong. The fact that civilians are killed inadvertently in a military self-defense operation is tragic, but does not amount to terrorism. That's a fact.

Terrorism is when civilians are targeted for violence. For example, when the Islamic terrorists mass murdered 3,000 Americans on 9-11, it was deliberately targeting civilians and therefore terrorism.

When your Arab friends pack a bomb full of nails and shrapnel and detonate it in a pizza store or in a shopping mall, then that is terrorism.

But when Israel and the U.S. target armed militants who commit these attrocities against Israeli and American civilians, then that is a legitimate act of self-defense, even if a handful of civilians are killed inadvertently. Same in Afghanistan and same in Arafatistan.

You should do some soul searching and ask yourself why in the world you would possibly attempt to apologize for mass murderers who deliberately target Israeli children or bomb synagogues.

As for who is occupying whom for 50 years, it is the Arabs who have attempted to conduct a Jihad-genocide of Israelis and of Jews in other countries. Actually, it has gone on for more than 100 years.

I know it upsets you to think that Israel (and probably the U.S.) has a right to fight back against those who attempt to massacre us daily, but all I can say is that I am sorry that survival of Israelis and Americans is not to your liking.

Too bad, "cruelty" that you represent the cruelty of Arab mass murderers and racists bent on destroying Western civilization.

Batman

05-23-2002, 08:33 PM

Staunch
Stanch
Stench

Cruelty

05-23-2002, 08:39 PM

You are the aggressors, the Palestinians are defending themselves. Daily they are forced to endure all the depredations that being oppressed by one's enemy entails. The Palestinians weapons are suicide bombers, Israels are planes, tanks, and bombs. Israel bombs civillian centers, you cannot say with a straight face that deliberately bombing civillian areas with little to no regard for the people living there is not terrorism. They are targetting civillians and you cannot deny that. America does not do the same things Israel does, I have never called Americans terrorists so do not bring America's self-defense into this as I did not bring it up

Israel targets civillians with their riot police who aim for the head and with their planes that aim for civillian residences as surely as Hamas does with it's suicide bombers who aim for restaraunts.

Edit: ROFL BATMAN, Staunch means strong, determined, steadfast. Learn some English you bloody invalid.

Skogan

05-23-2002, 08:57 PM

To cruelty:

Do you agree with the principle that intentionally targeting civilian non-combatants is both a terrorist act and wrong?

For some reason, many of the pro-arab supporters don't make that distinction. A suicide bomber is a terrorist not becuase civillians happened to die, but because their whole objective was to kill them. If they were attacking the military or its instillations, and civilian deaths were an unfortunate consequence, it would be difficult to label them as a terrorist. They would simply be enemies of Israel, which according to your view, is either a good or bad thing.

If israel has killed civilian non-combatants, not as collateral damage, but intentionally as an end into itself, that would be wrong also. That much I readily conceed.

A suicide bomber may be the palestinians only weapon, but they have many possible targets. When they chose to purposely kill civilians, as their primary target, not as collateral damage, they lose the right to simply be called a freedom fighter. They are terrorist. It is uneccessary and wrong.

Skogan

Batman

05-23-2002, 09:15 PM

Eat your own words, you might end up giving birth to an original thought when you get indigestion and ...you can figure out the rest...you are used to bloody this and than some...keep up the GRAMMAR angle, I am enjoying it tremendously, LOL

Isolationator

05-23-2002, 10:23 PM

First order of business: Could someone please tell me what Cruelty said that was so horrible that it had to be censored? I personally am against censorship, but if I knew the story maybe I would understand.

Second order of business: I personally have seen the so called "persecution complex" in action in this forum, and it goes something like this. (example, not a quote) "Jews have been killed and opressed by many peoples and governments throughout history." While I totally agree with that statement, there is more to my example. "Because Jews were so persecuted, they need a land of their own to be free from said persecution." This also makes sense, but, there is yet more. "Jewish historical ties to Palestine mean that Jews should be able to live in Palestine, set up their own government which is opressive to the current residents of Palestine, and use the pretense of defense against said residents of said country to indescriminately kill civilians." THIS IS NOT A LOGICAL STATEMENT TO MAKE!!!! While the first two were perfectly acceptable in my mind, the last IS NOT. Even so, the last statement seems to be exactly the type of thing that several Israel supporters are saying in this forum! These Israel backers seem to reason like this:

Jews have been persecuted -> Jews need their own land so they are not persecuted -> Given 2000 year old historical ties, Jews should make their government in Palestine -> It is alright for this govenment to kill the previous residents of Palestine, because they do not like our government and how it kills them

It is exactly this kind of twisted logic that the whole "persecution complex" rests on. *note* IN NO WAY am I doubting that Jews have been persecuted. I am saying that this does not make what they are doing right.

Third order of business: I strongly resent being called a racist. My arguments are with the Israeli government, and not with the jewish religion in general. I have several jewish friends and i respect their religion very much. In no way do i have a problem with the Jewish faith, or any others.

Fourth order of business: BATMAN, your ineffective reply to my post about your ineffective Mrs. Arafat bashing was INEFFECTIVE. You claim that Yasser Arafat is not a "powerful man" but "a Master mind for evil!" whether or not Mr. Arafat is evil (thats everyones call, not mine although I think he is not) he IS powerful, and if you contest that then you also have to contest every political leader in the ME. Keep in mind that Hitler, while undoubtedly evil, was also extremely powerful, to the point of near world domination. I do no know how you camp up with Saddam Hussein's plot for nuking his own people, thats simply foolish. I also do not know where you camp up with the idea of me "blowing up my kid," thats just as silly as Saddam nuking Iraq. Just because I have a different viewpoint than you, does not mean I am not civilized. I think that suicide bombing is tragic, but it is also one of the most effective weapons available to Palestinians right now. If Palestinians could get a Death Ray or some other fanciful weapon I am sure that they would use that to wage war instead of Suicide Bombers. As to Mrs. Arafat claiming Martyrhood, I don't think she ever pretended to do that. Also, the whole point of my previous post is that yes, she does go to the EU to raise support, I never denied that, nor should I, raising support for your cause is done everywhere and for every cause, why not for Palestine as well?

Fifth order of business: "Israel is productive and constructive, the Arabs who do not want Israel around are simply a bunch of jealous and depressed people, hostile toward Israel because they do not value how great it is to have a positive open and free society in the middle east ." This is a perfect example of the racism that myself and Cruelty are so wrongly accused of, why not censor this Administrators? I notice no Pro-Israel statements have been censored, while Cruelty, a very intelligent and well spoken Palestine supporter have been the only one censored thus far (I fear that I am next)

Final order of business: EVERYONE CUT OUT THE PLO BRAINWASHING CRACKS!!!!!! They are really annoying and totally unfounded. Again, just because I am different does not mean I am Brainwashed

ibrodsky

05-23-2002, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by Isolationator
First order of business: Could someone please tell me what Cruelty said that was so horrible that it had to be censored? I personally am against censorship, but if I knew the story maybe I would understand.

Cruelty made two racist comments. In the first, he labeled Jews as Nazis. In the second, he described genocide as a "Jewish practice." These were blanket statements.

I have saved the original post. If necessary to prove these were racist comments, I'll repost them.

Third order of business: I strongly resent being called a racist. My arguments are with the Israeli government, and not with the jewish religion in general. I have several jewish friends and i respect their religion very much. In no way do i have a problem with the Jewish faith, or any others.

You are right. I should not have lumped you with Cruelty and Le Frenchman. I reviewed your posts and there is not a trace of racism. I sincerely apologize.

ibrodsky

05-24-2002, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Cruelty
NOT A SINGLE COMMENT THAT I MADE THERE COULD BE SEEN AS RACIST, CERTAINLY NOT ENOUGH TO BE DELETED. Your censorship is unwarranted and you only used it to make me look like a racist. I challenge you, put the original comments back, if you can remember them, and all will see that you are being a censoring propaganda spewing nazi by denying people access to non-racist comments I made and making it appear as if I had said something bad.

Well, if I said Arabs are Nazis and "self-pity, racism, elitism, and genocide" are Muslim practices, would I be a racist?

Countries fighting Japan are as much the issue as anything. It is showing that Muslims were on the side of the Allies and not the Axis. I see no proof of these secret meetings that you allege happened in Berlin.

I said several Arab countries supported Nazi Germany. The fact that Asian Muslims did not want to be enslaved by Japan does not absolve Arab countries for supporting Nazi Germany.

Who said the meetings between the Mufti of Jerusalem and Adolph Hitler were "secret"? They are well documented and I can provide photographs of the Mufti with Hitler, plus the Mufti "reviewing" Axis troops.

The qoute I made was an exageration of a qoute that someone here made. I used a hyperbole to illustrate a point, that you are indeed as racist as you claim anyone who disagrees with you is. They said something along those lines. Look it up if you wish, it's in this thread.

You apparently think it is OK to change other peoples' words and then attribute your fabricated statements to them.

elke

05-24-2002, 07:53 AM

("Jewish historical ties to Palestine mean that Jews should be able to live in Palestine, set up their own government which is opressive to the current residents of Palestine, and use the pretense of defense against said residents of said country to indescriminately kill civilians." THIS IS NOT A LOGICAL STATEMENT TO MAKE!!!!

"Jewish historical ties to Palestine mean that Jews should be able to live in Palestine, set up their own government, and defend its citizens from murderous terrorists" - that's the way the argument actually goes, in reality.

Cruelty

05-24-2002, 09:47 AM

What I said "The Jewish practices of genocide, elitism, racism..." implied only that I was speaking particularly of those transgressions as committed by Jews. I was not saying that they were uniquely Jewish principles and I was not saying all Jews practice them. I said that the Israelis are Nazis because they perform many of the same actions that the Nazis did. It is not a racist comment to compare two cultures, even if you disagree with that comparison. I find it funny that my post was censored by my number one detractor, this shows just what kind of "Democracy" Israeli supporters believe in. Freespeech for those who agree with us... There is another facist practice that you have exhibited.

You said: "Well, if I said Arabs are Nazis and "self-pity, racism, elitism, and genocide" are Muslim practices, would I be a racist?"

That is exactly the sort of things supporters of Israel DO call arabs and if you made that statement saying all Arabs were that way then that would be racist. If you wanted to, for instance, put Hizbollah into that category that would be fine but for the most part I see broad sweeping Arab bashing on this forum. Accusing ALL arabs of teaching their children to kill themselves, being anti-Semitical, and supporting Nazi Germany (which I proved false with my examples of Arabs not supporting the Nazis but you dismissed those examples and went on to say all Arabs were against the allies). When you say "the arabs" that means all of them, do not deny a true statement that proves you wrong just because it makes you look bad.

I do not think it is ok to change peoples words that is why I gave no name for the qoute. I was merely presenting what the mood of the pro-Israel community seems to be here. On that note Ibrodsky changed my words in blatant censorship of something not even racist. Even if it were racist, you don't censor the racism spewed by the Arab-hating Israeli supporters on this forum so why for the Arab Supporters?

Lastly, Batman why do you even read these forums? Clearly it strains your brain and your pathetic arguments only hurt the cause of your intelligent and eloquent (for the most part) comrades. I mentioned that your grammar was atrocious ONCE and that was a truer statement than any that could be made. You have since jumped on that comment, as you obviously do not possess the wit to take a crack at my political views, and have still not even made a single valid point against me with that method. I encourage you to leave the forums before you make a further ass of yourself. Find consolation in your morning cartoons, learn some English, learn some politics, and maybe in 5 years return here; by that time hopefully groomed enough to carry on a conversation.

Iori Yagami

05-24-2002, 10:10 AM

It is funny that you can`t even stand behind your own words.

ibrodsky

05-24-2002, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
What I said "The Jewish practices of genocide, elitism, racism..." implied only that I was speaking particularly of those transgressions as committed by Jews. I was not saying that they were uniquely Jewish principles and I was not saying all Jews practice them. I said that the Israelis are Nazis because they perform many of the same actions that the Nazis did. It is not a racist comment to compare two cultures, even if you disagree with that comparison. I find it funny that my post was censored by my number one detractor, this shows just what kind of "Democracy" Israeli supporters believe in. Freespeech for those who agree with us... There is another facist practice that you have exhibited.

You called genocide a "Jewish practice" and accused Jews of being Nazis. There was nothing in the deleted statements to indicate you were only referring to particular Jews or Israelis.

No one has prevented you from expressing your opinions. But IsraelForum is not obligated to assist your effort to slander the Jewish people.

You said: "Well, if I said Arabs are Nazis and "self-pity, racism, elitism, and genocide" are Muslim practices, would I be a racist?"

That is exactly the sort of things supporters of Israel DO call arabs and if you made that statement saying all Arabs were that way then that would be racist.

I'm glad you agree that statement is racist. Now, replace "Arabs" with "Jews" and "Muslim" with "Jewish" and you have the essence of your own deleted statements.

If you wanted to, for instance, put Hizbollah into that category that would be fine but for the most part I see broad sweeping Arab bashing on this forum. Accusing ALL arabs of teaching their children to kill themselves, being anti-Semitical, and supporting Nazi Germany (which I proved false with my examples of Arabs not supporting the Nazis but you dismissed those examples and went on to say all Arabs were against the allies). When you say "the arabs" that means all of them, do not deny a true statement that proves you wrong just because it makes you look bad.

