What's next?

[takeo]

hi there, I was in Central America a bit out of the burning fire, eating tacos, chasing viejas and drinking tequilla.
So the war has taken a new dimention. Sharon has finally become mad, his promised peace is further away than ever and it seems that he even succeeded in turning the US against Israel and multiplying the amount of death people on both sides. Felecitations, good work, cuate.
I read in the newspaper that the house of Sheik Yassin was left untouched, a faith not favoured to the public water system, the hospital and the old and popular quarters of different Palestinian cities and last but not least to the PA and the Palestinian civilians. Again, good work, you have made a new step towards the final solution to the "Palestinian problem". It is important to spare the real terrorists so that you can always refere to their actions when anyone important is criticizing you for etnic cleansing or destroying civilian homes and infrastructure.
I would change however your PR a bit, because no sane person will believe that such actions will result in less violence, less hate and peace. Just start emphasising the idea that the Palestinian would really be a lot happier in Jordan and that their presence in the Holy Land is no longer acceptable because of serious security-problems. Maybe some gringos will take it, and that's the only thing that matters. I wouldn't try to convince the UN anymore with fake peace because anyway they won't take it as long as it isn't serious and based on those unacceptable UN-resolutions.
A good step however was to include a new ultra- right wing party to your government, let's not be hypocritical, we all want the same thing, the Pals out of OUR land.
And, anyway, with the latest actions, the prospect of peace is even less likely than growing bananas in Death Valley.
the Sharon-government has accomplished at least one thing: clearity.
Anyway, if all open war is inevitable as it seems to be than I support the Palestinians in their armed struggle because Israel has no right to be in the occupied territories. The IDF is stronger but can not gain unless all Palestinians will be evicted from the occupied territories. Israel however knows very well that this last move is unacceptable for the world (not only the Arab or Islamic world) and can finally result in economic sanctions or a very broad military coalition which might be stronger than Israel. And most importantly it would loose it best friend and protection-angel.
So it seems it's going to be a very long war, with lots of deaths and suffering. Israel will loose of course in the long run this war it can't win, it depends to be seen if it will loose everything or just the occupied territories.
I hope the Palestinians will finally see that the fight can only be fought against military targets (as they did very succesfully yesterday) and not against civilians as they and the Israeli did untill now, it would once and for all make clear the moral superiority of a people fighting for its own right to exist against a much stronger ennemy.
I hope as well that the Israeli people will make a wiser choice next elections and choose for peace, for the sake of Israel and for their own sake.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
hi there, I was in Central America a bit out of the burning fire, eating tacos, chasing viejas and drinking tequilla.

Que bien, takeo. No Internet in S. America?

Welcome back.

Just in time for you to admire Ariel Sharon's most excellent accomplishments in seriously damaging the Palestinian terror machine.

:)

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
it seems that he even succeeded in turning the US against Israel and multiplying the amount of death people on both sides.
Don't be fooled by our misguided President's missteps. He does not represent most Americans' opinions.

And remember, this is an election year for congress here in the States, so I think that soon enough, we will have a congressional mutiny against the President if he breaks his promise to the American people of fighting global terrorism, including that of your Jihad hero, Yasser Arafat.


I would change however your PR a bit, because no sane person will believe that such actions will result in less violence, less hate and peace.
Cute, takeo, except that when you get back to reading the newspapers a little more, you will find a new reality for Palestinian terrorism in the past week.

Since Israel made Arafat stand in the corner like a bad little terrorist, and the IDF started to dismantle Arafat's terror infrastructure, the suicide bombings stopped. So the whole world (maybe except for the Arab colony of France) has seen clearly that Sharon's tried-and-true methods of dealing with Arab terrorism, have worked so far very well.

With the next terrorist attack, when it happens, and I am sure that sooner or later that it will unfortunately, I hope that Israel finishes off the Palestinian terrorists and their supporters in a way that is so fierce, that they will never again even dream of harming Israeli civilians.

Brute force is the only form of communication that the Palestinians understand, as it seems.


And, anyway, with the latest actions, the prospect of peace is even less likely than growing bananas in Death Valley.
Now, that's a very pessimistic view for a man just back from a tropical vacation.

I think that once the Arabs understand that if they pursue terrorism against Israel, then they will wind up as Kafia-vapor, then finally peace will become possible for the first time in decades.


I hope as well that the Israeli people will make a wiser choice next elections and choose for peace, for the sake of Israel and for their own sake.
Right now, Sharon's approval ratings are rising sharply, unlike your friends at Meretz who are just barely being spared prosecution for treason, over the "Refusnik" military sabotage issue.

[takeo]

Thanks
Actually it was not really a vacation, it was partly business but i enjoyed it anyway.
Yes, i appear to be back right in time to see the next more spectacular stage in the war.
Bush and the most Americans I know(not all left-wing, some republican and democrat-minded) are sick and tired of the extremist Sharon. He also makes it impossible to search Arab allies for a new aggression against Iraq. The fight against terrorism was a fight against the perpetrators of 11th september, in the Middle East there is no terrorism but war between an occupiing power and its victims, that's a difference.

"Cute, takeo, except that when you get back to reading the newspapers a little more, you will find a new reality for Palestinian terrorism in the past week.
Since Israel made Arafat stand in the corner like a bad little terrorist, and the IDF started to dismantle Arafat's terror infrastructure, the suicide bombings stopped. So the whole world (maybe except for the Arab colony of France) has seen clearly that Sharon's tried-and-true methods of dealing with Arab terrorism, have worked so far very well.
With the next terrorist attack, when it happens, and I am sure that sooner or later that it will unfortunately, I hope that Israel finishes off the Palestinian terrorists and their supporters in a way that is so fierce, that they will never again even dream of harming Israeli civilians.
Brute force is the only form of communication that the Palestinians understand, as it seems."

Well, unless the newspapers in CA are full of lies, didn't i read more suicide attacks, more bloody ones, even after the "actions" began. Hey, just this morning i read there was a new attack, and I read that even moderate liberal palestinians are now prepared to sacrifice themselves to blow up some Israeli military. Can't you just see that since Sharon began his harder repression against the Palestinians about a year ago that the violence against Israel became more wide-spread and harder as well? Or is this purely coincidence? Didn't i warn you two months ago that this what happened the last weeks would be a logical concequence of Sharon's policy? And let me make another prophesy: I bet you that this campaign will not stop the violence against Israel but accelerate it. Let's talk in a month or two months... It would be particularly bad taste to bet on it but let's just wait and see...
Brute force will be answered by brute force, that's the logic of the Middle East, unfortunately... but the looser will be Israel, because the Palestinians have nothing more to loose except their lifes.
The only thing the Palestinians understand is that they will never have a normal life as long as the Israeli repression goes on, that's why they will fight, if necessary untill death. Israelv should better understand as quickly as possible that the only way to achieve peace is at the negociating table and by complying the UN-resolutions. That is if they want to live in a a peacefull country.
I hope the left-wing insurrection against the occupation policy goes on, and i hope eventually someone will be convicted, this will show the true face of the Israeli system to the whole world, especially to those liberal Jews in New york and other American cities who still support Sharon. You resist against the occupation of foreign lands by your own country (by peacefull means)? OK, go to jail!
Maybe, empoisened by propaganda and by fear, the majority of the people still support Sharon but if even this draconic measures fail to bring an end to the violence (and they will fail) than the prospects of Sharon are very grim. The only more radical step he can take is killing Arafat, killing 1000's of Palestinians and destroying whole cities and expulsing the others. This measures however would lead to the total destruction of Israel.

[Gatorade]

I always am hearing about the "illegal occupation and return to the 1967 borders" Damn, every night Alan Keyes has a PLO representative, H. Rahman or someone else, and it seems every other word that comes out of Dude's mouth is illegal occupation.

Can someone please point me to where it says that Israel must give back *all* the land from the 1967 War? Where can I find out what the UN Resolution exactly says?

I thought the land was still under dispute as far as exactly what the borders would be.

As a side note, Alan Keyes has been great to watch. I used to watch Jerry Springer to see people verbally beat on each other, but Alan Keyes is much better because he cuts and slicing through people who think they are smart.

[takeo]

The UN-resolution wants Israel to give back the lands conquered in the 1967 war, that means all the occupied territories, simple, unless you refuse to accept the undeniable.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
The UN-resolution wants Israel to give back the lands conquered in the 1967 war, that means all the occupied territories, simple, unless you refuse to accept the undeniable.

That is incorrect, the resolution specifies a pull-back to secure and recognized borders, not all of the land.

[takeo]

"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; " (november 1967)
No further comment

[Gatorade]

You notice *ALL* is missing?

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
"Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; " (november 1967)
No further comment

Taken out of context, your statement would be correct. However you forgot the second section:

ii Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovreignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Would you like to reconsider your previous statement.

[takeo]

) "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovreignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force. "

This doesn't contradict the former: Israel, within its RECOGNISED borders (borders of before 1967) should be souvereign, political independant and should have the right to live in peace within secure and recognised borders free from threats or acts of force, so should the other states in the region, particularly SYRIA, Libanon, and Palestine(in 1967 westbank was part of Jordan and Gaza of Egypt so in this un-resolution Israel was condamned for occupying parts of Egypt, Jordan and Syria, only later the world recognised the right of the Palestinian people to an own state) . Secure borders means borders that are free of threats or military actions, it doesn't mean Israel can redraw the international borders to its own taste.

[victot]

Just in time for you to admire Ariel Sharon's most excellent accomplishments in seriously damaging the Palestinian terror machine.

heh, you think so? i dont think this current israeli operation is immoral, but at least in the short run, i doubt it's gonna do too much at all to hinder the bombings...

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by victot
heh, you think so? i dont think this current israeli operation is immoral, but at least in the short run, i doubt it's gonna do too much at all to hinder the bombings...
You may doubt it, but so far the facts show you are wrong, and that the Israeli operation has been very successful.

