Israel risks losing the moral highground

[ThirdParty]

I am neither a Jew or Arab. But I am watching this conflict carefully because it has the potential to ignite the whole world.

Israel is at risk for gradually transforming itself into the monster it once abhored. The world once admired Israel-- the bravado demonstrated for example in the raid at Entebbe, the military prowess demonstrated in the Six Day War against Egypt, Syria and Jordan -- these were once applauded as testaments to the resolve of a persecuted people to ensure their own survival.

However now the manifestations of that same Israeli resolve increasingly appear to the world now as a purposeful and systematic oppression of another group... which at best borders on Apartheid, and at worst has frightening overtones of ethnic cleansing. The Israeli right wing, whether aligned with either Sharon, or Netanyahu's Lukid, has demonstrated that it's pretensions to peace have been false gestures designed to buy time until the Palestinian 'Right of Return' becomes irrelevant.

This irrelevancy will inevitably occur as Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza establish themselves and as the Palestinians-- by attrition -- simply no longer exist as a people. Sharon has recently publicly discussed the once unheard of topic of Palestinian "transference", ie. the physical removal of the entire Palestinian population out of the occupied territories, presumably to other Arab countries.

Media polls increasingly and disturbingly show a willingness of the Israeli public to consider Palestinian transference. This mirrors the German public opinion that allowed Nazi attrocities to occur.

The free world, indeed all peoples of conscience across the world, cannot and should not tolerate the threat to existence of an entire people. The Palestinians have the overwhelming support of the UN/ international community. The same way that the Jewish people, had the League of Nations full support in 1945-47.

[alexbmn]

the only times Jews occupied the moral high ground in the World's eyes, apparently, was when they were gassed in concentration camps. When they dare to defend themselves ooh well they are brutal aggressors.None ,none of the suicide bombing resulted in the kind of internation condemnations that Israel is the target of right now. A country must do anything to bring security to its civilians and in my opinion Israel has still been too soft.An overwhelmng total victory must be accmplished.

[Flame]

The people who hate Jews can't hate us more than they can... and I hate to say this.... but if they are trying to take us down again.... they will have to come with us this time.

The world has "lost respect" for Israel because of a very slick highly financed propaganda campaign brought to you by CNN - AOL/Time/Warner and all the other arab financed "news" orgs... and because of the oh so willing masses who feel cheated not to have a reason to loath Jews... allow themselves to believe the propaganda as truth. We really don't care what you think any more... the truth of what you think is just out in the open, again.

The EU the UN and all the other alphabet orgs are now calling for special meetings and creating all this drama over WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED 30 years ago.... this is a result of every nation on earth for not nipping the bud when it first poked up its ugly head. The meetings should have taken place 30 years ago. Terrosism should have been stomped out 30 years ago. The propaganda books that the arab children are raised on the the UN and US help to fund... is now flip floppiing back to Dr. Frankestin and Co.

I just don't hear anything from the Arab world saying they are actively going after terror orgs in their midst to help put out the raging islamic fires of hate.

Jew hate globally caused this... even though they point fingers at us for making them hate us???? This situation reminds me of when I used to get the crap knocked out of me and the perp was shouting for help with me in the corner unable to do anything.... then... guess who got in trouble? I looked angry... they took on the face of poor helpless me... sort of the same thing on a bigger scale.

[watcher]

Doesn't it seem strange when there are attacks upon Israel everyone is quiet and happy but when Israel responds to prevent further murderous aggression by these terrorists all of a sudden everyone is bad mouthing Israel stating Israel is a monster and perhaps ready to strap on bombs themselves and fly to Israel or think about flying into buildings of anyone who understands Israels plight with terrorism.

It doesn't seem too far fetched to imagine these supporters of terrorism to strap on the bombs or take aim at infants to support their cause of hatred because if you support terrorism you're no better than the terrorists themselves.

Take heed the side you choose... terrorism will falter, snipers will fall, all such wickedness will fade, and Israel will always remain. The unholy war will crumble at the foot of Israel. Truth and Love will overcome at the end, at the end Israel will Forever stand.

[sharonbn]

ThirdParty,

I am an Israeli Jew from the Left-wing.
I have great concern over the actions of Israel in the Palestinian territories. However, I would like to differentiate between the cause for the actions and the actions themselves.

I live in Tel Aviv and have family in Jerusalem. Every time I hear of another suicide bomber exploding in the streets of Jerusalem, I immediately phone my brother and parents to see if they're OK. When the attack occurs in Tel Aviv, they call me. Everyone in Israel behaves the same. Israelis nowadays live in constants fear where will the next bomb explode.

During the Passover holiday, the frequency of the terror attacks rose to two bomb attacks every day (not counting drive-by shootings, sniper shootings, Katyusha shelling, etc.) Arafat and the PA not only didn't do nothing to stop the attacks, they openly encouraged it. Recently discovered documents confirmed that Arafat is funding some of the terrorists groups. It has become clear to Israelis (and Jews around the world) that Arafat is not willing to stop the overwhelming wave of terror and hatred. In fact, the terror wave is part of a planned strategy of Arafat to provoke Israel into responding in such a way that will bring international condemnation. In other words, Arafat is willing to sacrifice the life of his own people for the sole purpose of scoring points in international public opinion. Under these circumstances, I feel Israel has the moral justification to enter PA territory for the purpose of decreasing the threat of terror.

Israel now understands that it can only rely upon its own force to defeat terror. Israeli army entered the PA territory in order to destroy the infrastructure of the terrorist groups. This includes the weapon storage houses, the workshops that manufacture the explosives, etc. Israel also seeks to seize or eliminate the heads of the terrorists groups in the same manner that US is pursuing Osama Bin-Laden.

Israelis, left and right, support the Israeli army. We all understand the reason for the latest incursion and we understand that there is absolutely no other way to defend our lives.

Now, in addition to what I stated above, I also believe that:

a) Over the course of history, The Palestinian people have suffered greatly as a result of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Some of the suffering was caused by Israel. This is a historical fact that has not changed as a result of the latest terror wave. IMO, the Palestinian claim for independence and safe haven is justified. But the Ends does not justify the Means. No cause, however moral, can justify blowing up civilian people celebrating Passover in a Hotel, or people sitting in a cafe, etc. Indeed, such actions can only tarnish the morality of the Palestinian cause.

b) The same motto (The Ends does not justify the Means) should apply to the Israeli actions. The terrorists are seeking shelter inside the civilian population. They even entered Christian churches and holy places. This places the Israeli army in an extremely delicate situation. I believe that Israel needs to conduct its war against terrorism with full force but also with the utmost care not cause unnecessary casualties in the civilian population. In some cases, the feelings of anger and vengeance have caused Israeli soldiers to commit disgraceful acts against Palestinian civilians. Sick people and pregnant women were deliberately delayed in road blockades, civilian property was treated with disrespect, etc. I condemn such actions and believe that the soldiers who committed them should be brought to justice, so such actions will not be repeated. However, calling these actions "ethnic cleansing" is unjustified.

One more thing,
ThirdParty, You must understand that media coverage of the conflict is not objective, to say the least. For starters, coverage of the suicide attacks begins only after the attack is over, all you see is the cafe ruins and ambulances (you never see the casualties). The camera is also stationed in a distant position from the action. In contrast, the coverage in the PA territories is done in real time, while the tanks and troops engage in war. Usually, the camera brings close-ups of some Palestinian child or old woman crying. This tactics serve to distant the viewer from the Israeli suffering, and personalize the Palestinian one.

You need to extract the facts from the propaganda and manipulation and judge for yourself. If you do that, I believe you will realize who is the heartless terrorist psychopath with total disregard for human compassion, and who is responding to such actions by force, while trying to preserve high moral standards.

[Flame]

sharonbn,

How is it you hold Israel responcible for palestinian problems when Israel had nothing to do with defining the borders in the first place and that Palestine was divided 20% for Jews and 80% Jordan during a 20 year process by the League of Nations?

How is Israel responcible for their suffering when Arafat has never spent any of the billions given to him for "his" people... the so-called "occupied" territories are in fact ... Arafats ghetto.

Prior to Jews returning enmass after the nazi terror... did you know that arafats uncle the mufti worked closely with hitler to prevent Israel from ever happening in the first place?

Are you even aware of the popoulatons of the area back then that todays propaganda claims as one million?

What about all these attacks before occupation was even an issue?

============
an 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.
\Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.
June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.
June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.
June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.
June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.
Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.
Mar 17, 1954- Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.
Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.
Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.
Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house. Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction toMishmar Hanegev.There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person waskilled and three others wounded.
Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.
Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.
Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.
Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.
Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.
Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.
Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.
Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.
Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.
Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.
Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.
May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.
May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.
June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.
Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.
Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.
Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.
Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.
Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.
May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.
Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.
Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.
Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.
Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.
Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.
Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.
Sept 6, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.
Sept 8, 1959 - Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.
Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.
Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO's Fatah faction.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.
July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.
Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.
Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor.Tracks led into Syria.
July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.
July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

[ThirdParty]

I was not taking sides, only expressing concern over the enormous escalation of violence. And examining the root causes.

Speaking of propaganda, I live in Canada and am fortunate to get balanced news that I believe to be objective. When I follow the US media, I find it leans relatively pro-Israel, to the point where I believe some objectivity is lost. So who is suffering from propaganda? Me or you?

Canada has long ago adopted a multicultural policy (we respect all cultures and encourage co-existence) in distinct contrast to the American 'melting pot' (all cultures homogenize to become a singular 'American' culture). Canadians are generally a tolerant lot. I count Jews and Arabs among my friends, neighbors, coworkers. I have heard both sides of almost every argument. I sympathize with Israel in a very fundamental way: a historically persecuted people who are trying to live amidst a hostile Arab world. But there are lines that have been crossed, and to say "who cares what the world thinks" is a dangerous position. Israel is not an isolationist nation, it SHOULD care deeply about what the world thinks... and to act as if the world's perception is irrelevant is naive and ultimately bad for Israel.

The suicide bombings truly make me sick, the loss of innocent life on either side is intolerable. However, my impression is that Israel ignores the simple fact that these murderous acts are in response to the oppression and humiliation heaped on the Palestinians.

There is CAUSALITY here which is being ignored. The 'cause' is Israeli oppression/ refusal to leave what everyone else considers to be legitimate Palestinian land; the 'effect' is suicide bombings. This then becomes the new 'cause'... for which the 'effect' is Israeli military action. But the justification for this military action is less defensible when the 'cause' for this effect (ie. suicide bombings) is in reality an 'effect' of a more fundamental 'cause' (Israeli occupation).

Increasingly, I believe the world is afraid that Israel and Palestine are slowly abandoning the notion that they may live alongside one another peacefully. The repercussions of today's actions will likely continue for generations. One cannot hammer down the will of these people... they feel desperate and have nothing to lose. This type of 'will' is not exclusive to the Palestinians, it is a HUMAN trait, it is a mechanism for survival shared by all people. And the reality is that it can never be completely destroyed.

So Israel in order to find lasting security must do one of two things:
Israel must achieve a NEGOTIATED peace in which these people are given some dignity, OR Israel will have to kill every last Palestinian to achieve peace. Since the latter is out of the question, the former is the only solution.

[L@mplighterM]

The world will ignite eventually its in the nature of the beast. When one reads about the start and considers the growth of Islamic Fundamentalism it will happen one day if left unattended.

Should civilization wait to deal with the fanatics until they have gained enough strength to spread their ideals and force it upon all humanity?
At this point there’s little risk of this escalating into another WW and considering the gain from eradicating as many terrorists as possible I say go for it.
Less than a handful of strong men would have stopped Hitler in his tracks.
Less than a handful of strong men could eliminate Islamic Fundamentalism.

Pacifying evil has never worked force is the only tool it understands.

The world has never admired Israel even in the 1960’s Israelis had a popular song about the world hating it (can’t recall the title). This little country has always had to spill its blood to survive standing strong against its enemies.

I’m not certain that there would not be overwhelming support in the world community for the Palestinians if the facts were known. Support from within Muslim states is overwhelming but these people are uneducated and their awareness of the situation is limited to what they have been told.

It’s has been my observation that it has been mostly Muslims demonstrating against the current conflict.

I have never heard the entire world community demand that Israel turn over ALL the land that was occupied in 1967. Eventually that may be subject to arbitration through third parties. Israel is not refusing to turn over land to the Palestinians and as a matter most of the occupied land has been returned.

Arafat’s all or nothing attitude and ordered terrorist acts has been a major obstacle in negotiations. Further the occupied territories are supposed to be demilitarized and that is certainly not the case this is a violation of UN resolutions and the Tenet plan.

[Flame]

Lamplighter... you live in C... do you agree with JPD's take on news being slanted favoribly toward Israel? Does CNN have a more gentle version for C?

[raven]

Thanks Alex B. Im in my "call a spade a spade mode" and when this happens sometimes it is best for me NOT to write anything. But YOU said all I would have.

Same for you Lamp.

Same for you A.

AGAIN: What part of NEVER AGAIN is the world not getting?????

We got on the trains before, NOT THIS TIME!!!!!!!

[raven]

A.. you do such good homework and come up with relevant facts. I have to copy what you just wrote and keep it. THAT is a FILE that a person SHOULD KEEP.

Dont you think that Ignorant person...should appologize to us? Should appologize to everyone. The STATE DEPARTMENT makes Foreign Policy and she would not pay attention to this elemental political fact. It is NOT a good idea (less than a good idea...how bout a REALLY BAD IDEA )to support people for President that you KNOW... ARE essentially...the Antisemetic ( for a century or more) State Dept. Unbelievable.

Incidently, read Hogland's Column in the Wash. Post and you will find out how come the US wants Israel OUT of Rahmallah. Read back some of my posts dayssss ago. I could tell something was UP. Sounded like wooooo...conspiracy....talking...IT ISNT. Read the reality. Hogland is plugged into State/Cia/Nsa/Defense...He knows what he is talking about. I already knew it by the way the US started to respond and exactly WHEN they started to freak. They started to freak when Israel came upon D O C U M E N T S. What other documents were laying around? Duh.

[Flame]

A little scratch below the surface for a look-see of Ted Turner and Colin Powel (Raven this just shows the creeps who say you're nuts... that they are fools.)

http://www.mideasttruth.org/Articles/tedturner.htm

http://www.e-venthorizon.net/conspiracy/shlomo_ben-ami.html


Should read this daily.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Weekly/Morocco/20020121.htm

[L@mplighterM]

I have Satellite TV and I have access to many stations. I get the news from Mexico, Canada, Britain and many other countries. To say that Canadian news isn’t biased is BS at the very least. Listen to Canadian stations on the web. CNN is CNN no special broadcast on Canadian TV or on Mexican TV.

[raven]

Lamp: Im jealous. All I have is CNN right now and Flame only has Broadcast. Dang.

Flame; Theres more. Sometimes these so called agencies use journalists to leak the information. They want the information out there themselves, before the information is splashed onto the American Public. It sort of cushions the first blow and outrage. Then they will get another journalist to "spin" that this was all done with all sorts of good intentions and keeping the best in mind. Get it? Look for all sorts of articles spinning why America has propped up all sorts of Terrorists there. They-- all of a sudden wont be Terrorists. They will DEFINE them as something else. Thats why I say "Who is in Charge of Definitions?" It makes a difference who gets to define who is who and what is what.

Watch for the patterns. These are the same patterns you can find in behavior of the same people in the 1930's for G-d sakes. Im not kidding. Exactly the same.

[raven]

SHE needs to crawl on her hands and knees and BEG forgiveness--from the people blown away in the Terrorists attack. I see she is avoiding the subject and keying now on Powell. As IF....

WE WARNED THIS person. You would think someone with a good brain could have stopped a minute, put her other dislikes away, and use the good brain G-d gave her to think. This wasnt an unknown group of people. Just would NOT listen or her Ego was more important.

NOT....that I can promise it would have been too much different with the other candidate. Have to be honest about it. Cause...THE STATE DEPARTMENT makes Foreign Policy. Could and would Gore have resisted the natural anti Israel pressure from the State Dept/CIA/NSA/DEFENSE better than Bush. At least Gore wouldnt have had a FATHER sitting in the WH contracticing his policy IN FRONT OF HIM, on the PHONE to a Saudi Prince. GEEZ.

You DO KNOW by now that Powell is Prince Bandars BEST FRIEND. They are REALLY, really really....best friends. Do you know that we are quietly pulling OUT of Saudi Arabia. OUR BEST BUDDIES in the Mid EAST? They threw us out and to save face we are pretending we WANT to go somewhere else.

People think we forgot about Turner. We didnt. As for Amapour. Right on the money and I think that there is even more to her than meets the eye. Years from now SEE if I am not right. Betcha. I just know it. Should have seen her last week before Bush called for the pull out. She was shaking with Fury at Israel. She could hardly get the report out of her antisemetic mouth. YES...she IS.

[L@mplighterM]

Jealous how about when I’m up on a ladder brushing the snow of the dishes?
At the height I had around 600+ stations with local news in every State NBC, ABC, FOX, etc. The thing is that I rarely watch TV these days I have lost interest.
Now I spend most of my spare time surfing and listening to the various radio stations on the web. www.moreover.com is a good site because it has links to the news from many countries in the world.
BBC from Great Britain has some of the most anti-Israel reporting I’ve ever seen in my life.
At some point it has to stop because anti-Semitism is on the rise. I find it strange that this should be the case. One would expect that the hate crimes directed at anything that looked like Muslim after 9/11 would continue escalating. Obviously that’s not the case. Odd !!!!

My wife told me that a synagogue library was torched in Saskatoon, Canada a day or two ago. Of course similar anti Semitic (shootings) incidents are beginning to occur more frequently in France and is most likely due to the large Muslim population.

In all honesty it seems reminiscent of pre war Germany with Hitler’s brown shirts and should be a cause of concern.


Link to synagogue fire bombing.

http://www.canada.com/saskatoon/story.asp?id=%7B55750533-834A-49E0-B585-E3D88C70B5AC%7D

[raven]

For the climbing and showeling off snow...Im definately not jealous.

Ill try the link you gave me. At some point I had to turn off Talk Radio. It became antisemetic Radio in my town. In fact it ruined talk radio. Now we have only Sports and Financial left for the most part--locally.

As for the antisemetic incidences...we know that this has been on the rise for quite a while now. It is becomming reminiscent of before the war. And it is troubling that it is "no never mind" to the rest of the world...hardly makes the news...and in fact IF something like this makes the news, it is linked to any incident in the ME and the victim becomes the trasheee...ie, it our own fault cause we are "oppressing and or occupying" the poor Pals.

You have noticed that there are never ending calls for not doing ANYTHING to make Muslim uncomfortable, but not a peep from the Pres on down about the rise in Antisemetism. This is something to note. Extroidinary double standard.

We also enourage each other NOT to talk about antisemetism. This is wrong. Its a deniel of the facts. Its something that the German Jews did also. It was a mistake. I promised myself that I would NEVER make that mistake no matter who rediculed me for it or how uncomfortable it made my own or others. I would NOT keep quiet. It is a mistake to keep quiet. It is a mistake keep sounding above it all and reasonable when it that behavior does not fit the situation.

[raven]

Lamp: I just saved the news link you gave me. Will see what it is all about tomorrow. Thanks.

[L@mplighterM]

Can you imagine if the European Jewry would’ve had banded together and fought back hard after Crystal Night? Instead they were good little boys and girls keeping a low profile hoping that Herr Hitler wouldn’t notice them. The devil could have been destroyed before he grew into an enormous monster.

It’s the same today with the Islamic terrorist nations know who they are. They know now and they knew 10 years ago that these people presented a terrible danger yet they elected to do nothing. Now it’s becoming an enormous problem and the US wants to selectively hunt them down. But its not an all gloves off type of a hunt because for some reason or other Bush is willing to turn a blind eye towards the evil that dwells in the West Bank.

[Flame]

We just need a couple more minor terror attacks to happen in the US to refresh peoples memory... its as if 911 was a scary movie from last year.

During the month after that... all we got here was a flood of shows about how islam is a religion of peace and that only a handful are terrorists and they aren't really true muslims.... even oprah did love-fest islam 101. I heard from Christians that they had islam honchos visist the churches to explain how islam is really like christianity and judaism.

[ThirdParty]

Flame, L@mplighterM,

Canadians get the same CNN as the States. I was referring to CBC Newshour, and other Canadian produced news, The Globe and Mail and The National Post, which seem relatively unbiased atleast in their presentation, coverage and editorial. Although the intensification of the West Bank offensive has stirred recent editorial sympathy for the Palestinians, the editorials still qualify their calls for Israeli withdrawl with warnings that the suicide bombings must also stop.

Since there are fewer Canadian foreign correspondents we still get most of our international news from Reuters, Assoc. Press, CNN etc. I could not comment if the coverage is unbiased or not (how would I know) but I don't believe that journalistic integrity and journalistic competition are both so uniformly low that a reasonable picture of the truth cannot inevitably emerge from such varied sources. Different spins may emerge, but no spin is required to enhance the images of helicopter gunships firing missiles at residences in refugee camps, right?


Regarding the list produced by Flame recounting the "terrorist" attacks against innocent Israelis, there exists a similar list of "military" attacks against innocent Palestinians. As was the dilemma at the Arab Summit, the definition of "terrorist" is ambiguous in that there may be no difference between a politically motivated attack against innocent civilians by "terrorists", and the same type of attack against innocent civilians by the military.

If such an attack is used by the military against a civilian population punitively as retaliation, or to discourage intafadah, or to break will, or to systematically destroy roads, institutions and infrastructure, how then does this differ from terrorism?

Not to diminish Israel’s suffering, but the reality is that the Palestinian list is atleast as brutal, undeniably longer, and involves the taking of more lives. However the production of such a list by either side during such a sensitive and critical time is arguably inflammatory.

Although these lists have value (honoring the memory of victims, reminding us that such things cannot be allowed to happen again, etc. ) in reality these lists are produced in preparation for war, never as a prelude to peace. Imagine a husband and wife maintaining such lists, with dates and details, of each transgression, each conflict. A guaranteed road to divorce, not to peace.

In times of war the respective populations undergo psychological preparation by doing two things: (1) recounting the transgressions made against them, (2) demonizing the enemy: making the enemy less than human makes the enemy easier to kill and makes even the commission of atrocities justifiable.

[JustPat]

In considering the current conflict an obvious question arises that I have not heard addressed. If the "Arab World" is so supportive of the Palestinian cause, why has no place been offered to them for a homeland other than that of Areas A/B? Why not carve a hunk out of Iraq or Jordan or Syria or let them have the Sinai Penninsula. Surely, if a land of their own is truly the issue, give them land and peace will surely come ... right? But, the whole world knows that this is not about land and never has been. This is about Arafat's long standing opposition to Israel's right to exist. Since the days of Isaac and Ishmael has it ever been different.

