Islam,Israel,and the ME crisis-an objective view.

[muslim4israel2]

Hi,

I'm new to this site, and many of you may have been taken back by my screen name, and judging from your posts there is a lot of arogance and ignorance on this forum.

Lets tackle the question of Israel and Islam first.

Simply put, the vast majority of Muslim states and ppl do NOT hate Israel, indeed Turkey is a close ally of the Israeli state. This nation (Turkey) is one of the worlds most influencial muslim states (along with Pakistan and KSA, Egypt), and carries out join defence procedures!

The conflict is simply Israel-Arab, not Israel Islam or Islamic world. Arabs are less then 12% of Muslims, there is more muslims in China then in all the Arab states put together! Many many Muslims (inc. me) recognize Israel's right to dismantle terrorist cells which kill its civilians, and defend its people from fear and horror. Yet all I see is demonization of Islam and Muslims based on Arab actions.

9/11 is often cited, they were not "Islamic terrorists", but terrorists who happened to be muslims, they dont represent the 1.3bn Muslim of the world. They represent a political agenda and that alone.

Plz stop thinking all Muslims hate you, we dont. I dont, most dont. Arabs dont speak for all of us, and you need to recognize that.

On to the ME crisis.

Simply put, its a beef btw Israel and Palestine. There is a few idiots of both sides (esp. Sharon and Arafat) who create horrors for both people. But in the wider context, its no the problem of the "Islamic World". There are 54 Muslim nations, and only like 5 are involved at all-not really much is it?

Palestinians need to stop the acts of terror, and Israel needs to stop the humiliation-and some peace agreement can be reached. Say Israel withdraws to pre 67 borders, and then a demilitarized UN run zone btw 2 independant states is set up. That would solve it-death=death, and the circle of hate it the issue here.

On a different issue, I am amongst those who support Pakistani recognition of Israel and see how mutually benefical that can be. Its the big debate amongst Pakistani intellectual circles at the moment.

I'll explain later.

Peace!

[ibrodsky]

I agree with you that not all Muslims are against Israel. And I have asked others to be careful about making the distinction regarding Turkey.

However, I have to disagree with you to a point. There are also Arabs who aren't against Israel. Many Christian Arabs are pro-Israel, or at least not hostile.

The main enemy is militant Islam.

The followers of militant Islam believe that the West must be destroyed. These people can be found scattered throughout the Islamic world. They are found in the PA, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, and the Phillipines... and more. They have adopted an ideology that believes killing 3,000 American civilians was a good deed.

I mean no offense to you. There are people who claim to be Christians or Jews who adopt extreme and violent views.

But we must face the fact that militant Islam is a 21st century Nazi movement. It appears to have many tens of thousands of participants, and at least the sympathy of tens of millions of Muslims (based on opinion polls).

I believe that suicide bombing against women, children, and elderly is mainly motivated by militant Islam, though Palestinian terrorists are supported by others for non-religious reasons, too. And it was surely militant Islam that provided the ideological justification for the Pakistanis who cut off Daniel Pearl's head.

I also don't agree with equating Ariel Sharon with Yasir Arafat. The idea that Sharon is a "war criminal" is the same kind of militant islam propaganda as claims that Jews make pastries using blood of non-Jews, or that Israel distributes poison candy to Palestinian children.

The reason they hate Ariel Sharon is because he defeated much bigger Arab armies by outsmarting them. The events surrounding the Lebanese refugee camp "massacres" have been distorted beyond recognition. The PLO massacred tens of thousands of Lebanese. Christians went into the two camps and wiped out mostly gunmen. Of course, as we have seen in Israel, the Palestinians have no qualms about sending children into the streets to me "martyred." But the fact is that Christians went into those camps after their president had been assassinated -- and after the PLO had practically destroyed their country. These were not peaceful "refugee camps" -- they were more like military/terrorist bases.

The fact that shameless left-wing Israelis tried to pin at least some of the blame on Sharon (for political reasons) does not mean he is guilty. No fair court of law would convict someone of being "indirectly responsible" of any crime. You are either responsible or you are innocent. When someone is deemed "indirectly responsible" it means that there was no evidence, but his enemies were determined to pin something on him.

[victot]

hello muslim for israel,

welcome to the forum...

from my experience most muslims seem to not to like israel, or even jews, i even saw it a few times in popular culture, but whatever.

appreciate your input.

peace out

[L@mplighterM]

If it came down to a conflict where it was Islamic Fundamentalism versus the world. You’d have a difficult time convincing me that Muslims wouldn’t fight alongside the Fundamentalists.

China does not have more Muslims than the rest of the Arab States. The total Muslim population is estimated at 1.3 billion and China has anywhere from a low of around 25 million to a high of 38 million.

Link to estimate:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

It’s news to me that most Muslims aren’t anti west or anti Israel and a matter of fact I simply don’t believe it. Every poll, news article, news on TV, tells me that it’s simply not true. If the Muslim population of the world is 1.3 billion most becomes 650,000,000 +1. I think you’d have to be dreaming to believe a figure like that.

Simply put this is not a beef between Israelis and Palestinians. If that were the case the problem would have been solved a long time ago. There may be fools that believe that to be the case but I’m not one of them. A statement like that indicates that the writer is absolutely ignorant about the situation.

If the Palestinians feel humiliated it’s the fault of their leader. Perhaps you aren’t aware of the weapons and explosives that are being confiscated in the West Bank. Perhaps you aren’t aware of the 50 Tons of weapons on the ship that were confiscated. Perhaps you aren’t aware that Arafat has authorized payments to known terrorists. I guess Muslims want to sweep that under the rug and pull the wool over everyone’s eyes.

Where specifically are the 1967 borders and why should Israel revisit those borders?
When has your kind ever held a PRO ISRAEL OR PRO WEST DEMONSTRATION?

The trouble is that there are those among us that aren’t buying your twisted propaganda. By the way I’m one of them.

[Flame]

NICE INTRO muz 4 I 2

------------I'm new to this site, and many of you may have been taken back by my screen name, and judging from your posts there is a lot of arogance and ignorance on this forum. -------------


How very objective of you.

[muslim4israel2]

Firstly, China's muslim pop is approx 14% -thats PRC govt source. And has the following breakdown. The Hui ppl are almost exclusively muslim, and they are 12% of the population, there are some millions of Tartars in China, Mogonlian origin Muslims and of course converts to Islam. 14% of 1.x bn is about 140 million.

PRC should know more about China then the CIA. Its there country.

On to the muslim factor, have any of you travelled the muslim world?

No is the almost certain answer, and yet you take news clips and bias media to be representative of us all. Islam is so global, so big that if the entire muslim world was united against you there would be little for Israel to do-simply, the Muslim world largely is pre-occupied with our own problems in our individual states to care for the PA.

Finally why is "Militant Islam" (are you a anti Islam spin doc) a bigger threat then militant Israeli occupation, Militant Christianity like in Ireland or elsewhere, Militant Hinduiam as in Gujrat?

Plz explian.

Dont generalize.

[Ezra]

On to the muslim factor, have any of you travelled the muslim world?

No is the almost certain answer, and yet you take news clips and bias media to be representative of us all.

Hello muslim4israel2,

I lived in Egypt for over 20 years and I know the Koran and Islam as fluent as I know my own name...

Ofcourse you mentioned a lot of "wrong" data and misleading concepts.. I'll start replying to it and reveal the truth as soon as I have time....

[muslim4israel2]

Ok Ariel Sharon's right hand man, I await your responses. God indeed bless America, and I did say "ALMOST" not "definitely No".

