Why do we have to end this?

[maco]

Hi everyone

I am new here. I am wondering why when America was attacked in New York, they were allowed to start their war on terrorism. Why when we are attacked in the same ways, we are not allowed to continue our war on terrorism? The whole world hates us. Prime Minister Sharon has now talked to US president Bush announcing our troops will begin pulling very soon.

See it's been 5 days without any suicide bombers coming here and if this all ends, I am worried that the bombers will start up again. Last Saturday night, MY sister, myself and our boyfriends were out walking after dinner when all of a sudden the building next to us exploded. Well we ended up with some cuts and glass everywhere and in our eyes. Since then, everynight I wake up in the middle of the night and I am so sick really because of all the worrying of this. Supposedly it was the bombing earlier in the day though that really touched US President Bush. Ok so what does he do then when the next victim happend to be a 2 month old baby? Will he still insist we do nothing? Some of these people need to come here and live and learn what it is like to be afraid to do the simple things we used to be able to do. It's not fun when I can't even see some friends because I might get shot along the way.

Most of us simply just want to go back to being able to live. We don't care if the palestines have their land back, take it just go away.

Kim 18
Tel Aviv

[raven]

KEEP GOING. Dont end it. Whats good for the American Goose is good for the Israeli Gandar. And dont worry about the "special relationship" with the US. No matter what you do, the US will find some kind of an excuse to downgrade the status. In fact it already has, under the radar. A few months ago they floated a trail balloon that Israel IS and IS NOT the special allie of the US. So its decided!!!!already.

DO WHATEVER!!!! Go after those murderers. Grap up the EVIDENCE you find. You just might find that more countries than you think have been working actively against you. (wanna bet? Im right) Its up to you and all of us to back you. TAKE CARE...G-d be with you right now and all of us later. We are one.

Whoever thinks this is too too much...than too too bad.

[ibrodsky]

I agree with Raven.

While I am disappointed with President Bush's call for Israel to withdraw, as it sends a confused message, it seems clear that this is (so far) just diplomatic talk. There is no real pressure on Israel to stop.

Yes, keep going: there have not been any suicide attacks in the last week, have there? Clearly, when dealing with the PA terrorists, brute force is the best medicine.

[cerulean]

It seems much or most of the US population has forgotten that the Islamic terrorism going on in Israel draws from the same funding sources and the same general set of organizations that did the 9/11 attacks. Al-Qaida terrorists in Afghanistan have moved on to Lebanon, the West Bank, etc.

It seemed US support for Israel rose after 9/11, because there was some understanding of the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism. However, maybe Americans have forgotten this link already.

[maco]

I tried replying to these messages and then got some error and my reply was lost. I will try again.

I have heard this morning now that some Army heads are saying that we won't withdraw till we have done everything needed to be done is. I hope that is what happens. See there have been no more bombings since Monday last week and that was where the man blew himself up at the checkpoint. How can people say that is not a good thing? I also have no doubt about so many other countries that we have no idea about being against us, I think the whole world is, even probabaly half of America is. Arafat needs to be exiled somewhere where he can only harm insects.

Powell will just be a waste of time. That can be only obvious.

Kim

[Ezra]

cerulean,

Don't judge the Americans through the acts of their government. I know that we have elected it, and I guess we know how much we were mistaken. I admit that I voted for the republican this time, but I swear I will NEVER do it again because of their shameful position toward Israel.

Believe me, this is how most of the American feel toward Israel. We already tasted the drops of terrorism and we know how painful it is. I and all sincere American support Israel 100% against her war against terrorism. And whatever our government says, believe me they will pay for it in the next elections.

But also to be fair, remember that the US government has to show some flexibility in its policy toward the Arabs so that it can strike Iraq which will also benefits Israel.

[maco]

Originally posted by Ezra
cerulean,

Don't judge the Americans through the acts of their government. I know that we have elected it, and I guess we know how much we were mistaken. I admit that I voted for the republican this time, but I swear I will NEVER do it again because of their shameful position toward Israel.

