Why is the whole world against Israel?

[NewsGuy]

Well, I guess it might be time to tackle the question of why is the entire world criticising Israel and demanding that Israel stop its war on terrorism, when so much progress has already been made.

It is a peculiar situation, especially after the Islamic terrorist attacks of 9-11 and the world's strong response to those attacks, which is completely different than the world's response to Israel's war on Palestinian terrorism.

Some say the media is to blame, but even after 18 months of Palestinian slaughter of innocent Israelis, which was televised in most of the civilized world, it is still felt that Israel has no right to battle the Arab terrorists.

So why is it that the world is actively trying to save the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure form defeat? Why is it that the world is vehemently against Israel?

Should be an interesting discussion...

[Flame]

Well News Guy... in the Jewish tradition of answering a question with a question... why does the world love islamic terrorists and the palestinians so much? Apparently if the "whole world" is rooting for them.. they must be very very special and unique. Yes?

Perhaps 1/6 of the worlds population is suffering even greater than the P's and yet where's the collective anger and outcry for those other billion or so?

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by NewsGuy
So why is it that the world is actively trying to save the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure form defeat? Why is it that the world is vehemently against Israel?

I can answer this.

The answer is "the 1960s."

There was a cultural revolution in the West during the 1960s. It transformed our politics, media, and most importantly our educational system.

The main result of this cultural revolution was the rejection of traditional values. For example, instead of trying to be as objective as possible, today's media believes that since total objectivity is impossible there is no sense in even trying.

In education, this cultural revolution has led to content-less "learning." Very few schools teach history anymore; instead, students are asked to share their opinions regarding current events. In general, the idea that you have to work hard to learn (and that you learn best from a great teacher) has been tossed out the window in favor of the idea that learning must be fun and "self-directed."

This has led to a situation in which everyone knows that Israel "occupies" the West Bank and Gaza, but very few know why. It is assumed that Israel is the last colonial power.

Another example of the bizarre impact of this cultural revolution. After 9-11, instead of critically examining Islamic society, most Western countries have rushed to assure their citizens that Islam is not the problem -- no one should dare draw any conclusions from the fact their were 19 Islamicists onboard those planes!

According to the cultural revolution, those who are poor are good and those who are rich are bad. (They must have done something wrong, otherwise how did they get to be prosperous?) The Jews are a minority, but they manage to succeed as individuals; thus, they are part of the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant oppressor.

This problem will not be solved until there is a return to high standards of academic excellence.

Unfortunately, I must admit that Jews are very much a part of the problem. They are prominent in education and media, and many have taken a leading role in pushing anti-academic education and anti-objective news reporting.

It's time to wake up, particularly in education. The purpose of school is not to make every student, whether they are smart or dumb, work hard or goof off, feel "self-esteem." The purpose is not to avoid memorizing anything (much of what we truly learn is memorized or is built on top of knowledge committed to memory). The purpose of education is not to learn how to work as a group.

The purpose of education is not to "learn how to learn" as the scam artists tell us, but to actually learn specific facts and skills.

To wit, the world is almost univerally opposed to Israel for one simple reason: ignorance.

[L@mplighterM]

One thing that I can’t understand is why there’s so much anti Israeli sentiment. Since 9/11to the present there’s been a lot of racism directed at non- whites (Muslims) in EU countries.

I have spoken to many individuals in EU after the 9/11 incident and they feared Islamic Fundamentalists yet they never seemed to make the connection between Arafat and the Fundamentalists.

Sharon was considered evil, a bastard or the devil as far as they were concerned.

I think it’s ironic that these are the people that want Israel to withdraw immediately and leave the terrorists organizations in tact and let them continue killing Israelis.

[cerulean]

Originally posted by ibrodsky

...
The main result of this cultural revolution was the rejection of traditional values. For example, instead of trying to be as objective as possible, today's media believes that since total objectivity is impossible there is no sense in even trying.

...
This problem will not be solved until there is a return to high standards of academic excellence.


This is a very interesting way of looking at the situation. Paul de Man, one of the main French deconstructionists and proponent of this idea that objectivity is impossible was a secret Nazi collaborator. Cause, effect, or coincidence, I wonder? (I guess deconstructionism has had more impact other than just creating a mound of unreadable dreck for graduate students to plow through.)

I recall one of ibrodsky's previous posts where he pointed out there is little point in an essay asking for a student's opinion on a complex issue when there is no indication the student has studied the subject at all. I agree. I think continuous polling, among other things, may lead to the idea that people should have uninformed opinions on everything.

Still, it's possible to have a rigorous academic system that is permeated with bias, so that alone is not sufficient. But a rigorous academic system is necessary.

[muslim4israel2]

I think your being a tad OTT. The press criticises Arafat 24/7 and occasionally has a dip at Israel to. Its strictly business.

[NewsGuy]

IMO, the world's generally anti-Israel positions originate from a combination of factors, rather than from any one particular source:

1. For economic reasons, including the choice to sell-out their so-called civilized values of justice to appease a potential market of 1.25 Billion Muslims.

2. For further economic reasons, including the choice to quite possibly cause the destruction of Israel and a massacre of its entire Jewish population, in return for a free-flow of Arab oil.

3. For local political reasons, mainly to appease the enormous Muslim voter block which exists in most democratic countries around the world. One chief example of this is France, which has become, for all intents and purposes, a virtual Arab colony, with its ruling 15% of the population sufficient to determine local and nationwide election outcomes. As a result, France has become the global center of anti-Israeli policy and anti-Semitic violence.

4. Arab lies are successful at influencing a young, gullible and often stupid group of people, who rally against Israel because they have run out of attractive causes to adopt. So, when they hear the Arab lies, which use terms like "occupation, massacres, oppression, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, etc.," they are duped into mistakenly believing that these terms have anything whatsoever to do with Israel's actions. In fact, they are brainwashed into shutting out the truth, which is that all those terms are exactly the reality in most every Arab countries, and certainly in the Palestinian case.

5. Good old anti-Semitism which exists and is more accpetable than any other form of racism on the face of the planet. If the statements used against Israel, and the acts of anti-Semitism which are now taking place worldwide, would have been directed against, say blacks or Muslims, there would be a huge outcry against such racism, which now rivals anti-Semitic Europe in the eve of the Nazi era.

6. Biased UN resolutions, which have been produced by a shameful process of political anti-Semitism, sponsored by the Arab states and their global oil slaves. The quasi-legitimacy of these outrageous resolutions provides a fig-leaf for the anti-Israel positions of many countries in the world.

7. Fear of Islamic extremist attacks on the anti-Israeli countries themselves. Many countries live in constant fear, under explicit threats from Islamic terrorist groups that certain countries will be spared from Islamic acts of mass murder, only if those countries remain staunchly anti-Israel. Under Islamic blackmail and fear of becoming the next country with a 9-11 situation, the appeasement of the Arabs continues unabated.

8. Honest mistakes and ignorance of historical facts. There exist some people who truly believe (albeit mistakenly) that Israel is wrong to exist on land that they are not aware that it is originally Jewish land. As such, they do not view the Palestinians as squatters in the Jewish homeland, but rather as legitimate residents who are entitled to displace the Jews.

* * *

So there you have it. Not a simple answer, but what I have seen to be at the root of the world's generally anti-Israeli positions. This explains the world's unanimous condemnation of Israel's destruction of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons reactor in 1982, as well as Israel's current struggle for survival in its war against Palestinian terrorism. However, it is important to distinguish between the official anti-Israel position of many governments, and the popular position of their citizens. Very often, the government's position only reflects that of its Muslim citizens, and not that of the general population. And, other times the two coincide.

Note: As always, please feel free to use my posts as you please in any other forum, discussion, academc setting, etc. A link back to IsraelForum.com would be appreciated, but not required.

[L@mplighterM]

So there you have it. Not a simple answer, but what I have seen to be at the root of the world's generally anti-Israeli positions. This explains the world's unanimous condemnation of Israel's destruction of Saddam Hussein's nuclear weapons reactor in 1982, as well as Israel's current struggle for survival in its war against Palestinian terrorism. However, it is important to distinguish between the official anti-Israel position of many governments, and the popular position of their citizens. Very often, the government's position only reflects that of its Muslim citizens, and not that of the general population. And, other times the two coincide.

Israel bombed the Osirak reactor in Iraq in June of 1981 and totally destroyed the reactor. Late in the previous year I think it was September or October 1980 Iran had bombed it.

If my memory serves me they flew in over the Persian Gulf in newly gotten F-15 that they had acquired from the US. The planes had been destined for Iran but due to an arms embargo against that country Israel lucked out.

At the time there was worldwide condemnation against Israel. In 1991 or thereabouts Israel received a plaque from the US (or was some high official in Israel that received the plaque) thanking it for its role in destroying the reactor.

[McSceptic]

I think L@mplighter's point 8 covers it: the idea that land belongs to one special people. That's viewed as being the same as Nazism.

All the rest is just argument over detail: how much land, where and when.

[cerulean]

McSkeptic, you are referring to NewsGuy's point #8. In any event, it's interesting that you say people view Zionism as equivalent with Nazism. (That's what I understand anyway.)

Nazism was clearly about conquest. Otherwise, why all the invasions on different fronts? The Nazis wanted every country in Europe and I don't know what else besides.

Zionism is about having one small homeland for a people who have been persecuted for millenia.

[McSceptic]

Ooops! Yes, I mean Newsguy's point 8. Apologies.

Yes, I'd say that that is the view in much of Europe, that Zionism is just another kind of Fascism - putting one people ahead of everyone else.

The German experience is obviously somewhat different, and motivated in large part by paranoia. Germany has no natural borders and for a long time was surrounded by stronger and hostile powers: France and Russia. That's what motivated their 1940s invasions - but they didn't want to clear Western Europe, only establish amenable regimes. They did want to clear out the Slavs in the east who they regarded as inferior people and to ensure that Germany had room to grow in that direction.

Israel may be a small country as you say, but if the price of its establishement was that Israelis took your house and farm, you'd be pretty upset. Just as the Poles were when the Germans came calling.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Israel may be a small country as you say, but if the price of its establishement was that Israelis took your house and farm, you'd be pretty upset. Just as the Poles were when the Germans came calling.

But Israel didn't (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf3.html#b).

[ibrodsky]

Back to the question...

I agree with Newsguy that there is no single answer. However, I think we can boil it down to three factors:

1. Ignorance about the roots of the conflict,
2. Anti-semitism, and
3. Intimidation.

Much of the world assumes Israel is a colonial power, engaged in "illegal occupation," and practicing "apartheid" because the Palestinian side has made more effective use of the Big Lie than anyone since the Nazis. The basic technique is quite simple: just keep repeating the same words and, if there are not enough people to effectively counter them, in time they will be accepted as truth.

While not everyone who is against Israel is anti-semitic, it needs to be recognized that condemnation of Israel provides great cover for anti-semites. This is a respectable way for them to attack Jews.

Finally, one must wonder why the US has not concluded that Arafat is a terrorist and must be brought to justice. Clearly, there is much fear in the West of an "explosion" of anger in the Arab/Islamic world. If you were Pres. Bush, would you not be at least a little afraid that terrorists will target you personally if you appear too determined to fight Palestinian terrorism?

At some point, civilization must wake up. There is no place in a civilized world for homicide bombers. The Big Lie must be fought, not appeased. We need courageous leaders. It's been shown over and over that the forces of darkness (e.g., militant Islam) will only be emboldened by the nice gestures and fair-mindedness. Their goal is death and destruction, and any sign that we are not willing or able to meet the challenge head on only gives them encouragement.

[TexasMan]

I personally don't understand it. In America 76% of the people support israel. From my talks with them they are harder on the palestinians than israel has been. The media is really holding public sentiment back.

As far as antisemitism goes I don't really see much here in Texas. I never have understood how you could hate Jews. All I have ever meet are really good and neat people. I never have understood that.

A LOT of Americans are behind Israel. Kepp up the good work and be safe my friends.

Texasman

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by TexasMan
All I have ever meet are really good and neat people.

Well, actually, I do have a graivy stain on my shirt. :rolleyes:

[L@mplighterM]

Is it kosher?

[Oh Jerusalem]

The shirt? :cool:

[L@mplighterM]

Didn’t know they had edible shirts in Israel. I was actually referring to the stain.

Off topic I was reading in The Daily Telegraph that a black van was parked in front of the synagogue in Tunisia (according to an eye witness) and it was the van that exploded.

Segment:

One survivor told the German newspaper Bild am Sontag the blast did not come from a passing fuel tanker but a van that had been parked outside the entrance to the synagogue.

[L@mplighterM]

Nazism was clearly about conquest. Otherwise, why all the invasions on different fronts? The Nazis wanted every country in Europe and I don't know what else besides.

I agree!

My understanding is that Adolph Hitler wanted to carve out a Monolithic Empire and his goal was World Conquest.


Deutschland ueber Alles translates into Germany over all. In other words world domination.

[Tiffy]

Hi,
I am a new member and I would like to reply to your question: I am (still) a German and live with my husband in the US. I attend the German YAHOO Forum and am shocked to read some of the hate mail against Israel. I have asked the Question why do you Germans/Europeans hate the Jewish people so much, but received no reply. Instead I was told I am a dirty and nasty American and I should keep my mouth shut.
Well, this girl won't keep her mouth shut !!!!!!

Tiff

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Tiffy
Hi,
I am a new member and I would like to reply to your question: I am (still) a German and live with my husband in the US. I attend the German YAHOO Forum and am shocked to read some of the hate mail against Israel. I have asked the Question why do you Germans/Europeans hate the Jewish people so much, but received no reply. Instead I was told I am a dirty and nasty American and I should keep my mouth shut.
Well, this girl won't keep her mouth shut !!!!!!

Tiff

I think it’s fair to say that anti-Semitism is alive and well in Germany. Germany has been plagued with racism and neo-nazism somewhat more than the rest of Europe for some time. France and Belgium are surely currently number 1 and 2 respectively.

