Hope for Peace

[hasib]

Hi,
I'm not an Arab, but speaking as a Muslim. As long as I recall, I never hated anybody based on their religion, race and so on. As a matter of fact, I went to school with people of different faith and currently work with many, not to mention, often meet for beer :p

Although I admit I¡¦m not going out there and speaking against terrorism in public places, I am trying to do my part with family, friends, and coworkers.

Well, may be taking this discussion elsewhere, but just don¡¦t feel like starting another thread at the moment. Just bare with me here :)

Quite frankly I never understood why the hate is so intense between Muslim and Jews? I guess I have to put myself in an Israeli or Palestinian person¡¦s shoe before truly realizing. But from a Muslim prospective, I feel that hate has no room in heaven. God has created all of us and will judge us based on our character.

I used to have conversation with my math tutor about World, invention, politics, religion and so on. He was pretty devoted Muslim guys as far as I can recall. One day during our conversation, he explains why ¡§only¡¨ Muslim people will go to Heaven and every one else will go to hell. But when I asked him what sin has the new born child commit to deserve hell? He gave me a Lam *$*$ answer. Thus I never believed in such hypocrisy. And I¡¦m sure it¡¦s basically the same point of view no matter which side you look.

Therefore the hate continuously grows. Because one generation passes to another, you should hate him because he is Jew or you should hate her because she is Muslim or blah blah blah. It was unnerving to see those little kids are celebrating when we lost so many Americans on September 11th terrorism. When my nephew shaken by the 911 incident asked me why they were cheering, I told him that they were confused. They were not sure what was really going on. But at the same time it infuriated me inside thinking ¡§God, how in the heck this problem will be ever resolved? These kids are growing up supporting this kind of violence. Consequently, Jewish kids are growing up hating Arab.

As long as the hate exchange doesn¡¦t calm down, there will be no peace. No matter how much we work it, we cannot push the Arab or the Israeli away from the tension; Tension that¡¦s making so many people¡¦s life a living hell. (I¡¦m sure I¡¦m going out of line by saying that, but I believe in free speech :D) -„³ I think Israel-Palestine should become one country called Jerusalem. Perhaps administered by a UN force that will monitor the progress fairly for every citizen. Among other laws, this new country will have zero tolerance for any religious violence of any kind.

(I like to talk more, but I am so hungry, I have to go get something to eat.)

Take care all. I hope this problem resolve once for all. Just simply getting tired of seeing all the violence in either side.

Hasib

[Ezra]

Quite frankly I never understood why the hate is so intense between Muslim and Jews?

Hi Hasib,

First, I would like to express my admiration with very reasonable tone of discussion. You have pointed out some very beautiful thoughts and concepts. Unfortunately, this thought contradicts the soul of Islam, which is based on the singularity of religion in heaven, i.e. Islam. It also contradicts some concept in Koran like the Moshrekeen and Jihad. I see it very hard to find many Muslims that adopt your way of thinking. Actually, I'm sure if there were 100 Muslim Palestinians ONLY with your way of thinking, the Israeli-Palestinian united country would have been established long time ago!
Any Muslim can simply proof that you opinion regarding accepting the others and respecting other's belief contradicts the main soul of Islam. That's why in the Arab countries (where Islam is more understood than any other part in the world due to language similarities) it's considered Kofr (resigning from Islam) to adopt opinions like yours.

[L@mplighterM]

Since I believe that you think what you’re writing is correct and since I don’t see any propaganda in your writing I hope you enjoy/enjoyed your meal.
I don’t agree with it but there’s no harm in having fantasy.

[NewsGuy]

Hasib,

Nicely said.

You are very wise to identify the futility of the hatred.

Welcome to the Israel Forum.

IMO, the hatred of the Arabs cannot be removed in this or the next generation. Maybe in the next one following that it will be possible, when the leadership changes through democratic elections.

But in the meantime, it is realistic to achieve a state of non-war. If there arises a more reasonable generation, then peace itself might even happen.