Read!

[L@mplighterM]

Actually the Peoples Republic of China gives only the lowest figure of 28 million. So my figures stand because I provided evidence.

You seem to know where I have traveled I do however have news for you. I have traveled extensively in Europe. Is France close enough to the Muslim world?
I suppose you’re going to tell me that they are only having a little fun when they shoot at Jews and torch synagogues. Perhaps Muslims ideas of being peaceful are radically different. With friends like you who needs enemies?

Are you trying to switch the subject? What does Ireland have to do with this discussion? I think you’re the only one doing any spinning while I prefer sticking to facts. Don’t shoot the messenger.

Change your nick to Muslem4Islam and give me a break.

[Flame]

I know Muz will protest that what I'm saying is a lie... however, I know of 4 women who traveled to parts of the ME and had been kidnaped and apparently were able to escape before harm (rape) was done. One of theses women was 12 at the time... traveling in Morocco with her parents. All 4 situations happened with men driving by and snatching them into the car and 1 incident was a taxi driver.

Other people have reported that while traveling in the ME... they are always asked if they are Jewish.

[Negev]

muslim4israel2,

first you'll need to learn to ignore certain rude idiots who frequent this forum. you'll see that they are not able to answer your questions and are always angry and are probably on medication for their mental conditions. concentrate on what ibordsky, ezra and newsguy and some others say.

welcome.

[Gatorade]

muslim4Israel2,

Why don't more moderate Muslims speak out when Islamic militants commit horrific acts and say they are representing Islam?

Do you think there will ever be a civil war of ideas/word or maybe force between the moderate Muslims and the radical groups so the more moderate can retake their religion?

[muslim4israel2]

Mate Muslims speak out all over the place, but sadly the media gives coverage to the few idiots and not the masses of decent folk amongst us.

As for the PRC Islam issue, I'll find the exact link, but do the math:

Muslims in:

S.Asia=140m(pak)+150m(bang)+140m(ind)=430m
E.Asia= 200m(indo)+60m(others)=260m

Total: ~ 490-500million

Europe: 70m (60m in Turkey)

Africa: 400m~

So thats like 970m-we've still got an accepted 330m to go-so tell me where this phantam population is if China does not have 140m, and the CAR+NA+Latin America make up the rest.

As for a civil war-nah. Ultimately the 2% odd who are nasty ppl in any group (inc. you guys) get pushed away. Moderate and mainstream Islam will become "standard" again-once the media stops acting like its not.

[L@mplighterM]

This was in 1996 and it represents more or less 10 sources.


Country # in millions
Indonesia 182.2 m
Pakistan 136.9 m
Bangladesh 115.0 m
India 108.6 m
Iran 63.9 m
Turkey 61.0 m
Egypt 51.6 m
Nigeria 40.2 m
Algeria 29.1 m
China * 29.1 m
Morocco 29.1 m
Iraq 21.4 m
Sudan 20.4 m
Ethiopia 18.3 m
Afghanistan 18.0 m
Yemen 16.1 m
Saudi Arabia 16.0 m
Uzbekistan 15.9 m
Malaysia 10.5 m
Mali 9.4 m
Tunisia 9.0 m
Somalia 8.5 m
Senegal 7.7 m
Niger 7.5 m
Kazakhstan 6.9 m
Guinea 6.5 m
Azerbaijan 6.1 m
Cote d'Ivoire 5.9 m
Libya 5.2 m
Tajikstan 5.2 m
Burkina Faso 5.0 m
Jordan 3.6 m
Syria 3.5 m
Cameroon 3.1 m
Turkmenistan 3.1 m
Chad 2.9 m
Ghana 2.8 m
Kyrgyzstan 2.8 m
Israel (Palestine) 2.4 m
Mauritania 2.3 m
Mozambique 2.3 m
Sierra Leone 2.0 m
Bosnia 1.8 m
Serbia 1.8 m
United Arab Emirates 1.8 m
Lebanon 1.7 m
Oman 1.7 m
Malawi 1.5 m
Tanzania 1.5 m
Albania 1.4 m
Bulgaria 1.3 m
Brunei 1.2 m
Kuwait 1.2 m
Benin 0.95 m
Gambia 0.94 m
Togo 0.85 m
Macedonia 0.59 m
Bahrain 0.51 m
Comoros 0.51 m
Guinea Bissau 0.49 m
Qatar 0.47 m
Djibouti 0.45 m
Singapore 0.44 m
Liberia 0.40 m
Maldives 0.25 m
Mauritius 0.19 m
Sahara 0.13 m
Suriname 0.10 m
Cyprus 0.04 m
Gibraltar 0.003 m

* Muslims in China represent 2.4% of the population.

[Ezra]

Hi,

I'm new to this site, and many of you may have been taken back by my screen name, and judging from your posts there is a lot of arogance and ignorance on this forum.

hmmmmmmmmm…. I don't think so… Anyway, let's start!

Lets tackle the question of Israel and Islam first.

Simply put, the vast majority of Muslim states and ppl do NOT hate Israel, indeed Turkey is a close ally of the Israeli state. This nation (Turkey) is one of the worlds most influencial muslim states (along with Pakistan and KSA, Egypt), and carries out join defence procedures!

Ok… First mistake. The vast majority of Muslim states DO HATE ISRAEL AND JEWISH. I don't know what Muslims are you talking about (!) but I'm talking about the most influential Muslims, i.e. ARAB MUSLIMS. The hate of Israel and Jewish is VERY WELL ESTABLISHED in the people of such countries. This is based on a 3 years life experience in Kuwait and 22 years life experience in Egypt. You will find the hate in media, among people, in schools, universities, and streets… EVERYWHERE…. A very well established religious-based hate.
Forget about the joint defense and all these crab. This doesn't tell anything.. Turkey is secular country. Egypt had to do so coz it can't go into another war once again after 73! And KSA has to protect itself from Iraq and Iran!

The conflict is simply Israel-Arab, not Israel Islam or Islamic world.

Then you don't know anything about Muslims! The conflict from the Muslims point of view is pure Jewish-Islam conflict. Look at any demonstration in an Arab country and see the amount of Koran verses and religious chants that is used. Why going that far! Go to any Arabic/Islamic forum and see it by yourself.

Arabs are less then 12% of Muslims, there is more muslims in China then in all the Arab states put together! Many many Muslims (inc. me) recognize Israel's right to dismantle terrorist cells which kill its civilians, and defend its people from fear and horror. Yet all I see is demonization of Islam and Muslims based on Arab actions.

Arabs are 20% of Muslims (260M out of 1200M). But Arab Muslims are the most influential Islamic "organization". Simply because of the Azhar in Egypt (highest Islamic authority in the world) and Macca and Madina and El-Haram in Saudia Arabia. This plus the fact the Arab Muslim is considered a better-Islamic-educated because he dealt with Quraan in Arabic. Do you know that from the Islamic point of view, Qoraan can't be translated? What you have in your hand is a translation for the MEANINGS OF QORUAN. Hence, from the point of view of Arab Muslims, a non-arab has never read the REAL Qoraan unless he/she knows how to read Arabic. The last point is that it's Egypt and Saudia Arabia that usually sends their Islamic teachers (Doaa) for preaching. So, NO ONE can ever claim that Arabs don't represent Islam (or more precisely the EXACT VERSION of Islam). I can very easily prove that by NOT hating Jewish and Christian, you are violating Islam. All you can say is that non-Arabs have cleared Islam from its hate ideas whereas Arabs refuse to change anything from their Islam.