Ironically the neo-nazis and the Islamic Fundamentalists have a strange alliance in the US whereas the same doesn’t appear to hold true in Germany.
Many racist motivated crimes in Germany are directed at foreigners and in fact there have been many riots where buildings ended up on fire. The exact cities and dates escape me at the moment and I’m not up to researching it to support my statements.

Why does anyone hate Jews? I might ask the question why does anyone hate?

Insofar as hating Jews and anti-Semitism I would think that anytime anyone puts anyone down they elevate themselves. Anytime anyone makes anyone less important they make themselves more important. I believe it would be fair to say that very few people are colorblind.

Sometimes people get caught up in a wave and want to identify with the masses. I don’t think it’s too different from people wearing brand name clothes.

Misinformation and propaganda also plays an important part when it comes to hate. How many people really take time to research a subject before deciding whether or whether not they should align themselves with a side?

I suppose religion also plays a part when it comes to hating or mistrusting a group. As you know Jews have synagogues and the Christians have churches. Jews generally do not consider Sundays the Lords Day and that makes them different. By the way I’m an atheist.

The list goes on………………………………………………….and I’m not up to writing a book.

This is only an opinion.

[General X]

Glad to see that there is anti-anti-Semetism (Semetism?) in Germany.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Mideast war exposes ugly Europeans (http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/columnists/story.html?f=/stories/20020415/641394.html)

Another sock-it-to-'em Canadian National Post (http://www.nationalpost.com/) article by Mark Steyn (again, not a Jew himself)

[McSceptic]

Actually, Ijust got back from Germany (great food if you like eating pigs, but I guess that isn't kosher :).

The debate there seems to be becoming a lot more critical. Previously it was really only the extreme left or right (for different reasons, one pro-Palestinian, the other anti-Jewish) that were against the existence of Israel.

Now criticism of Israel is becoming mainstream and respectable, and I think you will see a much less kneejerk pro-Israeli position than Germany has held since the last war.

[McSceptic]

The Germans (some of them, anyway) did want to be "over all". Interestingly, for them this was primarily about spirituality. The Nazis considered themselves a spritual people, and therefore better than, say, the Jews who they saw as materialists. It's the people with some screwed-up non-negotiable spiritual reference point that cause the most trouble in the world.

Incidentally, re the Polish comparison, I've heard the figure of 400 Palestinian villages cleared and taken over by Israelis.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Incidentally, re the Polish comparison, I've heard the figure of 400 Palestinian villages cleared and taken over by Israelis.

I've heard that Israel has poisoned the Arabs water supply and infected their children with aids. I am very capable of making up stories and figures.

Indeed there were a handful or two of villages in the Galilee whose inhabitants were expelled. Mostly, though villages were either abandoned or left, with the anticipation of the Arab armies annihilating Israel first. See The Palestinian Refugees (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/refugees.html).

[McSceptic]

Yes, I've read different accounts of how the Palestinian population came to be refugees.

But whether they fled through fear or were forced out through force of arms, what happend to their property?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Read:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#g
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#h
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#j

[Oh Jerusalem]

Were the Palestinians Expelled? (http://www.netanyahu.org/werpalex.html)

[takeo]

couldn't it just be that the world is against israel because it is still occupying land that doesn't belong to Israel?
and because it ignores un-resolutions?
I don't know any state since 1945 who got away with such acts without reprecussions. So the question should be, why isn't israel punished as other states who did the same thing?
THIS would be an interesting question

[takeo]

And for th last time, Belgium nor France are not anti-semitic countries, they just feel that israel can't ignore the Geneva-conventions, un-resolutions and can't be given a free hand in territory that doesn't belong to israel.
Belgium and France want to treat israel the same way the world treated iraq, Yougoslavia or indonesia, and we consider that israel doesn't deserve to be treated any different from other countries.
The US however considers israel as its special friend and will accept a lot more from Israel than from other countries. This however is in contradiction to international justice and the principles on which the UN was based.

[takeo]

and a question to all of you, Israel occupied westbank, Gaza and eastern jerusalem in 1967, why do you think israel has the right to keep this territories and build jewish settlements (in contradiction to the 4th article of the Geneva-convention)?
and why wasn't indonesia allowed to keep east-timor and wasn't iraq allowed to keep kouweit?
What makes israel so special that it has rights other countries don't have?
Do you think that the situation of the palestinians since the 70's in the occupied territories was fair and that they had no reason to complain or fight?
Do you think that the palestinians are an inferior people that doesn't deserve to have the same rights as the Jewish people?
Do you think that a state can have the right to refuse the come-back of refugees who lived for centuries in your land if you think they are hostile?
if so, why didn't the Serbs had the right to do so with the Kosovars?
Was the world wrong to condamn Serbia for fighting Albanian terrorism? if not, what's the difference with Israel? (apart from the fact that kosovo is a part of Serbia and the occupied territories are no part of Israel)

[muslim4israel2]

Hypocricy there dude.

Cant have special nations, thats "un democratic". :p

[Shuki]

The world agrees that Israel has completely pulled out of Lebanon. Yet Israel continues to be attacked by hezbollah. Why isn't there more of an outcry against Hezbollah.

As has been stated numerous times, but never responded to: Jordan and Egypt had control of the West Bank and Gaza between 1948-1967. Why didn't they offer any land to the Palestinians.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by McSceptic
Interestingly, for them this was primarily about spirituality. The Nazis considered themselves a spritual people, and therefore better than, say, the Jews who they saw as materialists.
Just when I thought I've hear it all, I'm amazed all over again at the bizarre statements that come up on the Internet.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
And for th last time, Belgium nor France are not anti-semitic countries, they just feel that israel can't ignore the Geneva-conventions, un-resolutions and can't be given a free hand in territory that doesn't belong to israel.
Right, the explosion of violence against Jews in those countries would never indicate anti-Semitism. Not in France and Belgium, no, never.

Rather, it must be in French terms, a sure sign of their deep appreciation for their Jewish citizens and a highly civilized expression of their political viewpoints about the UN.

Belgium and France want to treat israel the same way the world treated iraq
Actually, France, as an Arab country itself, was very much opposed to action against Iraq, and in fact, sabotaged the international effort by denying the international community flying rights during the war.

If France had a shred of human decency, it would be calling for the destruction of terrorist supporting countries like France's allies Syria, Iran, Hizbullah, etc.

To a great extent, France is the political arm of terrorists organizations and brutal dictatorships like the ones I just mentioned, so I really cannot take the French-Arab position too seriously about much of anything. Abu Verdine and Abu Chirac don't impress me at all.

[McSceptic]

quote:
Originally posted by McSceptic:

"Interestingly, for them this was primarily about spirituality. The Nazis considered themselves a spritual people, and therefore better than, say, the Jews who they saw as materialists."

"Just when I thought I've hear it all, I'm amazed all over again at the bizarre statements that come up on the Internet."

Ey! The Nazis really did think that. They were against captialism (a Jewish idea), Communism (also a Jewish idea), Freudianism (also a Jewish idea, hey is this a pattern), consumerism (a, well you get the picture). Jewish people as a sort of universal scapegoat tying together all the strings, all aimed of course at ensnaring Aryan Man, that noblest and most spiritual of creatures.

I'm moving house at the moment so my copy of Mein Kampf (man, what a trippy book, even less sense than the Koran) is packed away, but I'll turn you up some corroborating evidence tomorrow.

[takeo]

Newsguy, would you please be so kind to answer my questions (and not trying to change subject)? i'm particularly interested in your answer...

"Right, the explosion of violence against Jews in those countries would never indicate anti-Semitism. Not in France and Belgium, no, never. "

there is violence against Jews and anti-semites even in the States, I live here amongst Jews and Arabs and never saw an "explotion of violence". jews are represented in every level of French society and will never have a problem because they are Jewish, even the French prime minister has jewish roots.


"Actually, France, as an Arab country itself, was very much opposed to action against Iraq, and in fact, sabotaged the international effort by denying the international community flying rights during the war. "

I don't know if you remember well, but France actively participated in the Gulf-war against Iraq along with the US, Syria, GB, etc. ...

"If France had a shred of human decency, it would be calling for the destruction of terrorist supporting countries like France's allies Syria, Iran, Hizbullah, etc. "

No, on the contrary to Israel these countries are not occupying land of their neighbours, they may help the palestinians in their fight against Israel but that is their free choice to do so, as it is the free choice of the US to help Israel.
hesbollah is not allowed to shoot at israeli territory but Syria is not obliged to stop them, as it is virtually at war with israel since israel took the golan-heights and never returned them.

the world agreed that Israel pulled out of libanon, yes, but it DIDN'T pull out of syria and palestine. Libanon has been urged by several countries, including France, to stop the hesbollah attacks on Israel. However Israel went out of Libanon without a peace-treaty, and libanon is an ally of Syria, and everybody agrees that libanon will not recognise israel as long as it doesn't pull out of palestine and syria as well, the allies of Libanon.

Jordan nor Egypt ever gave the land to the palestinians, because these lands were recognised by the world as parts of egypt and Jordan. However later Jordan and egypt choose to give these lands to the inhabitants, the palestinians. The palestinians themselves preferred to live under Egyptian or Jordan rule than under israeli rule, but now they prefere to be an independant nation, a demand that has been recognised by the world. The difference is that westbank and Gaza never rightfully belonged to israel as they did to egypt or Jordan (israel received in 1949 the other parts of Palestine which are now legitimate parts of Israel)

[McSceptic]

Mein Kampf on differences between "Aryans" and "Jews":

"The readiness to sacrifice one’s personal work and, if necessary, even one’s life for others shows its most highly developed form in the Aryan race. The greatness of the Aryan is not based on his intellectual powers, but rather on his willingness to devote all his faculties to the service of the community. Here the instinct for self-preservation has reached its noblest form; for the Aryan willingly subordinates his own ego to the common weal and when necessity calls he will even sacrifice his own life for the community. "

"No; the Jews have not the creative abilities which are necessary to the founding of a civilization; for in them there is not, and never has been, that spirit of idealism which is an absolutely necessary element in the higher development of mankind. Therefore the Jewish intellect will never be constructive but always destructive. At best it may serve as a stimulus in rare cases but only within the meaning of the poet’s lines: ‘The Power which always wills the Bad, and always works the Good’ (Kraft, die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft). It is not through his help but in spite of his help that mankind makes any progress. "

MK is stuffed full of this stuff (along with asides on Vienniese social democracy, urban regeneration and failing to get into art school).

[Vic]

Maybe there is some specific psychological effect at work as well. Could it be a case of "top-level" mobbing? This is what Kofi Annan's statement "Israel is right and the rest of the world is wrong" sounds like. Sort of "Israel-bashing is plain fun, guys"...

[L@mplighterM]

Quote from takeo:

Newsguy, would you please be so kind to answer my questions (and not trying to change subject)? i'm particularly interested in your answer...

Talk about calling the kettle black.

*LOL*

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
Newsguy, would you please be so kind to answer my questions (and not trying to change subject)? i'm particularly interested in your answer...
I didn't change the subject as far as I know.

But if I missed a particular question or issue you raised, plese let me know and I'll be glad to respond.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
No, on the contrary to Israel these countries are not occupying land of their neighbours, they may help the palestinians in their fight against Israel but that is their free choice to do so, as it is the free choice of the US to help Israel.
No, they are not just "helping the Palestinians in their fight against Israel," as you claim. Rather, they are supplying weapons, training and financing to groups which are officially recognized as terrorists, who are slaughtering Israeli citizens and have mass murdered Americans and European citizens. This not only violates international law, but the one who pays for murder is considered as guilty as the murderer himself.

hesbollah is not allowed to shoot at israeli territory but Syria is not obliged to stop them, as it is virtually at war with israel since israel took the golan-heights and never returned them.
Again, Syria is not being asked to be Israel's babysitter. But Iran is shipping missiles to Hizbullah through Syria and into Lebanon with Syrian cooperation, for one thing.

Also, Syria controls Lebanon through a military occupation and, therefore, is directly responsible for the acts of war being launched against Israeli population centers from its occupied territory of Lebanon.

Libanon has been urged by several countries, including France, to stop the hesbollah attacks on Israel. However Israel went out of Libanon without a peace-treaty, and libanon is an ally of Syria, and everybody agrees that libanon will not recognise israel as long as it doesn't pull out of palestine and syria as well, the allies of Libanon.
Well, as we know it was France which twisted the arm of the entire EU to keep Hizbullah off the list of terrorist organizations, despite firing missiles into Israeli population centers and despite kidnapping and murder of Israeli citizens. France is the European-based political arm of Islamic terrorism IMO, as well as a cesspool of anti-Semitism, so I find it amusing to hear how France opposes Hizbullah. It is simply not so.

As for "everyone" agreeing that Lebanon can keep on allowing for terrorism to be launched against Israel from its territory, because the Palestinians and the Syrians have rejected a peaceful settlement with Israel, that is also something that will not fly.

And, just for the record, Lebanon is not an ally of Syria, it is a puppet state under Syria's brutal military occupation.

The palestinians themselves preferred to live under Egyptian or Jordan rule than under israeli rule, but now they prefere to be an independant nation, a demand that has been recognised by the world.
LOL. :D

Is that why the Palestinians murdered the late King Hussein's father and also tried to assassinate King Hussein on at least 5 occasions?

To see how the Palestinians loved Jordan so much, you might want to check out some information about the Black September massacre of 1970.

During that typical example of an Arab vs. Arab intifada, Jordan slaughtered 20,000 Palestinian Fatah terrorists and deported the restof the PLO, after Arafat tried to overthrow Jordan's Hashemite ruler, King Hussein.

[takeo]

Yes i know that history of civil war in Jordan, anyway that was after Israel occupied the Westbank.
Since 1949 the majority of the Jordan population is composed of Palestinian refugees from Israel but the dictatorship of the king doesn't allow them any participation, that of course is still a cause for trouble.