No one said "all Arabs." No one said suicide bombing is a "Muslim practice." No one said you can't criticize or even accuse Jews in general. But that doesn't give you license to slander.

Accusing Jews of being Nazis is a cruel and sick joke invented by Israel's enemies. Jews do not operate work camps and gas chambers. Israel does not teach its children that Arabs are an inferior race to be subjugated and slaughtered. Israel is not trying to conquer the Middle East.

If you had ancestors, as I and others here do, who were systematically slaughtered by the Nazis, you would not make such hateful comments. I once had a neighbor who was a Nazi concentration camp survivor. She was forced by the Nazis to watch her parents being burned alive. The Nazis delighted in watching their victims suffer and even performed horrendous "medical experiments" on them. To say Jews are Nazis is to suggest that Jews are doing this sort of thing today, which is a big fat lie.

I do not think it is ok to change peoples words that is why I gave no name for the qoute. I was merely presenting what the mood of the pro-Israel community seems to be here. On that note Ibrodsky changed my words in blatant censorship of something not even racist. Even if it were racist, you don't censor the racism spewed by the Arab-hating Israeli supporters on this forum so why for the Arab Supporters?

To invent hateful and racist remarks and then present that as a quote is dishonest. You weren't trying to illustrate the pro-Israel view, you were purposely distorting it in a cheap attempt at impugning your opponents.

Pathfinder

05-24-2002, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
I said Jews have been persecuted and so they suffer a persecution complex. It is fully logical and it is not contradictory. They are paranoid of being persecuted and yet they persecute others.

About Israeli terrorism. They kill innocent civillians do they not? Any answer to that other than a resounding yes is a bold-faced lie. Is killing innocent civillians with military or para-military force not what terrorism is? The answer is yes again.

Define persecute and support your allegation. You are like Takeo and others here that focus on small facts, take them out of context and use them to define broad, totally unsupported accusations and generalities.

As for terrorism, the answer to your last question is no. You again take facts out of context to create your own false definitions. It is your effort to create the illusion that the efforts of the IDF to defend itself from evil is the same as that evil.

Imagine a police officer who rescues a group of women and children being murdered by a criminal. In the process of the rescue one of the children is accidently shot and killed along with the criminal. Is the policeman now a murderer like the criminal? That is the exact logic of moral equivalence you are using. You say intentional killing of women and children is no different than accidental killing.

Bottom line is I don't think you believe your own arguement. Like many others here like Takeo, reason, logic and facts do not conform to your views so you resort to unsupported allegations, changing of definitions, and twisting of logic.

Skogan

05-24-2002, 02:22 PM

Terrorism is NOT killing innocent women and children. They have been the victim of conflicts from time immemorial. It is sad, but it is not the definition of terrorim.

The geneva convention recognized that non-combatants will sometime die in a conflict. No battle could be fought if all innocent lives lost were considered illegal.

Instead, the distinction that is used in the U.S. military, militaries around the world, supported by the geneva convention is as follows:

To intentionally target noncombatants is illegal. If you have a legitimate military target, and innocent bystanders are killed, that is sad, but not illegal.

Suicide bomber are terrorist not becuase they use bombs, or commit suicide. Not even because innocent bystanders are killed. They are terrorist because their objective is to kill the innocent bystanders. There is no other target for which the civilians are collateral damage.

If you want to make the claim that the IDF are using terrorist tactics, you can't simply point to the fact that innocent bystanders are killed. You must prove that killing the innocent bystanders was their objective. That they werent collateral damage from an attack on another target.

That distinction is well recognized around the world, except in this conflict for some reason. Intentionally targeting civilians as an end unto itself is not the moral equivalent of killing a civilian as the unfortunate by-product of an attack upon a legitimate target.

Skogan

ibrodsky

05-24-2002, 03:55 PM

Great post, Skogan.

Yet this simple fact, that Palestinians intentionally target innocent civilians -- largely kids and elderly -- is constantly obfuscated by Palestinian supports.

Recently I heard a PA rep on TV arguing that suicide bombers were simply fulfilling Patrick Henry's slogan, "Give me liberty or give me death!" What an incredible distortion of a noble sentiment. US revolutionaries didn't target innocent civilians. But this is how twisted these people are -- and the 80% of the world that has swallowed their defense of evil hook, line, and sinker.

elke

05-24-2002, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by ibrodsky

Recently I heard a PA rep on TV arguing that suicide bombers were simply fulfilling Patrick Henry's slogan, "Give me liberty or give me death!"

I think that was Hassan Abdul Rahman. I have seen him on TV many times, and can quote his answers to ALL potential questions verbatim. Whatever they are paying him is too much, since his function could easily, - and more aesthetically, - be fulfilled by a nice, cheap macaw parrot and some seeds.

elke

05-24-2002, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by Cruelty
You are the aggressors, the Palestinians are defending themselves. Daily they are forced to endure all the depredations that being oppressed by one's enemy entails. The Palestinians weapons are suicide bombers, Israels are planes, tanks, and bombs. Israel bombs civillian centers, you cannot say with a straight face that deliberately bombing civillian areas with little to no regard for the people living there is not terrorism. They are targetting civillians and you cannot deny that. America does not do the same things Israel does, I have never called Americans terrorists so do not bring America's self-defense into this as I did not bring it up

Israel targets civillians with their riot police who aim for the head and with their planes that aim for civillian residences as surely as Hamas does with it's suicide bombers who aim for restaraunts.

1. Lather
2. Rinse
3. Wipe hands on pants
4. Repeat

maybe one day you will believe it.

Batman

05-25-2002, 11:05 PM

ok.
If you are receptive to Jews to the point you mentioned than I would appreciate it if you reviewed the history again and consider these facts with an open mind.
It's a little long, but it may be of interest.
I really hope you are serious about what you said because I am very interested in having a more productive discussion since the events in the Mid east are very serious and terror is everyone's problem.
However, I am highly disturbed that you consider suicide bombing anything but vile. You need to understand what that tactic actually means. The question you should still ask yourself (if you really are sincere about wanting to understand) is : would you do that to your child if you had no other way to fight? would you take the baby you raised and the kid that is your family and send him/her out to die? How come the Jews of the Holocaust didn't kille themselves and their kids while blowing up the nazis? there were all kinds of resistances but no one committed suicide and killed their own kids. If anything people fought like mad to save their kids through any means. If you think desperation is the problem of the Palestinian-Arabs than think how much worse the Jews had it? Why the difference in dealing with the problem? The Palestinian Arabs have so much more going for them than the Jews ever did...Why the difference? Why are they so brutal to their own people, no one would bother them if they would just stop blowing themselves up with the Israelis as their target!

Now, here is that long history, made as short as possible.

The Middle East conflict is not about Israel's occupation of the territories. It is about the refusal of the Arabs to make peace with Israel, which is inevitable by-product of their desire to destroy it.

In 1920s the British and French created the states that now define the Middle East out of the ashes of the empire of the defeated Turkish Empire. They drew the boundaries of new states, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. The British had previously promised the Jewish Zionists a "national home" in the remaining area, known as Palestine Mandate. In 1921 the British separated 80% of the Mandate, east of Jordan River and created the Arab kingdom:"Transjordan." It was created for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian peninsula and he lacked a seat of power. Abdullah's tribe was Hashemite while the vast majority of Abdullah's subjects were Palestinian Arabs.

What was left of the original Palestine Mandate-between the west bank of Jordan and the Mediterranean sea had been settled by Arabs and Jews. The Jews, continuously lived in that area for 3,700 years, even after the Romans destroyed their state in 70A.D. Arabs became a dominant local population for the first time in the 7th Century A.D. as a result of the Muslim invasions. These Arabs were largely nomads who had no distinctive language or culture to separate them from other Arabs. In all the time since, they had made no attempt to create an independent Palestinian state west or east of the Jordan and none was ever established.

The Nazi Holocaust created great pressure for a Jewish homeland since not even the US or Britain opened their borders for the Jews to escape from Nazi Europe.

Under the partition plan the Arabs were given the Jews' ancient home in Judea and Samaria- not known as the West Bank and the Gaza Strip on the border of Egypt. The Jews were allotted 3 slivers of disconnected land along the Mediterranean and the Sinai desert. They were also given access to their holy city of Jerusalem but as an island cut off from the slivers, surrounded by Arab land and under international control. 60% of the land allotted to the Jews was the Negev desert. the entire portion represented only about 10% of the Palestine Mandate. Out of these unpromising parts, the Jews created a new state, Israel, in 1948. At this time - the idea of a Palestinian nation, or a movement to create one did not even exist.

Thus, at the moment of Israel's birth, Palestinian Arabs lived on roughly 90% of the original Palestine Mandate- in Trans Jordan and in the UN partition area, but also in the new state of Israel itself. There were 800,000 Arabs living in Israel alongside 650,000 Jews. At the same time Jews were legally barred from settling in the 35,000 square miles of Palestinian Trans Jordan which eventually was renamed simply as Jordan.

The Arab population in the slivers called Israel had actually more than tripled since the Zionists first began to settle the area in the 1880s. The reason for this was because the Jewish settles had brought industrial and agricultural development with them, which attracted Arab immigrant.

If the Palestinian Arabs had been willing to accept this arrangement in which they received 90% of the land in the Palestine Mandate, and under which they benefited from the industry, enterprise and political democracy the Jews brought to the region, there would have been no Middle East conflict.

But they were not.

Instead...the Arab League- representing 5 neighboring Arab states, declared war on Israel on the day of its creation and 5 Arab armies invaded the slivers with the aim of destroying the infant Jewish State. During the fighting according to the UN mediator on the scene, an estimated 472,000 Arabs fled their homes and left the infant state. Some fled to escape dangers, others were driven out by the heat of the war. They planned on returning after an Arab victory and the destruction of the Jewish state-an outcome their leaders promised.

Batman

05-25-2002, 11:08 PM

The Palestinians and their supporters claim that the Middle East conflict is about the Palestinians' yearning for a state and the refusal of Israel to accept their aspiration. This claim is false. The Palestine Liberation Organization was created in 1964, sixteen years after the establishment of Israel and the first anti-Israel war. The PLO, however, was not created so that the Palestinians could achieve self-determination in Jordan, which at the time comprised 90% of the original Palestine Mandate. the PLO 's expressed purpose, in the words of its own leaders, was to "push the Jews into the sea."

The official charter of the new Palestinian Liberation Organization referred to the "Zionist invasion" declared that Israel's Jews were "not an independent nationality," described Zionism as" racist" and "fascist" called for the "liquidation of the Zionist presence" and specified "armed struggle is the only way to liberate Palestine." In short, "liberation" requires the destruction of the Jewish State. To this day, the PLO covenant continues to call for the destruction of Israel, not to mention the calls for the destruction of Israel in every part of the PA's system, education, religion, media. summer camps, suicide bombers' families' monetary support by various Arab nations and organizations. (seeseeds of hatred (http://www.mideasttruth.com) video and others. Read a research study of a comparison of Palestinian and Israeli school textbooks Newsletter, May 2002, is now on the site (http://www.edume.org/new/index.htm)

The PLO was not even created by Palestinians but by the Arab League- the corrupt dictators who ruled the Middle East and who had attempted to destroy Israel by military force in 1948, in 1967 and again in 1973.

Additionally, the Palestinians' determination to destroy Israel is abundantly clear in their newly created demand of a "right to return" to Israel for 5 million Arabs. The figure of 5 million refugees who must be returned to Israel is more than ten times the number of Arabs who actually left the Jewish slivers of the British Mandate in 1948.

In addition to its absurdity, this new demand has several aspects that reveal the Palestinians' genocidal agenda for the Jews. The first is the "right of return" is itself a calculated mockery of the prime reason for Israel's existence- the fact that no country would provide a refuge for the Jews fleeing Hitler's extermination program during World War II. It is only because the world turned its back on the Jews when their survival was at stake that the state of Israel grants a "right of return" to every Jew that asks for it.

But there is no genocidal threat to Arabs, no lack of international support militarily and economically and no Palestinian "diaspora" ( although the Palestinians have cynically appropriated the very term to describe their self-inflicted quandary.)

The fact that many Arabs, including the Palestinian spiritual leader- the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem - supported Hitler's "Final Solution" only serves to compound the insult. It is even further compounded by the fact that more than 90% of the Palestinians now in the West Bank and Gaza have never lived a day of their lives in territorial Israel. The claim of a "right of return" is thus little more than a brazen expression of contempt for the Jews and for their historical suffering. Arafat himself was born in Egypt.

More importantly, it is an expression of contempt for the very idea of a Jewish State. The incorporation of 5 million Arabs into Israel would render the Jews a permanent minority in their own country and would thus spell the end of Israel. The Arabs fully understand this and that is why they have made this a fundamental demand- that is why Yasser Arafat walked out on the Summer 2000, Camp David negotiations with Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Barak after being offered the West Bank and 1/2 of Jerusalem -Yasser Arafat walked out and went ahead to declare the new Intifada in September of 2000 - because he realized that the only way to fulfill his dream of destroying the Jewish State is by war and terror. He realized that he could not destroy Israel unless he runs it over with his people, so he decided to unleash his terror and suicide homicide population.