Personally, I am appalled at the US and International Community's willingness to support the Palestinian Agenda. What arrogance to try and dictate how Israel should use its sovreignty. Why not use that power and influence to put the Arab world in perspective. No, rather than stand for justice, the politicos will let the bully be viewed as the victim and paint Israel with the brush of brutality.

Though I despise the violence, I think we are far beyond a negotiated solution. If all Paletinians were willing to live as many have chosen, submitted to the Israeli Government that has treated them well, peace could come to these neighbors. As long as there is an Arafat, a Saddam, or any other anti-Israel bigot who can sling a rock, fire a rifle, or bomb innocents to bits, this conflict will have but one solution, the discovery and elimination of those who follow the terrorist's path.

Would to God that Saul and those who have led Israel through the years would have followed G-d's instructions to the full and saved Israel from such pain.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by ThirdParty
However now the manifestations of that same Israeli resolve increasingly appear to the world now as a purposeful and systematic oppression of another group... which at best borders on Apartheid, and at worst has frightening overtones of ethnic cleansing.
I understand that you're not Jewish or Arab, but what you're saying here is nothing but repeating typical Arab or neo-Nazi lies that have nothing to do reality.

It looks like you are completely ignoring that Israel is not at all oppressing the Palestinians. Rather, Israel is reacting to ongoing vicious terrorist attacks aimed specifically at mass murdering Israeli citizens. That is not oppression -- it is survival.

The freedom that the Palestinians fight for is not a political freedom, nor that of self-determination. These freedoms were already offered to them by Israel at the negotiating table by several Israeli governments, both Left-wing and Right-wing in the past 50 years.

Rather, the Palestinians, backed by Iran and Saudi Arabia are fighting for the "freedom" to mass murder all Israelis.

Clearly, that freedom to ethically cleanse the land of Israel from its Jewish inhabitants will never be granted by Israel, and so the fight will continue until the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure is destroyed and the Palestinains start understanding that they will never be able to perpetrate the Jihad-genocide that their leaders have been promising them.

* * *

And another point in your post that looks like it needs some basic correction is that you seem to think that the Palestinians specifically targeting innocent Israeli civilians is morally equivalent to Israel trying its best NOT to harm palestinian civilians, but mistakenly hitting a few.

These two are not at all equivalent, although all loss of innocent life is of course tragic, but this kind of tragedy is exactly part of the overall national tragedy the Palestinian terrorist leadership has brought upon its people.

In any evet, you cannot hide behind some imaginery blame game, thinking that you can equate someone killed by mistake by Israel, to someone killed by being targeted deliberately by Palestinian terrorists. The two cases are not the same at all, and this obvious and common-sense message is what is lacking from most of the media coverage you are apparently seeing.

[dean]

Just to say that I have no Israeli/jewish/Palestinian/Arab/Muslim connections. Am just a Brit who has been following this situation for some time.
If anybody has anything sensible to say to me, then feel free, I have tried to avoid the spin in this country via BBC, Sky and my CNN access and the paper press. I have looked at various websites, Israeli and Palestinian. I have also done some research into the history of the area, I am a politics and history graduate but it is something that I did not touch on at university.
Anyway, the point is that I have decided to boycott Israeli goods, I am also going to send a donation, probably via save the children for the palestinians.
If anybody wants to give me a different angle on anything then feel free, it would be nice to get some feed back from Israelis / Palestinians who are directly effected by this, so sensible replies please, and if anybody to engage in e mail contact thats great. I am also loking for a sensible Palestinian forum if anybody can help.
Thanks and hope everything turns out safe and well.
Dean.

[Ezra]

Hi Deano,

First, let me introduce myself. I'm an American Christian who lived for over 20 years in Egypt studying Islamic Culture. I started posting in the forum a series of articles about Jihad and hatred in Islam. You will find them in the Culture/Religious section in the forum. You will notice also some replies from Muslim persons, which will verify that what I wrote is actually true, accurate, and authenticated. This will give you a good appreciation of the religious motivation of Arabs.

Before we start any discussing, I have 2 questions for you,

1) Comparing the huge military abilities of Israel and the naïve military ability of the Palestinians, why do you think the Israeli Army failed to enter the town of Jenin till now?

2) Comparing the huge military abilities of Israel and the naïve ability of the Palestinians, why is the number of civilian Palestinian causalities in the past 3 years from unintended Israeli military operation equal the number of the Israeli causalities in 1 week from the Palestinian suicide bombers?

[dean]

1. The argument I have heard for this is due too the accumulation of suicide bombings, correct ?

2. Your question makes no sense to me. Intended/unintended. No military operation is unintended. Taking some figures from the BBC I see Approx 300 dead Israelis and 1300 dead Palestinians. I don't think it makes any difference tothem wheteher it was intended or not.

Am new to this forum, am going to check it every day for the foreseable future and i shall check the cultural/religious section tomorrow

[raven]

I think that instituting and participating in a boycott makes one a combatant in the situation and therefore, Jews should elect to limit their personal services to those that are NOT combatants. Id fight fire with fire.

We already DID the moral highground to death. It doesnt matter as you can see.

I say: Do NOT provide any service to people that want to help facilitate YOUR DEATH. Thats what it comes down to.

We can START with that. Then we can boycott those that boycott us.

Lamp: You notice IM not a good girl. I saw and noted what they did and didnt do in Germany and I promised I would NOT do the same.

[L@mplighterM]

CanWest owns The National Post along with 134 other daily and weekly newspapers and a TV station. As you say its the National Post isn't biased .. That's due to the demand placed on the publishers to present actual facts.


You write that no spin is required for a picture of a helicopter gunship firing on a house. At that point you ceased to be a third party and crossed over to the camp supporting the terrorists. There?s a story that goes with every picture and you have no idea what is happening inside the house.

You are unwilling or lack the ability to distinguish between intent and collateral damage.

You have no idea what constitutes a terrorist.

Israelis have been convicted of crimes committed against Palestinians.

Give me a list of individuals in the West Bank that has been tried for crimes committed against Israelis.

[Flame]

Lamp... I can't remeber how long ago this was but a few years back Israel was forced to let 300 of the most dangerous hamas etal guys out of Israeli prison. Why Israel did it I can only guess. Some sort of trade... your 1 guy for 300 hamas

[sharonbn]

dean

Welcome to the forum.
I am a 34 y.o Jewish Tel Aviv resident.
You say you have conducted intensive research of the history and present situation of the Arab Israeli conflict, and arrived at the conclusion that the Palestinians are “right” and the Israelis are “wrong” or “immoral”. Your conclusion is so string that you decided to take strong actions against Israel.

I would like to know what lead you to this conclusion.

I will not claim to be objective. However, as a member of the left-wing in the Israeli political map, I do see myself as a reasonable person. I can tell you I have some strong personal criticism on the actions of the Israeli government and Israeli army. I believe that in some cases, anger and vengeful feelings took precedence over reason in Israeli reactions to suicide bombings. But all this does not change the global picture: The democratic sovereign state of Israel is defending itself against the most vicious and brutal terrorist groups who are willing to sacrifice their own people for the purpose of manipulating international public opinion.

Let me tell you my POV of the history of the recent violent eruption:

In July 2000, Israeli PM, Ehud Barak, and PA leader, Yasser Arafat met with American President, Bill Clinton in the Camp David summit. The summit was supposed to be, in Israeli eyes, the final stage of the peace talks that started 7 years earlier, in Oslo.
The summit lasted for two weeks.

In the summit, the most hardcore issues that pertain to the heart of the conflict were discussed for the first time: Division of Jerusalem, The borders of the future Palestinian state, Israel assurance for security, and the problem of the Palestinian refugees. These issues, to quote Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, are "truly complicated, and this is a debate and a dispute that has lasted hundreds of years, and it is literally of biblical proportions."

Israel, started the discussions by presenting its proposal for the borders. It included 75% of the occupied territories. (this was already presented to the Palestinians in Sweden). This is was the starting position of Israel. The Palestinian’s starting point was full Israeli withdrawal to pre-1967 lines (“green line”) and return of all refugees to their lands. Like all negotiations, Israel assumed that the final solution would be somewhere in the middle. During the summit, Israel has changed its offer several times. The last Israeli offer was 91% of the occupied territories + 1% to be given from the green-line area – total of 92%. The Palestinian official stand did not move 1% the entire summit.
What stroke the Israeli delegation was that the Palestinians only responded to Israeli offers and have never presented their own map, listing their “Red lines” and giving an indication on what they are willing to negotiate.

One of the biggest difference was in the solution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian demand was for the return of 1.5 million to green-line Israel over a 10 year period. Israel agreed to accept total of 10,000 refugees.

On the last day of the summit, president Clinton brought forward a proposal to divide the city of Jerusalem and to establish a separate Palestinian city of Al-Quds, to be carved out of a bit of the Old City and a few predominantly Arab suburban neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, plus Arafat’s own "President’s Office" in the Old City. Barak grudgingly accepted the proposal: “If Arafat agrees to discuss this – I am willing too”.
This was the first time since 1967 that an Israeli prime minister was willing to consider, albeit conditionally, specific proposals for re-dividing Jerusalem. PM Ehud Barak was elected in May 1999, having committed himself to keeping Jerusalem united. Barak's violation of these sort of commitments later led to the collapse of his parliamentary coalition and his standing in Israeli public opinion.
Arafat turned down the offer.

The summit ended on July 25, without an agreement being reached. At its conclusion, a Trilateral Statement was issued defining the agreed principles to guide future negotiations. Point two in the statement reads as follows:
The two sides commit themselves to continue their efforts to conclude an agreement on all permanent status issues as soon as possible.

After the failure of the summit, president Clinton expressed his disappointment in Arafat, saying Arafat “bathed in the victimhood of his people and was unwilling to step forward and creatively solve the conflict”.

Perhaps it was naive of the parties to believe that such complicated and controversial disputes can be solved in a two-week convention. However, Israel prepared to continue the talks in various channels.

The results of the Camp David summit posed a serious problem for Yasser Arafat. Barak's conditional acceptance of the Clinton proposals juxtaposed against Arafat's total rejection of the American plan created a strong impression in the international community that the Palestinians were responsible for the failure of Camp David. As a result, as Arafat, after Camp David, sought international support for a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state, he discovered that the major powers were not prepared to assure him that they would recognize a unilaterally declared Palestinian state. Realizing the need to reverse international sympathy away from Israel, back to the Palestinians, the PA began preparing for a renewal of violence against Israel, which would put supposedly unarmed civilians against armed Israeli soldiers - like the Intifada of 1987.

This is the historical course of events that led to the eruption of violence in Sept. 2000 and continues to this day.

What do you say, dean?

[raven]

REALITY is stareing Jews in the face in Israel and around the world. Much as we would like to hold the highest Moral Values and Behaviors ...much of us realize that ...YOU HAVE TO BE THERE...ALIVE...to have any moral values and behaviors. Thats a prerequisite.

We tried..From giving back the Sinai to standing there and letting Scuds reign down...to offereing heretofore unimaginable parts of Israel TO the so called Palistinians. We tried to please the world and to please the Arab World. They never intended to make any kind of long term peace. We wished they offered that. They played upon our inbred morality and humane..ness and love of issues...but in the END...we have had to face up to the truth.

We will do the best we can to be the best we ARE...but we have to BE THERE. Thats a DUH..

[raven]

Lamp: You are right. Certain images "push buttons" and are in themselves the SPIN. They can count on the reaction that they intend to induce.

Can you say? Vietnam? and all the reactions to it with what images that parallel that experience? Shoot.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by dean
1. The argument I have heard for this is due too the accumulation of suicide bombings, correct ?

2. Your question makes no sense to me. Intended/unintended. No military operation is unintended. Taking some figures from the BBC I see Approx 300 dead Israelis and 1300 dead Palestinians. I don't think it makes any difference tothem wheteher it was intended or not.

Am new to this forum, am going to check it every day for the foreseable future and i shall check the cultural/religious section tomorrow

I just wanted you to appreciate how civilized is Israel compared to its neighbors. In spite of the huge military abilities of Israel, it still respect the Palestinian human being, otherwise it would have erased Palestine from the face of earth long time ago.

Dean.. Compare this behavior with suicide bombing the civilian in the heart of the city. Can you tell me why haven't we ever heard about attack on Israeli military unit from Palestinians? Why do they always attack civilians?

And before anything.. I'm so interested in hearing your opinion about suicide bombing in the first place!

[JustPat]

To those who are residents of Israel,
how is the bullying of your government by the US being received?

I do not understand the arrogance that implies one "superior" nation may impose its will on its allies. Israel has been a partner of great honor to the US and yet the US seems to lack the resolve to stand by its friend in times of trial. Oh for a leader like Jonathan of old to rise up and set the enemy to flight.

[dean]

I shall e mail a reply to you.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by JustPat
To those who are residents of Israel,
how is the bullying of your government by the US being received?

With disgust but no surprise.

[dean]

Don't take it personally, but "god bless America" really makes me cringe, huh huh huh.

The death toll. Refusal to allow in EU officials, firing CS gas and rubber bullets at journalists, refusing to allow the red crescent through, dead Italian priest, a dead church janitor, oh and of course the peace worker from my City of Bristol who got shot last week. On the same day he got shot his father here died, he wanted to fly home but the Israelis authorities wouldnt let him out. Civilised, ummmmm, if we had done that in Ireland I wonder what the reaction would have been.
Suicide bombers, maybe it's hard for them too target military targets, maybe they feel that civilian targets are acceptable because of jewish settlers, maybe you have finally broken them and they don't care anymore.
Sharon - civilised - 2000 dead refugees - 1986 ?

Am at work and have to do some, am going to post an e_mail to sharonbn as per his/her previous reply, i shall then post it here or if you email me i can send it too you.

Thanks Deano

[dean]

What a strange view of the world some of you have.

The reason you get away with constantly breaking UN resolutions is because of the Jewish Lobby in America. Finally because they have decided that they are going to bomb Iraq they have too try and get many of the Arab states on side so they are trying to put their foot down. No doubt once they have carpet bombed a few thousand people they will allow Sharon to carry on his merry way.

How can you possibly complain about America, I find that extraordinary, they give you $65 million or billion of aid each year, allow you to do as mentioned above and you complain.
Bizarre.

What happens when other countries continually flout UN resolutions? Do the Americans continue to aid them ?

Also, why are Israel participating in the European cup (football), not quite as important but why ?

[Ezra]

Don't take it personally, but "god bless America" really makes me cringe, huh huh huh.

No comment. At least as a respect to our "maid"..


The death toll.

Less than the victims of the suicide bombers. Read Al-Jezeera (which is an Islamic Arabic station) and see what Israel do exactly. It calls for every one between 15-50 to gather in the big yard in the town along with their Ids and this will assure their safety. It then compares these IDs with the names of the required suicide bombers. It announces through loud speakers that if anyone refused to come out he is warned that he might be killed. What else do you want it to do? Beg them?


Refusal to allow in EU officials,

And what the f*** EU official want to do? Ha? Where were the EU officials when babies were killed in Tel Aviv and Natanya by suicide bombing..


firing CS gas and rubber bullets at journalists,

Because journalists were ordered out of the area. Because if they didn't get out and were shot by palastinians, they will blame Israel for not protecting them!


refusing to allow the red crescent through,

Because the last time they did, the ambulances were used to let some required suicide bombers masterminds to escape in it. Before you blame Israel, blame those who used the ambulances to do that.


dead Italian priest,

What was he doing in a military area? Was he shot in purpose?


a dead church janitor,

What was he doing in a military area? Was he shot in purpose?


oh and of course the peace worker from my City of Bristol who got shot last week.

What was he doing in a military area? Was he shot in purpose?


On the same day he got shot his father here died, he wanted to fly home but the Israelis authorities wouldnt let him out. Civilised, ummmmm, if we had done that in Ireland I wonder what the reaction would have been.

What are you comparing exactly?! So funny!


Suicide bombers, maybe it's hard for them too target military targets, maybe they feel that civilian targets are acceptable because of jewish settlers, maybe you have finally broken them and they don't care anymore.

WHAT A CRAB EXCUSE!


Sharon - civilised - 2000 dead refugees - 1986

Sorry but go and read history more carefully.. It was Lebanesse forces which got into Sabra & Shatila..


Am at work and have to do some, am going to post an e_mail to sharonbn as per his/her previous reply, i shall then post it here or if you email me i can send it too you.

I don't send any messages personally.

[Ezra]

For you Dean,

PLO Gunmen Fired at Red Crescent Ambulances

(IsraelNN.com) In Jenin, where the most intense fighting continues at this time, PLO gunmen fired at Red Crescent ambulances attempting to remove injured or dead Arab militiamen from the battlefront.

IDF sources have said that PLO leaders want the bodies of as many injured and dead militiamen as possible to remain in the field, in order to create the impression that the IDF is carrying out a massacre in the city.


Source:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=21457

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
Don't take it personally, but "god bless America" really makes me cringe, huh huh huh.[quote]

It does? Good!

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

[quote]The death toll.

Yes. 400+ Israelis dead. Thousands wounded. All the fruit of the Oslo accords.


Refusal to allow in EU officials

Amen. Biggest anti-semites I've ever seen.


firing CS gas and rubber bullets at journalists

It was stun grenades. No one was injured. The press ignored IDF soldiers warnings that they were not to proceed. They ignored the warnings and made a run for Arafat's HQ. That's what you get for disobeying orders in a war zone.


refusing to allow the red crescent through,

Too many explosive belts under the wounded:

http://honestreporting.com/critiques/2002/27_ambulance.asp

You might find this interesting, though:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=21457


dead Italian priest

Palestinian fabrication. The Vatican's Israeli Ambassador already apologized for being similarly gullable:

http://honestreporting.com/critiques/2002/28_biglie.asp


a dead church janitor

That's a new one. Got any links?


oh and of course the peace worker from my City of Bristol who got shot last week.

Was he in a war zone? What was he doing there? Did he break a curfue? Tell us.


On the same day he got shot his father here died, he wanted to fly home but the Israelis authorities wouldnt let him out. Civilised,[quote]

War is hell. Why didn't they let him out? If he was shot, was he wounded? In a hospital somewhere?

[quote]Suicide bombers, maybe it's hard for them too target military targets

Excuse #1


maybe they feel that civilian targets are acceptable because of jewish settlers

Excuse #2


maybe you have finally broken them and they don't care anymore.

Excuse #3

What broke them during Rabin's and Peres' tenures, just after the Oslo Accords went into effect and Israel withdrew from areas A and B, as agreed?

Got any more excuses?

[dean]

Looking at some of the threads and rubbish on this site its hardly surprising why anti-semitism is on the rise, a lot of you seem to be on a completely different planet to the rest us.
The EU - anti semitic, ha, everytime anybody says anything about Israel they get accused of being anti-semitic, the EU, the BBC, me, I don't know why this is, maybe its holocaust related, maybe it's paranoia that relates to that or to your geo-politcal position.
Clearly most of the civilised countries on the planet are in the wrong when they start threatening sanctions, when the BBC shows the effects of suicide bomber on a family and the wreck that is left, and shows the left overs of a street that the Isaraelis army has left and the palestinian family whos house is riddled with bullets, the new fridge, the babys cot, maybe their being any semitic for showing a balanced view. Funny one minute we are all anti-muslim, next were all anti-semitic, just like that.
Maybe it's just a case of people seeing Israels constantly flouting UN resolutions and getting away with it, whilst sanctions are taken against anybody else. Maybe that winds people up. Maybe the UK has been the target for bombers in the past and we had to abide by certain international laws in our handling of the situation, whilst certain people in our government would have liked not too.
Give the anti-semitism thing a rest please, its accusations of that that are likely to result in it.

[Ezra]

Originally posted by dean
Looking at some of the threads and rubbish on this site its hardly surprising why anti-semitism is on the rise, a lot of you seem to be on a completely different planet to the rest us.


And now I knew who's living on a different planet! Read this:

(CNN) -- A new poll released Monday finds that more than half of Americans view the Israeli military incursions against Palestinian locations as "legitimate acts of war," and an overwhelming majority approve of the tough approach President Bush has taken with both sides in the Mideast conflict.
...............
Seven of 10 of Americans polled described the Palestinian suicide bombings as terrorism and nearly six in 10 of those polled said Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is an enemy of the United States.

Sympathy for Israel has gone up significantly since early March, but most Americans said the United States should not take sides in the conflict and fewer than half of Americans believe the Israeli actions in the past few days are justified, with 39 percent describing those actions as terrorism.
....................

Source :
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/04/08/mideast.poll/index.html


Have fun EU guys with Arabs and muslims! Just don't come crying to uncle Sam when you are hit by muslim suicide bombers!

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
[B]Looking at some of the threads and rubbish on this site[b]

You can dish it out but you can't take it. Is that what you mean.

Try responding to the specific counterpoints of your post.


its hardly surprising why anti-semitism is on the rise

No. Ignorance, misinformation and the willingness to so easily absorb it is mostly the cause.


a lot of you seem to be on a completely different planet to the rest us.

I'm on the battle line. Indeed it's almost like a different planet.


The EU - anti semitic, ha, everytime anybody says anything about Israel they get accused of being anti-semitic, the EU, the BBC, me, I don't know why this is, maybe its holocaust related,

Yes. Experience counts, unfortunately.


Clearly most of the civilised countries on the planet are in the wrong when they start threatening sanctions, when the BBC shows the effects of suicide bomber on a family and the wreck that is left, and shows the left overs of a street that the Isaraelis army has left and the palestinian family whos house is riddled with bullets,

Why was the house riddled with bullets? Were they in a house-to-house search in a dense urban area, with booby-trapped houses or terrorists with automatic weapons, grenades and RPGs often waiting inside.

Thank you for enlightening us on BBCs fairhanded coverage. I declare the BBC the winner (http://www.honestreporting.com/Awards/award2001.asp#bbc)!


Maybe it's just a case of people seeing Israels constantly flouting UN resolutions and getting away with it,

This is the same UN, run by an almost Moslem majority we're talking about, right? You know, the UN with Syria on the security council, right? The UN that said "Zionism is Racism", right? The UN that was so reliable in 1967 that when Egypt said "jump" they jumped and packed out of here to allow the Arab armies to fully mobilize on all of Israel's borders? The UN that may have been able to help our 3 soldiers kidnapped last year on the Lebanese border or maybe they were even in collusion with them?

Oh. Silly me. My paranoia is showing.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem
This is the same UN.......

How could I forget the sham called the UN Conference Against Racism in Durban last year?

And BTW, Mary Robinson still isn't a Jew, even if she said it once.

[dean]

Not sure how too highlight the previous comments.

"I can dish it out but not take it".

Maybe you should appreciate this effort that as a run of the mill Brit I have taken the time to try to learn more about the subject, too search out this forum, register, read, write, etc. maybe i should sit and watch TV. I am a guest guest so a bit of respect please.