"brutal military occupation"... LOL strange to hear that from a Sharon-supporter... to the contrary of the palestinians, Libanon has invited the Syrian troops in Libanon to protect it against palestinian refugees armed groups and israeli military incursions. The Syrian army never sealed off libanese cities, never build syrian colonies in Libanon and never destroyed libanese facilities and houses. if the libanese government would scide that the syrians are no longer wellcome they would disappear. Libanon is as much occupied by syria as Saoudi arabia is occupied by the United States. France as member of the EU did condamn several times hesbollah-attacks on Israeli soil since the israeli army retreated. But anyway the hesbollah, since israel made the very wise decision to stop the occupation of libanon, has not been a serious treath to Israel. The hizbollah will remain however a treat of some kind as long as Israel didn't stop the occupation of Syria and Palestine, everyone knows that it is impossible to separate the problems in Libanon (with a huge population of palestinian refugees) and those with Syria and Palestine.
the hizbollah is against the slaughtering of innocent civilians and it was a resistant organisation against the occupation of libanon, that's why many coutries refused to recognise it as a terrorist organisation. Nowadays Syria will not convice Libanon to do anything against the hisbollah as long as Israel is occupying parts of Syria, and quite frankly i think that's their right to do so.

"No, they are not just "helping the Palestinians in their fight against Israel," as you claim. Rather, they are supplying weapons, training and financing to groups which are officially recognized as terrorists, who are slaughtering Israeli citizens and have mass murdered Americans and European citizens. This not only violates international law, but the one who pays for murder is considered as guilty as the murderer himself. "

As the US is helping an occupying power with supplying weapons, financing and training...
Hisbollah is only officially recognised as terrorist by the US, not by the UN or the rest of the world. as far as i know the US isn't a world governing body...
Hamas on the contrary is recognised as a terrorist group because they murder civilians, but some countries (iran) refuse to recognise Hamas as a terrorist organisation because it is part of the struggle against the occupation power.
Let me remind you that the US supported many terrorist groups during its existance, as the contra's in Nicaragua and several death-squats in Latin-America. It also supports Hmong guerilla-groups against Laos and Vietnam (the leaders live in the us but the us refused to detain them).
my personal opinion is that hisbollah and hamas are terrorist organisations that can be a danger to any future peace-treaty and an excuse for Israel not to stop the occupation of syria and the palestinian territories, but I guess many defenders of the palestinians see them as a tool in the struggle as long as the war and the occupation is going on.

[Mediocrates]

Some people refuse to label Hezbollah a terrorist organization only because in the collapse and anarchy of Lebanon, Hezbollah takes on some of the roles of government. They operate schools and hospitals for example. And because the world community is loathe to do anything to intervene in Arab affairs, are perfectly happy to allow Hezbollah that role. If they kill civilians or lob rockets into Kiriat Shimona, well so what, is I imagine the official position of the EU and others.

Perish the though that any European body do anything to interfere with a rogue army headquartered in Damascus, operating out of southern Lebanon and funded and organized by Iranian secret service (the newly resurrected SAVAK operating as a terrorist supporter in opposition to the 'moderates' in Iran). No, wouldn't want to upset the apple cart. Better to let the kibutzniks take their beatings in the north.

[takeo]

No, the official position of the EU is, if Israel refuses to withdraw from Syria and palestine or act according to international rules, why should we consider a resistance-organisation as a terrorist organisation (as long as they don't mass-murder civilians)?
(the same happened in Turkey, if the Turkish government refuses to take into consideration any of the recommendations of the EU concerning human rights, democracy and negociations, why should the Kurdish rebels be labelled as terrorists?)
Anyway, i think that since te liberation of Libanon the hisbollah no longer has the right to attack israel from Libanon, if they do, than they are a terrorist organisation.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
1. and a question to all of you, Israel occupied westbank, Gaza and eastern jerusalem in 1967, why do you think israel has the right to keep this territories and build jewish settlements (in contradiction to the 4th article of the Geneva-convention)?

2. and why wasn't indonesia allowed to keep east-timor and wasn't iraq allowed to keep kouweit?

3.What makes israel so special that it has rights other countries don't have?
ok, maybe these were the questions I did not answer before. These are very good questions, takeo, because they get to the root of the excuses of many Arabs and their apologists.

There are a few issues here.

Let's take #3 first. Israel has never claimed any special rights that other countries don't have. On the contrary, Israel has only demanded to live within recognized and secure borders, as guaranteed to Israel by UN Resolutions 242 and 138, like any other country would.

The double standard in the Arab/Israeli conflict has always been imposed by the Europeans and the UN AGAINST Israel, claiming that mass murder of Israeli citizens is permissible, while no other country in the world would be expected to endure such acts of terrorism. In fact, the UN has never passed even a single resolution condemning the slaughter of Israeli citizens, nor acts of war of Arab countries against Israel.

So, when you talk about Israel expecting to be treated better than other nations, this is totally false because it is the EU and the UN which are in fact discriminating against Israel. What Israel wants is to be treated equally to all other countries. So far this has not happened.

As for question #2 about Indonesia, I really don't know the fine details of the conflict, but from what I know, E. Timor is likely to crumble becuase it is not a really a viable nation economically or culturally. We'll see yet how things wll turn out.

As for Kuwait, it was simply Bush Senior scared that oil production would be interrupted, plunging the world into an economic depression. It never had anything to do with right or wrong.

And in fact, I have always opposed that war, because to me personally, it makes no difference which dictator controls Kuwait, whether it is the Emir and his corrupt brutal dictatorship, or whether it is Saddam Hussein and his own brutal regime. For me, as an American, I have no desire to send our troops to play the world's policeman, especially when the outcome is totally irrelevant from a moral POV.

And just to show the enormous mistake that the US made by entering that war, even though we sent our soldiers to die needlessly for them, the government of Kuwait still does not support the US in its war on terrorism, and they are not even helping out to stabilize the price of oil to the US. Additionally, they are not even being helpful to the US in ending the Palestinians terrorism by demouncing suicide bombings.

So, all this goes to show what a huge mistake it was for the US and the world to get involved in preventing Saddam from taking over Kuwait.

As for question #3 , it is true that the Palestinians have legitimate complaints about Israel's settlement policy. I don't deny that at all. However... those complaints have been addressed by Israel in the process of peace negotiations, which included the dismatling of some settlements.

At the same time, let's not forget that it is also guaranteed to Israel under UN resolutions 242 and 138 to live within secure borders, and that definitely requires maintaining some of those settlements. Again, this is a matter to be resolved in peace negotiations, and every Israeli Prime Minister in the past 30 years has been willing to make painful concessions on this matter, including Ariel Sharon, who himself led the dismatling of settlements within the peace agreement with Egypt.

The obstacle at this point to a resolution of the settlement issue is one man, called Yassir Arafat, who is supported by Iran, Syria Saudi Arabia and al Qaeda, and given political support for his terrorism by France. Once Arafat is removed, then progress can be made on this issue.

[takeo]

"Let's take #3 first. Israel has never claimed any special rights that other countries don't have. On the contrary, Israel has only demanded to live within recognized and secure borders, as guaranteed to Israel by UN Resolutions 242 and 138, like any other country would. "

IF Israel demanded only to live within secure and recognised borders, why did it invade in 1968 and why did it refuse untill now to give those conquered regions back?
OK, Israel may have faced security problems before 1968, even some shooting occasionally and some treats from neighbouring countries (because of the refugee-problem), but there are other countries as well who have to deal with such problems, in Asia, in Africa, in Central America, etc. None of these countries did what Israel did, because they knew it wouldn't be accepted by the world. Also by doinf so israel created an even bigger problem, and certainly MORE insecurity than before 1967. (more incidents, more deaths)
there is also the refugee-problem, etnic cleansing on such a scale is not accepted nowhere in the world, we have seen it recently in Yougoslavia. People who fled the war or were forced to leave must have a chance to come back. If not, their presence in refugee-camps will always remain a treath... and Israel is no different from other countries in this matter.
There are the UN-resolutions recognising Israel, sure, ignored by most Arab countries untill pretty recently, but as well the un-resolutions attacking israel for the questions above. Israel however, to the contrary of many other countries, has not been punished for ignoring those UN-resolutions.

"The double standard in the Arab/Israeli conflict has always been imposed by the Europeans and the UN AGAINST Israel, claiming that mass murder of Israeli citizens is permissible, while no other country in the world would be expected to endure such acts of terrorism. In fact, the UN has never passed even a single resolution condemning the slaughter of Israeli citizens, nor acts of war of Arab countries against Israel. "

many un-resolutions call for an end of Palestinian terrorism against civilians, even recently, you know that as well...
What acts of war are you referring to? to my knowledge only 1973...



just some examples:
"10 September 1972
The Security Council,
Gravely concerned at the renewal of terrorist attacks on innocent persons,
Deploring the loss of innocent lives on both sides and the outbreak of renewed violence in the Middle East,
Convinced that acts of terrorism, and any encouragement and support for such acts, are totally unacceptable in a civilized society and are inimical to the maintenance of the cease-fire in the Middle East,
1. Condemns the senseless and unprovoked terrorist attack in Munich on 5 September by terrorists of the so-called Black September organization which resulted in the loss of life of numerous innocent victims;
2. Calls upon those States harbouring and supporting such terrorists and their activities to cease their encouragement and support of terrorists, and to take all necessary measures to bring about the immediate end of such senseless acts."



"SC Resolution 338 (1973) of 22 October 1973 [Adopted at 1747th meeting-unanimously]

Calls for an immediate cease-fire and termination of all military activity; calls upon the parties concerned to start immediately after the cease-fire the implementation of Security Council resolution 242 (1967) in all of its parts; and decides that immediately and concurrently with the cease-fire, negotiations start between the parties concerned under appropriate auspices aimed at establishing a just and durable peace in the Middle East." (the same words used to condamn the 1967 "pre-emptive strikes")"




"So, when you talk about Israel expecting to be treated better than other nations, this is totally false because it is the EU and the UN which are in fact discriminating against Israel. What Israel wants is to be treated equally to all other countries. So far this has not happened. "

OK, if this is what you want, you will for sure support a general embargo against israel for not stopping the occupation of Westbank and Gaza (as happened for Iraq) or at least the forced stationment of an international force as happened in Eastern Timor or Southern Morocco. we can as well bomb Israel for not wanting to negociate with terrorists and for human rights abuses in its war on terror (Yougoslavia). We will stop the discrimination of Israel and give it the same treatment as other countries who did similar things...



"As for question #2 about Indonesia, I really don't know the fine details of the conflict, but from what I know, E. Timor is likely to crumble becuase it is not a really a viable nation economically or culturally. We'll see yet how things wll turn out. "

Whatever, indonesia had no right to invade Eastern Timor, the Eastern Timorese wanted independance and after years of international pressure, condemnation AND war, Indonesia allowed to withdraw from Eastern timor. I think it is an economically viable nation (they have oil) but even if it is not, than it's none of the business of Indonesia.

"As for Kuwait, it was simply Bush Senior scared that oil production would be interrupted, plunging the world into an economic depression. It never had anything to do with right or wrong.
And in fact, I have always opposed that war, because to me personally, it makes no difference which dictator controls Kuwait, whether it is the Emir and his corrupt brutal dictatorship, or whether it is Saddam Hussein and his own brutal regime. For me, as an American, I have no desire to send our troops to play the world's policeman, especially when the outcome is totally irrelevant from a moral POV.
And just to show the enormous mistake that the US made by entering that war, even though we sent our soldiers to die needlessly for them, the government of Kuwait still does not support the US in its war on terrorism, and they are not even helping out to stabilize the price of oil to the US. Additionally, they are not even being helpful to the US in ending the Palestinians terrorism by demouncing suicide bombings. "

well I agree with you of course that this war was not about good or wrong but about oil, but from the us-viewpoint it was a necessary war, as the Kouweiti dictators are still a lot friendlier to the US than the Iraqi dicators. And the us (and israel) needs friendly dictators to make sure they don't make weapons of mass-destruction (and be at the same military level of Israel, who also was condamned for making weapons of mass-destruction...) , and to make sure the price of oil will not become too high (Kouweit may not always give in the us-pressure, it is still an independant country, right? but it is for sure more easy to deal with than Iraq)
but, anyway, THE OFFICIAL excuse for starving and bombing Iraq was that it invaded another country and that it was ignoring international law by doing so...

[takeo]

"As for question #3 , it is true that the Palestinians have legitimate complaints about Israel's settlement policy. I don't deny that at all. However... those complaints have been addressed by Israel in the process of peace negotiations, which included the dismatling of some settlements. "

OK

"At the same time, let's not forget that it is also guaranteed to Israel under UN resolutions 242 and 138 to live within secure borders, and that definitely requires maintaining some of those settlements. Again, this is a matter to be resolved in peace negotiations, and every Israeli Prime Minister in the past 30 years has been willing to make painful concessions on this matter, including Ariel Sharon, who himself led the dismatling of settlements within the peace agreement with Egypt. "

Yes, in Egypt yes, but NOT in gaza and Westbank. To my opinion, nor in the opinion of international law nor in the opinion of any military strategist can civilian settlements in occupied territories be a tool for security. On the contrary, all those soldiers needed to secure the settlements could be used to protect the borders of Israel, and all the money invested in those settlements could be invested in a more secure borders between israel and the occupied territories. Also the place of the settlements, far away from Israel most of the time with palestinian territory in between , makes clear that they are not there for security reasons but because israel tries to create a kind of demographic status-quo to claim the territories for itself (the same morocco is doing in westsahara) , this is also the case in Eastern Jerusalem. Israel also never explained to the colonisers that they would live there only temporary as a protection of Israel but that this would be their homes "in the new parts of Israel"...
I think that the always proceeding building of settlements, even under Oslo, shows that israel is not willing to giv away the Westbank and Gaza, EVER.
Israel also had 30 years the time the give them back, they had the chance in camp david (the first one) but refused, and untill end of the 80's there was no real violence in the occupied territories that could be used as an excuse to keep them for security-reasons.
Camp david two was an offer the palestinians couldn't accept (as a final offer) because it didn't give them controll over all of the occupied territories, besides they would still be a kind of protectorate of Israel (no controll over its own borders and airspace for example) .