Before the operation, there was a suicide bombing every single day, and sometimes twice a day .

Now, since the operation has began there has been one bombing in more than a week .

Also, the destruction of missile factories have so far ended the Palestinians shooting missiles into Israeli population centers.

There are currently several hundred fewer Palestinian terrorists, general suicide bombers, terrorist leaders, recruiters and trainers left alive. And this is only the beginning.

But most importantly, Israel has made it clear that the Palestinians will not gain a single inch of land rewards due to their massacres of innocent Israelis, and that is vital for the Arabs and other Islamists to understand.

All this has been achieved in a limited operation that is only 8 days old. I look forward to the accomplishments that we will see in the near future.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
The fight against terrorism was a fight against the perpetrators of 11th september, in the Middle East there is no terrorism but war between an occupiing power and its victims, that's a difference.
That would be very comforting for you to believe, but it is completely false. Just ask the Palestinian who was Osama bin Ladin's #3 man.

Photo: http://www.israelforum.com/board/showthread.php3?threadid=394

One of the fantasy-land scenarios that many Americans and most Europeans like to believe is that the Arab and Islamic Jihad-genocide is confined to the Middle East and is someone elses' problem. They like ot believe that it will never disturb their good old Bastille Day and Octoberfest, but 9-11 proved that the Islamic Jihad-genocide is quickly coming to a tall building near you.

Again, Israel is not occupying the Palestinians. As you very well know, the Palestinians have been governing themselves for many years now independently. But I guess that occupation is always a good concept to get all the Arabs and their apologists together to rally around the cause of the great Jihad. It sounds pretty darn impressive, anyway, although again, completely false.



Hey, just this morning i read there was a new attack, and I read that even moderate liberal palestinians are now prepared to sacrifice themselves to blow up some Israeli military. Can't you just see that since Sharon began his harder repression against the Palestinians about a year ago that the violence against Israel became more wide-spread and harder as well?
Today's Palestinian Jihad attack was the first of its kind since the Israeli defense operation began. Maybe the newspapers you are reading are from 2 months ago.

As for the reason behind the last 18 months of Palestinian Jihad mass murders of Israeli citizens, it is simple: Arafat ordered the massacres against the Jews right after he destroyed the peace talks and got back to his roots of being a tiny little dictator terrorist.

But Arafat has not been conducting his terrorist campaign alone. He is well-funded by Saudi Arabia (home and financier of the 9-11 terrorists), Iran (home of the ayatollahs who were convicted of the bombing of the American troops in Lebanon as well as the Khobar Towers in Saudi) and the Arab colony of France (which proudly provided a solid political terrorism and blackmail campaign to ensure that the maximum amount of Jews were slaughtered by the French protege, Arafat).




Israelv should better understand as quickly as possible that the only way to achieve peace is at the negociating table and by complying the UN-resolutions. That is if they want to live in a a peacefull country.
No, it has become clear that all the peaceful negotiations and land rewards to the Palestinians were all a monumental waste of time and resources.

The only way to reach a state of non-war is to remove the Palestinians' ability to massacre Israelis. Just like mass murderers are removed from civilized society in all countries, so too is the case with the Palestinians and Israel. The Palestinians need to have their terrorist infrastructure destroyed, plain and simple.

Peace has so far failed, so now, we unfortunately need to give war a chance.

When it's all over and Israel has accomlished its mission completely, then we can look at a peaceful resolution again.

[takeo]

"There are currently several hundred fewer Palestinian terrorists, general suicide bombers, terrorist leaders, recruiters and trainers left alive. And this is only the beginning.
But most importantly, Israel has made it clear that the Palestinians will not gain a single inch of land rewards due to their massacres of innocent Israelis, and that is vital for the Arabs and other Islamists to understand.
All this has been achieved in a limited operation that is only 8 days old. I look forward to the accomplishments that we will see in the near future."

Let's see in the near future...
Maybe several 100's of "terrorists" have been killed(however the most killed where innocent civilians, Palestinians who resisted the occupation with common arms, real terrorists as Sheik Yassin were left untouched), but 1000's more are willing to become terrorist and 1000's more are willing to give their house as a location to make rockets. The will to hurt Israel has increased to the whole Palestinian populmation, there are today many more people willing to participate in the activities against Israel than 8 days ago, the hate has never been so massive, according to a journalist of Le Monde who visited the territories.
The Palestinians were busy defending themselves now but the moment Israel withdraws all the palestinians will take revenge, not just some militant groups as in the past. And if Israel plans to take the territories for good and expell the Palestinians, than it can prepare for a war with the entire Muslim world, without support from the US this time.
it is vital for Israel to understand that with such violence Israel will not win peace or safety, never will, never did.

The Palestinian cause is a just cause and that's why it is supported by the entire world, even Colin Powell, of Israel's best and only friend, will visit Arafat. Palestinian terror against civilians is wrong(as Israeli terror against Palestinian civilians) but few people are so ignorant to forget the very cause of this conflict: the Israeli ungoing occupation since 1967 that has relentlessly been condamned by the entire world since 1967. Do you consider the Irish (or jewish!) revolt against the English as terrorism? Maybe the English did so, but few other people.
If the US were attacking or occupying Saoudi Arabia or Afghanistan than osama Bin laden wouldn't have been a terrorist but a patriot of his nation (and a war-criminal for killing innocent civilians), but they didn't so he is a terrorist and there is no war between the Saoudis and the Afghans and the US. So in my eyes the people of Hamas are war-criminals (as Sharon) and no terrorists because they target civilians in this war against Israel. there is a clear destinction between war ande terrorism. As Sharon said: "We are at war".

Peace failed because Israel never considered to give the Palestinians the same what Israel already has: an independant country free to controll its own borders and airspace within its international recognised borders. Israel also failed to comply to the UN-resolutions and the Geneva-conventions concerning the refugee.
War will fail because Israel is internationally marginalising itself(and it needs foreign assistance and trade to survive), because they will never succeed in killing all the networks because every day new networks are created, because they can never remove the ability of the Palestinians to make weapons in secret, and because the will of the Palestinians to fight Israel is growing every day, as we can see on television.
The Palestinians never governed themselves, they only governed a tiny peace of the occupied territorie that was very graciously given to them by the noble occupier, while the best pieces of land where without exception given to new settlements, in clear violation to the Oslo-agreements. They didn't get anything more than the little pieces of "Bantustan" that were promised by the racist Southafrican government in the 80's to the black South-Africans.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
[B]Let's see in the near future...
Maybe several 100's of "terrorists" have been killed(however the most killed where innocent civilians, Palestinians who resisted the occupation with common arms, real terrorists as Sheik Yassin were left untouched), but 1000's more are willing to become terrorist and 1000's more are willing to give their house as a location to make rockets. The will to hurt Israel has increased to the whole Palestinian populmation, there are today many more people willing to participate in the activities against Israel than 8 days ago,

It's time to say (again) that this will hurt the Palestinians. They've messed themselves up so many times when opportunity knocks at their door.

Why go back 8 days ago? Terrorism by Palestinians has been on the rise since 1993, when Rabin happily signed the Oslo accords, visioning that land for peace would create a new gentler kinder Middle East. Just the opposite happened and practically from day one.


the hate has never been so massive, according to a journalist of Le Monde who visited the territories.

He can visit here and discover the same thing.


The Palestinians were busy defending themselves now

Ah yes! Israel went on the offensive for no reason. Maybe Israel wants to reconquer the land.


but the moment Israel withdraws

There goes my "reconquer" theory!


all the palestinians will take revenge, not just some militant groups as in the past.

We'll be ready. It may finally produce a definitive outcome, rather than the tentative one that Sharon has planned, a mistake in my opinion.


And if Israel plans to take the territories for good and expell the Palestinians, than it can prepare for a war with the entire Muslim world, without support from the US this time.

So, let's see. According to you, we should never have defended ourselves and the more we do, the more hostile the Arabs will be.

Same old Middle East. Nothing's changed. Oslo was a big Arafat lie.

Thanks for being candid.


it is vital for Israel to understand that with such violence Israel will not win peace or safety, never will, never did.

Now turn around and say those same words to your Palestinian brothers, who have done nothing but preach violence. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
The Palestinian cause is a just cause

Which the Palestinians themselves and the Arab world have fumbled oh so many times.


and that's why it is supported by the entire world

It's even supported by Israel. Fumbled again.


even Colin Powell, of Israel's best and only friend, will visit Arafat.

WARNING: Yasser hasn't showered in 16 days!


Palestinian terror against civilians is wrong

Now you tell us. The Islamic conference in Malaysia last week concluded that it isn't, BTW. So whom should Israel believe, Takeo here or the Moslem nations of the world?


(as Israeli terror against Palestinian civilians)

The military actions themselves are solely due to the terror you so strongly condemn. End the terror and see what a good life there can be for both Arabs and Israelis, even if they agree to remain separate from eachother thereafter or not.


but few people are so ignorant to forget the very cause of this conflict: the Israeli ungoing occupation since 1967 that has relentlessly been condamned by the entire world since 1967.

Back to 1967 and your other post on the subject: You can find my response on the thread where you brought up the subject elsewhere.

Funny how the world didn't condemn Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudia, Sudan and all those that attempted then to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

So much for my faith in humanity.


Do you consider the Irish (or jewish!) revolt against the English as terrorism?

Actually, there was quite a lot of resentment within Israel and the Jewish people in some of the actions of the Irgun and Lehi, etc. You also forget to mention the British complicity or total unwillingness to protect its Jewish subjects in then-Palestine from Arab attackers and murderers. There they are again!


If the US were attacking or occupying Saoudi Arabia or Afghanistan than osama Bin laden wouldn't have been a terrorist but a patriot of his nation (and a war-criminal for killing innocent civilians), but they didn't so he is a terrorist and there is no war between the Saoudis and the Afghans and the US.