The most glaring expression of Arabs' bad faith can be seen in their deplorable treatment of the Palestinian refugees and their refusal of over 1/2 century to relocate them and improve their condition, even while they were under Jordanian rule. While Israel was making the desert bloom and relocating 600,000 Jewish refugees from the Arab states, and building a thriving industrial democracy in the allotted sliver, the Arabs were busy making sure their refugees remain in squalid refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza where they were powerless, have no rights and are economically destitute.

Today, 50 years after the first Arab was against Israel there are 59 such refugee camps and 3.7 million 'refugees" registered with the UN. Despite economic aid from the UN and Israel itself, despite the oil wealth of the Arab kingdoms, the Arab leaders have refused to undertake the efforts that would liberate the refugees from their miserable camps, or to make the economic investment that would alleviate their condition. There are now 22 Arab states providing homes for the same ethnic population, speaking a common Arabic language. But the only on that will allow the Palestinian Arabs to become citizens is Jordan. In Jordan Palestinians already have a state in which they are a majority but which denies them self determination. This is because the ruling class is of the tribe of Hashemite. Why is Jordan not the object of Palestinian "liberation" struggle? The only possible answer is because it is not ruled by Jews. The only state the Palestinians covet is Israel.

The refusal to address the condition of the Palestinian refugee population is- and has always been- a calculated Arab policy, intended to keep the Palestinian Arabs in a state of desperation in order to incite their hatred of Israel for the wars to come.

Not to leave anything to chance, the mosques and schools of the Arabs generally, and the Palestinians in particular- preach and teach Jew hatred every day. Elementary school children in Palestinian Arab schools are taught to chant "Death to the infidel Jews" as they are learning to read. The television programs such as 'The Childrens' Club' looks innocent enough until you realize the children are singing about dying as a suicide bomber and about conqueing all of Israel. The summer camps of the Palestinian Arab children train them for war fare complete with fire arms suicide mission courses. Yet both these policies of depriving the Palestinian Arabs and teaching Jew-hatred goes on without protest from any sector of the Arab world. This should speak volumes for the true nature of the Middle East conflict

This is not conventional war as we are conditioned to think. This is the new war of the 21st century originated by the madman Arafat and the League of Arab Nations -where there are no defensible lines and no rules of war conduct- where children are sent to die (with their own mothers' blessings!) while exploding in supermarkets and pizza places.

We need to rethink the problem urgently, rather than repeating an old Arab-Palestinian media propaganda-pushed message about the myth of 'occupation' etc., which is meant to cover the true intention behind it of destroying Israel and killing Jews. Israel is just the testing ground for militant terror Islamic movements. If Israel is to be defeated than all other democracies will follow. The Islamic terror machine is watching. Since Israel pulled out of Lebanon, Islamic terror acts steadily increased in both sophistication and quantity, encouraged by the terror organization Hizbolla's claim that they defeated Israel.

If we don't understand the message coming from the militant Islam world by now after 9/11 then we are truly very naive. Just as Hitler fooled eveybody while he was rising to power and was signing 'peace' treaties with every democracy in the world, we are witnessing the process of history repeating itself - We should try to do something before it's too late- and too late not just for Jews and Israel but for the free world.

Forums like this one would not exist without risking one's life for speaking what's on one's mind- not to speak of what would happen to anyone who is not Moslem -who is considered an "infidel" - if it were up to Arafat the Terrorist and the Palestinian Arab terror regime which regularely executes people.
http://www.rootofevil.com/tyranny/default.php?image=3
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/402

danielson

05-27-2002, 01:17 PM

well syria chritisized Irsael for her behaviour and Isreal cried anti-semites anti-semites. The syrians genlty reminded them that they are semitic as well. :rolleyes:

how comes alot of USA's enemys seem to be alot of semitic or persian in origon.

ibrodsky

05-27-2002, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by danielson
well syria chritisized Irsael for her behaviour and Isreal cried anti-semites anti-semites. The syrians genlty reminded them that they are semitic as well. :rolleyes:

how comes alot of USA's enemys seem to be alot of semitic or persian in origon.

Syria's dictator said that Jews killed Jesus, which is a big fat lie. He said this in front of the Pope, who said nothing, even though the official position of the Catholic Church is that Jews did not kill Jesus (who was a Jew).

So what if they are "semitic"? The term "anti-semitism" means hatred of Jews.

Gee, "Danielson," you sure does speaks good Englash.

Batman

05-29-2002, 03:40 AM

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY DANIELLSON
how comes alot of USA's enemys seem to be alot of semitic or persian in origon.

Your question ought to be: "how comes alot of USA's enemys seem to be alot of Arab-Muslim in origon."

Well, it so happened that the people who murdered Americans on 9/11 were all of Arab and Muslim origin...and there were many previous terror attacks against the US which were conducted by Arabs against US.

The answer is:
Because Arab-Muslims have the following reasons, to name JUST a few: It's enough that their dictators (who oppress the Arab-Muslims, but are listened to anyway) tell them that it's the United States and Israel that are the reason for all that is bad for Arabs. The Arabs are paid $25,000 AFTER they kill themselves which makes sense to an Arab-Muslim BECAUSE - in paradise there wait for him (or her???) 72 virgins (or virgons, if you prefer to spell according to your own interpretation of the English language.)

elke

05-29-2002, 08:00 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by danielson
well syria chritisized Irsael for her behaviour and Isreal cried anti-semites anti-semites. The syrians genlty reminded them that they are semitic as well. :rolleyes:

That doesn't surprise me. Syrians are notorious for their semantic masturbation.

how comes alot of USA's enemys seem to be alot of semitic or persian in origon.

I did not know that "alot" of USA's enemies are "alot of semitic or persian" in the great state of OREGON! :D Tsk, tsk, tsk - and right in this country! :confused:

L@mplighterM

05-29-2002, 10:04 AM

Posted on Wed, May. 29, 2002

Muslim schools in U.S. legally allowed teach anti-Semitism

MYTH

``Muslim schools in the United States teach tolerance of Judaism and other faiths, and promote coexistence with Israel.''

FACT

While it is well known that many Muslim schools in Arab and Islamic countries indoctrinate students with hatred of Jews and Israel, it was only recently revealed that similar teachings are prevalent in the United States. Islamic schools in Virginia, for example, have maps of the Middle East in their classrooms that are missing Israel. On one map, Israel was blackened out and replaced with ''Palestine.'' An 11th-grade textbook teaches that one sign of the Day of Judgment will be that Muslims will fight and kill Jews, who will hide behind trees that say, ''Oh Muslim, Oh servant of God, here is a Jew hiding behind me. come here and kill him'' (Washington Post, Feb. 25, 2002).

The attacks are not only against Jews, but also Christians. Students are taught, for example that the Day of Judgment won't come until Christ returns, breaks the cross and converts everyone to Islam.

The schools are legally allowed to teach whatever they want as long as they meet state requirements.

Source: Myths & Facts Online -- A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, edited by Mitchell G. Bard.

http://www.miami.com/mld/jewishstartimes/news/3353021.htm

Batman

05-29-2002, 11:45 AM

Very good piece of info. unbelievable.

I wonder if we pay taxes for some of these schools too, if they are state funded, or receive any benefits through state educational systems..

Isolationator

05-29-2002, 09:33 PM

First of all, I apologize for being away, for I could not monitor the drivel that BATMAN was posting in my absence. BATMAN, you make several glaringly obvious errors in your long and unnessesary posts. I strive here to make them obvious to our peers here in the forum, maybe someone will ban you or force some learning on you or something.

1: Never did I say I was "receptive to Jews" (I take this to mean that you thought I said I was open minded towards the Israeli argument, however I am not ) I have reviewed the history many times, and although most of your description was in some way correct, it was largely inconsequential.

2: Your description of the usage of suicide bombing was also incorrect. While it is a proven fact that suicide bombers are indoctrinated, not all who are indoctrinated become suicide bombers. This is a critical distinction that you fail utterly to make. Also, you described the differences between the resistance to the Holocaust by the Jews and Palestinian resistance to the Israelis. To this I say: the two situations are completely different. Also, the Jewish faith does not teach that Martydom is a way to Heaven, if it did I have no doubt in my mind that there actually would have been some suicide bombing on behalf of the Jews.

3:Yes, the Holocaust DID cause great pressure for a Jewish homeland, but it is not impressive that the US or UK didn't just open their borders, seeing as how it would have been unpractical in a political sense to accept them. If they did that, every war stricken person would be clamoring for a new home in these countries. You also accuse the world of turning their backs on the Jews during WW2, and I have a reason for this. It ism very simple, they did not want to incur Hitler's wrath. Surely you must understand that any nation harboring Jews would have been targeted for invasion, only because of the Jewish presence there. No nation wanted to be targeted like this, so they refused the Jews asylum.

4:I should remind you and all who claim historical ties to Palestine mean that the Jewish state is justified there that maintaining a minority ethnic presence does not in any way guarantee a right to establish in that area. Were this the case, then the International community should have awarded control of American to the Indians long ago.

5:As you quoted the PLO charter armed struggle IS the only visible way to liberate Palestine from the Israelis. Going to the UN has not worked for the Palestinians, nor has repeated pleas with numerous world powers, the only thing the Palestine gets is half hearted "support" if it can be called that, while Israel gets a thriving economic tie with America for their 2nd rate missiles which America does not even need.

6:For anyone with doubts, Zionism is ACTUALLY racist and facist, it calls for the establishment of a Jewish state in israel no matter the cost to the current residents. If this isn't facist then nothing is.

7:I wonder, if Israel is actually a democracy, as you claim, then why would they bar Arabs from entering the country? What is wrong with an Arab majority, in a purely governmental sense?? Is the purpose of a government naught but to serve its people? If the people of Israel were mostly Arab, wouldn't the democracy strive to serve this majority the best it could? The answer to this quandry is that Israel is actually a facist state based on a class system which puts all Arabs on the bottom of the ladder.

8:you claim that there is no genocidal threat to Arabs, I would argue two points on this. One, there is also NO such threat to Jews anymore, I have heard of no cases of jews being wholesale exterminated in contemporary times. Two, there IS such a threat to Palestinians, it comes directly from Israel!!

9: you wonder why Palestinians are not struggling for liberation from Jordan, and I have no doubts in my mind why you wonder. It is because you refuse time and time again to look at the facts. Israel, not Jordan is the country the the Palestinians fleed/ were forced from. Palestine, NOT Jordan is their home country. It is Israel they covet because that is the thing that was taken away from them. Therefore, it is NOT the only possible answer that Israel is ruled by Jews. The situation would be the same if Israel were instead a Confucianist state.

10: Children are never sent to die, it is always men, and always men of adult age (as the "adult age" is qualified by their culture.)
They are also not "sent" to die, they willingly and happily choose to do so. There is no one forcing this role on suicide bombers. Plenty of Palestinians are NOT suicide bombers.

11:Occupation is NOT NOT NOT a myth!!!!!!!!! It is a fact which is actually occurring all over Arab controlled Palestine AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Whoever calls occupation a myth is in the same category as all the morons who call the Holocaust a myth.

12:Your sensationalist claims that Israel is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak of the Militant Islamic Evil Superpower is totally unfounded. In no way has any militant Islamic organization made advances on world domination, nor have they expressed any desire for any place other than Israel. Your comparison of Hitler to the Islamic world is equally unfounded and totally wrong anyways. Whereas Hitler signed numerous "Land for Peace" agreements (which he subsequently broke to get more land) the Islamic world has made no such treaties. In fact, they have been totally steadfast in their sole desire: to liberate Palestine from the Israelis.

13:This is specifically for BATMAN: YOU ARE NOT RISKING ANYTHING BY POSTING IN THIS FORUM. FOR ONE, THIS FORUM IS CONFIDENTIAL, YOU NEED NOT PUT ANY PERSONAL INFORMATION ON IT. SECOND, YOU LIVE IN AMERICA!!!!!!!!! YOU ARE NOT IN DANGER FROM ANYONE FOR POSTING ON THIS SITE!!!!!!!! Conclusion: BATMAN has made numerous racist comments involving Islam as a religion and Arabs as a blanket term for very different peoples. In addition to these blanket statements (which are forgivable as a consequence of BATMAN's apparent lack of eloquence in presenting his arguments) He made a specific comparison between Muslims and Hitler in reference to a grand Islamic plot to overthrow the free world, just the sort of blanket reference that Cruelty was censored for I believe. I move that BATMAN be censored , if not for his racism, then for his utter, blinding foolishness. :mad:

NewsGuy

05-29-2002, 10:27 PM

Hopefully soon I'll have more time to respond to the rest of the mistaken points you made, Isolationator.

But as for your attack on Batman, would you please point out a racist comment from him, i.e., which post exactly is your quote from?

I think it is fair to say that extremist Islam does, indeed, share many similarities with Nazism, and that there is a great deal of Nazi-like rhetoric in Muslim countries. This Arab and Islamic anti-Semitism, as well as the calls for a Jihad-genocide of the Jews is often encouraged by the officials and clerics of those countries and widely adopted by the general populations. And we have also seen Nazi-like caricatures of Jews in the official Arab press and Nazi-like blood-libel against Jews, as well.