"The obstacle at this point to a resolution of the settlement issue is one man, called Yassir Arafat, who is supported by Iran, Syria Saudi Arabia and al Qaeda, and given political support for his terrorism by France. Once Arafat is removed, then progress can be made on this issue."

LOL
Arafat is NOT supported but harshly criticised by Iran and even saoudi Arabia, for not being radical enough and willing to compromise too much with the israeli. The Iranians never forgave him that he recognised Israel.
And the claim about Al quada is even more absurd, Arafat was one of the first people to publicly condamn the attacks as barbarian.
Without Arafat you will have to discuss with Barghouti or even worse with hamas... noone else will be recognised by the palestinians. They will accept compromise but nothing less than a ful withdrawel from the occupied territories and a solution for the refugee-question. Some palestinians consider this TOO much compromise (but most don't), Arafat has convinced many people do do this compromise and to give up the original homeland.
If Sharon destroys Arafat he will find nobody to negociate with (and i'm afraid that is his real aim, because his followers will never allow him to quit the WB and Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem)

[Mediocrates]

"If Sharon destroys Arafat he will find nobody to negociate with (and i'm afraid that is his real aim, because his followers will never allow him to quit the WB and Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem)"


We hear this over and over and over as if it is a fact carved in alabaster and whispered from God's lips. Who says this is true? Why is there so much less disorder in Gaza? Could it be that the Gaza authorities maintaining PLO security cut their own deal with the IDF? Could it be that there are cooler heads there who understand the difference between the goal and the process? Could it?

We hear over and over St. Yasser being proclaimed the one true ruler of all Palestinians. If that's true then what's to be gained by the Israelis in negotiating with a defacto genetic monarch? Why not wait a few years, wait for him to die and let the whole place collapse in a mad struggle?

[takeo]

HEY, the Palestinians have choosen arafat in elections, remember? Also the whole world recognises arafat as the legal representative of the Palestinians.
israel doesn't have the right to choose the representative of the Palestinians, as the Palestinians don't have the right to negociate with anyone else as the elected and recognised leader of Israel.
By the way israel doesn't have the right either to choose who will be in the commission that will search for possible war-crimes in Jenin, only the UN will decide that and nobody else.

[Mediocrates]

Well make up your mind then. Either the Israelis have to work with Arafat because that's what nice countries do with each other's elected leaders, or, Israel has to deal with Arafat because he is an unopposed strongman and there is no other who has CNN on speed dial. In either case you've said elsewhere here that there is little if not nothing that Arafat can do to stop the terrorism. So what good is it to deal with an ineffectual self proclaimed tyrant?

[Northlander]

This is an interesting discussion. I have some understanding about the question. At least historically. Why have the world always hated the jews? I cant answer that. I wonder myself.
But the fact that people hate israel today is a totally different question. I have some things that I really think makes people see this conflict differently.

That always when you critisise Israel you are called Anti-Semit.
For no reason at all. After a few posts some of you guys alread says that France is a Arab country and so on. That is only redicilous. Soon the whole world will be islamic according to you.
Maybe Japan, I saw they will help the palestinians with alot of money this morning.

Israel consider themselves to be so different from all other people/countries that no rules apply to them. UN resolutions especially. Only in USA you have big support. Aparantly from Texas I saw here on this forum and why isnt that surprising :p
And USA cant live on the fact that they helped the world getting rid of Hitler which we are all very grateful of for all eternity.
Last 30 years they have supported alot of countries like South Africa, Irak, Afghanistan(the talibans) and numerous dictators in africa and s.america.
Israel would probaby be better of without american support as far as goodwill goes anyway. Maybe not when it comes to military support.

In most peoples mind that dont support your war against terrorism it all comes down to the fact that Israel is using religion and history as smokescreens to just continue its occupation and expansion of palestine territories.

Even the fact the its called "the holocaust" is not helping. It sounds like there has not been numerous of genocides before and after that. Like people should think that the jews have special rights because they alone have suffered throughout history.

[L@mplighterM]

Israel consider themselves to be so different from all other people/countries that no rules apply to them. UN resolutions especially. Only in USA you have big support. Aparantly from Texas I saw here on this forum and why isnt that surprising
And USA cant live on the fact that they helped the world getting rid of Hitler which we are all very grateful of for all eternity.

What UN Resolutions are you talking about when you suggest Israel violate Resolutions? Are you suggesting Arafat obeys the UN Resolutions?
What about the Oslo II Accord, Mitchell Accord and the Tenet Plan? Are you suggesting that Arafat is in compliance?

Even the fact the its called "the holocaust" is not helping. It sounds like there has not been numerous of genocides before and after that. Like people should think that the jews have special rights because they alone have suffered throughout history.

Jews aren?t asking for special rights. I think that you?re either a Islamic Fundamentalist posing as a white or Swede that can?t read.

[takeo]

Come on, lomplighter, do i have to post all those UN-resolutions AGAIN???
ps: israel violated mitchell, and oslo II (as well)
yes sure, everyone criticising Israel is a fundamentalist...

"Well make up your mind then. Either the Israelis have to work with Arafat because that's what nice countries do with each other's elected leaders, or, Israel has to deal with Arafat because he is an unopposed strongman and there is no other who has CNN on speed dial. In either case you've said elsewhere here that there is little if not nothing that Arafat can do to stop the terrorism. So what good is it to deal with an ineffectual self proclaimed tyrant?"

Arafat is both the elected leader and the unopposed strongman (well, that is not completely correct, he is opposed... but only by hamas and Islamic Jihad, do you prefere to negociate with Sheik Yassin maybe, is this why Israel didn't attack sheik Yassin?)
Arafat, nor any other leader of palestine, can do anything about terrorism as long as israel is determined to continue its occupation and war against the Palestinians.
Only if israel is prepared to negociate about the entire deal, the BIG MAC, than we will see if Arafat is able to controll his people or not. Anyway, someone with less autority than Arafat will surely controll less. The only one with more autority than Arafat is barghouti, but israel detained him (untill the next negociations of course).
And if sharon is determined to install some kind of puppet-dictator to controll palestine in his place his puppet will live as long as those palestinians who are payed (a lot) by the Mossad to commit treason against their own people...

[Mediocrates]

No one is so naive to deal with a duplicitous bastard honestly and openly - you don't support that do you? But I suppose you would advocate a negotiation that involves nothing, no ocmmittments on Arafat's part 'because he's powerless and deserves a chance' - all the while paying for bombing while the hands of the IDF are stayed, for how long? A year, 3 years, 20?

[Mediocrates]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/04/22/niger.israel.ap/index.html

Niger renewed relations 6 years ago after a 23 year break. Well they've broken again.

[Vic]

Originally posted by Mediocrates
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/04/22/niger.israel.ap/index.html

Niger renewed relations 6 years ago after a 23 year break. Well they've broken again.

I wouldn't bother about Niger.

[takeo]

"No one is so naive to deal with a duplicitous bastard honestly and openly - you don't support that do you? But I suppose you would advocate a negotiation that involves nothing, no ocmmittments on Arafat's part 'because he's powerless and deserves a chance' - all the while paying for bombing while the hands of the IDF are stayed, for how long? A year, 3 years, 20?"

No, of course not. If arafat can't controll terrorists in his own independant state in the first months than Israel has the right to act. But first the occupation has to end, and that involves negociation with Arafat, like it or not. The palestinians deserve a chance, a real chance, at an independant state.

[Mediocrates]

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah


You sir, are a fool, perhaps it plays well in the cafes with the college girls but you are a fool none the less. Obsessed with your opinion of your own logic. Just number your responses:

1) it's all the jews fault
2) it's all the israelis fault
3) arafat is good
4) arafat is kind
5) there is no violence
6) there are no suicide bombers
7) what's a few dead jews
8) my history is sacred
9) your history is crap

and then you can just type a single number and save us all the trouble of reading your trolls.

[takeo]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL pauvre type...
take your injection and take a deep breath, ask your nurse as well to give you some pills against high blood pressure...
I know it is not easy to respond to logical replies to your propaganda talk (always the same as well by the way... Arafat is a terrorist, palestinians are terrorists, Sharon is good, the un is anti-semitic, France is anti-semitic, Europe is anti-semitic, israel never killed civilians, israel has the right to occupy WB and Gaza, Arabs want to destroy israel, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. ) but try anyway if you can.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
"No one is so naive to deal with a duplicitous bastard honestly and openly - you don't support that do you? But I suppose you would advocate a negotiation that involves nothing, no ocmmittments on Arafat's part 'because he's powerless and deserves a chance' - all the while paying for bombing while the hands of the IDF are stayed, for how long? A year, 3 years, 20?"

No, of course not. If arafat can't controll terrorists in his own independant state in the first months than Israel has the right to act. But first the occupation has to end, and that involves negociation with Arafat, like it or not. The palestinians deserve a chance, a real chance, at an independant state.


Is this going to be chance # 1000 or #1001 I've lost count?

[takeo]

NO, chance nr. 1

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
NO, chance nr. 1



You Arabs have a strange way of counting.


Incidentally there are some Jews in the National Front Party in France. The overall ideological concept of the party seems to have gone well with the voters. I just think Le Pen is too stained but one of his best ideas is to get out of the EU.

That hopefully would bring about the collapse of the EU and smaller countries wouldn?t be called to Brussels to answer questions of Racism because they want to restrict immigration of Muslims.

Racism these days has become a shield for colored people to cry foul at the slightest provocation. The word is grossly overused and that really is a shame because individuals that are genuine victims of racism aren?t taken seriously.

Hey you just slashed my tires you creep.

Don?t call me that you Racist.

[Mediocrates]

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Views%5El9&enZone=Views&enVersion=0&


An article on the International Red Cross's long standing rejection of Magen David Adom:

"Meanwhile, the American Red Cross has quietly acquiesced in this blatant prejudicial policy for years.

-an excerpt-

That was until Healy became president of the national body. Recognizing that nothing short of a divorce would shake the international body's resolve to maintain its policy, Healy fought a long and bitter campaign to compel the roof body to own up to its discriminatory practices. The American Red Cross withheld its annual dues from the international body for two years while Healy embarked on personal diplomacy that stirred up a hornet's nest of accusations of wrongdoing in the international center in Geneva.

This crusade reached its denouement in mid-October when the Board of Governors of the ARC, apparently embarrassed by Healy's commitment to principle during a time of dire emergency, forced her resignation. So ended a noble quest to have a profound and historic wrong redressed."


I was inspired by Mrs. Healy's speech at AIPAC broadcast on CSpan this week.

[takeo]

"Racism these days has become a shield for colored people to cry foul at the slightest provocation. The word is grossly overused and that really is a shame because individuals that are genuine victims of racism aren?t taken seriously"

let's change: "Anti-semitism these days has become a shield for pro-israeli people to cry foul at the slightest provocation. The word is grossly overused and that really is a shame because individuals that are genuine victims of anti-semitism aren?t taken seriously"

About Le Pen: the fact that you agree with the FN-programm, considered fascist and racist by most people in France and even on this board, says something about you...

if you would change the words "Arab" by "Jew" than you would be accused of anti-semitism.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
"Racism these days has become a shield for colored people to cry foul at the slightest provocation. The word is grossly overused and that really is a shame because individuals that are genuine victims of racism aren?t taken seriously"

let's change: "Anti-semitism these days has become a shield for pro-israeli people to cry foul at the slightest provocation. The word is grossly overused and that really is a shame because individuals that are genuine victims of anti-semitism aren?t taken seriously"

About Le Pen: the fact that you agree with the FN-programm, considered fascist and racist by most people in France and even on this board, says something about you...

if you would change the words "Arab" by "Jew" than you would be accused of anti-semitism.



Retire Pen and elect a new leader of the National Front or appoint the second in command who happens to be a Jew if my information is correct.
I forget his name but everyone in that organization are branded as anti Semites.

I don?t give a damn what you call me I say close the floodgates from the Muslim world into France. The gates are already being shut in Denmark and that?s the will of the people.

Europe has become the dumping ground for Islamic Fundamentalism and that has to stop! The rise in anti Semitism is largely due to Muslims and believe me that if they ever gained power in Europe there would be wholesale slaughter of Jews.

As a mater of fact I provided a link to a news site where some Omar Muhammad wants to KILL JEWS but to be honest he wants to do it legally. There are 1000?s of others that have the same philosophy but they are quite willing to stick to burning synagogues and shooting after school busses for now. Harmless little pranks by good old Muslims just having a bit of fun to kill the boredom.

Asia has already fallen under the influence of Islam and there?s not much the west can do to stop its rise. Sure it might have killed a few Taliban but the birth rate has already replaced them 10 fold. China is supporting Iran and Iraq last time I heard so I think if Bush wants to take out Iran and its developing Nuclear weapons program all I can say is good luck.

The thing is that once you have an EU passport it guarantees you free travel within the countries. As I understand you can pick and chose where you want to live.

No I fully agree that immigration to France should be curbed and those without citizenship must be returned. There?s already evidence that a large percentage of Muslims simply aren?t able to integrate to the point where they respect their Jewish neighbors. At this point I think if the growth rate of per capita crime incidents continue, it will surpass Nazi Germany in the years prior to the holocaust.

After that close the doors to immigration.

To be honest it?s not only Jews that are targeted by Muslims throughout Europe but per capita they are subjected to the largest number of incidents.

Don?t bother branding me a racist just because I?m a realist. What I fear is Islamic Fundamentalism and its permeation into the EU and the inherent dangers it brings to Jews and Gentiles. First it?ll be the Jews next comes the Gentiles and Asians until the whole of the EU is gigantic Islamic State.