Believe me, this is how most of the American feel toward Israel. We already tasted the drops of terrorism and we know how painful it is. I and all sincere American support Israel 100% against her war against terrorism. And whatever our government says, believe me they will pay for it in the next elections.

But also to be fair, remember that the US government has to show some flexibility in its policy toward the Arabs so that it can strike Iraq which will also benefits Israel.

Yes but at the same time, if the US goes after Iraq, Iraq will go after my country. The US has given Israel all sorts of Missile defense systems in preperation of this because it will happen, not in the next few months but I think by at least the year end.

All of this has to do with what the US wants when all is said.

Kim

[raven]

I think we all "get it". There is a time for alarm. There is a time to realize that much as we would like to be above getting very upset, when it is time to face reality, we must. We cant make the mistakes we have made in the past and hope the forces against us will "get it out of their system".

This is the time!! As much as we can do, we need to do. Sorry.


Enough is enough...What part of NEVER AGAIN does the world NOT understand?

Kim: Hang on...You do what you have to do, what any soverign country would do. Whatever happens later- happens later. At least we will BE there. Unfortunately, it seems that America is LOOKING for an excuse to paint Israel as not the true friend and therefore justified in downgrading the realtionship. Its been decided already. (Not the People of the US but the Governement) Heard it two months ago.

Ezra: You and I and most of America VOTED and most of the people that WON in Congress, this year, last year, ten years ago, twenty years ago--- are Pro Israel. THEY ARE SILENT. We have to ask why. All America ever had to do was say NO...and mean it. They can still do it. We will see. If they dont, America will send a message to the ARAB WORLD and the New UNITED STATES OF EUROPE, they America is NOT to be feared. You know what that will eventually lead to. We warned, As Americans, that this would happen. No one listened and you had 9/11 and no one will listen now. Im sorry for MY COUNTRY, America that they will not listen.

ibrodsky: thanks.

[cerulean]

The Church of the Nativity is being shot at by Israeli soldiers. I consider this a perfectly legitimate response to fighting against 200+ Palestinian terrorists who have taken sanctuary there. From the article, though:

Father David Jaeger, spokesman for custodians of Catholic sites in the Holy Land, who is currently in Rome, told Reuters: "This is an act of indescribable barbarity. It is a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation...."

It seems to me such indignation should be directed at the guerrillas who are holed up in the church. I do agree it would be a shame to lose such an historic site, first built in 326 CE, and then rebuilt two centuries later. I hope someone will tell the terrorists to leave the site for architectural reasons.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20020408/ts_nm/mideast_assault_dc_5

[Flame]

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/

Raven you can tell me if this is just part of Joan Peters book or if its most of it.

Anyone who wants to see how the trouble started please look at the chapters at this site... the author is not a Jewish woman by the way.


Unrelated to the link above.

I wonder if mohamad when the Jewish priests told him that he was not their prophet, and had he not told his friends and family to kill Jews for "humilating" him... if the hate of Jews and desire to kill them might not have been a staple of Islam.... and everything not been a humilation. Mohamad gave the first fatwa and the rest is bloody history.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by cerulean
Father David Jaeger, spokesman for custodians of Catholic sites in the Holy Land, who is currently in Rome, told Reuters: "This is an act of indescribable barbarity. It is a violation of every law of humanity and civilisation...."
Gee... I thought for a moment that he was talking about the allegations against the Catholic priests these days.

:rolleyes:

I agree with you, cerulean, that it is amazing how the Church doesn't say a thing about a group of 200 armed Muslim Palestinain terorrists bursting into the Church of the Nativity and holding more than 100 priests hostage. That apparently was a "holy" act. But extricating those trrorists, now that's real barbarism.

[Flame]

Good one NG.

[Ezra]

Why did these Muslim terrorists have to hide in the church although they have tens of mosques around the area?!!!


I'm really pissed off. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[cerulean]

Originally posted by Ezra
Why did these Muslim terrorists have to hide in the church although they have tens of mosques around the area?!!!


I'm really pissed off. :mad: :mad: :mad:

That's an excellent point about why the terrorists did not use a mosque.

Of course mosques are frequently used throughout Arab conflicts for storing weapons. Then they are supposed to be off-limits on the grounds of being mosques.