"anti-semitism"

As prev stated, not accepting EU reps, your government spokesmen come across as incredibly arrogant and beyond international law, that breeds resentent. Resentment - fear - racism.

"different planet"

Ref international law and obligations, maybe they don't apply to anybody else.

"house riddled with bullets"

Maybe some members of the israeli army just like to wreak destruction when they can get away with it

Mary Robinson is stepping down i believe.

As for American public opinion, after Sept 11th just about anything to do with Muslims is going to provoke an anti, in the wrong opinion is'nt. The best survey of Americans is that by Harvard Uni, 25% of Americans don't know where Canada is.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
I am a guest so a bit of respect please.

But it's OK for you to insult many here by saying "Looking at some of the threads and rubbish on this site its hardly surprising why anti-semitism is on the rise, a lot of you seem to be on a completely different planet to the rest us.

My comment was no less disrepctful, IMO.



As prev stated, not accepting EU reps, your government spokesmen come across as incredibly arrogant

We find the EU even more arrogant. Name one practical thing the EU done to help prevent the terrorism that Israel has been afflicted with in the last 9 or so years? What sanctions or threats have they made against the PA after all that we've been through?

Please, call us back when you find an honest broker, which the EU never has been.


and beyond international law

Which international law are you referring to? Can you be specific?


"house riddled with bullets"

Maybe some members of the israeli army just like to wreak destruction when they can get away with it

Is that "maybe" as in "I really don't know and I've decided to guess to the detriment of Israel for no obvious reason"?



The best survey of Americans is that by Harvard Uni, 25% of Americans don't know where Canada is.

How silly! It's north of Antartica! :D

[Elena]

Have fun EU guys with Arabs and muslims! Just don't come crying to uncle Sam when you are hit by muslim suicide bombers!

The EU people don´t support terrorism, but we understand that all people have the same rights. Israel has the right to exist in peace and without suicide killers and The palestinians has the right to goverb theirselves without Israeli impositions.

and we? the europeans
We have the right to express our free opinion, although we can be wrong.


What was he doing in a military area? Was he shot in purpose?

Why the Israel army created a military area where a lot of innocent people live? Israel can search the terrorists, but not is correct send to the world the message that all the palestinians are terrorist and irreconcilable enemies of Israel, because isn´t true.

They are irreconcilable enemies of the unjust politicys of the succesive goverment of Israel that only in 1993 intend a shy peace process.

The hate not only can be created by the killing of innocent people. In Palestina a deep hate was created by a eternal situation of injustice during decades of dailys humilliations by the goverment and the army of Israel. Because the goverment of Israel ever thinks that the Palestinians has´t right to live in the land in which they born.

[sharonbn]

dean,

Maybe you should appreciate this effort that as a run of the mill Brit I have taken the time to try to learn more about the subject, too search out this forum, register, read, write, etc. maybe i should sit and watch TV. I am a guest guest so a bit of respect please
Considering your response to my post #30 (“saw how long it was and have left it, I think I will send you my thoughts without reading it first of all”) and reading your postings (yes, I do bother to read them), it seems to me you fit perfectly in the rubbish category.

Looking at some of the threads and rubbish on this site its hardly surprising why anti-semitism is on the rise
[...]
The EU - anti semitic, ha, everytime anybody says anything about Israel they get accused of being anti-semitic
So is anti-semitism on the rise or not?
I don’t understand how can anyone turn a blind eye on recent events in France and Belgium (synagogues torched, drive-by shootings, windows of Jewish owned shops smashed, etc.) or is this not textbook anti-semitism?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Elena
Why the Israel army created a military area where a lot of innocent people live? Israel can search the terrorists, but not is correct send to the world the message that all the palestinians are terrorist and irreconcilable enemies of Israel, because isn´t true.

Because simply suicide bombing masterminds are hidden there!

Oooppss… I'm sorry.. Europeans people don't consider suicide bombing commercial Malls in the heart of Tel Aviv a bad thing!

[sharonbn]

Originally posted by Elena


They are irreconcilable enemies of the unjust politicys of the succesive goverment of Israel that only in 1993 intend a shy peace process.


Elena,
I would like to refer you to my post #30 (http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?postid=3834#post3834) on this thread, on which I detail the process and results of the 2000 Camp David summit. You may find it enlightening.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Elena
The EU people don´t support terrorism, but we understand that all people have the same rights. Israel has the right to exist in peace and without suicide killers and The palestinians has the right to goverb theirselves without Israeli impositions.

So then why did the EU do absolutely nothing in all the years since the Oslo Accords, where terrorism here was on the rise without even a single Israeli tank entering PA controled areas?



and we? the europeans
We have the right to express our free opinion, although we can be wrong.

No denying either one of those points. :D


Why the Israel army created a military area where a lot of innocent people live? Israel can search the terrorists, but not is correct send to the world the message that all the palestinians are terrorist and irreconcilable enemies of Israel, because isn´t true.

Why is the PA stockpiling C4 explosives, weapons, ammo, rockets and sheltering terrosists where a lot of innocent people live?



They are irreconcilable enemies of the unjust politicys of the succesive goverment of Israel that only in 1993 intend a shy peace process.

The Israeli government made dozens of attempts to enter into autonomy agreements with the Arabs of Gaza and the West Bank, throughout the 70's and the 80's. The press wasn't so sophisticated then. Go to any major newspaper print archive and you can compile plenty of material on this.

There was just one problem. A certain someone and his organization threatened with execution anyone attempting to enter into such negotiations with Israel. Care to guess who?

Israel has long ago attempted to offer peace proposals with its neighbors but has mostly been left with flat refusals.

And now to 1993. What is a "shy peace process"?


The hate not only can be created by the killing of innocent people. In Palestina a deep hate was created by a eternal situation of injustice during decades of dailys humilliations by the goverment and the army of Israel. Because the goverment of Israel ever thinks that the Palestinians has´t right to live in the land in which they born.

Then why are there almsot 2 million of them still here? Then why are there over a million Israeli Arab citizens?

[Elena]

Have fun EU guys with Arabs and muslims! Just don't come crying to uncle Sam when you are hit by muslim suicide bombers!

The EU people don´t support terrorism, but we understand that all people have the same rights. Israel has the right to exist in peace and without suicide killers and The palestinians has the right to goverb theirselves without Israeli impositions.

and we? the europeans
We have the right to express our free opinion, although we can be wrong.


What was he doing in a military area? Was he shot in purpose?

Why the Israel army created a military area where a lot of innocent people live? Israel can search the terrorists, but not is correct send to the world the message that all the palestinians are terrorist and irreconcilable enemies of Israel, because isn´t true.

They are irreconcilable enemies of the unjust politicys of the succesive goverment of Israel that only in 1993 intend a shy peace process.

The hate not only can be created by the killing of innocent people. In Palestina a deep hate was created by a eternal situation of injustice during decades of dailys humilliations by the goverment and the army of Israel. Because the goverment of Israel ever thinks that the Palestinians has´t right to live in the land in which they born.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Elena
Why the Israel army created ......................

They are irreconcilable enemies.................

The hate not only can be created..........

Other than repeating your previous post, can you respond to the counterpoints brought out against it?

[dean]

I was going to send you my thoughts and how I perceive the situation without reading anything else, I thought it would be interesting, maybe more for me than you, and enlightening maybe. I was then going to read your original repsonse. Apoligies but i saw something by OJ and responded. I shall write to you if you apoligise for your "rubbish" comment about me, "naive", "misinformed" maybe, but rubbish i take as a personal insult.

[Elena]

Oh Jerusalem pardon,

I reply twice the same mesage by error.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
I shall write to you if you apoligise for your "rubbish" comment about me, "naive", "misinformed" maybe, but rubbish i take as a personal insult.

If you're referring to me, looking back at my posts, the word "rubbish" only appears in my quoting your words verbatim.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ezra]

I think we should cool down a little bit here. I have a feeling that we are ultra-excited that we reply without even reading the message we are replying to!

Let's take a little break to re-read the posts once again and continue discussion.

[Elena]

Nobody can criticize Israel to fight against terrorism, but this great militar operation isn´t very exaggerated?

Israel has the most powerful army in the mideast

How many reservist soldiers are neccesary to defeat the terrorists
groups?

What is the next step? A permanent occupation? a new war against the arabs nations?

Well, the actual militar operation against the terrorism will ends one day.

This operation can guarantee the segurity of Israel in the future without a new peace process?

[Ezra]

Originally posted by Elena
This operation can guarantee the segurity of Israel in the future without a new peace process?

Do you think new peace process will gurantee the security of Israel in the future without this operation?

[Elena]

God bless america ....and the rest of us too

[dean]

No, was a Sharonbn comment.


Can feel myself getting quite wound up, shall go and get a machine coffee from our fine coffee machine.

1. I've no idea of how representative this board is off general Israeli feeling, can somebody comment please.

2. I would look to look at a Palestinian forum if somebody can name one for me please.

[sharonbn]

dean,

I was going to send you my thoughts and how I perceive the situation without reading anything else
I don't know where you learn your manners that you come preaching to me. I only used the same words you used to describe postings here. If you wanted to send me your thoughts, isn’t it basic courtesy to read my post first? Without reading it how can we even discuss the same issue? And after you have sent me your thoughts, what am I supposed to do? read them? and respond? ignore them? Maybe I will send you my thoughts,, you will send in your thoughts, I will send... nice discussion indeed.

I thought it would be interesting, maybe more for me than you
but I already read your initial post, took it seriously and responded. If you’re too lazy to read my long post, I can only imagine the length of the research you did on the issue.

I was then going to read your original repsonse.
thank you very much.

I shall write to you if you apoligise for your "rubbish" comment about me, "naive", "misinformed" maybe, but rubbish i take as a personal insult.
dean, you must understand that your statement
“Looking at some of the threads and rubbish on this site its hardly surprising why anti-semitism is on the rise”
smells of anti-semitism. You can express disapointment from the level of the discussion without such inflamatory remarks.
If you wish to be taken seriously, don’t drug yourself into the gutter with such remarks – it offended me as a Jewish Israeli and as a person who participates in this forum.

[Ezra]

Elena,

Americans don't hate or disregard Europeans…. Never.

We pray to God to bless anywhere here is love, peace, and freedom; and not only America.

[Elena]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Elena
This operation can guarantee the segurity of Israel in the future without a new peace process?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Ezra

Do you think new peace process will gurantee the security of Israel in the future without this operation?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Maybe both of us have a part of reason and I´m sure that the innocent people suffer the mistakes of their leaders, in all wars an conflicts, not only in this. I hope that in a nearly future the good people can live in peace there and forget this sad days of absurb violence.

Sorry , I must to go work, I read you later...

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Elena
Nobody can criticize Israel to fight against terrorism, but this great militar operation isn´t very exaggerated?

OK, General Elena, how much does it take to uproot 10's of thousands of enemies bearing automatic weapons, RPGs, explosives, all hidden and spread around densly populated urban areas, with the population being supportive of such forces?

Oh, before I forget, General Elena, make sure the attack balances limiting damage/harm to non-combatant civilians at the expense of endangering your own troops. Otherwise, everyone can sit at home while the air force carpet bombs Ramalah, Jenin, Shechem, Kakilya, etcetera, etcetera, so on and so forth.


Israel has the most powerful army in the mideast

Go look up Egypts military figures please.


How many reservist soldiers are neccesary to defeat the terrorists groups?

How many armed terrorists are located in the PA? I've already given a figure.


What is the next step? A permanent occupation?

That's a possibilty. Other possibilities are autonomy and population transfer.



a new war against the arabs nations?

More like a new war against Israel. Who here said anything about wanting a war in the first place.



Well, the actual militar operation against the terrorism will ends one day.

This operation can guarantee the segurity of Israel in the future without a new peace process?

IMO, since this operation is turning out to be another indecisive one with goals not being defined and/or met by the powers that be, it will only be a temporary setback.

However, it has/had the potential to destroy the entire terrorist network and keep it that way. But no one here, unfortunately, is thinking of the long term. We have to leave now - Bush said so.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
1. I've no idea of how representative this board is off general Israeli feeling, can somebody comment please.

I'm new here but so far it seems reasonable.


2. I would look to look at a Palestinian forum if somebody can name one for me please.

The BBC. :D

[dean]

What an arrogant self righteous lot you are, 2 days of this and its enough.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
What an arrogant self righteous lot you are, 2 days of this and its enough.

Bad cuppa coffee, ey?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by dean
What an arrogant self righteous lot you are

Well at this point, I feel that anyone is now entitled to say to you

RUBBISH!

:rolleyes:

[gev]

ThirdParty,


Originally posted by ThirdParty

there are lines that have been crossed, and to say "who cares what the world thinks" is a dangerous position. Israel is not an isolationist nation, it SHOULD care deeply about what the world thinks... and to act as if the world's perception is irrelevant is naive and ultimately bad for Israel.

I think Israel does taking what the world is saying seriousely, but there are always other issues to be considered. I agree that Israel should not ignore what the world (and espacially allies) has to say of the matter, but Israel can't always do exactly what the world thinks either. for some reasons:

(1) since the Military Operation has started, there were no major terror attacks. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be, but everyone sees that the military Operation did dramatically decreased Terror attacks! the Operation is succeeding.

(2) the Security and Intelligence Communities of Israel advise to the goverment that Yaser Arafat do not want to come to a closer of the conflict and want to continue the violence, so no Ciese fire can be reached with him. (this is based on agents in the PA organizations, documents, tapping and other...)

(3) The world is affected by unobjective media, pressure of Arab countries for stop supplying Oil, and Large Arab Communities in European Country. So who is to say the Opinion is Objective?



Originally posted by ThirdParty
The suicide bombings truly make me sick, the loss of innocent life on either side is intolerable. However, my impression is that Israel ignores the simple fact that these murderous acts are in response to the oppression and humiliation heaped on the Palestinians.

Stop and think why do you beleive that the suicide bombings are in response to the oppression? is it maybe what the media is feeding you with?

Ofcourse the palestanians would say the Terror attacks are a result of occupation and oppression. but looking at the simple historic facts contradicts that theory!
some of the most horrifying terror attacks in Israel were in the middle of the most important Peace talks after the Oslo agreements (1995,1996). when most Phalestanains and Israelies (I one of them) believed that the conflict is about to be over, the occupation is ending and there will be a new middle east!

so, unfortaunately, what Israel acknowledged and the world failed to acknowledge, is that Terror is not going to end after the oppression will end, from the same reason it didnt start when the oppression started, but long before that: there were many terror attacks before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza!

Phalestanian Terrorism and killing Israelies has always been from one main reasons:
To Make Israeli people leave Israel, and to cause the destruction of Israel. (the Terror organizations themself claim it is their goal).


The most Important thing you and the World must understand is this:
Occupation is not the cause for Terrorism,
Terrorism is the cause for the Occupation - The only reason Israel is staying in the West Bank and Gaza is the need to secure the Israeli people from Terror attacks.

one fact that you cant ignore and simply contradicts your whole post is:
if there was no Terrorism, there would have been a Phalastinian State by now, settlements would have been evacuated and "Opression" would have ended forever.
there was and still is an Israeli majority for such actions, if the other side would be wise enough to stop the violence, and show Israeli public a sincere will for peace.

[L@mplighterM]

The reason you get away with constantly breaking UN resolutions is because of the Jewish Lobby in America. Finally because they have decided that they are going to bomb Iraq they have too try and get many of the Arab states on side so they are trying to put their foot down. No doubt once they have carpet bombed a few thousand people they will allow Sharon to carry on his merry way.


Actually it?s the Palestinians that are breaking one important UN Resolutions and further they are in violation of the Tenet plan.

Read!

So is it the Jews lobbying for the Palestinians?

[raven]

Ezra: America has just "sent a message" that VIOLENCE WORKS. There are people down in Mexico, who believe that America has incorporated THEIR LAND ie most of the SW. And so..they are concluding that the suicide bombing is a dandy tactic to use and if it results in establishing a Pal. State then they will use the same tactics to get back what they think is theirs.

There are Russians that believe that Alaska, altho purchased, is really theirs and want it back. All sorts of people with claims on part of the US- for all sorts of reasons. Course we have the Native Americans that are looking rather closely at what is occurring. There are parts of the African American Community claiming that THEY were here first and therefore........

Everyone learns from each other. Everyone has their eyes and ears tuned to this type of situation.

It is a horrible and dangerous mistake for America to have validated the Palistinians and their tactics for--- OUR OWN SAKE. This is WRONG. The is bad and most of America does not agree with what Bush is doing.

[L@mplighterM]

Bush is Quisling as far as I’m concerned. Powell is scheduled to meet Arafat this week.

Every American should be outraged at the current US foreign policy. If this is some scheme to pacify Islamic Fundamentalist so that they’ll leave US interests alone I don’t believe it’s going to work.

I believe that the current stance from the US administration is going to increase anti-Semitism worldwide. I see it as support for a side that has consistently shown its intolerance towards the west.

It further sends message to the Muslim Fundamentalist acknowledging that they are right and that they have been subject to mistreatment.

[JustPat]

Elena:
How familiar are your with military strategy? If you were seeking to rid your town of all criminals, how many policemen would you need?


Originally posted by Elena
How many reservist soldiers are neccesary to defeat the terrorists groups?

To eradicate terrorism, one General estimated that it will require 100 soldiers per terrorist. This seems most excessive, but the reality is you don't know who the enemy is. He looks just like everyone else. In Viet Nam, the NVA used women and children suicide bombers against the International Force sent there to secure freedom. By not standing with resolve, the International Force was vanquished and the people of South Viet Nam subjected to an abusive and tyrannical government.


Originally posted by Elena
What is the next step? A permanent occupation?

I am curious, how would you resolve the issues that have faced Israel for millienia. Short of taking full ownership and control of Areas A and B, what would work? Negotiation has failed, treaties are not honored, and "President" Arafat has declared his intention to drive the Jews into the sea, even if he himself is martyred in the process. How, I ask, would you reason with such a situation?

[JustPat]

Lamp:

Originally posted by L@mplighterM
Bush is Quisling as far as I’m concerned. ... Every American should be outraged at the current US foreign policy.

I could not agree with you more. Perhaps the torturous thought of life without oil was too much for our beloved C-in-C. Then again, since politics is all smoke and mirrors, we may not know what is truly going on.

My dad is an avid groundhog hunter. After shooting on of these destructive little creatures he bid me just sit still. From experience, he knew that the dirty little pigs couldn't resist sticking their heads up to see who got shot. I have piled as many as four on a hole as a result. Perhaps this is just the tactic that will reveal the hiding places of those who remain. :D

[raven]

Couldnt be said better Lamp.

This is incredible!

[Shuki]

Originally posted by dean
What an arrogant self righteous lot you are, 2 days of this and its enough.

Deano,

You came to us asking for information and answers about a very complex topic. A topic that is so emotionally charged that normally rational people can not always be expected to think and respond logically.

If you are truly interested in learning then you are going to have to spend a little more time here. I encourage you to find a Palestinian forum, the truth is often in the middle.

But you cannot come to a group of Jews and make comments that accusations of anti-semitism will increase its occurance. Its foolishness.

There is no connection. It is similar to me saying that I hate the English because they are the root of the problem in the ME. Afterall they used their divide and conquer mentality on Jews and Arabs, promising the same land to both.

Anyway, if you are legitimate in your pursuit of knowledge you will stick around. We may not always agree, but that is ok.

[L@mplighterM]

But you cannot come to a group of Jews and make comments that accusations of anti-semitism will increase its occurance. Its foolishness.

____ ___!

[JustPat]

In view of the current plethora of varying opinion, what would the reports in f the press have looked like when Joshua and Caleb first sought to possess the Land of Promise? How would Caleb have been portrayed after his proclamation to take Hebron to its uttermost?

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by JustPat
In view of the current plethora of varying opinion, what would the reports in f the press have looked like when Joshua and Caleb first sought to possess the Land of Promise? How would Caleb have been portrayed after his proclamation to take Hebron to its uttermost?
Probably not too favorably.

Looking back at history, it is pretty much only in the case of Israel that the winner of a war did not get to keep the land it won in battle over its own land.

Then again, this is the first time in modern history that a nation like Israel is being terrorized and oppressed in its own home by Arab violence, yet it is being condemned by the supposedly civilized world.

[dean]

Sent a private message but don't think it went through. I had a few private messages that were offensive and made me very bloody angry. Am reading, absorbing at the moment, and i shall leave it at that for a while.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by dean
Sent a private message but don't think it went through. I had a few private messages that were offensive and made me very bloody angry. Am reading, absorbing at the moment, and i shall leave it at that for a while.

Hi Deano,

I haven't been willing to accept private messages. I had a bad experience in a prior forum, but I may change my mind at some point.

I sincerely hope that you do stick around. Since this is such an emotionally charged issue it tends to promote very strong responses, sometimes they are warranted and sometimes they are not.

Also, there has been a substantial rise across the world in anti-semitic attacks. Synagogues are being torched, people are being beat up. In conjunction with everything else it engenders a tendency to strike back quickly at any perceived slight.

As a Jewish man in my 30s I have met my share of holocaust survivors and heard the stories. My great-grandparents also told me of their experiences in Europe with pogroms and the cossacks.

It has always been hard for people of my generation to understand how Jews could allow themselves to be picked upon and beat up. Which should give you a little insight as to why we are quick to go after our attackers.

I think that one of the saddest aspects of the conflict is the dehumanization of Israelis/Jews and Palestinians by their respective adversaries.

It is tragic. In the grand scheme of things I am very young, but my personal memory and the collective memory of the past is still very much a part of how we adapt to the present and look to the future.

[dean]

Thanks.
I've barred my e-mail now.
For those who wrote and others. The saddest moment of my life (that is non personal related) was when i was in Lodz, Poland about 1991 i believe. My friend took me to a jewish cemetary, in the centre it had a slab of concrete,no particular shape, it was just sat there, but in its middle their was a shape of a boy hollowed out, several yards in front their was a sculpture of that boy, as if he had been cut out and slid forward. It was rather sad and i asked my friend what it mean't he told me that irt represented the boy being shot against a wall and his leaving his mothers heart. It struck me cold as did the inscription that was intertreprated for me. Swelled up and left, then we went to what looked like an old public building and stood outside on the grass, it was covered in bullet holes and burnt. I was told that when the Russians were advancing the Germans set light to the building, it forced them to the top were they were shot, jumped, burnt.

Please, those posters, not again, i mean well.
thanks

[Shuki]

Originally posted by dean
Thanks.


Not a problem. I think that finding people to engage with in dialogue is important. I won't lie and pretend not to have an agenda, I do.

Clearly I want to try and bring as many people to the Israeli side as possible. But I will reiterate again that I do not believe that we are not without fault.