That's right. I like your example. What you're saying is that it's perfectly legitimate to wipe out terrorists from the source of their attacks and to deal appropriately with whoever is masterminding them.

Wanna change your mind?


So in my eyes the people of Hamas are war-criminals (as Sharon) and no terrorists because they target civilians in this war against Israel. there is a clear destinction between war ande terrorism. As Sharon said: "We are at war".

I missed your logic. Can you clarify this?


Peace failed because Israel never considered to give the Palestinians the same what Israel already has: an independant country free to controll its own borders and airspace within its international recognised borders.

False. Israel agreed to Oslo. Israel complied with Oslo. Land for peace was accepted by Israel. Instead Israel got even more terrorism than they had before Oslo. I don't need to talk about 2000-2002. I'm talking about 1994-1995, just after Oslo was signed.

This is an agreement Arafat was partner to. He broke all the rules. Israel foolishing offered more and more concessions throughout the years but to no avail.


Israel also failed to comply to the UN-resolutions and the Geneva-conventions concerning the refugee.

Be specific. Name them.


War will fail because Israel is internationally marginalising itself(and it needs foreign assistance and trade to survive),

We've been there before and, G-d willing, we'll get over that, too.


because they will never succeed in killing all the networks because every day new networks are created, because they can never remove the ability of the Palestinians to make weapons in secret, and because the will of the Palestinians to fight Israel is growing every day, as we can see on television.

Then it's not war that will fail. It's peace that will fail at the hands of the Palestinians again.


The Palestinians never governed themselves,

They had their biggest chance. Fumble.


they only governed a tiny peace of the occupied territorie that was very graciously given to them by the noble occupier,

As agreed to by the noble terrorist Arafat. He should have said NO in the first place or was Oslo really an Arab charade from day 1? (Of course it was!)


while the best pieces of land where without exception given to new settlements,

The settlements are built on the same type of ground and of the same quality as to lands in Areas A and B. There is nothing better than this hill or that hill or this field or that field.


in clear violation to the Oslo-agreements.

False fairy tales!

Dierct quote from Oslo 1:

"It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest."

Direct quote from Oslo 2:

"Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than May 4, 1996, between the Parties. It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and cooperation with other neighbors, and other issues of common interest."

The Wye River Memorandum makes no mention of settlements at all.


They didn't get anything more than the little pieces of "Bantustan" that were promised by the racist Southafrican government in the 80's to the black South-Africans.

South Africa gave what they promised. Israel gave what Arafat agreed to with Israel. Had there indeed been peace in return for the start of giving land back, chances are today that the left would have been in power in Israel and that many of the areas in areas B and even C would have been in Palestinian land and possibly even some of the settlements would have been "ethnically cleansed" (Hey! If Arabs can say that, so can we!) or their Jews. Big Palestinian fumble.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
) "Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovreignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force. "

This doesn't contradict the former: Israel, within its RECOGNISED borders (borders of before 1967) should be souvereign, political independant and should have the right to live in peace within secure and recognised borders free from threats or acts of force, so should the other states in the region, particularly SYRIA, Libanon, and Palestine(in 1967 westbank was part of Jordan and Gaza of Egypt so in this un-resolution Israel was condamned for occupying parts of Egypt, Jordan and Syria, only later the world recognised the right of the Palestinian people to an own state) . Secure borders means borders that are free of threats or military actions, it doesn't mean Israel can redraw the international borders to its own taste.

It does contradict your point. The meaning ofsecure and recognized borders is that the borders are to be defined. It does not mean that everything goies back to the way it was prior to the war.

In your own post you acknowledge that the land the Palestinians are asking for was never theirs. It was owned by Jordan and Egypt who never offered it to the Palestinians, who during the period of 1948-1967 never asked for it. Frankly it was never Jordan nor Egypt's land to give away.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by Shuki
Frankly it was never Jordan nor Egypt's land to give away.

Why not?

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
in 1967 westbank was part of Jordan and Gaza of Egypt so in this un-resolution Israel was condamned for occupying parts of Egypt, Jordan and Syria,

The resolution does not condemn Israel at all, or Egypt, Syria or Jordan for that matter. It sets guidelines for establishing a secure and maintainable peace between both sides.

In a statement to the General Assembly on October 15, 1968, the PLO, rejecting Resolution 242, said "the implementation of said resolution will lead to the loss of every hope for the establishment of peace and security in Palestine and the Middle East region."

By contrast, Israeli Ambassador Abba Eban expressed Israel's position to the Security Council on May 1, 1968: "My government has indicated its acceptance of the Security Council resolution for the promotion of agreement on the establishment of a just and lasting peace. I am also authorized to reaffirm that we are willing to seek agreement with each Arab State on all matters included in that resolution."

It took nearly a quarter century, but the PLO finally agreed that Resolutions 242 and 338 should be the basis for negotiations with Israel when it signed the Declaration of Principles in September 1993.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
"[QUOTE]There are currently several hundred fewer Palestinian terrorists, general suicide bombers, terrorist leaders, recruiters and trainers left alive. And this is only the beginning.

One of the things that you need to understand about this problem is that it cannot be viewed through Western eyes. There is an issue throughout the ME that views force differently from the West. If you are attacked and do not respond, than you are considered weak and will be subject to additional attacks.



Maybe several 100's of "terrorists" have been killed(however the most killed where innocent civilians, Palestinians who resisted the occupation with common arms

How do you know this. How many people have been killed, what is the ratio of terrorists killed to innocent civilians. I am willing to bet that it is very low. It is a tragic occurence, the death of civilians, but it happens during war. Regardless of your belief in whether Israel is justified with the incursion you have to acknowledge that they have done a good job of minimizing civilian casualties.

the hate has never been so massive, according to a journalist of Le Monde who visited the territories.

What credentials does this journalist offer other than an opinion. I can tell you that I know many Palestinians who hate Arafat and blame him for the problem. Of course they are afraid to voice their opinion for fear of being labeled a collaborator and then murdered by their fellow Palestinians.


And if Israel plans to take the territories for good and expell the Palestinians, than it can prepare for a war with the entire Muslim world, without support from the US this time.

That is purely subjective on your part. I for one do not see the advantages in expelling the Palestinians for any number of reasons, but I would not suggest that the entire Muslim world which has shown such strong support for the Palestinians would do much. Ask the Kuwaitis, the Jordanians or the Lebanese about this.

I would especially encourage you not to make claims about what the US will or will not do.


The Palestinian cause is a just cause and that's why it is supported by the entire world, even Colin Powell, of Israel's best and only friend, will visit Arafat.

Again this is subjective. IMO the Palestinians deserve nothing, they have no real claim here. However I do believe that there will be a Palestinian state because of the political issues.

The same political issues that have brought Colin Powell to Israel. Bush is laying the groundwork to go after Iraq, that is the only reason he sent Powell. He despises Arafat.



Palestinian terror against civilians is wrong(as Israeli terror against Palestinian civilians)
Agreed.


the very cause of this conflict: the Israeli ungoing occupation since 1967

That is debatable. Land lost in war is not always returned to the loser.



Peace failed because Israel never considered to give the Palestinians the same what Israel already has
Peace involves a real exchange between two parties. If Arafat had provided the same message of peace in Arabic that he did in English it would have helped.

If Arafat would have stopped the hatred being taught in Palestinian schools it would have helped. He did not, and he brought shame to himself. I truly believe that his legend will end poorly and he will be known for his failures among the Palestinians.



The Palestinians never governed themselves
Maybe it is because there never was a Palestinian state, ever.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by Oh Jerusalem


Why not?

Because their "ownership" of the land is questionable. Truth is that I am not going to spend time debating whether they can or cannot.

The reality is what it is, rightly or otherwise the Palestinians will get a state. Like many people what bothers me most is the double standards that are applied to Israel.

Israel like every country has its share of problems. There are racial issues, there are questions of ethics and brutality, etc.

When these issues are raised to support the founding of a Palestinian state it makes me laugh. I laugh because it is narishkeit, it is just a smoke screen.

I laugh because the old terrorist Arafat is a dictator who will ensure that his country has problems.

Mostly I laugh because people who make these claims live in a fantasy world. We should always strive to improve and to remove these problems from the world, but the suggestion that because they exist Israel is horrible is ludicrous.

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
but 1000's more are willing to become terrorist and 1000's more are willing to give their house as a location to make rockets. The will to hurt Israel has increased to the whole Palestinian populmation, there are today many more people willing to participate in the activities against Israel than 8 days ago, the hate has never been so massive
Before the Israeli defense operation, something like 80% of the Palestinians supported suicide bombing and pure terrorism against inncoent Israelis. So, the fact that they are now angry that Israel decided to actually fight the terrorists who slaughtered hundreds of Israeli citizens, is just too bad.

Tell me, what do you think that the Palestinians were really expecting to happen to them when they read every day about mass murders of Jews at the hands of their neighbors who are using weapons manufactured in their neighborhoods? Did they think that Israelis would show up with flowers and chocolates?

The Palestinian people knew very well that there would be a high price to pay for the terrorism which they fully support and they made their own decision that the consequences would be worth it to them. So, fine, now please do not complain, because the Palestinians got exactly what they worked so hard for in the past 18 months.

I hope that in the future the Palestinians will try the peaceful approach, which was the only approach that ever got them positive results.


few people are so ignorant to forget the very cause of this conflict: the Israeli ungoing occupation since 1967
Well, few people would be so ignorant to forget that the Palestinians have not been "occupied" and have been governing themselves since the 1993 Oslo accord. When the Palestinians refer to occupation, they mean Israelis living in Tel Aviv and in the rest of Israel.

I will also say that the world, which is a slave to Arab oil, has also condemned Israel for blowing up the Iraqi nuclear weapons reactor in 1982. It didn't mean that the world was right.