9/11 is often cited, they were not "Islamic terrorists", but terrorists who happened to be muslims, they dont represent the 1.3bn Muslim of the world. They represent a political agenda and that alone.

But on the other hand, these terrorists had VERY POWERFUL ISLAMIC JUSTIFICATION for their action which show how easy it is to convert ANY Muslim (not necessarily Arab) to a terrorists using ONLY Koran.

Plz stop thinking all Muslims hate you, we dont. I dont, most dont. Arabs dont speak for all of us, and you need to recognize that.

Ok, I guess we appreciate your feelings. But again, I can very easily prove to you that you violating God's "Islamic" orders by saying such phrase.

On to the ME crisis.

Simply put, its a beef btw Israel and Palestine. There is a few idiots of both sides (esp. Sharon and Arafat) who create horrors for both people. But in the wider context, its no the problem of the "Islamic World". There are 54 Muslim nations, and only like 5 are involved at all-not really much is it?

No.. It's not "few idiots" of both sides. If you have any Arabic-speaking friend, I can send you a link to one of the most "moderate" Arabic forum, and you can see by yourself that (a) it's not few. They are majority, and (b) Again it is not a reaction for Israel actions but rather a constant, unchangeable religious situation.

Palestinians need to stop the acts of terror, and Israel needs to stop the humiliation-and some peace agreement can be reached. Say Israel withdraws to pre 67 borders, and then a demilitarized UN run zone btw 2 independant states is set up. That would solve it-death=death, and the circle of hate it the issue here.

Do you think if Israel got back to pre-67 borders, the Arabs will be happy and satisfied? Think again.

[muslim4israel2]

If Israel returned to the pre 67 borders, it couldnt do any harm could it. I doubt either side is truly yearning for a peace, its very sad to be honest.

For all we know both sides will end up killing each other off, and then the UN can auction the land to the highest bidder. I bid E200-thats my final offer! :D

[Ezra]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
If Israel returned to the pre 67 borders, it couldnt do any harm could it.

Do you really think that arabs and muslims will be satisified if this happened?!!!!!!

[muslim4israel2]

They'd have to accept.

[Ezra]

Then u don't know anything about arabs/muslims...

Read their forums, newspapers, or even have a discussion with the most moderate person of them. You will be surprised from teh answer!

[victot]

hey ezra...

i don't mean this at any offence...
today i read this book which talked about how right wing christians support israel, but don't want to talk about peace at all, because it's part of the end day schriptures that right before the world ends, there's supposed to be a massive war in the area, and then the missianic era will come.
supposedly, very right wing religious jews think the same.

im just curious, as a christian, do you believe in the end of days war?

[L@mplighterM]

Armageddon I sure hope so just before the end barbecueeverything. I’d have gone nuclear a long time ago.

I thought Dan Quayle was nuts with his small nuclear weapons but reflecting back I think he had the right idea.

[christian]

Ezra,

There are many question I want to ask you.

I am a christian too.

In the Chapter 9,
It talks about war of Euphrates(Iraq and Iran area)
It mentions god holds back four corners of angels. It means God is holding back the escalating crisis. He will eventually let go off the four angels.

It mentions great war will happen over there.
The Iran and Iraq war is not even 2 hundred million. Only the global army war can reach to 2 hundred million armies.

What do u think about war on Euphrates?

I think it will happen some day. No matter, where you are in the world. The news is always mentioning Arabs and jewish conflict.
People in the south america is also concern. People from faraway like Singapore, is also concern.

By the way, I heard a interpretation from "Rabbi" about Israel.
If American gives land to the Palestinian. American will be greatly weakened. British give away the land of palestine to Palestintian. The british empire collapse very soon. The Roman prosecute the jews, their empire is decline since. The spanish inquistion persecute the jews. Eversince, Spain is lost to Britain.

When I think of it, there is some truth about it. Spanish have the strongest army at the time of middle age. They just lost to British.

"God will bless those who bless you. God will curse those who curse you"

Is there a biblical interpretation for this?
Is there a historical evidence for this?
Or is this just mere overzealous Zionist interpretation?

I think there is some truth about it. May be I am a christian that betrays my perception. :rolleyes: :confused: :eek:

[Ezra]

Originally posted by victot
hey ezra...

i don't mean this at any offence...
today i read this book which talked about how right wing christians support israel, but don't want to talk about peace at all, because it's part of the end day schriptures that right before the world ends, there's supposed to be a massive war in the area, and then the missianic era will come.
supposedly, very right wing religious jews think the same.

im just curious, as a christian, do you believe in the end of days war?

And do you really thing the "war trip" in the ME right now is a "massive war" ?????????????????????????

Why do they support Israel? So that the "massive war" doesn't start? Are they afraid of the end of days if so?

I don't see any meaning or point for your question(s).

Maybe you can start by first clarifying whether this "right wing" wants or doesn't want the last days to come!

[L@mplighterM]

Is this going to turn into a site for Jehovah Witnesses next?

[victot]

ezra,

im not exactly sure what i mean.

in the book i read, or at least the chapter, it talked about how there are a lot of right wing evangelical christians, as well as right wing jews who wants there to be a major war in the middle east, so the messianic era will arrive.
do you believe in that?

the book talked about how in around the year 2000, there was a cow that was born in israel that was completely red. some israelis in the area felt that this was more dangerous then any terrorist, because it is written somewhere, im not sure if in the bible or talmudic texts, that in the histroy of the world or something, there have only been 9 perfectly red cows.
it is written that the only way for a priest to become pure, is to sacrifice a perfectly red cow, and that is the only way they can enter the temple mount.
it is written that right before the messianic era comes, the tenth and final red cow will come, and it could be sacrificed, and that way orthodox jews will have gotten the symbol from g-d that the El-Aksa mosque (i think that's the mosque built on the temple mount)
anyways, it turned out that red cow had a few white spots, so it wasn't considerd perfect enough.

oh well, i dont think i described what the book said so well, and i guess i don't really have any real questions, so ezra, respond or not to this, i dunno.

[victot]

sorry, i didnt even finnish what i was poorly trying to say...

it is written that right before the messianic era comes, the tenth and final red cow will come, and it could be sacrificed, and that way orthodox jews will have gotten the symbol from g-d that the El-Aksa mosque (i think that's the mosque built on the temple mount) and jews will destroy the mosque, which would undoubtably lead to a major war... they were worried about zellots doing this.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by christian
Ezra,

There are many question I want to ask you.

I am a christian too.

In the Chapter 9,
It talks about war of Euphrates(Iraq and Iran area)
It mentions god holds back four corners of angels. It means God is holding back the escalating crisis. He will eventually let go off the four angels.

It mentions great war will happen over there.
The Iran and Iraq war is not even 2 hundred million. Only the global army war can reach to 2 hundred million armies.

What do u think about war on Euphrates?

I think it will happen some day. No matter, where you are in the world. The news is always mentioning Arabs and jewish conflict.
People in the south america is also concern. People from faraway like Singapore, is also concern.

By the way, I heard a interpretation from "Rabbi" about Israel.
If American gives land to the Palestinian. American will be greatly weakened. British give away the land of palestine to Palestintian. The british empire collapse very soon. The Roman prosecute the jews, their empire is decline since. The spanish inquistion persecute the jews. Eversince, Spain is lost to Britain.

When I think of it, there is some truth about it. Spanish have the strongest army at the time of middle age. They just lost to British.