And I do not believe that Arafat has ever been anything more than a terrorist. Truthfully I do not believe that the Palestinians have a real claim to their own state.

But the reality is that it is coming. And if that means that my people can live peacefully, than that is acceptable to me.

The question is how do we bring that about in an acceptable way. There is a different thought process in the ME, concessions cannot be made through violence, or it will encourage the continued use of violence.

[JustPat]

Shuki,

I appreciate your comments in encouraging dialogue. I too have had bad experiences with private messaging, but refuse to let the behavior of some isolate me.

You commented:

Originally posted by Shuki

I think that one of the saddest aspects of the conflict is the dehumanization of Israelis/Jews and Palestinians by their respective adversaries.

I wonder if this is accruate. It seems to me that man is as subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics as is matter. In simple terms, to quote my professor, "Left to themselves, everything goes from bad to worse."

What culture has ever achieved an ever increasing moral character? None. Even those who have reached the peaks of education and technology have turned the things they have learned on their neighbors or on themselves. Israel's own history testifies to this.

In the Kingdom Age, Israel saw the pinnacle of leadership in David. He built a nation into a formidable entity that was the envy of its neighbors. He conquerored Jerusalem and made it Israel's capital. He passed this legacy on to Solomon, possibly the most famous of all kings. But with the crown he also passed a sinister mission, to kill every enemy that he had not been able to see revenge visited upon.

It seems that there is within man an inherent nature to self destruct. Our emotions override our reasoning, our hormones override our logic, and we reveal the animal within. Only those who are willing to take control of the animal and train themselves in the art of responding instead of reacting will be able to see a rational end to conflict.

Hyman Rickover was a great leader. He constantly challenged those who followed hime to rise to higher heights and reach ther full potential. As we look at the current conflict and the problems that came as birth defects for the birth of the "Palestinian State", it is obvious that there is a need for leadership that has the boldness and cunning of David and the wisdom of Solomon.

Is there such leadership in either the Israeli or Palestinian camps?

[Shuki]

Originally posted by JustPat
Shuki,

I appreciate your comments in encouraging dialogue. I too have had bad experiences with private messaging, but refuse to let the behavior of some isolate me.

You commented:


I wonder if this is accruate. It seems to me that man is as subject to the Second Law of Thermodynamics as is matter. In simple terms, to quote my professor, "Left to themselves, everything goes from bad to worse."

What culture has ever achieved an ever increasing moral character? None. Even those who have reached the peaks of education and technology have turned the things they have learned on their neighbors or on themselves. Israel's own history testifies to this.

In the Kingdom Age, Israel saw the pinnacle of leadership in David. He built a nation into a formidable entity that was the envy of its neighbors. He conquerored Jerusalem and made it Israel's capital. He passed this legacy on to Solomon, possibly the most famous of all kings. But with the crown he also passed a sinister mission, to kill every enemy that he had not been able to see revenge visited upon.

It seems that there is within man an inherent nature to self destruct. Our emotions override our reasoning, our hormones override our logic, and we reveal the animal within. Only those who are willing to take control of the animal and train themselves in the art of responding instead of reacting will be able to see a rational end to conflict.

Hyman Rickover was a great leader. He constantly challenged those who followed hime to rise to higher heights and reach ther full potential. As we look at the current conflict and the problems that came as birth defects for the birth of the "Palestinian State", it is obvious that there is a need for leadership that has the boldness and cunning of David and the wisdom of Solomon.

Is there such leadership in either the Israeli or Palestinian camps?

I do not believe that it is within man's nature to self-destruct. I don't believe that most people are inherently good or bad. I think that it is a cop-out to blame our actions upon our own nature as if it was unavoidable.

I think as we grow and age we adapt certain habits and practices, some good some bad. People have a tremendous capacity for doing both good and bad through the choices that they make.

Among the challenges we face is understanding how to communicate with others. As has been stated numerous times every culture has certain group norms and responses. In some cultures holding up your middle finger is an insult, while in others it has no meaning.

The point here is that sometimes our inability to communicate well leads to misunderstandings that are fueled into actions that create other actions- the whole butterfly starting a hurricane bit.

To me you could boil the whole conflict down to teaching each side how to be fluent in the other sides language. IF that takes place we can find ways in which to facilitate the real end of this conflict, with the understanding that both sides will never be completely satisfied with the solution.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Shuki


To me you could boil the whole conflict down to teaching each side how to be fluent in the other sides language. IF that takes place we can find ways in which to facilitate the real end of this conflict, with the understanding that both sides will never be completely satisfied with the solution.

I don't think it is a case of "inherently" good or evil. To me this is more a case of breaking free of the cultural norms and previously learned behavior that we all are subjected to. If Israel and the Palestinians are going to work this out they will not only need to learn how to be fluent in the language of the other, but they will need to be willing to think and act in ways that may involve deviation from the norm. I am not certain that you can ever get those who hold an orthodox position on either side to do that. What is fanatacism to one is fundamentalism to another.

I believe that a solution to the issues at hand can be achieved without violence, but only if both sides have leadership that has integrity and a populace that will faithfull follow that leadership.

Here in the US we know that getting the people on board is an act of extraordinary leadership. For the Israeli government it will be no less.

The Palestinians have another problem. You cannot program your children for hatred and then ask them as adults to lay down their swords and embrace their enemies.

I think there is still a great deal of violence ahead.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by JustPat



The Palestinians have another problem. You cannot program your children for hatred and then ask them as adults to lay down their swords and embrace their enemies.

I think there is still a great deal of violence ahead.

Agreed.

[GoyBoy]

I'm still here. Either these forums are open to real debate or they are not. There is nothing to be afraid of or feel threatened by. I'm as much a victim of propaganda as anyone else. The people of the world should be embracing the truth instead of running away from it

If you have a brain and are one of the lucky few who can actually use it, then you absolutely have a responsibility to seek out the truth. regardless of the consequences. If you choose to believe the stories without the slightest attempt to investigate and confirm for yourselves than you deserve the consequences of ignorance.

[MGB8]

There is debate, and there is depraved dishonesty.

[GoyBoy]

Oh ok. :rolleyes: Thanks for clearing that up.

[KettleWhistle]

I'm as much a victim of propaganda as anyone else.

No $hit. Now go back to stormfront.

[GoyBoy]

is similar to me saying that I hate the English because they are the root of the problem in the ME. Afterall they used their divide and conquer mentality on Jews and Arabs, promising the same land to both.

It was the German Jews who went to England during WWI and offered them a deal. In the early part of the war, when England was losing badly, they were offered peace terms by Germany, England was ready to sign on the dotted line when GERMAN JEWS went to England and said " Don't surrender, We could help you, We will get the United states to come in as your allies and you will defeat the Germans IF after you win the war, you promise to help us get Palestine as our homeland." and this is exactly what happened.

After the war, when the Germans became aware of what their own Jewish citizens had done, stabbed them in the back! This is precisely the point when German/Jewish relationship started to faultier. Up until that time the Jews were happier in Germany than almost anywhere else in the world. Germany had welcomed all the Jews from Russia with open arms.

Unfortunately it was the German Jews who sold out their own Government. :(

[GoyBoy]

No $hit. Now go back to stormfront.

I'm not familiar with stormfront.

[KettleWhistle]

Google it. You'll find yourself right at home there.

[KettleWhistle]

It was the German Jews who went to England during WWI and offered them a deal. In the early part of the war, when England was losing badly, they were offered peace terms by Germany, England was ready to sign on the dotted line when GERMAN JEWS went to England and said " Don't surrender, We could help you, We will get the United states to come in as your allies and you will defeat the Germans IF after you win the war, you promise to help us get Palestine as our homeland." and this is exactly what happened.

After the war, when the Germans became aware of what their own Jewish citizens had done, stabbed them in the back! This is precisely the point when German/Jewish relationship started to faultier. Up until that time the Jews were happier in Germany than almost anywhere else in the world. Germany had welcomed all the Jews from Russia with open arms.

Unfortunately it was the German Jews who sold out their own Government. :(

Do you also believe that the Earth is flat?

[GoyBoy]

:D I just looked it up but I'm not white so I would'nt fit in.

[GoyBoy]

Do you also believe that the Earth is flat? No but I'd be interested in hearing what you believe caused the German people to turn on the German Jews. Did Hitler just wake up one day and decide he hated the Jews?
Why had the Jews been so happy in Germany for so many years? What is your understand as to why the sudden resentment towards the Jews in Germany?

[KettleWhistle]

If you have a brain and are one of the lucky few who can actually use it, then you absolutely have a responsibility to seek out the truth. regardless of the consequences. If you choose to believe the stories without the slightest attempt to investigate and confirm for yourselves than you deserve the consequences of ignorance.

For someone who posted the above quote, you are awefully hypocritical.

Perhaps someone like you could enlighten us as to why "the Germans" also turned on gays, Roma and Sinti (Gypsies), Slavs, Blacks, Jehova Witnesses, and a mirriad of other ethnic and cultural minorities.

[Reffo]

If you have a brain and are one of the lucky few who can actually use it, then you absolutely have a responsibility to seek out the truth. regardless of the consequences. If you choose to believe the stories without the slightest attempt to investigate and confirm for yourselves than you deserve the consequences of ignorance.Yeah, but that goes both ways. So, are you willing and able to be enlightened ? Or do you just want to "enlighten" others while you keep a closed mind and persist in believing your own conspiracy theories......?

[goliath]

[QUOTE=GoyBoy]No but I'd be interested in hearing what you believe caused the German people to turn on the German Jews. Did Hitler just wake up one day and decide he hated the Jews?
Why had the Jews been so happy in Germany for so many years? What is your understand as to why the sudden resentment towards the Jews in Germany?
On one acronym my answer is this : be brave STW....

I really do think we should all of us pass an exam ,before writing post......and on a secret forum's place (a very safe one ) ,have to show any ID ....displaying ...age...etc etc ....
And stop to accept babyboy,or babygirls....!!

TOTBAL....

[Mediocrates]

Post 94 is a lie spun out of whole cloth and there is not and never been a single substantiated shred of factual evidence from any known reputable historian to support it.

[superspd8]

It was the German Jews who went to England during WWI and offered them a deal. In the early part of the war, when England was losing badly, they were offered peace terms by Germany, England was ready to sign on the dotted line when GERMAN JEWS went to England and said " Don't surrender, We could help you, We will get the United states to come in as your allies and you will defeat the Germans IF after you win the war, you promise to help us get Palestine as our homeland." and this is exactly what happened.

After the war, when the Germans became aware of what their own Jewish citizens had done, stabbed them in the back! This is precisely the point when German/Jewish relationship started to faultier. Up until that time the Jews were happier in Germany than almost anywhere else in the world. Germany had welcomed all the Jews from Russia with open arms.

Unfortunately it was the German Jews who sold out their own Government. :(
And where did you get this from? Storm Front? Creators? Aryan Nation? Hamas?

[Semsem]

<<It was the German Jews who went to England during WWI and offered them a deal. In the early part of the war, when England was losing badly, they were offered peace terms by Germany, England was ready to sign on the dotted line when GERMAN JEWS went to England and said " Don't surrender, We could help you, We will get the United states to come in as your allies and you will d<<

Another WHACKO. The German and Austrian Jews loved the Kaiser and Emperor Franz Joseph. STOP YOUR ANTISEMITIC LIES. My mother's father fought in the Austrian Army and loved Franz Joseph. You are full of BS to say that the German Jews wanted Britain to win.

[Semsem]

>>I am neither a Jew or Arab. But I am watching this conflict carefully because it has the potential to ignite the whole world.<<

Mmmm another white supremacist wacko coming for a visit. From Canada. Quite a few ex Nazis were given asylum there.

[superspd8]

If Jews had weapons and been More able to fight Hitler, the anti-Semites and "Progressives" would have sad: "What else could Hitler have done but gassed them?"

As it is about 1/2 million Jews died fighting as partisans in Russia, Poland, France and other countries.

Much (if not most) of the French Resistance was made up of Jews. The French helped the Nazis cart off 100,000 Jews to their deaths. The Vichy French were Nazis.

During the 60 th Anniversary of D-Day, the French went out of their way to honor dead Germans. On French TV, they had a show about a beautiful French girl who feel in love with a charming, handsome German Nazi soldier. when they showed the graves at Normandy, they showed the Nazi graves.

Now, they honor the Jihadists and damn anyone fighting them (namely Americans, French, British, poles, etc.)

[superspd8]

As we can see, the progressives support the same right wing terrorists as the Extreme right wing. They are one and nd the same.

Look at International Answer (Ramsey Clark). he led the "Moral High Ground" (choke, puke) anti-war movement in alliance with MoveOn.Org. While they condemned any attempt to unseat Psycho Saddam, they supported suicide bombers, Psycho Castro, Psycho Kim dong Il (N.Korea), terrorist thug Arafat and all the other Stalinists of the world.

Most of the idiot press is "progressive". They are so confused that having their moral high ground is to support terrorists, psychos and thugs.

[minusthejihad]

I just think it's cute that the term liberal has been swapped out with "progressive" over night. What will be the next cool catch phrase?

[Mediocrates]

Todd Gitlin would disagree that the new left is Left. It's pretty clear that both 'parties' were commandered by their own respective extremists. There really isn't anything substantive there or with their counterparts on the far right either. For every I'd-like-to-buy-the-world-a-retarded-Coke there is a corresponding Ayn Rand screwtape who thinks Soylent Green is a damn fine idea. It's almost as if we've lost the capacity to think of any inspiring idea or ideal that we believe will move our societies forward anymore.

[sacredgoat]

All peoples of the world and histories have been somewhat nazi until they were able to live in multicultural settings, which are quite rare, and happen these days in certain places within Europa and North America.

sacredgoad


(Ps. so please stop blaming at who was first and who is last cos you've all
been there. Egyptians, sumerians, wolf packs, red ants...whatever)

[Titus]

There was nothing wrong with the majority of German soldiers. To not recognise there courage would be wrong. Those who were responsible for running the concentration camps, mostly SS Nazis, do not deserve to be honoured.

[superspd8]

I take it you studied this 'history' in an American high school.

Other than providing a flippant non-answer, you have contributed no information and nothing that contradicts what I am saying.

My statement about French TV comes from my sister who has been living in Paris for more than 30 years and saw it herself on French TV.

There are a number of books out about the Jewish resistance in Europe. We didn't all walk to the gas chambers like sheep. The Warsaw ghetto killed more Germans and held out longer than the whole French army.

So, why don't you use your superior Canadian education and do a little research and find out for your self? I do believe that even if you verify the truth of what I am saying, you will not change your mind and your implied dislike of Jews.

[Titus]

Tragic thing is that today the heroes of the Warsaw ghetto would be called terrorists.

[Thaer K. Hamed]

How do you lose something you never had?

[Reffo]

Tragic thing is that today the heroes of the Warsaw ghetto would be called terrorists.What a nonsensical analogy (not to mention despicable and not the first one either). It's the sort of comment I for one have come to expect of you Titus. Why?

The Warsaw Ghetto fighters did not provoke the fight with the Germans
The Warsaw Ghetto fighters were condemned to death by the Germans for the sole crime of being Jewish, there was no other provocation.
The Warsaw Ghetto fighters had only two choices: One was to be executed meekly without fighting or Two: to resist, fight for their lives and exact a toll from their Nazi tormentors.


Now let's just compare the above to Hezbollah:


Hezbollah did provoke the fight with Israel
Nobody threatened Hezbollah.
Hezbollah has the choice to live and let live


Let's try the same with Hamas:


Hamas did provoke the fight with Israel
If Hamas would stop it's terrorism against Israel, it would not be under threat.
Hamas has the choice to live and let live. And they would be offered a better life if they would agree to compromise with Israel.

[superspd8]

How do you lose something you never had?
By wrapping your children in bomb vests and sending them out to kill and die.

by killing 20,000 people in Homs like Papa Assad did.

By acting as a psycho mass killer liek Saddam.

Y'all never had moral high ground. Not even moral low ground. But you sure got a lot of immorality like your famed "honor killings".

[CanDo]

Tragic thing is that today the heroes of the Warsaw ghetto would be called terrorists.

By whom? By you?

You may believe that posting forum notes makes you seem all grown up, but all you do is parrot tired, old, infantile, antiJewish propaganda.

[superspd8]

Hey, Fox news is on. You'd better get back to school. Yee-haw!

I told you specifically about France and how I got the information and you come up with this childish response?

You have contributed nothing to the discussion. You haven't even shown where anything I said is wrong.

The only reason I even answered you is that to not answer is to imply that you are right, which you aren't.

By the way, we know that CBS and the NY Tuimes have no problem concocting false stories and we know that your Jihadist supporting Candian press is equally worthless.

[European2006]

As a Catholic Euro, I have come across something online that has spurred me on to ask a question to our Jewish friends on this forum.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

IDF commanders and the politicians who supposedly control them don’t even have the courage of their own viciousness. After all, they have an easy out in this pronouncement of the Yesha Rabbinical Council:

"According to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy. All of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians."

So my question in that context is this:

A: Do you agree that in war "there are no innocents"? Does this mean babies and wheelchair-bound old people are "enemies"? Are they "legitimate targets"?

Because if they are, then does that not place Hamas and Hezbollah on equal moral footing as the IDF? Would they not also say "in war there are no innocents"? :rolleyes:

Another point I want to make. My country had nothing to do with the Holocaust and was neutral in WW2. So I have a completely clear conscience when making these criticisms. Not all of Europe was involved you know. So kindly stop tarring us all with the one brush. Thank you.

[Mediocrates]

Didn't Ireland offer docking to German subs?

[European2006]

Didn't Ireland offer docking to German subs?

No. That's a myth propagated by sections of the Loyalist community in NI. I don't think it would have been very wise with the British just up the road.

[Illuminatus]

Greetings European2006,

The officers and soldiers of IDF are a group of hightly trained professionals whose fundatmental doctrine adheres to and are subject to the Laws of War (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/lawwar.htm).

I am not aware of, and neither have you (the article) explained this so-called "According to Jewish law" (btw, I am not Jewish).

There may be "Jewish traditions" in warfare, but they do not take presidence over the "Laws of War".

---

also I find it amusing that you selectively call yourself a EUropean and embrace the "good" -- but when it comes to the ancient and still popular habit and centuries old tradition of slaughtering each other and contant warfare -- that's when you conveniently claim "my country" and "neutrality".

You're either EUropean (a people who still need NATO and 70,000 US troops for adult supervision) or you're not.

How 'bout "Part-Time" EUtopian, and Irish when it get's difficult?

^_^

ps, welcome to the forum

[CanDo]

A: Do you agree that in war "there are no innocents"? Does this mean babies and wheelchair-bound old people are "enemies"? Are they "legitimate targets"?

Because if they are, then does that not place Hamas and Hezbollah on equal moral footing as the IDF? Would they not also say "in war there are no innocents"?

For the answer to that question all you had to do is take a few minutes an research the history of Israel defending itself against 60 years of Arab terrorism and hostility. While there are many documented accounts of horrible, inhumane Islamic treatment of civilians there are very few, if any, about Israeli's behaving the same way.

In fact, Israelis have been faulted for putting their own lives on the line in order to protect Arab civilians. Almost on a daily basis there are documented acts of Israel trying to prevent civilian casualties.

That begs the question of why would you ask such a stupid question. Why would you ask a question that tends to favor Islamic terrorists? I question your motivation. I don't think that you are being honest with your question. Either that, or you just don't have the intelligence and honesty to do proper research.

[European2006]

Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews
140,000 driven out Algeria
75,000 driven out Egypt
100,000 driven out Iran
150,000 driven out Iraq
20,000 driven out Lebanon
38,000 driven out Libya
260,000 driven out Morocco
30,000 driven out Syria
105,000 driven out Tunisia
55,000 driven out Yemen


710,000 Arabs driven out of Old Palestine in 1948. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

[Mediocrates]

Curious the way UNRWA does math. At the same time they were being attacked by the armies of 4 different nations in a war that took almost a year, 600,000 Jews in total, including babies, old people and such, managed to 'expel 750,000 Arabs.

[CanDo]

710,000 Arabs driven out of Old Palestine in 1948. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

So? What's your point?

Israel assorbed it's ~million Jewish refugees, who were driven out of Arab countries and then absorbed large numbers of Jewish victims of the Holcaust, who were driven out of Europe and Asia.

On the other hand, the 710,000 Arabs who were "driven" out of Old Palestine were NEVER absorbed by Arab nations. Most were kept in squalid refugee camps where they are not given access to jobs, or proper health care, or a decent standard of living.

Israel, OTOH, has absorbed over a million Arabs, who have a higher standard of living than Arabs in Arab countries, and even hold positions in the government of Israel.

So, then, what is your point? Is your point that you want to ignore all of the many Arab atrocities against, not only Jews, but also against Christians and Hindus and even against fellow Arabs? Is your point that you don't have the intelligence to study history so you are forced to parrot the same, repetitive antiIsrael useless garbage that is constantly posted by mental midgets?

[rahon]

By wrapping your children in bomb vests and sending them out to kill and die.

by killing 20,000 people in Homs like Papa Assad did.

By acting as a psycho mass killer liek Saddam.

Y'all never had moral high ground. Not even moral low ground. But you sure got a lot of immorality like your famed "honor killings".Israel is an entity built on blood and massacres,it is a well documented historical fact,since the irgun terrorist organisation up to the olmert regime,your leitmotive has been and still is,perpetrate genocidal actions as a means of dissuasion,as an israeli supporter,you are not qualified(if I may say so) in giving lessons on morals knowing what you dear nazisrael has commited throughout history,kafr yassine massacre,school of bakar massacre,sabra an chatilla,kana1,jenine,............ect............. ..........kana2.

[sacredgoat]

These arabs vs jews posts make both jews and arabs sound like two very stupid nations.



"we want to live separate but together with other communities"


Booolshyttt.

Stay in your gangs folks,

I'm off this forum it's way too dumb.


sacredgoat

[rahon]

Curious the way UNRWA does math. At the same time they were being attacked by the armies of 4 different nations in a war that took almost a year, 600,000 Jews in total, including babies, old people and such, managed to 'expel 750,000 Arabs.
Let's not be overexcited here,you know as much as I do that if it wasn't for the HUGE support of the west and america in peticular,you would not last a week,you have no credit here,you are a dependant entity wich could not rely on itself.

[Mediocrates]

Israel is an entity built on blood and massacres,it is a well documented historical fact,


Ok show me - I mean have your rip-n-read sources paste them up. thanks.

[Mediocrates]

Let's not be overexcited here,you know as much as I do that if it wasn't for the HUGE support of the west and america in peticular,you would not last a week,you have no credit here,you are a dependant entity wich could not rely on itself.