[raven]

To tell the truth, it was my position to butt out of the Catholic Priest issue here, but if they are gettin into OUR BUSINESS by supporting the other side, then I think it is our right to get into THEIR BUSINESS. This does eventually affect all Citizens of the US as children that are molested CAN go on to molest others, outside of their own religion. Not all people that are molested go on to molest themselves. But a significant portion DO. They may target OUR children the next generation. So it IS my business, the more I think of it.

It is also a double standard to prosecute ministers and pastors and Rabbis etc. for child abuse and NOT prosecute Priests. This is a matter of American secular law.

[raven]

Hiding in the Chruch of the Nativity is a TACTIC. An ugly bigoted tactic meant to play the "Christian" Card. We all know why they headed for the Church.

Before this, Palistinians loved to position themselves near a Church in line ,hopefully, with expected Isralei bullets. This could have been condemned immediately by Nations and Religions. They didnt. They were complicit in this behavior. Were these nations and religions "lookin for" an incident? I think they were. Sorry. It is so easy. All they had to do is say NO...and Islam would have stopped it. They are cowards, dontcha know.

[L@mplighterM]

I?d blow the g-damned church up without hesitation or afterthought. Historically there?s no precedent for saving churches the allies leveled churches in Dresden and elsewhere.

Suppose the terrorists made their escape and were able to commit other atrocities what then? To me a piece of concrete isn?t worth one innocent human life.

[raven]

We cant do that...and they know it...thats why they are there. It will be quite interesting to hear if Catholic Priests there engage in either a cover up of what happened or joining in the Pals. propaganda lies. I hope that they dont inject themselves into the conflict. The Pals. WANT this to happen. The Christian Card..doncha know. They have been trying to use all the hidden and not so hidden antisemetism that they can. Arent they special people? Dont we want MORE of this type of thing in our world? Yeah right. More of this and we wont be here. The people of India are saying the same thing.

[NewsGuy]

Getting back to the topic of the thread, it now seems that Israel will pull out of the Palestinian towns of Qalqilia and Tul Karm due to US intervention to prevent Israel from completing its mission of destroying the Palestinian terror machine.

When it comes right down to it, Bush is not only disgracing the memory of all those 3000 Americans who were murdered by Arab terrorists, but is back-stabbing its ONLY ally in the Mideast.

I don't believe that Bush is representing the will of the people of the US, and I am deeply disappointed in the administration.

It's one thing to decide that we are too weak to fight terrorism after 9-11, but it is even more problematic to directly intervene to preserve a vicious terrorist regime like that of Arafat and the PA.

The only target of American strong-arming in the Mideast so far has not been Iran, has not been Syria, and not been Hizbullah, nor Hamas, nor Saudi Arabia who are all responsible for 9-11, but instead it has been Israel.

There is a BIG lesson that Israel must learn today:

While the US might be a good source of arms, Israel must become completely independent of the US. Because otherwise, Israel will be sold down the river for a bucketful of dirty Arab oil.

[Flame]

Lamp... Jews destroy the place where jesus was born????? A lot of the nutball Christians still accuse us of killing him as it is. The vatican would love nothing better and that would open up the gates of hell on us.

I don't know why Israel just doesn't use sleeping gas and get a hold of them that way. Anyhow... found this ...
about occupation.

According to an interview with the King of Morrocco he stated:::: Palestinians say Israel is trying to topple
President Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority and permanently reoccupy their cities in an operation in
which the Israeli army says it has killed 200 Palestinians.

RE occupy ?????!!!!!!!??????? Now that is an interesting statement.

As for the pals who got the death sentence for conspiring with Israel... good old Rush said, that's a nicespin for saying these people don't agree with the pal authority.

[raven]

The game is over. It seemed it was a fiction that the US would back Israel- the little teeny Democracy with Values the same as the other Democratic Western Countries. Well-- we always knew that, didnt we? The PEOPLE of America would not have it thus. They dont want a Pal. State. THey dont want this permanant Terrorist Area to be established. They really dont want a program to stimatize and eliminate Israel over a long period of time. But if WE dont resist, this is what will happen.