"God will bless those who bless you. God will curse those who curse you"

Is there a biblical interpretation for this?
Is there a historical evidence for this?
Or is this just mere overzealous Zionist interpretation?

I think there is some truth about it. May be I am a christian that betrays my perception. :rolleyes: :confused: :eek:


Christian,

Why do you want to spend your time in that? Do you want to know when is the last day? Don't you know it's written, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." [Mark 13:32].

What? Are you afraid of the last day? Then "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hourin which the Son of Man is coming." [Matthew 25:13].

[cerulean]

There was a red heifer born a few years ago that ended up having a few white hairs on it, so it was disqualified.

However, I recently read there is a new red heifer that appears to be red all over.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/current-events/RedHeifer/index.html

That site and
http://templemountfaithful.org/index.htm

are related to the issue of rebuilding a third temple.

(I'm not endorsing these sites, but pointing them out for those who are interested.)

[Ezra]

Originally posted by victot
ezra,

im not exactly sure what i mean.

in the book i read, or at least the chapter, it talked about how there are a lot of right wing evangelical christians, as well as right wing jews who wants there to be a major war in the middle east, so the messianic era will arrive.
do you believe in that?

the book talked about how in around the year 2000, there was a cow that was born in israel that was completely red. some israelis in the area felt that this was more dangerous then any terrorist, because it is written somewhere, im not sure if in the bible or talmudic texts, that in the histroy of the world or something, there have only been 9 perfectly red cows.
it is written that the only way for a priest to become pure, is to sacrifice a perfectly red cow, and that is the only way they can enter the temple mount.
it is written that right before the messianic era comes, the tenth and final red cow will come, and it could be sacrificed, and that way orthodox jews will have gotten the symbol from g-d that the El-Aksa mosque (i think that's the mosque built on the temple mount)
anyways, it turned out that red cow had a few white spots, so it wasn't considerd perfect enough.

oh well, i dont think i described what the book said so well, and i guess i don't really have any real questions, so ezra, respond or not to this, i dunno.

Victot,

I have quoted a part from the Gospel of Luke and marked some important verses (so you don't have to read everything). A part of my reply to you also is in my reply to christian.

Luke 21
5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

.......... to be continued

[cerulean]

What is indisputable from an archeological viewpoint, is that the Palestinian Authority is preventing proper research of the Temple Mount area by archeologists. Truckloads of earth are being taken to the rubbish heap.

[christian]

Ezra,

I want to ask you another question.

Did the jews find the Ark of the covenant?

Is this guy fake?
http://www.wyattarchaeology.com/

This guys said he find the ark of the covenant.

I am being kind of naive. :p
I am curious anyway. :D

[muslim4israel2]

I am aware of the apparent hostility of certain muslims groups towards Israel, but I do know my faith and I know many moderate muslims much like my self.

[L@mplighterM]

Strange I read nothing but bias in your posts.

Most of what you post aren't supported by facts and when asked for facts it's ignore ignore ignore.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by christian
Did the jews find the Ark of the covenant?

Sorry! You'll have to buy Ron Wyatt's books and videos.

For Toll Free Telephone Orders Call:
1- 877- 992-8865

It's called fringe archeology. Bummer, ain't it? :(

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
I am aware of the apparent hostility of certain muslims groups towards Israel, but I do know my faith and I know many moderate muslims much like my self.

Personally, I don't find you moderate but who cares, right?

Of course vis-a-vis the Moslem we have around here, you may indeed turn out to be a pussy cat. :rolleyes:

[Ezra]

Originally posted by christian
Ezra,

I want to ask you another question.

Did the jews find the Ark of the covenant?

Is this guy fake?
http://www.wyattarchaeology.com/

This guys said he find the ark of the covenant.

I am being kind of naive. :p
I am curious anyway. :D

I heard about it. I, however, haven't heard anyone verifying the age of the discovered fossils through Carbon 14 for. But even though, there is nothing that says it can't be found! :)

[Ezra]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
I am aware of the apparent hostility of certain muslims groups towards Israel, but I do know my faith and I know many moderate muslims much like my self.

The point is not to be moderate or not. The point is how much do you violate your religion when you are considered a moderate person.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem


Personally, I don't find you moderate but who cares, right?

Of course vis-a-vis the Moslem we have around here, you may indeed turn out to be a pussy cat. :rolleyes:


You dont find Muslem4Islam moderate? *lol*

[muslim4israel2]

You are free to feel what you wish.

I care for your opinion about as much as the last time a used the bathroom. :rolleyes:

[Ezra]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
You are free to feel what you wish.

I care for your opinion about as much as the last time a used the bathroom. :rolleyes:

Since you mention it... Do you know that your prophet Mohammad ordered muslims to enter bathrooms with their right foot?

Make sure to do that or else !

[muslim4israel2]

And did you know Moses ordered you to............the difference is I'll respect your religion. One of my best friends is Jewish.

[L@mplighterM]

I figured you?d play my best friend is Jewish card sooner or later. Why don?t you admit that it?s a lie to establish some badly needed credibility in this forum? What are you going to change your nick to next? Jew4Israel2 or Honest2

[muslim4israel2]

LOL!

You knowing me personally allows you to know the religious conviction of my friends.

Credibility-yeah, like I really care what YOU think of me! :rolleyes:

Note to "muslim4israel2: Your message was edited by the Forum's management to remove a personal attack.

[christian]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
And did you know Moses ordered you to............the difference is I'll respect your religion. One of my best friends is Jewish.

Note to "Christian: Your message was edited by the Forum's management to remove obscenities.


One thing about muslim is they always say nice things about Christiant and Judaism. The muslim is alway say they are tolerant. which many exports are to these christian country with Jewish people.$$$$ :eek:

why you Muslim blow up the 4000 years buddhist statue in AFGHASTAN? Why so call "the MODERATE" don't even speak out about insanity?

The silence in moderate means I approve the radicals are doing. They are doing the world some good, for the sake of ALLAH.

The official line of Xinjing, set up a islamic state.
Then we would spread out the islam into china.

Can any arabs or muslim change my bias mind? Or am I just living the daily "reality" of muslim ?

Please don't quote me Koran.
Just give me reasonable answer, like a political discussion.

[muslim4israel2]

I have Chinese friends, and cos of Pak-China friendship most PRC ppl like muslims ect. But your just 1 guy/girl from that wonderful nations.

The PRC govt has no beef with the muslims of the world, and they even have a stable relationship with a few seperatists, but most muslims in the PRC cities love it.

China always closes drug smuggling churhces though-why's that?

:rolleyes:

[L@mplighterM]

Most of the Heroin in the world is produced in Islamic countries.

[muslim4israel2]

Probably, I wouldnt know.

Most of the worlds UN resolution violations are occuring some place else.

Care to geuss? :rolleyes:

[christian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by muslim4israel2
[B]I have Chinese friends, and cos of Pak-China friendship most PRC ppl like muslims ect. But your just 1 guy/girl from that wonderful nations.

The PRC govt has no beef with the muslims of the world, and they even have a stable relationship with a few seperatists, but most muslims in the PRC cities love it.

China always closes drug smuggling churhces though-why's that?

you means underground christian.

I think you never go to China. You never read the chinese news. YOur information is coming from muslim world or your chinese pal living in US. The US information is very anti-china. The western media never focus on the progress on china. They always focus on "HUMAN RIGHT". Which is ridicules. If you don't have food, how can you have "HUMAN RIGHT". If you don't have a large middle class, how can you have "HUMAN RIGHT"/

Yes. Again, I admit they lock up the underground christian. One of the reason is we have two christian revolution.