So, I don't think that Batman is way off base in his comparison to Nazism. Nonetheless, racist comments are prohibited by this forum's Rules of the Road, as are personal attacks. And of course, we know that not all Arabs and other Muslims are anti-Semitic.

I'll also say this in response to your own allegations of racism against Israel: You are completely mistaken.

The Balfour Declaration and UN Resolution 181 call expressly for Israel to be a Jewish State. However, at the same time, Israel also has a large Muslim minority which is granted full rights under the law.

On the other hand, Jews have always been treated as worse than second-class citizens in Arab and Muslim countries and suffered tremendous racism and bigotry.

Even till this very day, Jews living in the Islamic Republic of Iran are under constant threat of violence and live like prisoners in their own homes.

And Saudi Arabia is another example of official Muslim racism. For example, in that Muslim country, Jews and Christians are not even allowed to set foot in many places, and are barred from owning land and denied citizenship -- solely based on religious discrimination. As the "guardians of Islam," this is a clear example of a racist Muslim country.

Also, as you probably know very well, the Palestinian authority has decreed that any Palestinian caught selling land to Jews, will be beheaded and have their decapitated body thrown in middle of the public marketplace in broad daylight.

Given these facts of Nazi-like behavior of Arab countries and open racism, I find it strange that you would criticize Israel, which grants its Muslim citizens full democratic rights under the law.

eyes-opened

05-29-2002, 11:40 PM

The meaning of words comes from usage, not the other way around.

Thus, while dictionary says 'Semites' means both arabs and jews, anti-Semitism has never been used to refer to hatred of people from the Middle East, per se, but to Jews, in the Middle East and in Yonkers. It is ironic that the anti-Semitic cartoons in the Arab press seem invariably to feature little guys with big noses, though if prone to irony one could comment that little guys with big noses shouldn't throw stones. The anti-Semitic caricatures loved by the Nazis were picked up by their fellow travellers in the Middle East, most prominent of whom was Al-Husseini, the Mufti of jerusalem, creator of the Waffen SS divisions in Bosnia and Kosovo - the most brutal anywhere - and perhaps the main leader of the Palestinian struggle in 1948. He and his associates imported the nazi stereotypes which include, ironically, caricatures that fit all Semites.

The point is, love is blind, ditto hatred and so yes, indeed, the anti-Semitism in which Arabs can and all to often do indulge ironically includes images that might look like caricatures of some Arabs as well as of some Jews.

Jared

PS For sticklers, here's the dictionary:

anti-Semitism

anti-Semitism (àn´tê-sèm´î-tîz´em, àn´tì-) noun
1. Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
2. Discrimination against Jews.

AND:

sophistry

sophistry (sòf´î-strê) noun
plural sophistries
1. Plausible but fallacious argumentation.
2. A plausible but misleading or fallacious argument.

Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.

eyes-opened

05-30-2002, 12:09 AM

WASHINGTON POST February 25, 2002, Monday, Final Edition
(Had to cut a little from middle and end to keep it under 10,000 characters...)

A SECTION; Pg. A01

Where Two Worlds Collide; Muslim Schools Face Tension of Islamic, U.S. Views

BYLINE: Valerie Strauss and Emily Wax

Eleventh-graders at the elite Islamic Saudi Academy in Northern Virginia study energy and matter in physics, write out differential equations in precalculus and read stories about slavery and the Puritans in English.

Then they file into their Islamic studies class, where the textbooks tell them the Day of Judgment can't come until Jesus Christ returns to Earth, breaks the cross and converts everyone to Islam, and until Muslims start attacking Jews.

...

The growth of the Muslim population in the United States in the past two decades has prompted a proliferation of day schools, with about a dozen located between Richmond and Baltimore. Nationally, there are estimated to be 200 to 600 of these schools, with at least 30,000 students. Thousands of others attend Islamic weekend schools.

Most Muslim children in the United States attend public schools, but there is a growing desire for more day schools. Some schools face the same prejudices that Catholics and their schools did beginning in the 1800s, when their loyalty to the pope was seen as inherently anti-American.

"We put Catholics through that, Jews through that, Mormons through that and many other groups," Mansuri said. "It is the Muslims' turn . . . and if Muslims are not living up to the ideas of Islam, then we certainly should take them to task."

To that end, some Muslim educators are writing a new curriculum that infuses tenets of the religion in every lesson while providing a broad-minded worldview. Textbooks, often from overseas and rife with anti-American rhetoric, are being replaced in some schools. Some parents are forming PTAs and seeking a curriculum that teaches the civic virtues of tolerance and pluralism.

"I wouldn't be surprised if some teachers are sometimes anti-American or anti-Semitic," said Abdulwahab Alkebsi, whose 12-year-old daughter attends the Islamic Saudi Academy. "But I don't want it to be that way.

"I choose the school because of the same reason why all American parents choose private schools -- it's a better environment and no peer pressure of drugs and being a sex symbol at too young an age. But there are other American values -- like freedom of speech and assembly -- that we should be teaching our kids to respect."

Ali Alkhafaji, 9, a fourth-grader, poses a question for his classmates at the Washington Islamic Academy, echoing a lesson from their teacher:

"Is it better to be a fashion star or to listen to Allah?"

The youngsters agreed it was better to listen to God, though wide-eyed India Abdullah, 8, said: "It's hard to be a good Muslim. But if we do the right deeds and stuff, the devil is locked up and the door of heaven is unlocked."

Yet the pictures of Britney Spears and the Islamic holy city of Mecca adorning the lockers and notebooks of two Muslim schools in Springfield attest to the challenge of providing an Islamic education amid the beckoning popular culture.

In fact, many such schools are not considered by Muslims to be truly "Islamic" because there is not yet a curriculum that teaches all subjects through an Islamic prism -- nor is there an Americanized curriculum for Islamic studies, said Hamed El-Ghazali, head of the Muslim American Society's Council on Islamic Schools.

Instead, they use public school curriculum and add classes in Islamic studies, Arabic language and the study of the Koran.

The schools "do have a lot of growing to do," said Sharifa Al-Khateeb, president of the Muslim Education Council and the North American Council for Muslim Women. "They are still working out the exact curriculum. They are still working out how much readiness they would like to see in the children for taking mainstream exams. They are still going through the throes of rewriting materials that would be more appropriate for kids here in the U.S."

With the exception of one network of schools for African American Muslims, most Muslim schools develop their own approach.

At the coeducational New Horizon School in Los Angeles, Principal Shahida Alikhan said the school is "on the progressive side," with teachers stressing tolerance and students feeling connected to the outside world.

In Springfield, Islamic studies teacher Majida Zeiter described a different role for the Washington Islamic Academy, serving kindergarten through fourth-grade students.

"We want it to be a place where they don't have to assimilate, where they can practice their religion. It's like any other religious school," Zeiter said. "We teach them the history and good values and what it takes to be a good Muslim."

Still, Zeiter said she takes pains to present balanced lessons to students, piecing together a curriculum from books published both in the United States and overseas.

When she feels she must use material in a popular Pakistani textbook, she said, she makes photocopies of pages she needs and never uses those calling Christian beliefs "nonsense" or portraying Jews as treacherous people who financially "oppress" others. Yahiya Emerick, the author of "What Islam Is All About," said he will soon release a new edition for U.S. audiences that eliminates the tendentious parts.

Political views, though, pervade the school.

Third-graders at the academy spent one recent morning learning how volcanoes work and where the Great Smoky Mountains and Yosemite National Park are.

Yet on world maps that hang every day in the classrooms, Israel is missing. Upstairs in Al-Qalam girls school, the word is blackened out with marker, with "Palestine" written in its place.

Officials at the two schools defended the maps, pointing out that some of the students are refugees from Palestine and want their heritage represented.

The schools, they said, have no anti-Israeli policy, or any policy teaching students to be disrespectful of others, saying Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. If teachers are slipping opinions into lessons, they say, it is because they lack proper qualifications. The average salary at Muslim schools across the country is about $ 16,000.

In a history class at Al-Qalam, Jill Fawzy teaches events from the Revolutionary War to the Civil War. But even before Sept. 11, a major topic of conversation had been what Muslims consider the U.S. government's unfair treatment of Muslims abroad, particularly in the West Bank and Iraq. Given their distrust of U.S. policy, some students question the government's claim that bin Laden is responsible for the terrorist attacks -- disputing that videotapes actually show him taking credit.

Fawzy, a 19-year-old who will graduate from George Mason University in 2003, said she isn't so sure and wonders whether the United States just needed someone to blame and picked a Muslim.

"A lot of the students can't make up their minds if he is a good guy or a bad guy," Fawzy said. "There are some Muslims who think he did it and others who don't. The thing is, we don't have any real proof either way. I think a lot of people feel this way."

With two lavish campuses in suburban Virginia, dozens of highly qualified teachers and accreditation from two respected organizations, the Islamic Saudi Academy stands out among Muslim schools in the Washington area.

The academy educates the children of Arabic-speaking diplomats along with other children of differing heritages -- about 1,300 students altogether. But the financial support from the Saudi government brings with it a curriculum that reflects the particularly rigid strain of Islam practiced there, Muslim educators say.

"One of the things the community has been concerned about for years is the Saudi influence and Saudi money," said Amir Hussain, a California professor who has researched Muslim communities in North America. "You have people who come in and say, 'Hey, I'll build you a school.' Then people begin to realize, if that school gets built with Saudi money, do we want that kind of curriculum?' "

The Islamic Saudi Academy does not require that U.S. history or government be taught, offering Arabic social studies as an alternative. Officials there said that only Saudis who intend to return home do not take U.S. history, though a handful of U.S.-born students who plan to stay in this country said they opted against it, too.

School officials would not allow reporters to attend classes. But a number of students described the classroom instruction and provided copies of textbooks.

Ali Al-Ahmed, whose Virginia-based Saudi Institute promotes religious tolerance in Saudi Arabia, has reviewed numerous textbooks used at the academy and said many passages promote hatred of non-Muslims and Shiite Muslims.

The 11th-grade textbook, for example, says one sign of the Day of Judgment will be that Muslims will fight and kill Jews, who will hide behind trees that say: "Oh Muslim, Oh servant of God, here is a Jew hiding behind me. Come here and kill him."

Several students of different ages, all of whom asked not to be identified, said that in Islamic studies, they are taught that it is better to shun and even to dislike Christians, Jews and Shiite Muslims.

Some teachers "focus more on hatred," said one teenager, who recited by memory the signs of the coming of the Day of Judgment. "They teach students that whatever is kuffar [non-Muslim], it is okay for you" to hurt or steal from that person.

Other teachers present more tolerant views, students said. Usama Amer, a veteran math teacher, is popular not only for his math skills but also for regularly allowing students free debate about topics within Islam.

"We do not teach hatred," Amer said.

.....

Cruelty

05-30-2002, 06:08 AM

First of all I will ask you your point in posting that article. All religious-based schools have some bias and the fact that their teachers are poorly paid, unqualified, and likely recent immigrants doesn't help matters. Despite the lack of qualified teachers it sounds like, at least from that parts we saw, who knows what you edited, the school teaches tolerance rather than hatred and that their textbooks are very minutely skewed against Jews. That's it for your post eyes.

Now, Newsguy; The Balfour Declaration and UN Resolution 181 are inherantly racist documents (A pro-Israel document by the supposed Arab-run UN, funny that). This Muslims minority you speak of would be a majority were all the refugees who fled Palestine when it's government was taken over by Zionist Jews allowed to return.

Yes they live in freedom all right, the freedom to live in your home during a curfew like a prisoner, fearing violence from the IDF should you venture outside at curfew hours (these curfews only apply to Muslims, of course), the freedom to have your home bulldozed so Jewish homes can be constructed, barred from purchasing a home in a Jewish settlement on the land that used to be yours, the freedom to be shot and killed by the IDF should you decide to peacefully asemble (a basic right in most democracies, Israel's special facsist tainted Democracy seems to view this as an excuse to kill children), and when the IDF shoots at you will you not throw rocks back?

I'll address other comments when I have more time.

NewsGuy

05-30-2002, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by Cruelty
Yes they live in freedom all right, the freedom to live in your home during a curfew like a prisoner, fearing violence from the IDF should you venture outside at curfew hours ...

I think you are confusing Israeli Arabs who do, in fact, live in complete freedom, and villages inside the Palestinian-controlled territories which house missile factories and suicide-bomber training camps.

ibrodsky

05-30-2002, 07:16 AM

Originally posted by Isolationator
2: ...Also, the Jewish faith does not teach that Martydom is a way to Heaven, if it did I have no doubt in my mind that there actually would have been some suicide bombing on behalf of the Jews.

Surely you know that it is not a sound argument to say, in effect, that Jews would act immorally if only they believed something which they don't believe.

The guilt still resides 100% with those who hold and act on such beliefs.

4:I should remind you and all who claim historical ties to Palestine mean that the Jewish state is justified there that maintaining a minority ethnic presence does not in any way guarantee a right to establish in that area. Were this the case, then the International community should have awarded control of American to the Indians long ago.

You are (again) evading the issue. Do Arabs, who constitute a minority in Israel, have the right to establish a different state in place of Israel?