99 out of 100 Senators ( Helm was sick) have signed a petition and sent it to the EU advising them to crack down on anti Semitism and the anti Semitic rhetoric.

Of course to you I?m flaky and so is everyone else that dare suggest that Arabs aren?t individuals that respect Jews and respect their places of worship.

The bottom line is that Chirac doesn?t seem to be able to deal with the current problem or is unwilling. The NF promises to deal with the problem of violence and crime stemming from individuals within the Muslim community 2 weeks after being elected.

NOTICE THAT I DIDN?T SAY ALL MUSLIMS SO DON?T BOTHER CALLING ME A RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THIS IS ONLY AN OPINION AND ISN?T ETCHED IN STONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[takeo]

OK, I won't call you a racist again, on the condition that you don't call people who only target the israeli government and not ALL Jews anti-semites...

besides that you seem to create a paranoia against muslim people as some fascist parties in Europe are doing. i'm not saying that there aren't problems with Muslims (by the way, there are so many different Muslim people that it's rather stupid to talk about the crime rate under "muslim" people... we have never ever any trouble with Indonesian, Bosnian, Iranian, Turkish, or bangladeshi people for example, they are even calmer than average French people, i agree Arabs cause more trouble...) but these problems are really exaggerated by you, as well as by Le Pen and his friends (his followers are not less racist than Le Pen, I can asure you). I live in an Arab neighbourhood and don't live in constant fear, maybe there will be a little more burglery than in an average quarter, and a little bit more people shouting in the night, but it's way of the situations you see in many American cities and way off the apocalytic situation you just described.
Also some orthodox Jewish people live here and they have, untill now, never been bothered(at one time i heard shouting "**** Sharon" to such a man, isn't really an anti-semitic remark.
Arabs (or Muslim in general) are still less than 5% of the European population, and the thirth generation even, in many cases, don't go to the Mosque anymore or even speak Arab. (at least in France, i gues the cultural gap in northern countries is bigger).
Arabs in America are less than Jews, and in Asia the biggest countries india, Russia nor china are Muslim countries and are not exactly good friends with fundamentalist muslims. (ps: they have relations with iran, a country by the way that cooperated fully in the war on terror against the Taliban, after visiting Iran i am convined it is not a funamentalist country )
I think the problem is not fundamentalism, because most Arabs nor muslim are fundamentalist (they are conservative in many cases and religious, but few share the crazy ideas of osama and co., and afghans were happy to be liberated from the Taliban)
I guess your obsession derives from the fact that the whole muslim world supports the Palestinian in their liberation struggle, and that many Muslim countries are not prepared to get laid by the US...
In fact the real problem, according to me, is US and Israeli arrogance to think that they rule the world and everyone who is not with them, is against them and evil, in the words of bush and reagan. Before everyone not completely capitulating for American rule was communist, now everyone not completely agreeing with us policy is described as terrorist. The real problem are not the Muslims, only 25% of the world-population, but us-unilateralism after the cold war to think that they are the new world-policeman, and everyone not agreeing to us policy is suspect, even Europe(but as wel in latin America, asia, Middle East, africa, ...) . States not complying to US-policy have to face harsh repression (cuba, Yougoslavia, Iran, or Venezuela ...). democracy, human rights or not that doesn't make any difference, as we have seen at the dual standard for "friends" as Israel, Kouweit, Saoudi Arabia, etc. or "ennemies".
Luckily China can't be teached a lesson and remains the greatest challenge for American world-dominance, Europe doesn't have a consistant and assured policy to make enough difference, while Russia has faded since a few years. You are right to be worried about china (why do you think North-Korea hasn't been bombed yet?) but for other reasons than you indicated.
fundamentalism is just a noisy problem for ALL countries in the world, especially muslim countries who are the biggest victim of it, but in fact it is not going to change anything in the world structures and it isn't the most important factor in the Israeli-palestinian conflict, which depends completely upon the power of the US and the will and ability of other countries to challenge it.

[L@mplighterM]

All Bold Quotes from takeo:

OK, I won't call you a racist again, on the condition that you don't call people who only target the israeli government and not ALL Jews anti-semites... OK, I won't call you a racist again, on the condition that you don't call people who only target the israeli government and not ALL Jews anti-semites...

Here?s the deal I don?t think that you?re a Jew so I guess you?ll have to go on calling me a racist.

besides that you seem to create a paranoia against muslim people as some fascist parties in Europe are doing.



Look we all know who?s responsible for the increase of anti Semitism in Europe. Anyone that acknowledges that becomes a fascist or racist in your eyes. Yesterday a letter was dispatched to the EU requesting that they crack down on anti Semitism and the rhetoric. 99 out of 100 signed it (Helm was sick) are you accusing the US Senate off trying to create paranoia?

I?d settle for the return of each and every Muslim (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. generation) to the point of origin if they engage in Islamic Fundamentalist activity.

Haste la Vista !!!!!!!!!!!

That?s my bottom line!!!!

If they want to integrate live peacefully and amend the Koran?s evil teachings I?m in favor of ?Live and Live?.


think the problem is not fundamentalism, because most Arabs nor muslim are fundamentalist (they are conservative in many cases and religious, but few share the crazy ideas of osama and co., and afghans were happy to be liberated from the Taliban)
I guess your obsession derives from the fact that the whole muslim world supports the Palestinian in their liberation struggle, and that many Muslim countries are not prepared to get laid by the US...

Sure the Afghans were happy to be liberated by the US but I?m not certain just exactly what was liberated yet. I do believe that the majority of Islam is anti Semitic and anti US because there?s plenty of evidence of that fact. They are a major threat to stability in the world at the present and will with all certainty remain so in the future. Therefore I think the enemy of humanity should be contained within their own border.

Luckily China can't be teached a lesson and remains the greatest challenge for American world-dominance, Europe doesn't have a consistant and assured policy to make enough difference, while Russia has faded since a few years. You are right to be worried about china (why do you think North-Korea hasn't been bombed yet?) but for other reasons than you indicated.

China yes that is a potential pain in the ass. You see China positive light yet I see it in the negative. America isn?t looking for world domination just stability and peace throughout the Globe.

[cekirge]

"fundamentalism is just a noisy problem for ALL countries in the world, especially muslim countries who are the biggest victim of it, but in fact it is not going to change anything in the world structures and it isn't the most important factor in the Israeli-palestinian conflict, which depends completely upon the power of the US and the will and ability of other countries to challenge it."


I agree with some points in your posting, except the one above. Fundamentalism, in the form of Islamic or other, is going to continue to be a constant challenge to the Middle Eastern states. It starts breeding in seemingly innocent "Quorann" schools, or Imam Schools. The purpose is to use the loopholes in the laws to create a population base for their future activities. That is why Saudis have been more than willing to establish "madrasas" in Pakistan and several central Asian countries. It is true that US has been expanding its influence under the guise of "globalisation", but it is also a fact that some Moslem states have been pursuing a similar goal with their generous funding. In my opinion, there is a real "clash of cultures" going on in most Moslem countries.

Conservative Islamism is one step before fundamentalism. Fueled by some world events (like Palestinian conflict), it is not unlikely that there might be many willing to take this last step. Conservatism (in practice) does not allow tolerance. The ones I have known have always pursued to limit the freedom of the others. So by definition, the way I see it, it is not possible that Conservatism (that is in full power-not a single political party) and Democracy (or tolerance for others) would survive within the same system.

Unfortunately, fundamentalist Islam, as it is, has to be kept under constant check by democratic (or militaristic) forces. Islamic clergy has not matured enough to encourage individual freedom and independent thinking among the populace. It still pursues to keep the people within its grip, and play to people's sensitivities (as in Palestinian case, or "Hageb" in Turkey) to gain control.

Last comment I want to make is about Iran. It is my belief that the people of Iran is more open minded and possibly more democratic than most other Middle Eastern people. The problem is that the same Islamic clegy I have mentioned above has got the full control. It would be naive to think of Iran's opposition to Taliban as their own "war on terrorism". They never got along with Taliban (several border clashes, kidnapping of Iranians by Taliban, etc.). Also apparently their definition of terror does not include Hesbollah, and PKK as terrorist groups.

I agree that US and Israel (also Turkey, of course) are no angels. Each country is pursuing its own goal which sometimes clash with another country's goals. One thing I have observed with Arabs (here in US) is that they always consider themselves blameless, and always put the blame on others. If they are not happy with the US influence spreading, perhaps they should offer their people something more attractive, other than blind conservatism.

P.S. I am a Turkish student studying in US. The observations I mentioned above come from my experiences in Turkey, and conversations with my Arab friends.

[L@mplighterM]

Last comment I want to make is about Iran. It is my belief that the people of Iran is more open minded and possibly more democratic than most other Middle Eastern people. The problem is that the same Islamic clegy I have mentioned above has got the full control. It would be naive to think of Iran's opposition to Taliban as their own "war on terrorism". They never got along with Taliban (several border clashes, kidnapping of Iranians by Taliban, etc.). Also apparently their definition of terror does not include Hesbollah, and PKK as terrorist groups.


You mean open-minded like sending 50 Tons of weapons to the Palestinians???

Again if you see Iran as being democratic it sure the hell doesn?t say much about Turkey where you come from.
It seems s like most of you guys like to see women in baggy potato sacks stuffed with old rags. What?s the matter don?t you like to look at women????? Same with takeo he indicated disgust when it came to the Russian Beauty Contest contestants.

Why do you want to come to western countries?

[cekirge]

L@mplighterM, I wrote my opinion of Iranian people that I have personally met in US and Turkey, not about the ruling party or state policies. My reason for being in US is purely educational, not monetary. If you are talking about Turkish immigrants in Europe, it is obviously to make a living. For the same reason Italians, Irish, German, Polish, Jews, etc came to US. Only difference is that the American culture and policies (being more friendly to foreigners) have made it easier for them to be accepted in to the overall US population. The Turkish immigrants from France that I met in the military has adopted much better to their host country than the immigrants in Germany, the difference coming from the higher tolerance of French toward the foreigners.

[A-Palestinian]

Takeo,

L@mpLighter is indeed a Facist. Dont let his incessant rants that he is not a Facist get the better of you. Facts speak for themselves. His following statement is proof that he really is:

"I?d settle for the return of each and every Muslim (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. generation) to the point of origin if they engage in Islamic Fundamentalist activity. "

I will not bother disecting the above paragraph to show the underlying Facist principles at its root, but with a little logic, you can probably do so yourself.

I suggest that you do not sanction L@mpLighter's absurdity, and anti-Freedom, as well as Facist outlook. It's a waste of time. Know that he is a Facist, and deal with him as such, (if at all).

[L@mplighterM]

Let me get this straight The National Front Party is a Fascist Party.

Being a Islamic Fundamentalist that supports terrorism and the destruction of a maternity hospital in lets say the West Bank is perfectly normal if it's occupied with Jewish mothers and babies.

Burning down a few synagogues in France or taking a few shots at a school bus is to be rewarded or commended.

You can call me whatever you want racist or fascist I don't really care. I've seen first and second generation Islamic Fundamentalists applauding the death and destruction of Jews at the hands of religious madmen.

You can call me whatever you want racist or fascist I don't really care. I've seen first and second generation Islamic Fundamentalists applauding the death and destruction at the Word Trade Center and Pentagon.

You can call me whatever you want racist or fascist I don't really care. I hope The National Front Party sends you packing back home because when you engage in your evil ways by destroying people's lives and property you should forfeit your right to live in a civilized society.

In any event you didn't get my point regarding the generations and I'm not going to bother explaining it.

I hope that all the innocent victims of terrorism in Israel and 9/11 wont have died in vain and I know there's been an awakening in Europe and North America to the dangers of Islamic Fundamentalism. That's why Denmark is changing its immigration policies an its also partly the reason that the NFP in France gained popularity. So call anyone or anything that opposes Fundamentalism fascist, racist or anti Semitic.

The bottom line is that people have the right to live without fear. Fear that their children and loved ones will not destroyed by ball shavers thinking that they will ascend into heaven by killing babies.

If you're going to bring up the collateral damage on your side don't bother because that' your glorious leaders problem his hands are stained with the blood of his people.

So in conclusion I say that you can call me whatever you want racist or fascist I don't really care. I hope The National Front Party sends you packing.