As long as you practice religion in the central authority recognization. It is fine. I go to the book shop in China. I can buy four bibles,without getting arrested. I go to the church, without getting arrested. If I go to the destinated church.

There is also great misinterpretation of law between the local government and central governemtn. Like the Fukin province, the vice governor is christian. The police department ,the department head is christian. It doesn't make sense, if police go to police department head's church. You get arrested!?

However, if you preach christianty in openly, you will get arrested. AGain, it really depends who you know(eg, police department head). It is not what you know(law).

Law is not pefect yet. It will be perfect in 15 years, since the international interaction will change the basic structure of china.

PRC loves and hates the muslim. They have a good dioplamacy with ARABS. This doesn't mean they love muslim.
Since 9-11, China is very focus on the muslim origin countries. They are very nervous, when the APEC meeting opened last year.
They don't let muslim origin fly in the country. They can't say in the international press. They say it is a mistake for the travel agents misinterpret "the command" from the central authority.


Just a three months ago, Mr. bush's visit, a few street is set up with blocks. Not a fly is flying in that area.

PRC loves and hates muslim. This is a better definition.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
Probably, I wouldnt know.

Most of the worlds UN resolution violations are occuring some place else.

Care to geuss? :rolleyes:

I dont think you'd know the difference between a UN resolution and my dogs arse. Yap yap yap yap all talk.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
And did you know Moses ordered you to............the difference is I'll respect your religion. One of my best friends is Jewish.

So what? I have many muslim friends! I don't see why mentoning something authenticated (from Islamic sources) about Muhammad is considered irrespecting?

[muslim4israel2]

Ezra, you have no friends.

[Ezra]

I lived over 20 yrs in Egypt sweetie!

Prove it that I don't have any Muslim friends (al-bayyena ala man eddaa), right?

[muslim4israel2]

I distinctly said NO FRIENDS! period. :rolleyes:

[Ezra]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
I distinctly said NO FRIENDS! period. :rolleyes:


Weird!! Who told you I'm a Muslim?!

[muslim4israel2]

Hahahaha!

Percentage of world that hates muslims: 15-25% (?)

Hates Jews: 50-65%

Not nice reading is it. Every EU nation has a few parties that diss you lot-very few parties here are anti Islamic. Why's that?

Besides, isnt there a Palestinian house for you to bulldoze around there?

[L@mplighterM]

Hates Jews: 50-65%


Are you one of them?

[muslim4israel2]

Much to your disappoinment, NO. I hate NO ONE. I am an all loving, all liking stand up nice guy. :D

[ibrodsky]

Here is my long overdue response (I was out of town off and on and missed this):

Finally why is "Militant Islam" (are you a anti Islam spin doc) a bigger threat then militant Israeli occupation, Militant Christianity like in Ireland or elsewhere, Militant Hinduiam as in Gujrat?

Militant Islam is by far the greater threat. You can hardly have an "objective view" if you don't see that.

First, militant Islam is an ideology that says mass murder of civilians is not only acceptable, but a good thing.

Second, there are probably tens of millions and possible well over 100 million people who subscribe to militant Islam.

Third, militant islam seeks world conquest and imposition of fascist theocratic regimes (e.g., Iran).

Specific examples: mass murder in NYC, Pennsylvania, and Washington, DC. Decades of killing children and elderly in Israel. Cutting off Daniel Pearl's head simply because he was a Jew.

Militant Islamic sites are filled with Holocaust denial, White Power anti-semitic lies, etc.

Militant Islam glories in death and gore.

Really, need I go on? Militant Islam is the most disgusting and pernicious, and dangerous ideology on Earth. It must be crushed, and it will be crushed.

Afghanistan and the PA are just the start.

[L@mplighterM]

Really, need I go on? Militant Islam is the most disgusting and pernicious, and dangerous ideology on Earth. It must be crushed, and it will be crushed.

I wholeheartedly agree but I fear it?s too late. The enemy of freedom and equality for all surrounds us. Who are they? They are an invisible enemy that may be your doctor, store owner or a student.

Slowly taking roots waiting to extinguish their enemies.

[muslim4israel2]

1 question for that kid:

Why would MUSLIM'S-the majority of whom are BLACK AFRIANS, and then ASIANS, support WHITE SUPREMIST GROUPS?

Seems a tad odd to me?

Duh!

:rolleyes:

[ibrodsky]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
1 question for that kid:

Why would MUSLIM'S-the majority of whom are BLACK AFRIANS, and then ASIANS, support WHITE SUPREMIST GROUPS?


Well, you see they are just so darn "desperate," "frustrated," and "humiliated by checkpoints" that they are left with no choice but to make league with Nazis.

If you don't believe that Islamic sites contain White Power, Neo Nazi, and Holocaust denial material, I will be glad to provide specific examples with specific URLs.

[L@mplighterM]

One of my best friends is Jewish

Has he ever visited you in Cuba?

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
1 question for that kid:

Why would MUSLIM'S-the majority of whom are BLACK AFRIANS, and then ASIANS, support WHITE SUPREMIST GROUPS?


When you grow up you'll find that the world is full of surprises.

[muslim4israel2]

Example's plz:

Inc. URL

Thanks.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Arab/Muslem holocaust denial (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf25.html#Denial)

The Muftiand the Fuhrer (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html)

Radio Islam Presents David Duke (http://www.abbc.com/duke/). For those of you that don't know (and Radio Islam left it out of their Who is David Duke page (http://www.abbc.com/duke/duke.htm), he's the former head of the KKK (http://www.adl.org/presrele/Extremism_72/3554_72.asp). A minor exclusion.

Let's start with this list. Any questions, class?

[muslim4israel2]

After watching TV I'll check out those links. Thanks.

[ibrodsky]

Here is one of the most astounding examples of Islamic bigotry:

http://www.abbc.com/islam/english/toread/frnklin.htm

[ibrodsky]

and a more tame home of Jewish conspiracy theories:

http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/04/12992.php

[ibrodsky]

Here is a pro-Palestinian site that says the Holocaust was a Jewish hoax:

http://www.moqawama.tv/page2/f_articl.htm

(click on QUESTIONS ON THE HOLOCAUST link.)

(THE JEWISH GOLD IN SWITZERLAND is also a proud addition to Arab anti-semitism.)

[raven]

Moderate? the old joke goes "compared to what". Everybody can fit into a Moderate designation if they havent finished either teaching that homocide bombings or paying for homocide bombings or making excuses for homocide bombings.

Sheesh. Where is the "moderate" bar being set these days?

[raven]

Im not sure of the exact dates...but last Fall, I believe, there were two separate attempts to host Holocaust Deniel Meetings in the Islamic World. I believe one was to be in Jordan. It didnt "come off". (US pressure) The other was in Lebanon that in fact was held. If I have the countries wrong, please tell me. The REASON I dont know as much as I should know, is that the Media burried the story. It wasnt going to fit their "storyline" of oppressed, tolerant Islam to publicize this part of Islamic Culture. The Media was also dragged kicking and screaming to air the stories of the constant "hate instruction" in Islamic Schools, Islamic Newpapers, Islamic Books and Magazines.

A little note on Islam and Anti Jewish/Anti Semetic Literature dissemination. There is a link between Islamic Terror and Nationalistic Groups AND White Supremecists Groups. Both are supporting and funding each other. Lots of funding comes from the sale of Classic Western Antisememtic Materials and the new Moslem Antisememtic Literature. They talk about this in a PBS Video and Book "The Longest Hatred..or Longest Hate.." Amazon has it.