What gives Arabs the right to establish a state that never before existed on the WB and in Gaza? What gives them the right to demand Israel return to its '67 "borders" when no one in the Arab world ever recognized those borders -- and repeatedly violated them?

5:As you quoted the PLO charter armed struggle IS the only visible way to liberate Palestine from the Israelis. Going to the UN has not worked for the Palestinians, nor has repeated pleas with numerous world powers, the only thing the Palestine gets is half hearted "support" if it can be called that, while Israel gets a thriving economic tie with America for their 2nd rate missiles which America does not even need.

How can you "liberate" territory that was lost by others by their own folly? The two parties that lost the territory in question have both made peace with Israel and have renounced all claims on this land, which was previously theirs and never (prior to its loss) claimed by anyone else.

6:For anyone with doubts, Zionism is ACTUALLY racist and facist, it calls for the establishment of a Jewish state in israel no matter the cost to the current residents. If this isn't facist then nothing is.

What, you get to make up a new definition of the word "fascism" just to hurl it back at Israel?

The word "fascism" means a dictatorial form of gov't in which all aspects of life are regimented. It is often built around nation or race, but regimentation and lack of democratic rights are the defining characteristics. Iran and Saudi Arabia come to mind... certainly not Israel.

7:I wonder, if Israel is actually a democracy, as you claim, then why would they bar Arabs from entering the country? What is wrong with an Arab majority, in a purely governmental sense?? Is the purpose of a government naught but to serve its people? If the people of Israel were mostly Arab, wouldn't the democracy strive to serve this majority the best it could? The answer to this quandry is that Israel is actually a facist state based on a class system which puts all Arabs on the bottom of the ladder.

In fact, about 20% of Israel is Arab. Note that the Israeli gov't does not demand that all Arabs leave Israel as part of a peace deal -- as their counterparts on the PA side demand Jews leave the disputed territories. So who is racist?

There are Arab members of Israel's parliament. How many Jews are part of the PA gov't?

Palestinians are racists for demanding a Jew-free Palestine, and fascists for rejecting rule of law, gunning down suspected collaborators in the street, and holding Kangaroo court trials in Ramallah just to get Arafat released from confinement. Plus, they host essays by David Duke, Holocaust denial claims, and other neo-Nazi material on their Web sites -- and then call Jews "Zionazis"!

8:you claim that there is no genocidal threat to Arabs, I would argue two points on this. One, there is also NO such threat to Jews anymore, I have heard of no cases of jews being wholesale exterminated in contemporary times. Two, there IS such a threat to Palestinians, it comes directly from Israel!!

You think you can just make assertions with no evidence. Arab terrorists are trying their best to blow up every Jew... the fact they are not succeeding to kill more is not because they aren't trying. I'm sure the Passover massacre terrorist would have liked to have killed 2,000, he just didn't have the wherewithal.

Show us some evidence that Israel is purposely trying to exterminate Palestinians or retract your false accusation.

9: you wonder why Palestinians are not struggling for liberation from Jordan, and I have no doubts in my mind why you wonder. It is because you refuse time and time again to look at the facts. Israel, not Jordan is the country the the Palestinians fleed/ were forced from. Palestine, NOT Jordan is their home country. It is Israel they covet because that is the thing that was taken away from them. Therefore, it is NOT the only possible answer that Israel is ruled by Jews. The situation would be the same if Israel were instead a Confucianist state.

Palestine was established as a Roman colony long before the Arabs came from Arabia. Arabs began settling in "Palestine" in big numbers only after Zionists came to the area.

11:Occupation is NOT NOT NOT a myth!!!!!!!!! It is a fact which is actually occurring all over Arab controlled Palestine AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Whoever calls occupation a myth is in the same category as all the morons who call the Holocaust a myth.

Again, you think that you simply have to assert something for it to be true. What facts or logic have you offered?

The Arabs did not recognize Israel's '67 border as anything more than a cease-fire line which they repeatedly violated. Territory seized from an invader is not "occupied" in any legal sense. It is only "occupied" in the sense that Israel has, by its own choice, always taken the position that it is willing to relinquish most of the captured territory as part of a genuine peace deal.

12:Your sensationalist claims that Israel is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak of the Militant Islamic Evil Superpower is totally unfounded. In no way has any militant Islamic organization made advances on world domination, nor have they expressed any desire for any place other than Israel. Your comparison of Hitler to the Islamic world is equally unfounded and totally wrong anyways. Whereas Hitler signed numerous "Land for Peace" agreements (which he subsequently broke to get more land) the Islamic world has made no such treaties. In fact, they have been totally steadfast in their sole desire: to liberate Palestine from the Israelis.

Yeah, right. Al Qaeda has never said that it will reduce the U.S. to rubble. Iran has never called the U.S. the "great Satan." Islam does not contain the prophecy that eventually the entire world will be Islamic....

eyes-opened

05-30-2002, 07:59 AM

"Cruelty" asks why I posted the Washington Post article. Since the answer is obvious - i.e., I did it in order to show that established Muslim institutions feature the preaching of anti-Semitism of the most extremely violent variety - the question can have only one purpose: to trivialize the contents of the Post article and to fault me for stirring up trouble over such petty stuff.

His or her (or their) idea, my friends, is that by attacking racism we are encouraging discord. The way the argument is supposed to proceed is this: the Islamists and their supporters depict calling the murder of "Nazi Jews" - and actually murdering Jews! - as justified and reasonable and the Jews call for tolerance on *all* sides. But the fact is, racism has never been defeated ever at any time in the history of this world unless it was first exposed. That I learned in the Civil Rights movement many years ago. Being moderate in exposure of anti-Semitism is like being moderate about killing a chicken.

Cruelty says: "All religious-based schools have some bias and the fact that their teachers are poorly paid, unqualified, and likely recent immigrants doesn't help matters."

Two points about this.

First, a feature of the current campaign against the Jews is that the most shocking enormities are justified by attempting to create sympathy for the perpetrators.

The ideal way to do this is to couple the appeal for sympathy for the perpetrator of the abuse with an attack on some supposed abuse by Israel. By doing that, one casts the criminal (e.g., someone who preaches murder of Jews or someone who murders them during a jihad bombing) as a victim acting only out of understandable desperation and revenge.

Obviously this cannot be done with teachers in US religious private schools who are teaching extermination of Jews. That is, Cruelty cannot make us weep because these poor teachers in a school in Virginia iare subjected to curfews (oh my!!). So Cruelty settles for second best: he or she argues that what the Post reports is only happening because a) these schools are impoverished (including the one financed from Saudi Arabia?!) and b) the teachers are hard luck cases. As if being poorly paid or lacking teaching credentials ever forced anyone to teach that Jews (or anyone else!) should be killed or caused schools to keep on their staffs the fascist thugs who teach such things.

Second, note that Cruelty does not say -"This is monstrous, but...", but rather, tells us that these teachers/schools are hard luck cases and "all religious schools *have some bias.*" This is revealing. Do you see? Calling for the killing of "the Jew behind the tree" has become an example of "some bias.* Because the reporter was only told about *some* teachers who preach the murder of Jews, therefore this is a minor blemish, and Cruelty concludes that "the school teaches tolerance rather than hatred and ... their textbooks are very minutely skewed against Jews. " Ahh, so we are to be "minutely skewed" again, eh?

My mother taught first grade (English) at the Ramaz school in NY for a dozen years. A Jewish parochial school. She was a practicing leftist atheist, but they wanted her because she was a superb teacher. She loathed racism. She used to regale us with wonderful stories about that school including every feature, good and bad. She never reported that anyone said anything racist about any group. She would have quit in protest in two seconds flat if that had happened and the administration had not acted.

Note another technique. Cruelty says, regarding my posting of the Washington Post article, "at least from that parts we saw, who knows what you edited." Well, Cruelty, put your money where your mouth is. Go to the Washington Post website, find the article and show how I have in any way edited the part of the text that I posted. I did what I said: cut a part of the middle of the article and a chunk from the end to meet the length-limitation on this forum. The part I posted is plenty long and entirely self-contained.

Why does Cruelty, whoever he or she is, post on this list? Because in any political debate, the tendency is for people to split the difference between the extreme positions. Therefore, the Islamist fascists and their supporters (including shamefully some Jews) have taken the struggle "to the Jews" so to speak - to force one "extreme" - that is, those who would logically be expected to defend Israel most strongly - into the mental *habit* of compromising the truth before they speak or write because they have come to feel that it is normal for people to think of slaughtering all Jews as just a case of expressing "some bias," i.e., this is normal for people critical of Israel and therefore we'll turn people off if we "go too far" in exposing anti-Semitism.

Well, let me say, there's a lot of wrong ideas about Israel out there, but that doesn't mean that normal people view calling for killing all the Jews as a case of "some bias." If we show people that our enemies are making arguments like Cruelty is making, they will see that we are dealing here with fascists.

Cruelty is expressing views perfectly consistent with those of Al Husseini, the former Mufti of jerusalem, the high-level Nazi who is the George Washington of Palestine, the man who organized two Waffen SS divisions in Bosnia, responsible for killing tens of thousands of Jews, Serbs and "Gypsies," and another in Kosovo (the notorious Skederberg division) and who had a Nazi radio show during WWII which broadcast out of Berlin in which he called on Arabs to kill all the Jews. He was a wanted war criminal, jailed in France after WWII, somehow released so he could return to the Middle East. Wanted for war crimes by Yugoslavia, he was protected by the Arab states. Arafat fought under him in '48. Arafat Al-Husseni, I should say. Arafat is related to this Mufti on his mother's side.

Jared Israel

elke

05-30-2002, 08:11 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Isolationator
1: Never did I say I was "receptive to Jews" (I take this to mean that you thought I said I was open minded towards the Israeli argument, however I am [B]not ) I have reviewed the history many times, and although most of your description was in some way correct, it was largely inconsequential.

Nice of you to admit that you are not open-minded towards the Israeli argument. Why would "mostly correct" description be "inconsequential"? I thought that we were supposed to base our opinions on facts. I don't understand...

2: Your description of the usage of suicide bombing was also incorrect. While it is a proven fact that suicide bombers are indoctrinated, not all who are indoctrinated become suicide bombers. This is a critical distinction that you fail utterly to make. Also, you described the differences between the resistance to the Holocaust by the Jews and Palestinian resistance to the Israelis. To this I say: the two situations are completely different. Also, the Jewish faith does not teach that Martydom is a way to Heaven, if it did I have no doubt in my mind that there actually would have been some suicide bombing on behalf of the Jews.

So, what is your explanation of why some indoctrinated individuals do commit suicide, and others don't? What is the difference between them?

Regarding "martyrdom": according to numerous Islamic scholars, willful suicide is not martyrdom. But even if we presume that Islam provides for such operations during Jihad, does that make it right?

3:Yes, the Holocaust DID cause great pressure for a Jewish homeland, but it is not impressive that the US or UK didn't just open their borders, seeing as how it would have been unpractical in a political sense to accept them. If they did that, every war stricken person would be clamoring for a new home in these countries. You also accuse the world of turning their backs on the Jews during WW2, and I have a reason for this. It ism very simple, they did not want to incur Hitler's wrath. Surely you must understand that any nation harboring Jews would have been targeted for invasion, only because of the Jewish presence there. No nation wanted to be targeted like this, so they refused the Jews asylum.

It may be simple, these may be valid arguments regarding why Europe did what it did, but I don't understand what point you are trying to make. So, what were the Jews supposed to do? Lie down and die, to make it easy for Europe? What kind of solution is that? You are sitting here, decrying the fate of the Palestinians - and it is a sad thing to see, no doubt, - but in the same breath you are saying...what is it you are saying here?

4:I should remind you and all who claim historical ties to Palestine mean that the Jewish state is justified there that maintaining a minority ethnic presence does not in any way guarantee a right to establish in that area. Were this the case, then the International community should have awarded control of American to the Indians long ago.

I don't know why the Indians are not trying to set up their own state, but to the best of my knowledge, they aren't. What was done to the Indians was horrendous, no question about it; but they don't agitate for their own state, as far as I know. If they were to do so, most likely some compromise would be reached.

5:As you quoted the PLO charter armed struggle IS the only visible way to liberate Palestine from the Israelis. Going to the UN has not worked for the Palestinians, nor has repeated pleas with numerous world powers, the only thing the Palestine gets is half hearted "support" if it can be called that, while Israel gets a thriving economic tie with America for their 2nd rate missiles which America does not even need.

Which part of "Palestine" are you talking about? The "pre-'67" or "post"? As far as the "pre-'67", - rest assured, NOTHING will work to "liberate" it. As far as the "Post-'67" - murders won't work; and they haven't tried anything else as yet, so how do we know what will work?

6:For anyone with doubts, Zionism is ACTUALLY racist and facist, it calls for the establishment of a Jewish state in israel no matter the cost to the current residents. If this isn't facist then nothing is.

How is establishment of a Jewish state racist and fascist? Define the terms.

7:I wonder, if Israel is actually a democracy, as you claim, then why would they bar Arabs from entering the country? What is wrong with an Arab majority, in a purely governmental sense?? Is the purpose of a government naught but to serve its people? If the people of Israel were mostly Arab, wouldn't the democracy strive to serve this majority the best it could? The answer to this quandry is that Israel is actually a facist state based on a class system which puts all Arabs on the bottom of the ladder.