[takeo]

on the contrary to mr. lomplighter I dislike personal attacks, so I will not go further on the question if he is fascist or not... I can only say that some of his ideas and heros are certainly fascist.
But it is important to reply to this kind of retorics because, if only repeated enough and remaining unchallenged, other people will be influenced by it.
Lomplighter, you also didn't seem to read the other messages before replying with your usual tact... cekirge (i knew he was Turkish!) said that the most Iranian people are openminded but the regime is not, which is basically true.
About the regime, i can tell you that within the regime there are radical, indeed fundamentalist, elements who are hated by most people and insist on separate busses, etc, there are as well people in the regime who are Muslim of course and belonging to the clergy, but seems rather converged to a moderate version of Islam that wants to give people personal freedom and western pleasures while at the same time respecting cultural values and the basic religious values, a tendency supported by the president and by the whole population. By the way minorities, as well as religious minorities are protected and have rights in Iran , MORE SO THAN IN TURKEY or any other Arab country or Israel (maybe that's why in Iran, on the contrary to any country in the middle east including Turkey and Israel, minorities don't use violence and terrorism to achieve some basic rights). Both of course support the Palestinians, both resist us-dominance as under the shah-regime and both hate the fire-brand lunatic fundamentalists of al-quaida and the taliban(as well as the population), but you are right that the situation in Iran is more complicated, it certainly isn't part of the "axis of evil" and any visit to Iran will convince even lomplighter of this fact....
You are right that immigrants in france are better accepted and integrated than in Germany, the political situation is deceptive as german people are in fact a lot more racist in their mentality than French, that's not patriotism, that's just a fact, as well against Jews as against Arabs. tesekur ederim The only reason why we don't see a strong fascist party in Germany is because of the historic legacy...
You are also right about the danger of conservatism (as well in the US, some people find it frightening to see ashcroft in such a high position...) and the strong position of the clergy (in both islamic states, the US and Israel). I agree that conservatism is the ennemy of freedom, and even a single party can do a lot of harm. You are as well right that the clergy in Islamic states has to be kept under controll by the state, as happening in Turkey or in Central Asia for example. however, as with the FN in France, it is important to know the roots of extremism and why it has a certain appeal to a part of the population. In Palestine it's the poverty and oppression, in Turkey it's the military regime and corruption, in Arab countries it's a combination of poverty, a feeling of being colonised by the west, and as well corruption, in Israel the constant fear and war, that attracks people to extremism. In France and the US it's less easy to find the roots of extremism, i would say the uneasy acceptance of multi-culturalism and modern times, as well as a rise in crime, poverty of some classes and corruption. In all those countries the reluctanse to accept modern times and socio-economic problems are good bases for extremism.
after visiting a lot of Islamic countries however and having a lot of Islamic friends, I think that fundamentalism will never appeal to the majority of the population. They may vote for islamic parties as a protest-vote, but once those are in power they make themselves hated very quickly, as happened in Afghanistan, in Iran, for example. In Turkey for example i think it would be impossible to change to country into an islamic society, as well in the countries that have been influenced by socialism, it would provoke revolt. The same is true for the extremist governments in Europe, as in Austria. Once people saw the real face of extremism they quickly turned away from it, the same is happening in Italy.
The problem in the US, Turkey and Israel (and some muslim countries as pakistan or egypt) is that ultra-conservatism and fascism are tolerated whitin a coalition of more moderate versions of conservatism, what gives it the opportunity to reach more people and more support, it's like a slow poison.
I agree that people like to refere to an external treath rather than solving there own problems, particularly in arab states, but as well in the US and israel (and Turkey). The problem is that the regimes in many Arab states are so much dominated by the US that they don't really have a free choice, this of course enhances extremism. My personal opinion is that the US has allowed and even engouraged a certain fundamentalism (as in Saoudi Arabia, some of their fundamentalist friends, the taliban, got out of controll...) because these crazy people prevent the social, economic and most of all political liberation of the Arab world (the same happens in latin america, where the US always supported dictatorships or semi-dictatorships)

ps: lomplighter, i like to see women, another reason why i hate fundamentalism, hehe... only it'z a little bit sad to have to take russian prostitutes to enhance your touristic appeal... but anyway i wouldn't mind...

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by cekirge
L@mplighterM, I wrote my opinion of Iranian people that I have personally met in US and Turkey, not about the ruling party or state policies. My reason for being in US is purely educational, not monetary. If you are talking about Turkish immigrants in Europe, it is obviously to make a living. For the same reason Italians, Irish, German, Polish, Jews, etc came to US. Only difference is that the American culture and policies (being more friendly to foreigners) have made it easier for them to be accepted in to the overall US population. The Turkish immigrants from France that I met in the military has adopted much better to their host country than the immigrants in Germany, the difference coming from the higher tolerance of French toward the foreigners.

Any society that has strict dressing codes for women is the enemy of the west. Any government that supports terrorism should be destroyed.

[takeo]

lomplighter:

"Look we all know who?s responsible for the increase of anti Semitism in Europe. Anyone that acknowledges that becomes a fascist or racist in your eyes. Yesterday a letter was dispatched to the EU requesting that they crack down on anti Semitism and the rhetoric. 99 out of 100 signed it (Helm was sick) are you accusing the US Senate off trying to create paranoia? "

I wouldn't say that's paranoia, but rather political games in the context of the middle eastern war and the hypocritical and difficult role of the US in this war ...
a few synagogues destroyed by Arab hooligans and some other incidents are very regrettable, and a reason for concern in europe, yet such an action seems exaggerated, there are 1000's of people slaughtered all over the world for political or etnical reasons yet the US-congress very rarely takes the opportunity to show the same interest for this events.

"I?d settle for the return of each and every Muslim (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. generation) to the point of origin if they engage in Islamic Fundamentalist activity. "

What do you call fundamentalist, going to the Mosque? I would only agree if you mean by that engaging in terrorist activities. In any other sence it would be a discrimination that can as well be used against other religious minorities (jews, for example, who are not integrated enough for some fascist people if they still practise their religion too strictly...)


"Sure the Afghans were happy to be liberated by the US but I?m not certain just exactly what was liberated yet. I do believe that the majority of Islam is anti Semitic and anti US because there?s plenty of evidence of that fact. They are a major threat to stability in the world at the present and will with all certainty remain so in the future. Therefore I think the enemy of humanity should be contained within their own border. "

LOL, ennemy of humanity... (first you said ennemy of the US and Israel)...
it almost sounds like Hitler who considered the Jews to be the ennemy of the western society and should be contained...
The most bloodiest and dangerous conflicts in the world didn't occure in Islamic parts of the world, and most Islamic countries are puppets of the West, most Islamic people also like to watch to "titanic" and like to have a normal family-life as in any other part of the world. The biggest problem is that the US is constantly harrassing Arab countries as Iraq, not vice-versa, and can't keep its hands off middle Eastern oil. The US is a much bigger treath to muslim countries than vice-versa.


"China yes that is a potential pain in the ass. You see China positive light yet I see it in the negative. America isn?t looking for world domination just stability and peace throughout the Globe."

"stability and peace throughout the Globe" of course, pax americana... that's what all the would-be world-conquerers said, Kublai Kahn, Alexander the Great as well as Caesar and Napoléon...
China is the real problem for America in its quest for world-domination because China is the only country that can't be treatened by military force or economic measures (would hurt the us-economy more than the Chinese). All those little Arab and Muslim-countries are easy to controll or contain, China is not.
Under the edge of friendly diplomatic words their is real frustration in the Bush-administration that China can't be treated according to the "good or evil"-theory. China is as well becoming a modern nation that is growing so fast that it's economy in 20 years will be stronger than the US-economy, and that's probably the reason why the us is so much concerned about relations between China and Middle-eastern oil-rich countries.

[takeo]

according to you the FN is only opposed to fundamentalism, you should know better... did you know that in the municipalities they gained power they started to remove books in libraries that are not "in compliance to French culture"... of both Arab AND Jewish autors...(for example Grossman).
To you almost all muslims are fundamentalists and thus animals because of the acts of a small minority of Muslim-extremists.
Because some israeli and us-citizens died it is allowed to kill whole cities and expell Arabs from Europe. You condamn 25% of the world-population according to these acts.
if this would be the mentality of other peoples than the US and Western Europe should suffer a lot harder as punishment for criminal imperialist policy during the last centuries, and the Vietnamese should have the right to bomb New York to the stone age...

[takeo]

and if you want to complain about that blame your "glorious leaders problem his hands are stained with the blood of his people"

[thrud]

Originally posted by takeo
[...] and the Vietnamese should have the right to bomb New York to the stone age... [/B]

The Vietnamese did have the right to bomb any target in the US. I don't know why they didn't (probably prudence: they would have allienated their supporters in the US -- and justified an expansion of the war -- had they decided to). I would dare say that the Palestinians have the right to drop a few bombs in self defence against tactical targets, but women and children do not comprise a tactical target.

The pentagon was a tactical target on 9/11, but the WTC was not. Police stations in the PA are tactical targets and as is any psuedo government complex that is used to plan and implement attacks against another country (PA education ministry), but buses are not tactical, discos are not tactical (except to someone looking to hook up or something), markets are not tactical, and synogogues are not tactical (nor are mosques: very shameful what happened to a few of them).

Clearing crowded streets and making them defendable is tactical if the civilians are evacuated before their homes get knocked down (this is sometimes not practical, especially if some nut is inside shooting at the bulldozer operator).

Military decisions must be made against military targets, but terrorists and murderers do not make this distinction and go about killing whomever they will. This is disgusting and cowardly. If the PA were to conduct a this operation as a war and avoid civilian targets they would look less like animals, but they do not and willfully aim their walking bombs at the defenceless.

[L@mplighterM]

What do you call fundamentalist, going to the Mosque? I would only agree if you mean by that engaging in terrorist activities. In any other sence it would be a discrimination that can as well be used against other religious minorities (jews, for example, who are not integrated enough for some fascist people if they still practise their religion too strictly...)

I would define the term Fundamentalists in relationship to Muslims if as someone that adheres to the teachings of Mohammed in the strictest sense. If the Koran was revised eliminating certain passages that call for the death of Jews and anyone that wont convert to Islam etc. then I wouldn?t have a problem with the book.

LOL, ennemy of humanity... (first you said ennemy of the US and Israel)...
it almost sounds like Hitler who considered the Jews to be the ennemy of the western society and should be contained...
The most bloodiest and dangerous conflicts in the world didn't occure in Islamic parts of the world, and most Islamic countries are puppets of the West, most Islamic people also like to watch to "titanic" and like to have a normal family-life as in any other part of the world. The biggest problem is that the US is constantly harrassing Arab countries as Iraq, not vice-versa, and can't keep its hands off middle Eastern oil. The US is a much bigger treath to muslim countries than vice-versa.

Well I know that they also like to rape little children in Europe and the Muftis blame on 11-15 year old girls for dressing provocatively. Further Mosques throughout Europe are used to call for the destruction of Israel and the US and for violence against Jews in the EU.

China is the real problem for America in its quest for world-domination because China is the only country that can't be treatened by military force or economic measures (would hurt the us-economy more than the Chinese). All those little Arab and Muslim-countries are easy to controll or contain, China is not.

Trouble is that I don?t see the US in pursuit of world domination.

Finally have you been trying to tell everyone on this forum that you can GURANTEE peace in the Middle East if Israel returns to the 1948 borders?

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
according to you the FN is only opposed to fundamentalism, you should know better... did you know that in the municipalities they gained power they started to remove books in libraries that are not "in compliance to French culture"... of both Arab AND Jewish autors...(for example Grossman).
To you almost all muslims are fundamentalists and thus animals because of the acts of a small minority of Muslim-extremists.
Because some israeli and us-citizens died it is allowed to kill whole cities and expell Arabs from Europe. You condamn 25% of the world-population according to these acts.
if this would be the mentality of other peoples than the US and Western Europe should suffer a lot harder as punishment for criminal imperialist policy during the last centuries, and the Vietnamese should have the right to bomb New York to the stone age...



I only target the Fundamentalists and their supporters in my posts.

[christian]

"China yes that is a potential pain in the ass. You see China positive light yet I see it in the negative. America isn?t looking for world domination just stability and peace throughout the Globe."

"stability and peace throughout the Globe" of course, pax americana... that's what all the would-be world-conquerers said, Kublai Kahn, Alexander the Great as well as Caesar and Napoléon...
China is the real problem for America in its quest for world-domination because China is the only country that can't be treatened by military force or economic measures (would hurt the us-economy more than the Chinese). All those little Arab and Muslim-countries are easy to controll or contain, China is not.
Under the edge of friendly diplomatic words their is real frustration in the Bush-administration that China can't be treated according to the "good or evil"-theory. China is as well becoming a modern nation that is growing so fast that it's economy in 20 years will be stronger than the US-economy, and that's probably
the reason why the us is so much concerned about relations between China and Middle-eastern oil-rich countries. [/B][/QUOTE]

Takeo,
many thanks :) :D
Bravo!You speaks the truth.

I also get so much insight of the entire situation, instead of blindfold by the American media in Hong Kong. You really changes my perceptions. I must admit I am not very objective of the whole conflicts(pals vs israel).

Takeo,
Let say,

This is US perception of the world.

US = Western World

It doesn't mean

Western World= europe, secular countries like Singapore,US

To cowboys,
Just a little informatin of your "cowboys" Endeavor,
What is exactly peace mission?

The plane crash last year travel to the coast of China. It is not even recognized by UN. The UN is not mentioning any "peace" mission. You guys always speak of UN laws and international laws. When the privallenges are not in your favor(US), you call the UN piece of junk. The UN didn't recognize your endeavor of "peace" mission. Pleae find me a link. I want to prove I am wrong.

Excuse me, you kill one of our pilots in our own soil. If China have a "peace" mission in Hawaii. You guys will call it "spy" mission. If we kill one of your pilot, your CNN media will broadcast as martyer by evil chinese empire.

Moreover, mr. Bush only says " I am sorry". Read the dictionary in dioplomatics terms. It is without damage offers.

This is what American means peace mission.

US = peace mission.

Unlike,

UN peace mission = peace mission

It is like a "spy " mission. Yeah. Some of you may yell" I am a threat to western world. I hate American."

Most of us admires the mentality of American values, such as openess, law, democracy, freedom of speech, strong country,
We want to be as good as America. That is why so much foreign students are studying in US.

Excuse me, What is a threat to western world?
Is it anything that is threatening US interests, a "western world."

Your european friends are friendly towards us. They also condamn us at the same time. They are much a ally to US than china. Nevertheless, they let us prove ourselves. They also gives us opportunities. They let us pick up the human rights, law, other requirements to the success of secular world. It takes time for a big country to implement this.

Unlike the American cowboy ways, it is matter of "good and evil" theory. Wake up! cowboys! "Good and Evil" theory is only happens in Hollywood. The world is full of colors.

Remember guys, I didn't vote for Bush. It is you guys who vote for him. We admire Clinton very much. He supports multi-lateralism.

Unilateralism = world dominations

So, dont you make stories about China threats to western world. You are talking to yourself. It doesn't include Europe, secular world in southeast asia, etcc. Or else, we can't do business with Europe or other secular country. If we are a threat to the west.

Sure, you can post up more links about "evil" china. I can post you many links about only "evil" American miltary actions in vietnam. Which your "righteousness" drops more bombs than the world war II. Which your "rigtheous" Richard Nixon wants to use Nuclear bomb.