Inshallah. :)

[fair]

Hasib
Actualy Moslims don't hate Jews
Moslems hate the act of Israel for occupying lands and capture it by force
Arab hate the expandion concept of the Israeli extremists and emigrate of the original owner of land
Arabs hate nazi acts and massacres which has been done by Israeli extremists against Arabs when they ask for their rights
I repeat again Arabs don't hate Jews because their religion

[Ezra]

Originally posted by fair
Hasib
Actualy Moslims don't hate Jews
Moslems hate the act of Israel for occupying lands and capture it by force
Arab hate the expandion concept of the Israeli extremists and emigrate of the original owner of land
Arabs hate nazi acts and massacres which has been done by Israeli extremists against Arabs when they ask for their rights
I repeat again Arabs don't hate Jews because their religion


Pffffffffff.... Lies again!

Ok Fair.... Why don't you say that in the Egyptian forum you write in? Why don't you reply to that guy (you know whom I'm talking about!) who keep cursing Israel just because they are Jewish, and uses all sorts of very logical Koran verses to support his words? I thought you liked this guy so much coz he keeps cursing Jewish!

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by fair
Hasib
Actualy Moslims don't hate Jews

Start here for a cutey-pie idea of what Islam thinks of Judaism:

http://www.submission.org/jews/

And some PA school materials for the kiddies:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/patext1.html

American Muslems, according to Daniel Pipes, prophetically back in 1997:

http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources/muslim_anti-semitism-in-the-us.html

But let's not mince words - see what Mohamed (YS"V) and the Koran think about Jews:

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/islam.html


Moslems hate the act of Israel for occupying lands and capture it by force

Just keep in mind that the Arabs declared war in 1948 and the Arab mobilization on Israel's pre-67 borders led to the Six Day War.


Arab hate the expandion concept of the Israeli extremists and emigrate of the original owner of land

That would be the 12 tribes of Israel. I've got a long memory.

Arabs hate nazi acts and massacres which has been done by Israeli extremists against Arabs when they ask for their rights

Gas chambers?

Mass graves?

Raping women?

Pulling out gold tooth fillings?

No, it's called war. Arabs terrorize and then they get shot back at. Boohoo.

I repeat again Arabs don't hate Jews because their religion [/B]

Hope you're not turning blue in the face.

[sharonbn]

hasib,

Quite frankly I never understood why the hate is so intense between Muslim and Jews?

It was unnerving to see those little kids are celebrating when we lost so many Americans on September 11th terrorism.

It seems to me you gave the answer yourself. Is it not true to assume your average American John Doe hates Osama Bin-Laden and his terror organization?

I am a Jewish Israeli.
I must say you are either extremely naive or ignorant of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict. In This violent conflict, which has lasted for almost 100 years, both parties have committed atrocities against civilian population. In the education systems of both nations, the other side was dehumanized and demonized through child literature (my own childhood literature included “Danidin” series, an Israeli child capable of making himself invisible. His adventures included rescuing Israelis from evil Arab terrorists), textbooks, folk songs, movies, TV shows, etc. These actions caused people to deeply hate and distrust the other side.

All this bad history could be avoided if only the Arabs agreed to the 1947 UN resolution to partition the land of Israel to a Jewish and Arab independent states, as the Jews have (ah... if only...)

It is truly remarkable, IMO, that under these circumstances, many Israeli people, young and adult, still feel and express compassion and empathy to the Palestinian suffering and cause. These people belong to the left-wing of the Israeli political map. IMO, these people constitute the guardian of conscience of Israel and attest the democratic nature of the country (you can understand I put myself in this group).

For example, The big demonstration of the left-wing in 1983 (coined “the 400,000”, the biggest demonstration in Israeli history up to that point) that protested the Sabra and Shatila massacre, was the key cause for the forming of Kahan comitte that put indirect responsibility on defense minister Ariel Sharon and caused his forced resignation.

I can only regret that such a group does not exist among the Palestinians.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
the other side was dehumanized and demonized through child literature (my own childhood literature included “Danidin” series, an Israeli child capable of making himself invisible. His adventures included rescuing Israelis from evil Arab terrorists)

You mean it should have said "good Arab terrorists"? Is that as far as you "demonization" goes? Is that your idea of demonization? And do you think that this literature hasn't already been purged here in Israel by the Ministry of Education?