We have to be independent and I must say that wherever we live, we have to be ready for what comes. Sorry to have to say it but I am saying it.

Totally agree with you Newsguy.

Time for Israel to start cranking out their own airplanes and any kind of munitions that they can. I hope they kept planning and are ready to GO.

Incidently, can you imagine the US allowing this to happen to GB? Course not. We even backed GB in that rediculous land grab for the Malvinos. Stupid useless barron Island with sheep and a couple of people. People DIED over that. And we backed it.

[L@mplighterM]

I understand where you are coming from Flame and I know what you mean.

But………………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦

According to my son there’s around 15 million Jews in the world today. Perhaps the Catholics would snap to attention if one of their precious artifacts were destroyed. It would set a precedent that there should be no sanctuary for terrorists from Catholics.

Here’s the situation as I see it.

Practically every nation in the world is demanding that Israel withdraw from the West Bank. Presumably that means leaving the suspected terrorists behind in the church. There’s no way that I would do that and a siege of several years isn’t an option. So if not now at some point before I was forced to withdraw the building would lie in ruins.

The Pope isn’t going to love Jews I posted the press release from the Vatican the other day. There are rumors that the next Pope is going to be African and I don’t believe (if Anan is an example) that he will be pro Israeli. What are they worried about Jesus for after all he’s in a better place according to Christian theology.

With the population of world Jewry at 15 million (if that figure stands) the Gates of Hell were opened a long time ago.
Under no circumstances should one terrorist be allowed free passage from that church.

I know construction started around 300 AD and that it’s a precious artifact but all innocent life should be held sacred and those that have taken it should be arrested.

[raven]

Lamp: Id love to blast those manipulative bas---ds to bits but you can just hear the analogies...with the Taliban and the precious loved Statues in Afganistan that they blew up and the JEEWSWSSSSS that leveled the sacred Church. We cant fall into that trap, much as they would like us to. They WANT us to ...so bad...

Incidently, sorry to say that the next Jews killed by suicide bombers will be on little Bushes head. Wonder what the spin on that will be after it happens?

[fair]

we know that ..
America is the master of Israel
America supply Israel with everything from breads to fighters and rockets
If America order Israel Must obay and execute

[L@mplighterM]

Well you might be right flame and raven there’s really no way to second-guess the situation.

What if the Muslims blew it up and blamed it on the Israelis? Would that be the end?

[Flame]

Lamp- that is a concern big time! But they do have the priests in there as hostages. I say get the sleeping gas, knock them out, chain em up, and throw them in a cell.... or maybe with ararat and his crew. Some european peack chic is trapped (or was) in there and says no working plumbing... filthy inside.

I'm hoping that their dome on the rock collapses soon... oh terrible me for wanting the destruction of a building.
Some of my favorite buildings are long gone to parking lots and mini malls. Old wonderful buildings. As it is, the muslims have control over all Jewish holy sites and the reason arafat kept saying no no no was because he wants ALL of Jerusalem... he wants control of THE WALL... so he can say when Jews can go and not go.

Jerusalem has been the sticking point in all of this.... (reparations, refugee returns aside). IF the pallys are holding out for Jerusalem, (as the entire arab world believes it is an islamic site) then peace is never never never to come. And no way in hell will Jews give the arabs control of the wall. Anyone with even half a brain understands the only reason they want all of Jerusalem is as a psycholical form of rape and denegration of Judaism.

[L@mplighterM]

I find it interesting that posters on this board refers to the priests and nuns as hostages.

If indeed they were hostages wouldn’t the Vatican City make a big deal out of their confinement (all I hear is about the barbaric acts committed by the Jews)? I’m not hearing a peep from the Vatican regarding the confinement of the priests and nuns; therefore I conclude that they are willing participants.

When does a church cease to be a church? Have the priests asked the terrorists to leave? Has his holiness asked Arafat to phone the Palestinians to leave? Has Bush asked the terrorists to leave? Has Blair asked the terrorists to leave?

What if the church was used as a vantage point for the terrorists? Does it become a legitimate target?