[raven]

muslim4--- SOME MODERATE... I just read what you wrote. Give me a break!!! Its Full of Hate. Also NOT what I think you claim you are. A few things dont add up.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by raven
muslim4--- SOME MODERATE... I just read what you wrote. Give me a break!!! Its Full of Hate. Also NOT what I think you claim you are. A few things dont add up.

Give the poor guy a break all he wants is world conquest for Islam.

[mrbaggins]

where is the guy?

I was quite enjoying pounding his substandard understanding of reality.

[muslim4israel2]

As is told by Krazy Bone:

"Come come flex, should have worn that vest".

I was busy shifting units. :D

[muslim4israel2]

THANKS FOR THOSE LINKS-WITH GRADUATION IN 5 WEEKS I DONT HAVE TIME TO FREQUENT THIS SITE AS PREVIOUSLY.


HOWEVER, I WAS FASCINATED TO READ THE ARTICLE'S BY MR DAVID DUKE AND HIS OPINION OF THE JEWISH PPL. MORE REVETING WAS THE CLIAM THAT MUSLIM GROUPS SPONSOR HIM-IF SO, CAN YOU PLZ FIND AND NAME HERE:

1) WHICH GROUPS?
2) HOW LONG FOR?


CYA.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
MORE REVETING WAS THE CLIAM THAT MUSLIM GROUPS SPONSOR HIM-IF SO, CAN YOU PLZ FIND AND NAME HERE:
1) WHICH GROUPS?
2) HOW LONG FOR?

Where is this claim made?

I mean, it's easy to find stuff like this:

http://www.tanzeem.org/resources/articles/articles/david%20duke-the%20real%20evil%20spirit.htm

Just search with Google.

[L@mplighterM]

THANKS FOR THOSE LINKS-WITH GRADUATION IN 5 WEEKS I DONT HAVE TIME TO FREQUENT THIS SITE AS PREVIOUSLY.


Are you studying Nuclear Physics or Biochemistry?

[Shuki]

Originally posted by muslim4israel2
THANKS FOR THOSE LINKS-WITH GRADUATION IN 5 WEEKS I DONT HAVE TIME TO FREQUENT THIS SITE AS PREVIOUSLY.


HOWEVER, I WAS FASCINATED TO READ THE ARTICLE'S BY MR DAVID DUKE AND HIS OPINION OF THE JEWISH PPL. MORE REVETING WAS THE CLIAM THAT MUSLIM GROUPS SPONSOR HIM-IF SO, CAN YOU PLZ FIND AND NAME HERE:

1) WHICH GROUPS?
2) HOW LONG FOR?


CYA.

Graduation, oy have I been speaking with children. :)

[L@mplighterM]

Graduation, oy have I been speaking with children.


Children can be deadly these days.

[ibrodsky]

Muslim4israel2

Typically dishonest. You argue that Palestinians & supporters are not allied with White Power groups. When we show you the proof -- and there is plenty of it -- you complain you are too busy to read it!

Militant Islam is 21st century Nazism. Know this.

[gregg]

Originally posted by christian
Ezra,

There are many question I want to ask you.

I am a christian too.

In the Chapter 9,
It talks about war of Euphrates(Iraq and Iran area)
It mentions god holds back four corners of angels. It means God is holding back the escalating crisis. He will eventually let go off the four angels.

It mentions great war will happen over there.
The Iran and Iraq war is not even 2 hundred million. Only the global army war can reach to 2 hundred million armies.

What do u think about war on Euphrates?

I think it will happen some day. No matter, where you are in the world. The news is always mentioning Arabs and jewish conflict.
People in the south america is also concern. People from faraway like Singapore, is also concern.

By the way, I heard a interpretation from "Rabbi" about Israel.
If American gives land to the Palestinian. American will be greatly weakened. British give away the land of palestine to Palestintian. The british empire collapse very soon. The Roman prosecute the jews, their empire is decline since. The spanish inquistion persecute the jews. Eversince, Spain is lost to Britain.

When I think of it, there is some truth about it. Spanish have the strongest army at the time of middle age. They just lost to British.

"God will bless those who bless you. God will curse those who curse you"

Is there a biblical interpretation for this?
Is there a historical evidence for this?
Or is this just mere overzealous Zionist interpretation?

I think there is some truth about it. May be I am a christian that betrays my perception. :rolleyes: :confused: :eek:

forgot to mention one thing, the US supports the Jews and look at who is the only superpower left standing.

[gregg]

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
THANKS FOR THOSE LINKS-WITH GRADUATION IN 5 WEEKS I DONT HAVE TIME TO FREQUENT THIS SITE AS PREVIOUSLY.


Are you studying Nuclear Physics or Biochemistry?

Cruel, yet funny

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by gregg


Cruel, yet funny

Scary is more like it.

[Mediocrates]

From the Foreign Policy Research Institute

http://www.fpri.org/enotes/americawar.20020423.radu.futilesearchforrootcauses .html


"It is hubris to attempt to explain terrorism in general, let alone in its many different forms across time and place. The following observations are therefore intended only to refocus the debate, not to "explain" terrorism"

[abdullah]

This is probably not relevant any more since this topic has declined like all posting sites into personal attacks.

But some history on Muslims in China:
Muslims in China (http://chinese-school.netfirms.com/Muslims.html)


Oh and someone asked earlier if the moderates were doing anything about combating Islamic fundamentalism.... We are working on it, slowly and surely. But we need help and not the violent type. Part of the problem is that many, actually most, muslims don't know enough about their religion and so are easily taken in by fundamentalists who then tell them that something is Islamic and ideal when it may not. For example suicide bombing, suicide is very clearly forbidden, even for causes of war. Also Muhammad stricly forbade the harming of non-militray such as women, children and even men who were not armed or surrendered.

[abdullah]

Oh and if you are curious.

I studied IT at uni, not physics, nuclear physics, chemistry, biology, electronics or any other such things. And I'm only a competent programer. My studies focused mainly on systems analysis. So there is no need to fear me.

[minusthejihad]

Welcome to the board. I also think that besides a lack of knowledge of their own religion, there is serious lack of knowledge of the West and other religions. I've always believed that the general masses want peace and such, but their leaders filter the kind of info they get.

[Womble]

Also Muhammad stricly forbade the harming of non-militray such as women, children and even men who were not armed or surrendered.
Moreover, during the early Middle Ages, Islamic scholars were- for the first time in human history- very seriously debating whether it was legitimate to use indiscriminately killing weapons. Many of them proposed banning catapults and the use of fire during city sieges.

[abdullah]

Welcome to the board. I also think that besides a lack of knowledge of their own religion, there is serious lack of knowledge of the West and other religions. I've always believed that the general masses want peace and such, but their leaders filter the kind of info they get.

This is very true. Particularly of Muslim dominated countries. But then again the reciprical is also true. The number of people who believe that muslims worship hundreds of gods or the moon is astounding in Australia. I believe there was a documentary produced in the USA which examined this point in US societies. It found that the Christian population of a town that was opposed to the construction of a mosque had no knowledge about Islam but that the Muslims of that same town had a substantial knowledge of Christianity.

However when I traveled around Saudi Arabia I found the opposite. Muslims in Saudi Arabia had no knowledge of Christianity, but Christians I met who had worked for years in Saudi Arabia knew Islam very well. These Christians were appauled at how Islam was being twisted by finatics.

I wonder if the same goes for Jews, Muslims and Christians in Isreal?