The world also opposes the US plan to rid the world of Saddam. So what? Just yesterday, President Bush said clearly that Saddam will be toppled. This goes to show that "the world" as you call it, is no reliable source for determining morality, and especially not Europe, which as you well know, has brought us the worst attrocities and crimes against humanity ever committed by mankind in history.

So, you'll forgive me if "the world" does not like Israel's plan to fight terrorism and to stay alive. I am truly sorry that "the world" is incovenienced by this concept.


If the US were attacking or occupying Saoudi Arabia or Afghanistan than osama Bin laden wouldn't have been a terrorist but a patriot of his nation (and a war-criminal for killing innocent civilians),
Well, maybe you don't think that the US is occupying Saudi Arabia, but Osama bin Ladin's exact reason, according to him, for mass murdering Americans in the past 5 years, was that US troops were, indeed, occupying Saudi Arabia with our troops and weapons stationed throughout the Saudi kingdom.

But just because the Islamic terrorists like Osama bin Ladin and Arafat bin Ladin decide that they are being "occupied" doesn't make it so, and certainly does not justify their mass murder of innocent Israeli and American civilians.

[takeo]

so all of you think that punishing Palestinian civilians for their support to the struggle against Israel is all right. (and yes Israel didn't take care to avoid civilian harm, on the contrary Israel did purposely blow up the water system, electricity, etc. clearly civilian targets with the goal to harm the population, Israel also bulldozered who city quarters and according to observers (journalists are not allowed by Israel, FOR SOME REASON) innocent civilians have been purposely slautered and granades targetted any house without selection.)
In that same despisable logic (which is not mine but yours) bomb attacks against israeli pizzeria's and buses are OK, because most Israeli still support Sharon and his war against the Palestinian people, so they should be punished for their support to this.

Yes this is Middle Eastern mentality, but it is wrong and it shows Israel is closer to their Arab neighbours than to the West.
But not all Arabs think like this (and luckily not all Israeli), many Palestinians i know condamn the attacks against civilians, even after 8 days of massacring Palestinians by the Israeli army.
Yes Palestinians will and should take revenge for this massacre, but not by killing civilians (however i'm afraid that's what will happen) but by killing military and politicians who are responsible for it, I wouldn't feel too bad to hear that Sharon has been the tragic victim of a suicide murderer. He deserves nothing less and the middle East will for sure be a better place without him.(yes many Arab leaders are absolute bastards too, I know, but now we are talking about Israel and the Palestinians, and yes, i will not cry if Israel murders the real terrorists of hamas, but untill now that are the only ones they left alone, strange, isn't it? )
About terrorism and war: it may not be clear to everybody but Israel is at war with the Palestinians, and violence in a war is not called terrorism but acts of war.
And yes the Westbank and Gaza are occupied by Israel, even Israel itself admits that it is not full part of Israel (by not giving its residents the Israeli nationality) and even the United States recognises Israel in its borders of 1967. Only Israel thinks it has the right to possess the Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem.
And maybe you don't care what the United Nations do or decide, but remember that without the United Nations resolution to recognise Israel the future could have been completely different and israel wouldn't even be recognised (pretty much as Taiwan nowadays) in international bodies and by most states. The united Nations decisions are important, why do you think no single country moved its embassy to Jerusalem?
you don't care about the world, ok, but the world will care about you if you ignore the human rights and the un-resolutions, as it did in Yougoslavia and Iraq. THe EU, Israel's most important trade partner, will decide monday to impose economic sanctions on Israel, well deserved, and a total weapon embargo. I warned you... don't push it too far... Belgium (surprisingly but Israel's second trade partner (if you take all eu countries separate) after the US) will decide soon about a total economic blockade against Israel, france and other countries will follow.
And the people who said that it could be possible that palestinians will accelerate the actions against Israel but that this shows their lack of willingness to accomplish peace are just dishonest. What do you expect, Israel can retaliate but the Palestinians can not? Come on, the Palestinians aren't saints, after this assault they will think about revenge and not about peace. The more devellopped and most western of the two peoples should take the first step to end this cycle of bloodshet. it seems however that the people currently in power are the least devellopped, least intelligent and least western of the Israeli society and believe only in revenge, as the people of Hamas.
About history and occupation:
Israel failed to comply to resolutions 43 (1948) , 89 (1950) , 119 (1956) ,127 (1958) , 162 (1961) , 233 (1967) , 237 (1967) , 242 (1967) , 248 (1968) , 250 (1968) , 251 (1968) , 252 (1968) ,
259 (1968) , 267 (1969) , 271 (1969) , 298 (1971) , 338 (1973) , 425 (1978) ,446 (1979) ,452 (1979) , 465 (1980) ( "Accepts the conclusions and recommendations contained in the report of the Commission of the Security Council (on settlements); determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East.
Strongly deplores the continuation and persistence of Israel in pursuing those policies and practices and calls upon the government and people of Israel to rescind those measures, to dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem. Calls upon all States not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connection with settlements in the occupied territories; and requests the Commission to continue examining the situation relating to settlements, to investigate the reported serious depletion of natural resources, particularly water, with a view to ensuring protection of those important natural resources of the territories under occupation"),468 (1980) , 469 (1980) , 471 (1980) , 476 (1980) ,478 (1980) , 484 (1980) , 500 (1982) ,508 (1982) , 509 (1982) , 512 (1982) , 513 (1982) , 515 (1982) , 516 (1982) , ETC ETCETERA I'm tired

enough facts???

,

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
so all of you think that punishing Palestinian civilians for their support to the struggle against Israel is all right.

Terrorism by any other name (such as struggle) is still terrorism.

We're not interested in punishing civilians (though they deserve it for their massive support of such terror and their voluntary harboring of terrorists and their weapons, etc.). We're interested in defending Israel against such terrorists, who number in the 10s of thousand throuout Judea, Samaria and Gaza.


(and yes Israel didn't take care to avoid civilian harm,

I still wonder why we didn't carpet bomb Jenin and other places before going in.

Why did we call for all unarmed civilians to leave before the battles begin? Many left, some stayed either out of principle (hey, it's a free country) or were forced to be used as cover by your "noble Palestinian freedom fighters".

Many of us are furious at the risk to and possible loss of soldier's lives to save civilians in a war zone, just as the US did in Afghanistan. Get your elementary facts straight.


on the contrary Israel did purposely blow up the water system, electricity, etc. clearly civilian targets with the goal to harm the population,

You know of better ways to fight enemy soldiers in densly populated urban areas? Oh yes, there's carpet bombing. That way, the water system may have remained intact. Silly us!


Israel also bulldozered who city quarters

Terrorists houses, weapons factories, etc. Tsk, tsk. Your PALs should have asked themselves some questions before shooting.


and according to observers (journalists are not allowed by Israel, FOR SOME REASON)

Never-ending biased reporting, endanger themselves and more so our soldiers by interfering. Since when are war zones open areas for the press to romp around in?



innocent civilians have been purposely slautered

Pure bunk but go ahead and make up as many stories as you like.


and granades targetted any house without selection.)

More bunk.


In that same despisable logic (which is not mine but yours) bomb attacks against israeli pizzeria's and buses are OK, because most Israeli still support Sharon and his war against the Palestinian people,

Here's the same lunatic Arab argument again. Israel signed a peace treaty with Arafat and his henchmen in 1993 and things only got worse since then. That was after Israel complied with the Oslo agreements and withdrew from Areas A and B, precisely as agreed.

Arafat has been a liar from day one and never had any intention for giving peace in return for the land returned. All we got was war. Furthermore, this particular war, the Oslo war, was not started 2 weeks ago by Arik Sharon. It was started by Arafat himself in September 2000 and Sharon wasn't prime minister then - Ehud Barak was.

Small little facts to get in the way of your repetitive and baseless argument.


Yes this is Middle Eastern mentality,

Yep, the Arabs haven't changed a bit since the 1920s and 30s. Dictatorships, harsh regimes, terrorism, sulking economies, supression of elementary freedoms (clean up your own house first) and oh so many missed opportunities, especially Oslo.


but it is wrong and it shows Israel is closer to their Arab neighbours than to the West.

Someof us would be more than happy to adapt the US's methods of doing warfare against terrorists and the regimes that harbor them but we're not allowed to be Westernized in that perspective.


But not all Arabs think like this (and luckily not all Israeli), many Palestinians i know condamn the attacks against civilians, even after 8 days of massacring Palestinians by the Israeli army.

Yes, they have 100s of WEB sites all over and you can read all about them and watch them on major TV stations all over the world.


Yes Palestinians will and should take revenge for this massacre, but not by killing civilians (however i'm afraid that's what will happen) but by killing military and politicians who are responsible for it, I wouldn't feel too bad to hear that Sharon has been the tragic victim of a suicide murderer. He deserves nothing less and the middle East will for sure be a better place without him.(yes many Arab leaders are absolute bastards too, I know, but now we are talking about Israel and the Palestinians, and yes, i will not cry if Israel murders the real terrorists of hamas, but untill now that are the only ones they left alone, strange, isn't it? )

Your words are our license to kill. If that's what you want, that's what you'll get. So much for peace in the ME.


About terrorism and war: it may not be clear to everybody but Israel is at war with the Palestinians, and violence in a war is not called terrorism but acts of war.

Thank you for strengthening my point.


And yes the Westbank and Gaza are occupied by Israel, even Israel itself admits that it is not full part of Israel (by not giving its residents the Israeli nationality)

1. Israel never officially annexed Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Indeed, Golan druze are all Israeli citizens.
2. Israel legitimately conquered these areas in a defensive war. Next time, tell Egypt, Syria and Jordan not to play with matches.
3. Arab residents in the areas would have been lynched had they even been able to get Israeli citizenship. Those in Judea and Samaria are very happy, BTW, with their Jordanian citizenship, which they are not interested in giving up (though Jordan would be more than happy if they did).


and even the United States recognises Israel in its borders of 1967. Only Israel thinks it has the right to possess the Westbank, Gaza and Eastern Jerusalem.