The church has been used/ is being used as a vantage point for the Palestinians and a matter of fact two border guards was shot. So they keep on sniping and picking off Jews. What if they were launching grenades or rockets from the church?

Two Jewish border guards were shot doing their job so I say level it.

I

[Flame]

Lamp... every American would demand to blow Israel to bits. As it was last month... the vatican would not come to Israel to deal with the mulims trying to build a mosque next to it... the vatican made Israel 100% responcible to make sure it didn't happen... the vatican believes that Jerusalem is theres and are foolish to think that by being buddies with the pal athoriity that they will get the cut of the pie they are aiming for.

[L@mplighterM]

You might be right Flame but I still think it’s the right thing to do. I better watch what I eat around here because the Americans haven’t killed me yet for suggesting it.

I better sleep with one eye open.

I don’t think there’s any doubt that the Catholics are Pro Arabs and they still blame the Jews for crucifying Jesus.

All right with great reluctance I’ll back down. Chalk one up for Flame.

[Flame]

Maybe you didn't know that the pope is very very chummy with the big wig pals. A few xmas's ago I happened to have on the tv and there he was making his xmas speech.... at that moment I have to say I was filled with disgust for that creatin. He had a pal at each side and his xmas message was for the Jews to make peace blah blah blah. My take on the situation is that if he is chummy enough with them... he will have his portion of Jerusalem, the vatican sees Jerusalem as theirs. islam sees Jerusalem as their's. Last month when all the hallabaloo went on about building the mosque next to that church... and how over the past year the pallys have driven most christians out of Bethlaham (beth & ham nothing hebrew about that I guess)... I was shouting to the tv image of the stinkin pope... see chump... told ya so.

The "world" woudn't hate us if a mosque got blown up, but try that particular church. And from what I understand, the vatican actually owns property in Jerusalem which Isreal pays rent on the Knesset buliding.

[L@mplighterM]

As I sit here and write the IDF is slowly leaving the West Bank. If I were Sharon I would make a speech to the world.

I would tell the world that Israel is withdrawing in good faith and its expectations are that there will be no further terrorist attacks. Tell the world that it was with great reluctance that Israel had to disrupt the Palestinians daily life. Tell the world that Israel sincerely hopes that it will never have to make incursions into the West Bank again. Something along that line and keep it up and whilst he is doing that work a lot harder in the PR department.

Since Bush and his schizophrenic foreign policy was the one that demanded the withdrawal he’s the one that should bear responsibility for the next victims. What will happen next is anyone’s guess.

I have discussed the situation with many people in real life and it always boils down to land. My neighbor is somewhat pro Palestinians and we were sparring back and forth in a friendly manner. The debate wasn’t going anywhere until I said all right do you want all our women to look through a slit of a blanket( I was looking through a button hole of my sweater) and he immediately said no.

I honestly believe that the average person doesn’t know that a Palestinian can be an Islamic Fundamentalist. What are people supposed to think when they see a staged picture of a woman fleeing with a little child in her arms with the caption ‘ Palestinian woman fleeing city’ ?

[Flame]

This Colin Powell quote is in reference to the Gulf War...

The US must use overwhelming force to destroy our enemies."

[L@mplighterM]

Hair would be falling in chunks from people’s heads right now if I had my way.

You might recall that Dan Quayle suggesting using small nuclear warheads in Iraq. And in Afghanistan everything was on the table.
Sharon has to start a PR campaign to soften the world for the next conflict.

When you’re the schoolyard bully you can do what you want. Never liked Powel and I never will.

[Flame]

I think you will find a lot of people who agree with that. An American being best friends with a saudi prince has to make you wonder who he is really looking after. I don't think its the American tax payers.

All of this is just getting me so angry. The lies, the distoritions, the slick so-well orchestrated propaganda. In my town... no one wants to even hear one word I want to say about how Isreal isn't the demon they are being led to believe. One gal said to me... but those innocent people. I was shocked... as if Israeli citizens aren't innocent victims. Lamp... I used to be fairly liberal until all this started. I just woke up one day and all the left wing politics actually made me feel sick to my stomach.