As to the general masses wanting peace? I would have to agree with you. Most of the populations I have dealt with just want and end to the fighting more than anything else.

[SteveK]

Oh and if you are curious.

I studied IT at uni, not physics, nuclear physics, chemistry, biology, electronics or any other such things. And I'm only a competent programer. My studies focused mainly on systems analysis. So there is no need to fear me.


Hi abdullah,

Did you read the book:

IBM and the Holocaust

By Edwin Black
Crown Publishers
519 pages

"The Strategic Alliance Between NAZI Germany and America's Most Powerful Corporation"

It describes the decisive impact of computerized applications (punch card technology at the time) of IBM's equipment for the efficient and effective realization of NAZI Germany's murdering millions of Jews.

Computer technology is in all peaceful and wartime applications.

If all you were is just a competent systems analyst, then I wouldn't fear you.
I have to explain many realities of computer applications to such "competent systems analysts".

But, you stated that you are a competent programmer. That can be dangerous.

[abdullah]

Good points.

But by competent I mean that I can write a program that can add numbers and save a text file using VB. But not much more than that.

I can design good GUIs and tell you how a database should look like. But the actual writing of code and manipulation of the database is beyond me. I leave that to the programers and developers where I work which is a gov department, to work there requires police background checks.

[minusthejihad]

Mess around with PHP and MySQL, its open source and the wave of the future. Such as this site. I've quit building static websites and now exclusively use Content Management Systems like Postnuke, TikiWiki and OSCommerce. I first started with Access, ASP, and VB, but I found PHP much more user friendly and expandable.

[kara]

Shalom.

I'm turkish - and have read some of the posted messages here and have some few comments. Here are some of my points...

A) HISTORICALLY, Jews have "received" much more damage from Christian Nations, than from Muslim Nations. We all know the turkic kingdom of Khazaria that mass converted to Judaism in 620 and allowed a huge influx of israellites (more than 50% of Khazaria's population were Israellites at a point in time). The Khazars moved westward and established some of the Jewish centers in eastern Europe (according to Kevin Brook, and Abba Eban in his book "My People").

B) When Osman, the founder of the Ottoman Empire, conquered Bursa, he found a jewish community which were opressed by the Byzantines- and instructed, funded and allowed the building of the Etz-Ha-Hayim synagoe, which this day today is still the oldest synagogue in the World. It is still in Bursa!

C) In 1492, 250.000 jews fled from spain and only Ottoman Turkey would accept them. The turkish sultans nullified the Roman "No Return Law" so Jews could once again move to Yerushalaim, and turkish sultans restored the whole city as a gesture to the new Ottoman citizens. When the jews arrived to Istanbul, Bayazid II remarked that "the Catholic monarch Ferdinand was wrongly considered as wise, since he impoverished Spain by the expulsion of the Jews, and enriched Turkey". Such welcomed were the Jews.


D) Over the centuries an increasing number of European Jews, escaping persecution in their native countries, settled in the Ottoman Empire. In 1537 the Jews expelled from Apulia (Italy) after the city fell under Papal control, in 1542 those expelled from Bohemia by King Ferdinand found a safe haven in the Ottoman Empire.(8) In March of 1556, Sultan Suleyman "the Magnificent" wrote a letter to Pope Paul IV asking for the immediate release of the Ancona Marranos, which he declared to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no other alternative than to release them, the Ottoman Empire being the "Super Power" of those days. By 1477, Jewish households in Istanbul numbered 1647 or 11% of the total. Half a century later, 8070 Jewish houses were listed in the city.


E) On October 27,1840 Sultan Abdulmecid issued his famous ferman concerning the "Blood Libel Accusation" saying: "... and for the love we bear to our subjects, we cannot permit the Jewish nation, whose innocence for the crime alleged against them is evident, to be worried and tormented as a consequence of accusations which have not the least foundation in truth...".

F) Theodore Hertzl studied law in Istanbul - and had negotiations with Sultan Abdulhamid about the creation of a homeland for the Jews in Judea. At first, Abdulhamit understood the need, but could not make such a promise. But new rounds of negotiations were started - but unfortunately Abdulhamit died.

G) Europe on the other hand tried very hard to ethnically cleanse the land from Jews. When the first crusade started, the crusaders didnt just walk of to current days Turkey. They started to slaughter Jews because they saw them as the main reason why Jesus was crucified.

H) Country by country in Europe percecuted the Jews - and during WWII... well we all know the tragic history of Shoah/Holocaust. Even at this point in time, many turkish diplomats helped Jews from Percecution. My own father's cousin married a jewish girl fleeing from Nazi germanys occupation of Greece.

I) Turkey was the fifth nation to recognize Israel.


ALL THIS SAID - I do agree that many muslim nations these days exhibit some sort of antisemitic behaviour. It is basically due to the perverted interpretation of Islam which unfortunately is predominant in the arab world.
During Ottoman reign, when the turks where the foremost interpreters, Islam was considered a "protocol" to Judaism. Judaism was "the base" of Islam - since Abraham, Moses, Noah and all the great prophet were jews. Thus, some of the Seyh-ul-Islam (the "cardinals of Islam") were even jewish converts!

ISRAEL has her right to exist and to defend herself. Sometimes I ask myself the question "what would you do, If turks were jews, and Turkey was Israel". I can most surely tell you, I would build 10 walls not 1; I would kill every single terrorist without blinking my eyes just once; If arab nations invaded us like they did in 1967 against Israel, I would do my outmust to wipe them off the surface of the earth; I wouldnt even give "land for peace". I would hate their guts, their religion, their mindset, their very smell! THATS what I would do. Everyone with an I.Q. above 30 MUST agree, that Israel has been VERY LARGE towards their enemies - while their enemies dream of the Israeli lands night after night!

Islam, having been "taken over" by the arabs after back-stabbing the Ottomans during WW I, has increasingly become a perverted and wrongly interpreted and executed religion. Arabs MUST realize, that the only way the world will ever respect muslims (and particularly arabs), is by making Islam what it was once : a civilized religion.

To all those arabs who think that strapping bomb around your waist in the name of God is "good religion" i have a good advice : Dont bother. Just go into your bathroom, and pull the trigger. That way you will die more easily, and not even take innocent civilians into you death.

I hope Turkey and Israel will keep up the good cooperation, which through my eyes, is a natural continuation of the historic friendship between our nations the last 1000 years. I also hope arabs will soon get to their senses, and stop their terrorist war (since they dont have the guts or ability to start a "real war") against Israel.

Le Hitra-ot.

Kara

[varian]

It describes the decisive impact of computerized applications (punch card technology at the time) of IBM's equipment for the efficient and effective realization of NAZI Germany's murdering millions of Jews.


One of these machines is on display at the USHMM in DC. It was used to classify and categorize the "racial background" of German citizens for subsequent further review. Quite chilling really.

[MGB8]

Turkey has for a long time been a friend to Israel. Much of that was based on its staunchly ANTI-MILITANT-ISLAM stance...which has, apparently, softened in the last 5 years or so. There is some concern. Nevertheless, that does not change the history.

[kara]

Turkey has for a long time been a friend to Israel. Much of that was based on its staunchly ANTI-MILITANT-ISLAM stance...which has, apparently, softened in the last 5 years or so. There is some concern. Nevertheless, that does not change the history.

MGB8... I would still consider Turkey a staunch ally of Israel. Remember that the turkish version of Islam is not like the arab. In turkey, Mevlana is the founder of our version of Islam - one based on love and respect for god and mankind.