Oh ! I forgot. Your "righteousness" angers a lot of pacific secular christian society. This includes south korea, singapore, philphines.etc They aren't a threat to you. Isn't? How come they show so much anger at you?

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thrud
[B]

The Vietnamese did have the right to bomb any target in the US. I don't know why they didn't (probably prudence: they would have allienated their supporters in the US -- and justified an expansion of the war -- had they decided to). I would dare say that the Palestinians have the right to drop a few bombs in self defence against tactical targets, but women and children do comprise a tactical target.

You are so funny. :D Your "righteous" politician(Richard Nixon) wants to use nuclear bombs. You are trying to convince me, that Vietnam has the right to target in US.

I want to know how your logic works.

[thrud]

Originally posted by christian
You are so funny. :D Your "righteous" politician(Richard Nixon) wants to use nuclear bombs. You are trying to convince me, that Vietnam has the right to target in US.

I want to know how your logic works.

First, Nixon is dead.

Second, Vietnam had the right (past tense: they do not have the right now -- we are not at war).

When a contry wages a legitimate war, comabatants are targets. Non-comabatants should be avoided (this has always been a problem with bombs -- they are difficult to focus).

Murder(suicide)-bombs are easy to focus and aim. The bearer only need show up at the scouted location, wait for a crowd of women and children, and detonate. This is immoral and everyone should condemn it, but there are those who celebrate it, worship it, pay for it, and plan for the next attack. These are the enemy where ever they come from.

I live in Asia (South Korea) , love it here, and love China. I have been doing business with Chinese comapanies for years. My children study Cantonese and we have been to Hong Kong and Beijing on vacation. China is a great nation that the West has always misunderstood and has taken advantage of in the past.

I know China is pushing for a more dominate world stance (and deserves it), but she suffers from Islamic radicals and terrorists as does Israel. Islamic murder-bombers are not unknown in China and this internal strife is the real threat to China. Strong central governments have kept the multitude of factions under control for two and a half thousand years, but the central government is weakening and is being threatened by religious threats from within (Falung-Gong, Tibetian Budhism, Militant Christians, and Islamic Fundamentalism).

Asian peace is threated by Chinese internal chaos. The terrorists in China are as wrong as they are in Israel. South Korea will not hesitate to push North Korea harder if they know China will not be a threat. Tiawon would be happy to attack, if China is thrown into internal chaos as it was in the late 40s.

Non-conbatants need to avoided at all costs.

The US is not free of guilt, but that does not make civilian deaths anywhere legitimate.

[christian]

"First, Nixon is dead.

Second, Vietnam had the right (past tense: they do not have the right now -- we are not at war)."

You miss my point. They want to use nucler weapon to end the war. The vietaneamese fully knows that if they target any US cities. The country will been in stone ages. You are saying if we go back to 70's. Vietnam has the right to target US city.
I don't think so.

"When a contry wages a legitimate war, comabatants are targets. Non-comabatants should be avoided (this has always been a problem with bombs -- they are difficult to focus).

Murder(suicide)-bombs are easy to focus and aim. The bearer only need show up at the scouted location, wait for a crowd of women and children, and detonate. This is immoral and everyone should condemn it, but there are those who celebrate it, worship it, pay for it, and plan for the next attack. These are the enemy where ever they come from."

I agree. I agree with Israel. I understand your fear. You guys go through the exodus in the 48. In this case, you guys are in judges(bible) age. Where you are surrounded by cannaties. I understand your fear. Takeo approach will not work. This is the dilemma. The Pal sees Israel as occupationer. The Israel sees as the legimate owner of the lost land. The Pal wants to kick all of you out. The israel(right wing) don't want pal to have a chance to get stablize in the future. Stablization means peace and prosperity. If you guys give them peace. When the pal regroups himself. Israel will be in a bigger trouble. It is a tough question. Which you guys are willing to bet on.(oslo agreement)
"I live in Asia (South Korea) , love it here, and love China. I have been doing business with Chinese comapanies for years. My children study Cantonese and we have been to Hong Kong and Beijing on vacation. China is a great nation that the West has always misunderstood and has taken advantage of in the past.

"I know China is pushing for a more dominate world stance (and deserves it), but she suffers from Islamic radicals and terrorists as does Israel. Islamic murder-bombers are not unknown in China and this internal strife is the real threat to China. Strong central governments have kept the multitude of factions under control for two and a half thousand years, but the central government is weakening and is being threatened by religious threats from within (Falung-Gong, Tibetian Budhism, Militant Christians, and Islamic Fundamentalism)."

Please don't say dominate world stance. It sounds like world domination. Isolationalism is always our policy for the last 300 years. Even now, many prefer isolationalism than WTO. Our job lost is higher before te entry. Our strategic movement is to counter the unilateralism in US. We never do anything like that during the time of Mr.sexy(clinton).
"Asian peace is threated by Chinese internal chaos. The terrorists in China are as wrong as they are in Israel. South Korea will not hesitate to push North Korea harder if they know China will not be a threat. Tiawon would be happy to attack, if China is thrown into internal chaos as it was in the late 40s."

agree.

"Non-conbatants need to avoide at all costs.

The US is not free of guilt, but that does not make civilian deaths anywhere legitimate." [/B][/QUOTE]

agree. However, your mighty cowboy(unilateralism) is killing other people indirectly. Mr. cowboy(Bush) is indirectly stale the talks between south and north korea. We are friends both korea. We also respect south korea decisions. This year, we have so much trade with south korea. That means we don't want to see unstability in the north eastern coastal region. It is against our interests. Please don't watch CNN.

If you don't believe me. You can find information from CNN. During the Mr. cowboy(Bush) visit. The south korean has a big demonstration against America. Perhaps, you didn't see anything about burning the american flag or effigy of Mr. cowboy(Bush).
Other protester said "You are indirectly killing us, just like in vietnam"
Note: they(korean) are not islam. They(korean) are not anti-american. They(korean) just don't want Unilateralism. They(korea) like mr. sexy(clinton).

All the secular countries like mr. sexy(clinton). We don't like cowboy president.

So, Please. Don't say we are anti-american. We like mr. sexy(clinton) very much. We miss his love. :p :D

[takeo]

Hey christian, I hate to spoil your party, but "Mr. sexy"(???) was not always so lovely, in fact he was the same defender of the imperialist US-policy, but only a lot smarter than Bush (he knew that the States had to make friends to accomplish certain goals).
I think the islamic treath in Sinkiang is not really comparable with the Palestinian struggle. Sinkiang has been conitually a legal part of China since ancient times and has its own autonomy, there are also more than one people living but 100's of peoples.
The separatist movement in more comparable with Tibet than with palestine, which isn't a separatist movement (because WB and Gaza don't belong to Israel). I think China faces most of all economical challenges to keep its mixed economy, politically there doesn't seem to be much problems, except of course in the outer regions.
I agree that killing civilians is despisable but as you know already i don't believe that Arafat or the PA are responsible for it. What is the takeo approach???
if it is changing the borders to pre-1967 than i'm all for it. I can't garantee nothing, nor can Sharon garantee that by bombing the Palestinians and destroying the cities and PA he will stop the terrorism and war! if one option doesn't work than it's most common to try another option, isn't it? By the way an option that would have the advantage of international and palestinian approval, what makes peace always easier than declaring unilateral peace...

So now mufti's are defending the rapers of 11- to 15-year old girls, ... don't you think such anti-islamic retorics is a bit old-fationed and childish? Sure if we would search we could find a rabbi who was convicted for pedophilia, etc. is that a reason to condamn Yudaism? Not all mufti's call for destruction of Israel and the US, maybe some extremists, as some extremist rabbi's call for the destruction of the Palestinian people...
We had the discussion about the Qoran once... and i have my reasons to doubt that you ever read it completely :rolleyes: (nor did i). You know as well as i do that such a book can not be partially accepted, nor can the Bible or the Torah, both of which contain violent and intolerant parts. So in real you would punish Muslims for believing in their faith... it is no different from the middle-ages where jews were banned from espain because they didn't renounce the jewish faith...

[christian]

Originally posted by takeo

]Hey christian, I hate to spoil your party, but "Mr. sexy"(???) was not always so lovely, in fact he was the same defender of the imperialist US-policy, but only a lot smarter than Bush (he knew that the States had to make friends to accomplish certain goals).
You are right. However, his romantic letter (US and China relationships) captures our oriental girl(china) imagination. He is our man, standing up for us(during the chinese president visit). Sometimes, he rapes our sister miss lewinsky(yugoslavia). After he rapes lewinsky, miss lewinsky fall in love with him(join the nato). He then offers us his wedding ring(WTO entry). He offers a love song called From Taiwan with love(three no's agreement).

However, Mr. Cowboy(bush) talks tough. Mr. Cowboy(bush) destroy our love poem called From Taiwan with love(unrecognize the three no's) He doesn't want to call us his lover.( "strategic competitor" ) :D

This is a just humorus joke. No offence.

It is just too serious in this forum. :D

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
Hey christian, I hate to spoil your party, but "Mr. sexy"(???) was not always so lovely, in fact he was the same defender of the imperialist US-policy, but only a lot smarter than Bush (he knew that the States had to make friends to accomplish certain goals).
I think the islamic treath in Sinkiang is not really comparable with the Palestinian struggle. Sinkiang has been conitually a legal part of China since ancient times and has its own autonomy, there are also more than one people living but 100's of peoples.
The separatist movement in more comparable with Tibet than with palestine, which isn't a separatist movement (because WB and Gaza don't belong to Israel). I think China faces most of all economical challenges to keep its mixed economy, politically there doesn't seem to be much problems, except of course in the outer regions.
I agree that killing civilians is despisable but as you know already i don't believe that Arafat or the PA are responsible for it. What is the takeo approach???
if it is changing the borders to pre-1967 than i'm all for it. I can't garantee nothing, nor can Sharon garantee that by bombing the Palestinians and destroying the cities and PA he will stop the terrorism and war! if one option doesn't work than it's most common to try another option, isn't it? By the way an option that would have the advantage of international and palestinian approval, what makes peace always easier than declaring unilateral peace...

So now mufti's are defending the rapers of 11- to 15-year old girls, ... don't you think such anti-islamic retorics is a bit old-fationed and childish? Sure if we would search we could find a rabbi who was convicted for pedophilia, etc. is that a reason to condamn Yudaism? Not all mufti's call for destruction of Israel and the US, maybe some extremists, as some extremist rabbi's call for the destruction of the Palestinian people...
We had the discussion about the Qoran once... and i have my reasons to doubt that you ever read it completely :rolleyes: (nor did i). You know as well as i do that such a book can not be partially accepted, nor can the Bible or the Torah, both of which contain violent and intolerant parts. So in real you would punish Muslims for believing in their faith... it is no different from the middle-ages where jews were banned from espain because they didn't renounce the jewish faith... It may be old fashioned rhetoric but when Mufti?s call for the genocide of a people. Is it acceptable to oppose that?
It may be old fashioned rhetoric when you point out that guests shouldn?t be defending horrendous crimes. Is it acceptable to agree with that?

These people justify their own actions as do their followers by what is written in the Koran. This isn?t isolated incidents by a few individuals but rather a general attitude of Islam. I said general because I believe it?s more than 50% + 1 that think it?s all right for Palestinians to kill defenseless Jews.

You can?t base your whole opinion on Judaism based on the actions of individual acts. Calling for the destruction of all the Palestinian people is extreme although I can understand why a person would do that.

Several years ago I did in fact read the Koran, Torah and the Bible although I admit that the interpretation is a bit more complicated than just reading the book. They have to be studied in detail and even then they can be subject to debate.

The past can?t be altered but it would seem like the future can be shaped. Islamic Fundamentalists are trying to do just that through terror within their own countries.
I see Arafat as an Islamic Fundamentalist equal to the bin Laden?s of the world.
Murderers spurred on by religion fanaticism and the intolerance of others beliefs.

Is it innocent rhetoric when they call for the destruction of human life? Are they different than the Muftis defending crimes against children? I think not! Should their hearts be ripped from their bodies and be fed to pigs? I think so!

[cekirge]

"The problem in the US, Turkey and Israel (and some muslim countries as pakistan or egypt) is that ultra-conservatism and fascism are tolerated whitin a coalition of more moderate versions of conservatism, what gives it the opportunity to reach more people and more support, it's like a slow poison."

I had to comment on this. It is unfortunately true that our government still carries the bag of ultra-conservatism and fascism under the protecting umbrella of factions within the ruling parties.
One point I have to add is why they have gained strength in our politics. 12 years ago, nationalists had gotten only 7% of the votes, compared with 17% in the last elections. Their votes have grown with the continuing conflict with the Kurdish separatists. We can see the same trend in US and Israel. That is why Bush has 82% approval rate (in reaction to 9/11), and why in Israel right-wing (including nationalists) has the highest approval rates. Public has a tendency to vote for parties that would supposedly protect them against threats, rather than vote for the ones that would do something about the root causes of the problems (short-term vs. long-term solution).

Minority rights have always been the weakest link in Turkish politics. The hardline (and somewhat stupid) policies of past governments have been ignoring the identity of Kurds, and suppressing even innocent demands with power. Good news is public opinion, albeit slowly, has been shifting towards a more democratic approach. Ironically army has demanded democratic action from the governments. Army in Turkey is a puzzle to me, almost like a political party pulling strings from behind. Sometimes democratic, sometimes undemocratic (If you read the Economist that is their ongoing thema on Turkey).

I totally agree with you on past US sins, worst one being encouraging "Green Belt" under Soviet's soft belly. It still continues somewhat supporting dictators whenever they see fit (last seen with coup against Chaves, and supporting Saudis). In case of Saudis, they have been trying to inject their version of Islam, Wahhabism, against more moderate versions of Islam with no objection from US.

European policies have been more consistent with their stated ideals. Still I find them somewhat passive and subjective in their dealings. Examples of this can be seen in their hesitance when dealing with Bosnia situation, and their unfair definition of terrorism (if terrorists do not harm us, it's OK to accomodate them).