[L@mplighterM]

Well it all boils down to PR doesn’t it? The Israelis government has done/is doing a lousy job.

The average individual most likely hates Islamic Fundamentalists (that’s if they know what that means) on the other hand the average individual feels sorry for Palestinians (whether they are terrorists or not). Why?

Perhaps people don’t associate Palestinian terrorists with Islamic Fundamentalism. Then on the other hand perhaps they don’t see it as their problem.

[christian]

Hello guys!

I am a chinese, living in Hong Kong. I was born in Singapore.

Too bad, the world media is controlled by left wing liberal propangada.

What can i say!
There are no friends and no enemies in politics. There are only
national interest.

There are many muslim, migrating the places all over the world.
They are very polite for the first generation. The second generation cause some serious s***, like blowing up themselves. Then they start to implement laws, such as no one can worship other god other than Allah. At worse, the moderate muslim tag along with it. Don't count on the moderate will help you, if you are in deep trouble. The moderate in middle east is powerless.

Sure, the moderate muslim can quote you bunch of koran in their religion. However, they are not voicing up their concern on terroist act. They are not condemn the acts. They are not voicing about respect to the other religion. Which the world wants to hear.

The islam muslim in the west is very silent about burning synagoge. Their silence means I approve what the muslim are doing. However, they enjoy the freedom and democracy. Back home, they are just bunch of robot, controlled by their dictator.
When the muslim brother cheat on other race, it is fine. When the muslim brother cheat on other muslim, it is a great sin.
(This is their interpretation of koran in real life. Believe me or not)

In china, the xinjing terrorist is blowing up themselves. They want a islamic state in the northwestern part of china. Then they call the human right activitist, they say they want human right protection.

Israel ! May god bless you. may God curse those who curse you. May god bless those who bless you.

Many chinese, I talk to, they are pro-israel. The reason is they rather support israel, than the Islam fundamentalist take over.

[raven]

Christian: Thank you. Its important that the REALITY of what you are talking about gets out. You need to tell the story of how this particular group behaves in all of the World. We are not allowed to talk about this in the US. To actually SAY what is going on translates to anti Arab Bigotry. Even, when the world can see what is going on in India and we know is probably going on in China and Africa. Its INSANE, NOT to be able to warn our fellow citizens about what can happen with the NEXT Generation of Islamists in America and everywhere else.

You need to contact fellow Chineese that you know EVERYWHERE and get this info out. All of the people involved, Chineese, Jews, Indians Americans and Europeans with a BRAIN, need to form an effective coilition against this onslaught.

For some reason, this particular religion has enough people in charge, to NOT be able to live with other religions peacefully. It may not be the majority of these people, but a minority of a billion and a half intollereant people seems to be just about enough people to poison the atmosphere.

[L@mplighterM]

I think that people have put the 9/11 behind them. How soon they forget that the bombers worked, lived in US society and even had American girlfriends. No one suspected a thing until it was to late.

The concern about nuclear reactors, poisoning the food supply, smallpox and dirty bombs are rapidly fading from people’s minds.

As I write this all through the west Fundamentalist are scheming and planning, waiting and biding their time for their next evil quest.

If history tells us anything it’s that civilizations rise and fall. Never before (in recent history) has ours been so fragile because of the inter dependence that exist in the world today. Just months ago we were advised to stock up on the bare necessities in case there was an interruption to food deliveries.

As far as I’m concerned the terrorist in the West Bank and the ones that destroyed part of America are one and the same. There’s a chain of evidence that ties them all together no matter what name they bear.

Why demand a stop to Israel ferreting out suspected terrorists or terrorists?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
As far as I’m concerned the terrorist in the West Bank and the ones that destroyed part of America are one and the same. There’s a chain of evidence that ties them all together no matter what name they bear.

Why demand a stop to Israel ferreting out suspected terrorists or terrorists?

That's right.

bin Ladin's #3 man, who was just caught is a Palestinian:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=394

The one responsible for the Khobar tower bombing was also a Palestinian, and the list goes on, incuding Arafat himself personally ordering the machine-gun death of 2 American officers.