Well...multi-party system, with equal rights of all citizens...I don't know what else you can call it...

8:you claim that there is no genocidal threat to Arabs, I would argue two points on this. One, there is also NO such threat to Jews anymore, I have heard of no cases of jews being wholesale exterminated in contemporary times. Two, there IS such a threat to Palestinians, it comes directly from Israel!!

I don't know what you are talking about on this one...

9: you wonder why Palestinians are not struggling for liberation from Jordan, and I have no doubts in my mind why you wonder. It is because you refuse time and time again to look at the facts. Israel, not Jordan is the country the the Palestinians fleed/ were forced from. Palestine, NOT Jordan is their home country. It is Israel they covet because that is the thing that was taken away from them. Therefore, it is NOT the only possible answer that Israel is ruled by Jews. The situation would be the same if Israel were instead a Confucianist state.

It's more likely that they know that if they tried the same thing in Jordan, they would have not 1200, but 12,000 casualties. In fact, they did try in the '70s - and it WAS the result, along with expulsion.

10: Children are never sent to die, it is always men, and always men of adult age (as the "adult age" is qualified by their culture.)
They are also not "sent" to die, they willingly and happily choose to do so. There is no one forcing this role on suicide bombers. Plenty of Palestinians are NOT suicide bombers.

Define "men". I have a 13-year-old. I intend to send him to college one day. As of now, I have moral trepidations on leaving my 9-year-old with him, alone, for a few hours. The suicide bombers have been as young as 12! I don't care what their "culture" says about that, but they are not "men", they are children. Because no 12- or 16-year-old is fully capable of predicting consequences of their actions, no matter their culture.

11:Occupation is NOT NOT NOT a myth!!!!!!!!! It is a fact which is actually occurring all over Arab controlled Palestine AT THIS VERY MOMENT. Whoever calls occupation a myth is in the same category as all the morons who call the Holocaust a myth.

Screaming won't convince anyone. "Arab-controlled Palestine"? Define...

12:Your sensationalist claims that Israel is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak of the Militant Islamic Evil Superpower is totally unfounded. In no way has any militant Islamic organization made advances on world domination, nor have they expressed any desire for any place other than Israel. Your comparison of Hitler to the Islamic world is equally unfounded and totally wrong anyways. Whereas Hitler signed numerous "Land for Peace" agreements (which he subsequently broke to get more land) the Islamic world has made no such treaties. In fact, they have been totally steadfast in their sole desire: to liberate Palestine from the Israelis.

The difference between the Islamic world and Hitler is that Hitler had world-class scientists with gutter morals on his payroll. There is an Islamic movement to conquer the world, I have seen their websites (I will look for them, if you are interested). I don't know if they have general support in the Muslim world, but they do exist. The more important argument, however, is that if the West gives in to terror, it's like giving in to blackmail: if they feel they want something, they can just kill some people.

Mediocrates

05-30-2002, 08:15 AM

Every enlightened permissive society has a duty to allow dissent. Every dissenter is free to understand and/or ignore the consequences of that dissent.

Isolationator

05-30-2002, 08:27 PM

BATMAN's recent post only proves to me that he is not a strong debater, he can only rely on baseless accusations of brainwashing care of PLO (which isn't even that extreme as far as the militant Arab organizations go, if you did accuse me of such brainwashing, at least say I was brainwashed by Hizbollah or Hamas, the PLO is all flowers and rainbows in comparison to those two) I don't care what BATMAN thinks of the Islamic world, it isn't right to make such blanket statements as he does in his recent posts

"I see no racism whatsoever, only a wise man's alert to the evil being used for years (terror against US embassy etc) and continually perpetrated (9/11) by Arab-Muslims terrorists deriving support of the Arab-Militant Muslim supporting Arab League of Nations"

In addition to this racist (this comment is actually only questionable, BATMAN may have just worded it poorly, or I may just be too touchy) mumbo-jumbo that BATMAN spews, he has made numerous and repeated comments about me and Brainwashing, particularly when I make statements regarding his posts, he seems to need to attack me in the only way he sees possible: by dismissing my opinions (Which I personally have been trying to deliver in as intelligent and professional way as possible) as the products of brainwashing. I cannot stand this sort of personal attack, and I demand that this sort of "flaming" be stopped on this forum, so we can get back to the intelligent political discussion that drew me to this forum in the first place.
:mad:
(P.S. Thank you Newsguy for doing the exact thing I asked for, you have certainly gained my respect for your moderating) :D

Isolationator

05-30-2002, 08:44 PM

I almost missed this one, I just have to rebuke BATMAN's attack on me. When I denied being "receptive to Jews" (your words originally, NOT mine) I was taking your question of me to mean if I was receptive to the Israeli point of view, because if you were wondering if I am a Jew-hater, I AM NOT. It would not matter to me one iota if the state of Israel were not a jewish state, but some other religion, I would still denounce it because of its actions, NOT the religion practiced by the majority of its people. I DO NOT HATE JEWISH PEOPLE. I respect them just as much as I respect all religions and peoples. Let me reiterate, I AM NOT A RACIST. Even Iborsky, who is one of the most intelligent Israeli supporters in this forum, specifically apologized to me for calling me racist, why can't you just trust his educated judgement and lay off of the Qualitative statements and focus on political debate?

P.S. as you put it: "I am very interested in having a more productive discussion " so if this is indeed the case, LAY OFF OF THE PERSONAL CRACKS. If this thread is going to turn into a flame war, I assure you BATMAN that my arsenal of flames is grander than a forest fire in a volcano, and far more scathing. I don't think you want me to bring the hurt on. LAY OFF.

Cruelty

05-30-2002, 09:48 PM

you said: "PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY BUTCHERY OF ANYONE WHO SPEAKS AGAINST THEM?" I will tell you this once again, far more often are critics of Israel's supposed "democratic" government butchered, usually by M-16's firing rubber bullets that strangely have a very high shot-to-kill ratio, despite their less-than-lethal classification. This is why thousands of Palestinians are dead over the last few years from protesting against israel's fascist government.

Mediocrates said: "Every enlightened permissive society has a duty to allow dissent. Every dissenter is free to understand and/or ignore the consequences of that dissent." By definition a free and permissive society would not set as the consequences for such dissent death by M-16 slaughter of crowds of protestors. Israel is not a free society for Arabs.

Eight, Elke; about the Native Americans they did quite a bit of agitating for their own state (look up the American Indian Movement) but they were oppressed and crushed by corrupt US policy as the Palestinians are being by Israel, America's ally.

Ninth, and finally, Newsguy; I am using examples from West Bank areas that are under the oppressive rule of Israel and occupied by Israeli soldiers. These foot soldiers of fascism committ the acts which I have detailed. The Arabs in Israel proper, while not facing necessarily the same depredations their brothers in Israeli occupied territories face, have other problems to deal with. Such as; being stopped and hassled at checkpoints MERELY because they are Arab, for upwards of three hours, being routinely barred from entering areas they need to enter to get to their places of employment, in addition they enjoy no privacy as IDF surveilance equipment watches their every move. They live in Orwell's nightmare and you call them free? Their relatives tell lies about them to the IDF to gain favor with their new masters and not appear suspicious themselves (remind anyone of the House Un-American Activities Committee?). No, I'm not saying all the second party confessions are false merely that some of them are. If that wasn't enough, they hold such a minority, because Israel does not allow the immigration of Muslims to their nation, that their votes are meaningless compared to the overwhelming majority of Jews who moved to Israel, having had no previous claim to the land, with Israel's blessing. The influx of Jews did two things for Israel, completly annihilated any voting power the Muslims had (a former majority) and gave them a convenient excuse to build Jewish settlements on land that wasn't theirs.

That is all for now.

elke

05-31-2002, 05:09 AM

By definition a free and permissive society would not set as the consequences for such dissent death by M-16 slaughter of crowds of protestors. Israel is not a free society for Arabs.

M-16s on demonstrations? Source?

Eight, Elke; about the Native Americans they did quite a bit of agitating for their own state (look up the American Indian Movement) but they were oppressed and crushed by corrupt US policy as the Palestinians are being by Israel, America's ally.

Source? When, where, how?

Ninth, and finally, Newsguy; I am using examples from West Bank areas that are under the oppressive rule of Israel and occupied by Israeli soldiers. These foot soldiers of fascism committ the acts which I have detailed. The Arabs in Israel proper, while not facing necessarily the same depredations their brothers in Israeli occupied territories face, have other problems to deal with. Such as; being stopped and hassled at checkpoints MERELY because they are Arab, for upwards of three hours, being routinely barred from entering areas they need to enter to get to their places of employment, in addition they enjoy no privacy as IDF surveilance equipment watches their every move.

Israeli Arabs? Source?

Their relatives tell lies about them to the IDF to gain favor with their new masters and not appear suspicious themselves (remind anyone of the House Un-American Activities Committee?). No, I'm not saying all the second party confessions are false merely that some of them are.

Like when? Examples?

The influx of Jews did two things for Israel, completly annihilated any voting power the Muslims had (a former majority) and gave them a convenient excuse to build Jewish settlements on land that wasn't theirs .

What voting power? Which Arab states had any voting at all?

Cruelty, you are very eloquent. However, the "hyperbole" you use incessantly only works when preaching to the "converted". You would do better with facts, supported by sources, which can be cross-checked.

Cruelty

05-31-2002, 02:39 PM

The M-16's is an assumption that I made because I know IDF troops use American assault rifles, I would imagine they are M-16's, but they could be Ar-33's or any other brand of American assault rifle. As for the IDF shooting intifadah protestors, look to CNN for your source there. Yes even staunch Israel supporter CNN admits the Israelis regularly shoot protestors. Two years ago or so when people in America cared about the Israel/Palestine peace problems (before other more local news stories stole their attention) CNN would show every day the rising death toll of Palestinian children killed by Israeli soldiers as they protested. This was shortly after Ariel Sharone made inflamatory comments at a Mosque, inspiring an intifadah upsurge.

Look up the controversy around Leonard Peltier (while he individually may be guilty the dismantling of AIM was unjustified), or just type American Indian Movement into a search engine and you'll pull up fistfulls of information on it. I'm sorry I don't have a direct source to link you to.

Everyone knows that there are some Arabs living inside Israel, look up an Israeli census or some such. Even your friends Newsguy and BATMAN agree with this. The amount of Arabs in Israel is very small however as their immigration is not allowed and most left when the Zionist facists (ah reundency)took over the government of Palestine.

The IDF routinely uses information from Muslims who sympathize with the Israeli government, usually because they fear being shot or tortured should they refuse to provide information. These informants spy on their friends and family and if they find nothing wrong, invent suspicious activities for the IDF to monitor. This usually leads to people getting killed by IDF sniper bullets and this is why Hizbollah kills informants and calls them traitors, most of their accusations are lies and result in their relatives being killed.

Palestine was a British colony before being ceded to the Zionists. The Palestinians fought in WW1 and WW2 for the allies with the hopes that, like India and Pakistan, they would be given their freedom from Britain. They were not, had they been granted independence Britain would have set up a democracy and backed that government as they had done with the colonies in Africa and in India. Formerly, Muslims enjoyed an 85% majority in Palestine. After the Zionists took control the immigration of Jews over any other type of people was encouraged, afterall, you can't have a faux-democracy when ALL your people would see the government toppled. So they tried to build a Jewish majority and eventually suceeded, now they were safe to allow people to vote, knowing that all of the voters (most anyhow) were people they had brought to the country for the specific purpose of nullifying the votes of the Arabs. They could then be called a democracy and receive aid from America to suppress and oppress the surrounding territories and their peoples.

elke

05-31-2002, 03:45 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cruelty
As for the IDF shooting intifadah protestors, look to CNN for your source there. Yes even staunch Israel supporter CNN admits the Israelis regularly shoot protestors.

The "protestors" shot at had their own M-16's, or whatever rifles the Hamas, Tanzim, etc. have. Tanzim, in fact, have much the same rifles as IDF - and provided by the IDF. The responsibility for any children that were caught in the cross-fire can be squarely laid at the Hamas, Tanzim, Force 17, etc. doors.
This is also well-documented, not only by CNN but by other news media as well.

Look up the controversy around Leonard Peltier (while he individually may be guilty the dismantling of AIM was unjustified), or just type American Indian Movement into a search engine and you'll pull up fistfulls of information on it. I'm sorry I don't have a direct source to link you to.

It does not look to me like AIM is dismantled... On cursory review, AIM also seems to be successful in its goals, without murdering anyone intentionally.

Everyone knows that there are some Arabs living inside Israel, look up an Israeli census or some such. Even your friends Newsguy and BATMAN agree with this. The amount of Arabs in Israel is very small however as their immigration is not allowed and most left when the Zionist facists (ah reundency)took over the government of Palestine.

The number of Arabs in Israel is 20% - about 1M. I know that. My point was that Israeli Arabs don't go through checkpoints any more than Israeli Jews do.

The IDF routinely uses information from Muslims who sympathize with the Israeli government, usually because they fear being shot or tortured should they refuse to provide information. These informants spy on their friends and family and if they find nothing wrong, invent suspicious activities for the IDF to monitor. This usually leads to people getting killed by IDF sniper bullets and this is why Hizbollah kills informants and calls them traitors, most of their accusations are lies and result in their relatives being killed.

