General X
04-09-2002, 03:52 PM
I have had a series of debates regarding the Israel-Palestinian conflict in other forums, and have stoutly supported Israel's cause- not because of a bias, but because I don't understand why the world doesn't realize what is happening. It startles me, it really does. I have been able to prove my point, and have said a lot about the issue. This is some of what I said:
Jon= has different view on Israel-Palestine issue.
Me= favors Israel's right to attack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon: What the Israelis are doing could end up being like someone... think it was that guy... Hitler.
Me: How can you compare Israeli retaliation for Palestinian suicide attacks to Hitler's attempt to take over the world and rid the world of Jews? Now THAT is what I call idiocy, no offense. A country has the right to retaliate for terrorist attacks, just as the U.S. is retaliating for 9/11.
You might tell me, "But that was a huge attack killing 3000 people, not a "minor" attack like the ones against Israel".
Actually, if you do the math using proportionate figures, and because the U.S. population is roughly 50 times that of Israel's... it comes out to similar numbers of casualties. I am not in any way equating 50 Israeli lives= One American life, but it is important to use proportionate figures, because it helps you understand the scale of the attacks on a smaller country with a smaller army and smaller population.
270 Israelis have been killed in terrorist attacks since January 1, 2000.
That is like 13500 Americans being killed in terrorist attacks.
A typical Palestinian terrorist attack kills 3 people. If it was done in the United States they would have to kill 150 people to get the SAME EFFECT.
You may argue that loss of human life cannot be used in proportions, but it must be used because Israel is a much smaller country than the US, and cannot afford to lose so many lives.
I find it rather amusing how the press sometimes twists things. In particular, NPR, a station known for a liberal tilt. I have nothing against that though, and actually I think it is one of the better AM radio stations. But... one report caught my attention, "Now, we visit our middle-east correspondent, Blahi Blahblabber" "In recent conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians, two Palestinians are dead and 5 Israelis are killed, 2 are injured". "........"
Now if you read carefully (or in my case, listen), you see she said "2 Palestinians are dead". What she forgot to mention was that those 2 Palestinians were in fact SUICIDE bombers. I just thought that was interesting, and that people who say the press widely favors Israel and is biased towards Israel must first examine the situation more closely before making such accusations.
I think I've made my point.
Other Person involved for a little in the debate: People may think that the stuff going on in Israel is minor, but this is where there are terrorist attacks everyday. The Isrealis have to live with that. I think Israel has every right to retaliate.
MeExactly. Many minor attacks are not good either. I know people who live in Jerusalem, they say they don't leave their homes now. They even looked into buying everything from food to furniture online ;) Seriously, they don't leave their home often at all... I wouldn't either with these continued terrorist attacks, every day almost.
270 Jews is about *opens calculator program thingy*... .00002% of the Jewish population in the world.
The 700 Palistineans that died or were killed (remember that there have been 260 attacks since January 1, 2000, and many were suicidal, so that contributes to the Palestinian death toll, and many were killed trying to assault Israeli settlements)
700 Palistineans is about *reopens calculator program thingy*...
.0000007% of the Muslim population of the world
Notice that .0000007 has 6 zeros and .00002 has only 4.
That's 18 million vs. 1 billion. I'm not saying "vs" as in a War, I'm saying it as in population comparison of each religion. Not all Muslims want war against Jews, but most are somewhat anti-semetic. Most Jews in the U.S. are too thick-headed and pretend that the Muslim extremist groups are ONLY in Israel and that they are nothing to worry about. You may try to conclude that I am anti-Islam, but there's one problem with that claim. One of my best friends, and my neighbor, is basically "Orthodox Muslim". His family is very religous, the girls are in their late teens and they wear those shawls on their head, and so does the mother. The mother prays to Allah 5 times a day as is the Muslim custom. Just yesterday I walked over and we had a game of NBA2K2 on his PS2. They're actually nice people, and it's a shame that so many Muslims represent them in a negative way.
Once again, back to those figures,
1 billion
18 million
1,000,000,000
18,000,000
That means the ratio is 56 Muslims to every 1 Jew.
Jon:The assumption you make, however, is that all Palestinians are terrorists. They aren't, its that same .001% in their society as in any other society. (Well, probably more, but the point is that most Palestinians are terrorists, Get it?)
I guess when I read about your proposed "all out war" I read it wrong, I thought you meant killing all Muslims. My mistake.
Ok, now, I'm not saying that it is acceptable for Palestinians to kill Jews (or vice versa) but you must understand that the government of Isreal doesn't want peace. It's overall objective is to reconquer the West Bank, Golan Hills et al that they gave up through treaty.
Any other group of people trying to pull the same thing would be likened to the Slobadan Milosevics of the world.