True - there have been some ilamist tendencies - but the REAL power is still in the hands of the military. It is a jabonistic state - its deep.... very deep... and the Military is secular - and will remain so. It is the heritage of Atatürk, which lay the foundation for the republic.

Even now, with Erdogan in power, Turkey extense her hand - he will visit Israel in a months time or so.

I see no other more natural ally than Israel for Turkey.

By the way : The "turks" are only about 20% turkish. The turkic DNA is no more than 20% now. The remaining 80% is largely hittite, sumerian and ancient israellite. Many turks know this - and find it enriching.

Kind regards
Kara

[Gilgamesh]

Shalom Kara!

I am very glad to read your post, I am delighted to find a person like you, a proud Turk and an proud Muslem who chooses to hold ideas such as yours.

I thank you for your hisorical comments, of which few were new to me, I am always pleased to learn more.

For as long as Turks such as yourself will have the upper hand in Turky, there will be peace harmony and prosperous collaboration between our nations. Once your beliefs would dominate Islam, there will be full peace in the ME, and maybe even a new global power, should I dare to imagion.

Alas, people such as yourself, kara, seem to be scares, and their voices weak over the terrible racket made by haters and Islamist fanatics, at least in our ears.

Jews and Arabs are related, togather with the Turks and other nations like the Persians, we will live in peace and with fruitfull cooperation once more, as do other nations close in race and geography in this world. Yet, I doubt this day will come in my life time, or the life time of my future children.

Unless a major mental revollution would sweep across our region, such revollution can only be carried out by muslems such as you, and most reasonably led by Turks, who already undergone similar revolution (by the great Mustafa Ka'mal Ata Turk).


I hope Turkey and Israel will keep up the good cooperation, which through my eyes, is a natural continuation of the historic friendship between our nations the last 1000 years. I also hope arabs will soon get to their senses, and stop their terrorist war (since they dont have the guts or ability to start a "real war") against Israel.

Le Hitra-ot.

Kara

I share your feelings very much, and wish there would be many people such as you among Turks and Muslems. You have my friendship and respect, same as were with many other of your Turkish countrymen who passed through this forum. As long as wisdom and honor will prevail within our nations, nothing would harm the friendship between our nations.

[kara]

Shalom Kara!

I am very glad to read your post, I am delighted to find a person like you, a proud Turk and an proud Muslem who chooses to hold ideas such as yours.

I thank you for your hisorical comments, of which few were new to me, I am always pleased to learn more.

For as long as Turks such as yourself will have the upper hand in Turky, there will be peace harmony and prosperous collaboration between our nations. Once your beliefs would dominate Islam, there will be full peace in the ME, and maybe even a new global power, should I dare to imagion.

Alas, people such as yourself, kara, seem to be scares, and their voices weak over the terrible racket made by haters and Islamist fanatics, at least in our ears.

Jews and Arabs are related, togather with the Turks and other nations like the Persians, we will live in peace and with fruitfull cooperation once more, as do other nations close in race and geography in this world. Yet, I doubt this day will come in my life time, or the life time of my future children.

Unless a major mental revollution would sweep across our region, such revollution can only be carried out by muslems such as you, and most reasonably led by Turks, who already undergone similar revolution (by the great Mustafa Ka'mal Ata Turk).



I share your feelings very much, and wish there would be many people such as you among Turks and Muslems. You have my friendship and respect, same as were with many other of your Turkish countrymen who passed through this forum. As long as wisdom and honor will prevail within our nations, nothing would harm the friendship between our nations.


Shalom Gilgamesh!

Thank you very much for you warm words. I sincerely believe that Turks and Israelis will continue to strengthen their bonds (this year alone business volume increased by 1.5 billion USD - and 400.000 Israelis visit Turkey every year).

You are indeed right about our relations - blood is thicker than water, and once we realize that, the peoples of the Middle East can start to prosper. We MUST put aside our differences, and find a common ground. Here is a litlle puzzle : If 250.000 jews came to Turkey in 1492, and that population grew by a meager 1% per annum, what would that be 500 years later? Well let me make it easy :-) They would become 36 mln. - and since Turks never percecuted Jews (not one single incident can be traced in history) where are thise population now? They are now the "Western Turkey Turks" :-) Intermarried and changed religion. We are indeed related.


When the two synagoes in Istanbul was bombed by Al-Qaeda, my mother cried. She said "who are these evil people?". But I was really moved, when TV called for people to give blood to the victims - and I too shed a tear at the funeral : All the victims coffins were draped in the Turkish flag, formed like the Star Of David. Now thats symbolism that has a deep meaning. Again... similarities... not differences.

Israel really has a hard job. I mean, being surrounded by populations, agitated by their leaders to slaughter every single jew is hardly anything any nation wants. I hope The Lord helps you, and gives you strength to endure these hardships. I sincerely believe, that there is light at the end of the tunnel - but feel for You since all the hardship in the Middle East rest on your shoulders. But as we say in Turkey "The hardship is given to him with the broades shoulders" :-)

However, once again, jews suffer because people do not understand them and choose hate above understanding. It is simply plain anti-semitism, and I quite frankly hate it more than the plague. The plague can be elliminated, but anti-semitism CONTINUES to show up here and there (take France for an example....).

I hope Turkey will NEVER fall into the hands of obscure politicians, and that the people of Turkey continue to show Israel the value of friendship. After all, at the end of the day, when we leave this world, we will answer for our bad deeds - and what better than to face (Him) with respect and a pure heart.

One write once wrote that "Fanatism, is then you double the effort but forget the goal of that effort". I think that is exactly what is happening in parts of the Middle East.


Le-Hitra-Ot
Kara

[Gilgamesh]

Shalom Kara!

I am moved with your soldirity and greatful for your support in our common cause to crush down Islamist fanatic terrorism.

Israel and Truky are standing on two different fronts against the same foe which is ignorance and Islamist facist blind hatered. We both dream of the social evolution of the Arabs so the whole region will become an exmple for peace, ecconomic boom and blooming friendship. It is a vision worth fighting for. This day must come.

I must tell you, that one of the moments made me most proud of my nation, was when Turky was calamited by the earthquate catastophe 1999, little Israel was among the first to send help, and (please correct me if I'm wrong) to send the largest, most experianced rescue missions to suffering Turky.

I was happey to see that among the terrible suffering and gut ranching tragedies of the earthquake, our orange hard hats of the IDF were working shoulder to shoulder with Turkish rescuers, operating various Israeli made rescue machinary, and operating a field hospital with the Jewish falg of Israel flapping on a mast. Our men, our flag, among the fallen rubble doing a mitzva, a holy commandment of helping tragedy stucken trukish brotherns. The feeling that we could make a difference, our capacity to help others on their hour of great pain. Then I felt very proud of my people.

http://www.israaid.org.il/idf_print3.asp
Israel's rescue mission to Turky (http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/8/Israeli%20Aid%20for%20Turkish%20Earthquake%20Victi ms)

[kara]

Shalom Gilgamesh!

Believe me - many turks noticed, that Israel - although small in land size - showed it had a big heart during the 1999 earthquake!

Arabs on the other hand - large in size - showed no signs of sorrow and certainly no signs of any help at all!

And when it all boils down, this is exactly the issue. Israel has no natural resources, but has huge ressources in terms of human compassion and human intellect... The opposite goes for the arab world...

To root out fanatical and fascistic tendencies in Islam, Turkey and Israel is the best alliance!

We will always support you, as we always have!

Le-Hitra-Ot
Kara