No. UN resolution 242 calls for Israel to retain secure borders and not return to the 67 lines.

While subject to interpretation, Israel offered to negotiate on these borders right after the 6 day war. The Arab response was no negotiations, no compromise and no peace with Israel or the acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist (also a UN resolution).

As they say, the rest is history.


And maybe you don't care what the United Nations do or decide,

Understatement of the Century.


but remember that without the United Nations resolution to recognise Israel the future could have been completely different and israel wouldn't even be recognised (pretty much as Taiwan nowadays)

Taiwan is a successful and safe country, with nobody blowing them up day in and day out for 40+ years. You me be right indeed.


The united Nations decisions are important, why do you think no single country moved its embassy to Jerusalem?

O-I-L.


you don't care about the world, ok, but the world will care about you if you ignore the human rights and the un-resolutions, as it did in Yougoslavia and Iraq. THe EU, Israel's most important trade partner, will decide monday to impose economic sanctions on Israel, well deserved, and a total weapon embargo. I warned you... don't push it too far... Belgium (surprisingly but Israel's second trade partner (if you take all eu countries separate) after the US) will decide soon about a total economic blockade against Israel, france and other countries will follow.

We've been here before. It just makes us more aware of the wickedness and warped mentalities of the so called civilized western European countries and bogus organizations like the UN. It was a vital reawakening to many Israelis who thought that they would finally be loved by everyone if they would just put their heads on the chopping block and trust bloodsucking murderers like Arafat to give them a true and lasting peace.

Enough nonsense.


ETC ETCETERA I'm tired

Gey schlufen.


enough facts???

Clear as a whistle!

[takeo]

about Oslo, the draft agreement of 1993 does contain an Israeli agreement not to construct new settlements nor to engage in the "substantial expansion" of settlements. Israel violated its own engagement all the time since 1993.

http://www.fmep.org/reports/v8n4.html

"South Africa gave what they promised. Israel gave what Arafat agreed to with Israel. Had there indeed been peace in return for the start of giving land back, chances are today that the left would have been in power in Israel and that many of the areas in areas B and even C would have been in Palestinian land and possibly even some of the settlements would have been "ethnically cleansed" (Hey! If Arabs can say that, so can we!) or their Jews. Big Palestinian fumble."

South Africa gave what it promised, but this was actually not what the black people deserved, it was more a move to conceal oppression, as in Palestine. Arafat hoped that Israel would keep to its promises to gradually give land to the Palestinian autority at a pace agreed upon, Netanyahu slowed down the whole thing as you stated too. But the only thing they gave were little isolated economical unsustainable "bantustan's".
About etnic cleansing, the settlements were illegal from day one and the (mostly extremist) people who moved there knew this very well, they have no family-roots in this area as the palestinian refugees and can thus not be etnically cleansed. Their homes are build on land stolen or bulldozered from Palestinians, for which they didn't receive compensation, and this was BEFORE any violence erupted in the occupied territories.
About 1967:
"That is debatable. Land lost in war is not always returned to the loser. "
No, that's true if you look at the history untill 1945, but in all the wars after WWII it was returned because from that time the UN and international law became functioning (Tibet was officially still a part of China so even Tibet was officially not incorporated). Indonesia finally had to give East Timor back, and Morocco is still struggling with the West Sahara.
The world never complied to Egypt for trying to conquer Israel because Egypt nor Jordany or whatever country occupied Israel BUT ISRAEL OCCUPIED PARTS OF SYIRIA, JORDAN AND EGYPT.
The Israeli ambassador may have declared that he wants to open talks with Syria and Jordan and Egypt, but untill the day of today, after talks with the three countries, Syria made clear it wants its occupied territory back while Egypt and jordan made clear they want to see the occupied territories given to the PA.
Israel however was never willing to accept these very obvious obligations, even if the three countries offered peace and recognistion in return. Jordan and Egypt finally accepted recognition even without the condition of stopping the occupation but even this moderate attitude couldn't move Israel to think about the end of occupation, not in 1979, and not in 1993. Only the intifadeh (1 and 2) have moved first the left-wing and later Sharon and the right-wing to accept the idea of a Palestinian state. It seems the generals only understand the language of force, that is the lesson the Palestinians have learned. (as well in Libanon)

"It does contradict your point. The meaning ofsecure and recognized borders is that the borders are to be defined. It does not mean that everything goies back to the way it was prior to the war.
In your own post you acknowledge that the land the Palestinians are asking for was never theirs. It was owned by Jordan and Egypt who never offered it to the Palestinians, who during the period of 1948-1967 never asked for it. Frankly it was never Jordan nor Egypt's land to give away."

No, wrong interpretation, the borders are defined, that is the international recognised borders of Israel, and at the same time Israel was recognised the Westbank was recognised as part of Jordan and the Gaza as part of Egypt. Egypt and Jordan remained the legal owners untill they offered their land to the real inhabitants of the lands, the Palestinians, in accordance with the UN, they never offered or gave it to Israel.
Secure and recognised borders means that every country need to respect the territorial integrity and safety of the other countries, based on international laws, which indicates that borders can not be changed unless mutual agreement.

[takeo]

Jerusalem, do you know that the words you just used here could be used against you in any war-crimes tribunal if you were in charge at the time of writing them down?
you make clear that punishing and carpet-bombing civilians is OK, which is in clear contradiction to the Geneva-conventions, of course.
than you go on that we are wicked and warped to condamn and punish Israel for it. Any country that wasn't such a good friend of the US would have been bombed to ground-zero for this kind of behavior in territory that is not recognised as a part of your country, oil or no oil (Iraq is an example...).
And yes the US committed war-crimes too, the problem is that the US is the world-power and can permit to
commit war-crimes (as other big powers such as Russia in Technia and France in Algeria) but Israel ISN'T and HASN'T a veto-power in the UN, so it will be punished for its crimes, not hard enough because it's a friend of the US, but anyway it will be punished, for sure because Sharon's policy interfears with the interests of the US for stability and pax americana in the Middle East.
By the wayc you didn't answer to my argument that if punishing civilians is ok for you as an act of war, than you can't possibly be indignified that the Palestinians do the same?

"Israel legitimately conquered these areas in a defensive war. Next time, tell Egypt, Syria and Jordan not to play with matches. "

BUNK
Defensive war? Who envaded first which country? legitimately conquered? that's a very lonely viewpoint and what legitimacy are you talking about? for sure not the legitimacy of international law of war or Geneva conventions.
israel is playing with matches too at this very moment, don't come to wine afterwards if, in the long run, the results for Israel will be catastrofic, and please don't come with that "the whole world is anti-semitic" crap. Whatever will happen to Israel now will be nothing but a consequence of its own policy.

[takeo]

I'm really sick and tired to hear the catastrophic tragedy that happened in WWII being abused for legitimising war-crimes and oppression.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
Jerusalem, do you know that the words you just used here could be used against you in any war-crimes tribunal if you were in charge at the time of writing them down?
you make clear that punishing and carpet-bombing civilians is OK, which is in clear contradiction to the Geneva-conventions, of course.

No, I don't know. Maybe George Bush doesn't know it either. I never claimed to be an attorney specializing in the Geneva Convention and I've got a good inkling that neither are you.

It was legit for the US and Europe to use against the axis. It was legit for the US to use in numerous other wars. It was legit to use it up to a week or 2 ago in Afghanistan. Now, when Israel doesn't use it, you tell me that it's against the GC?

Which articles of the convention does bombing, under the circumstances, during a justified miltary campaign, forbid?


than you go on that we are wicked and warped to condamn and punish Israel for it. Any country that wasn't such a good friend of the US would have been bombed to ground-zero for this kind of behavior in territory that is not recognised as a part of your country, oil or no oil (Iraq is an example...).

There is no comparison with the offensive war Iraq waged against the sovereign state of Kuwait and Israel's campaign against massive numbers of Palestinian terrorists eminating from a terrorist entity that has broken every human rights law in the booksince writing the book on terrorism from way back in 1964, when the PLO was founded by the Arab League (3 years before the 6 day war, when Israel was well within the good old 1948 borders).


And yes the US committed war-crimes too, the problem is that the US is the world-power and can permit to
commit war-crimes (as other big powers such as Russia in Technia and France in Algeria) but Israel ISN'T and HASN'T a veto-power in the UN, so it will be punished for its crimes, not hard enough because it's a friend of the US, but anyway it will be punished, for sure because Sharon's policy interfears with the interests of the US for stability and pax americana in the Middle East.

Wanna bet? You dummies haven't learned that evilnever triumphs? DO you think you lies and disinformation will hypnotize the world forever. Humanity isn't that dumb, at least I pray it isn't.


By the wayc you didn't answer to my argument that if punishing civilians is ok for you as an act of war, than you can't possibly be indignified that the Palestinians do the same?

Acts of war cause suffering by everyone involved. This is not punishment. This is the outcome of war. German citizens suffered tremendously as a result of the Nazi regime they followed and were a part of.


"Israel legitimately conquered these areas in a defensive war. Next time, tell Egypt, Syria and Jordan not to play with matches. "

BUNK

Thank heavens some truths are easy to find in open places like libraries and archive and don't have to be spun like the garbage the Arabs are feeding the world today.


Defensive war? Who envaded first which country? legitimately conquered?

I replied to you elsewhere with the most elementary of historic details, where you yourself counldn't respond even with fiction. Go look it up again.


that's a very lonely viewpoint

That's certainly the way it looks when you're an Arab or a Moslem with shutters on your eyes.


and what legitimacy are you talking about? for sure not the legitimacy of international law of war or Geneva conventions.
israel is playing with matches too at this very moment, don't come to wine afterwards if, in the long run, the results for Israel will be catastrofic, and please don't come with that "the whole world is anti-semitic" crap.

We see it here and now. We also see a lot of crap - indeed.


Whatever will happen to Israel now will be nothing but a consequence of its own policy.