Me:lol I find it grimly amusing that some people actually think the world favors Israel and Jews. Israel has a right to the Golan Heights. Israel has never been the aggressor in any war.
Don't try to pull a fast one on me, I know my history :p
Technically in the (I think 1967) 6-day War with the Arabs, Israel fired the first shot. But, what you might not realize is that Israel had picked up that Egypt was going to attack and was massing troops along the border. The Israeli intelligence gathered that the attack was going to take place, so the logical thing for ANY country to do would be to attack first. Slobadan Milosevic was systematically trying to wipe out the ethnic Albanians. That is NOT the case in the Middle East. Nothing is systematic in the Middle East conflict.
Israel is a slab of land in the middle of the desert. It was NOT cherished by the Arabs so much before 1948, when it was just a barren desert;a small tract of almost invaluable land. Then there's the issue of "Whose holy site is Jerusalem?". Well, whether you like it or not, the facts are: Islam places Jerusalem 3rd in that category. The holiest site for muslims is Mecca, and the 2nd holiest is Medina. So Israel in 1948 was just desert. The early Israeli settlers turned it into a flourishing country with agricultural and industry. Now the Arabs want it back. So small. So damn small. Israel is the size of Rhode Island, the smallest state in the U.S. And that is SMALL. [Edit] Here is a perfect site to prove my point. Please go to it and read some comparisons on it before replying to this post: http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps.htm
Here are a few ones I looked at:
http://www.iris.org.il/images/iraq.gif
Now, look at all these places Palistineans could have settled, but their OWN ARAB STATES WOULDN't LET THEM. The Palistineans requested that Saudi Arabia let them settle there, but were turned down. They got the same result with various others. So, they instead of negotiating with other Arab countries they give Israel hell.
http://www.iris.org.il/images/arabwld3.gif
http://www.iris.org.il/images/usa.gif
http://www.iris.org.il/images/saudi.gif
Here is some good hard evidence of the malice Moslems first showed to Israel. Immediately after Israel was founded, they all attacked. They initiated war after war after war...
"The Arabs not only rejected partition, but attacked Israel from all sides. On the day that Israel declared its independence, the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared "jihad", a holy war. He said, "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".(1) The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini stated, "I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!" (2) The armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq invaded the tiny new country with the declared intent of destroying it.(3) "
Here is something proving what I said about the Arabs actually started the 6-day war, Israel intercepted their communications and it was quite obvious with the escalation of attacks from Israel's Arab neighbors. So Israel made the first move, but in defense.
Jon= has different view on Israel-Palestine issue.
Me= favors Israel's right to attack
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon: What the Israelis are doing could end up being like someone... think it was that guy... Hitler.
Me: How can you compare Israeli retaliation for Palestinian suicide attacks to Hitler's attempt to take over the world and rid the world of Jews? Now THAT is what I call idiocy, no offense. A country has the right to retaliate for terrorist attacks, just as the U.S. is retaliating for 9/11.
You might tell me, "But that was a huge attack killing 3000 people, not a "minor" attack like the ones against Israel".
Actually, if you do the math using proportionate figures, and because the U.S. population is roughly 50 times that of Israel's... it comes out to similar numbers of casualties. I am not in any way equating 50 Israeli lives= One American life, but it is important to use proportionate figures, because it helps you understand the scale of the attacks on a smaller country with a smaller army and smaller population.
270 Israelis have been killed in terrorist attacks since January 1, 2000.
That is like 13500 Americans being killed in terrorist attacks.
A typical Palestinian terrorist attack kills 3 people. If it was done in the United States they would have to kill 150 people to get the SAME EFFECT.
You may argue that loss of human life cannot be used in proportions, but it must be used because Israel is a much smaller country than the US, and cannot afford to lose so many lives.
I find it rather amusing how the press sometimes twists things. In particular, NPR, a station known for a liberal tilt. I have nothing against that though, and actually I think it is one of the better AM radio stations. But... one report caught my attention, "Now, we visit our middle-east correspondent, Blahi Blahblabber" "In recent conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians, two Palestinians are dead and 5 Israelis are killed, 2 are injured". "........"
Now if you read carefully (or in my case, listen), you see she said "2 Palestinians are dead". What she forgot to mention was that those 2 Palestinians were in fact SUICIDE bombers. I just thought that was interesting, and that people who say the press widely favors Israel and is biased towards Israel must first examine the situation more closely before making such accusations.
I think I've made my point.
Other Person involved for a little in the debate: People may think that the stuff going on in Israel is minor, but this is where there are terrorist attacks everyday. The Isrealis have to live with that. I think Israel has every right to retaliate.