Are you aware of what PA textbooks contain relating to Jews and Israel? Can you possibly make a comparison to this Danidin nonsense?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
For example, The big demonstration of the left-wing in 1983 (coined the 400,000, the biggest demonstration in Israeli history up to that point) that protested the Sabra and Shatila massacre, was the key cause for the forming of Kahan comitte that put indirect responsibility on defense minister Ariel Sharon and caused his forced resignation.

I can only regret that such a group does not exist among the Palestinians.

Funny. I can only regret such a group exists among the Israelis. :rolleyes:

[sharonbn]

Oh Jerusalem,

You mean it should have said "good Arab terrorists"? Is that as far as you "demonization" goes? Is that your idea of demonization?
I don't say anything about the Arab terrorists, I'm saying that feeding the minds of young children with this propaganda, you shouldn't be surprised if 20 years later, an Israeli settler walks into "Me'arat Hamakhpela" in Hebron and shoots 30 arab prayers, or if an Israeli student assasinates the elected PM becasue he does not agree with his actions.

And do you think that this literature hasn't already been purged here in Israel by the Ministry of Education?
This is true. Such literature is no longer published in Israel. However I also attribute this change to Israeli left-wing.

Are you aware of what PA textbooks contain relating to Jews and Israel? Can you possibly make a comparison to this Danidin nonsense?
This is also true. This only affirms my belief that Israel does stand on higher moral ground than the Palestinians.

Funny. I can only regret such a group exists among the Israelis
This group is what differentiates Israel from its enemies. if everyone in Israel was as "tolerant" as you, we would become Iran.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I don't say anything about the Arab terrorists, I'm saying that feeding the minds of young children with this propaganda, you shouldn't be surprised if 20 years later, an Israeli settler walks into "Me'arat Hamakhpela" in Hebron and shoots 30 arab prayers,

Note that Baruch Goldstein was an American immigrant. I doubt he ever had such school books.

Baruch Goldstein was a mass murderer and there have been very few of such people in Israel and nowhere on the scale of what Goldstein did. However, and yes there is a however, did you ever ask yourself what made an otherwise sane man do what he did, even if it wasn't justified? What triggered him?

or if an Israeli student assasinates the elected PM becasue he does not agree with his actions.

With a little help from Avishai Raviv, Carmi Gillon and unwittingly, Yizhak Rabin himself?

However I also attribute this change to Israeli left-wing.

Good for them!

Funny. I can only regret such a group exists among the Israelis[/COLOR]
This group is what differentiates Israel from its enemies. if everyone in Israel was as "tolerant" as you, we would become Iran.

Really? And how do I compare to Houmeini & Sons?

Now who's intollerant!

[sharonbn]

Really? And how do I compare to Houmeini & Sons?

Since you reject the existence of Israeli people with a diffrent opinion than yourself - this is textbook racism.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
Really? And how do I compare to Houmeini & Sons?

Since you reject the existence of Israeli people with a diffrent opinion than yourself - this is textbook racism.

I didn't reject their existance. I will assume that you're simply reading more in my words than I meant.

My intention was that I strongly disagree with what I feel is the unjust damage done by the left in the last 20+ years here in Israel.

As I see, i.e., in my opinion, had Israel been united - not out of blindness but out of what's right - these past 20 year, most of the troubles we've experienced would never have happened.

So I hope we agree to disagree. I even ended that post of mine with a rolleyes smiley.

[sharonbn]

Oh Jerusalem,

Fine. we agree to disagree.

I will state my opinion, that Israel's strength (and any country indeed) lies in its pluralism, not in its unification.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
I will state my opinion, that Israel's strength (and any country indeed) lies in its pluralism, not in its unification.

Let me challenge you on your statement.

I take it you believe that one side of the political spectrum is overall correct and the other side is wrong (not always obviously but in the general sense of the major issues that divide the two sides).