Yes. More Arab threats. Yawn.

[Oh Jerusalem]

Originally posted by takeo
I'm really sick and tired to hear the catastrophic tragedy that happened in WWII being abused for legitimising war-crimes and oppression.

Yes:

Al-Ahram Weekly | Invasion | They are Nazis, Nazis, Nazis' (http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/2002/580/6inv2.htm)

And so many more. The Arabs (many of whom were fervent supports of Hitler and still are) should indeed stop this disgraceful reference to the suffering of my people.

[takeo]

The 1949 Geneva Conventions and their 1977 Protocols define crimes against humanity as attacks on civilian populations or civilian objects. Civilian objects are defined as those indispensable to the survival of a population; and drinking water installations are designated as a civilian objects.
The Geneva Conventions and Protocols prohibit indiscriminate attacks. An attack is "indiscriminate" when its effect cannot be limited and thus harms military and civilian targets without distinction. Indiscriminate attacks include those that may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life or injury to civilians. Where there is doubt, a potential target must presumed to be civilian.
On basis of that part of the geneva-conventions various Yougoslavs have been convicted in The Hague for indiscriminate bombing and destroying civilian utilities.

"There is no comparison with the offensive war Iraq waged against the sovereign state of Kuwait and Israel's campaign against massive numbers of Palestinian terrorists eminating from a terrorist entity that has broken every human rights law in the booksince writing the book on terrorism from way back in 1964, when the PLO was founded by the Arab League (3 years before the 6 day war, when Israel was well within the good old 1948 borders). "

Yes, there is, both Iraq and Israel illegally occupied parts of other countries and refused to leave. Both were offensive wars were the invading nation lost the first shot. Both had economical blackmail as excuse.
The difference is that Israel treated the local inhabitants worse than Iraq treated the Kouweitis and that the Palestinians resisted more than the Kouweitis, who mostly fled their country.
Yes palestinian terrorists broke human rights, so did Israel at more than one occasion.

"German citizens suffered tremendously as a result of the Nazi regime they followed and were a part of. "

Yes, but the allies never did the same to the Germans as the Israeli with the palestinians, they gave them freedom and independance only two years after their defeat. And by the way Israel was the aggressor, not the palestinian population, as Germany.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
I'm really sick and tired to hear the catastrophic tragedy that happened in WWII being abused for legitimising war-crimes and oppression.

There is nothing to be gained by pasting 10,000 word essays that add nothing to the conversation.

There have been civilian casualties. Many Palestinians have suffered because of the current situation. I am sure that many in Jenin have been traumatized and that many were innocent.

OTOH, I am not about to say that Israel should not defend herself because innocent people may get hurt. Arafat is ultimately responsible for much of their pain.

His incessant duplicity and cries for more violence against Israelis is the reason why this mission was started. Frankly I don't care if you ever agree with us. I am not sure why you are here as you are not adding anything new to the conversation, other then to repeat that Israel is bad, Sharon is evil, blah, blah, blah.

World opinion is not the sole barometer for justifying actions. Sometimes you have to take actions that are not appreciated until later. As has already been mentioned, what would have happened if Israel had not taken out Iraq's nuclear reactor.

[Shuki]

Originally posted by takeo
[B]


[QUOTE]The difference is that Israel treated the local inhabitants worse than Iraq treated the Kouweitis and that the Palestinians resisted more than the Kouweitis, who mostly fled their country.
Ask the Palestinians who used to live in Kuwait about what happened to them. And while you are at it ask the Kurds what they think of Saddam Hussein.



Yes,
but the allies never did the same to the Germans Nope, Berlin was never divided was it.

[L@mplighterM]

Note: Edited by Forum management to remove personal attacks

Sorry I'll try to avoid that.

[L@mplighterM]

The 1949 Geneva Conventions and their 1977 Protocols define crimes against humanity as attacks on civilian populations or civilian objects. Civilian objects are defined as those indispensable to the survival of a population; and drinking water installations are designated as a civilian objects.

Where does it state that persons are immune from being arrested? Where does it say that the arresting authority can’t return fire after they have peacefully tried to apprehend individuals?

You are aware that the UN has passed several resolutions that have called for the West Bank and Gaza Strip to be demilitarized. It seems like the Palestinians are in possession of illegal weaponry and they are returning fire with those weapons.

The ratio of so many Jews versus so many Palestinians is always being thrown at us. Just because the Palestinians are lousy shots (which is good) they loose more terrorists and terrorist supporters.

If my memory serves me correct less than 10 Americans died in the Gulf War and some 30,000 Iraqis and many more since that. All the casualties in the Gulf War are the direct results of their evil leaders actions.

Every Jew and Arab that has died in the Middle East is due to Arafat’s actions and others like him.

[aid]

Originally posted by takeo
I'm really sick and tired to hear the catastrophic tragedy that happened in WWII being abused for legitimising war-crimes and oppression.

Agree. You are sick.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
The Geneva Conventions and Protocols prohibit indiscriminate attacks. An attack is "indiscriminate" when its effect cannot be limited and thus harms military and civilian targets without distinction. Indiscriminate attacks include those that may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life or injury to civilians. Where there is doubt, a potential target must presumed to be civilian.

takeo:
So you are arguing that Arafat is a war criminal. I agree!


Originally posted by takeo
The difference is that Israel treated the local inhabitants worse than Iraq treated the Kouweitis and that the Palestinians resisted more than the Kouweitis, who mostly fled their country.


Where do you get your information? Was nothing that happened in Kuwait broadcast in your cave? Accounts of rape, torture, and indiscrimanant killings were the norm for the "evacuating" Iraqis.



Originally posted by takeo
And by the way Israel was the aggressor, not the palestinian population, as Germany.

Did you say this with a straight face? :o

[JustPat]

Originally posted by Shuki
World opinion is not the sole barometer for justifying actions. Sometimes you have to take actions that are not appreciated until later. As has already been mentioned, what would have happened if Israel had not taken out Iraq's nuclear reactor.

Well said. If we knew half of what was true behind the scenes we would quake in our shoes. Forces are constantly at work to achieve through covert means what cannot be accomplished in plain view. How often has a "mysterious death" changed the course of history. Perhaps, had Sharon brought about the "mysterious death" of Arafat 20 years ago we would be in an entirely different situation today.

[L@mplighterM]

Article 2 of the Geneva Convention


In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.


The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.


Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.


I don?t think that anyone could argue that the Palestinians are a party to the convention.

[takeo]

Why not?
Tha Palestinians are recognised bu the un as the legitimate owners of the Westbank and Gaza and they are defending their territory given to them by the Oslo-agreements;
I hope one day Sharon will mysteriously die, and hopefully that day Netanyahu will mysteriously be in his neighbourhood to make my day great.
Arafat isn't a war-criminal because he never targetted innocent civilians, Sharon did on several occasions, the last one only yesterday (indiscriminately targetting popuilar neighbourhoods and destroying civilian utilities, forbidden byv the geneva-conventions).
What exactly happened i kouweit, even the Pentagon aknowledges now that the "baby-story" was fabricated, what else? we know howe"ver all the abuses against the human rights of the Palestinians perpetrated by israel.
About Germany, yes , it was divided, but both Germanies gained their independance and were not colonised by the Americans nor the Russians.
"Where does it state that persons are immune from being arrested? Where does it say that the arresting authority can’t return fire after they have peacefully tried to apprehend individuals?
You are aware that the UN has passed several resolutions that have called for the West Bank and Gaza Strip to be demilitarized. It seems like the Palestinians are in possession of illegal weaponry and they are returning fire with those weapons.
The ratio of so many Jews versus so many Palestinians is always being thrown at us. Just because the Palestinians are lousy shots (which is good) they loose more terrorists and terrorist supporters. "

Nobody is immune from being arrested, but there's a difference between trying to arrest some suspects and indiscriminately bombing whole cities and destroying civilian utilities.
Yes Westbank and Gaza ought to be demilirized, Israel never agreed to that and is still the largest military power in the region.
Yes the ratio is much more palestinian died than jews, so please stop telling that the Israeli are the real victims of this war, the real victims are the Palestinians, who don't have an own land, don't have nothing, but a lot of death, because Israel never allowed them to have what Israel already has. This is not about terrorism but about a war in which the stronger party made abuse of their technological advance and the weaker part of their stronger will to defeat the adversary.
Arafat never asked for more bloodshet, all he asked for was an independant palestinian state fully controlled by palestinians and free of Israeli colonisers, this however was never even considered by Israel. As a consequence more extreme elements of the palestinians got enough support to conduct more extreme actions against israeli civilians.
the actions israel takes now will not be appreciated in history, not even by Jews, because they will only result in more violence by a people that has nothing to loose and everything to win, in the first place their freedom of years of israeli occupation.
What i am adding to this discussion is the palestinian viewpoint, which is forgotten by most of you, who only see dead Israeli and world condamnation but forget what israel did to the other side during more than 30 years.

[JustPat]

Originally posted by takeo
What i am adding to this discussion is the palestinian viewpoint, which is forgotten by most of you, who only see dead Israeli and world condamnation but forget what israel did to the other side during more than 30 years.

How I would like to write a treatise, but the wise man holds his tongue.

takeo:

You have done a wonderful job of bringing Palestinian propaganda to the table. Unfortunately, you fail to back your postion with citations of credible sources or verifiable historical record. Anyone can spout the party line, but that does not make it either right or believeable. Here you have met many solid students of world culture and of the current conflict. Why don't you check these things against the facts, or are you afraid of the truth?

I do not always agree with the way that the politicos think or act, but I have enough common sense to dig until I find the truth. Israeli propaganda ... Palestinian Propaganda ... somewhere in between is the truth. You are passionate in your beliefs about the Palestinians and Arafat. Many passionate people follow a Judas Goat to destruction.