Really? Could you demonstrate that please? with facts. Or just send the 'research' staff from Counterpunch over. Thanks.

[superspd8]

As a Catholic Euro, I have come across something online that has spurred me on to ask a question to our Jewish friends on this forum.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html


So my question in that context is this:

A: Do you agree that in war "there are no innocents"? Does this mean babies and wheelchair-bound old people are "enemies"? Are they "legitimate targets"?

Because if they are, then does that not place Hamas and Hezbullah on equal moral footing as the IDF? Would they not also say "in war there are no innocents"? :rolleyes:

Another point I want to make. My country had nothing to do with the Holocaust and was neutral in WW2. So I have a completely clear conscience when making these criticisms. Not all of Europe was involved you know. So kindly stop tarring us all with the one brush. Thank you.

I don't look on neutrality as morally defensible. That is saying that you don't care who wins - that there was no difference between the Fascists and the allies. I take it that your country is Switzerland. While Switzerland took in a number of Jews as refugees, it also rejected many. And we should not forget that your neutral banks did everything possible not to return money to the descendants of victims who Had put their money in trust in your banks.

Pope Pius was not outstanding in opposing the Nazis.

We Jews are allowed to think for ourselves. Fortunately, we do not have anyone equivalent to a Pope, so what the Yesha says is not binding.

if you look at the behavior of Israel in this battle, they warned Lebanese where they were going to bomb. This also saved the asses of many Hizbullah terrorists. Even with that, you will have civilians killed in wars. Unfortunately, children are also killed. I (and I can only speak for me) do not consider a person who voted for Hezbullah or Hamas to be "innocent". They know full what what these organizations stand for.

I suggest that you look at http://newsbusters.org/node/6574

It is from CNN's Anderson Cooper and is about how Hizbullah manipulates the news. There are also pictures on the web from Australia showing how Hizbullah exaggerated the number of people killed in Qana.

Now for you:

Do you condemn Hizbullah for invading Israel, kidnapping two a dn killing 8?

Do you accept as face value everything that the Jihadists say?

Do you condemn the sending of missiles into Israel - which has been going on since Israel withdrew in 2000?

Do you condemn filling missiles with ball bearings so that any civilian within 50 meters is shredded?

What do you think of Iran and Syria providing Hizbullah with 12,000 missiles in the last 6 years?

What do you think of Hamas attacking Israel after Israel withdrew? (I know the standard argument that they were prisoners. Well, consider the fact that their charter calls for killing Jews and ob liberating Israel.)

What do you think of Sharia and honor killings? DO you think a 3 year old child should be beaten to near death and thrown out on the street to die as was done in "Palestine" last year? Do you think Gays should be hanged in Iran because they are gay/

Israel is fighting for its existence and if you listen to Nasrallah, Ahmadinejad and Hamas you will see that they agree.

None of this would be happening if Lebanon was willing to make peace after Israel withdrew. So try blaming the people who are to blame.

[CanDo]

Let's not be overexcited here,you know as much as I do that if it wasn't for the HUGE support of the west and america in peticular,you would not last a week, ...

In the war of 1948 there were 140,000 Jewish fighters versus 660,000 Arabs fighters. On December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on both the Jewish and Arab sides. The poorly armed and poorly equiped Jews had trouble getting supplies, while the Arabs had no problem in getting weapons, especially from England. This is well documented.

The relatively small number of brave, poorly armed Jewish men and women fighters defeated the mighty Arab armies. Amazing, wasn't it!? It has been quite embarassing to Arabs, having Jewish women defeating the Arab's best male warriors.

Perhaps Arabs would do better in their backward violent lives if they didn't hold the child molester Mohammed as it's prophet ( raped A'isha, nine years old, year 624).

[AppleEater]

Really? Could you demonstrate that please? with facts. Or just send the 'research' staff from Counterpunch over. Thanks.

Israel's public debt is 99.7% of GDP ($154.5 billion, 2005 est.) and "...it depends on imports of crude oil, grains, raw materials, and military equipment.". It runs an average $14 billion annual deficit based on 2005 projections. This year, that deficit will likely increase by a few billion.

"Roughly half of the government's external debt is owed to the US, which is its major source of economic and military aid."

I'm quoting the CIA factbook.

[Mediocrates]

So what's your point? China's public debt - non performing is probably 5x GDP. Most EU states hover in the 70% range. Direct US military aid accounts for 1.8-1.9 billion a year or about 1.4% of GDP; or about 9-11% of the total defence budget.

[Mediocrates]

Canada's public debt is 70% of GDP, FWIW.

[Ricky]

Israel never deliberately targets people in wheelchairs or any other civilians. Unfortunately, the Hizbulla places its armaments and headquarters within civilian areas, making it impossible to attack them without, at least, endangering civilian Lebanese. Just an hour ago I saw a piece of film, filmed from the air by the Israeli army, of a Hizbulla Katyusha launcher entering the grounds of a private house after having shot rockets into Israel. The army has many such film shots. Today the Israeli commandos made a raid against a Hizbulla HQ deep within Lebanese territory. The HQ was situated in a hospital! The Lebanese should revolt at this cynical endangering of civilians by the Hizbulla.

[CanDo]

The Lebanese should revolt at this cynical endangering of civilians by the Hizbulla.

What is it going to take for the Lebanese, or even the general Arab population, to realize that the reason why they are all in such poverty, and misery, is because their leaders, and their mullahs, have lead them down the wrong path. In baseball or football, or any sport, if the team keeps losing, game after game after game, the blame is put on the management.

In the Arab/Muslim world, the blame for all misery is either placed on Jews or America. And the general Arab/Muslim public believes it! Arabs/Muslims can't be that stupid and backward, can they?

[Mediocrates]

Yesterday 70 Iraqis were blown up. No one noticed. Know why? NII (No Israelis Involved). Not even the Arab world can muster the energy to get angry over this kind of thing.

[European2006]

I don't look on neutrality as morally defensible. That is saying that you don't care who wins - that there was no difference between the Fascists and the allies. I take it that your country is Switzerland. While Switzerland took in a number of Jews as refugees, it also rejected many. And we should not forget that your neutral banks did everything possible not to return money to the descendants of victims who Had put their money in trust in your banks.

My country is the Republic of Ireland.


Pope Pius was not outstanding in opposing the Nazis.

Agreed but I disagree with the Church on many issues and their stance at various times shouldn't be automatically take as the view of Catholics generally. Especially nowadays e.g. Spain has legalised gay marriage incurring the wrath of the Church.


We Jews are allowed to think for ourselves. Fortunately, we do not have anyone equivalent to a Pope, so what the Yesha says is not binding.

if you look at the behavior of Israel in this battle, they warned Lebanese where they were going to bomb. This also saved the asses of many Hizbullah terrorists. Even with that, you will have civilians killed in wars. Unfortunately, children are also killed. I (and I can only speak for me) do not consider a person who voted for Hezbullah or Hamas to be "innocent". They know full what what these organizations stand for.

I have heard on the radio and Sky that after the "get out" leaflets were dropped, those trying to leave are often bombed. In particular, on Sky News a few days ago, they mentioned that a convoy they were travelling in was hit and they showed injuries of others on the convoy. Also remember that there is a problem in that if Israel is saying people living south of the Litani river should leave, that the destruction of 63 bridges might make accomplishing that rather difficult...On Hamas and Hezbollah voters, could the same have been said about those voting for Menachem Begin who blew up the King David Hotel? Your country recently celebrated the attack on the King David Hotel. It is ironic then that you fail to understand that in the eyes of the Palestinians, Hamas are their freedom fighters, just as Israelis saw Irgun and the Stern Gang as theirs. The old saying springs to mind "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". The context in which Hamas came to power is also important. There were no negotiations. I am not a fan of Hamas, and I despise their suicide bombings against civilians. But they stopped that some time ago. But if they attack Israeli troops in the West Bank, then international law is on their side under UN Security Council Resolution 242 which requires the return of the territories seized by Israel in 1967. The rights or wrongs of that war are irrelevant to the fact that these territories should be returned and that is international law, and since Israel is lecturing Lebanon on implementing UN Resolution 1559 on disarming Hezbollah, surely consistency demands it also implement the resolutions it is in violation of.


I suggest that you look at http://newsbusters.org/node/6574

It is from CNN's Anderson Cooper and is about how Hizbullah manipulates the news. There are also pictures on the web from Australia showing how Hizbullah exaggerated the number of people killed in Qana.

OK I have just read it. It states:


He countered Hezbollah claims that Israel targets civilians by pointing out that the group based itself in civilian areas and that Israel's air force drops leaflets warning of attacks.

This has been the complaint of conventional armies fighting guerillas from time immemorial. Considering you are invading their country, I feel little sympathy with that argument because they are hardly going to show themselves to you like gentlemen when there's only a few hundred of them and hundreds of thousands of IDF. These sorts of tactics were also used by Israel in 1948 to defeat the Arabs so you cannot credibly complain. Hit and run is the only way for small countries to beat huge armies.


“We'd come to get a look at the damage and had hoped to talk with a Hezbollah representative. Instead, we found ourselves with other foreign reporters taken on a guided tour by Hezbollah. Young men on motor scooters followed our every movement. They only allowed us to videotape certain streets, certain buildings. Once, when they thought we'd videotaped them, they asked us to erase the tape. These men are called al-Shabab, Hezbollah volunteers who are the organization's eyes and ears.”

Israel also has military censorship so are you going to condemn that too?


Do you condemn Hizbullah for invading Israel, kidnapping two a dn killing 8?

Yes.


Do you accept as face value everything that the Jihadists say?

No but I believe the first casualty of war is the truth and I don't accept everything your side says either. Psychological warfare is part of modern warfare.


Do you condemn the sending of missiles into Israel - which has been going on since Israel withdrew in 2000?

Yes but I see a moral equivalence with the IDF. Also, very few people have been killed by the Katyushas relative to Lebanese and even fewer since 2000.


Do you condemn filling missiles with ball bearings so that any civilian within 50 meters is shredded?

Yes and I condemn the IDF using missiles containing phoshorous designed to cause facial burns to survivors, as revealed in the Lebanese hospitals where doctors reported a smell of phosphorous and facial burns were shown in children.


What do you think of Iran and Syria providing Hizbullah with 12,000 missiles in the last 6 years?

Don't agree with it but Syrian territory (Golan) is still being occupied so its understandible but I would feel it should only be used against the forces of occupation not random attacks on civilians (which I accept is happening).


What do you think of Hamas attacking Israel after Israel withdrew? (I know the standard argument that they were prisoners. Well, consider the fact that their charter calls for killing Jews and ob liberating Israel.)

I think the killing of 19 civilians on the Gaza beach was a factor behind it. Also ceasefires agreed with Israel in the past have always been broken by Israel, including the continuation of "targeted killings" which is a breach of faith. I also think the absence of negotiations played a role.


What do you think of Sharia and honor killings? DO you think a 3 year old child should be beaten to near death and thrown out on the street to die as was done in "Palestine" last year? Do you think Gays should be hanged in Iran because they are gay?

I despise Sharia including treatment of gay people but we can't all be the same. I don't think we have a right to impose Western values on other countries by military force.


Israel is fighting for its existence and if you listen to Nasrallah, Ahmadinejad and Hamas you will see that they agree.

Israel's existence is not under threat that is just propaganda and indicative of a 1948-67 timewarp. Israel is the strongest power in the region, with 1,100 fighter jets (2nd largest airforce in world), 4,000 tanks, 148,000 standing army and 500,000 reserves. Then you have the nukes too. No country is going to invade a country with nuclear weapons.


None of this would be happening if Lebanon was willing to make peace after Israel withdrew. So try blaming the people who are to blame.

The Syrian army was still occupying Lebanon until around 1 yr ago and would not allow Lebanon to do that. They only left last year but Syria had previously restructured the Lebanese army in favour of Shias, who might have been unwilling to disarm Hezbollah. The strategy of the Lebanese govt there seems to have been to encourage Hezbollah to enter a constitutional process instead of a military one, by inviting them into Coalition govt. Considering that most Shias vote for them and considering Lebanon's history of sectarianism, this decision was understandible. To exclude them would effectively have meant excluding the Shia from govt. I find it hard to believe that Christians in that govt had a hand in what Hezbollah was doing. The latter essentially controls the South, so is it right to flatten the infrastructure in Lebanon as a whole? The punishment should fit the crime and should not be directed against a population as a whole.

[CanDo]

Yesterday 70 Iraqis were blown up. No one noticed. Know why? NII (No Israelis Involved). Not even the Arab world can muster the energy to get angry over this kind of thing.


The Arab world views this as a victory. Arabs can brag that Arabs have a better way of lowering unemployment.

[AppleEater]

So what's your point? China's public debt - non performing is probably 5x GDP. Most EU states hover in the 70% range. Direct US military aid accounts for 1.8-1.9 billion a year or about 1.4% of GDP; or about 9-11% of the total defence budget.


My point is that Israel is not a self-sufficient financial and military entity. It depends heavily on US forreign aid to not only provide military weapons and armaments, but also to help it reduce its annual deficit. If the US were at any time to tighten its aid to Isreal, say, in the even of a major war, Israel would be in serious trouble both militarily in the short run, and economically in the long run.

And you're wrong about China's public debt. No nation has a public debt > 200% GDP. That's absurd.

[CanDo]

My point is that Israel is not a self-sufficient financial and military entity. It depends heavily on US forreign aid to not only provide military weapons and armaments, but also to help it reduce its annual deficit.

Israel also provides the U.S. with enhancements to military weapon systems and defense systems, plus cures for diseases and wonderful inventions. A short while ago, Israel invented a novel new bandage, called the Israeli Bandage, which is saving the lives of US soldiers in Iraq.

That's what friends are for! :D

Arabs also get a lot of aid from American and a lot of oil revenues. Why do the Arabs have such a low standard of living? Why are Arabs so backward and uneducated? Why do the Arabs have such a culture of death and destruction?

[Dhimmi-England]

Media polls increasingly and disturbingly show a willingness of the Israeli public to consider Palestinian transference. This mirrors the German public opinion that allowed Nazi attrocities to occur.

Patronisingly offensive to suggest such a thing. The nazi holocaust which you so flippantly refer to was not based on public opinion unless you're suggesting that German Jews, who were members of the public, actually thought it was a great idea. Try reading a book.



The free world, indeed all peoples of conscience across the world, cannot and should not tolerate the threat to existence of an entire people.


Quite, it quite shocking that so many people should be so happy to see the endless, and pointless, attempt to destroy Israel.



The Palestinians have the overwhelming support of the UN/ international community. The same way that the Jewish people, had the League of Nations full support in 1945-47.

No they don't and no they didn't. Try reading two books.

[AppleEater]

Israel also provides the U.S. with enhancements to military weapon systems and defense systems, plus cures for diseases and wonderful inventions. A short while ago, Israel invented a novel new bandage, called the Israeli Bandage, which is saving the lives of US soldiers in Iraq.

That's what friends are for! :D

Arabs also get a lot of aid from American and a lot of oil revenues. Why do the Arabs have such a low standard of living? Why are Arabs so backward and uneducated? Why do the Arabs have such a culture of death and destruction?

I agree with you there. The Israelis are quite technologically renowned and certainly industrious, but this is not my point.

The fact remains that Israel does, and will for years to come, depend highly on US foreign aid and military.

[superspd8]

My country is the Republic of Ireland.



Agreed but I disagree with the Church on many issues and their stance at various times shouldn't be automatically take as the view of Catholics generally. Especially nowadays e.g. Spain has legalised gay marriage incurring the wrath of the Church.



I have heard on the radio and Sky that after the "get out" leaflets were dropped, those trying to leave are often bombed. In particular, on Sky News a few days ago, they mentioned that a convoy they were travelling in was hit and they showed injuries of others on the convoy. Also remember that there is a problem in that if Israel is saying people living south of the Litani river should leave, that the destruction of 63 bridges might make accomplishing that rather difficult...On Hamas and Hezbollah voters, could the same have been said about those voting for Menachem Begin who blew up the King David Hotel? Your country recently celebrated the attack on the King David Hotel. It is ironic then that you fail to understand that in the eyes of the Palestinians, Hamas are their freedom fighters, just as Israelis saw Irgun and the Stern Gang as theirs. The old saying springs to mind "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". The context in which Hamas came to power is also important. There were no negotiations. I am not a fan of Hamas, and I despise their suicide bombings against civilians. But they stopped that some time ago. But if they attack Israeli troops in the West Bank, then international law is on their side under UN Security Council Resolution 242 which requires the return of the territories seized by Israel in 1967. The rights or wrongs of that war are irrelevant to the fact that these territories should be returned and that is international law, and since Israel is lecturing Lebanon on implementing UN Resolution 1559 on disarming Hezbollah, surely consistency demands it also implement the resolutions it is in violation of.

Before the King David was blown up, the Brits were called and told it was being blown up and that they should evacuate. The Brit commander replied the the effect that "No Jew si going to tell me what to do".

OK I have just read it. It states:

This has been the complaint of conventional armies fighting guerillas from time immemorial. Considering you are invading their country, I feel little sympathy with that argument because they are hardly going to show themselves to you like gentlemen when there's only a few hundred of them and hundreds of thousands of IDF. These sorts of tactics were also used by Israel in 1948 to defeat the Arabs so you cannot credibly complain. Hit and run is the only way for small countries to beat huge armies.

I am not complaining. I am just saying that if you operate amongst civilians, there will be dead civilians.

Israel also has military censorship so are you going to condemn that too?

Having Censorship is not the same as lying and havign fake casualties.

Yes but I see a moral equivalence with the IDF. Also, very few people have been killed by the Katyushas relative to Lebanese and even fewer since 2000.

It doesn't amtter that less ahve been killed. THere are less because the katushas are fired at cities and accuracy doesn't count. THe other reason is that about a million Jews fled (jsut like Lebanese have fled) and Israel ahs had to build bomb shelters in every hosue.

Yes and I condemn the IDF using missiles containing phoshorous designed to cause facial burns to survivors, as revealed in the Lebanese hospitals where doctors reported a smell of phosphorous and facial burns were shown in children.

The Phosperhous story is not true. There is no evidence.

Don't agree with it but Syrian territory (Golan) is still being occupied so its understandible but I would feel it should only be used against the forces of occupation not random attacks on civilians (which I accept is happening).

Syria is in a state of war with Israel, refuses to make peace. Actually it is actively engaged in the war, supplying Hizbullah with rockets.

Why should Israel give anything back now that "Land for Peace" turns out to be "Land for war"? Time for new slogan: "Peace for Land".

And, pelase don;t forget the Iranian componnent to all of this.

I think the killing of 19 civilians on the Gaza beach was a factor behind it. Also ceasefires agreed with Israel in the past have always been broken by Israel, including the continuation of "targeted killings" which is a breach of faith. I also think the absence of negotiations played a role.

The 19 dead civilians on the Gaza beach weren't killed by Israel. It was not Israeli weaponry.

Did your press show that the girl who ran out from the sea was perfectly dry? Did you ntoice how ambulances were standing by for the disaster?

The reality is that it was probably a Hamas land mine. I presume you don't know that because your fair and balanced European press wouldn't think of covering it. Speaking of which, the original reprort was 56 dead at Qana. The Red Cross now says 28 (still horrible). Do you think your press will repor that? keep an eye out for it.

I despise Sharia including treatment of gay people but we can't all be the same. I don't think we have a right to impose Western values on other countries by military force.

We did that with Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Why shouldn't we try to end the barbaric pracitcie of Honor Killing? Why should you be tolerant of that but not toleran of Israel protecting itself?

Israel's existence is not under threat that is just propaganda and indicative of a 1948-67 timewarp. Israel is the strongest power in the region, with 1,100 fighter jets (2nd largest airforce in world), 4,000 tanks, 148,000 standing army and 500,000 reserves. Then you have the nukes too. No country is going to invade a country with nuclear weapons.

Everyone of these groups plus Syria and Iran are threatening israels existance. I guess you think Arabs are liars and don;t mean what they say in their speaches and charters.



The Syrian army was still occupying Lebanon until around 1 yr ago and would not allow Lebanon to do that. They only left last year but Syria had previously restructured the Lebanese army in favour of Shias, who might have been unwilling to disarm Hezbollah. The strategy of the Lebanese govt there seems to have been to encourage Hezbollah to enter a constitutional process instead of a military one, by inviting them into Coalition govt. Considering that most Shias vote for them and considering Lebanon's history of sectarianism, this decision was understandible. To exclude them would effectively have meant excluding the Shia from govt. I find it hard to believe that Christians in that govt had a hand in what Hezbollah was doing. The latter essentially controls the South, so is it right to flatten the infrastructure in Lebanon as a whole? The punishment should fit the crime and should not be directed against a population as a whole.

My comemnts are in blue

[Reffo]

I'd say that Canada is even more dependent on the US militarily.

[European2006]

The 19 dead civilians on the Gaza beach weren't killed by Israel. It was not Israeli weaponry.


Well I have heard on either Sky or CNN today that this Israeli claim is unproven, and that according to an Israeli newspaper there was no Hezbollah involvement in Qana.

[AppleEater]

I'd say that Canada is even more dependent on the US militarily.

Canada doesn't need the military Israel does. We're a peace-keeping nation and we don't make international enemies.

[superspd8]

Well I have heard on either Sky or CNN today that this Israeli claim is unproven, and that according to an Israeli newspaper there was no Hezbollah involvement in Qana.

The palestinian claim is unproven, so why do you assume that Israel is the guilty party? No oen can dispute that the girl who came out of the water is dry.

You also know that Palestinains send their chidlren out to explode. They are willing to sacrifice (and I mean sacrifice, not risk) them for the cause.

[superspd8]

Canada doesn't need the military Israel does. We're a peace-keeping nation and we don't make international enemies.

Canada doesn't need the Military does becasue Canada is protected by the United States (as is europe).

Canada has the United States as a neighbor. Israel has Hamas, Hezbullah, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Right now, Syria and Iran are using Lebanon as the Nazis used Spain in 1936: to test tactics and weapons. Israel is replying to the Iranian threat: if you attack us, you will be severely damaged or destroyed.

You are making one mistake. Canada doesn't have to make enemies. The Jiahdists attack anyone they want. And, with their desire to cotnrol the world, that will include Canada.

[Reffo]

Canada doesn't need the military Israel does. We're a peace-keeping nation and we don't make international enemies.Actually, Canada is a bloodthirsty aggressor. In WW2 they sent forces to fight the peace loving nations of Japan and Germany who never attacked or provoked Canada. Lucky for them they had US military support.

The above makes as much sense as your post about Israel.

[AppleEater]

Actually, Canada is a bloodthirsty aggressor. In WW2 they sent forces to fight the peace loving nations of Japan and Germany who never attacked or provoked Canada. Lucky for them they had US military support.