Israel's situation is certainly not one that I would wish for any nation. They got a whole population, with virtually no supporters, against them. Palestinians also got a legitimate claim on WB and GS. They are in a war that in no way can be fought in a "nice and democratic" way, as Europeans demand.And the worst problem being, several Palestinian factions to be dealt with, instead of one. Unfortunately I also do not belive Israel's problem would vanish even if they gave into Palestinian demands. I wish the best for both nations, and hope for a less bloody confrontation.

[L@mplighterM]

Bold quote from cerkirge:

Israel's situation is certainly not one that I would wish for any nation. They got a whole population, with virtually no supporters, against them. Palestinians also got a legitimate claim on WB and GS. They are in a war that in no way can be fought in a "nice and democratic" way, as Europeans demand.And the worst problem being, several Palestinian factions to be dealt with, instead of one. Unfortunately I also do not belive Israel's problem would vanish even if they gave into Palestinian demands. I wish the best for both nations, and hope for a less bloody confrontation.

Perhaps governments do not openly support Israel but many polls that I?ve seen indicate support from the general population. At this point I wouldn?t be surprised that fear is a factor in governments shying away from openly supporting Israel.

Call Le Pen a fascist, racist or anti Semitic but I still see the man as having a lot of guts standing up to Muslim Fundamentalist elements. I would say there?s plenty of evidence that terrorists or assassins succeed in altering the course of history from time to time and these people don?t mind forfeiting their lives.

[Northlander]

Well I know that they also like to rape little children in Europe and the Muftis blame on 11-15 year old girls for dressing provocatively. Further Mosques throughout Europe are used to call for the destruction of Israel and the US and for violence against Jews in the EU.

Lets talk about catholic priests raping children all over USA as well.

I think its obvious that whenever the pal-isr conflict is discussed here we almost instantly get into the discussion of islamic fundamentalists taking over the world and anti-semitism in europe.
Maybe we should have different threads for the two topics.
Now the discussion has spread to asia as well which probably is as good cause USA´s influence in the ME conflicts can not be ignored and asia concerns USA.

When it comes to europe I think the discussion is exaggerated. A few arab hooligans as Takeo rightly puts it destroys synagogs etc. I for one live in europe and I still dont belive there is this raising anti-semitic movement here.
The biggest threat for jews in europe is probably Israel ignoring human rights.

The power in the world today is not in the hands of muslims. How short memory have you all? I say USA,China,Russia and some others, like france britain and India. This whole discussion that only islam is a great threat to world peace is ridicilous.
Personally I still think that USA is the biggest problem as usual.
Arrogant politics as usual. Does ANYBODY here think the hit on the chinese embassy in Belgrade was a MISS? Of all the embassies in belgrade they hit Chinas, by accident? Yeah right.
Could somebody leash that country we would see alot less fundamentalism from some people. Muslims and non-muslims.
Personally Im tired of taking the blame and also become a potential target by actions instigated by americans. As tired as peaceful arabs are of becomeing connected with suicide bombers in ME probably. As Takeo says its impossible to see muslims as a single group. As it is impossible to see chistians or whites as a group. It sound here like all arab immigrants in europe are anti-semits and fundametalists and that they will take over europe from within. Get real. Most arabs in europe blends in and live among us as anyone else. Single incidents cannot be blamed on all. People doing that starts new problems as is the case in Denmark, Italy and Austria.

Read yesterday that Saddam hussein is planning to build the "Saddam mosque" its planned to be the biggest in the world and will have 8 minerets in the shapes of scudmissiles. This was reported in the swedish press yesterday and not for the first time. The great arabfriendly islamist press according to some on this forum. Well, they came to the conclusion basically that he is absolutely insane which I belive too. Had it not been for real it would have been hard to belive whats happening there. I want to emphasise that my views on the iraqi dictator are not different from you pro-israelis but I STILL regardless think Israel should grant UN access to Jenin. Stop the arguments about your hostile neighbours and understand that we are not pro-islamistic and dont want to destroy israel. As it is now I begin to belive that israel wants to become isolated. How hard can it be to let the world see what happened in Jenin? Cant belive that the UN let them pospone it to after sunday because of Sabbath!!! On one thing I can agree on you israelis. Sometimes the UN really shows signs of being stupid and incompetent.

As Jenin looks from TV I must say that it looks more like ground zero in NY than a living area. However IDF search for terrorists it must be very effective. Im sure after this no terrorists can be alive and Im sure you will be safe from terrorist attacks for eternity. Now you just have to do the same thing in every palestinian area and you will finally be safe. Starting with Hebron this night I saw.

[Mediocrates]

The area of destruction in Jenin you refer to is ~100 meters sq. the size of the entire camp is ~500 meters sq. Which if I remember my geometry correctly means that the area of 'total lunar landscape devastation' is about 4% of the total camp area.

The total Jenin camp is about 50 acres (for the Americans to compare) and houses according to Ramallahonline.com, about 15,000 people.

[Northlander]

15.000 terrorists you mean?

plz do the maths again but this time for ground zero in NY in meters sq compared to total newyork area in meters sq. You can also take the casualties of the attack in NY in civilians and divide it by the total of NY population. If any of this is interesting. The problem yet to be solved is that we dont know the number of dead civilians in Jenin for sure. I dont trust the palestinians numbers and I dont trust the israelis. How are we going to solve this once and for all? Well I think you know....

[Mediocrates]

No I mean 15,000 people. Of them several hundred were directly involved in carrying out terrorist attacks including 20+ successful bombers who killed ~200+ Israeli civilians. There were an additional ~60 terrorists from Jenin who were captured or killed outside the green line before being able to shoot or bomb civilians.

Current estimates from AI (amnesty international) and the IDF as well as independant sources like Debka indicate that there are about 50 bodies so far in the rubble and as many as 80 Palestinians in the camp may have died during the fighting. Of them the IDF states that 60+ were actively involved in shooting back or booby trapping IDF troops.

I mention the small size (Ramallahonline.com's own words) and tiny population of the 'refugee camp' because it is important to alert American audiences at least what the true scale of this is. Americans, brought up on a steady diet of Rwandan, Bangledesh level disasters have the mental picture of a 'refugee camp' as millions of people, miles and miles of squalid tents, typhoid, cholera , mass graves and huddled children dehydrating to death in the street. This is simply not the case in Jenin which is little more than a very bad urban area like the South Bronx in NYC. There was very little other than the fact of the battle to draw Western media's attention that it even existed, before the battle.

[Northlander]

yeah I get the idea of clarifying the difference between refugecamps and refugecamps for average americans. But I dont think that necessarely is the case with others. Mainly because americans are not always that aware of what happens outside n.america and secondly because the supporters the palestinians have from non-arabs are aware of the more permanent camps in palestine. Since the world has not yet done anything to help them, of course they live as more permanent refugees.
Still they would probably be better of with tents since its easier to get up again whenever the IDF decides to bulldoze it.

Still dont pay any attention to the numbers until UN get full access to the areas. AND all reporters for that matter.

[christian]

The power in the world today is not in the hands of muslims. How short memory have you all? I say USA,China,Russia and some others, like france britain and India. This whole discussion that only islam is a great threat to world peace is ridicilous.
Personally I still think that USA is the biggest problem as usual.
Arrogant politics as usual. Does ANYBODY here think the hit on the chinese embassy in Belgrade was a MISS? Of all the embassies in belgrade they hit Chinas, by accident? Yeah right.

Northlander,
:D :D

Many thanks.
IF I speak out. People think I am a chinese lunatic who is brainwashed by communist china propangada. Who is threatening the "western world".

Western world = "US".

It doesn't include Europe.

These are reasons why they hit the embassy,

1)They(US) want to show that they are the "boss" of europe and nato. Which the Europe doesn't agree with them(US).

2) We have been friends with Yugoslavia for long time. So far, they(US) can't prove that we are next "evil" empire. That threaten the peace and security in Europe or close to the border of Europe.("Good and Evil " theory that they can't prove.)
They have a hard time define western world. "Western world" means "US". It doesn't mean europe and secular countries like singapore. They try to demonize us as a threat to western world.
They are still pushing further by their Unilateralism.


3) We are exchange the technology with Yugoslavia. They (US) are p!ss off. We teaches the serb for using very primaitive radar. This is why their 1 billion dollar stealth was hit. (You can buy these radar in customer store. Believe it or not. )

4) They don't dare to chanllenge us directly. They still need us in so many issues. They still need us to reach some area of the world. It is proven, that they still need us. Pakistan is a good example. That is why they hit the embassy by "mistake".



Their lame reason of mistake

1) "Our maps are two years old" william cohen.

Give me a break. A satellite mapping and GPS system in US, have a two year old map. Even a third world country like INDIA, has a GPS and mapping system in the aircraft. It is not in 1940's anymore. The aircrafts now is faster than in 1940's. If you don't have GPS or mapping system. Your target will miss.

2) "I am sorry to the chinese people" Clinton

Sorry in dioplomatic terms means "regretable without action". It doesn't cover damages offer.

3) Right. "Mistake." A stealth aircraft from 1000 feets, shoot two patriotic missle. Two missle hits the target within the area of the embassy. It takes a very accurate angle to hit within 100 feets. Moreover, you are traveling 1000km/h.

If the first missle is mistake. Can you explain to me the second "mistake"?

I was on top of the mountain once, coordinating coordination between two points of the mountain. It is extremely difficult to coordinate between the area. I am just imagine if I run. Can I coordinate the point between?

[L@mplighterM]

Bold quotes from Northlander:

Lets talk about catholic priests raping children all over USA as well.

I think its obvious that whenever the pal-isr conflict is discussed here we almost instantly get into the discussion of islamic fundamentalists taking over the world and anti-semitism in europe.
Maybe we should have different threads for the two topics.
Now the discussion has spread to asia as well which probably is as good cause USA´s influence in the ME conflicts can not be ignored and asia concerns USA.

When it comes to europe I think the discussion is exaggerated. A few arab hooligans as Takeo rightly puts it destroys synagogs etc. I for one live in europe and I still dont belive there is this raising anti-semitic movement here.
The biggest threat for jews in europe is probably Israel ignoring human rights.




Fine let?s talk about Catholic Priests in the US. Give me a link to a couple of articles where priests openly condone that sort of behavior. I?ve already provided links to your Muftis excusing that kind of abhorrent behavior. I suppose you're not intelligent enough to make the distinction or you chose to remain blind to the truth.

They get their excuses straight from the pages of the Koran. If there?s any mosques destroyed in the EU it?s because of the religious indifferences that exists within your sects.

Israel has a high regard for Human Rights and also has a high regard for moral values.

Arrogant politics as usual. Does ANYBODY here think the hit on the chinese embassy in Belgrade was a MISS? Of all the embassies in belgrade they hit Chinas, by accident? Yeah right.

That was due to bad CIA intelligence and was regrettable.

As Jenin looks from TV I must say that it looks more like ground zero in NY than a living area. However IDF search for terrorists it must be very effective. Im sure after this no terrorists can be alive and Im sure you will be safe from terrorist attacks for eternity. Now you just have to do the same thing in every palestinian area and you will finally be safe. Starting with Hebron this night I saw.

What utter nonsense those mud huts can be cleaned up and rebuilt in a couple of weeks. Further what business is it of the West if they want to blow up their own buildings? Link's to URL's where the Palestinians admit destroying their own homes have already been posted.

[christian]

Arrogant politics as usual. Does ANYBODY here think the hit on the chinese embassy in Belgrade was a MISS? Of all the embassies in belgrade they hit Chinas, by accident? Yeah right.

That was due to bad CIA intelligence and was regrettable.

They have the best technologies in the world. What do you mean bad intelligence? :eek:

[takeo]

again about mufti's defending th rape of 14-year-old girls, i would like to see the link... but anyway it can be true, but it doesn't represent Islam, but just a small minority of extremists/lunatics that you can find in almost every religion. But i know as welli sraeli rabbi's who defend the genocide of the Palestinians as a people, and i am still surprised that you said you can understand such statements... it shows that real fascism is becoming increasingly popular in extremist zionist circles...

"What utter nonsense those mud huts can be cleaned up and rebuilt in a couple of weeks. Further what business is it of the West if they want to blow up their own buildings? Link's to URL's where the Palestinians admit destroying their own homes have already been posted."

sure, the pals have destroyed all of the centre of jenin... those bulldozers were there for the picture...
About jenin, if it is really true what Israel says that there are no massacres and only terrorists have been killed, why is it constantly postponing the un-commission and now demanding that israel can choose its own eye-witnesses???

I share the opinion of northlander that not fundamentalism but the US is the biggest treath to world peace and even to the israeli-palestinian conflict. If the us wasn't supporting with weapons and protecting israel against sanctions israel would have agreed a long time ago to stop the occupation, in the 70's already.

to cekirge: i agree that violence and war and extremism on the other side makes fascism more strong however it is true for both sides, why have the Kurds began their armed struggle? because the military regime didn't care nothing about them AND because there was no peacefull democratic way the achive their goals in the Turkey of the 80's (as well as in turjey of 2002...) ...
about the palestinians that's exactly the same question, why did they start their armed struggle? Because they had no peacefull, democratic alternative and because Israel didn't care nothing about their rights. And why did the extreme right-wing palestinians as hamas gained too much strenght? because of the harsh policies on the other side and the extreme situation.
I think the army in Turkey has played a bad roll in politics overall (as anywhere in the world) thanks to the turkish army Turkey today isn't a democracy as Greece and a lot poorer, whereas 30 years ago both countries weren't much different.
yes the US is to blame for creating a "green belt" in Central Asia, as well as for the Taliban problem. By supporting the Taliban and saoudi wahabism they hoped to diminish Russian and Iranian influence in the region(and were very usefull in afghanistan in the 80's) but those extremists tuned against their masters .

[NewsGuy]

This discussion is continued in Part 2 (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=583).