[L@mplighterM]

Segment from takeo's post:

Arafat isn't a war-criminal because he never targetted innocent civilians


The key word is innocent isn?t it? Arafat might argue that there?s no such thing as an innocent Jew.

For that matter so did Adolph Hitler didn?t he? Many devils and/or demons throughout history to the present have made that same argument.

Furthermore there?s concrete evidence in the form of documents where Arafat authorizes payment to spill Jewish blood.

[takeo]

In all my other treats i used specific citations of un-resolutions, Geneva-conventions, historical references, a lot more than some other people here who consider the Jerusalem Post or Daniel Pipes as an autoritive sources.
Yes Arafat ordered the spilling of jewish blood, but not innocent Jewish blood, but the killing of military and politicians. He never autorized an action against civilians, none of this actions could be linked to the PLO or Yasser Arafat.
however massacres against palestinian civilians have been conducted by the Israeli army.
the difference between innocent and not innocent is pretty clear to me, anyone with a political or military position is NOT innocent.

[takeo]

ps: maybe some dissident fractions of the PLO were involved in killing innocent civilians, but that's why they were DISSIDENT fractions.

[JustPat]

takeo:

Why do you insist on comparing apples to oranges? Arafat and the PLO act as terrorists, willfully concealing their actions, acting in a cowardly and dastardly manner to destroy the very fabric of the society in which they live. The Israeli Government is actiing to ensure order and a formal community orpeating under the rule of law.

Since his rise to "President" Arafat has not established a central government, has not established a working infrastructure, has not set forth a formal set of laws by which the PA will operate their supposed nation. As an anarchist, Arafat has not shown himself to be anything more that a seditious aggitator bent on the destruction of innocent lives.

[L@mplighterM]

Originally posted by takeo
ps: maybe some dissident fractions of the PLO were involved in killing innocent civilians, but that's why they were DISSIDENT fractions.

Arafat couldn't be one of them.

[takeo]

"Why do you insist on comparing apples to oranges? Arafat and the PLO act as terrorists, willfully concealing their actions, acting in a cowardly and dastardly manner to destroy the very fabric of the society in which they live. The Israeli Government is actiing to ensure order and a formal community orpeating under the rule of law. "

The very fabric of the society in which they live?
It is not their society, it is the society of a state that is not Palestinian but has forced its will upon the Palestinians. Acting to ensure order? You can't ensure order in territories that doesn't belong to you and have been conquered in a war where the citizens don't have any legal status, this is not ensuring order but ensuring israeli domination over the Palestinians.

"Since his rise to "President" Arafat has not established a central government, has not established a working infrastructure, has not set forth a formal set of laws by which the PA will operate their supposed nation. As an anarchist, Arafat has not shown himself to be anything more that a seditious aggitator bent on the destruction of innocent lives."

The PA was never allowed by Israel to form an own independant state, all they had were some islands of land separated by israeli settlements and military posts.
All the current problems are a consequence of israeli refusal to hand over all the occupied territories to the PA and accept it as the leadership of an independant state. if this would have happened a second intifadeh would have been unnecssary and the extremist groups wouldn't be so popular now, people would be thinking about problems such as corruption and economics and israel would be nothing but a bad memory and a neighbouring country for them.

[aid]

Latest news:

Israel is going to hand over everything to Takeo and his Communist Party.

I swear.

[JustPat]

takeo:

You must surely be a philosophy student!


Originally posted by takeo
"The very fabric of the society in which they live?
It is not their society, it is the society of a state that is not Palestinian but has forced its will upon the Palestinians.

So, if I understand what you are saying, the Palestinians have no established society in a land they claim to hold title to? They have no roots to point to and say, "See, we have been here and oiving in this way for years. We are the society of Area A, we dominate the demographics of Area B, and we are entitled to possess this land as a result." I guess that means that the land of Areas A and B must have an established Israeli culture and society and be land to which they are rightfully entitled. Attention all Palestinians in Areas A and B, "takeo" has proven you have no right to this land. Please gather your things and be out by daybreak tomorrow. Thank you, takeo, for making the resolution so easy.


Originally posted by takeo
Acting to ensure order? You can't ensure order in territories that doesn't belong to you and have been conquered in a war where the citizens don't have any legal status, this is not ensuring order but ensuring israeli domination over the Palestinians.

I live in a rural area divided into Counties. When a motorcycle gang from another county came here and busted up a local tavern, our police pursued them until all 25 were arrested, jailed, and the threat to our county was eliminated. Had it come to a shoot out, our police force would have been authorized to use deadly force to make the county safe for our residents. Had this been on a larger scale, our National Guard (military homeland defense forces) would have been mobilized and those terrorizing our populace would have been stopped, shooting them dead if necessary. Show me where the current operation in Israel is any different, truly different, ot just in your head.


Originally posted by takeo
The PA was never allowed by Israel to form an own independant state, all they had were some islands of land separated by israeli settlements and military posts.

I would not turn any part of my house over to my two year old grandson either. He has not shown any adult responsibility. He is not worthy of such trust until he can shoe me that he will walk in such trust without my supervision. How long has the PA been around?


Originally posted by takeo
All the current problems are a consequence of israeli refusal to hand over all the occupied territories to the PA and accept it as the leadership of an independant state. if this would have happened a second intifadeh would have been unnecssary and the extremist groups wouldn't be so popular now, people would be thinking about problems such as corruption and economics and israel would be nothing but a bad memory and a neighbouring country for them.

Based on the messages broadcast by the PA just 8 short months ago (see http://www.adl.org/israel/mosque_sermon3.asp), giving the Palestinians will do nothing to ease tensions, but rather, give them a platform from which to wage war. The "intifada" will continue until the stated purpose of driving Israel into the sea is accomplished. No other solution will be acceptable to those who call the Jews "monkeys and pigs, worshippers of the calf, and idol worshippers." In reality, we are descussing corruption in its most vile form, the corruption of morality by a people whose arrogance is demonstrated each time that they open their mouths and cry "peace, peace" while continuing to bomb bus stops and markets.

When you are done with philosophy, reality will still be here waiting, and Israel will still be in the Land.

For thus says the L-rd of hosts: “He sent Me after glory, to the nations which plunder you; for he who touches you touches the apple of His eye. For surely I will shake My hand against them, and they shall become spoil for their servants. Then you will know that the L-rd of hosts has sent Me." Zechariah 2:12-13
May it be so in our day!

[NewsGuy]

Originally posted by takeo
The very fabric of the society in which they live?
It is not their society, it is the society of a state that is not Palestinian but has forced its will upon the Palestinians. Acting to ensure order? You can't ensure order in territories that doesn't belong to you...
I would have thought that by now that this excuse of "we just can't control our people seems too old and stale to even be mentioned again.

For about 10 years now, the Palestinians have had complete control over their citizens, over their government, over their municipal infrastructure, over their legal system, over their judicial system, over their police force, over their educational system, over their welfare services, and many other function of a fully independent state.

During those 10 years of independent day-to-day government, the PA has managed to fully eliminate any political opposition to Arafat, and has managed to impose its brutal and corrupt dictatorship on a population of more than 3 million Palestinians.

Incredibly, though, the Palestinians and their apologists are actually still trying to convince the world that even though Arafat can control every single aspect of the lives of 3 million people, he is having "difficulties" controlling his own militia, who publicly claims responsibility for the mass murder of Israeli civilians.

As usual, the Arabs and their apologists hope that no one will have any idea about the facts, so their ridiculous claims will be believed by a gullible and uninformed audience.



All the current problems are a consequence of israeli refusal to hand over all the occupied territories to the PA and accept it as the leadership of an independant state.
Right, all the Palestinians' problems and all the Arab states' problems, and world hunger and nuclear proliferation, and global warming and the spread of AIDS and cosmic debris, is all Israel's fault, and especially that of Ariel Sharon.

But things like brutal and corrupt dictatorships, widespread poverty, social inequity, Islamic extremism, Iranian influence, Saudi financing, overpopulation and illiteracy have absolutely nothing at all to do with the Palestinians and Arab countries' misery, leading to violence and terrorism.

[L@mplighterM]

But things like brutal and corrupt dictatorships, widespread poverty, social inequity, Islamic extremism, Iranian influence, Saudi financing, overpopulation and illiteracy have absolutely nothing at all to do with the Palestinians and Arab countries' misery, leading to violence and terrorism.

Lately poverty has been an excuse for Islamic Fundamentalism and terrorism. I’m certain that their leaders including Arafat himself have plenty of American greenbacks in his piggy bank (courtesy of the US taxpayer).

I firmly believe that the homicide bombers have been/are indoctrinated and brainwashed by their religious leaders and to a large extent come from middle-income families and not from the poorest of poor. There’s every indication that many have been recruited from universities hence not the poor Palestinians.

At the turn of the last century (1900’s) poverty was prevalent throughout the world and it very much existed in the then Palestine. If one was to use the per capita income at that time and adjust it too today’s income it would seem that there would have been more terrorism then.

Wealth in any event is relative if for example everyone in the world was given a million dollars you would in effect have done nothing more than establish a status quo and the excuse for terrorism would continue.

Further it’s in the interest of people like Arafat to shift the blame and point the finger at the Jews and tells his people that they are the cause of all their social ills.

[takeo]

I wish i could write about things in a more philosophical way, but I can't, I'm not a literary talented guy.

"So, if I understand what you are saying, the Palestinians have no established society in a land they claim to hold title to? They have no roots to point to and say, "See, we have been here and oiving in this way for years. We are the society of Area A, we dominate the demographics of Area B, and we are entitled to possess this land as a result." I guess that means that the land of Areas A and B must have an established Israeli culture and society and be land to which they are rightfully entitled. Attention all Palestinians in Areas A and B, "takeo" has proven you have no right to this land. Please gather your things and be out by daybreak tomorrow. Thank you, takeo, for making the resolution so easy. "

They have their own society and their own roots, as the Jews had in the Pale and other jewish settlements during history, but they don't have their own state, and as the jews in the Pale they are completely dependant and at the mercy of an external government and society that doesn't always fits their interests. They are rightfully entitled to the land, but the problem is that the land is occupied by a foreign military power which makes life in Palestinian society more difficult, the two societies, palestinian and israeli, are different, and the Palestinians won't and shouldn't accept the laws of another autority (for which they didn't vote nor recognised) which claims to be the legal owner of the land but isn't according to international standards.