MeExactly. Many minor attacks are not good either. I know people who live in Jerusalem, they say they don't leave their homes now. They even looked into buying everything from food to furniture online ;) Seriously, they don't leave their home often at all... I wouldn't either with these continued terrorist attacks, every day almost.
270 Jews is about *opens calculator program thingy*... .00002% of the Jewish population in the world.
The 700 Palistineans that died or were killed (remember that there have been 260 attacks since January 1, 2000, and many were suicidal, so that contributes to the Palestinian death toll, and many were killed trying to assault Israeli settlements)
700 Palistineans is about *reopens calculator program thingy*...
.0000007% of the Muslim population of the world
Notice that .0000007 has 6 zeros and .00002 has only 4.
That's 18 million vs. 1 billion. I'm not saying "vs" as in a War, I'm saying it as in population comparison of each religion. Not all Muslims want war against Jews, but most are somewhat anti-semetic. Most Jews in the U.S. are too thick-headed and pretend that the Muslim extremist groups are ONLY in Israel and that they are nothing to worry about. You may try to conclude that I am anti-Islam, but there's one problem with that claim. One of my best friends, and my neighbor, is basically "Orthodox Muslim". His family is very religous, the girls are in their late teens and they wear those shawls on their head, and so does the mother. The mother prays to Allah 5 times a day as is the Muslim custom. Just yesterday I walked over and we had a game of NBA2K2 on his PS2. They're actually nice people, and it's a shame that so many Muslims represent them in a negative way.
Once again, back to those figures,
1 billion
18 million
1,000,000,000
18,000,000
That means the ratio is 56 Muslims to every 1 Jew.
Jon:The assumption you make, however, is that all Palestinians are terrorists. They aren't, its that same .001% in their society as in any other society. (Well, probably more, but the point is that most Palestinians are terrorists, Get it?)
I guess when I read about your proposed "all out war" I read it wrong, I thought you meant killing all Muslims. My mistake.
Ok, now, I'm not saying that it is acceptable for Palestinians to kill Jews (or vice versa) but you must understand that the government of Isreal doesn't want peace. It's overall objective is to reconquer the West Bank, Golan Hills et al that they gave up through treaty.
Any other group of people trying to pull the same thing would be likened to the Slobadan Milosevics of the world.
Me:lol I find it grimly amusing that some people actually think the world favors Israel and Jews. Israel has a right to the Golan Heights. Israel has never been the aggressor in any war.
Don't try to pull a fast one on me, I know my history :p
Technically in the (I think 1967) 6-day War with the Arabs, Israel fired the first shot. But, what you might not realize is that Israel had picked up that Egypt was going to attack and was massing troops along the border. The Israeli intelligence gathered that the attack was going to take place, so the logical thing for ANY country to do would be to attack first. Slobadan Milosevic was systematically trying to wipe out the ethnic Albanians. That is NOT the case in the Middle East. Nothing is systematic in the Middle East conflict.
Israel is a slab of land in the middle of the desert. It was NOT cherished by the Arabs so much before 1948, when it was just a barren desert;a small tract of almost invaluable land. Then there's the issue of "Whose holy site is Jerusalem?". Well, whether you like it or not, the facts are: Islam places Jerusalem 3rd in that category. The holiest site for muslims is Mecca, and the 2nd holiest is Medina. So Israel in 1948 was just desert. The early Israeli settlers turned it into a flourishing country with agricultural and industry. Now the Arabs want it back. So small. So damn small. Israel is the size of Rhode Island, the smallest state in the U.S. And that is SMALL. [Edit] Here is a perfect site to prove my point. Please go to it and read some comparisons on it before replying to this post: http://www.iris.org.il/sizemaps.htm
Here are a few ones I looked at:
http://www.iris.org.il/images/iraq.gif
Now, look at all these places Palistineans could have settled, but their OWN ARAB STATES WOULDN't LET THEM. The Palistineans requested that Saudi Arabia let them settle there, but were turned down. They got the same result with various others. So, they instead of negotiating with other Arab countries they give Israel hell.
http://www.iris.org.il/images/arabwld3.gif
http://www.iris.org.il/images/usa.gif
http://www.iris.org.il/images/saudi.gif
Here is some good hard evidence of the malice Moslems first showed to Israel. Immediately after Israel was founded, they all attacked. They initiated war after war after war...
"The Arabs not only rejected partition, but attacked Israel from all sides. On the day that Israel declared its independence, the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared "jihad", a holy war. He said, "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".(1) The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini stated, "I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!" (2) The armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq invaded the tiny new country with the declared intent of destroying it.(3) "
Here is something proving what I said about the Arabs actually started the 6-day war, Israel intercepted their communications and it was quite obvious with the escalation of attacks from Israel's Arab neighbors. So Israel made the first move, but in defense.