I know that IDF uses Palestinian informants. My question was what makes you think that they lie. I asked for examples, not for explanation.

Palestine was a British colony before being ceded to the Zionists. The Palestinians fought in WW1 and WW2 for the allies with the hopes that, like India and Pakistan, they would be given their freedom from Britain. They were not, had they been granted independence Britain would have set up a democracy and backed that government as they had done with the colonies in Africa and in India. Formerly, Muslims enjoyed an 85% majority in Palestine. After the Zionists took control the immigration of Jews over any other type of people was encouraged, afterall, you can't have a faux-democracy when ALL your people would see the government toppled. So they tried to build a Jewish majority and eventually suceeded, now they were safe to allow people to vote, knowing that all of the voters (most anyhow) were people they had brought to the country for the specific purpose of nullifying the votes of the Arabs. They could then be called a democracy and receive aid from America to suppress and oppress the surrounding territories and their peoples.

I know that Palestine was a British colony between 1918 and 1948. But during WWI it was an Ottoman colony. Neither the Israeli Jews nor the Arabs fought in any sort of numbers on Allied side in WWI. In WWII there was a "Palestinian Unit" in the British Army, but it was comprised of the Israeli Jews. Haj Husseini, on the other hand, was plumb in the Nazi camp.

Most of those people that immigrated after the war were survivors of the Holocaust; and the British Mandate did not end until May 14, 1948 - when Israel proclaimed itself a State. The first elections were held on January 25, 1949.

Aid from America did not come in until mid-'50s, almost 10 years after the establishment of Israel.

Again, most of what you say is "eloquence", opinion, and congecture, no facts.

NewsGuy

06-01-2002, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by Cruelty
...The Arabs in Israel proper, while not facing necessarily the same depredations their brothers in Israeli occupied territories face, have other problems to deal with. Such as; being stopped and hassled at checkpoints MERELY because they are Arab, for upwards of three hours, being routinely barred from entering areas they need to enter to get to their places of employment, in addition they enjoy no privacy as IDF surveilance equipment watches their every move. They live in Orwell's nightmare and you call them free?

No, this is a good example of Arab propaganda, but it is of course not true in the slightest bit.

Arabs who are citizens of Israel face no checkpoints in Israel's major metropolitan cities. In places like Haifa, Jerusalem, Beer Sheva and Yaffo (suburb of Tel Aviv), Arabs come and go as they please.

In between major cities, there are checkpoints which were created because of the need to stop Arab terrorists from massacring Israeli citizens. ALL Israelis are stopped at these checkpoins and inconvenienced greatly. In fact, these checkpoints have been a huge expense and inconvenience to Israel, and Israel should be compensated for this by the Palestinians in the event of a permanent settlement.

As for being watched, again this is a nuisance and a financial drain on Israel, necessitated by Arab terrorism which is often supported by Arab citizens of Israel. These Arabs, while enjoying Israel's democracy and a higher standard of living than they would in any Arab country -- courtesy of the Israeli taxpayer -- are basically often enemies of Israel.

These Arabs transport terrorists into Israel by virtue of the freedom that Israeli Arabs enjoy, and then give shelter and house the suicide bombers. So, of course, Israel should maintain a close watch on its Arab citizens, many of whom are enemies directly engaged in the massacres of Israeli citizens.

But, if you noticed, here in the U.S., too, the FBI has now been given powers to proactively prevent terrorism, which will amount to the FBI adpoting the same intelligence-gathering activities that Israel has been carrying out.

In Israel and in the U.S., Arab terrorists have taken advantage of these countries' open democratic societies, to mass murder innocent people. So, it is no wonder now that the U.S. and Israel need to expend resources in keeping an eye in their Arab enemies who are living in their midst as protected citizens.

L@mplighterM

06-01-2002, 08:35 PM

I was out for a nice long evening walk with my son and we noticed Muslims walking wearing something that looks like nightgowns (I?m not making fun of their non western attire).

At some point we realized that they were converging to a hall. There was an open window and from it came a fiery foreign speech reminiscent of an Adolph Hitler reincarnate. The orator was screaming but I recognized two words that were repeated several times Allah and Jihad. I thought I heard Yahoud but I?m not certain (almost certain). Wished that Arabic was one of the languages that I mastered.

After having fumbled for my lighter for several minutes I decided to move on.

With people like that around I now know why there was so much police presence at the last pro Israel demonstration that I attended.

elke

06-02-2002, 07:35 AM

The "Garment District" Synagogue in New York City has a policeman at its door continuously (or at least at 8:45AM and at 5-6PM - it's on my way from the bus to my job). I have seen 3 Palestinian demonstrations on this route, which actually stood out above the din of the rush hour. These people are loud!

L@mplighterM

06-02-2002, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by elke
These people are loud!

You said it!

Iori Yagami

06-03-2002, 12:28 AM

AmericaNumber1

06-06-2002, 12:54 PM

Why do Jews equate a whole country to themselves? Isn't that antidemocratic and blatantly racist?

Anyway, no, I don't believe that criticisim of Israel is a blow to Jews, or Arabs for that matter! Frankly, Israel claims to be a democratic society so isn't a fallacy to say Israel = Jews????

More so, Israel is not owned by a single ethnicity. It's a religious place not specific to any of the monotheistic religions. Jews believe, wrongly, it is theirs and only theirs. In fact, the REAL natives of Israel were Pagans brutally massacred by the Jews many years ago. But, the point is Christians, Muslims AND Jews hold a place in Israel.

If you criticise USA, do you Criticise Christians? You know the answer to that one.

elke

06-06-2002, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1
Why do Jews equate a whole country to themselves? Isn't that antidemocratic and blatantly racist?

Anyway, no, I don't believe that criticisim of Israel is a blow to Jews, or Arabs for that matter! Frankly, Israel claims to be a democratic society so isn't a fallacy to say Israel = Jews????

More so, Israel is not owned by a single ethnicity. It's a religious place not specific to any of the monotheistic religions. Jews believe, wrongly, it is theirs and only theirs. In fact, the REAL natives of Israel were Pagans brutally massacred by the Jews many years ago. But, the point is Christians, Muslims AND Jews hold a place in Israel.

If you criticise USA, do you Criticise Christians? You know the answer to that one.

Well, I don't know. Are French "undemocratic and blatantly racist" by insisting that they are French? What about Germans? What about Mexicans, or Brits, or any number of separate nations who equate a "whole country to themselves"?

AmericaNumber1

06-06-2002, 01:23 PM

Well, I don't know. Are French "undemocratic and blatantly racist" by insisting that they are French? What about Germans? What about Mexicans, or Brits, or any number of separate nations who equate a "whole country to themselves"?

Being French means you live in France. Being Jewish doesn't mean you live in Israel....think about it, genius. :eek:

Mediocrates

06-06-2002, 01:31 PM

Israel is the Jewish state. If you can't wrap your mind around that then tough darts to you.

I live in the American Bible Belt and there are all sorts of things I can't do like drink and gamble and buy a car on Sunday because it's a CHRISTIAN country. In Israel its the same thing. It is a nation run according to some principals we call Jewish or Judaism. And that is far broader than being Haredi (ultra Orthodox) in fact only about 25-30% of Israelis are seriously religious Jews. It is for most purposes a secular state. A Jewish secular state.

I am free to live in the Bible Belt as long as it doesn't drive me crazy to live by their rules. Anybody can live in Israel as long as following those rules don't drive them crazy and they accept the inevitability of it such as no mass transit on Shabbat, difficulty in finding non Kosher food and so on.

elke

06-06-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1

Being French means you live in France. Being Jewish doesn't mean you live in Israel....think about it, genius. :eek:

A Frenchman who lives in Germany is still French, a German who lives in Poland is still German, an American who lives in Finland is still an American. Think about it, Einstein. It's not where you live necessarily, it's your culture that determines who you are.

L@mplighterM

06-06-2002, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1
Why do Jews equate a whole country to themselves? Isn't that antidemocratic and blatantly racist?

Why does Saudi Arabia have a whole country themselves?

Actually there’s Arabs living, voting and holding a position in government in Israel.

Just consider the WB and GS as large penal colonies for Arabs. Jordan doesn’t want the Palestinians. Egypt doesn’t want the Palestinians. Lebanon doesn’t want the Palestinians. No one wants extremists or fanatics in their back yard.

Why does Vatican City have the whole place for Catholics?

Alternately you could view the WB and GS as big cage that holds a large percentage of Palestinian animals.

Palestinian animals are the ones that support terrorism against innocent peace people that go about in their everyday life. I’ve seen figures that indicate that somewhere around 70% of Palestinians support terrorism.

You do know what they do to mad dogs in America don’t you?

AmericaNumber1

06-07-2002, 06:55 AM

The point is this: Israel wants to enjoy the label of a democracy while maintaining their monocultural dogma. You can't have both! Democracy does not work that way. In fact, if you look at Israel STATISTICALLY...20% of Israeli's are of Arab descent. In other words, Israel is NOT a wholly Jewish State nor does it BELONG to Jews. You can play the "majority rule" trumpet but when you talk about fundamentals, you have to be specific. Israel does not equal JEWS just as America does not equal Christians. Does being a Jew mean your an Israeli? To answer that begs the question: what, really, is a jew? And that becomes a matter of opinion. Because some will say, "A Jew is anyone taking part in the Jewish faith"....others will say, "No, a Jew is someone who was born to a Jewish mother." Still, others will say, "You're both right! A mother who was once a Christian, decided to become Jewish by being accepted at her local synagogue and now every child born to her becomes a Jew". Now, that's all subjective.

ibrodsky

06-07-2002, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1
The point is this: Israel wants to enjoy the label of a democracy while maintaining their monocultural dogma. You can't have both! Democracy does not work that way. In fact, if you look at Israel STATISTICALLY...20% of Israeli's are of Arab descent. In other words, Israel is NOT a wholly Jewish State nor does it BELONG to Jews. You can play the "majority rule" trumpet but when you talk about fundamentals, you have to be specific. Israel does not equal JEWS just as America does not equal Christians. Does being a Jew mean your an Israeli? To answer that begs the question: what, really, is a jew? And that becomes a matter of opinion. Because some will say, "A Jew is anyone taking part in the Jewish faith"....others will say, "No, a Jew is someone who was born to a Jewish mother." Still, others will say, "You're both right! A mother who was once a Christian, decided to become Jewish by being accepted at her local synagogue and now every child born to her becomes a Jew". Now, that's all subjective.

Israel may not be a perfect democracy, but it is a democracy. Contrary to your claim, the main pillar of democracy is majority rule -- not diversity. While hereditary privilege is antithetical to democracy, the establishment of a homeland for an ethnic group is not. It does not preclude equal rights for minorities.

Yes, Israel belongs to the Jews. And Israeli Arabs are a minority with equal rights under the law. And Arab citizens of Israel enjoy rights Arabs do not have in most Arab countries.

It seems odd to complain that Israel is not a perfect democracy at a time when the Middle East's lone democracy is under attack by adversaries that openly reject democracy as a Western, i.e., "infidel," institution.

Your comparison to the U.S. is confused. America does not "equal" Christians, but certainly they are by far the dominant group. There are other democracies, such as Japan and Sweden, that are more homogeneous societies; does that in itself make them any less democratic? I think not.

Your comments remind me of the familiar complaint that Israel couldn't possibly be a democracy because its immigration policies favor Jews. Actually, sovereign nations can establish whatever immigration policies they want. Democracy means the citizens have a voice in how their country is run. It does not mean that foreign commentators get to impose diversity on them.

Mediocrates

06-07-2002, 07:51 AM

So what's your point, AN#1

That's exactly how representative democracy works. Anyone so naive as to assume that perfect freedom doesn't imply near total anarchy hasn't been listening in class.

I'm sure there are lots of Hindus living in the US who would love to see it become a vegetarian country, or muslims who would love a halal stand on every corner. I'm sure there are lots of Mexicans in California would would be happy if Spanish were made the official language of the state. So far, a failure to do all of that hasn't prompted people to pick up guns and do it by force.

Implicit in an egalitarian society is that there is always something broken or unfair. That's what laws and civic action are for.

I have relatives in France, South Africa, Australia, Ireland, and I hear the same things all over the world. Some group is cut out of the mainstream and has to fight for their rights, be it language, employment, race, religion or something else.

Nobody says that everyone in Israel needs to be Jewish. They simply have to understand that it is a Jewish state run according to those principals just like (until recently, about 1994) Ireland was essentially a Catholic country where the Catholic church has as much power as the government. Now in that case, over time the population felt it more important to slip off the more restrictive religious laws like birth control and divorce. That's how democratic processes work.

Americans seem to have an awful hard time understanding what the cultural context of country is based on. I guess this has to do with the US being basically 84% protestant, 70% white/european ancestry. It's hard to detect a difference when all you see is yourself. For me, I live in a state that permitted Jews to vote, get elected or own real estate in 1868, a full 3 years after the 13/14/15th ammendments were ratified.

elke

06-07-2002, 08:12 AM

US is not a very good corresponding entity to Israel. A European state would be more appropriate. 15% of the French population, for example, are Muslims, apparently from North African former French colonies by and large. They are expected to speak French, have a clue regarding the French culture, even if they are free to practice Islam, eat their own Halal food, etc. etc. Immigration is limited by certain rules and laws, just as it is everywhere else, including the US.