"I live in a rural area divided into Counties. When a motorcycle gang from another county came here and busted up a local tavern, our police pursued them until all 25 were arrested, jailed, and the threat to our county was eliminated. Had it come to a shoot out, our police force would have been authorized to use deadly force to make the county safe for our residents. Had this been on a larger scale, our National Guard (military homeland defense forces) would have been mobilized and those terrorizing our populace would have been stopped, shooting them dead if necessary. Show me where the current operation in Israel is any different, truly different, ot just in your head. "

The difference is that your county and your national guard are legal institutions and dependant of a higher autority, it is a lawfull institution created to remain order in your area and recognised by most of its citizens.
The difference is that the Israeli army is NOT a lawfull institution in the occupied territories because it is an institution representing the israeli people and society, and as we all know gaza and Westbank are NO parts of Israel, the legitimacy of the israeli army in the occupied territories is the same as the legitimacy of the Iraqi army in Kouweit or the german army in France in WWII, NONE. That's a main difference, according to me...



"I would not turn any part of my house over to my two year old grandson either. He has not shown any adult responsibility. He is not worthy of such trust until he can shoe me that he will walk in such trust without my supervision. How long has the PA been around? "

The problem is that the PA is not the grandson of Israel, but the legal owner of the house(occupied territories) which has been robbed by Israel. Israel gave some rooms to the Palestinian people , now it claims back the whole house. The current squatter has been convicted by higher autorities (the UN) to give the house back to the legal owner.



"Based on the messages broadcast by the PA just 8 short months ago (see http://www.adl.org/israel/mosque_sermon3.asp), giving the Palestinians will do nothing to ease tensions, but rather, give them a platform from which to wage war. The "intifada" will continue until the stated purpose of driving Israel into the sea is accomplished. No other solution will be acceptable to those who call the Jews "monkeys and pigs, worshippers of the calf, and idol worshippers." In reality, we are descussing corruption in its most vile form, the corruption of morality by a people whose arrogance is demonstrated each time that they open their mouths and cry "peace, peace" while continuing to bomb bus stops and markets. "

BS
This message may be heard in extremist palestinian circles (comparable to what can be heard in extremist colonisers circles) but not from institutions dependant from the PA. So you say that the Palestinian people (note that we are no longer talking about Arafat alone but you condamn the whole people...) is corrupted because it wants to liberate itself from Israeli occupation. In that case my grandfather was corrupted to fight for the freedom of his country and the life of its jewish citizens during WWII.
The Palestinian people want peace but this will only happen when israel retreats, and if israel is not prepared to stop occupation without pressure... anyway i think the palestinians are making a big mistake by bombing innocent civilians, this is indeed a kind of moral corruption due to their desperate position, as well as the moral corruption of the israeli to hurt civilians because they see no other ways to gain this war.

"When you are done with philosophy, reality will still be here waiting, and Israel will still be in the Land. "

We'll see about that...







"I would have thought that by now that this excuse of "we just can't control our people seems too old and stale to even be mentioned again. "

Arafat for the moment hasn't even controll over his own office.

"For about 10 years now, the Palestinians have had complete control over their citizens, over their government, over their municipal infrastructure, over their legal system, over their judicial system, over their police force, over their educational system, over their welfare services, and many other function of a fully independent state. "

Yes, but only in those tiny islands i was talking about, their means and their possibilities were completely dependant of and limited by Israel.

"During those 10 years of independent day-to-day government, the PA has managed to fully eliminate any political opposition to Arafat, and has managed to impose its brutal and corrupt dictatorship on a population of more than 3 million Palestinians. "

If the political opposition was really eliminated things would be a lot better for average Israeli who are now fearing for hammas, Al-aqsa, Jihad, etc. suicide-bombers who don't seem to be very frightened by the weak PA and Arafat autority. (an autority which never received sufficiant means to ensure controll over its territories)

"Incredibly, though, the Palestinians and their apologists are actually still trying to convince the world that even though Arafat can control every single aspect of the lives of 3 million people, he is having "difficulties" controlling his own militia, who publicly claims responsibility for the mass murder of Israeli civilians. "

Colin Powell seems to think as well that Arafat should gain back controll over his people... meaning that currently he doesn't have controll. the US usually are well informed and usually are no Arafat apologists. Every palestinian knows that the PA doesn't have absolute controll over a "land" that isn't even a land but a collection of isolated islands.

"As usual, the Arabs and their apologists hope that no one will have any idea about the facts, so their ridiculous claims will be believed by a gullible and uninformed audience. "

I presented on this site a lot more facts than most of you...Where are your facts? (please: facts presented by the mossad or the office of the prime minister don't count as such)



"Right, all the Palestinians' problems and all the Arab states' problems, and world hunger and nuclear prolifiration, and global warming and the spread of AIDS and cosmic debris, is all Israel's fault, and especially that of Ariel Sharon. "

No, all are part of an Arab anti-semitic conspiracy to destroy israel.
Seriously, Israel is responsible for the occupation of the palestinian people and thus for the ongoing war and most problems associated with it, as poverty, terrorism, insecurity and much of the regional instability.

"But things like brutal and corrupt dictatorships, widespread poverty, social inequity, Islamic extremism, Iranian influence, Saudi financing, overpopulation and illiteracy have absolutely nothing at all to do with the Palestinians and Arab countries' misery, leading to violence and terrorism."

This are the most serious problems in many Arab countries, in palestine however the israeli occupation is the prime reason why people still live in refugee-camps, have poor education, no jobs, and have no future.

[L@mplighterM]

The difference is that your county and your national guard are legal institutions and dependant of a higher autority, it is a lawfull institution created to remain order in your area and recognised by most of its citizens.
The difference is that the Israeli army is NOT a lawfull institution in the occupied territories because it is an institution representing the israeli people and society, and as we all know gaza and Westbank are NO parts of Israel, the legitimacy of the israeli army in the occupied territories is the same as the legitimacy of the Iraqi army in Kouweit or the german army in France in WWII, NONE. That's a main difference, according to me...

I suppose you'd defend that with a UN resolution?

[JustPat]

takeo:

When the local "red necks" answer like you we call them bigots - that is, those who hold to a position of hatred and prejudice inspite of the facts to the contrary of their opinion. What a shame that someone so intelligent can be so easily and completely deceived.

Point 1:
Until such time that a free Palestinian State is established, Israel is the custodian of the lands in question and thus her laws are the current law of the land. Israel has every moral obligation to ensure the safety and welfare of the general population, be it Arab, Paletinian, Christian, or Jew. Israel is doing what is expected of a State Government in the land for which it is held respoonsible by the International Community. This is the parallel to our National Guard.

Point 2:
My comparison of the PA to my two year old grandson was not acomment about Palestinian heritage, but to PA irresponsibility. When you have a BM in your bed you can either clean up the mess or sleep in it ... or those who are watching out for your welfare can clean it up for you. The PA hasn't been able to take care of the mess, thus Israel is obligated to act.

Point 3:
To cite only those Muslim clerics who speak of a peaceful solution is ludicrious. It is those like the ones on record, who incite the people to violence, that have been willing to sacrifice their own lives and the lives of thousands of inocents, these are the ones that you who are Muslim need to reign in. Failure to do so is to tacitly approve of their call to violence. The blood is then on your hands for not standing for a stop to the violence.

The ball rests squarely in your court. If you truly desire to see a nation that can be called "home" to Palestinians, you must be willing to 1) stop agreeing with, justifying, and promoting the violence, 2) call for a Palestinian leadership that will be willing to work with Israel toward the solution that benefits both peoples, and 3) face your own fears and prejudices with truth.

By the way, if you are so passionate about the future of Palestine and the cause of the poeple, why don't you move there and become a leader in this process. Rumor has it that there are many new openings.

[takeo]

Yes, lomplighter you are starting to know me.

I don't think the Palestinians would ever accept a Jew as a leader of Palestine, and frankly I wouldn't want to be in the current position of Arafat now.


Israel isn't the legal custodian of the Palestinian people because no other country in the world recognises the occupation. Yes, Israel, as an occupier, has the duty to observe the Geneva-conventions, but nothing more or nothing less. It can never form a legal autority and the Palestinians can not be forced to recognise this autority. And please stop saying that you are occupying for the benefit and wellfare of the Palestinians themselves or that the Palestinians are madmen or little children not able to care for themselves, they are human beings who, just as the Jewish people, have the will to live independantly in their own country with their own leaders according to their own rules. No single palestinian ever asked Israel to "save" them.
And about the mess they made in Israel, as long as israel occupies the occupied territories and refuse to observe the un-resolutions concerning the refugees one can say that the palestinians have every right to hurt Israel in a war (not civilians of course, but in this matter Sharon isn't any better than the palestinian extremists, and some members of his cabinet openly defend etnic cleansing of all Palestinians...)
You are somewhat right that the Palestinians need to do more to reign in their extremists, but the Palestinian people have been humiliated for years by Israel and have other priorities now than saving innocent civilians... that's the logic of the Middle East unfortunately...
By the way the israeli people has the obligation as well to reign in their extremists, if not they are somewhat coresponsible for the ongoing events... where is the peace-movement in Israel, why doesn't Labour left the government already? I'm afraid out of fear, confusion and anger israeli vote for extremists, that's part of the middle eastern mentality as well...

[aid]

Palestinians will accept Takeo as their leader.

He is more an extremist than Hamas, and is of just as brilliant mind as they are.

So why not?

Takeo, I look at you as a leader of terrorists already.