The above makes as much sense as your post about Israel.

?

Canada signed the patriation of the Canadian Constitution in 1982 which made its independence from Britain official. Prior to that, Canada was a British colony, so it is only natural that Canada would have declared war on Germany one day after Britain. As both Germany and Japan were signed in a Tripatriate Act, Canada had to declare war on Japan as well.

[Reffo]

Thanks for clearing that one up for me Applefinder. So I take it that if you were in charge of Canada at the outbreak of WW2, you'd have ensured that Canada stayed out of the war? Or maybe even entered on the side of say Japan?

[European2006]

The palestinian claim is unproven, so why do you assume that Israel is the guilty party? No oen can dispute that the girl who came out of the water is dry.

You also know that Palestinains send their chidlren out to explode. They are willing to sacrifice (and I mean sacrifice, not risk) them for the cause.

Which shows how desperate they must be with all the poverty and resentment at the occupation. The economy is collapsing because of a nonsense whereby the US has bullied the EU into with-holding aid to the Palestinian govt, meaning public-servants aren't getting paid. History is full of examples of chaos resulting from this. Whatever you think of Hamas, they are an elected govt and it's better to include them in a peace process rather than having them outside of the tent throwing grenades in in the future.

[Reffo]

Canada doesn't need the military Israel does. We're a peace-keeping nation and we don't make international enemies.You couldn't be more wrong AppleEater. I pity people who deceive themselves as you do.

Let me enlighten you: Canadian soldiers are operating in Afghanistan in opposition to Al Quaida and the Taliban. Don't you think they consider you as their enemy? And in case you are not aware how they deal with their enemies then just look at what they did to innocent Australian and other holiday makers in Bali. And please don't say that it was because of Iraq because their Bali atrocity was perpetrated in 2002, before the invasion of Iraq.

[Reffo]

Which shows how desperate they must be with all the poverty and resentment at the occupation. The economy is collapsing because of a nonsense whereby the US has bullied the EU into with-holding aid to the Palestinian govt, meaning public-servants aren't getting paid. History is full of examples of chaos resulting from this. Whatever you think of Hamas, they are an elected govt and it's better to include them in a peace process rather than having them outside of the tent throwing grenades in in the future.Oh, I'm sure they are desperate. I'm also sure they have bad lives as well but I put it to you that they as a people, as a consequence of irresponsible leadership and elites, are the authors of their own misfortune. To put it bluntly, they have made historical mistakes by opposing the national aspirations of another oppressed people and they lost their own state because they wanted to deprive the Jews of theirs. Since then, they could have compromised and got their own state but they don't seem to find the courage to deal with reality. Of course, another factor is that other Arab states treated the Palestinians as pawns and that didn't help them either....

Now, with regards to your point about their "desperation" and how that explains how they treat their children....With respect to you, that's just BS!!! You want to know why? Because other people have been at least as desperate as the Palestinians.....the Jews for one. And can you tell me how come they didn't abuse their children that way, even in their darkest days when everything seemed hopeless? Nor am I aware of any other people who reacted that way and the Palestinians are not the only people who were ever desperate!!!!

The reality is that I blame their leaders for it who instead of trying to find ways out of the national quagmire, they have been stoking the fires of hatred. They have been brainwashing their hapless people for generations. And for what? For a misplaced sense of national pride and glory, instead of raising their youth to try and better themselves, they have been grooming them for death, sacrifice and martyrdom. Those irresponsible leaders created a death cult and you know in your heart that's true!

[superspd8]

Which shows how desperate they must be with all the poverty and resentment at the occupation. The economy is collapsing because of a nonsense whereby the US has bullied the EU into with-holding aid to the Palestinian govt, meaning public-servants aren't getting paid. History is full of examples of chaos resulting from this. Whatever you think of Hamas, they are an elected govt and it's better to include them in a peace process rather than having them outside of the tent throwing grenades in in the future.

No,it doesn't show that at all. Read the Charters of Hamas and the PLO/Fatah.

Arafat would never, ever agree to any borders for to do that would be to explicitly recognize Israel. He would not do that to a country he was determined to destroy.

Jsut because a terrorist organization is elected to run the government (just like the Nazis), doesn't mean you have to recognize it, support it or finance it. Aid is not a right.

How can you include Hamas in a peace process?

Read the Hamas Charter: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Here are some select passages from their charter:

Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: “Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.” From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.” Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: “The people of Syria are Allah’s whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow.” (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

[Titus]

Yesterday 70 Iraqis were blown up. No one noticed. Know why? NII (No Israelis Involved). Not even the Arab world can muster the energy to get angry over this kind of thing.


No the reason is simple: people have been blowing each other up in Iraq for a long time, it just doesn't get as good ratings any more so it isn't given much media attention. Israel hasn't been killing civilians for as long as the current Iraq conflict.... or has it.....:rolleyes:

[superspd8]

IDF: Intel. failure caused Kana deaths


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JPost.com Staff, THE JERUSALEM POST Aug. 3, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The IDF inquiry into the Kana incident in which civilians were killed as a building collapsed released its final conclusions Thursday morning.

Two missiles, the only one of which exploded, hit the building on July 30. The army said that they had operated according to information that "the building was not inhabited by civilians and was being used as a hiding place for terrorists." Had they known that civilians were in the building, the attack would not have been carried out.

The IDF spokesperson noted that the building had been targeted only after residents had been warned to evacuate through various media, and that the building was adjacent to areas from which rockets had been launched towards Israel. Other buildings in the area had been targeted with no civilian casualties.

On Wednesday, both the Lebanese Health Ministry and the Human Rights Watch said that they could confirm only 28 of the originally reported 57 civilians who died in the building. Of the 28 that they confirmed, 16 were children.

There have been claims on an anti-Syrian Lebanese Web site and various weblogs that Hizbullah "staged" the tragedy, bringing in dead bodies or live disabled children who would be killed in an Israeli bombing after seeing the rocket launchers.

Paul Conneally, the Irish national who is deputy head of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Israel and the Palestinian Authority and is the person assigned to deal with Lebanese matters, said he could not say exactly how many bodies were taken out and how many died there. He had no information about whether anyone had autopsied the bodies to determine the causes of death.

In the IDF's report, Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz said that while the IDF places itself as a shield between Hizbullah and Israeli citizens, Hizbullah places Lebanese civilians as a shield between itself and the IDF.

He also ordered that guidelines for opening fire against suspicious targets be evaluated and updated immediately.

Since the beginning of the conflict, over 150 rockets have been launched from within the village of Kana itself and areas adjacent to it.

[Titus]

So in other words they regularly fudge 'intel'? Is Israel seriously going to pretend it has 'intel' on every civilian and UN target it hits?

[superspd8]

So in other words they regularly fudge 'intel'? Is Israel seriously going to pretend it has 'intel' on every civilian and UN target it hits?

No, they aren't pretending. They do. Taht soemtiems they are wrong happens to all intelligence agencies.

Do you think the Palestinains have any intel at all on where they are sending their rockets? How about where they try and send the exploding, virgin-seeking children?

[Titus]

So you are seriously suggesting the IDF has detailed info on every house it kills, every ambulance it bombs, and so on? They don't, there simply isn't that much time to get the info. They are using guesswork in a best case scenario.

[superspd8]

So you are seriously suggesting the IDF has detailed info on every house it kills, every ambulance it bombs, and so on? They don't, there simply isn't that much time to get the info. They are using guesswork in a best case scenario.

You have nothing to abck ujp your statement.

I suggest that you watch

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=Obsession%3A+What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+Ab out&pr=goog-sl&hl=en

And understand the war agaisnt us. You are a Kufar, aren't you?

[Titus]

Kufar [sic] is actually spelt Kuffar, but no I am not (and I am assuming you are using it in a literal rather than religious context). I acknowledge the terrorist attacks by Hezbollah. It is you who is a kuffar denying the terrorist attacks by the IDF.

[superspd8]

Kufar [sic] is actually spelt Kuffar, but no I am not (and I am assuming you are using it in a literal rather than religious context). I acknowledge the terrorist attacks by Hezbollah. It is you who is a kuffar denying the terrorist attacks by the IDF.

Titus:

I am using it in the Muslim context: are you Muslim?

I am a Kuffar because I am not Muslim. This has nothing to do with what Israel does or does not do.

I also assume that you choose the screen name "Titus" in clebration of Roman emporer Titus who destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem in AD 79.

[Titus]

So by kuffar do you mean a 'denier' or a non-muslim? I ask this because my religion really isn't important to the debate. But if you must know I am not a Muslim.

[CanDo]

Israel hasn't been killing civilians for as long as the current Iraq conflict.... or has it.....:rolleyes:

Israel has been killing civilians for decades. The difference between the civilized, more advanced Israeli side and your side is that Israel doesn't deliberately target or torture civilians. Your side commits all kinds of subhuman atrocities on civilians. Israel must fight against a deranged Islamic enemy that hides behind women and children. Your side uses civilians as shields and as suicide bombers. Your side uses rape as a weapon against men, women and children. Your side beheads captured civilians and shows the videotape on the Internet. Your side blows up schools buses filled with children.

You, obviously, don't get upset by the subhuman, inhumane and perverted acts of your side, so I am not impressed by your false, dishonest sense of piety against Israel's attempts to defend itself against your deranged Islamic beasts.

[Mediocrates]

Again, if Canada wants to realign itself then that is Canada's issue to deal with. I always wonder what ANY of these token 'peacekeeping and multilateral forces represent to the countries that send them. What's the point? Only yesterday the EU stated that all of its prior demands notwithstanding most of its states were in no position to send troops to Lebanon. Particularly Germany and France. In the meantime there are almost 20,000 EU and UN troops in Congo watching that their presidential election doesn't explode. But states like Spain made a huge deal over its token presence in Iraq. A few hundred troops watching toolsheds. OK. I really don't see the point of it.

[superspd8]

Again, if Canada wants to realign itself then that is Canada's issue to deal with. I always wonder what ANY of these token 'peacekeeping and multilateral forces represent to the countries that send them. What's the point? Only yesterday the EU stated that all of its prior demands notwithstanding most of its states were in no position to send troops to Lebanon. Particularly Germany and France. In the meantime there are almost 20,000 EU and UN troops in Congo watching that their presidential election doesn't explode. But states like Spain made a huge deal over its token presence in Iraq. A few hundred troops watching toolsheds. OK. I really don't see the point of it.


The point of it is all image. it is to pretend that you really care and you are really working for something.

Europe doesn't have an army to field. THey relied on America to protect them from the Soviet Union.

All that aside, why should Israel trust ANY itnernational force. The UN aided Hizbuillah. Hell they passed a resolution to siarm them. Not nly weren't they disarmed, the UN looked the toehr wayh while they built up their rocket arsenal from iran.

Look at their dismal behavior in Iraq. Spain got attacked by the Jihadists and voted the Coward aprty and withdrew their troops from Iraq. What will happen when Hizbullah shoots an EUJ "peacekeeper" and blwos up another train? Bye Bye peacekeepers.

In 1967, Nasser asked the UN to withdraw peacekeepers fromt he Sinai so he could bring his forces to bear on israel. the UN, thinking Israel woujld lose, said OK and expedited the removal.

In the end, Israel can only rely on Israel.

[AppleEater]

Again, if Canada wants to realign itself then that is Canada's issue to deal with. I always wonder what ANY of these token 'peacekeeping and multilateral forces represent to the countries that send them. What's the point? Only yesterday the EU stated that all of its prior demands notwithstanding most of its states were in no position to send troops to Lebanon. Particularly Germany and France. In the meantime there are almost 20,000 EU and UN troops in Congo watching that their presidential election doesn't explode. But states like Spain made a huge deal over its token presence in Iraq. A few hundred troops watching toolsheds. OK. I really don't see the point of it.

And that's the reason why Israel has so many enemies -- because it really doesn't see the point in peacekeeping.

Look, I'm not going to beleager you, because many of your posts show intellect and forethought. But you are all wrong in your statement that peacekeeping is pointless. When peacekeeping is well done, and done so in a manner that it is not degrading to either of the parties involved in conflict, it allows for the opening of diplomatic channels.

Isreal thinks it's the only country that's surrounded by opponents that despise and an to extinguish them -- that's simply not true. Let's take Bosnia for instance. Here, we have three peoples coming together that virulently hate one another. That hatred spans many centuries, going back easily to the begginnings of Ottoman rule and quite possibly earlier. It is clear that all sides (Serb, Croat and Albanian) were adamant to wipe each other out. Atorcities were found on every side. Neither recognized the other as deserving to exist. So all three parties were engaged in outright genocide.

When I first went to the region, I thought that Hitler was still alive. What we found was abhorrent; mass graves, flattened cities and villages, women and children living in utter poverty (Yugosalvia was not a 3rd world country prior to this war). We thought there was no hope for any of these people. I could not sleep for days and the imagery made be throw up constantly. But we worked together through the UN with other members of the international community and the parties involved, and, in time, and after having earned some trust amongst the parties through peaceful presence, we managed to open up the diplomatic dialogue between them. And after some concessions on all sides, that region has managed to build peace amongst themselves. It did not require all out extermination for peace to be achieved.

Is their hatred for one another still alive? Sure. Lots of people died miserable deaths on every side. That will not be forgotten, perhaps not even forgiven. But with an international peace keeping force, we managed to have these three distinct peoples separated from one another and we police the area constantly. This has stopped war and opened the future up for forgiveness. Just imagine what LA would look like if there were no police -- same idea.

So you can snide Canada for its leadership in international peacekeeing, but the fact remains that these nations respect our willingness to help them and those actions don't go unnoticed. Together with others, we worked and succeeded in bringing peace and stability to that region of the world. Those people now have their own countries where they can thrive and flourish. They are even working together with each other now in economic and trade matters. Most Canadians are very proud of this. Unlike some other G8 nations, Canada and others are not being criticised for their military actions interationally, nor do terrorist groups target them en masse. This proves that if you really give to someone with little expected in return, then you have earned a friend.

[Mediocrates]

And that's the reason why Israel has so many enemies -- because it really doesn't see the point in peacekeeping.


Facts and history speak for themselves. Maybe this works in other circumstances. Though my contacts in Africa for the last 20-30 years would conclude that peacekeeping is largely a waste of time there too. As it was in Bosnia, Sri Lanka and other places.



Look, I'm not going to beleager you, because many of your posts show intellect and forethought. But you are all wrong in your statement that peacekeeping is pointless. When peacekeeping is well done, and done so in a manner that it is not degrading to either of the parties involved in conflict, it allows for the opening of diplomatic channels.


In theory yes. As a practical matter no.



Isreal thinks it's the only country that's surrounded by opponents that despise and an to extinguish them -- that's simply not true. Let's take Bosnia for instance. Here, we have three peoples coming together that virulently hate one another. That hatred spans many centuries, going back easily to the begginnings of Ottoman rule and quite possibly earlier. It is clear that all sides (Serb, Croat and Albanian) were adamant to wipe each other out. Atorcities were found on every side. Neither recognized the other as deserving to exist. So all three parties were engaged in outright genocide.


But these are not abstractions or vague feelings. Fully one third of the total output of the entire UN has been dedicated to the elimination of Israel. The so called nonaligned bloc is 68 countries of mostly Muslim influence who's public policies generally include the nonrecognition a/o the complete extinction of Israel. Israel has been in 6.5 wars since its foundation. It has been in conflict nonstop for the last 24 years. It withdrew from Lebanon and 6 months later the intifada began. It withdrew from Gaza and that resulted in near zero reduction in violence. Israel is confronting a near-next door neighbor trying to build atomic weapons who's stated foreign policy is to exterminate Israel with atomic weapons the day they acquire them.



When I first went to the region, I thought that Hitler was still alive. What we found was abhorrent; mass graves, flattened cities and villages, women and children living in utter poverty (Yugosalvia was not a 3rd world country prior to this war). We thought there was no hope for any of these people. I could not sleep for days and the imagery made be throw up constantly. But we worked together through the UN with other members of the international community and the parties involved, and, in time, and after having earned some trust amongst the parties through peaceful presence, we managed to open up the diplomatic dialogue between them. And after some concessions on all sides, that region has managed to build peace amongst themselves. It did not require all out extermination for peace to be achieved.


Do you think that the Arab world would put up with a UN viceroy with absolute power like Paddy Ashdown in Bosnia for Lebanon? I do not. But unfortunately that's what it took to stabilize the Balkans. BTW the EU is calling for complete independence for Kosovo as a condition for Serbian entrance into the EU. They are dictating the dissolution of a country.



So you can snide Canada for its leadership in international peacekeeing, but the fact remains that these nations respect our willingness to help them and those actions don't go unnoticed.


It's not snide - I question their motives.

[European2006]

Arafat would never, ever agree to any borders for to do that would be to explicitly recognize Israel. He would not do that to a country he was determined to destroy.

Jsut because a terrorist organization is elected to run the government (just like the Nazis), doesn't mean you have to recognize it, support it or finance it. Aid is not a right.

How can you include Hamas in a peace process?

People were saying in the past "How can you talk to the IRA? They killed 1,800 people etc.". Guess what the British and the main Unionist party did. Result? Bombs aren't going off in England or Northern Ireland any more. Making comparisons with the Nazis is an example of Godwin's Law * btw. I am unaware that Hamas has plans to invade Russia and 20 other countries. So please cut the hyperbole about Nazis because from what I can see Israel's territorial expansion owes much to ideas of "living space" which the Nazis believed in too.

I resent this belligerence and warmongering.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

* The law states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

[Seblevy]

UN peacekeeping usually constitutes nothing more than a passive presence under a UN flag and UN mandate and its success is entirely dependent on the two sides respecting the ceasefire or mandate handed down by the UN political institution. The deployment of peacekeepers prior to a respected ceasefire from both sides would be lunacy for the UN to even contemplate and based on past history it is a mistake it will surely not want to repeat - remember back in Srebrenica 1995 when Dutch troops under the UN flag were helpless, humiliated and walked away - genocide ensued under one of the darkest UN clouds of all time. Any side unwilling to observe a ceasefire prior to the arrival of peacekeepers should not expect any foreign nation to even contemplate putting forces to the area. What's more, peacekeeping should be just that - keeping and defending the peace which would include UN military intervention as determined by the force on the ground to halt unlawful incursions across the peace boundaries defined by whatever UN resolution the UN force are deployed under.

In reality the deployment of peacekeepers happens when the two warring factions are at the point of realising that they cannot win the war. Rather than have to admit this it is a much more convenient and less embarrassing perspective to settle for a political settlement which was 'enforced' upon them politically. For a multitude of reasons neither side can win this particular war and ultimately they will both settle for a UN solution sooner rather than later - of course unless the external nations supporting the two sides intervene even more directly than they currently are doing and seek to extend the war and even to escalate it. Although both sides will claim to make their own decisions, the reins to this conflict lie in the hands of the wider powers that be - Washington and Tehran.

Seb

[superspd8]

And that's the reason why Israel has so many enemies -- because it really doesn't see the point in peacekeeping.

Look, I'm not going to beleager you, because many of your posts show intellect and forethought. But you are all wrong in your statement that peacekeeping is pointless. When peacekeeping is well done, and done so in a manner that it is not degrading to either of the parties involved in conflict, it allows for the opening of diplomatic channels.

Isreal thinks it's the only country that's surrounded by opponents that despise and an to extinguish them -- that's simply not true. Let's take Bosnia for instance. Here, we have three peoples coming together that virulently hate one another. That hatred spans many centuries, going back easily to the begginnings of Ottoman rule and quite possibly earlier. It is clear that all sides (Serb, Croat and Albanian) were adamant to wipe each other out. Atorcities were found on every side. Neither recognized the other as deserving to exist. So all three parties were engaged in outright genocide.

When I first went to the region, I thought that Hitler was still alive. What we found was abhorrent; mass graves, flattened cities and villages, women and children living in utter poverty (Yugosalvia was not a 3rd world country prior to this war). We thought there was no hope for any of these people. I could not sleep for days and the imagery made be throw up constantly. But we worked together through the UN with other members of the international community and the parties involved, and, in time, and after having earned some trust amongst the parties through peaceful presence, we managed to open up the diplomatic dialogue between them. And after some concessions on all sides, that region has managed to build peace amongst themselves. It did not require all out extermination for peace to be achieved.

Is their hatred for one another still alive? Sure. Lots of people died miserable deaths on every side. That will not be forgotten, perhaps not even forgiven. But with an international peace keeping force, we managed to have these three distinct peoples separated from one another and we police the area constantly. This has stopped war and opened the future up for forgiveness. Just imagine what LA would look like if there were no police -- same idea.

So you can snide Canada for its leadership in international peacekeeing, but the fact remains that these nations respect our willingness to help them and those actions don't go unnoticed. Together with others, we worked and succeeded in bringing peace and stability to that region of the world. Those people now have their own countries where they can thrive and flourish. They are even working together with each other now in economic and trade matters. Most Canadians are very proud of this. Unlike some other G8 nations, Canada and others are not being criticised for their military actions interationally, nor do terrorist groups target them en masse. This proves that if you really give to someone with little expected in return, then you have earned a friend.

Let us give this some thought. Let's look at peacekeeping through Israeli eyes. Peacekeeping as it involves Israel has been a 100% failure:


After the 1956 war, the U.S. and other coutnries promised to keep the straights of Tiran open. A UN Peacekeeping force was installed in the Sinai. Nasser asked the UN to remove the Peacekeepers so he couold move his forces into the Sinai and make war. The UN complied.
After withdrawal from Lebanon, UNIFIL (United nations Impotent Farce in Lebanon) was created. For 6 years it watched Hizbullah build up its weapons and battlefield. It never made a report even though Israeli papers have been reporting the missile buildup for years.
Outside of israel, UN Peacekeepers have a hsitory of protecting no one, raping women and children, feeding women and children to people who massacre them.

Forget wether it is degrading to one of the parties or not. It jsut isn;t being done.

When y ou are surrounded by enemies sworn to kill you, it doesn't really matter that other countries are also. All the talk abut negotiating and peacekeepers is secodnary to the task of staying alive.

Despite what people say, their is a hugh amount of anti-Semitism involved in all of this. Israel kills civilians with embedded terrorists and the world ahs a hissy fit. Every day, Muslims kill about 100 other Muslims in Iraq and the world doesn't say a word.

Persoanlly, I have lost a lot of sympthy for people who elect terrorists, start wars and then get themselves killed.

I have no patience for neutrality, pacifists and the phony human rights organizations who NEVER complain about what Jihadists do.

[rahon]

Really? Could you demonstrate that please? with facts. Or just send the 'research' staff from Counterpunch over. Thanks.Mediocrates,I know you are clever enough to know very well that america is helping you with billions worth of armaments and free money transferts,every year,now if you are not aware of it,this is too bad!!!