Israel is in a similar situation. Prior to the expulsion in Roman times, most Jews lived in Israel. Some went to Rome, Spain, North Africa, Egypt, etc. etc. - but they were still Jews and were free to come back and live in Israel, since that was their home.

Jewish religion is unique in that it's also a national history and culture, all rolled into one. When a Christian reads about Jerusalem, they are not really looking at a real PLACE. They don't talk about "Next year in Jerusalem" every year, as we do after a Passover Seder, or pray in the physical direction of the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem 3 times a day, while mentioning it by name. When Christians come to Israel, that experience has to do with Jesus' home, not with their own. When Jews come to Israel, whether as tourists or making Aliyah, they are looking at the stones their ancestors trod.

For Jews, whether they are "born of a Jewish mother" or converted, the culture which has been handed down from generation to generation, becomes their own. Many times, the converted Jews know more about Judaism and Israel than those born into it (a perfect example is the Russian Jewry). Whenever someone converts to Judaism, along with the religious precepts they also adopt the culture of the Jewish people. That's how they become Jewish.

"Democracy" is a form of government, that in a nutshell, means "Majority Rule". It does not necessarily follow that there is "pluralism", which is the concept of many cultures co-existing together. Neither does it mean that there is no predominant culture. In the US, for instance, the predominant culture has historically been that of the English (as in the language and legal system for example). In Israel, the predominant culture is that of the Jews.

AmericaNumber1

06-07-2002, 08:20 AM

Israel may not be a perfect democracy, but it is a democracy. Contrary to your claim, the main pillar of democracy is majority rule -- not diversity. While hereditary privilege is antithetical to democracy, the establishment of a homeland for an ethnic group is not. It does not preclude equal rights for minorities.

However, if you view State Departments reports of Human Rights you will find Israel is a routine violator of not just Arab rights, but also Christians and any other Non-Jewish citizens rights. In addition, Israel has a record of abuses to female citizen's as well (the sex trade).

Not all Jews wish to be associated with such indecencies nor do many of them approve of the Zionist ideology. In fact, there was a media black-out when 20,000 Jews marched against Zionism in NYC last February!

elke

06-07-2002, 08:32 AM

You can view all sorts of reports, on all sorts of violations, by all sorts of countries, including the US. Nobody is perfect, but Israel -as well as the US - strive to improve their Human Rights records. They have consistently demonstrated their commitment to the rule of law, as well as democratic process; and that's undeniable.

There are indeed Jews who do not support Zionism. They are free to do so. However, if you look at the large majority of the Jewish community members, you will find that overwhelmingly Jews support Zionism.

Particular policies of a particular government are fair game. After all, it wasn't that long ago that US states had laws on the books allowing for some pretty obvious violations of very basic human rights, such as segregation. It took the Civil Rights movement of perfectly patriotic Americans, many of them of Jewish descent and faith I might add, to correct this wrong. The same phenomenon is now happening in Israel. It has a strong civil rights movement, which consists not only of the Arab Israelis, but also of many, many Jewish ones.

NewsGuy

06-07-2002, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1
However, if you view State Departments reports of Human Rights... abuses to female citizen's ... indecencies nor ... Zionist ideology... media black-out...[/B]

I don't buy this "America #1" stuff. I think that your views sound more like "al Qaeda #1", with views so distorted and disingenouos that only people like Mullah Omar and Saddam Hussein would be proud of this kind of anti-Israel drivel.

As you know, human rights abuses, and mistreatment of women is obviously an Arab problem. Yes, Israel does not offer Arab mass murderers 5-Star Hotel accommodations at the Hilton, and yes, prostitution exists in Israel, but none of these suppport the accusations you have been making. In fact, the U.S. has this week changed its laws to better respond to Islamic and Arab terrorism, realizing that now the U.S. is facing the same threats from the same people that Israel has been dealing with for decades. This means that the relationship between legitimate policing of Islamic terrorists and human rights issues is once again, about to change even here in the U.S. Maybe you don't think that the U.S. is a democracy also, but that's a whole separate matter.

As for your complete lack of understanding of Israel's Jewish character, I would suggest that you study UN Resoultion 181 before spouting more Arab propaganda. When you are able to become a little more educated on the subject, you will realize that the UN calls for Israel to be a JEWISH state -- not a Muslim state, not a Christian state, but a Jewish state. Maintaining a Jewish majority in the Jewish state is not discrimination, it is compliance with the UN resolution.

I also laugh at the suggestion that Israel is not a democratic state. That is total and utter nonesense. Again, you need to study what it means to be a democracy. I'll give you a hint: It does NOT mean needing to comply with the wishes of al Qaeda, or Saddam Hussein, or Yassir Arafat, or Mullah Omar, as apparently you seem to think. Israel is a shining example of a democracy in a sea of brutal Arab dictatorships.

Mediocrates

06-07-2002, 09:33 AM

Substitute the PLO for the Catholic church and you have the point of view of the apologists of murder. Of course they're still worshipping the Devil; they simply pretend the sun shines from the Devil's ass.

"According to the tale, an atheist traveled to Rome to check out the Catholic Church, and saw, through some odd gift of divine grace, that the Devil himself was sitting at on the throne of St. Peter and ruling the Church disguised as a Pope. The atheist reflected upon the paradox and then became a devout Roman Catholic. Why? He reasoned that only the one true faith could succeed with the Devil himself in charge." (courtesy of slashdot.org)

AmericaNumber1

06-07-2002, 09:34 AM

I don't buy this "America #1" stuff. I think that your views sound more like "al Qaeda #1", with views so distorted and disingenouos that only people like Mullah Omar and Saddam Hussein would be proud of this kind of anti-Israel drivel.

Well, "newsguy", as this thread is about the link between AntiIsraelism and Antisemitism, let me clear something up: my favor of America does not mean I am an Al-Queda or Arab supporter. In fact, that is quite ridiculous when you think about it.

My views were bred from the accusations of antisemitism. Yes, anyone who critiques Israel is somehow "antisemitic" according to many brainiacs on this board. It's the old trump card, "remember the halocaust", backed-into-a-corner and dont-know-where-to-run answer to nullifying anyones criticisms about Israel!

I make accusations? or do I cite my source? The State Department web site has the glorious details of Israel's human rights abuses. For you to associate the abuses as a primarily "arab" thing is to validate my claim that Israel is not "just for Jews".

Isn't it convenient to cite UN Resolutions only when they support your argument? What do you say about the Resolutions Israel has broken? Will you deny they broke any resolutions? No, Newsguy, you'll justify Israel breaking the UN resloutions. But, its OK to use them to your advantage!

cerulean

06-07-2002, 09:36 AM

It's somewhat amazing the extraordinary interest of some in one small country's immigration policies, when the said country has welcomed more immigrants in need as a proportion of its population than likely any other country on earth.

elke

06-07-2002, 10:01 AM

A#1, your argument(s?) are rather disjointed.

First of all, if you look through the whole thread, you will see that the consensus was that there is a difference between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel, although many times criticism of Israel is nothing more than anti-semitism in disguise.
Persons who criticize Israel for specific actions rather than from the standpoint of anti-semitism, need to make their criticism based on specific facts. Your statement that Israel is not a democracy because it's a Jewish state, for instance, is a classic neo-anti-semitic statement, since the definition of democracy says absolutely nothing about cultural makeup of a country but refers to a specific form of government.

Citing only certain UN resolutions is not unique to Israel. UN is a political body that attempts to be a world government, but its individual members are still sovereign states. Most countries that are members of the UN have, at one time or another, ignored UN resolutions. Others have implemented them way after they were passed. In addition, as all laws, UN resolutions are purposefully vague. The detailed logistical plans are left to the parties to negotiate. When Israel signed peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan, they - as well as Egypt and Jordan - have implemented certain UN resolutions, or portions thereof. To blame Israel alone for non-compliance with UN resolutions is at best, ignorant, and at worst - anti-semitic.

L@mplighterM

06-07-2002, 12:07 PM

Attn: AmericaNumber1

In post # 118 you write this:

Why do Jews equate a whole country to themselves? Isn't that antidemocratic and blatantly racist?

A few posts later you write the following:

In fact, if you look at Israel STATISTICALLY...20% of Israeli's are of Arab descent. In other words, Israel is NOT a wholly Jewish State nor does it BELONG to Jews.

If you truly believe what you write how come you changed your point of view within a day? You’re nothing but a flaming Arab or Muslim.

AmericaNumber1

06-07-2002, 01:29 PM

In post # 118 you write this:

Why do Jews equate a whole country to themselves? Isn't that antidemocratic and blatantly racist?

A few posts later you write the following:

In fact, if you look at Israel STATISTICALLY...20% of Israeli's are of Arab descent. In other words, Israel is NOT a wholly Jewish State nor does it BELONG to Jews.

If you truly believe what you write how come you changed your point of view within a day? You’re nothing but a flaming Arab or Muslim.

Isnt it funny how someone has an opinion about something and their suddenly an ethnic stereotype. "Muslim"...LOL..."Arab"...LOL....I MUST BE one of these. LOL........i'll bet you dont get out much....

elke

06-07-2002, 02:40 PM

L@mplighterM

06-07-2002, 03:18 PM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1

LOL!!! Have you no reading comprehension skills? The fact that I asked makes you believe I think Jews own Israel??

Anyway, "lamplighter", light that bulb in your mind and realize I was asking a question not making a statement.

Isnt it funny how someone has an opinion about something and their suddenly an ethnic stereotype. "Muslim"...LOL..."Arab"...LOL....I MUST BE one of these. LOL........i'll bet you dont get out much....

I was going to write that if you aren't a Muslim or an Arab you must be 'white trash' but I decided that it might be considered a racist statement and so I decided against it.

I concede that I'm not the smartest person in the world and so I asked for a second opinion. As a result I'm standing by my interpretation of the post.

I don't see your post # 118 being one that asks philosophical questions. I believe it's clearly your opinion that Israel is opposed to democracy and should be considered a racist society. Further, because Israel has taken the position that it doesn't want to open its borders to terrorists it should be considered what you refer to as antidemocratic and blatantly racist.

Israel however has an Arab population that has the democratic right to vote in any election.

In another post you take the position that 20% of Jews are really descended from Arabs.

Therefore you can't imply that Jews are excluding Arabs from Israel if you take the position that 20% of Jews are descended from Arabs. Even if you were completely ignorant of the fact that a million plus Arabs live in Israel you still had the opinion that 20% of Jews are descended from Arabs.

This gave me the opinion that you must be a flamer that makes whatever statement that comes to mind in an attempt to upset posters.

NewsGuy

06-07-2002, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by AmericaNumber1
... let me clear something up: my favor of America does not mean I am an Al-Queda or Arab supporter. In fact, that is quite ridiculous when you think about it.

Please show me where exactly you "favor America," because so far, all I see is that you criticize America's only democratic ally in the Mideast, and you apparently support all the anti-Israel positions of America's enemies.

Yes, anyone who critiques Israel is somehow "antisemitic" according to many brainiacs on this board. It's the old trump card, "remember the halocaust", backed-into-a-corner and dont-know-where-to-run answer to nullifying anyones criticisms about Israel!
Not only is that of course not true, but it is part and parcel of Arab and neo-Nazi propaganda.

Most people I know who legitimately oppose the current Israeli government's battle against Arab terrorism, don't suffer from amnesia about the many offers of statehood and independence for the Palestinians extended by various Israeli governments.

There is a simple test about whether someone is anti-Semitic or anti-Israeli: Is that person opposed to a particular government's position, or are they opposed to ALL Israeli governments' positions historically, since there is so much variance.

So, please tell us something "#1," which Israeli government's policies have you ever supported?

Or, is it as I suspect that you oppose the right of the Jews to live in Israel or defend themselves against the Jihad-genocide launched by the Arabs against Israel?

Isn't it convenient to cite UN Resolutions only when they support your argument? What do you say about the Resolutions Israel has broken? Will you deny they broke any resolutions? No, Newsguy, you'll justify Israel breaking the UN resloutions. But, its OK to use them to your advantage!

This is something that many uninformed Arab apologists love to ask. Here's an answer stated a simply as possible:

Israel was created by the UN and specifically designated by UN mandate as a JEWISH state.

UN has guaranteed Israel the right to live in SECURE BORDERS. That means that Israel must go about enduring the security of its citizens by setting its borders to provide security. Israel has complied, but the Arabs, by repeatedly attacking Israel are in violation of the UN resolutions.

The UN has guaranteed Israel that it must be recognized by all countries in the region. Again, Israel has complied, but the Arabs are in violation of this UN resolution.

The UN has condemned terrorism and has demanded an end to terrorism. Once again, the Arabs are in violation of this resolution.

The UN Charter expressly authorizes Israel to take military action against the Arab terrorists. Israel is in compliance.

So, the bottom line is that Israel has complied with the UN resolutions, but its Arab enemies, who are also the enemies of the U.S. have been in violation of the UN resolutions.