Do you mean to say that it would be better for many people who are wrong to have a major effect on a country's well-being because of their errors, rather than having them come to the conclusion (through free will and self-decision - not coersion) that they're wrong and henceforth being unified with those that are correct?

I waxeth philosophical! :cool:

[sharonbn]

Oh Jerusalem,

I see your point. You are right. I do believe that the left-wing holds the correct solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. In that sense, I have the "same" wish you have (only on opposite side): that everyone in Israel will suddenly "see the light" and will become zealous followers of Shimon Peres.

OK, made your point, I'm as "racist" as you :rolleyes:

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by sharonbn
OK, made your point, I'm as "racist" as you :rolleyes:

Though you meant it jokingly, being correct is never racism.

[hasib]

Ok, I suppose I am ignorant about much of Arab-Israel conflict history. This forum has given me lots of insight into Israeli folks’ point of view. But I need to learn a lot more

Oh Jerusalem, thanks for the entire link. Phew! That’s a lot of reading there and boy how much I disagree with much of those information.

Despite all I know now, I still think all men were created by the same God. We are all approaching to the same God, but in our own way. For example, If an American, Arab and Chinese person get thirsty and require some water, they will all mean the same thing but in different languages. I am not willing to believe that our almighty God is sharing his power with few other gods. There’s only one God.

Now if Judaism is the right religion and Christianity isn’t or Muslim is the right religion, Hinduism isn’t, then we are questioning the almighty. Why would he let a child come to this world who will eventually go to hell because the he was unlucky enough to be born in a religion that wasn’t the “CORRECT” one? Anyway, I think you guys realize where I’m getting at.

I feel that Arab-Israeli conflict is political shielded by two religion. Why? Religion means power. You can get average men to fight with you if you tell them it’s for Good cause; it will take you to heaven. Religion is weapon that worked from the beginning of time.

Anyway, I’m not going to bore you guys with my limited knowledge. Beside, I am in no place to discuss in the comfort of my home, while many Arab and Israeli are suffering in the Middle East. I really hope the whole situation have a happy ending.

Although I like my original idea of Jews, Muslim and Christian are living together in a Country where there is no tolerance for religious bigotry. People living in harmony without having to worry a suicide bomb attack or a Tank in the backyard. :( Yes, I rather live in that fantasy world. But for now, I am happy here in the States, where I have friends from different faith, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jew, and Buddhist … and learn to live in peace with them. Since I am not on an Arab and Israeli person’s shoe, I may not ever go through what they go through, but I will try to do my part. Hopefully we shall overcome some day ;)

May God bless you all, especially those who are in Palestine getting overrun by Tanks, especially those who suffered or living in a constant fear of suicide bomb attack (not to mention, the era of holocaust).


Ok Fair.... Why don't you say that in the Egyptian forum you write in? Why don't you reply to that guy (you know whom I'm talking about!) who keep cursing Israel just because they are Jewish, and uses all sorts of very logical Koran verses to support his words? I thought you liked this guy so much coz he keeps cursing Jewish!

Ezra, may I please have the link to that forum? Just curious to see Arab side's discussion. Thanks


Regards

Hasib

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by hasib
Despite all I know now, I still think all men were created by the same God.

According to Judaism, there is only one G-d.

Now if Judaism is the right religion and Christianity isn’t or Muslim is the right religion, Hinduism isn’t, then we are questioning the almighty.

No. We are questioning who fabricated which religion.

Why would he let a child come to this world who will eventually go to hell because the he was unlucky enough to be born in a religion that wasn’t the “CORRECT” one?

This is certainly NOT a tenet of Judaism.

I feel that Arab-Israeli conflict is political shielded by two religion. Why? Religion means power. You can get average men to fight with you if you tell them it’s for Good cause; it will take you to heaven. Religion is weapon that worked from the beginning of time.

Now how do you fit your theory in that a tremendous amount of people in Israel and at the top of Israel's political and military sphere's are irreligious or outright secular?

I really hope the whole situation have a happy ending.

As they say in two religions: Amen!