[Illuminatus]

....and so says Eurropean2006:

[.. People were saying in the past "How can you talk to the IRA? They killed 1,800 people etc.". Guess what the British and the main Unionist party did.Result? Bombs aren't going off in England or Northern Ireland any more...]

The analogy ends when European2006 honestly looks at heart and nature Islamo-Terrorism -- there is no comparison between the IRA/Northern Ireland conflict and the global war on Islamo-Terrorism.

Members of the IRA simply accepted that their goal of a united Ireland must be achieved through politics and it was't through some sort of "magical enlightment" from on high either.

Just a cold calculated, rational realization that terror will get them nothing.

Senator George J. Mitchell (D) of Maine pretty much brokered the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 but, that in itself did not end the hostilities. What ended the terror was that incident in which Robert McCartney was murdered in a Belfast city centre pub, in front of 70 witnesses.

Nobody came forward to the police. Why? Because McCartney was murdered by a local commander of the Irish Republican Army, after an argument about a business deal turned nasty. Terror and fear will do that even to good and honet people.

The news spread like wild fire to the US and idealistic Irish expats and descendents who raised $millions for IRA causes were now suddenly severely scrutinized on local TV and newspapers -- everything changed in the USA. No more winks and a nod for donations.

Even Senator Kennedy read Gerry Adams the "riot act" when he came for the annual St. Patrick fesitvities.

The shift followed growing revulsion among the Irish Catholic supporters in the United States, at the IRA's involvement in organized crime and, since Sept. 11, 2001, at global terrorism.

The IRA ended terrorism becuase it realized a sense of moral clarity.

They accepted the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 which says that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom until a majority living there votes otherwise, dashing the republican tenet that it was an illegitimate state that had to be overthrown -- and to overthrow it, they needed to terrorize.

^_^

[Mediocrates]

Mediocrates,I know you are clever enough to know very well that america is helping you with billions worth of armaments and free money transferts,every year,now if you are not aware of it,this is too bad!!!

Well it's largely a matter of scale isn't it? We give Egypt 2.3 billion a year. We pay for half of Korea's defence budget. We sell or give billions worth of equipment to Saudi Arabia. This is pure mythology that Israel is a fake country that wouldn't exist without US money. Israel for instance is the 4th largest arms exporter in the world and a major exporter of fruit.

[rahon]

In the war of 1948 there were 140,000 Jewish fighters versus 660,000 Arabs fighters. On December 5, 1947, the U.S. imposed an arms embargo on both the Jewish and Arab sides. The poorly armed and poorly equiped Jews had trouble getting supplies, while the Arabs had no problem in getting weapons, especially from England. This is well documented.

The relatively small number of brave, poorly armed Jewish men and women fighters defeated the mighty Arab armies. Amazing, wasn't it!? It has been quite embarassing to Arabs, having Jewish women defeating the Arab's best male warriors.

Perhaps Arabs would do better in their backward violent lives if they didn't hold the child molester Mohammed as it's prophet ( raped A'isha, nine years old, year 624).This is what you have learn in your history books,lies upon lies,I repeat,without the support of the west you would not last,more than few days.Another thing,the statistics,you finish everyone of your posts with,ring a bell about your misconceptions and ignorance of the real life truth,it is a proven fact that throught out history all the jews that lived under an islamic rule,have been treated well and the jewish arabs that emigrated to israel did so,under no constraint,THEY HAVE NOT BEEN DRIVEN OUT,THEY LEFT WITH THEIR OWN INITIATIVE,there are still several jewish communities living in arab countries,leading a normal life and prospering,so you spreading these kind of outrageous rubish says a lot about your hypocrisy and the blatant lies you are using to discredit the arabs,you should rather,shift your attention on the europeens,that gassed your people or did they???????????????

[rahon]

Well it's largely a matter of scale isn't it? We give Egypt 2.3 billion a year. We pay for half of Korea's defence budget. We sell or give billions worth of equipment to Saudi Arabia. This is pure mythology that Israel is a fake country that wouldn't exist without US money. Israel for instance is the 4th largest arms exporter in the world and a major exporter of fruit.We ......give billions worth of equipement to.....saudi arabia,surely you don't mean it.

[superspd8]

The islamo-Fascist Jiahdists ahve a stated aim of killing Jews and erasing Israel from Existance. There is nothing to negotiate with them

What could the Jews have negotiated with Hitler? The Manner of death?

Herr Hitler, please! We will let you kill us if you do it quickly and without torturing us or starving us or making move stones until we die a slow, painfujl death.

So, for our dear islamo-Fascist Jihadist foes: if you promise us death, we shall bring death to you. And the worst thing about your death is that yhou will be dead and so you will never know that you don't get virgins: you become dead dirt isntead of living dirt.

[European2006]

....and so says Eurropean2006:

[.. People were saying in the past "How can you talk to the IRA? They killed 1,800 people etc.". Guess what the British and the main Unionist party did.Result? Bombs aren't going off in England or Northern Ireland any more...]

The analogy ends when European2006 honestly looks at heart and nature Islamo-Terrorism -- there is no comparison between the IRA/Northern Ireland conflict and the global war on Islamo-Terrorism.

Members of the IRA simply accepted that their goal of a united Ireland must be achieved through politics and it was't through some sort of "magical enlightment" from on high either.

Just a cold calculated, rational realization that terror will get them nothing.

Senator George J. Mitchell (D) of Maine pretty much brokered the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 but, that in itself did not end the hostilities. What ended the terror was that incident in which Robert McCartney was murdered in a Belfast city centre pub, in front of 70 witnesses.

Nobody came forward to the police. Why? Because McCartney was murdered by a local commander of the Irish Republican Army, after an argument about a business deal turned nasty. Terror and fear will do that even to good and honet people.

The news spread like wild fire to the US and idealistic Irish expats and descendents who raised $millions for IRA causes were now suddenly severely scrutinized on local TV and newspapers -- everything changed in the USA. No more winks and a nod for donations.

Even Senator Kennedy read Gerry Adams the "riot act" when he came for the annual St. Patrick fesitvities.

The shift followed growing revulsion among the Irish Catholic supporters in the United States, at the IRA's involvement in organized crime and, since Sept. 11, 2001, at global terrorism.

The IRA ended terrorism becuase it realized a sense of moral clarity.

They accepted the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 which says that Northern Ireland will remain part of the United Kingdom until a majority living there votes otherwise, dashing the republican tenet that it was an illegitimate state that had to be overthrown -- and to overthrow it, they needed to terrorize.

^_^

I don't know if the McCartney murder should be regarded as part of the conflict, as he was actually part of the Catholic community and an Irish Nationalist. That seems to have been little more than the kind of bar-room brawl that could happen in any country, other than the fact that as the killer happened to be in the IRA, he was able to intimidate the crowd to clean up the scene and keep quiet about what happened. The PSNI (police) said it wasn't actually ordered by the PIRA. It seems to have been some sort of personal row that got out of hand. The last time the IRA killed a member of the Protestant community was years earlier.

However you are correct when you say:


The IRA ended terrorism becuase it realized a sense of moral clarity

You shouldn't rule out that this can also happen with Hamas. The fact that they won the Palestinian elections has to count for something, unless democracy depends on Israel liking the results. And btw I don't accept the propaganda that all these groups are about is "the destruction of Israel". They want the return of Arab lands under Resolution 242.

[Illuminatus]

Excerpts from the Hamas's Covenant (or Charter)
--Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.

--The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

--There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

--After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

and your typical everyday Hizb'Allah (the Party of God) speech
There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel. Peace settlements will not change reality, which is that Israel is the enemy and that it will never be a neighbor or a nation.

Peace will not wipe out the memory of the massacres it has committed ... And on this last day of the century, I promise Israel that it will see more suicide attacks, for we will write our history with bloodhttp://www.unb.ca/web/bruns/9900/issue14/intnews/israel.html

European2006 writes:

[.. The fact that they won the Palestinian elections has to count for something, unless democracy depends on Israel liking the results...]

True, HAMAS won the elections but it also true that it is against the law for the EU, the UN and the US to finance designated terrorist organizations -- thus the severe hardships now endured by the Palestinian people as desparately needed aid has vanished and the HAMAS led government goes broke.

It's not a matter of "Israel liking the results", it's a matter of compliance with the law.

^_^

[Mediocrates]

We ......give billions worth of equipement to.....saudi arabia,surely you don't mean it.


KSA has one of the ten largest defence budgets in the world. They are given insanely discounted terms for state of the art systems from the US which are not available to anyone else. Maintenance for all their F-16's for instance is done by us.

[Mediocrates]

This is what you have learn in your history books,lies upon lies,I repeat,without the support of the west you would not last,more than few days.


show this with facts, thanks.



have been treated well and the jewish arabs that emigrated to israel did so,under no constraint,THEY HAVE NOT BEEN DRIVEN OUT,THEY LEFT WITH THEIR OWN INITIATIVE,


At gunpoint. Look up "Bat Yeor"



there are still several jewish communities living in arab countries,leading a normal life and prospering,


Tunisia, Morocco (5,000 Jews each), Iran (25,000 Jews)



shift your attention on the europeens,that gassed your people or did they???????????????

They eliminated 70% of their Jews, you eliminated 99% of yours.

[oddiedude]

one wonders why is everybody is trying to eliminate jews....

[Mediocrates]

go ahead, out with it..........

[Floyd]

I was not taking sides, only expressing concern over the enormous escalation of violence. And examining the root causes.

Speaking of propaganda, I live in Canada and am fortunate to get balanced news that I believe to be objective. When I follow the US media, I find it leans relatively pro-Israel, to the point where I believe some objectivity is lost. So who is suffering from propaganda? Me or you?

Watch out... soon they'll tell you that you're an antisemite.


Canada has long ago adopted a multicultural policy (we respect all cultures and encourage co-existence) in distinct contrast to the American 'melting pot' (all cultures homogenize to become a singular 'American' culture). Canadians are generally a tolerant lot. I count Jews and Arabs among my friends, neighbors, coworkers. I have heard both sides of almost every argument. I sympathize with Israel in a very fundamental way: a historically persecuted people who are trying to live amidst a hostile Arab world. But there are lines that have been crossed, and to say "who cares what the world thinks" is a dangerous position. Israel is not an isolationist nation, it SHOULD care deeply about what the world thinks... and to act as if the world's perception is irrelevant is naive and ultimately bad for Israel.

Now someone is going to come with some fake picture that shows that Canadians were Hitler's colaborators,


The suicide bombings truly make me sick, the loss of innocent life on either side is intolerable. However, my impression is that Israel ignores the simple fact that these murderous acts are in response to the oppression and humiliation heaped on the Palestinians.

True!


There is CAUSALITY here which is being ignored. The 'cause' is Israeli oppression/ refusal to leave what everyone else considers to be legitimate Palestinian land; the 'effect' is suicide bombings. This then becomes the new 'cause'... for which the 'effect' is Israeli military action. But the justification for this military action is less defensible when the 'cause' for this effect (ie. suicide bombings) is in reality an 'effect' of a more fundamental 'cause' (Israeli occupation).

That is what i was warning them at. If it continues with the "causes" very soon there is going to be a "cause" for the WWIII! I dont want to be in the last generation on earth,


Increasingly, I believe the world is afraid that Israel and Palestine are slowly abandoning the notion that they may live alongside one another peacefully. The repercussions of today's actions will likely continue for generations. One cannot hammer down the will of these people... they feel desperate and have nothing to lose. This type of 'will' is not exclusive to the Palestinians, it is a HUMAN trait, it is a mechanism for survival shared by all people. And the reality is that it can never be completely destroyed.

I've heard a good sentence in some movie: "There is only one instinct that's stronger then the sexual... a survival instict!"


So Israel in order to find lasting security must do one of two things:
Israel must achieve a NEGOTIATED peace in which these people are given some dignity, OR Israel will have to kill every last Palestinian to achieve peace. Since the latter is out of the question, the former is the only solution.

I think they sopport option two, wich automaticly includes killing all the Muslim neighbors, who will try to stop that genocide.

[AppleEater]

Amen.

[superspd8]

However you are correct when you say:

You shouldn't rule out that this can also happen with Hamas. The fact that they won the Palestinian elections has to count for something, unless democracy depends on Israel liking the results. And btw I don't accept the propaganda that all these groups are about is "the destruction of Israel". They want the return of Arab lands under Resolution 242.

This is patently untrue. It is delusional. It is fine for you to not accept it, but when you are the one whom they are saying is going to be killed, well, you can't live in La La land and pretend that they are lying about their intentions.

Is the charter of Hamas propaganda?

Read it at http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Here is the PLO charter: http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plochart.htm

Listen to Ahmadinejad.

As for resolution 242, it says return of land (and the term "all of the land" was specifically not included) in return for a permanent peace. In light of the charters and Ahmadinejad, do you really, really maintain that they want nothing more than the land they lost in 1967 in a war THEY started?

[superspd8]

Hi,
I'm Dutch and I'm hoping someone here can help me. I want to go to Lebanon to help fight the Israelis but I don't have the contacts there. Anyone here who can help me?
If I had lived in the 1930's / 1940's I would have loved to fight against Hitler, but I now see a threat that is equally brutal and I want to help to stop it.
PM me if you can, and let's kill Israel's together!
Erik

Ah, you want to help the iranians rule the world! Good for you.

The Jihadists need more human sacrifices. Take a shortcut. Wrap yourself in a bomb. label it "I want to help Iran rule Lebanon". then go to downtown Amsterdam and blow your self up. I will contribute a trigger.

Oh, don't forget to convert to Islam first. Otherwise you won't get any virgins.

Funny how you don't equate goose-stepping Jihadists who want to kill you with goose-stepping Nazis.

[ofelas]

From Major David Last, Royal Military College of Canada in Kingston, Ontario -

"Not only does Canada need the United States more than ever, but paradoxically, the United States needs Canada in a way that Americans might find surprising. America needs us to go on being uncomfortably Canadian, whether they notice us or not. But we have to expect to pay for influence."

"America needs allies to help it stay engaged globally, to stand up for it in democratic circles, and to stand with it against authoritarianism and terror. It needs friends to tell the American people, in their own language and their own media, what is going on in the world around them and why. Canada is singularly well placed to do this. But we cannot do it by "little-Canada" policies, by anti-Americanism, or by skimping on our international obligations"

"The Canadian opportunity lies in this American ambivalence. A rules-based international order is unquestionably in our interests. We need the United States to feel secure enough to abide by the rules political and economic and to work actively to expand the global economy.With 85 percent of our trade going to the United States, we are more dependent on the global economy than any part of the United States."

"The US population is about 300 million; Canada's is about 30 million. But US forces include about 22 divisions, and Canada's not quite one. Size is less important than capability. In military circles in Canada, we debate whether it is necessary for Canada's army, navy and air forces to be able to work together. We assume that they will only be deployed in coalitions or within alliances as in the past, and therefore they must work well with allies, but a Canadian pilot may never have to talk to a Canadian army forward air controller in operations."

"The choice of peacebuilding over combat is rational for the Canadian Forces because they are comparatively small and weak, by the conscious choice of successive governments, which have had to juggle priorities demanded by Canadian citizens. These choices have stategic implications."

"If we cannot defend Canadian territory, we must accept assistance or risk becoming a vulnerability to our neighbor. We must then manage the assistance our neighbor feels necessary."

[Ricky]

israel is in favor of the first option that you suggest- that is an agreement bringing dignity to both sides. That is why Israel accepted the plan of President Clinton, offered after the failure of the Camp David talks. According to the Clinton plan, Israel would have withdrawn from all of Gaza and from virtually all of the West Bank.
A Palestinian state would have been established in the whole of Gaza and on the equivalent of 96% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected this solution and the bloody conflict continues till today

[AnotherAlly]

israel is in favor of the first option that you suggest- that is an agreement bringing dignity to both sides. That is why Israel accepted the plan of President Clinton, offered after the failure of the Camp David talks. According to the Clinton plan, Israel would have withdrawn from all of Gaza and from virtually all of the West Bank.
A Palestinian state would have been established in the whole of Gaza and on the equivalent of 96% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected this solution and the bloody conflict continues till today

I'll bet old Yasser is looking up from hell laughing at all this, with his white gutra waving around violently, in the hot winds that blow down there.

[superspd8]

I'll bet old Yasser is looking up from hell laughing at all this, with his white gutra waving around violently, in the hot winds that blow down there.

YOu mean Arafat isn't enjoying 72 virgins? Can the virgins get Aids? Can Arafat die twice?

[Eytan]

YOu mean Arafat isn't enjoying 72 virgins? Can the virgins get Aids? Can Arafat die twice?

What have these poor women done to deserve that.. I mean If I were a dead virgin woman knowing that my fate in heaven would be the sex slave to some hairy, unwashed jihadist for all eternity.. I'd prefer hell..

[Womble]

moral highground? israel has no feelings towards those who are not zionists and consider them the "inferior race" as they believe they are carrying out gods duty for him which they believed when they massacred the palestinians and stole their land. murder is zionist history and morals dont come into it. just a matter of time before the world wakes up and sorts out the illegal state of israel.
When you're done telling us what we supposedly think or feel, do bother asking.

[Floyd]

israel is in favor of the first option that you suggest- that is an agreement bringing dignity to both sides. That is why Israel accepted the plan of President Clinton, offered after the failure of the Camp David talks. According to the Clinton plan, Israel would have withdrawn from all of Gaza and from virtually all of the West Bank.
A Palestinian state would have been established in the whole of Gaza and on the equivalent of 96% of the West Bank. Arafat rejected this solution and the bloody conflict continues till today



There is CAUSALITY here which is being ignored. The 'cause' is Israeli oppression/ refusal to leave what everyone else considers to be legitimate Palestinian land; the 'effect' is suicide bombings. This then becomes the new 'cause'... for which the 'effect' is Israeli military action. But the justification for this military action is less defensible when the 'cause' for this effect (ie. suicide bombings) is in reality an 'effect' of a more fundamental 'cause' (Israeli occupation)....................

[user954651]

There is CAUSALITY here which is being ignored. The 'cause' is Israeli oppression/ refusal to leave what everyone else considers to be legitimate Palestinian land; the 'effect' is suicide bombings. This then becomes the new 'cause'... for which the 'effect' is Israeli military action. But the justification for this military action is less defensible when the 'cause' for this effect (ie. suicide bombings) is in reality an 'effect' of a more fundamental 'cause' (Israeli occupation).

This is a perfect demonstration of how the situation has been reframed.

The reality is that the cuase for the conflict is not land, but the anti-Semetic desire to destroy Israel. It was in 1967, and not a thing has changed.

[Floyd]

This is a perfect demonstration of how the situation has been reframed.

The reality is that the cuase for the conflict is not land, but the anti-Semetic desire to destroy Israel. It was in 1967, and not a thing has changed.

Why don'r you try it whwn it's not about land? You think that then they would go after you to your "promised land" (Maybe Grenland)?

[user954651]

Which shows how desperate they must be with all the poverty and resentment at the occupation. The economy is collapsing because of a nonsense whereby the US has bullied the EU into with-holding aid to the Palestinian govt, meaning public-servants aren't getting paid. History is full of examples of chaos resulting from this. Whatever you think of Hamas, they are an elected govt and it's better to include them in a peace process rather than having them outside of the tent throwing grenades in in the future.

I have been following this, and I have to comment on this post.

Occupation is not the cause of the problem.
Occupation is not the cause of the problem.
Israeli's were repeatedly attacked prior to 1967.
Israeli's were repeatedly attacked prior to 1967.
The PLO founding charter in 1964 simply declared a desire to wipe out Israel.
The PLO founding charter in 1964 simply declared a desire to wipe out Israel.
Are you reading?

In 1967 Israel was attacked and offered to return the land it won in self-defence in return for a peace treaty... the Arab's said no. Israel did not annex the land it captured - that is your "occupation". Israel offered to create a state in those areas, has given large areas of land to PLO (a Nazi organisation) control, have armed PLO police forces...

and been shot at in return. We have had over 1000 rockets being launched at civilian areas from Gaza in less than a year. This is not about occupation.

Next - The Nazi's were elected, and Hamas are even more illigitimate and murderous than the Nazi party when they first came to power. They do not want peace. It takes 1 person to make war, and 2 to make peace. The leaders of the Arab people do not want peace, that is why we have war.

[user954651]

Why don'r you try it whwn it's not about land? You think that then they would go after you to your "promised land" (Maybe Grenland)?

, can you please pratice your typing. It is like the cambridge effect (http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/)!

And now you are advocating kicking the Jewish people out of their national homeland! What a er.

Let me rephrase it for your think skull:
You say the cause of the conflict is occupation - that is a fallacy because prior to 1967 (an Arab instigated war) there were still problems. "Occupation" is an excuse for continuing violence, not the reason.


The reason is simply the anti-Semitism in the Arab world. (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null)
It is the sick Arab culture (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=962wmv&ak=null). We are fighting Nazism (http://shoebat.com/media/walidmovie801_1.wmv?PHPSESSID=c7aff99c73fdf15b04f0 c551f7de6ddf#) here, nothing less (http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_01.rm).

[Floyd]

, can you please pratice your typing. It is like the cambridge effect (http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/~mattd/Cmabrigde/)!

And now you are advocating kicking the Jewish people out of their national homeland! What a er.

Let me rephrase it for your think skull:
You say the cause of the conflict is occupation - that is a fallacy because prior to 1967 (an Arab instigated war) there were still problems. "Occupation" is an excuse for continuing violence, not the reason.


The reason is simply the anti-Semitism in the Arab world. (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ClipMediaID=60227&ak=null)
It is the sick Arab culture (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=962wmv&ak=null). We are fighting Nazism (http://shoebat.com/media/walidmovie801_1.wmv?PHPSESSID=c7aff99c73fdf15b04f0 c551f7de6ddf#) here, nothing less (http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_01.rm).

As for typing... I've got a new keyboard so I'm getting used to it.

As for Antisemitism... that's your propaganda. That's like me saying that antiislamism is a reason. Do you really think that people hate you for nothing?
There is so litle of you, and you've allways coused the problems all over the world. That's why everybody was after you through the history & that's why you have no legal land. Why can't you live like all the normal people without couseing the wars, and without useing your lobby on every step?

I thought a lot about Jews , 'couse I just couldn't understand them. I came up with a solution that they are the most natural thing on the Earth 'couse their every step leads to reducing the number of people of Earth. We all know that overpopulation is the bigist and fastist grooveing problem on planet. That is the only logical thing I could come up with for you. You are something like AIDS...

[Titus]

OK... that was a little extreme. He does have a valid point though (to begin with anyway). The Jews have often been invited openly into many cultures around the world. However, almost always some sought of conflict occurs. Alexandria is a very good example. I don't understand how it happens, but it always does. It isn't (often) anti-semitism that causes it, although it may be the result. If the people were anti-semitic they wouldn't have allowed the Jews to arrive in the first place. It's puzzling.

[Floyd]

Well said Titus.

[Bushwacker]

OK... that was a little extreme. He does have a valid point though (to begin with anyway). The Jews have often been invited openly into many cultures around the world. However, almost always some sought of conflict occurs. Alexandria is a very good example. I don't understand how it happens, but it always does. It isn't (often) anti-semitism that causes it, although it may be the result. If the people were anti-semitic they wouldn't have allowed the Jews to arrive in the first place. It's puzzling.

if we take a look at the incident that occured during 1400s when jews driven out of spain they were welcomed to ottoman empire.. that was mostly because of their talent on economy and money stuff... maybe at first people think having jews around is cool.. but later jews become succesful and they start to draw attention and finally become targets...

[Titus]

Success alone is not enough to explain all these occurances. The Jews were not always so successful anyway.

[Reffo]

Floyd, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, I don't know why, the only reason that I can come up with is that you are just too brainwashed and dumb.

Titus, I'm not sure what to make of you yet but my initial thought was that you are just here to troll but some of your posts did actually make half a sense. And I actually think that your above question is genuine and you really are puzzled.

So, again, I don't know why but I will give you my theory as to why antisemitism happened so often. I don't think that there is a single reason. Nor do I think that it happens to just Jews only, it happened to many other minorities as well but not on the scale and for the same duration. Right now it's happening to Muslims as well, in many western countries.

Jews were different
They were a hard working successful minority
They invoked Jealousy
They were a convenient scapegoat during times of trouble
They were resented because they held on to their religion and didn"t agree to assimilate and convert.
They were collectively blamed for actions of individuals amongst them
They were the objects of superstitions.
There was and still is a lot of brainwashing against them. Various haters made up blood libels against them (alleged that they ritually killed children). Documents were forged to incriminate Jews, for example the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and books like Mein Kampf.

Those are some of the factors that I can think of. Some people liken antisemitism to a form of a disease, they say that once one is bitten by the bug, it's very hard to get cured from it.

My simple suggestion to you if you think you've got it: Just try a bit of empathy and see how you would react if they blamed you individually because of your ethnic group or religion or race does/did real or imaginary wrongs. How would you like to be lumped under "one common umbrella" rather than be judged based on your own individual merit?

[Bushwacker]

Success alone is not enough to explain all these occurances. The Jews were not always so successful anyway.


i didnt want to go in details and explain succesful... (owning all of the meda corporations and secretly steering the host government for example)

[Titus]

I'm not sure about it, but could it have something to do with the cultural isolation that the Jewish residents of foreign lands often tend to gravitate toward? The Jewish people, more so than most others, tend to cluster very tightly into cultural groups. This could be interpretted as arogance, which is a trait often attributed to Jews.

[Floyd]

Jews were different
They were a hard working successful minority
They invoked Jealousy
They were a convenient scapegoat during times of trouble
They were resented because they held on to their religion and didn"t agree to assimilate and convert.
They were collectively blamed for actions of individuals amongst them
They were the objects of superstitions.
There was and still is a lot of brainwashing against them. Various haters made up blood libels against them (alleged that they ritually killed children). Documents were forged to incriminate Jews, for example the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and books like Mein Kampf.



-Muslims are diferent - you call them primitive for that
-Muslims are hardworking people, and Jews want other to work for them
-I wonder why you wrote jealousy as Jealousy
-Muslims are a convenient scapegoat today
-Muslims too don't want to leave they religion and don't want to accept the western life for the same reason. It's imoral to them.
-Muslims are collectively blamed for actions of individuals amongst them now
-Muslims are the objects of superstitions now
-There was and still is a lot of brainwashing against them. Various haters made up blood libels against them (alleged that Kur'an is a violent book)
Documents are forged to incriminate Muslims for example those who claims that Qana is a fraud...

Conclusion: You are unconsciously repeating that horible history of yours on someone's other skin. Ask your self why? Is the world going to be a beter place without Muslims?

[Reffo]

Floyd

Show me where I said anything like that about Muslims? I do admit though that some people do and I'm against that too!

[Reffo]

This could be interpretted as arogance, which is a trait often attributed to Jews.By you too?

[user954651]

As for Antisemitism... that's your propaganda. That's like me saying that antiislamism is a reason. Do you really think that people hate you for nothing?

See Below

There is so litle of you, and you've allways coused the problems all over the world. That's why everybody was after you through the history & that's why you have no legal land. Why can't you live like all the normal people without couseing the wars, and without useing your lobby on every step?

What sort of question is that, Floyd? You know you are repeating Islamist propapganda now - which is the same as Nazi propaganda and communist propaganda before that.

*cough* Protocols. *cough*

I thought a lot about Jews , 'couse I just couldn't understand them. I came up with a solution that they are the most natural thing on the Earth 'couse their every step leads to reducing the number of people of Earth. We all know that overpopulation is the bigist and fastist grooveing problem on planet. That is the only logical thing I could come up with for you. You are something like AIDS...

Sick. Absolutely disgusting.

You do know you are a Islamist Nazi don't you?


OK... that was a little extreme. He does have a valid point though (to begin with anyway). The Jews have often been invited openly into many cultures around the world. However, almost always some sought of conflict occurs. Alexandria is a very good example. I don't understand how it happens, but it always does. It isn't (often) anti-semitism that causes it, although it may be the result. If the people were anti-semitic they wouldn't have allowed the Jews to arrive in the first place. It's puzzling.

2 reasons.

1) Because the Jew's have Jewish values.
2) Because we are a convenient scape-goat.

Yep, it is just that simple.

Learn about the roman (http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux01.pdf) genocide.

[user954651]

Success alone is not enough to explain all these occurances. The Jews were not always so successful anyway.

Very true.

It is funney that everyone comes up with different theories about Why The Jew's... but most of the time the "reasons" are just excuses... because when you take the excuse away the hatred remains. "Success" is but an excuse.

But Hitler did define it for us (http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/statements.htm).

Quotes (http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/hitler-quotes.htm).

[user954651]

I'm not sure about it, but could it have something to do with the cultural isolation that the Jewish residents of foreign lands often tend to gravitate toward? The Jewish people, more so than most others, tend to cluster very tightly into cultural groups. This could be interpretted as arogance, which is a trait often attributed to Jews.

Good idea, but that doesn't work either because loads of the Jew's in Germany were not religious and rejected their Judaism. "Berlin is our Jerusalem; Germany is our Fatherland."

That is where anti-Semitism comes from, it was a scientific way of showing that you hate Jew's who don't even pratice Judamsim - because they are semites, and they do not fit in with the Ayrien people no mattrer how much they try. Infact if you allow them to mingle with the German's the Jew's will become like a virus, so keep them out.

Nazism sent a message: We hate you, not because you’re different, but because you’re trying to become like us! We cannot allow you to infect the Aryan race with your inferior genes.

anti-Semitism: The new excuse then became the inferiority of the Jewish race. You can shed the external trappings of your life; you can shave your beard, get rid of your yarmulke, even change your religion and your nationality. But you can never change your race.

[user954651]

-Muslims are diferent - you call them primitive for that
-Muslims are hardworking people, and Jews want other to work for them
-I wonder why you wrote jealousy as Jealousy
-Muslims are a convenient scapegoat today
-Muslims too don't want to leave they religion and don't want to accept the western life for the same reason. It's imoral to them.
-Muslims are collectively blamed for actions of individuals amongst them now
-Muslims are the objects of superstitions now
-There was and still is a lot of brainwashing against them. Various haters made up blood libels against them (alleged that Kur'an is a violent book)
Documents are forged to incriminate Muslims for example those who claims that Qana is a fraud...

Conclusion: You are unconsciously repeating that horible history of yours on someone's other skin. Ask your self why? Is the world going to be a beter place without Muslims?

Floyd, there is some discrimination with Muslims today which is wrong. People should try to differenciate between Islamisim, the Political/Religious racist group who are trying to dominate all others, and the nice guys. The fact is, you really can't compare most racism of the Jewish people because there is a uniqueness there which even you can see.

[Bushwacker]

when i say succes i dont mean individual succes..but success as a group.... this is a power and can be seen as a threat (also can be used as a threat by jews as we can see the examples in USA) by the local comunity in hard times...

[Mediocrates]

Israel is an entity built on blood and massacres,it is a well documented historical fact,since the irgun terrorist organisation up to the olmert regime,your leitmotive has been and still is,perpetrate genocidal actions as a means of dissuasion,as an israeli supporter,you are not qualified(if I may say so) in giving lessons on morals knowing what you dear nazisrael has commited throughout history,kafr yassine massacre,school of bakar massacre,sabra an chatilla,kana1,jenine,............ect............. ..........kana2.


Ahh the smell of screaming hatred in the morning, it's the smell, of......
well I don't what it's the smell of, do you?

OK you hate me, I hate you. Happy?

[user954651]

when i say succes i dont mean individual succes..but success as a group.... this is a power and can be seen as a threat (also can be used as a threat by jews as we can see the examples in USA) by the local comunity in hard times...

It is an excuse. Poor Jew's have been attacked just like rich Jews. Plus:

"As soon as the persecution is in any way limited to Jews it is no longer based upon economics, because at no time in history were Jews the only wealthy people. As soon as the hater decides to single out wealthy Jews and ignore wealthy non-Jews, economics no longer can be the cause for his hatred. If we remove the element of wealth and power from the Jews, does the anti-Semitism vanish?"

When we were in the ghetto's, that wasn't enough. The Jew's in Poland were very poor, but they were still hated.

"When a Jew meets with financial success, it may set the anti-Semite’s teeth on edge, but the Jew’s success clearly is not what created the anti-Semite."

There is a good story about success though:
Read about The Fugu Plan. ;)

The steriotype of power saved lives.

[user954651]

Ahh the smell of screaming hatred in the morning, it's the smell, of......
well I don't what it's the smell of, do you?

OK you hate me, I hate you. Happy?

LMAO

To me it is like when you breathe in dust. Tasty. :eek:

[Bushwacker]

thats right..so can we say jews are the best known minority in many countries so wahtever happens some lazy right wing leader can accuse them to save his skin from the problems and make the citizens look the other way

[Mediocrates]

I'm not sure about it, but could it have something to do with the cultural isolation that the Jewish residents of foreign lands often tend to gravitate toward? The Jewish people, more so than most others, tend to cluster very tightly into cultural groups. This could be interpretted as arogance, which is a trait often attributed to Jews.

You're right, you're not sure. Everything past that point is nonsense.

[Titus]

Mediocrates. I am posting to inform you that you are likely about to become part of my ignore list. Your posts are almost entirely immature and pointless and seeing as they rarely contribute to the conversation I see no reason to continue reading them.

[Ricky]

Your reply to me about cause and effect is a non sequitor. i stated quite clearly that if Arafat would have accepted Clinton's proposals Israel would have withdrawn from about well over 90% of the West Bank. Israel would also have given the Palestinians ,in addition, some percentage of territory which already is part of Israel. Thus the Palestinians would have been able to establish an independent Palestinian state on the equivalent of 97% of the West Bank, and all of Gaza. The reason this did not occurr is because Arafat refused to accept Clinton's proposals

[AppleEater]

Canada doesn't need the Military does becasue Canada is protected by the United States (as is europe).

You protect us -- from what? 9/11? You couldn't even protect yourselves from the horror you bring upon your nation. And when the culmination of your atrocity worldwide hit home in NY, it was the Canadians, not your precious government, that brought your people to safety.


Canada has the United States as a neighbor. Israel has Hamas, Hezbullah, Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

That's exactly my point. The US has invaded more nations than any other nation in modern history. They have attracted more anger and disgust worldwide than anyone since Nazi Germany. Neither of the other factions/nations listed by you even come close and we have good relations with most of them. And yet, America's largest trading partner -- Canada -- with an equal standard of living and belief in 'the dream', is not so disliked or targeted by terrorism. We have yet another model for your people to follow.


Right now, Syria and Iran are using Lebanon as the Nazis used Spain in 1936: to test tactics and weapons. Israel is replying to the Iranian threat: if you attack us, you will be severely damaged or destroyed.

The Spanish never invaded France in the name of the Nazis. Syria and Iran have invaded no one. Neither has Lebanon. As far as I can see, it is Israel that has committed the invasion. Your analogy is senseless.


You are making one mistake. Canada doesn't have to make enemies. The Jiahdists attack anyone they want. And, with their desire to cotnrol the world, that will include Canada.

Uh huh, please let me know when this will happen; because it hasn't.

[Mediocrates]

That's exactly my point. The US has invaded more nations than any other nation in modern history. They have attracted more anger and disgust worldwide than anyone since Nazi Germany.


China (now called the Chinese civil war and not the Chicom Revolution) 1948 - untold millions dead
North Korea - 1950-53 several million dead
China - A hundred blossoms - untold millions dead
China - The Great Leap Forward - untold millions dead
Tibet - invasion by China - 3 million dead
Cambodia - 1973 - 79 - 3 million dead
Algerian civil war 1957 - 62 - 2 million dead
Algerian civil war II 1990's - 150,000 dead
Congo - Africa's first world war - 3 million dead
Rwanda - 1 million dead
Iran-Iraq war 1 million dead
Bangladesh civil war - 1 million dead
Biafra - 1-2 million dead
SW Saharan civil war - 350,000 dead
Angolan civil war - 4-500,000 dead
Ethiopia-Eritrea - unknown (1 million?) dead
Chad - 1 million dead
Sudan - unknown ongoing.

[AppleEater]

China (now called the Chinese civil war and not the Chicom Revolution) 1948 - untold millions dead
North Korea - 1950-53 several million dead
China - A hundred blossoms - untold millions dead
China - The Great Leap Forward - untold millions dead
Tibet - invasion by China - 3 million dead
Cambodia - 1973 - 79 - 3 million dead
Algerian civil war 1957 - 62 - 2 million dead
Algerian civil war II 1990's - 150,000 dead
Congo - Africa's first world war - 3 million dead
Rwanda - 1 million dead
Iran-Iraq war 1 million dead
Bangladesh civil war - 1 million dead
Biafra - 1-2 million dead
SW Saharan civil war - 350,000 dead
Angolan civil war - 4-500,000 dead
Ethiopia-Eritrea - unknown (1 million?) dead
Chad - 1 million dead
Sudan - unknown ongoing.

Exactly: Invaded more nations.

[Mil]

Posted by AppleEater:

That's exactly my point. The US has invaded more nations than any other nation in modern history.

Germany invaded:

1. Czehoslovakia, Poland, Norway, France, Yugoslavia, Russia, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Albania, Greece, Crete, Egypt, Morocco, Algiers, Tunis... (later invaded some former allies): Romania, Italy, Hungary. 45 million killed, 100s of millions injured, entire Europe in ruins.

They have attracted more anger and disgust worldwide than anyone since Nazi Germany.

I recommend you fight against the US. Petition your government and go!!!! I also recommend you start boycotting US products and those products originating in US after 1945: this includes the Internet.

[AppleEater]

Posted by AppleEater:

That's exactly my point. The US has invaded more nations than any other nation in modern history.

Germany invaded:

1. Czehoslovakia, Poland, Norway, France, Yugoslavia, Russia, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Albania, Greece, Crete, Egypt, Morocco, Algiers, Tunis... (later invaded some former allies): Romania, Italy, Hungary. 45 million killed, 100s of millions injured, entire Europe in ruins.

They have attracted more anger and disgust worldwide than anyone since Nazi Germany.

I recommend you fight against the US. Petition your government and go!!!! I also recommend you start boycotting US products and those products originating in US after 1945: this includes the Internet.

I'm assuming you think that pre-1942 is 'modern'. Fine, by your logic, the US has invaded more nations than ony other in 'modern' history since Germany. Happy?

PS: I'd be glad to boycott the internet. Unfortunately, the internet 'originated' in Britain, and I have no problem with the British.

[Mediocrates]

Exactly: Invaded more nations.


Well I thought the western liberal ethos was about the evils of interfering in the affairs of backwards indigenous peoples? If your criteria is raw body count I'd have to say that most of the world does a much poorer job of showing us their best enlightenment than we theirs.

[Mediocrates]

I'm assuming you think that pre-1942 is 'modern'. Fine, by your logic, the US has invaded more nations than ony other in 'modern' history since Germany. Happy?

PS: I'd be glad to boycott the internet. Unfortunately, the internet 'originated' in Britain, and I have no problem with the British.

Eastern Europe
Greece
SE Asia
Korea
A great deal of Africa
Afghanistan


It seems our Marxists have an awful lot of invasion blood on their hands

[AppleEater]

Well I thought the western liberal ethos was about the evils of interfering in the affairs of backwards indigenous peoples? If your criteria is raw body count I'd have to say that most of the world does a much poorer job of showing us their best enlightenment than we theirs.

The criterium is nation count.

[AppleEater]

Eastern Europe
Greece
SE Asia
Korea
A great deal of Africa
Afghanistan


It seems our Marxists have an awful lot of invasion blood on their hands

Does this list exhaust that of the Americans? I think not.

[Mediocrates]

The criterium is nation count.


What does that mean? The UN, that wonderfully vaunted light unto the nations has spent the bulk of it resources, energy time and money trying to deinvent a country the size of New Jersey with 6 million people in it so that 4/5ths of them are cast into the sea. All the while most of the nations, most of the world, one would think the UN's charter would impel them to worry about, falls off the edge into an abyss of death. This isn't accidental genocide on a global scale, it's intentional.

[AppleEater]

What does that mean? The UN, that wonderfully vaunted light unto the nations has spent the bulk of it resources, energy time and money trying to deinvent a country the size of New Jersey with 6 million people in it so that 4/5ths of them are cast into the sea. All the while most of the nations, most of the world, one would think the UN's charter would impel them to worry about, falls off the edge into an abyss of death. This isn't accidental genocide on a global scale, it's intentional.

What does it mean? It means that nations that beget wars with other nations only assist in their own destruction by creating enemies of their state. They think they are creating peace, but they only work to accelerate their own demise. No one is sympathetic to one who destroys another pre-emptively. Pre-emptive attack is a blind man's word for aggression. The UN is to blame only for the structure of her political power. She is helpless against the veto power of the select few nations who hold personal vendettii in the name of the democratic process. Veto-holders will crush the democratic process and then blame the UN for the failure to find resolutions to problems. Everyone is out for themselves. The people of Israel have not learned from their troubled history. Their children have forgotten the pain of the holocost. Now it is they that commit genocide. The son becometh the father, and the father, the son.

[user954651]

The people of Israel have not learned from their troubled history. Their children have forgotten the pain of the holocost. Now it is they that commit genocide.

Proove this point, or otherwise never say it again.

[AppleEater]

Proove this point, or otherwise never say it again.

I'll say it again. Israel is now the one committing the genocide.

[user954651]

I'll say it again. Israel is now the one committing the genocide.

Proove that Israel is committing genocide. If you can't, don't say it again.

That is a very serious accusation you have made. Where is your evidence?

[Titus]

Concentration camps containing Arab prisoners from around the region. Most of whom are imprisoned without trial. Massive attacks against civilians in Lebanon.

[Reffo]

Hey Titus, you are not a descendant of Tokyo Rose are ya? Or perhaps Lord Haw Haw?

You do know who they were don't ya? :p

[Titus]

I know who they are, I see alot of their material coming from people like you.

[nojustification]

Selfish..selfish and selfish...

Whatever reason they give to start the war....is less and less than enough..(it's barely there).

Why do America or Israel always has to start a military war and claims they are innocent?

When you think like American and Israelis that their rights are above another human rights..this is what happen...war and killing of innocent people..

What make you israelis and american think that you deserve to live in peace and luxury ..where as your country is killing Lebanese babies and innocent lives?...

As a human being/mother/anti-war i hate israel and america action..

To united nation...we know you are below israel and america...and you called yourself UNITED NATION..give yourself another name..

[Titus]

Well overnight we heard great stories:

1) Funeral procession bombed

2) Refugee camp bombed

3) The Red cross asking to be able to build a bridge and Israel saying "you build it, we'll bomb it"

And Israel's position of "everyone still in Southern Lebanon is regarded as a terrorist" and "everyone who tries to leave in a vehicle will be regarded as a terrorist".

[Roland]

Whatever reason they give to start the war....is less and less than enough..(it's barely there).

Why do America or Israel always has to start a military war and claims they are innocent?Yeah, you are right. The others only manage to start terrorist wars, or what? Shooting katjushas into cities is okay for you?
I'm missing your opinion on that.

[Bheeshma]

Selfish..selfish and selfish...
Every war is so get over it.


Whatever reason they give to start the war....is less and less than enough..(it's barely there).

Why do America or Israel always has to start a military war and claims they are innocent?
Phah barely enough?? I suppose attacking and kidnapping soldiers is a rite of passage in your la-la land but in most countries it is enough to start a war.


When you think like American and Israelis that their rights are above another human rights..this is what happen...war and killing of innocent people..

What make you israelis and american think that you deserve to live in peace and luxury ..where as your country is killing Lebanese babies and innocent lives?...
When you are stupid enough to take rash actions like hezbollah without thinking of consequences this is what happens. Lebanese babies are dying because hezbollah wants them to. They can easily move out of populated areas and fight IDf, but then you need balls for that. Firing from a crowd any coward can do.


As a human being/mother/anti-war i hate israel and america action..

To united nation...we know you are below israel and america...and you called yourself UNITED NATION..give yourself another name..
BS. As a muslim you are just pissed that its not the jews that are dying. Some how the anti war sentiments only surface when the war is not going well for arabs.

[Titus]

But Israel and America like to treat terrorists as standard military organisations and as criminals at different times to bypass all international law and then portray themselves as guiltless. Such as Israel waging a war on Lebanon because Hezbollah is a military force. But when they commit war crimes, such as displaying Hezbollah captives on TV it's ok because he's not soldier. America does the same thing with Guantanamo Bay.

[Bheeshma]

But Israel and America like to treat terrorists as standard military organisations and as criminals at different times to bypass all international law and then portray themselves as guiltless. Such as Israel waging a war on Lebanon because Hezbollah is a military force. But when they commit war crimes, such as displaying Hezbollah captives on TV it's ok because he's not soldier. America does the same thing with Guantanamo Bay.


I agree it is hypocracy to treat hezbollah like soldiers. They are a bunch of terrorists and must be taken out completely no POW no trial just kill them then and there. Of course anyone guilty of hiding/assisting a terrorist is also culpable and hence lebanese civilians (shias) are fair game? Don't you agree?

[ItsMyJewty]

AppleEater:I'll say it again. Israel is now the one committing the genocide.

Translation: I'd like to see Israel committing genocide and will say that they are (though I have no proof) because that justifies the Holocaust, and makes the guilt easier to bear.